=== Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [01:14] troy_s: I'm off now, too late here [01:14] thanks again!! [01:14] and feel free to follow up my last mail regarding the iso tracker ;) === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === psymon101 [n=sdsdsd@71-10-137-92.dhcp.aldl.mi.charter.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === yharrow_mobile [n=sysadmin@unaffiliated/yharrow] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === yharrow_mobile [n=sysadmin@unaffiliated/yharrow] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === klepas [n=klepas@ppp167-251-133.static.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === andreasn [n=andreas@h101n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [10:08] troy_s: you mean like this? :D http://www.gnome.org/~nigeltao/foxybuntu/foxybuntu-mock0.gif === andreasn [n=andreas@h101n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === lapo [n=lapo@host238-223-static.40-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [12:44] hi === bersace [n=bersace@81.185.32.107] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === `23meg [n=m@unaffiliated/23meg/x-000000001] has left #ubuntu-artwork ["Leaving"] === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === klepas [n=klepas@60-242-104-119.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === yharrow_mobile [n=sysadmin@unaffiliated/yharrow] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === meatballhat [n=dbuch@ubuntu/member/meatballhat] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === coz_ [n=coz_@pool-68-162-178-238.pitt.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [04:45] does anyone know of an easy way to create and edit themes/styles for gtk? [06:03] nothlit sorry don't quite get what you mean [06:03] yharrow: There isn't one [06:04] yharrow: Get out your text edior [06:04] yharrow: And the pixmap engine [06:04] troy_s: hmm its a gif animation of this awesome ui :P [06:05] nothlit: oh... [06:05] nothlit: it still looks a little panel based. [06:05] let me look again [06:05] nothlit: And web based [06:05] troy_s: i saw what you said about colors on the mailing list, why don't you come up with a mock pallete? [06:06] nothlit: !? [06:06] nothlit: For Ubuntu? [06:06] troy_s: oh man!. :P [06:06] troy_s: yeah :P [06:06] yharrow: It's deadly easy actually [06:06] deadly?? [06:06] :P [06:06] isn't the pixmap engine a little buggy @ some things? [06:06] nothlit: It isn't possible. sabdfl doesn't understand about anything other than monochrome. === abdullah_ [n=abdullah@p57b5ffce.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [06:06] troy_s: how does the picmap engine work? [06:06] nothlit: Not at all in my experiene so far. [06:07] pixmap* [06:07] nothlit: The problem with trying to retrofit a palette is that it doesn't work... [06:07] yharrow: it puts together pieces of images to create ui elements [06:07] hi @ all [06:07] nothlit: You simply override certain 'classes' and it uses your images to draw them [06:07] i use kubuntu. how to change the cursor? [06:07] abdullah_: xcursorgen [06:08] troy_s: well each release would have a different color theme anyways, i wouldn't see why you couldn't come up with a different mood for every release [06:08] nothlit: I would agree... [06:08] nothlit: That is far too art and design thinking. [06:08] nothlit: There isn't a chance of that happening. [06:08] nothlit: So embrace the completely blah middle grey === shek [n=simontan@83-71-62-11.b-ras1.srl.dublin.eircom.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [06:08] thats unfortunate [06:08] nothlit: sabdfl just doesn't get it. [06:08] *test [06:08] nothlit: In fact, _no_ one in Ubuntu does. [06:09] it does not work :-( [06:09] nothlit: I wouldn't go that far actually -- there are some really good folks [06:09] Hi all [06:09] abdullah_: If you use it correctly it does [06:09] ;) [06:09] and how to use? [06:09] nothlit: and some are heavily interested in pushing Ubuntu art and design [06:09] abdullah_: google or man xcursorgen [06:09] you can probably change the cursor from kcontrol [06:10] nothlit: But unfortunately, there are some that continue to push 'status quo' [06:10] i used update-alternatives --config x-cursor-theme [06:10] or put it in your ~/.Xresources [06:10] abdullah_: Is this a predefined theme or your custom one? [06:10] but this change only in the kdm the cursor [06:11] a debian package. crystal === shek is now known as shek_tang [06:12] use the control center in kde. choose the mouse (under peripherals), and choose the cursor theme tab [06:12] i used apt-get install crystalcursors [06:13] troy_s: i look at launchpad, and i don't see many specs :( [06:14] THX [06:14] nothlit: It's cooked. We tried to get art and design airborn during Edgy. [06:15] nothlit: We had 13 total launchpad members and not a spec of interest really. [06:15] nothlit: Nonetheless getting a working process in place was critical, and sab simply didn't participate at _all_ despite having official checkpoints driven throughout the phase driven process. [06:16] nothlit: And looking back to revisionist palettizing -- one of the extremely 'clever' dollar shop clerks turned marketing experts suggested that I simply 'combine all the colours' and call it the official palette. [06:16] nothlit: Which gives you an idea as to the expertise level. [06:17] troy_s: and everybody shared that opinion? [06:18] nothlit: What opinion do you refer to? [06:19] troy_s: speccing is surelly important you always have to remember that you're not in a corporate where there's people payed to do the work [06:19] let me rephrase: All of the nonartists preferred that mindset/method and were resistant to change or extra work? [06:20] lapo: That is irrelevant as I have been exposed to enough people to accomplish the work. [06:20] troy_s: you work with people who may have no experience at all and that do the work because they like to, and if you spec something they're not interested in they will not work for it [06:20] lapo: Then they shouldn't be doing it. [06:20] so everything is kinda difficult [06:20] lapo: Not at all... [06:20] troy_s: for the result you had I think it is :-) [06:21] lapo: Either learn a fashion to construct a presentation based on researched and solid design principles. [06:21] lapo: Well considering that the 'client' opted out of _every_ interaction along the path... considering that we had 13 members to start... no process... etc. [06:21] All of that takes _time_. [06:21] Having done it once or twice in my life. [06:21] troy_s: yep, that' another big problem [06:22] It simply takes time and dedication to sticking to a process. [06:22] hey all, i m pretty new to ubuntu but i am loving it. I've joined the artwork team, where can i see the list of "project" that has to be done etc? [06:22] lapo: And sadly the halfassed result by the end of all that STILL fills my box up with mail and STILL gets chundered on about on the forums. [06:23] lapo: So considering a sub optimal execution for reasons that should be obvious, I would argue that the entire effort was heading in the right direction. [06:23] shek_tang: There aren't any. [06:24] nothlit: I think it comes down to a _fundamental lack_ of educated folks on the scene. [06:24] nothlit: There is too much 'status quo' [06:24] troy_s: Ive been playing with KDE all day [06:24] nothlit: And not enough think it through. [06:24] yharrow: poor you. [06:24] :) [06:24] ahh [06:24] troy_s, so..what can i help out? [06:24] yharrow: sorry couldn't resist... it is ok. [06:25] shek_tang: I would look to the many people / groups of the community efforts that require help. [06:25] troy_s: the entire effort is *RIGHT* and in the *RIGHT* direction imho [06:25] troy_s: on the contrary, kde has simple tools that I needed that Gnome just could not or would offer [06:25] or would not* [06:25] shek_tang: Many of them would probably love to have you on board [06:25] lapo: Sorry... current? [06:25] uhm? [06:26] well then we need a strong community voice, or an example/mockup that is capable of demonstrating what should be done, to a convincing degree [06:26] lapo: What are you referring to? [06:26] lapo: Feisty? [06:26] troy_s: edgy :-) [06:26] lapo: Eek! [06:26] troy_s: I mean what was tried to achieve [06:26] lapo: Lol... well that's my feeling too. [06:27] lapo: I just don't think we (as lovers of Ubuntu) are willing to choose a target audience. [06:27] lapo: Which is _critical_ [06:27] lapo: If you looked over any of the output that started to grow (remember we had ZERO output prior to edgy really regarding designs) [06:27] troy_s: yeah, but it's kinda impossible [06:27] lapo: We have / had PLENTY of talented folks in the area. [06:27] troy_s: it's easier for specific derivate distros [06:28] lapo: Hell... Who's work was incredible really. [06:28] etc. [06:28] troy_s: sure [06:28] yeah, I think most of the who's work was good [06:28] lapo: Well that's just the think... if Ubuntu is truly a 'distro' then it could command its own identity [06:28] well s/was/is/ [06:28] lapo: I don't think that is the case for something like Gnome. [06:28] lapo: The point is _we are going to make mistakes_ [06:28] ubuntu is more distro-ised in a sense than others [06:29] nothlit: I disagree... [06:29] in that each DE version has its own distinct identity [06:29] nothlit: Oh yes. [06:29] nothlit: Sorry i misunderstood... [06:29] nothlit: Ubuntu clearly strives to knock off MS as per bug 1 [06:29] Launchpad bug 1 in Ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1 [06:29] troy_s: sure, but those choices do not depend on you, me or anybody here :-) [06:29] So if you state that outright [06:30] you MUST start AT LEAST consider some of the very formalized processes to achieving strong communicative design. [06:30] without structure it would be difficult to collaborate and create a unified image [06:30] (by very formalized I mean extremely well known -- almost every one of my design reference books has a similar process in them) [06:30] nothlit: Absolutely. [06:30] out to make morning eggs :) [06:30] (wonderful chat though...) [06:31] nothlit: In the end, it is _that_ process / structure that is important for the first couple of attempts -- the output is completely secondary. [06:32] Have a look at Diana Fong's work (Masters of Fine Arts) for Fedora if you want to see a classic process (based off of her blog) [06:35] nothlit: I still think the biggest chance of seeing a 'change' is to simply organize outside of the structure and create something that generates interest. [06:36] nothlit: And to that end, it is truly in the Free Software spirit [06:37] troy_s: that's the way [06:38] troy_s: anyway to create interest you need to show something first [06:38] troy_s: words and specs alone cannot work [06:38] i think i saw something about that, a community theme that would hopefully lead to official inclusion? [06:38] lapo: Well not if you are presenting for people who have zero idea. [06:38] troy_s: and you need to minimize the work needed to create something nice [06:38] lapo: I managed to set up two entire 'corporate' creative structures with words and paper alone. [06:39] troy_s: yeah, but we are in oss remember that always :-) [06:39] lapo: How much work have you sunk into Tango? I don't know if we can avoid the work part :) [06:39] troy_s: I gathered a lot of interest with a stupid comparative image when tangerine was born [06:39] lapo: Absolutely, but in the end, whether it is corporate or Free Software, the process needs to be similar (in its ability to unify design presentation) [06:40] Tangerine was a great idea... it lost steam though it seems. [06:40] nothlit: I think there are folks who could contribute to a community theme... [06:40] troy_s: yeah, mostly because how did it lost interest in it (me and adreasn) and didn't done anything with it for an year or so [06:41] nothlit: I maintain email with _many_ newer artwork folks who for some reason can't find it in themselves to post to the list... [06:41] nothlit: So I try to keep their encouragement high etc... [06:41] troy_s: I decided to let it bitrot and andreasn did the same [06:41] s/how/who/ [06:42] lapo: I think a _lot_ can be gained by really nailing the cornerstones of an icon set -- being the most highly visible components -- the folder, the 'internet', etc. [06:42] lol bitrot [06:42] good old techrust [06:42] yeah am an old junk :-) [06:42] lol [06:42] lapo: Are you 100% busy with Tango or do you find time to contribute in other areas? [06:43] troy_s: I'm 90% busy with work [06:43] I do very little for tango atm [06:43] lapo: What is your current time sucker? [06:44] troy_s: IT IT IT :-) [06:44] nothlit: The _good_ news is that about 50% of the email I receive now is from people pursuing bachelors levels degrees in art / design. [06:44] lapo: ugh. [06:44] lapo: Waddling off into some dark corner to turn a server on then sit in another dark corner on ssh and admin it? [06:44] troy_s: anyway if you intend to base your design on tango style (which is not an icon theme!!! :-)) I'm all with you [06:45] troy_s: kindoff [06:46] troy_s: one wrong point in fedora artwork for example is the echo theme, they will never achieve a nice integration icon wise with something which is not tango style [06:47] lapo: I think the icons in Fedora are a weak link... the icons need to be more based on an overarching style that is presented in the wallpaper / etc. [06:47] lapo: Probably a weak link across most of the 'sets' [06:47] isn't Human done by this company that did the xp icons as well? [06:48] nothlit: IconFactory [06:48] nothlit: But PROBABLY with some heavy sabdfl input. [06:48] nothlit: the quality of the theme is irrilevant, cause it cannot really cover all the icons used by the application around [06:49] nothlit: considering that most appication have tango style icons, the best approach should be to have a tango style icon theme [06:49] lapo: i'm just wondering if sabdfl and co would be resistant to a replacement theme, depending on their investment [06:49] it doesn't have to be tango icon theme, which is just an example implementation, it can be a brand new theme [06:49] nothlit: Again, I think sabdfl is bloody brilliant -- so given enough work into something and assuming that on some level he can see the validity in it, he would probably do it. [06:50] lapo: There are couple of problems with Tango's style though. [06:50] nothlit: I said the sadbfl he was wasting his money at the time though :-) [06:50] lapo: One -- the palette isn't a real palette. It is more a sampling of colours across a spectrum. [06:50] troy_s: that's enough [06:50] ? [06:50] troy_s: the simpler the guidelines are, the better [06:51] lapo: And what is "Tango" at this evolutionary point? The outline plus ? [06:51] You have made enough of them to know ;) [06:51] What do you do when you start to think of a 'tango' icon? [06:51] troy_s: and looking at all the tango icons around based on that reference palette I think it worked out nicelly [06:51] lapo: No, I am saying that I think the 'tango' style evolved a bit from when jimmac probalby did hte first couple... === andreasn [n=andreas@h101n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [06:51] troy_s: perspective, strokes, palette, lighting mostly [06:51] lapo: So I am wondering what it is. [06:52] troy_s: our guidelines served us well :-) [06:52] right andreasn? :-) [06:52] i think of the strokes, inner highlight, simple design, and the pallete to some degree [06:53] I personally am very fond of Paul Davey's work [06:53] Incredible guy really. [06:53] troy_s: I used to hate the innerstroke, but it's a really important usability part [06:53] s/part/point/ [06:54] lapo: the tango guidelines? it worked well when doing work for ISV's this far [06:54] troy_s: reallt nice artwork, not too good icons though [06:54] troy_s: first of all an icon needs to be clear, if it's even nice it's a bonus point [06:55] I just realilzed why i candy is called eye candy [06:55] eye candy* [06:55] troy_s: and Paul's icons are nice on macosx which uses 32x32 as the smallest size [06:55] lapo: And why does Mac use 32 as smallest? [06:55] lol [06:55] exactly the point [06:56] below about 48 is a complete waste of time in my opinion -- they should be glyphs at that point. [06:56] troy_s: that sort of artwork in smaller sizes will not work, things needs to be as simple as possible [06:56] troy_s: not at all [06:56] Paul Davey? who is that? [06:56] those sizes are legacy [06:56] andreasn: http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/53939809/ [06:56] troy_s: the most important size for an icon in the linux world is 22x22 [06:56] lapo: And that is why it is a backasswards environment [06:57] lapo: That size needs to be banished... [06:57] lapo: The menus need to be 1) simplified to meet Miller's work thesis [06:57] Because if the theme or effects or anything else, were food it would be good enough to eat.. [06:57] troy_s: I can be with you on the fact that we could clean the interface and rationalize a lot of stuff [06:57] interesting illustrations [06:57] and 2) we need to bump u pto a larger icon size as a base -- MINIMUM 32x32 [06:57] troy_s: all the apps out there uses that size, and you can [06:57] troy_s: all the apps out there uses that size and you cannot really change the whole world :-) [06:57] andreasn: He is a very talented artist. [06:57] lapo: Something changes something. [06:58] troy_s: you will never have enough man force :-) [06:58] lapo: So if everyone keeps doing it, it will stay [06:58] its just a stupid size. [06:58] that may not make any sense to you guys [06:58] troy_s: changes in oss are really really difficult, you have to deal with a lot of individualisms [06:58] it is a STUPID validation technique [06:58] right andreasn? :-) [06:58] lapo: Shuttleworth has changed much in about 3 years. [06:58] troy_s: not that much at application level [06:58] but if you look at some themes and think about them as food, you may understand what I mean [06:58] lapo: Its coming. [06:58] lapo: heh, yeah [06:59] yharrow: Precisely. [06:59] troy_s: most of the changes he forcefully introduced (which where really small) where rejected by the community [06:59] troy_s: think about the ubuntu nautilus spatialization "fix" [06:59] for example mac OS theme reminds me of delicios blueberry flavored candy.. If mac were a flavor I would eat it in a second [06:59] yharrow: Back in early 20th century some crazy haired guy said something about everything being relative except the speed of light. [06:59] yharrow: It is more about immersion [07:00] yharrow: You have zero immersion with 22 sized icons that must be learned to understand their meaning [07:00] yharrow: It is completely tripe if someone thinks they are communicating in 22 pixels. [07:00] troy_s: sprinkles count.. [07:00] troy_s: we are communicationg in 22x22 believe me :-) [07:00] yharrow: hell... 48 by 48 is about where you can actually start to draw a representational image to a 'mainstream' user. [07:00] lapo: I couldn't disagree more. [07:00] right andreasn? :-) [07:00] troy_s: designs on sprinkles dont :P [07:01] uhm...I need to copy and paste that sentence :-) === andreasn_ [n=andreas@h101n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [07:02] troy_s: my point is that you don't have to communicate anything but the meaning of the action with icons, what you need to communicate have to be done with other means [07:02] and you have plenty [07:02] an icon need to be clear for the user [07:02] and the icons needs to be consistent with the other [07:02] so we can have a congruent and polished desktop [07:03] you shouldn't really do branding with icons, icons are an important part of the interface which is functional to the scope of the program which uses it [07:04] i think you can do some branding, look @ tangerine [07:05] nothlit: tangerine is just a small subset of icons, that's all the branding you may have [07:05] lapo: I only think that that 22 is a horrible design choice for mainstream operating system users [07:05] nothlit: some small change here and there [07:05] lapo: thats the best sort :) [07:05] troy_s: I think it too, but it widelly used and you cannot really change that [07:06] lapo: again, it will take a higher level of look / feel design to push the point [07:06] troy_s: I also think most of the icons in the UIs are not usefull and should be removed [07:06] for an os, subtle hints would work fine since its so immersive [07:06] lapo: A look / feel that avoids using the stupid 22 by 22 and reorganizes the menus for example. [07:06] troy_s: the mac uses a lot less icons, they do not have icons in the menus for example [07:06] nothlit: Immersion is a VERY tricky level of interaction to achieve. [07:07] lapo: Again, that is because windows started with a few icons in the menus [07:07] stylesheets+svg will be an interesting way to tune looks in the future [07:07] troy_s: all those changes have to be done at application level and are not really possible w/o the author agreement [07:07] troy_s: what frustrates me is that gnome is missing very simple things such as "right click on desktop> sort by name or sort by type" [07:07] lapo: Then people went bonkers with it... [07:07] lapo: Actually the menus and pixel size I think is free to choose in gnome. [07:07] yharrow: uhm? [07:07] lapo: I mean for lining up icons [07:07] yharrow: Cascade could be in there too. [07:08] troy_s: somewhat, I think you don't have exactly the idea on how different our software are eh :-) [07:08] yharrow: desktop is not a directory, just don't keep your files on the desktop ;) [07:08] yharrow: For quick window management. [07:08] I want very much to stick with gnome but they are missing so many simple things. [07:08] yharrow: ah right [07:08] TheSheep: the nautilus desktop icon arrangement is limited though [07:08] lapo: It doesn't really matter if ONE product gets the presentation right, the rest fall into line -- case in point -- look at the Mac [07:09] nothlit: that's because it's added as an afterthought after a lot of bitching from windows users who wanted fileso n the desktop [07:09] troy_s: a lot of ui which looks the same are implemented in different way, doing for example a gtk theme is a lot tricky because you have to consider a lot of hacks for variuos ui pieces implementations [07:09] nautilus is another issue for me too. it doesnt even support tabs! [07:09] nothlit: and it's bad as anything added as an afterthought [07:09] lapo: Yes... there aren't too many of those left though. [07:09] yharrow: lol, gnome HIG is what it is [07:09] troy_s: yeah, but you cannot go and change all the application around yourself [07:09] lapo: I have come across exactly perhaps ONE horribly nasty app set - firefox and thunderbird [07:09] troy_s: good example [07:09] yharrow: spatial browsing is the actual default gnome file browsing method [07:10] lapo: Actually, the beauty of free software is that you can at least change _quite a few bits_ [07:10] nothlit: I think that is a schema [07:10] nothlit: You can change _most_ of that via the schemas [07:10] for default setups [07:10] hmm [07:10] IMHO I think the only reason Mark chose gnome is because we can greatly influence their development. KDE is to large and advanced for us to try and change or cater to our needs [07:10] troy_s: yes, but you need a lot of manpower to do it and you don't have it, and you probably never have [07:10] i'm just saying thats the default gnome, even though ubuntu uses browser mode instead [07:10] yharrow: Let's be realistic about that comment. Mark has enough resources to write a window manager from the ground up. He could have easily weighed in on E or etc... [07:11] lapo: Start small. [07:11] troy_s: the only way to change things in oss is just filling bugs and hope somebody with your same opinion will fix them [07:11] lapo: Again, I believe that if you manage to pull off somewhat of a consistent and 'friendly' to those mainstream users 'base' the rest falls into place. [07:11] yharrow: i think simplicity is a great choice for computer [07:11] troy_s: or you can try to fix it yourself [07:12] troy_s: mark is also a smart man and would never waste money simply creating a window manager from scratch [07:12] troy_s: with the tango guys we are trying to change the various ui, convincing the authors of the apps about stupid icons uses, and believe me it is a LOT difficult [07:12] right andreasn? :-) [07:12] lapo: the best way to change things in oss is submit a patchset/mockups :P [07:12] nothlit: yeah, right, but you have to convince te maintainer they are right, and it is not really obvious [07:13] lapo: hrm, yeah it sometimes is. you can get some trust after a while though [07:13] or fork [07:13] the all powerful fork [07:13] if someone disagrees, take the base and build greater. [07:13] troy_s: that means fork, and fork is usually bad [07:13] bah [07:13] troy_s: heh, and then rejoin if neccessary like beyl and compiz are doing [07:13] troy_s: and if you fork you have to be sure you have a good community and a better maintainer [07:14] troy_s: forking stuff is really something you want to avoif [07:14] fork is the fundamental strength behind natural selection and DNA, how can it be bad? [07:14] avoid [07:14] It pushes the issue [07:14] lapo: just maintain an enhanced branch/patchset for the enthusiasts [07:14] Look what happened with Beryl [07:14] lapo: if its good, it'll prove itself [07:14] nothlit: google for goneme and you'll have an exmple [07:14] example [07:14] I wish more things woudl fork and the code would flow a little more freely. [07:15] troy_s: forks are the last effort [07:15] troy_s: and most of the forks are a waste of time and resources [07:15] one thing where tango is great is limiting the set of verbs available for actions in the ui [07:15] project forks mean confusion. loss of resources, taking sides, etc [07:15] troy_s: think about the famous forks we had [07:15] goneme was a really great all-talk-and-no-hockey project. What does the author of that do these days? I want a hacker imdb :) [07:15] eheh [07:16] troy_s: talking about this gave me an idea. rather then build our Ubun2 theme from the ground up. We can start with the Human theme and replace pieces of it as we develop replacements. [07:16] troy_s: name a fork which worked nicelly apart xorg (which was quite the opposite of a fork tho) [07:17] troy_s: Im talking about the actual files. not neccessarily the design components [07:17] troy_s: I really cannot think about one single fork which worked apart xorg and epiphany which are really corner cases [07:18] yharrow: that would cause a mishmash with no sense of unity or direction [07:18] nothlit: heh, your probably right. === andreasn_ is now known as andreasn [07:20] lapo: both of those became entire shifts, rather than forks where both branches can live successfully [07:21] nothlit: those "forks" where done by the maintainers that's why they worked [07:21] nothlit: there is an alternative to froks -- upstream patches [07:21] because maintaners where unhappy with other devs decision and inamovable positions [07:21] nothlit: most bad interfaces come from lack of knowledge, and corrections would be probably (guessing) accepted [07:21] TheSheep: yep, you can write tons of patches but they have to be accepted [07:22] lapo: accepting is actually just a matter of documenting them well [07:22] TheSheep: not that simple :-) [07:23] lapo: documentation is *never* simple [07:23] TheSheep: especially on ui, dobey wrote a lot of patches for icons "abuse" but he had a lot of diffuculties to get them accepted [07:23] and not all of them are in [07:23] TheSheep: and dobey is a great hacker [07:23] lapo: dobey has kind of a hostile approach, doesn't he? [07:24] TheSheep: yep, that's another problem, but the quality of the code is high [07:24] lapo: good for hacking but not very effective in inter-personal things [07:24] that approach [07:24] TheSheep: you have to have the author/maintainer agree with you, and not all the hackers around are sensible about usability [07:24] or better our interpretation of usability [07:24] lapo: it's even worse [07:25] lapo: everyone assume that usability is simple and that everyine knows about it [07:25] TheSheep: user testing is the only way [07:25] How do you import a pallette into inkscape? [07:25] lapo: so it's more "I know better" [07:25] TheSheep: anyway there are a lot of simple things which are obvious to some and not so to others [07:26] TheSheep: let's use some examples [07:26] yharrow: Put the GPL into the inkscape/palettes dir [07:26] yharrow: Which is different if you use SVN versus repos. [07:26] TheSheep: take baobab, do you think it really need a toolbar? [07:27] lapo: of course not :) [07:27] TheSheep: less unusefull stuff you have the better, this basic principle is difficut to get for application authors [07:27] lapo: Focus group based 'user testing' is the only way [07:27] lapo: that's not good for all kinds of applications, mind you [07:27] lapo: In the end, the people who are giving feedback belong to a given demographic [07:27] TheSheep: synaptic, I think I shouldn't have a mark all button on the toolbar, because it's the default action it should do [07:28] lapo: you have to recognize that there are applications for different user groups [07:28] TheSheep: sure, but less stuff better usability almost always [07:28] lapo: And _that_, is where we all hit the dirt. Without a knowledge of WHO is giving the feedback, you would be failing to apply the research to the given audience. [07:28] TheSheep: sure, but basic usability priciples still applies [07:28] Once again: Audience, Audience, Audience. [07:28] lapo: There is _no_ such thing as a BASIC usability principle. [07:29] it doesn't exist. Its a myth. [07:29] lapo: you'd be surprised how the basics are often overriden by more important but less obvious things [07:29] troy_s: what is the difference? [07:29] yharrow: SVN installs to /usr/share/local/inkscape/palettes [07:29]