[01:02] <pochu> good night, and thanks a lot!
[05:34] <psymon101> howdy
[05:45] <troy_s> greets psymon101
[05:45] <troy_s> I just forwarded that work off to the team
[05:45] <psymon101> Hey Troy
[05:45] <psymon101> aah
[05:45] <psymon101> cool
[05:45] <psymon101> I am such a dope at Inkscape
[05:45] <psymon101> just started
[05:45] <psymon101> Illustrator kid me
[05:45] <psymon101> :)
[05:46] <troy_s> i actually prefer much of inkscape's interface -- the realtime nature of it is quite nice
[05:46] <psymon101> yes, thats fantastic!
[05:47] <troy_s> It is quite incredible what you can do with it if you give it a shot really.
[05:47] <psymon101> you did that?
[05:47] <psymon101> v.excelllent
[05:47] <troy_s> well ... no because it isn't finished...
[05:47] <troy_s> but yes...
[05:47] <troy_s> it's my daughter.
[05:48] <psymon101> you sir are talented
[05:48] <troy_s> its inkscape.
[05:49] <psymon101> its bloody good whatever did it:)
[05:50] <troy_s> getting finished with the other projects on the go is a bit tricky
[05:50] <troy_s> it was actually quite a rapid job... but the hair is a pain in the ass.
[05:50] <psymon101> I can relate.
[05:50] <troy_s> etc.
[05:50] <psymon101> its very nice, perfect shading.
[05:51] <psymon101> skin tones etc
[05:51] <troy_s> anyways... now you can crank something out for the artwork identity on launchpad.
[05:51] <troy_s> :)
[05:51] <psymon101> oh?
[05:51] <psymon101> :)
[05:52] <psymon101> a logo for the group?
[05:53] <troy_s> well just for launchpad
[05:54] <troy_s> nothing really tremendous... but it needs doing.
[05:54] <troy_s> hell we are at 305 members... time for a change.
[05:54] <yharrow> hi troy
[05:54] <troy_s> (not that we do anything)
[05:54] <troy_s> (nor have any impact)
[05:54] <troy_s> etc.
[05:54] <troy_s> yharrow: LTNS...
[05:54] <troy_s> yharrow: u2 has some updates...
[05:54] <troy_s> yharrow: If you give a flying feck.
[05:54] <yharrow> troy_s: sweet! of course I care
[05:55] <troy_s> yharrow: Although I don't know when you looked last...
[05:55] <troy_s> the wallpaper is coming along... almost alpha
[05:55] <troy_s> gtk stinks and is in the ditch with the exception of the scrollbar pills.
[05:55] <psymon101> troy, "Not that we do anything" "nor have impact"
[05:55] <yharrow> troy_s: I just have had alot of stuff to do what with the party and my father getting admitted to a hospital for heart surgery
[05:55] <psymon101> explain?!
[05:55] <psymon101> :( harrow
[05:56] <yharrow> troy_s: I will definitely take a good look and contribute some as soon as things become stable
[05:56] <yharrow> troy_s: I am going to check out the bzr now
[05:57] <yharrow> troy_s: and yeah it has been a while since we last chatted
[05:57] <troy_s> psymon101: Long story.  There is nothing that the team really does.
[05:58] <troy_s> psymon101: Do a google for Edgy and Artwork
[05:58] <troy_s> psymon101: You will get some idea.
[05:58] <troy_s> psymon101: Ultimately, it is just a lack of 'give a shit' on the part of Ubuntu really.
[05:58] <troy_s> psymon101: Feisty's work was done soley by one fellow -- kwwii -- and it is pretty much as bland as sabdfl likes it.
[05:59] <troy_s> psymon101: So if you are looking for character or like trait -- don't expect it.
[06:00] <troy_s> yharrow: So yes... new wall.  Knocked out another glyph for reload... just slow fleshing out.
[06:00] <troy_s> yharrow: All of the smaller icons need to be glyphs... not this godawful 'icons everywhere'
[06:01] <yharrow> troy_s: what is the difference between a glyph and an icon?
[06:02] <troy_s> yharrow: The glyphs are all identical in form -- an icon is the mix you get in the current menu.
[06:02] <troy_s> so a glyph might be more like a control panel.
[06:02] <troy_s> Design wise, it unifies the apps more.
[06:03] <psymon101>  very important
[06:03] <yharrow> troy_s: I like that Idea, the icons in the start menu were always a little unsettling in their differences. However if you are able to control every icon then I dont think that unification is an issue.
[06:03] <troy_s> i am just not a fan of this trend of the 'icons everywhere'
[06:03] <troy_s> it drives me nuts
[06:04] <troy_s> yharrow: exactly.
[06:04] <troy_s> yharrow: More like instrumentation panel
[06:04] <troy_s> yharrow: Save the more 'elegant' icons for 48x48
[06:04] <troy_s> (which is what hte default folder icon is for example)
[06:04] <troy_s> at hte small size trunk back to glyphs.
[06:05] <yharrow> troy_s: what do you suppose should be the smallest icon possible then?
[06:07] <troy_s> yharrow: I don't mind, but below 48 i think they should be glyphs.
[06:08] <troy_s> yharrow: Have a look in icon-dev to see the quickies (ignore the inking -- just the strokes)
[06:10] <troy_s> yharrow: They aren't terribly strong yet, but you will hopefully get the idea.
[06:10] <troy_s> yharrow: The folder feels about right -- perhaps some ink work on the colour.
[06:11] <yharrow> troy_s: I am going through the logs to find the url of the bzr download
[06:14] <troy_s> yharrow:  No need
[06:14] <troy_s> yharrow: All that info is in launchpad... go to the product and click 'CODE'
[06:14] <troy_s> tab
[06:15] <yharrow> cool
[06:16] <yharrow> that is good to know
[06:16] <yharrow> :)
[06:16] <troy_s> yharrow: Yes... you can get all the info through launchpad... even browse it now too.
[06:19] <yharrow> troy_s: Ubuntu is really evolving at an amazing rate
[06:21] <troy_s> ?
[06:21] <yharrow> troy_s: I just noticed that membership of our team is increasing
[06:21] <troy_s> Yes... 305
[06:21] <troy_s> At the start of Edgy the team had exactly 13 members iirc.
[06:21] <yharrow> wow!
[06:21] <psymon101> good sign
[06:21] <yharrow> yeah
[06:22] <yharrow> troy_s: also the U2 team is getting larger
[06:25] <troy_s> yharrow: It seems there are quite a few interested folks actually... but ultimately it requires more people who can work.
[06:25] <troy_s> psymon101: It is only a good sign if we have the talent, dedication, education, etc.
[06:26] <troy_s> psymon101: Otherwise it is just two clicks really.
[06:26] <troy_s> :)
[06:26] <troy_s> psymon101: Which is why getting things done in the community is important.
[06:26] <psymon101> it seems that the kwii chap has the reigns
[06:27] <psymon101> not a problem though
[06:27] <psymon101> more the contribution
[06:27] <psymon101> more the relaxing load on them
[06:27] <troy_s> yharrow: kwwii has been staying employed with Canonical since Edgy.
[06:27] <yharrow> troy_s: well I definitely agree that having contributing members is better then having non contributing members but I also beleive the more members the higher there is a chance that someone will contribute as long as there is someone moderating the contributions  and encouraging people along
[06:27] <psymon101> more direction the community can achieve
[06:27] <troy_s> yharrow: Agree.
[06:27] <troy_s> 100%
[06:27] <troy_s> yharrow: It takes time too... there wasn't much there in the early going.  Just figments of imagination.
[06:28] <troy_s> psymon101: I think that most of the issues I have with Ubuntu will likely not ever be dealt with... so I don't really worry about it.
[06:28] <troy_s> psymon101: I still force myself to stay committed, but the rest is simply frustrating.
[06:28] <yharrow> troy_s: so rather then go ahead and deny people who dont appear to be educated/commited enough. I would just accept anyone who has reasonable knowledge in art and is even moderately commited to our cause
[06:28] <troy_s> yharrow: I do.
[06:29] <troy_s> yharrow: I give everyone who asks the chance...
[06:29] <yharrow> troy_s: oh ok. I guess I just misunderstood then
[06:29] <yharrow> :D
[06:29] <troy_s> yharrow: In the end though, it is a tough thing...
[06:29] <troy_s> yharrow: People tend to like to produce and carry on down their paths... which makes it difficult when someone has invested time.
[06:30] <troy_s> yharrow: It is why I am quite a believer in docs and roughs.
[06:30] <troy_s> because you can rough something and get the direction across without investing hardly any time.
[06:30] <yharrow> troy_s: do you make it clear to people who get involved that this is not a democracy?
[06:30] <yharrow> troy_s: I mean in a nice way of course
[06:30] <troy_s> yharrow: I actually would prefer it to be.
[06:30] <troy_s> yharrow: To discuss and develop process.
[06:30] <yharrow> troy_s:  it helps when we explain why it must be controlled to some extent
[06:31] <troy_s> yharrow: I have always believed that the most influential work is a byproduct of process -- not a focus on destination.
[06:31] <troy_s> yharrow: The trick is to create an environment where people can fail and have a good time doing it.
[06:31] <troy_s> yharrow: You have to be willing to put things out there even if it stinks.
[06:31] <yharrow> yeah, I know what you mean. its difficult to do
[06:31] <troy_s> yharrow: I do it all the time... ;)
[06:32] <yharrow> troy_s: I agree
[06:32] <troy_s> yharrow: You put the idea out there, and if someone with a mature eye looks at something, they might be able to glean what you saw as 'interesting' and put it in the proper direction.
[06:32] <troy_s> for example, someone posted an interface idea... it was a completely CRUDE sketch
[06:33] <troy_s> I thought at the time that it was out of scope, but really I think it is quite brilliant.
[06:33] <troy_s> I have mulled it over for quite some time.
[06:33] <troy_s> a simple floater that is very much like a remote control -- no panel etc.
[06:33] <troy_s> controlling the three loose categories of your computer.
[06:33] <troy_s> i'll see if i can find the link
[06:35] <osymon101> damn the firefox killing my system:(
[06:39] <troy_s> psymon101: That's no good.
[06:39] <psymon101> :(
[06:41] <troy_s> yharrow: That idea of a VERY simple 'television remote control' sort of lurked in my head.
[06:41] <troy_s> Further it is entirely doable in java.
[06:41] <troy_s> erk
[06:41] <troy_s> !
[06:41] <troy_s> python
[06:41] <troy_s> i meant to say
[06:42] <troy_s> psymon101: Hopefully you'll manage to keep generating bits for the people that need them
[06:42] <psymon101> yeah...
[06:42] <psymon101> i usually can spare an hour or 2 at night
[06:42] <psymon101> depending on my work situation
[06:45] <troy_s> where do you work?
[06:45] <troy_s> (feel free to ignore that if you aren't comfortable)
[06:49] <psymon101> sorry
[06:50] <psymon101> I was in firefox
[06:50] <psymon101> I run a VoIP PBX company
[06:50] <troy_s> somethign exchange?
[06:51] <psymon101> its really a phone system:)
[06:51] <psymon101> VoIP softswtch
[06:51] <psymon101> built on Asterisk
[06:51] <psymon101> we kill Cisco etc... on price alone
[06:51] <psymon101> just trying to make a name for ourselves.
[06:52] <psymon101> and what do you do if you dont mind me asking?:)
[06:53] <troy_s> Erk
[06:53] <troy_s> Sorry... I need to run
[06:53] <psymon101> lol
[06:53] <psymon101> np!:)
[06:53] <psymon101> take care
[06:53] <troy_s> I work mostly full time in the Motion Picture industry
[06:53] <psymon101> check ya later.
[06:53] <psymon101> Sweet!
[06:53] <troy_s> i do some contract work sometimes outside for various bits (like video game companies)
[06:53] <psymon101> very intrestin!
[06:54] <troy_s> I shoot music videos when people ask me to photograph stuffs...
[06:54] <troy_s> and ...
[06:54] <troy_s> probably some other crappy arsty fartsy creative crap in there.
[06:54] <psymon101> lol!
[06:54] <troy_s> oh yeah... wait patiently while a trilogy of novels works through the system to getting greenlit to be shot.
[06:54] <psymon101> that cool though

[06:55] <psymon101> :)
[06:57] <troy_s> don't envy
[06:57] <troy_s> lol
[06:57] <troy_s> it is pretty bunk
[06:57] <psymon101> its cool!:)
[06:57] <psymon101> ok mate
[06:57] <troy_s> on the whole... right now i am thinking more and more about running my own company for design / art / creative crap.
[06:57] <troy_s> lol
[06:58] <troy_s> chat soon
[06:58] <psymon101> I have to go to bed:(
[06:58] <troy_s> send me an email
[06:58] <yharrow> ok later
[06:58] <psymon101> shall do!
[06:58] <psymon101> seeya... own company is hard but rewarding:)
[06:58] <psymon101> seeya!
[11:23] <lapo> hi
[01:28] <pochu> troy_s: I love your icon, but it has no relation with ubuntu, aparently
[01:28] <pochu> what do you think about changing the green liquid to Ubuntu orange?
[01:29] <pochu> or if you have any other idea... :)
[05:52] <nysosym> hi there :)
[05:53] <pochu> hey nysosym
[05:54] <nysosym> hi pochu, how are u?
[05:54] <pochu> fine, thanks! :)
[05:54] <nysosym> good :)
[06:13] <troy_s> greetings pochu
[06:13] <pochu> hey troy_s!
[06:14] <troy_s> pochu: Give me a second
[06:15] <pochu> sure :)
[06:15] <troy_s> Generally I am not for branding the hell out of everything -- the Circle of Friends and the Ubuntu font is nastily overused...
[06:15] <troy_s> That said... I'll try somethin
[06:16] <pochu> thanks a lot!
[06:16] <pochu> maybe just make the "water" orange?
[06:18] <troy_s> we were always taught 'if you hear the sound of a dog barking, you don't need to show a dog barking'
[06:18] <troy_s> which is rougly what i was suggesting... context tells you that it is for ubuntu
[06:18] <troy_s> it is the ubuntu iso testing team :0
[06:18] <troy_s> pochu: Can you dcc accept that file?
[06:18] <troy_s> pochu: I have no idea how to make it smaller... probably just plop the CoF to the side of it.
[06:21] <troy_s> pochu: Eek.. that's bunked... try this one.
[06:23] <pochu> troy_s: got it
[06:23] <pochu> troy_s: what do you think about making the liquid orange?
[06:25] <troy_s> pochu: Sure... we can try that...
[06:25] <troy_s> let me pull the circle of friends off...
[06:25] <troy_s> I think it works far better without any of that on it...
[06:26] <pochu> :)
[06:28] <troy_s> pochu: catch this one.
[06:29] <troy_s> Is that what you were hoping for?
[06:29] <rankin> hello
[06:30] <pochu> hi rankin
[06:30] <pochu> troy_s: yeah! :)
[06:30] <pochu> that should work :)
[06:30] <troy_s> hold on then
[06:30] <troy_s> pochu: Let me give it a bit more touching...
[06:30] <troy_s> pochu: For the smaller icons, I think you are probably reduced to only the flask in a simpler format...
[06:31] <troy_s> 192, 64, and 14 were the sizes?
[06:32] <pochu> let me see
[06:32] <pochu> troy_s: yep!
[06:33] <rankin> i need some help
[06:33] <rankin> i just joined Ubuntu Art
[06:33] <pochu> welcome aboard!
[06:33] <rankin> ty
[06:34] <pochu> (though I'm not aboard hehe)
[06:34] <rankin> but i think i understand what we do, but i dont in a way!
[06:34] <troy_s> rankin: Currently we don't really do anything.  Our primary focus is community related elements.
[06:34] <troy_s> rankin: Develop designs, help out others, etc.
[06:35] <rankin> ok
[06:35] <troy_s> rankin: That said, there are plenty of projects that would love to have your abilities.
[06:35] <rankin> ok, yes i have actually helped in designing operating system funtions, and more. and designs
[06:38] <rankin> wait, is Ubuntu Art. A Project team
[06:39] <troy_s> pochu: Bear with me, sorry friend.
[06:39] <troy_s> pochu: Trying to get those sizes for you.
[06:41] <troy_s> rankin: Did you get my private message?
[06:41] <Zie> no
[06:42] <Zie> im Rankin
[06:42] <troy_s> Zie: you need to register your nickname with nickserv
[06:42] <troy_s> can you do that?
[06:42] <Zie> i allready have
[06:42] <troy_s> type /msg nickserv help
[06:42] <troy_s> as what ?
[06:42] <troy_s> zie?
[06:42] <troy_s> or rankin?
[06:42] <Zie> yes
[06:42] <troy_s> zie?
[06:42] <Zie> i have 2 nicknames
[06:42] <troy_s> Are they both regged?
[06:42] <Zie> yes
[06:43] <Zie> no
[06:43] <Zie> hold on
[06:43] <Zie> try again
[06:44] <Zie> wait i see it troy
[06:45] <Zie> I_PERSONALLY wants my help?
[06:46] <troy_s> yes
[06:47] <Zie> how do i go about helping him
[06:48] <troy_s> lord
[06:48] <Zie> hold on
[06:49] <troy_s> zie -- join #zies
[06:52] <Zie> ok look im new, this guy wants me to help him out, well he needs to email me
[06:52] <troy_s> you aren't very good with irc are you?
[06:52] <troy_s> lol
[06:52] <troy_s> Zie -- join #zies
[06:52] <Zie> no not irc
[06:53] <troy_s> pochu: I am emailing you the bits now
[06:53] <troy_s> there are six of them
[06:56] <troy_s> Ok I must run now... sorry guys.
[06:56] <troy_s> pochu: Check your email.
[06:57] <Zie> bye
[06:59] <pochu> troy_s: looking :)
[07:00] <troy_s> pochu: The 14 x 14 is obviously not a huge size so it might need some rework.
[07:00] <troy_s> Zie: Email me
[07:01] <pochu> troy_s: wow, it's cool! :)
[07:01] <pochu> though the 14x14 is a little small, hehe :)
[07:01] <troy_s> pochu: There aren't a lot of pixels there...
[07:01] <troy_s> pochu: My thinking is simply put the flask in it.
[07:02] <troy_s> pochu: But again, that is a quick fix.
[07:02] <troy_s> pochu: If you want... I can fuddle with it a little more in that super small size when I get back
[07:03] <pochu> sure, thanks :)
[07:03] <troy_s> Zie: Is your email andyrankin@gmail.com
[07:03] <troy_s> ?
[07:03] <pochu> yeah, maybe an orange flask
[07:05] <troy_s> yes
[07:54] <heno> hey troy_s, lovely ISO testing image :)
[07:55] <pochu> so ATM, we have three +1, and no -1 or +0 :)
[07:55] <pochu> and I'm pretty sure it will be a huge +1! :)
[07:55] <heno> hm, it seems https://www.stgraber.org/ubuntu/isotesting/ is down
[07:56] <heno> it would be great to get some better artwork there too
[07:56] <pochu> heno: refresh now
[07:57] <pochu> stgraber says he's just rebooted the server
[07:58] <heno> glad he didn't do that last week
[07:58] <pochu> yeah :)
[09:59] <troy_s> heno:  tnx.  rather quick though.
[09:59] <troy_s> pochu: I'll try to fix up the 14 pixel 'why bother' size that they have put on launchpad.
[10:00] <pochu> hehe
[10:00] <pochu> thanks :)
[10:00] <pochu> btw, there are some icons with 16x16
[10:00] <pochu> but they're not "official" then :)
[10:01] <troy_s> pochu: I only did that 14 rather quickly.
[10:02] <troy_s> pochu: It could probably be a little more legible at that size.
[10:02] <pochu> yeah
[10:03] <pochu> maybe remove the cd inside the flask
[10:03] <troy_s> again, 14x14 is a size that some Gnome idiot would pick.
[10:03] <troy_s> pochu: Yes...
[10:03] <troy_s> the 14x14 is really a silly size.
[10:03] <pochu> heh
[10:03] <pochu> tell that in #launchpad ;)
[10:04] <kwwii> I already told them
[10:04] <kwwii> and they basically ignored me
[10:06] <troy_s> kwwii: There's a shocker
[10:06] <kwwii> ;-)
[10:06] <troy_s> kwwii: Right up there with the rather brilliant 'Hey let's use 22 pixel icons in the menus!'
[10:07] <troy_s> How about the era of crappy vision that is going to beset all of us old feckers.
[10:07] <kwwii> feisty should be using 24x24 again
[10:07] <troy_s> kwwii: AS a MINIMUM!
[10:07] <troy_s> kwwii: Make the argument that MAINSTREAM users want bigger icons
[10:08] <kwwii> troy_s: well, the menus get really long using anything bigger than 24x24
[10:08] <troy_s> it allows for a far superior presentation at 36pixels say, and therefore the immersion is bigger.
[10:08] <troy_s> kwwii: Yes... a sign that Miller's seminal work on 7 plus or minus 2 is relevant
[10:08] <troy_s> kwwii: The menu should have FIVE elements at root at most as per Miller
[10:08] <troy_s> then the sizes aren't a problem.
[10:08] <troy_s> and in fact, the presentation goes _way_ up.
[10:08] <kwwii> right, but then the submenus are nasty
[10:09] <troy_s> Submenus should be restricted to 7+/-2 as well.
[10:09] <troy_s> if you aren't doing that
[10:09] <troy_s> you aren't classifying enough.
[10:09] <troy_s> arguably of course...
[10:09] <troy_s> but Miller's work is pretty authoritative.
[10:09] <troy_s> And in the end, to the NEW MAINSTREAM user, they don't give a feck
[10:09] <troy_s> The immersion goes way way up.
[10:10] <kwwii> I agree with that...the system--> preferences menu is nasty
[10:10] <troy_s> Totally!
[10:10] <troy_s> Subdivide and conquer
[10:10] <troy_s> It simply goes against the 'minimum system requirements' as laid out by Miller et al of the human brain.
[10:11] <troy_s> Again, you don't dare suggest that the developers who are very legacy oriented.
[10:11] <kwwii> lol, yeah
[10:11] <troy_s> kwwii: Just have a look at Blender's menus and you have a very real indication that the era of menus is legacy and should be either REWORKED or THROWN OUT.
[10:12] <troy_s> kwwii: You'll be having nightmares after that experience.
[10:12] <kwwii> hehe, that is one of the reasons that I do not like using blender
[10:12] <troy_s> kwwii: Although come to think of it, Photoshop is NO better (or any Adobe product)
[10:12] <troy_s> menus simply are done.
[10:12] <kwwii> defnitely
[10:12] <troy_s> It was great in the dark ages when people had 'New!' 'Save' and 'Exit'
[10:12] <troy_s> lol
[10:13] <troy_s> We really need to push the tried and true formal research on the issue into the design light.
[10:13] <troy_s> Miller was a _brilliant_ guy.
[10:13] <kwwii> the problem is that the devs make their programs like swiss army knives and not like kitchen machines
[10:13] <troy_s> Although it seems everyone is obsessed with Fitt's law (probably because that is the ONLY thing they know) which turns an operating system into some form of 'video game' where reaction time is all that matters.
[10:14] <troy_s> kwwii: I always thought one of the great strengths of unix mentality is that you end up with VERY small programs and libraries that do their particular jobs well...
[10:14] <troy_s> all of that can easily be hidden to the end user.
[10:14] <troy_s> Ubuntu just is doing a pathetic job at it.
[10:14] <kwwii> troy_s: yeah, me too
[10:14] <troy_s> (Ubuntu et al really)
[10:14] <kwwii> perhaps we should just go back to a CLI
[10:14] <troy_s> kwwii: You know what -- troubleshooting someone else's machine over the phone is FAR easier via the CLI.
[10:14] <troy_s> sadly.
[10:14] <troy_s> because the GUI has run amok
[10:15] <kwwii> yepp
[10:15] <troy_s> and you end up needing to communicate in latitude and longitude coordinates to click.
[10:15] <troy_s> lol
[10:15] <kwwii> ;-)
[10:15] <troy_s> The operating system that will be the 'next big thing' will be the one that first starts to rethink everything we know.
[10:16] <troy_s> Much like Xerox did before their landmark work got appropriated.
[10:16] <kwwii> hehe, yeah
[10:16] <kwwii> at the time they thought they would earn more money long-term selling copiers
[10:17] <troy_s> "Yep... probably won't be much money in our mouse that we developed.  Or that GUI.  That network is probably useless.  Who the hell would want to use email?'
[10:17] <troy_s> lol
[10:19] <kwwii> exactly...one of the biggest mistakes of the century
[10:19] <kwwii> man, I am not the biggest fan of developer meetings
[10:19] <troy_s> I don't know if it was a mistake so much as they didn't think someone would rip them off.
[10:19] <troy_s> I think they knew it was relevant...
[10:19] <troy_s> LOL
[10:20] <kwwii> but if you get paid to go them it makes it a bit easier
[10:20] <kwwii> and when it is over I am officialy on vacation until the UDS
[10:20] <troy_s> Well that's a positive.
[10:21] <troy_s> Did you manage to drum up some other art and design folks for the UDS?
[10:21] <troy_s> I know of a few people that were contacted by the powers that be.
[10:21] <kwwii> I talked to lapo about showing up
[10:21] <kwwii> really? that is cool
[10:21] <troy_s> But I don't think any of them took the offer :)
[10:21] <kwwii> I mentioned that I did not think anyone was coming and got no response
[10:21] <troy_s> Yes... rather insulting on some level too as a matter of circumstance.
[10:21] <kwwii> next time I will take care of it myself
[10:21] <kwwii> I can imagine
[10:22] <troy_s> By insulting I mean the folks that were contacted have pretty much already expressed their dismay with the situation.
[10:22] <troy_s> And fundamentally, _nothing_ has changed.
[10:22] <kwwii> nope, not much has changed yet
[10:22] <troy_s> (Obviously _nothing_ to do with you kwwii -- talking about the bigger picture as to where a design / art team fits into the structure)
[10:23] <troy_s> Really, you could probably roll that into the Design / Art / Marketing side of things.
[10:23] <kwwii> right, and we have a long way to go on really changing things
[10:23] <troy_s> "Entity Management"
[10:23] <troy_s> Well I get this fundamental notion that people are fearful of clearly stating a target for the default distribution.
[10:23] <troy_s> When in fact, it would be the _best_ thing we could do.  We could probably extend it into accessibility derived presentations, cultural presentations, 'expert user' presentations.
[10:23] <troy_s> Etc.
[10:24] <troy_s> Corporate presentations... etc.
[10:24] <troy_s> It would be quite ground breaking if you had a stub header in Ubiquity that figured out what you were in terms of audience.
[10:24] <troy_s> And custom fit one of the 'overlays' to it.
[10:24] <kwwii> hehe, no doubt
[10:25] <troy_s> For example, the home user who has a desktop in their living room wants something different from a bank manager rolling out Ubuntu on 20 service stations.
[10:25] <kwwii> although I am not sure if the current users are a good description of our target user group
[10:25] <troy_s> HELL NO
[10:25] <troy_s> But the users we are LOSING
[10:25] <troy_s> are the ones that _are_
[10:25] <troy_s> The ones who FINALLY give Free Software a try and are driven away from their experience.
[10:25] <troy_s> etc.
[10:26] <kwwii> true
[10:26] <troy_s> In fact, one could argue that the people who are MOST capable to change the way their systems look
[10:26] <troy_s> are also the most vocal about NOT changing things for others.
[10:26] <kwwii> right
[10:26] <troy_s> which is _extremely_ selfish.
[10:26] <troy_s> wow...
[10:27] <troy_s> have you been paying attention to your launchpad notifications kwwii?
[10:27] <troy_s> There are so many folks joining the team it is frightening.
[10:27] <kwwii> troy_s: yeah, I set up an extra email filter just for that
[10:27] <kwwii> :p
[10:27] <troy_s> kwwii: I have filters for just about everyting
[10:27] <troy_s> lol
[10:44] <kwwii> w00t! meeting over..../me --> vacation!
[10:45] <kwwii> night all