[12:21] <auge> night
[01:13] <KalleDK_Lap> rs. 
[01:13] <KalleDK_Lap> 
[01:13] <KalleDK_Lap> Wuhu :p
[02:04] <KalleDK_Lap> !hi ranf
[02:04] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about hi ranf - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[02:41] <ubunt1> someonehere
[02:43] <ubuntu> hehe ubuntu is registered
[02:43] <ubuntu> yestarday it was not.
[02:54] <leninz> this is the curent one http://www.pastebin.ca/460401
[02:56] <jrib> leninz: k, have you installed libglib2.0-dev ?
[02:57] <leninz> I don't see in in the package manager
[02:57] <leninz> I have compiled one though
[02:58] <leninz> I got the glib2.6 source and compiled it
[02:58] <leninz> I just don't know how to make sure it works
[02:58] <jrib> leninz: pkg-config won't pick it up (I think)
[02:58] <jrib> leninz: pastebin your sources.list
[02:59] <leninz> it didin't give me any errors after I ran make install
[03:00] <leninz> http://www.pastebin.ca/460410
[03:02] <leninz> I ran pkg-config --cflags glib-2.0
[03:03] <leninz> and another one too
[03:06] <jrib> leninz: if you don't hilight me, I won't notice you said something
[03:07] <jrib> leninz: what error do you get when you do: sudo apt-get install libglib2.0-dev
[03:09] <leninz> none
[03:10] <jrib> leninz:
[03:10] <jrib> leninz: ah ok, no more errors?
[03:10] <leninz> ok, hold on, let me see if atk will work
[03:11] <leninz> the atk still gives the same error
[03:11] <leninz> says glib is not installed
[03:11] <jrib> leninz: what are you doing with atk?
[03:11] <jrib> atk is in the repos too
[03:12] <leninz> you mean it comes with that package?
[03:12] <jrib> leninz: no, but it's packaged
[03:13] <jrib> !info libatk1.0-0 dapper
[03:13] <ubotu> libatk1.0-0: The ATK accessibility toolkit. In component main, is optional. Version 1.11.4-0ubuntu1 (dapper), package size 69 kB, installed size 188 kB
[03:14] <leninz> ok, so what do I do now, http://www.pastebin.ca/460425 here
[03:14] <leninz> I need GTK
[03:15] <leninz> now
[03:15] <leninz> how do I check if they are installed?
[03:15] <jrib> leninz: this stuff is in the repos, just search for a package with  "lib" "gtk" and "dev" in the name
[03:17] <leninz> so you mean I don't have to compile them?
[03:17] <jrib> leninz: right
[03:18] <jrib> !compiling | leninz
[03:18] <ubotu> leninz: Compiling software from source? Read the tips at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompilingSoftware (But remember to search for pre-built !packages first: not all !repositories are enabled by default!)
[03:18] <jrib> that might help too
[03:19] <leninz> 1. How do I do it? 2. what about cairo ?
[03:19] <jrib> leninz: how do you do what?
[03:19] <leninz> search the packages
[03:19] <jrib> !apt | leninz
[03:19] <ubotu> leninz: APT is the Advanced Package Tool, which together with dpkg forms the basic Ubuntu package management toolkit. Short apt-get manual: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AptGetHowto - Also see !Synaptic (Gnome) or !Adept (KDE)
[03:19] <jrib> leninz: basically, you can do this:  apt-cache search foo bar
[03:20] <jrib> and it will search package descriptions and names for "foo" and "bar"
[03:20] <jrib> leninz: or you can search just names like this:  apt-cache search -n foo bar
[03:20] <leninz> yes, thank you, let me try to install all that, I'll get back to you in  a while
[03:24] <ubuntu> what is this
[03:25] <jrib> ubuntu: welcome
[03:25] <ubuntu> jrib thanks i i'm all day here.
[03:26] <jrib> ubuntu: ah, well then you know that classes take place here (like the ones for OpenWeek).  When that's not happening, some helpers from #ubuntu like to use the channel to help users in a place with less traffic than #ubuntu
[03:28] <ubuntu> ???
[03:28] <ubuntu> from ubuntu i'm banned
[04:58] <leninz> I'm back with some more errors
[04:58] <leninz> http://www.pastebin.ca/460534
[04:59] <leninz> I installed libgtk2.0-dev
[05:03] <leninz> !info gtk2
[05:04] <ubotu> Package gtk2 does not exist in feisty
[05:04] <leninz> !info GTK+ 2.0
[05:04] <ubotu> Package gtk+ does not exist in feisty
[05:04] <leninz> !info GTK
[05:04] <ubotu> Package gtk does not exist in feisty
[05:13] <someothernick> !build-essential
[05:13] <ubotu> Compiling software from source? Read the tips at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompilingSoftware (But remember to search for pre-built !packages first: not all !repositories are enabled by default!)
[05:25] <nalioth> @find gtk+
[05:55] <leninz> can someone help me, I'm getting this error http://www.pastebin.ca/460534
[05:55] <someothernick> do you have build-essential installed?
[05:56] <leninz> no I don't
[05:56] <leninz> instaling now
[05:57] <leninz> still same error
[05:58] <someothernick> what are u compiling?
[05:59] <leninz> configuring wxwidgets for wxJavaScript
[05:59] <leninz> I installed libgtk2.0-dev
[06:04] <someothernick> http://www.wxwidgets.org/downloads/
[06:05] <someothernick> you could add the repo and install
[06:05] <leninz> add what?
[06:05] <leninz> I already got it
[06:09] <leninz> why does this happen, I got warnings about jpeg libraries, but after I installed them the warning disappeared
[06:09] <leninz> but no matter how many times I install libgtk2.0-dev I get the sam error
[06:10] <someothernick> maybe there is another dependency
[06:10] <leninz> what acould it be?
[06:10] <someothernick> 2.8.1 is in feisty repos
[06:11] <leninz> what should I look for?
[06:13] <someothernick> wx2.8
[06:13] <leninz> I got that installed already
[06:14] <someothernick> :s
[06:18] <leninz> same error
[06:18] <leninz> this is driving me crazy
[06:18] <someothernick> :/
[06:18] <someothernick> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=29106
[06:18] <someothernick> maybe this will help
[06:22] <someothernick> libwxgtk2.8-0 libwxgtk2.8-dev
[06:28] <leninz> I have those installed, that's what's crazy!
[06:28] <someothernick> :/
[06:31] <leninz> what could be wrong
[06:32] <someothernick> does install.txt mention any other dependencies?
[06:33] <leninz> webmonkey, nspr, gtk+2, expat
[06:33] <leninz> wxwidgets
[06:33] <leninz> I got all those
[06:36] <someothernick> what if u ./configure --with-gtk ?
[06:36] <delmorep> does build-essential come preinstalled in feisty? ive been upgrading since dapper.... is there a default fiesty list somewhere?
[06:38] <leninz> I got build-essentials and --with-gtk has no effect
[06:45] <astecp> leninz: have you checked that pkg-config and/or gtk-config return sensible results?
[06:46] <leninz> pkg-config --version gtk
[06:50] <leninz> pkg-config --modversion gtk+-2.0
[06:50] <leninz> returns:
[06:50] <leninz> Package gdk-@gdktarget@-2.0 was not found in the pkg-config search path.
[06:50] <leninz> Perhaps you should add the directory containing `gdk-@gdktarget@-2.0.pc'
[06:50] <leninz> to the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable
[06:50] <leninz> Package 'gdk-@gdktarget@-2.0', required by 'GTK+', not found
[08:03] <yharrow_mobile> hey guys
[08:05] <ubuntu> ubuntu work slow
[08:18] <ubuntu> that i say
[08:18] <ubuntu> how ram do you have
[08:20] <someothernick> 5
[08:21] <someothernick> usually coffee helps
[08:22] <ubuntu> 5???
[08:22] <ubuntu> man in the moment i play hentai games
[10:05] <Elephantman> hello :)
[11:56] <bluesky> nobody here now?i've lots of  questions,in trouble ?who can help me ?
[11:57] <harrisony> !support | bluesky
[11:57] <ubotu> bluesky: support is The official ubuntu support channel is #ubuntu. Also see http://ubuntu.com/support and http://ubuntuforums.org
[11:58] <bluesky> thanks ,i'll try
[11:59] <bluesky> But I am afraid I can't understand that
[12:00] <someothernick> #ubuntu ?
[12:01] <bluesky> Yes
[12:01] <someothernick> you need another language?
[12:02] <bluesky> I knew only a little Enlish
[12:02] <bluesky> Yes
[12:02] <someothernick> what language?
[12:02] <bluesky> Chinese
[12:02] <niekie> Try #ubuntu-ch :)
[12:02] <someothernick> !ch
[12:02] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about ch - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[12:02] <niekie> Err...
[12:02] <niekie> Nope, not that, sorry.
[12:03] <someothernick> !ci
[12:03] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about ci - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[12:03] <niekie> That's Switzerland, haha.
[12:03] <someothernick> :/
[12:03] <tonytiger> heh
[12:03] <niekie> Sorry about that.
[12:03] <bluesky>  Try #ubuntu-ch??only 9 person!
[12:03] <PriceChild> hmm there is a chinese channel...
[12:03] <PriceChild> !en
[12:03] <ubotu> The #ubuntu, #kubuntu and #xubuntu channels are english only. For a complete list of channels in other languages, please visit http://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
[12:03] <niekie> bluesky: sorry, Ubuntu-ch is Switzerland.. :|
[12:04] <astecp> -zh
[12:04] <niekie> My mistake.
[12:04] <PriceChild> !cn
[12:04] <ubotu> For Ubuntu help in Chinese  #ubuntu-cn  #ubuntu-tw   #ubuntu-hk
[12:04] <niekie> Ah.
[12:04] <someothernick> oh
[12:04] <bluesky> Thank you
[12:05] <harrisony> bluesky: hope you can read that as i cant :P
[12:05] <bluesky> i can understand
[12:09] <bluesky> but this atmosphere,I like it!
[12:10] <someothernick> :)
[12:33] <bluesky> harrisony
[12:34] <harrisony> bluesky
[12:35] <bluesky> can we be friend?
[12:35] <bluesky> I want to learn something
[12:35] <harrisony> bluesky: hmm..sure i dont see why we cant be friends
[12:36] <bluesky> great!
[12:45] <jrib> leninz: that looks like some kind of bug in the program
[12:49] <bluesky> My amule's Kad can not connect,what should I do?
[12:51] <bluesky> nobody?
[12:51] <harrisony> !cn
[12:51] <ubotu> For Ubuntu help in Chinese  #ubuntu-cn  #ubuntu-tw   #ubuntu-hk
[12:52] <harrisony> classroom is mainly for
[12:52] <harrisony> !openweek
[12:52] <ubotu> openweek is Ubuntu is hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community, which all takes place in a week. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for schedules, logs, and instructions.
[03:29] <jjj> hello!
[04:18] <hjmf> !schedule Madrid
[04:18] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about schedule madrid - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[04:19] <LjL> @schedule Madrid
[04:19] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Madrid: 01 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 20:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 22:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board
[04:26] <Schalken> @schedule Melbourne
[04:26] <ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Melbourne: 02 May 01:00: Kernel Team | 02 May 04:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 06:00: Xubuntu Developers | 04 May 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 06:00: Technical Board
[04:27] <sampbar> @schedule London
[04:27] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 01 May 16:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 19:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 13:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 21:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 21:00: Technical Board
[04:30] <aborilov> @schedule Moscow
[04:30] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Moscow: 01 May 19:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 22:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 16:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 00:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 00:00: Technical Board
[04:33] <Elephantman> @schedule paris
[04:33] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 01 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 20:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 22:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board
[04:52] <silwol> @schedule vienna
[04:52] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Vienna: 01 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 20:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 22:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board
[04:53] <festival_gaim> hi
[04:58] <elkbuntu> almost time people!
[05:02] <elkbuntu> still writing notes for the class :
[05:02] <elkbuntu> be done in a minute or so
[05:04] <elkbuntu> Hello everyone! Welcome to the LoCo Teams introduction session.
[05:05] <elkbuntu> My name is Melissa Draper, and I am the LoCo Team Contact for the Ubuntu Australian LoCo Team. I am also one of the project leads for the LoCo Project. I have a wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MelissaDraper that introduces me in more detail.
[05:05] <elkbuntu> Over the course of this session, we will be covering a number of aspects of LoCo Teams, such as:
[05:06] <elkbuntu> * What are LoCo Teams?
[05:06] <elkbuntu> * How can I find my LoCo Team?
[05:06] <elkbuntu> * What can I do if I cannot find a LoCo Team for me?
[05:06] <elkbuntu> * How can I get involved?
[05:06] <elkbuntu> * What cool things can LoCo Teams do?
[05:06] <elkbuntu> * Who leads the teams?
[05:06] <elkbuntu> * Approved teams vs New teams
[05:06] <elkbuntu> First off, "What are LoCo Teams?"
[05:07] <elkbuntu> Actually, before i get into it, a reminder that questions are to be asked in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and prefixed with QUESTION:
[05:07] <elkbuntu> Ok... LoCo is short for Local Community, which is fairly self explanatory. LoCo Teams are hence Local Community Teams. For example, the LoCo Team I am contact for is Ubuntu-Au, and we are based in Australia.
[05:08] <elkbuntu> The teams are run by the people, for the people. They are *not* run by Canonical, however Canonical is highly supportive of them and will provide assistance. We will cover the assistance offered later.
[05:08] <elkbuntu> Mostly, one LoCo is sufficient for a country, but some countries have chapters for states or regions due to the size of the country and/or population. We do prefer there to be a single national encompassing Team however, for communication sake.
[05:08] <elkbuntu> This means that they are teams based around certain locations that act as, among other things, contact points for people wanting to get involved in Ubuntu and the rest of the *buntu family of projects. They are a great stepping stone to the worldwide community.
[05:09] <elkbuntu> They are also excellent points of local advocacy, support (especially if they're based in non-english speaking areas) and all things of that manner.
[05:10] <elkbuntu> As such, due to the localised nature of these teams, they are also an excellent way to find someone else near you, that uses Ubuntu, and hence 'gets it'. We all know it can be quite lonely as the only person you know who uses Linux, let alone Ubuntu.
[05:10] <elkbuntu> Closely related to LoCo Teams are Language teams. These are often a group of LoCos that speak the same language and their primary focus is support in that language. Some people consider these to be LoCos in themselves, as they generally come under the LoCo umbrella. There are differing opinions of this, however.
[05:11] <elkbuntu> One aspect of LoCo Teams that we find is most important, is that they enable and encourage people to interact with other Ubuntu users that are actually near them, as opposed to the other side of the world.
[05:12] <elkbuntu> A single person with ideas is nothing compared to a dozen equally imaginative people :)
[05:12] <elkbuntu> To find your nearest LoCo Team, please take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList and find a team that covers your area.
[05:13] <elkbuntu> If you cannot find a team, or you do and it is unfortunately inactive, the best thing you can do is start a new team, or revive the inactive one. You do not need to know much about Linux or Ubuntu to do this, just how to be a part of a group.
[05:13] <elkbuntu> I will not go into the specifics of starting teams here today, but tomorrow at 19:00 UTC, Rich Johnson is running a session called "Creating a LoCo Team" which is perfect for anyone in this situation.
[05:14] <elkbuntu> Meanwhile, for those of you who have found an appropriate team, the easiest way to get involved is simply to participate.
[05:14] <elkbuntu> Join the IRC channel, post on the forum, etc. Once you get your foot in the door and make an effort, the rest usually writes itself. Many teams openly welcome any assistance with providing support, translating, and advocacy. You don't need to know much to advocate, just that Ubuntu rocks :)
[05:15] <elkbuntu> Showing you care and putting a little bit of effort in goes a long long way to building a bond, and you will be appreciated.
[05:15] <elkbuntu> LoCo Teams are effectively the backbone of the Ubuntu Community. As the local community representation, they possess great power in building awareness and user numbers.
[05:16] <elkbuntu> For many places that speak languages other than english, providing support in local language, and translating are invaluable, as we all know, not everyone has perfect grasp of the English language (heck, this even includes supposedly native English speakers ;) )
[05:16] <elkbuntu> The more languages Ubuntu can be available in, or that people can get support in, the better chance it has to succeed.
[05:17] <elkbuntu> However, advocacy, I believe, is the strongest aspect of a LoCo. Who else is in a better position to reach out to an area, than a group that is already in that area.
[05:17] <elkbuntu> There's a number of ways LoCos can help advocate. Simply spreading the word is a great start, but there's lots of group activities that can be really powerful when done well.
[05:18] <elkbuntu> Putting posters up on community notice boards (with permission of course!), running stalls/booths at fairs and expos, writing to local media outlets, petitioning your local and national government and many more things, all help.
[05:18] <elkbuntu> There is an extensive wiki section at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamKnowledgeBase that documents alot of things that people have tried, with information about what worked well and what to avoid, along with some really cool tips.
[05:19] <elkbuntu> So how does a team get together, functioning and motivated to do things such as this? Well, that is up to each individual team. Each team has a person who fills the role called "Team Contact".
[05:19] <elkbuntu> These people are responsible for being the communication point for their teams, in this situation, their LoCo. This person not only communicates with other teams and the Ubuntu community at large (Speaking/writing English is a prerequisite for this), but often (but not always) acts as a leader figure.
[05:20] <elkbuntu> Some teams have multiple contacts, or a panel of leaders, but the general purpose is the same. It is a matter of how this works best for your particular team. I personally recommend that leaders be elected by other members of the team if possible.
[05:20] <elkbuntu> Once a team is established, they can go for "Approved" status, which means they more or less become and official team in the project.
[05:21] <elkbuntu> Approved teams get special support in terms of a CD allocation with each release, hosting for team websites, and other random goodies.
[05:21] <elkbuntu> New and Unofficial teams (which every team starts out as) also get help to get them started. They are entitled to a mailing list and an IRC channel under the Ubuntu namespace on this Freenode network. If they need, they are also entitled to request a subforum at Ubuntuforums.org
[05:22] <elkbuntu> Ok, i'll now take some questions, so get asking :)
 QUESTION: What work is going on to facilitate and promote "best practices" in web site deployment for LoCo web sites?  Common designs or apps for sharing photos, synchronizing wiki calendars with ical, etc?
[05:23] <elkbuntu> The theme used on the main Ubuntu.com site is available if you ask the right people.
[05:23] <elkbuntu> As for what you want to do with the site, that's generally up to you so long as it within the CoC guidelines.
[05:24] <elkbuntu> Teams have a certain amount of autonomy for their sites :)
 QUESTION addendum: ... and good models for how members can collaborate on the loco web sites using lanuchpad-based authentication.  E.g. openid support in launchpad?  Or bzr models for source control and a way to push out a new page?
[05:25] <elkbuntu> For launchpad questions, you'd need to ask the guys in #launchpad :)
[05:25] <elkbuntu> The main thing is to keep things open for the team to contribute however they can.
 QUESTION: I'd like to get involved in my LoCo but it seems the membership has been rather lax for more than a year... What do you recommend to revive the luster of a faded group, or should a new group be started in its stead?
[05:26] <elkbuntu> If you cannot find any trace of members that were previously in the team, especially if you cannot find the team contact, it's usually a good idea to go about organising to have control of resources such as the launchpad team and mailing list transferred to someone who is active.
[05:27] <elkbuntu> Richard will talk more about this at 19:00 UTC tomorrow :)
 QUESTION: What level of experience is needed to get involved in a LoCo, do you need to be an Ubuntu expert who's used it & Linux for years, or do new users get involved?
[05:28] <elkbuntu> CheshireViking, the only experience you need is the experience that made you like Ubuntu. Even someone who can't sysadmin for the life of them can advocate open source software :)
 QUESTION: The Colorado LoCo is planning an "Ubucon/Colorado" which will be an all-day, local self-organizing conference, like Barcamp.  Besides the Ubucon/Sevilla, have other locos tried this sort of thing?  We've had local Barcamps which are a blast, e.g. http://barcamp.org/BarCampBoulder  and a local codecamp is coming up also: http://www.frontrangecodecamp.com/
[05:29] <elkbuntu> nealmcb, you're probably worth contacting a fellow called John Mark Walker. I'll PM his email address to you later :)
[05:30] <elkbuntu> he was an organiser for the first two ubucons, in Mountain View CA and Boston (iirc)
 QUESTION: You mentioned that approved LoCo teams get CD allocations and hosting for team web sites.  Are the teams "approved" in that sense by Canonical, or phrased in another way, what relationship does Canonical have with LoCos if any.
[05:31] <elkbuntu> The teams go before the Community Council, at one of the regular meetings in #ubuntu-meeting. The team has to prove they're active, have done a few activities, and not riddled with infighting
 QUESTION: CoC guidelines?
[05:32] <elkbuntu> CoC is an acronym for the Ubuntu Code of Conduct
[05:32] <elkbuntu> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
 QUESTION: Can organisations as a whole (i.e. schools) become a member of a LoCo or do they need to pick a representative (i.e. the principal)?
[05:32] <elkbuntu> Hmm, good question.
[05:33] <elkbuntu> I'd personally recommend for a group as large as a school to have a representative/spokesperson. The IT person or principal is probably the ideal candidate for this
[05:34] <elkbuntu> If the group/organisation is only like half a dozen members large, then it's probably safe for them to each be their individual selves
 QUESTION: I'm part of an active loco, but we haven't done so much to advocate ubuntu outside of the linux/hacker community, we've mostly tried to learn about ubuntu collectively, and support it through collective efforts.  What have some locos done to advocate ubuntu that has worked well for them?
[05:34] <elkbuntu> Attending fairs, expos, conferences and such is a really good way. the belgium team has had great success doing this.
[05:35] <elkbuntu> the knowledgebase i linked to earlier has lots of things teams can do in it.
[05:35] <elkbuntu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamKnowledgeBase
 You could tell us the story behind the stickers you got, hehe.
[05:36] <elkbuntu> I'm assuming you mean the ones system76.com provide
[05:37] <elkbuntu> system76.com will offer to send loco representatives a bunch of 'powered by' stickers to distribute. they're cool guys :)
 QUESTION: When does it become necessary for a LoCo team to break up into smaller ones, for each region in a country, for example?
[05:39] <elkbuntu> That is for each team to decide. The teams in the US are broken at state level, mainly because of population. However, countries that are huge (the US already had this factor too) may validate it for accessibility purposes, while countries with multiple languages may choose to split like that.
[05:40] <elkbuntu> meanwhile we still prefer one team per country with chapters underneath the team. it's way more sane that way.
 QUESTION: Has any LoCos ever tried to advertise Ubuntu in newspapers and radios?
[05:41] <elkbuntu> I dont know about adverts in newspapers, but some locos have gotten stories in papers and magazines.
[05:41] <elkbuntu> there's also adverts running in the german metro at the moment, and around the time of the first ubucon, there were billboards in the silicon valley in the US
 QUESTION: Can you explain a little more what the "Community Council" is: Is it governed by Canonical?
[05:43] <elkbuntu> The community council is a representative body. While there are some Canonical employees on the board, including Mark, there's also volunteers on it.
[05:43] <elkbuntu> It is not governed by Canonical, no.
[05:44] <elkbuntu> there is info on it at: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/council
 QUESTION: Can you measure the success of a LoCo teams? If so, is there maybe some friendly competition going on between the teams?
[05:44] <elkbuntu> Um, if there is any friendly rivalry, i havent heard about it, but so long as it stays friendly, i wont discourage it. rivalry is quite motivating :)
[05:45] <elkbuntu> Measuring the success of volunteer teams is really really hard. It's like trying to guess how many times Ubuntu was downloaded worldwide -- way too many variables.
[05:46] <elkbuntu> However, the success of a loco requires activity, and keeping active and visible is probably the best success of all.
 QUESTION: What can a LoCo team do as a group to help with the development of Ubuntu and its software?
[05:46] <elkbuntu> the *best* thing a loco can do is translate :)
[05:47] <elkbuntu> while theres a ton of translations in rosetta (the translator application in Launchpad), most of them still have work.. and of course as things change, there's new sections to be done.
[05:48] <elkbuntu> Teams can also make localised versions of Ubuntu, with their native language as default, and with applications useful to locals
[05:48] <elkbuntu> Teams often work really well with sub-teams. a translation subteam, a localisation subteam, etc
[05:48] <elkbuntu> but of course, local support is also very important :)
 QUESTION: WHY are you and others part of a LoCo group?
[05:49] <elkbuntu> Haha! Because we *LOVE* Ubuntu. We found the freedom of Linux, and we really want others to share that experience.
 QUESTION: Does "Australian" have its own language pack?
[05:50] <elkbuntu> We do actually. While I'm fuzzy on the details, it's something like a sub-translation under the en_gb or something
[05:51] <elkbuntu> It means that dictionaries can contain local words and place names, non-american spelling ;) and so forth.
 lol, does it have a lot of 'mate' in it?
[05:51] <elkbuntu> considering 'mate' also applies to the actions by which baby animals are made, yes. 'mate' is in most English language dictionaries.
 QUESTION: How can a LoCo work with NGOs?
[05:54] <elkbuntu> working with hmm. trying to getting sponsorship from NGOs that are into that sort of thing is probably worth a try
[05:54] <elkbuntu> i'm not really sure how one would mess with them other than that :-/
[05:54] <elkbuntu> irvin> QUESTION: do other teams have an office address?
[05:54] <elkbuntu> office address? some may have a post office box, but i dont know of any teams with premises
 QUESTION: What's your favourite thing that you've done with your LoCo?
[05:55] <elkbuntu> LCA!
[05:55] <elkbuntu> linux.conf.au 2007 rocked :)
[05:55] <elkbuntu> i organised a booth, and we ran it and were quite popular :)
[05:56] <elkbuntu> i'm quite away from the majority of my team, since im in a non-metro area, so it was the best thing i've personally done with them
 QUESTION: Say you have a problem installing Ubuntu, is it best to go to a LoCo team for help - or somewhere else?
[05:57] <elkbuntu> If you're not too great with english, your loco is probably the better option. if you're competent with english, probably #ubuntu or the forums
 QUESTION: How might a business, small or large, interact with their LoCo to help spread Ubuntu?
[05:57] <elkbuntu> Sponsorship. Posters in their premises. Using it themselves. there's a huge number of ways :)
[05:58] <elkbuntu> system76 actually sponsor the colorado team i believe
[05:58] <elkbuntu> we also have an addendum to the 'where to go' question: <Pricey> elkbuntu, or answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu ;)
[05:58] <elkbuntu> thanks pricey :)
[05:59] <elkbuntu> I think that's about all for tonight folks. I'll be running another session tomorrow at 21:00 UTC  if you need more answers :)
[06:03] <mrevell> Welcome to the "Introduction to Launchpad" session! Thanks for attending.
[06:03] <mrevell> Over the next hour, I'll take you through what makes Launchpad special.
[06:04] <mrevell> I'll also invite you to read through the logs of previous Launchpad-related sessions in Ubuntu Open Week.
[06:04] <mrevell> And towards the end of the session I'll be very happy to answer any questions that we have time for.
[06:04] <mrevell> Let's start with an overview of what Launchpad is:
[06:05] <mrevell> Launchpad is a web-based application to help people work on free software projects. It has five main tools:
[06:05] <mrevell> * bug tracker
[06:05] <mrevell> * code hosting
[06:05] <mrevell> * translations
[06:05] <mrevell> * blueprint tracker
[06:05] <mrevell> * answer tracker.
[06:05] <mrevell> What makes Launchpad really special, though, is its approach to collaboration.
[06:06] <mrevell> Launchpad was originally built to make it easy to create Ubuntu.
[06:06] <mrevell> Ubuntu is made up of the work of hundreds of different communities.
[06:06] <mrevell> Launchpad makes it easy for those communities to work together when they face shared problems.
[06:06] <mrevell> Take a look at https://launchpad.net/~matthew.revell
[06:06] <mrevell> This is my Launchpad profile page. Try not to laugh at the bad photo :)
[06:07] <mrevell> However bad it is, that photo's pretty useful. It appears on pages of my work and makes it easy to see what I've worked on.
[06:07] <mrevell> On my profile page, you can get an idea of what interests me and what work I've done in Launchpad.
[06:07] <mrevell> The "Most active in" section shows you which projects I've worked on recently and what sort of work I did.
[06:08] <mrevell> Unsurprisingly, Launchpad is top of my list!
[06:08] <mrevell> The two icons there show you that I've recently worked on bugs and blueprints related to Launchpad.
[06:08] <mrevell> You can also see how to contact me and which teams I've joined.
[06:09] <mrevell> Launchpad teams make it easy for groups of people to organise themselves. Anyone can create a team.
[06:09] <mrevell> Teams can do just about anything that an individual can. For example: they can join other teams or act as the bug contact for a project.
[06:10] <mrevell> Before we get down to the individual parts of Launchpad, I'd like to explain some terminology.
[06:10] <mrevell> Communities are groups of people who work on software. They're not necessarily the originators of that software.
[06:10] <mrevell> For example: there are many communities who work with code from Firefox. There's the original Firefox team, the Debian packagers, the Ubuntu Firefox/Mozilla team, the Epiphany team and so on.
[06:10] <mrevell> 
[06:11] <mrevell> Okay, let's look at the Launchpad bug tracker. It's probably the Launchpad tool that you know best and you may know it by its old name, Malone.
[06:11] <mrevell> You probably know that free software projects share code all the time. Take the Jokosher audio editor, for example. It relies on code from Gstreamer, Python, Gnome and other projects.
[06:11] <mrevell> Similarly, Linux distributions take the work of free software projects and package them up for people to use. They sometimes make changes to the code and also act as a frontline for when people report bugs.
[06:12] <mrevell> All of this means that bugs in free software aren't always reported to the people who wrote the code in the first place.
[06:12] <mrevell> With Launchpad, you can follow a bug as it affects each individual community.
[06:12] <mrevell> For example, let's look at: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/92345
[06:13] <mrevell> At the top of the page is a table that shows the communities that this bug affects.
[06:13] <mrevell> Each community sets its own status and importance for the bug but can share the same comment history.
[06:14] <mrevell> At a glance, you can see if someone has found a solution to the bug.
[06:14] <mrevell> You can also follow the full conversation that has taken place so far.
[06:14] <mrevell> With bug 92345, you may have noticed that two of the communities affected don't even use Launchpad.
[06:15] <mrevell> That's no problem.
[06:15] <mrevell> Much like your blog feed reader, Launchpad follows bugs in other bug trackers, including BugZilla, Roundup, Debian Bug Tracker and Sourceforge.
[06:15] <mrevell> Okay, so it's really cool that Launchpad makes bug tracking a hundred times more useful for free software projects.
[06:15] <mrevell> But it also gets the basics right too.
[06:15] <mrevell> Here's a short list of some of the cool stuff that Launchpad's bug tracker has going for it:
[06:16] <mrevell> * Easy to use web interface.
[06:16] <mrevell> * Email interface.
[06:16] <mrevell> * Bug tagging - create ad-hoc groups of bugs.
[06:16] <mrevell> * Fully hosted service - no sysadmin work.
[06:16] <mrevell> * Works with other parts of Launchpad, such as code hosting and the blueprint tracker.
[06:17] <mrevell> Bjorn, part of the team that looks after the Launchpad Bug Tracker, gave a session at the beginning of Ubuntu Open Week on triaging bugs with Launchpad.
[06:17] <mrevell> You can find the session log at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/triaging
[06:18] <mrevell> Ok, onto Code Hosting.
[06:18] <mrevell> Launchpad works with the Bazaar version control system. Bazaar is a distributed version control system.
[06:18] <mrevell> That means everyone has their own code repository (called a branch in Bazaar terms).
[06:18] <mrevell> Unlike with CVS or Subversion, you don't need special permissions to start work on someone else's code.
[06:18] <mrevell> Instead, you create your own branch and work on that.
[06:18] <mrevell> It's then easy to merge your changes back into the original branch.
[06:19] <mrevell> Hosting a branch publicly is really easy. All you need is a standard web server.
[06:19] <mrevell> You can find out more about Bazaar in the log of Martin Pool's session from Monday
[06:19] <mrevell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/Bazaar
[06:20] <mrevell> Launchpad makes Bazaar even more useful.
[06:20] <mrevell> One of the problems with distributed version control is that it can be hard to find all the branches associated with your project.
[06:20] <mrevell> Launchpad solves that.
[06:20] <mrevell> It has a browsable code catalogue for each project.
[06:20] <mrevell> Anyone can register their branch to show up in your project's branch list.
[06:21] <mrevell> You can see how active each branch is, read the developer's commit messages and create your own branch at any time.
[06:21] <mrevell> Importantly, Launchpad can either directly host the branches or mirror them.
[06:21] <mrevell> This means they're always available for anyone to create their own branch.
[06:21] <mrevell> Take a look at the branches for Ubuntu's Update Manager:
[06:22] <mrevell> https://code.launchpad.net/update-manager
[06:22] <mrevell> You can see the main development branch but people have also created their own branches to work on their priorities.
[06:22] <mrevell> Bazaar makes it really easy for development to take different directions, while Launchpad helps make sure it's all accessible from one place.
[06:23] <mrevell> Now, take a look at the Bazaar project's branches:
[06:23] <mrevell>  https://code.launchpad.net/bzr
[06:23] <mrevell> Notice the small bug icons?
[06:23] <mrevell> If you created a branch to fix specific bugs, you can link the branch to the relevant bug reports.
[06:23] <mrevell> With a link between a bug report and the branch that fixes it, everyone can now easily get hold of a bug's solution.
[06:24] <mrevell> On that page you can also see several branches registered to the Bazaar Developers team.
[06:24] <mrevell> These are team branches.
[06:24] <mrevell> They're hosted centrally, on Launchpad, and only members of the Bazaar Developers team can commit to them.
[06:24] <mrevell> Team branches are ideal for working together on a major line of development.
[06:24] <mrevell> Anyone can still create their branch, though.
[06:25] <mrevell> Finally, Launchpad can make a continuous import of almost any CVS or Subversion repository hosted on the internet.
[06:25] <mrevell> This means that you can create your own Bazaar branch of the code and your own line of development.
[06:25] <mrevell> With Bazaar's bzr-svn plugin, and the appropriate commit access, you can even commit your code back to Subversion repositories.
[06:26] <mrevell> You can find out more about hosting code with Launchpad in the log of Jono Lange's session "Hosting Code with Launchpad" - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/lpbazaar
[06:26] <mrevell> Onto Translations!
[06:26] <mrevell> Launchpad Translations, formerly known as Rosetta, takes the pain out of translating software into different languages.
[06:27] <mrevell> Much of the free software world uses GNU's GetText.
[06:27] <mrevell> Developers put markers in their code to show where GetText should insert a string of interface text.
[06:27] <mrevell> GetText uses a certain file format to store translated strings.
[06:27] <mrevell> Although it's simple enough, the truth is that translators shouldn't have to be coders.
[06:27] <mrevell> Launchpad shields translators from the underlying complexities and gives them a simple web interface.
[06:28] <mrevell> Launchpad currently works with 237 languages and has more than 760,000 strings in its database.
[06:28] <mrevell> Naturally, the same phrases occur in the interfaces of many applications.
[06:28] <mrevell> When someone is translating an application, Launchpad checks its database to see if it has already seen those strings in that language. If it has, it suggests them to the translator.
[06:28] <mrevell> Launchpad also gives teams three different ways to ensure they get the right balance between control of translations and encouraging community participation.
[06:29] <mrevell> From fully open - where anyone can translate - to restricted, where only pre-appointed translators can make translations.
[06:29] <mrevell> Of course, development work usually starts on a new release while the stable release is still in use.
[06:29] <mrevell> Launchpad allows multiple translation efforts to take place concurrently for the same project.
[06:29] <mrevell> So, translation can begin on a new release and continue on the stable release.
[06:30] <mrevell> You can find out more about Launchpad Translations in Carlos and Danilo's session log at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/lproseta
[06:30] <mrevell> Onto the Blueprint Tracker!
[06:30] <mrevell> Launchpad's Blueprint Tracker is unique.
[06:30] <mrevell> It helps you track chunks of work associated with your project.
[06:30] <mrevell> Many of you will have come across blueprints when working on Ubuntu.
[06:31] <mrevell> A blueprint can be anything from a single sentence to a full specification, with information about who is involved and where it fits into your project's roadmap.
[06:31] <mrevell> Anyone can create a blueprint for a project.
[06:31] <mrevell> This is a great way for everyone to get involved in shaping the future of a project.
[06:31] <mrevell> However, the project's leaders get to choose the priority of each blueprint.
[06:31] <mrevell> Take a look at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[06:32] <mrevell> Here you can see all the blueprints associated with Ubuntu. Not only can you see the priority of each blueprint but also:
[06:32] <mrevell> * Definition status - how well thought out and presented is the idea? Is it a full spec or just a one line scribble?
[06:32] <mrevell> * Progress - has work begun on it? Is a beta available? Is it delayed?
[06:32] <mrevell> * Assignee - who's responsible for making sure the blueprint is implemented?
[06:32] <mrevell> * Release - which release is this blueprint targeted to?
[06:32] <mrevell> With the Blueprint Tracker, you can also organise meetings, such as Ubuntu Developer Summits.
[06:33] <mrevell> Anyone can contribute to the meeting's agenda by suggesting which blueprints to discuss.
[06:33] <mrevell> You can see the agenda for UDS Mountain View at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-mtv
[06:33] <mrevell> Like bugs, you can link blueprints to the code branches that implement them.
[06:33] <mrevell> You can find out more about the Blueprint Tracker in kiko's session log:
[06:33] <mrevell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/lpblueprint
[06:34] <mrevell> Finally, the Answer Tracker.
[06:34] <mrevell> Mailing lists and web forums are traditionally where free software projects answer user support questions.
[06:34] <mrevell> However, it can be difficult to capture that knowledge and make it easily available to the community.
[06:35] <mrevell> Some people are also intimidated by mailing lists or the initiation rituals of some forums :)
[06:35] <mrevell> Launchpad's Answer Tracker is a simple way for people to ask questions about a project.
[06:35] <mrevell> Anyone can offer an answer and the original questioner can highlight the answer they found most useful.
[06:35] <mrevell> Members of a project's community can sign up to be support contacts, meaning they receive an email each time a new question is asked about that project.
[06:36] <mrevell> The Answer Tracker is the first part of Launchpad to be localised.
[06:36] <mrevell> People can ask questions in their own language(s).
[06:36] <mrevell> Support contacts can choose to receive notification of questions asked in their preferred languages.
[06:36] <mrevell> Importantly, all of the questions and answers are easily searchable, meaning that they build into a knowledge-base for the project.
[06:37] <mrevell> You can find out more about Launchpad's Answer Tracker in Francis and Alan's session:
[06:37] <mrevell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/lpcommunity
[06:37] <mrevell> So, what is the future for Launchpad?
[06:38] <mrevell> We're working to add new features to Launchpad and you can get a first taste by joining the Launchpad Beta Testers team.
[06:38] <mrevell> You can sign up at:
[06:38] <mrevell> https://launchpad.net/~launchpad-beta-testers
[06:38] <mrevell> As I said earlier, Launchpad was created to make it easy for the Ubuntu community to create the best operating system in the world :)
[06:39] <mrevell> However, we think Launchpad is ready for other communities and projects to start using it in earnest.
[06:39] <mrevell> Recently, Zope and SilvaCMS started using Launchpad's Bug Tracker.
[06:39] <mrevell> We've also seen many other projects, including PledgeBank, WengoPhone and Creative Commons start to use Translations.
[06:40] <mrevell> Thank you so much for your interest in Launchpad. I hope that I've given you a taster of what Launchpad is all about.
[06:40] <mrevell> We'd love to hear what you think about Launchpad and to hear your questions. Join us in #launchpad, or on the launchpad-users mailing list:
[06:41] <mrevell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/launchpad-users
[06:41] <mrevell> We also have user meetings in #launchpad.
[06:41] <mrevell> We'll have the next one on 2nd May at 16:00 UTC. Add your questions to the agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadUserMeeting/2007-05-02
[06:42] <mrevell> Now, I'll take the questions from the chat channel. Just a moment.
 QUESTION: Loco teams want to manage access to their web sites using launchpad's notion of loco membership, and allow loco members to log in to the loco web site with launchpad credentials.  Is launchpad planning to support openid or cardspace?
[06:43] <mrevell> nealmcb: Good question!
[06:43] <mrevell> nealmcb: I think Launchpad will become more and more useful for loco teams.
[06:44] <mrevell> nealmcb: I think OpenID is a great idea and I can certainly see it having a good fit with Launchpad. However, I don't know about any particular plans for any particular scheme. watch this space, join the beta team :)
[06:45] <mrevell> nealmcb: If you'd like to disucss it further, please join us on the launchpad-users mailing list.
 QUESTION: I heard about a discussion about Ubuntu switching to Bazaar.Do you know anything about that and how could it remain compatible with Debian if switching?
[06:46] <mrevell> ditsch: Although I'm not sure about any exact plans for Ubuntu, it certainly makes a lot of sense for Ubuntu to use Bazaar. Of course, it'd be down to the Ubuntu community to decide on any changes such as that.
[06:47] <mrevell> ditsch: Bazaar solves a lot of the problems of Subversion and is really well suited to free software development. Its links with Launchpad also make it a natural candidate for Ubuntu.
[06:48] <mrevell> ditsch: As for compatibility with Debian, I'm sure that'll remain a high priority but I'm a) not a developer and a bit dumb when it comes to that sort of thing and b) not directly involved in Ubuntu.
 QUESTION: Mark Shuttleworth said that he wouldn't release Launchpad under GPL yet because of concerns its development branches would fragment so quickly with people adding features.  And yet: Launchpad and Bazaar are designed for users to create and track diverging code branches in any project.  How can you justify that it's okay for any other project to have divergent code bases, but NOT Launchpad?
[06:49] <mrevell> DoctorOwl: We haven't released the code to Launchpad because we believe that Launchpad can do its job best as a single web service, rather than a number of competing and unlinked installations.
[06:50] <mrevell> DoctorOwl: For any other details, I'll refer you to Mark's "Ask Mark" session. The logs are at:
[06:50] <mrevell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/askmark
 QUESTION: How does Launchpad's answer system tie with the forums? Will they eventually be replaced, in whole or in part?
[06:51] <mrevell> Schalken: The Ubuntu forums are run by the Ubuntu community, with financial support from Canonical. I know that Jono, Mark Shuttleworth and other members of the community have worked together to ensure good governance is in place for the forums. So, I think that suggests a commitment to the future of the forums.
[06:52] <mrevell> Schalken: While there may be integration with Launchpad in the future, I don't see any reason for the forums to go away.
 QUESTION: You mention that bugs in Launchpad are linked with other bug tracking systems, but to what extent is the information shared? Does a new gimp bug in launchpad appear in bugs.gimp.org, and do comments on launchpad appear on linked bugs and vice-versa?
[06:54] <mrevell> Schalken: We don't actively push bugs or bug data into other trackers. Pushing bugs into other people's trackers may be considered rude and unhelpful. However, I believe that people could use screen-scraping techniques to get the data and, within time, our XML-RPC interface when it's available.
 QUESTION: Will forum posts and Wiki contributions ever be considered in karma calculations?
[06:55] <mrevell> etank: Quite possibly, it would certainly make sense for them to count towards karma, if there were to be further integration between the wiki, forums and Launchpad.
 QUESTION: do we need more publication on Launchpad, as many newbies would not know its existence firsthand?
[06:56] <mrevell> bababian: That's something I'm working to fix and I would love to hear any ideas or input you have.
 QUESTION: i definitly agree than competing and unlinked installations of launchpad would be a bad thing, but what about the other cases ? like collaborative and linked installations ? or unlinked installation on disctincts projects ?
[06:58] <mrevell> zorglu_: I don't think I have time remaining to give a good answer. However, at the moment we don't have any infrastructure in Launchpad that would enable two installations to communicate and there may be better solutions for what you refer to as distinct projects. Adding that code isn't a priority for the team at the moment and there are other reasons, such as us not currently having time to build an educated community of develop
[06:58] <mrevell> ers, for us not releasing as free software just yet.
[06:59] <mrevell> Please, join us in launchpad-users to continue this discussion!
[06:59] <mrevell> Thanks all! Bye!
[07:02] <seb128> hi everybody
[07:02] <seb128> better now ;)
[07:02] <Amaranth> there we go
[07:02] <seb128> I'm Sebastien Bacher, and I'm working on the Ubuntu Desktop
[07:03] <seb128> the Desktop Team is basically the group of people who takes care of the Ubuntu desktop and try to make it rocking
[07:03] <seb128> I've some notes for the session to present the team, what we are doing and what you can do to help the team
[07:03] <seb128> I'll copy them on the chan
[07:04] <seb128> and let you some time to comment on #ubuntu-classroom-chat between blocks
[07:04] <seb128> comment are just if something about what I wrote was not clear
[07:04] <seb128> otherwise we will do questions after the presentation ;)
[07:04] <seb128> 
[07:04] <seb128> let's start
[07:04] <seb128> 
[07:04] <seb128> Where you can find members of the desktop team:
[07:04] <seb128> - the #ubuntu-desktop@freenode IRC chan
[07:04] <seb128> - the ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list
[07:05] <seb128> (and also on the wiki and launchpad ;)
[07:05] <seb128> 
[07:05] <seb128> The main goals for the team are:
[07:05] <seb128> - update desktop packages when new upstream versions are available
[07:05] <seb128> - make easy for users to try new cool softwares by packaging them quickly
[07:05] <seb128> - have a good collaboration with upstream
[07:05] <seb128> - triage and fix desktop bugs
[07:05] <seb128> - make the Ubuntu Desktop ROCK!
[07:05] <seb128> 
[07:06] <seb128> so that's what we are trying to do
[07:06] <seb128> sometime we rock, sometime we could better ;)
[07:07] <seb128> any help is welcome because we tend to have lot to do and the time is quite small
[07:07] <seb128> I'll list the main area where you can contribute
[07:07] <seb128> 
[07:07] <seb128> * Work on Bugs
[07:07] <seb128> Bugs managements is a good part of the work for the desktop team at the moment and required to prioritise the work and now what problems should worked first
[07:07] <seb128> - Places for desktop bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/~desktop-bugs/+assignedbugs, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bugs
[07:07] <seb128> - You can help the Desktop Team by joining the bug squad (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad)
[07:07] <seb128> - help listing bugs that should be fixed for the next version of Ubuntu (or fixes to backport)
[07:08] <seb128> 
[07:09] <seb128> (for people asking on what set of package the desktop team work: https://bugs.launchpad.net/~desktop-bugs/+packagebugs)
[07:09] <seb128> 
[07:09] <seb128> bugs are not the only thing you can work on
[07:10] <seb128> * Communication with other teams, upstream, Debian, etc:
[07:10] <seb128> We want to have a good relationship with the Debian and Upstream
[07:10] <seb128> - work on forwarding patches upstream (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/UpstreamDelta), having a low delta is better for everybody
[07:10] <seb128> - become point of contact between the distribution and upstream for packages you have an interest in work with other teams and Debian
[07:10] <seb128> (ups, "work with other teams and Debian" was an another pojnt, dropped the new line)
[07:10] <seb128> 
[07:10] <seb128> also
[07:10] <seb128> 
[07:10] <seb128> * Documentation
[07:10] <seb128> A good documentation help new contributors to know where to start and also not-so-new team members how to do specific things, or what is to do by example
[07:10] <seb128> - help by writing specifications (i.e: documents on launchpad and the wiki that describes the changes we want to get implemented and how)
[07:11] <seb128> - update wiki pages for the DesktopTeam (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam) (goals, list of things to do, documentation, how to start, etc)
[07:11] <seb128> 
[07:11] <seb128> Testing
[07:11] <seb128> - help testing GNOME, write specific test plans
[07:11] <seb128> 
[07:12] <seb128> one of the issues is to detect in the quantity of bugs we get which one are regression or items that should be fixed for the new version
[07:12] <seb128> testing takes time but it's useful to detect regressions early and work on them
[07:12] <seb128> 
[07:13] <seb128> * Packaging
[07:13] <seb128> Most of the work for a distribution is at the packaging level which means there is some place to contribute there too :)
[07:13] <seb128> - help doing desktop packages updates (update the package, test the new version, communicate issues with upstream is there is any)
[07:13] <seb128> - pick a package you have interest in (contacting the usual maintainer before starting to work on it might be a good idea) and start working on it. No need to have uploads right to start on a package, having your first updates mentored is usually a good start and way to learn. If you do a good job you can quickly become the maintainer for that package
[07:13] <seb128> - work on fixing issues by writting patches or backporting them from upstream and applying those fixes to the packages
[07:13] <seb128> - package new softwares
[07:14] <seb128> 
[07:14] <seb128> those are the main tasks we are working on
[07:14] <seb128> some extra items still
[07:14] <seb128> Other
[07:14] <seb128> - new ideas: bring your good ideas of changes for the Ubuntu desktop and help to implement them
[07:14] <seb128> - teams: if you can motivate several people to work on a project creating a team around it is a good way to organize work: gnomemm, pda, voip, whatever else you are interested to work on
[07:14] <seb128> - If you have crazy ideas, write them up on DesktopTeam/Visions and discuss them on the mailing list.
[07:14] <seb128> 
[07:14] <seb128> ok, that's was a quick overview of what we are doing
[07:15] <seb128> there is lot to do as you can see
[07:15] <seb128> especially that we have quite some packages maintained by the team and lot of enthusiastic users sending bugs ;)
[07:15] <seb128> let's do questions and answers now
[07:16] <seb128> you can ask them to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[07:16] <seb128> does somebody want to copy interesting question on this chan so I don't have to switch between them? ;)
[07:16] <seb128> Amaranth: ^
 QUESTION: In your opinion, how does development of Ubuntu as a desktop OS fare against Ubuntu as a server OS?  In addition, how do the size of the Desktop and Server teams compare, and is this any indication of the importance Canonical places on one over the other?  If not, why not.
[07:18] <seb128> Ubuntu does lot of desktop work but is good on server as well
 QUESTION: How do you decide what new versions of software should be packaged as updates, and which should be held off for the next release?
[07:18] <seb128> most of the distribution team work on the distribution at a general level (ie: nothing desktop specific)
[07:18] <seb128> we have now a separate server iso
[07:18] <seb128> and efforts going to this direction
[07:18] <Amaranth> oh, i thought you were done :)
[07:19] <seb128> Amaranth: almost
[07:19] <seb128> we want Ubuntu rocking on desktop and server
[07:19] <seb128> 
[07:19] <seb128> next one
[07:20] <seb128> we update to new stable versions during the unstable cycle
[07:20] <seb128> until the Upstream Version Freeze point
[07:20] <seb128> then we only pick bug fixes updates or things which we really want
[07:20] <seb128> if there is an unstable serie going on we look on the upstream schedule (if there is one)
[07:21] <seb128> if they plan to release a stable version in time for us we can track the unstable serie
[07:21] <seb128> (what we do with GNOME)
[07:21] <seb128> otherwise we stay on the stable serie
[07:21] <Amaranth> I think the question is more "when would you release new software as an update to a released version of Ubuntu?". Like firefox, etc
[07:22] <seb128> oh
[07:22] <seb128> we don't package new versions for a stable release
[07:22] <seb128> stable = not moving, by definition
[07:22] <seb128> firefox is an exeption because backporting security updates, etc is lot of hard work
[07:23] <seb128> when we can backport we prefer to do that
[07:23] <seb128> there is ubuntu-backports though
[07:23] <seb128> which takes packages from the new unstable distribution and make them available for the stables
[07:24] <seb128> you can use that if you really want the keep using the stable serie with a new version of something
[07:24] <seb128> 
[07:24] <seb128> next question?
[07:24] <seb128> Amaranth: ^
 QUESTION: Ubuntu is growing very fast in the entire World. In Brazil is the most used Linux distribution... Strangely, companies that sell notebooks and desktop around here never sell their hardware with Ubuntu or any known LInux.. They sell with an odd brazilian distro that no one, not even brazilians know... Do Ubuntu team plan to reach more hardware here in Brazil?
[07:25] <seb128> Terramel: thanks for the question, it's really out of the desktop team scope though ;)
[07:25] <seb128> Canonical work with OEM, hardware sellers, etc to get Ubuntu distributed
[07:25] <seb128> that's not easy work though
[07:26] <seb128> I think that should become better for linux with time
[07:26] <seb128> 
[07:26] <seb128> Amaranth: next?
 QUESTION: Does ubuntu-desktop  have too many features (many could mean productivity for veteran users, though) for new users to grasp?
[07:26] <Amaranth> I think he means separate apps for music playing and burning and etc vs iTunes on the Mac
[07:27] <seb128> not sure to understand the question ;)
 I mean new users might prefer to have just one app that goes wth their needs, like the iTunes on a Mac
[07:27] <seb128> we try to have no duplication on the default installation
[07:27] <Amaranth> Lack of integration?
[07:27] <seb128> like have one application for one task
[07:27] <seb128> oh
[07:28] <seb128> well, we are following GNOME there
[07:28] <seb128> the spirit is rather to make applications adapted to the tasks and easy to use
[07:28] <seb128> having an application doing everything complicates the interface a lot
[07:29] <seb128> you can install other applications than the one from the default desktop though
[07:29] <seb128> there is lot of choice to main and universe ;)
[07:29] <seb128> 
[07:29] <seb128> next
 QUESTION: what makes an application became included in default instalation? and how do desktop team determine which application must be in default installation?
[07:30] <seb128> well
[07:30] <seb128> we ship the GNOME desktop so when something is accepted there we tend to add it as well
[07:30] <seb128> otherwise we add applications we find useful for our users
[07:31] <seb128> if you have any suggestion feel free to mail the ubuntu-desktop mailing list
[07:31] <seb128> we will consider it
[07:31] <seb128> 
[07:31] <seb128> next
[07:31] <Amaranth> QUESTION: What happened to the GstToUmbrella spec?
[07:32] <seb128> we got no consensus on what to do with g-s-t
[07:33] <seb128> it's far to be perfect but it's better
[07:33] <seb128> upsteam rewrote the architecture
[07:33] <seb128> it's using dbus now
[07:33] <seb128> and backend can be written in something else than perl
[07:33] <seb128> so we decide to stay with it
[07:33] <seb128> because writting new tools would be lot of work
[07:33] <seb128> and we are already overworked at the moment
[07:33] <Amaranth> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FutureOfGst <--link for those who don't know what this is
[07:34] <seb128> g-s-t tools do mainly their job
[07:34] <seb128> they could use some bug fixing work though ... if anybody feels like sending patches, feel free ;)
[07:35] <seb128> 
[07:35] <seb128> next?
 QUESTION: how many people are currently focused on i18n, complex scripts and font issues in the desktop-team?
[07:35] <Amaranth> I guess that's more of a general "What are you doing for i18n?" question
[07:36] <seb128> none
[07:36] <seb128> the Canonical part of the desktop team is 1.5 people
[07:36] <seb128> (Daniel Holbach is working also on MOTU and other things)
[07:36] <seb128> we barely cope with new versions packaging and the hundreds of bugs a week we receive
[07:37] <seb128> we have some rocking contributors also but none interested in that it looks like
[07:37] <seb128> 
[07:37] <seb128> next?
 QUESTION: does the ubuntu-desktop group have any sway over what's included in the Kubuntu or Xubuntu desktop applications, or are they completely separate?
[07:37] <seb128> (if you want to contribute for better i18n or font handling you are really welcome)
[07:37] <seb128> 
[07:38] <seb128> completely separate
[07:38] <seb128> we do sometime some packaging changes to make the xubuntu job easier
[07:38] <seb128> like we splited python-gnome so they can use gconf without depending on everything
[07:38] <seb128> we don't decide anything for them though
[07:38] <seb128> 
[07:38] <seb128> next?
 QUESTION: will in the future, we could choose the application to be install when installing ubuntu? I never use ekiga, so it's better i choose not to install it in the first place
[07:39] <seb128> I don't think it's planned for now or a priority
[07:39] <seb128> we want to keep the installation simple
[07:39] <seb128> and ekiga will only cost you some megs on your disk
[07:40] <seb128> which is really no big deal when you see the size of disk shipped nowadays
[07:40] <seb128> you are free to uninstall anything you don't want
[07:40] <seb128> (we try to move not required packages to Recommends now, so you can uninstall them without removing ubuntu-desktop)
[07:40] <seb128> 
[07:40] <seb128> Amaranth: next ;)
  QUESTION:What, if any, are the features/changes/plans for feisty+1 or gusty+1 that you would like to see in the desktop-team goals? In other words wats your personal goals for the desktop-team?
[07:41] <seb128> - desktop search integration is likely to happen for feisty+1
[07:41] <seb128> (beagle or tracker, not decided which one, we will discuss it during the next UDS)
[07:41] <seb128> - better compiz and maybe use it by default
[07:42] <seb128> - hum
[07:42] <seb128> - make login work when you run out of disk space
[07:42] <seb128> - menu simplication
[07:42] <seb128> 
[07:42] <seb128> those are likely the main item for feisty+1
[07:43] <seb128> items
[07:43] <seb128> oh
[07:43] <seb128> also easy samba sharing
[07:43] <seb128> 
[07:43] <seb128> Amaranth: next?
[07:43] <Amaranth> QUESTION: Why can't you upgrade without having ubuntu-desktop installed and why doesn't update-manager warn you about this?
[07:44] <Amaranth> sort of relates to "just uninstall ekiga"
[07:44] <seb128> hum
[07:44] <seb128> I'm not sure but I think update-manager does install ubuntu-desktop for the update
[07:44] <seb128> note what it had to install
[07:44] <seb128> and remove it with what it had to install after
[07:44] <seb128> there is some clever logic there
[07:45] <seb128> maybe not clever enough though ;)
[07:45] <seb128> if you face an upgrade bug please file a bug with the log
[07:45] <seb128> there is corner cases listed, etc
[07:45] <seb128> still some extra cases could be added or improved
[07:45] <seb128> 
[07:45] <seb128> Amaranth: next
 QUESTION: in the future releases of Ubuntu, what are the chances of moving to the Tango imagery by default?
[07:46] <seb128> ubuntu-artwork question
[07:46] <seb128> if you mean using the upstream blue tango theme, I think really low
[07:46] <seb128> the color is part of the ubuntu branding
[07:46] <seb128> and I don't think it's going to change totally
[07:47] <seb128> and we like having Ubuntu not looking like other distributions I think ;)
[07:47] <seb128> 
[07:47] <seb128> Amaranth: next
 QUESTION: which one is better for the desktop-team, to include new application that may generate more bugs, or stick to old stable application?
[07:48] <Amaranth> New bling that needs work vs boring old stable apps, I guess
[07:48] <seb128> I sort of replied to that one when I replied wrongly to the new version to -updates question ;)
[07:48] <Amaranth> oh, right
[07:48] <seb128> if we think it'll stabilize in time for the next Ubuntu we will go for it
[07:48] <seb128> and try to encourage upstream to have a look on launchpad bugs
[07:49] <seb128> 
[07:49] <seb128> next?
 QUESTION: I've read a few complaints about the differences of fonts between the desktop level and some of the default installed programs (Firefox as example), will there be any movement to bring the differences in fonts closer to a more unified look?
[07:50] <seb128> I think that's job one or several bugs
[07:50] <seb128> we have like 20 000 of them open now
[07:50] <seb128> we can't tackle everything with the small team we have
[07:50] <seb128> I'm sure it'll be better at some point
[07:50] <seb128> dunno when though
[07:50] <seb128> if you have any suggestion on how to make it look better please open a bug or mail the ubuntu-devel list
[07:50] <seb128> 
[07:50] <seb128> next?
 QUESTION: If ubuntu-deskop and kubuntu-desktop are installed together the Apps for (K)Ubuntu show up in the (K)Ubuntu Menu which, imho, can be really confusing. Is this the way the desktop-team would like it to work?
[07:52] <seb128> no
[07:52] <Amaranth> I think this is maybe more a question for me :)
[07:52] <seb128> that looks like a KDE/kubuntu choice
[07:52] <seb128> GNOME applications could be filtered
[07:52] <seb128> Amaranth: yes, feel free to answer ;)
[07:53] <Amaranth> GNOME and KDE use the same menu system (it's a specification on freedesktop.org) so without a way to filter out apps from the other desktop they will show up in the other desktop's menus. The problem with filtering them out is that some people like using k3b or amarok on Ubuntu or banshee on Kubuntu.
[07:54] <seb128> KDE could have a preference to show GNOME items, that's a request for the kubuntu team
[07:54] <seb128> 
[07:54] <seb128> next?
 QUESTION: What approach do you think you'll take with samba sharing?  fusesmb or some other solution?  Xubuntu seems to have trouble with samba shares, so maybe we can piggyback off of your efforts.  =)
[07:55] <seb128> looks like you are speaking about smb browsing
[07:55] <seb128> gnome-vfs is being rewritten upstream (gvfs)
[07:55] <seb128> the new stack will likely be a low level one like glib and could be use by xubuntu
[07:56] <seb128> with some luck it'll work great ;)
[07:56] <seb128> we don't plan to use fuse afaik, no
[07:56] <seb128> that has been discussed for GNOME but it was not ideal and they prefer not going this way
[07:56] <seb128> 
[07:56] <seb128> next?
 QUESTION: Is there work being done on intergating mobile device syncing and utilisation so as to be plug and play?
[07:57] <seb128> we would love too
[07:57] <seb128> the team is already overworked though
[07:58] <seb128> we will do what we can
[07:58] <seb128> again if somebody has interest to that (and hardware to test), feel free to join the team
[07:58] <seb128> you can make a difference ;)
[07:59] <seb128> it'll go quicker with extra hands for sure
[07:59] <seb128> 
[07:59] <seb128> next?
 QUESTION: why is the desktop team so small, given that this is a big priority for ubuntu?
[07:59] <Amaranth> last question?
[07:59] <seb128> because you need to make money to pay people and Canonical doesn't make that much at the moment
[07:59] <seb128> there is an open Desktop QA position at the moment though
[08:00] <seb128> so it's getting better ;)
[08:00] <seb128> but desktop is not the only area that is overworked
[08:00] <seb128> we got a firefox and an xorg maintainer now
[08:00] <seb128> but there is still packages like openoffice
[08:00] <seb128> kubuntu
[08:00] <seb128> server
[08:00] <seb128> etc
[08:00] <Amaranth> _everybody_ is overworked :)
[08:01] <seb128> thanks everybody for being there
[08:01] <seb128> and for the good questions!
[08:02] <seb128> if you want to join the team to have a look, or contribute in some area, or just discuss feel free
[08:02] <seb128> we are on #ubuntu-desktop most of time during european working hours (and often after that)
[08:02] <seb128> you can also use the ubuntu-desktop list
[08:02] <seb128> it's not that active at the moment because we use IRC a lot
[08:02] <seb128> but we would like to get extra activity there as well to show people cool stuff are happening, etc ;)
[08:03] <Amaranth> *bump* :)
[08:03] <seb128> looks like kiko is next
[08:03] <kiko> hello hello hello
[08:04] <kiko> it's so much easier when it's a Q&A session :)
[08:04] <kiko> hello everyone, welcome to my second UOW session
[08:05] <kiko> (frying wrists to attest to it)
[08:05] <kiko> I'd like to do a quick overview of blueprint, what it's useful for, why you want to use it for your own projects, and then have more or less half the session for questions
[08:05] <kiko> I'm more interested in your questions, in particular because I want you to help us decide where we want to move blueprint next
[08:06] <kiko> but let's start from the beginning.
[08:06] <kiko> I joined canonical 3 years ago because I wanted to help the Launchpad team scale and deliver on-time
[08:07] <kiko> one of the problems we had at the time was that it was very difficult to provide everybody with a good idea of what needed to be done, and there wasn't a mechanism to allow us to double-check if the technical plan was in line with the requirements
[08:07] <kiko> one of the solutions we put into place at the time was having written specifications produced
[08:07] <kiko> now I come from a software engineering background
[08:07] <kiko> and was really familiar with spec processes and how horribly heavyweight they usually are
[08:08] <kiko> so we all made a serious effort to ensure that the process was as lightweight as possible
[08:08] <kiko> basically all you needed to do was write down a summary, rationale, one or more use cases, and a strategical and technical argument for moving ahead with it
[08:09] <kiko> the spec would be written by an engineer or by a customer or by both in concert
[08:09] <kiko> and once written you'd have a sign-off process in which the spec would be approved and ready to be scheduled for work
[08:09] <kiko> this caught on and by the end of the year we had a lot of different projects using specifications to define and track their work
[08:10] <kiko> we used wikis to store the docs, and used little wiki tags to specify metadata about the documents themselves
[08:10] <kiko> now this was high-overhead in management, and at the beginning of 2006 Mark set out to write a better specification management system, which is where Blueprint comes from.
[08:11] <kiko> Blueprint is just a cute name for a specification, though my friend SteveA says it's the proper noun to be used in this context
[08:11] <kiko> and essentially, what the Launchpad blueprint tracker does is capture and track metadata related to a textual document
[08:12] <kiko> the actual document itself can be kept anywhere, and while there are plans to offer a spec hosting facility as part of Launchpad, you can keep the specs wherever it is convenient for you to maintain
[08:12] <kiko> the blueprint tracker requires only you have a URL to point to.
[08:13] <kiko> there is quite an assortment of metadata that can be associated to a particular spec, and I don't want to go through an exhaustive list
[08:13] <kiko> but effectively you can track separately:
[08:13] <kiko> - people: author, approver, developer
[08:13] <kiko> - priorities and target series and release
[08:14] <kiko> - status of document completion
[08:14] <kiko> - status of implementation
[08:14] <kiko> - whether or not the direction of the document is approved
[08:14] <kiko> - any bugs which are related or relevant to the spec
[08:15] <kiko> in association with the specification concept, Launchpad has one additional feature that is useful for managing events around specifications, and that's the sprint management system
[08:15] <kiko> the sprint management system was born totally out of the need to better coordinate Canonical's own meetings
[08:16] <kiko> but perhaps unsurprisingly a number of other teams and OSS projects get together regularly to plan ahead and to specify solutions to existing problems
[08:16] <kiko> the idea behind the sprint tracker is to help organize people and timeslots for discussing different specifications
[08:16] <kiko> it's cool that in a way this ensures that some written record of the sprint itself survives
[08:17] <kiko> but it's also a massive help when you have a large number of participants and want to maximize the value of the meeting to people, ensuring that they are able to attend the meetings they would appreciate and contribute to the most
[08:18] <kiko> soooo
[08:18] <kiko> that is a general overview of blueprint, the launchpad application.
[08:18] <kiko> in a way blueprint is one of the least interconnected apps in Launchpad, because a blueprint is associated to one single project (distribution or upstream)
[08:19] <kiko> but there is richness in the way it links to the Launchpad population
[08:19] <kiko> and also to bugs and other specs (via dependency graphs) registered in Launchpad
[08:20] <kiko> ah
[08:20] <kiko> I didn't mention that specs have subscribers, which will get notified of changes to the specification (through a cunning robot subscriber) or to its metadata
[08:20] <kiko> specs also have whiteboard that reviewers and developers can use to communicate status
[08:21] <kiko> finally, specs can be linked to implementation bzr branches
[08:21] <kiko> which allows you to hop from requirements to code in a simple step
[08:21] <kiko> and which allows you to get great traceability inside your project.
[08:21] <kiko> finally I want to spend a minute or two to discuss why specs might be useful for your project.
[08:22] <kiko> so the reason why Canonical and Ubuntu decided to use specifications is related to the problem we all face in OSS
[08:22] <kiko> and that's the fact that we have very little face to face time, and a lot of complex and detailed issues that need to be looked at and solved.
[08:23] <kiko> specs are really a great way to convey this knowledge across a distributed team
[08:23] <kiko> allowing people to collaborate on specifying the problem and its use cases
[08:23] <kiko> and then taking stabs at providing alternative solutions to the problem, in increasing detail
[08:23] <kiko> they are also easy to write, which lets people just kick one off by writing a few sentences on a text document
[08:24] <kiko> (ease of starting a spec is part of the reason the process was so successful at Canonical, IMO)
[08:24] <kiko> specs allow us to try and manage the ambiguity that exists in other communication
[08:25] <kiko> and also allows us to stack up a repository of useful developer documentation about individual features
[08:25] <kiko> when a new hacker joins the Launchpad team, part of his initial time is spent reading through existing specifications
[08:25] <kiko> and in hindsight their comments are often surprising
[08:26] <kiko> because they will have seen how bits were proposed and how they effectively implemented and rolled out
[08:26] <kiko> it's fascinating
[08:26] <kiko> aaaaaaaanyway
[08:27] <kiko> I believe that any project which is larger than two people can really benefit from having written documents that describe how and why its new features are designed
[08:27] <kiko> and starting with Launchpad's blueprint tracker makes that easy
[08:27] <kiko> so you can join when you like and try it out without committing to moving your docs en-masse.
[08:27] <kiko> finally, we can help assist migrate your specs into Launchpad
[08:28] <kiko> and with that remove a barrier to adoption that you may find with the tool
[08:28] <kiko> there's a lot more I'd like to discuss, but this is the general overview of Launchpad Blueprints
[08:30] <kiko> I'd like to at this time request interesting, controversial, difficult and unexpected questions
[08:30] <kiko> about blueprints in particular
[08:30] <kiko> but also about launchpad, and if time allows, to the incredible world of professional cycling
[08:30] <kiko> err where did that come from?
[08:30] <kiko> blueprints and launchpad I meant
 QUESTION: How do you migrate external specs to Launchpad?
[08:32] <kiko> samgee, we have a spec importer that we massage into the metadata format that your spec system offers
[08:33] <kiko> in the simplest case it just registers remote URLs with a name and a person
[08:33] <kiko> but there are richer alternatives if you have a metadata format encoded
[08:33] <kiko> such as Python's PEPs
[08:33] <kiko> or Zope's specifications
[08:34] <kiko> the custom code is managed by us, but if you have specs you'd like to import, irc-ping or email me and we'll sort it out for you.
[08:34] <kiko> NEXT
[08:34] <kiko> 
 QUESTION: I understand that Launchpad and Blueprints is mainly designed for developers, but are there also ways for non-developers/non-coders to get involved?
[08:35] <kiko> definitely yes
[08:35] <kiko> in a way neither Launchpad nor Blueprints are /really/ for hardcore developers
[08:35] <kiko> developers are an important user group for the bug tracker and the code management system and in some ways to blueprints
[08:35] <kiko> but more often than not we have end-users, customers or managers involved in producing and enginering specifications
[08:36] <kiko> sure there is some level of technical ability necessary
[08:36] <kiko> but even without technical proficiency you can do well in presenting a rationale and end-user use cases which an enginner can work on afterwards
[08:37] <kiko> end-users should definitely be involved in defining specs
[08:37] <kiko> and I look forward to more of them participating.
[08:37] <kiko> 
 QUESTION: Does either launchpad or blueprint support things like WebDAV/CalDAV/RSS for extenstion to/from outside sites or desktop apps?
[08:37] <kiko> we do have RSS export of certain bits of data
[08:38] <kiko> blueprint I don't believe does, but it'd be easy to write and export
[08:38] <kiko> so that you could try the latest blueprints registered and changed
[08:38] <kiko> and a person's currently assigned set of blueprints
[08:38] <kiko> in general Launchpad will evolve to be more machine-friendly this year, after the 1.0 release.
[08:39] <kiko> 
 QUESTION: Is Blueprint only for textual specifications or also for graphical ones like UML?
[08:39] <kiko> you can track basically /anything/ which can be made available via a URL
[08:39] <kiko> we don't really look at the contents of the URL today, though we may do some things optionally
[08:40] <kiko> we won't relax the fact that you can point to any URL from there, though.
[08:40] <kiko> 
[08:40] <Amaranth> QUESTION: What projects are using Launchpad/Blueprints other than Ubuntu?
[08:41] <kiko> whew good one
[08:41] <kiko> check some of these out:
[08:41] <kiko> https://blueprints.beta.launchpad.net/tangocms/+spec/translation-files
[08:41] <kiko> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/agfxmbcs/+spec/comments
[08:42] <kiko> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/leap/+spec/leap-hsm-history-transition
[08:42] <Amaranth> Perhaps I should narrow that to "large projects" :)
[08:43] <kiko> aha
[08:43] <kiko> you want to get tricky
[08:43] <kiko> so Launchpad uses blueprints
[08:43] <Amaranth> I remember hearing about zope and python, for example.
[08:43] <kiko> and while I don't think the Zope specs have been finally imported they are also set on using blueprints for it.
[08:43] <kiko> we have a spec importer for Python PEPs that we will put in action later this year
[08:44] <kiko> not so many projects formalize specs
[08:44] <kiko> but I bet that as we move on more of the ones that choose to will find Launchpad to be a good alternative
[08:44] <kiko> 
 QUESTION: How does the karma system work?
[08:44] <Amaranth> moving into "generic launchpad" now
[08:45] <kiko> aieee
[08:45] <kiko> you really want to get me fired
[08:45] <kiko> the canonical description is https://help.canonical.com/KarmaCalculation
[08:45] <kiko> currently we decay karma throughout the year
[08:46] <kiko> while I know it doesn't decay rapidly I don't know exactly what the speed is
[08:47] <kiko> but nominally we want to ensure that people stay active on the system to retain the privileges that more kama entails.
[08:47] <kiko> 
[08:48] <Amaranth> QUESTION: Why is Launchpad so awesome? :)
[08:49] <kiko> that looks like a question looking for a karma boost!
[08:50] <Amaranth> ok, i think i have a good last question since we're almost out of time
[08:50] <kiko> I think launchpad is very cool because it's the first time we've actually tried hard in OSS to provide a good way for projects to share and communicate between themselves.
[08:50] <kiko> intra-project communication has always been a strength in OSS
[08:50] <kiko> but inter-project is much harder, and can give us the benefits if we find out how.
[08:51] <kiko> 
[08:52] <Amaranth> QUESTION: What do you want to see for launchpad in the future? What plans do you have for launchpad in the next 6 months, etc?
[08:52] <kiko> phew!
[08:53] <kiko> I'd like to see OOPSes and timeouts down to zero; currently we're really good but I liked it when we were perfect.
[08:53] <kiko> this requires the translations side of things being refactored, among other things
[08:53] <kiko> in terms of features, there are a lot of things I want to see done.
[08:53] <kiko> - comprehensive external bugtracker linking and communication
[08:53] <kiko> - searching through translations
[08:53] <kiko> - end-user package repositories
[08:54] <kiko> - bzr integration throughout
[08:54] <kiko> - better management of the project registry
[08:54] <kiko> - more interactive UI designs
[08:54] <kiko> there are a lot of specs registered on the launchpad project
[08:54] <kiko> if you don't believe me, see
[08:55] <kiko> ...
[08:55] <kiko> (Intarnet!)
[08:55] <Amaranth> haha
[08:55] <kiko> https://blueprints.beta.launchpad.net/launchpad-project
[08:55] <Amaranth> (most of us can't see the beta version)
[08:55] <kiko> for an idea of how many items are lined up and pending release
[08:56] <kiko> grumble
[08:56] <kiko> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/launchpad-project
[08:56] <kiko> that's what I meant!
[08:56] <kiko> 
[08:58] <kiko> okay, since you didn't let me discuss how flecha has finished three times in the top three for the past three years in paris-roubaix
[08:58] <kiko> I will thank you all for our time and attention
[08:58] <kiko> and invite you to come along to #launchpad and ask me to import all your specs!
[08:59] <kiko> there are a lot of friendly launchpad developers around that can help you with your migration if you have made up your mind
[08:59] <kiko> and we can set up evaluations on test servers if you want to see what things are like.
[08:59] <kiko> let me know via IRC or email (kiko@canonical.com) if there's anything I can do for you
[09:00] <kiko> and enjoy the next session.. but remember that while enjoying yourselves you should not share needles!
[09:00] <Amaranth> maxamillion, j1mc: You're on
[09:00] <maxamillion> Amaranth: thank you
[09:00] <j1mc> Thanks, Amaranth
[09:01] <maxamillion> hello every, my name is Adam Miller and I will be standing in for Cody Somerville today for he has unfortunately fallen ill
[09:01] <maxamillion> I have worked along side Cody for some time now and for those parties interested, my credentials are listed https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdamMiller
[09:02] <maxamillion> I would also like to introduce Jim Campbell, lead of our xubuntu-iso testing team and heavily involved with many aspects of the community aside from bug traige and his wiki page is located: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/j1mc
[09:04] <maxamillion> now there are a few things we would like to cover for the day: community involvement, myths to be put to rest, our structure, future plans, and some others along the way
[09:05] <maxamillion> to start I would like to put to rest that Xubuntu is only for those with computers of lesser hardware, while we do attempt to always keep the distribution lightweight while keeping a level of feature set that is up to par, that doesn't mean Xubuntu is only for low end hardware
[09:05] <maxamillion> I personally run Xubuntu on my work desktop that has the following specifications: AMD Athlon64 X2 4600+, 2gb DDR2 XMS2 Pro Ram, XFX nv7900gtx
[09:06] <maxamillion> Another myth that seems to continue to come up is that Xubuntu isn't affiliated with Ubuntu and is more of a pseudo-fork like Fluxbuntu, which is false
[09:07] <maxamillion> our developers work along side the ubuntu core devs, our website shares server space with ubuntu among many other aspects of our project that works in coordination with the main Ubuntu project
[09:08] <maxamillion> Next, I would like to speak about our community involvement (Details can be found: http://www.xubuntu.org/devel)
[09:08] <maxamillion> (please forgive our current CSS issues, we are in the works of a complete website overhaul)
[09:09] <maxamillion> We would like to encourage to joining of the Users-mailing list (https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-users)
[09:10] <maxamillion> One of the biggest things we are noticing is that users who are newer or that don't have technical or programming skills tend to feel a little offset by joining up with the contribution to the project and we would like to invite everyone at any skill level to join our community
[09:12] <maxamillion> for those who lack programming skills documentation and bug traige/testing is a very positive contribution to the project that we are constantly looking for new members to help with and those who are rather new and are interested in getting involved might benefit from working along side those with more experience
[09:13] <maxamillion> for a moment, i am going to give the floor to j1mc as he is the head of our testing team and i have started to cover that aspect of the Xubuntu project
[09:13] <j1mc> hi all.  as maxamillion said, there are a lot of ways to get involved with the xubuntu project.
[09:14] <j1mc> one way, is through ISO testing.
[09:14] <j1mc> what is ISO testing, and why do we need it?
[09:14] <j1mc> as the ubuntu community has grown, there has been a lot more activity for our core developers to focus on, and so they have started to shift iso testing to the community.
[09:15] <j1mc> so prior to releases (or release milestones), community testers perform test installations of the soon-to-be-released ISOs.
[09:16] <j1mc> it's a great way to get involved, and it only requires a spare hard drive, a few CD's, and a bit of your time.
[09:16] <j1mc> i'll provide links for that in a moment, but another way to get involved, is through documentation work.
[09:17] <maxamillion> testing information for Xubuntu can be found at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing
[09:18] <maxamillion> some examples of past testing and how the process occurs can be found: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Feisty
[09:18] <j1mc> thanks, max
[09:18] <maxamillion> we also converse about testing alot in the xubuntu developers mailing lists along with use of launchpad for bug triage
[09:18] <j1mc> there's also a great forum section pertaining just to ISO testing: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=201
[09:18] <maxamillion> j1mc: anytime :)
[09:19] <j1mc> documentation is another area where people can get involved.  even if you don't know docbook-xml
[09:20] <j1mc> one of the ways in which people can get involved is through simply proofreading the documentation, and providing bug reports off of the documentaiton packages.
[09:21] <j1mc> perhaps the best thing about xubuntu is that those who want to get involved, can do so easily.
[09:21] <j1mc> all you have to do is make yourself known, step up, and not be afraid to get your hands dirty  :-)
[09:22] <j1mc> for end users, i think that most people find it a bit refreshing that the #xubuntu irc channel isn't as "hectic" as the #ubuntu channel, and it's easy to get your questions answered there.  :-)
[09:22] <maxamillion> another thing we are currently working on within the community as kind of a "case study" for documentation presentation is the Xubuntu-Welcome-Center
[09:23] <maxamillion> information on that can be found at https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-welcome-centre and one of the developers has hosted a wiki that represents the basic layout of the application along with some content (but note the wiki lacks a scroll bar for the content) which is found here http://welcome.sheep.art.pl/
[09:24] <j1mc> ok . . .   at this time, we'd like to open it up to questions
 QUESTION: do you have a mentoring team where people get appointed to a mentor to help guide them through?
[09:25] <maxamillion> we have actually recently had the project adopted and recieve some support and packaging (and i believe inclusion) in the baltix linux distribution which has shown to be positive feedback that the project might find its way into feisty+1
[09:25] <j1mc> i'll take that . . .
[09:25] <maxamillion> ok
[09:25] <j1mc> we don't currently have a mentoring team as such, but . . .
[09:26] <j1mc> a number of the devs and key contributors have been very helpful to those wishing to help out.
[09:27] <j1mc> it depends on what you're looking for, though . . .   if you're looking for a mentor in terms of helping out with something non-xubuntu-specific, we may direct you to that person to lead your way . . .
[09:27] <j1mc> next question
[09:27] <j1mc> heh . . . thanks, cody.  :)
[09:28] <maxamillion> Everyone, i would like to introduce the man of the hour ... Cody Somerville
[09:28] <maxamillion> somerville32: i'm glad you were able to make it even though you aren't feeling well
[09:28] <Amaranth> put in a blank line when you're ready for another question
[09:29] <j1mc> .
[09:29] <maxamillion> 
 QUESTION: Are there any plans to include programs capable of browsing smb shares by default in future releases?
[09:29] <j1mc> this is something that we want very badly.
[09:30] <j1mc> we are looking at ways to accomplish this, but don't have a definite plan for how it will be implemented yet, though.
[09:30] <Amaranth> gvfs ftw :)
[09:30] <j1mc> i even asked a question about it during today's ubuntu-desktop session, and we think that we may have an option . . .   yes,... gvfs
[09:31] <maxamillion> there has been talk of possibly including pyNeighborhood as a secondary program that would allow them to be mounted and then browsed from within Thunar but at the same time there is a group of developers that is looking into the creation of a smb share browser plugin for Thunar using fusesmb and if the latter were to occur, we aren't entirely sure about when it would be completed and released stable
[09:31] <j1mc> .
[09:31] <maxamillion> 
 QUESTION: What are some of the latest cool features in the Xfce 4.4 stable desktop environment release?
[09:32] <maxamillion> well, that's a very good question and i would love to walk everyone through the official xfce tour at this time: http://www.xfce.org/about/tour
[09:33] <maxamillion> there is the addition of desktop icons (by popular demand)
[09:34] <maxamillion> a substantial amount of the latest Thunar features we were actually able to include since dapper due to the Xubuntu inclusion of xfce4.4 release candidates (with modification for optimal stability)
[09:34] <maxamillion> many of the issues that the mousepad text editor has had have been resolved
[09:35] <maxamillion> another thing i would like to announce is that the xfwm4 now has compositing by defualt
[09:35] <maxamillion> for those who are unaware of compisiting, that is the "transparent window" feature that so many users post in screenshots
[09:36] <maxamillion> xfwm4 (which is the window manager by default for the xfce desktop environment) has this capability built in along with "3d shadow"
[09:36] <maxamillion>  casting*
[09:37] <maxamillion> this is all built in and all that is needed is for your x11 configuration to have the compositor extention enabled
[09:39] <maxamillion> another thing is that the panel is rather confurable and extendable, its completely gnome-plugin compliant (though the gnome-libs overhead discourages the use of this feature in many instances) and there is even a python implementation so for all those python programmers out there, here's your panel plugin development platform :)
[09:39] <maxamillion> and i think that pretty much sums it up
[09:39] <maxamillion> 
 QUESTION: Are there any plans to make theme installation simpler/more user-friendly?
[09:40] <j1mc> hmmmm . . .  you mean it's not very user friendly to install icon packages into your /usr/share/icons folder?  :-P
[09:41] <j1mc> this is certainly something that we'd like to have, but we don't have specific plans for implementation at this time.  thank you very much for the suggestion, though.
[09:41] <j1mc> one thing i'd like to note is that xfce can use most gnome themes . . .
[09:42] <j1mc> at this time, they just need to be manually placed intot he proper folders.
[09:42] <j1mc> we are looking at implementing a themes wizard for feisty +1, though.
[09:42] <j1mc> 
 QUESTION: Are there any plans that will put documentation for installed app's and features in easy access for user on the desktop or in the start menu?
[09:44] <maxamillion> BFTD: yes, as i mentioned earlier we are working on the Xubuntu-Welcome-Center which is essentially the "welcome to xubuntu, find help and help info here" application that would probably suite your needs ... information can be found: https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-welcome-centre and the wiki here: http://welcome.sheep.art.pl/
[09:44] <maxamillion> illu45: that is another thing we have found to be a popular topic in the irc channels and i think there might be a spec put out to write a simply pyGTK application in order to assist with theme installation
[09:45] <maxamillion> sorry about that
[09:45] <maxamillion> 
 QUESTION: Is Xubuntu usage really increasing a lot faster than Ubuntu and Kubuntu usage?
[09:47] <Amaranth> *cricket*
[09:47] <j1mc> without access to the download stats, it's difficult to say.  just looking at the distrowatch stats, though. . .
[09:47] <maxamillion> no, not entirely ... we have actually started to gain steam as more and more users want more speed from their computers in retrospect
[09:47] <maxamillion> < MRjinx> QUESTION: While it is not difficult to install from the repos,  will a network manager such wifi-radar or netwrok manager be  included by default for wireless networks?
[09:47] <j1mc> we are doing fairly well.
[09:48] <maxamillion> i am glad the wifi question was asked, we are actually currently looking at two different wifi manager projects that are in consideration for inclusion into the distro, one is being developed by an actual xfce developer and is called airtool, information here: http://spuriousinterrupt.org/projects/airconfig
[09:49] <maxamillion> the other one ... well the other one is called WiCD, but their website appears to be down at the moment ... the link is http://compwiz18.blackhole.cx/wicd/wb/
[09:50] <maxamillion> we would include network-manager-gnome if it didn't weigh do heavy on so many gnome libraries so for now we will be looking for alternatives and we hope to have a wireless application installed by default in feisty+!
[09:50] <maxamillion> +1*
[09:50] <maxamillion> 
 QUESTION: i haven't tried xubuntu 7.04 yet, does it have the features in ubuntu 7.04 like desktop effects and restricted drivers manager?
[09:52] <j1mc> Xubuntu does support beryl, and does include the same restricted drivers manager that is included in ubuntu and kubuntu
[09:53] <j1mc> *beryl or compiz . . . or whatever they decide to call it since they have merged.
[09:53] <maxamillion> heh .. "merged"
[09:53] <maxamillion> anyhoo, yes ... we include the same drivers and the restricted driver manager
[09:53] <maxamillion> 
[09:53] <Amaranth> maxamillion: I can have a nice discussion about the 'merged' project with you later. :)
[09:54] <Amaranth> QUESTION: What are your plans for gutsy? gutsy+1?
[09:54] <maxamillion> Amaranth: i am actually rather interested because i get different info from different developers blogs
[09:54] <Amaranth> Should be a nice segue to closing comments
[09:55] <somerville32> Over the next two releases, we are looking forward to working towards providing a more functional desktop while maintaining our light-weight mandate.
[09:55] <maxamillion> currently the main plans the have been speced out for gutsy is 1)smb browse support in some form or fasion 2)wifi manager inclusion 3)theme installer 4)possible addition of some default games 5)possible inclusion of claws-mail given their feature spec meets ours by release time
[09:56] <maxamillion> but at the same time, we havent hosted the developers meeting to make these concreate and are more likely than not subject to change over the next couple of weeks
[09:57] <somerville32> As always, we will continue the offer the cutting edge development offered from the development branch while ensuring integrity and stability.
[09:57] <maxamillion> it seems we are out of time, I would like to personally thank everyone on behalf of the Xubuntu team(s) for coming to our open week session and if anyone has any more questions we would be more than happy to have you in #xubuntu where we can further answer your queries
[09:58] <Amaranth> Hrm
[09:58] <Amaranth> I expected the closing to take more than 30 seconds :)
[09:58] <maxamillion> oh, sorry ... i just saw it was UTC2000
[09:58] <Amaranth> list of places of contact, fall for help, anything?
[09:58] <Amaranth> err, call
[09:59] <Amaranth> you've got about a minute left according to my clock :)
[09:59] <j1mc> We have several irc channels, including #xubuntu, #xubuntu-devel,
[09:59] <somerville32> Aas already started, we're very interested in getting users involved in contributing back to Xubuntu.
[09:59] <maxamillion> also, user mailing lists: http://www.xubuntu.org/help and developer mailing lists http://www.xubuntu.org/devel
[09:59] <somerville32> There are two mailing lists available: xubuntu-users and xubuntu-devel
[10:00] <maxamillion> :)
[10:00] <somerville32> See links above.
[10:00] <maxamillion> further information on both topics (help and devel) are available via the links posted
[10:00] <Amaranth> The Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> || Current session: Documentation team - Rich Johnson
[10:00] <somerville32> Furthermore, there is a comprehensive page available at http://xubuntu.org/devel on how to get involved.
[10:00] <Amaranth> err
[10:01] <maxamillion> feel free to post questions on the mailing lists, our community is wide spread accross different time zones, there is normally someone always there for a quick reply on the mailing lists or in the irc channels willing to help
[10:01] <Amaranth> Thanks guys, I'll have to try Xubuntu now. :)
[10:01] <maxamillion> Amaranth: thank you :)
[10:01] <maxamillion> once again ... thank you all and feel free to come to #xubuntu for further questions
[10:02] <Amaranth> nixternal: you're up
[10:02] <nixternal> thanks maxamillion and j1mc for a great talk on Xubuntu!
[10:02] <nixternal> OK, here we go. I have created a wiki page for this talk located at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RichardJohnson/OpenWeekDocTeamNotes
[10:02] <maxamillion> nixternal: thanks :)
[10:02] <nixternal> Amaranth: if any of my posts get cut off, please let me know. thanks
[10:02] <nixternal> here we go!
[10:03] <nixternal> = Who am I? =
[10:03] <nixternal> My name is Richard Johnson. I am an Ubuntu member as well as a member of other teams within the Ubuntu community. I am known mostly around here as the Kubuntu and KDE documentation guy. So because of this, I will be talking to you all today about the Ubuntu Documentation Project. * Wiki Page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RichardJohnson * LP Page:   https://launchpad.net/~nixternal
[10:03] <nixternal> copy/paste worked great there :)
[10:03] <nixternal> = What is the Ubuntu Documentation Project? =
[10:03] <nixternal> The project was created in order to create system documentation for the Ubuntu operating system. As time went on and Ubuntu matured, the scope of the project has widened. Currently the Ubuntu Documentation Project encompasses everything from the wikis to system documentation for each Ubuntu partner project (Kubuntu, Edubuntu, and Xubuntu).
[10:04] <nixternal> = Who is the Ubuntu Documentation Project? =
[10:04] <nixternal> The project is comprised of the Ubuntu Documentation Team which is completely made up of volunteers. The core team is https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc however many others contribute freely to the documentation all the time.
[10:04] <nixternal> The core team spends a majority of their time working on system documentation whereas the volunteers tend to start off adding documentation to the community wiki (https://help.ubuntu.com/community) and eventually work their way up to the core team.
[10:04] <nixternal> = What types of documentation does the team work on? =
[10:05] <nixternal> There are essentially two types of documentation that the team produces. 1. System documentation - this is written in a markup language called DocBook/XML, and is hosted in the documentation repository. 2. Online documentation - composed of an HTML version of #1, and a community driven wiki (https://help.ubuntu.com/community).
[10:05] <nixternal> = Why are there 2 wikis? = * https://wiki.ubuntu.com is looked at mainly as the developer wiki. This wiki is meant to store specifications and team information as well as personal wiki pages for members and future members.
[10:05] <nixternal>  * https://help.ubuntu.com/community is the cmmunity documentation wiki. Any and everyone is more than welcome to add their documentation to that wiki, or improve the documentatiton that is already there. This is the wiki to go for when you need help with your system.
[10:06] <nixternal> = How does one contribute to the project? =
[10:06] <nixternal> Diving in and trying things out is the best way to begin getting involved. If you have edited a ton of wiki pages, or have experience with technical documentation, then maybe you should go ahead and download our repository (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository) and start getting familiar with DocBook/XML and the way we rock.
[10:07] <nixternal> We have even included a validation tool in our repository to help you ensure the documentation you have created is logically valid. If you are confused or have any questions, please feel free to ask in #ubuntu-doc or on the mailing list (ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com). Be patient, as sometimes the IRC channel may be dead, however the mailing list is usually quick to provide a response.
[10:08] <nixternal> = What is this DocBook/XML you keep blabbing about? =
[10:08] <nixternal> DocBook is a DTD (Document Type Definition) which includes a very popular set of tags for describing books, articles, and other prose documents. XML (eXtensible Markup Language) is a general purpose, free and open source, markup language. Both are fairly easy to pick up and learn. More information on DocBook is available at http://docbook.org/tdg/en/html/docbook.html.
[10:09] <nixternal> Addon: For those of you familiar with HTML will pick up XML and DocBook fairly easy. Those of you without HTML experience will probably tend to pick it up a little easier
[10:09] <nixternal> Addon: The reason being you won't confuse the markup tags between the two since there are at times some similarity.
[10:09] <nixternal> = I am not all up technically enough to document, what else can I do? =
[10:09] <nixternal> Proof reading is a great way to get started as well. This will not only find our mistakes, but it will allow you to familiarize yourself with the ways that we do things. You can look through our documentation via the repository, or by visiting http://doc.ubuntu.com and reading through the documentation that gets built nightly via the repositories. Note this is a staging area and not a final release area.
[10:09] <nixternal> Also note the wiki sections below.
[10:10] <nixternal> well in this case, the wiki sections coming up :)
[10:10] <nixternal> = What are the key tasks with the documentation team? =
[10:10] <nixternal> There are actually quite a few tasks, and they continue to grow with each release. So due to this, we definitely have the need for more contributors. As it stands, these are just some of the key tasks:
[10:10] <nixternal> * Improving the navigability and readability of the help (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp)
[10:11] <nixternal> * Incorporating material from the Official Ubuntu Book into appropriate sections in the system documentation, amending the style accordingly.
[10:11] <nixternal> * Addressing areas which are missing from the documentation, in particular by reviewing material on the wiki/forum/mailing lists and converting it to DocBook for inclusion in the system documentation.
[10:11] <nixternal> * Updating existing information which is no longer valid due to inclusion of new features in each release.
[10:11] <nixternal> Addon: Of course there is more as the community matures, but these are just a few of our more popular and frequented tasks.
[10:12] <nixternal> lol
[10:12] <nixternal> time for everyons favorite, the Ubuntu wiki(s)!
[10:12] <nixternal> s/everyons/everyones/
[10:12] <nixternal> = Wiki Documentation =
[10:12] <nixternal> Contribution is as easy as logging into the wiki using your launchpad account, and then correct the errors you find in the documents. Read existing documents to become familiar with the wiki markup which is very easy to do. Some of you may have noticed = Question =, that is wiki markup which is similar to the <h1> or main header in HTML.
[10:13] <nixternal> Addon: or <sect1 id="ubuntu-documentation-rocks" status="perfecto"> :)
[10:14] <nixternal> that was for you XML and DocBook fans right there. Which I see maybe 1 or 2 of :)
[10:14] <nixternal> The community documentation wiki also needs a little spring cleaning as well. So you can visit https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryCleanup and go through and proof the pages, and make them conform to the Wiki Guide at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide. After you have edited and cleaned up a few pages, apply to join the Wiki Team at https://beta.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki.
[10:15] <nixternal> = Is there any one task you really need help with on the wiki? =
[10:15] <nixternal> Cleaning out the CategoryCleanup category on the wiki is a big task for wiki pages at this time. You can see which documentation is in need of some cleaning. Refer to the previous topic under Wiki Documentation.
[10:15] <nixternal> Addon: *ALL* community documentation concerning the binary drivers, such as ATI and NVidia, definitely need some love.
[10:16] <nixternal> Addon: Each one of those documents present a number of confusing methods for users who are not only new to Ubuntu, but also to Linux in general.
[10:17] <nixternal> Addon: WiFi is another section of concern, seeing that there are also many different ways to skin the same cat.
[10:17] <nixternal> Addon: We need dial-up modem experience and documentation as well. The documentation on the wiki currently is very limited. Granted linmodems website contains a lot of the necessary information, just not in an Ubuntu way.
[10:18] <nixternal> = Like system documentation are there key tasks for the wiki? =
[10:18] <nixternal> Sure there are. Here are just a few of them now:
[10:18] <nixternal> * Improve the self-maintainability of the wiki by introducing easy tools for quality assurance (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance). This spec needs ideas, discussion and eventually some code.
[10:18] <nixternal> * Doing quality assurance to ensure users are given reliable information and can quickly identify how reliable a page is.
[10:18] <nixternal> * Improving existing material and adding new material to the wiki, in particular drawing on the immense resources offered by the forums (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/forum).
[10:19] <nixternal> Addon: This is where my previous addons come into play. The better our documentation, community wiki wise, the easier it is for a new user to switch as seemlessly as possible. With your help, I am sure this can be achieved.
[10:20] <nixternal> A main goal is to bring the system documentation and the online documentation closer and closer together, so eventually it is easy for the system documentation to draw on contributions via the wiki, and users to browse and search all of the available documentation via a single interface, be it via the online website or the system help viewer. This is a very large goal awaiting the right tools to come together.
[10:21] <nixternal> Addon: The Documentation Team would love to hear ideas on how something like this could be achieved easily, but at the same time have the best functionality, accessibility, and usability one would come to expect from Ubuntu.
[10:21] <nixternal> ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com is a great place to get your ideas heard!
[10:22] <nixternal> = TRANSLATIONS!!! =
[10:22] <nixternal> No question really, but I don't know if you all realize this or not, but translators are one of the largest assets of the Ubuntu community. Ubuntu is known as an operating system with more translations than any other. We can never have enough truthfully, so if you are a translator and are interested in helping out, then you just need to learn the Rosetta translation system (https://launchpad.net/rosetta).
[10:23] <nixternal> Addon and Note: If you notice that some translations are lacking with the 7.04 release, that is in now way a reflection on our translators. During the development phase, it took a little longer to get Rosetta and the Launchpad working correctly due to new technology being implemented.
[10:24] <nixternal> Addon: I would definitely like to thank all of those who helped with translations during the short translation period for 7.04. They rocked hard and fast! I couldn't have asked for more.
[10:24] <nixternal> You can find out how to use that on the Rosetta wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Rosetta). Once you have brushed up on all of this, the docteam documents can be found at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/gutsy/+source/ubuntu-docs. Replace ubuntu-docs with kubuntu-docs, xubuntu-docs, and/or edubuntu-docs accordingly.
[10:25] <nixternal> Note: The Gutsy translations will of course not be available until later in the development cycle
[10:25] <nixternal> Note: So if you go there now, I believe it may either give you an Oops or redirect to Feisty translations.
[10:25] <nixternal> = Conclusion =
[10:26] <nixternal> Thank you for staying awake during this little speech. I hope I was able to provide you with viable information to help you get started. If you come up with any questions, any problems, or whatever, please feel free to contact me anytime (nixternal@ubuntu.com). To contact the team try any of the following:
[10:26] <nixternal>  * IRC - server: chat.freenode.net - port: 8001 - channel: #ubuntu-doc
[10:26] <nixternal>  * Mailing List - ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com - subscribe or read the archives at https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc.
[10:26] <nixternal>  * Wiki - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
[10:26] <nixternal> The floor is now open for questions. Please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat if you haven't already and prefix your questions like =>  QUESTION: I heard Matthew East is really a documentation robot, is this true?
[10:26] <nixternal> Thanks again everyone!
[10:27] <nixternal> ANSWER: I still don't know truthfully :)
[10:28] <nixternal> [    samgee]  QUESTION: What do you mean by 'logical validation' for the documentation? Syntax?
[10:29] <nixternal> samgee: what the tool does is it goes through the xml document and makes sure that you have properly coded the markup.
[10:29] <nixternal> For instance:
[10:29] <nixternal> <sect1 id="test">
Ubuntu Rocks!</para>

[10:29] <nixternal> that is logically incorrect.
[10:30] <nixternal> The reason being that when you do a <sect1...> you need to follow it with a <title>Woohoo</title> prior to the <para></para> tags
[10:30] <nixternal> now this validation tool checks all of the tags and prints out to the screen (i.e. terminal) all of your validation errors
[10:31] <nixternal> The reason we validate is to ensure that the documentation will get built correctly to HTML for one, and two that when you look at the documentation via Yelp it will be formatted correctly and unbroken
[10:31] <nixternal> [    samgee]  QUESTION: Is there a WYSIWYG Dockbook editor?
[10:32] <nixternal> None that I know of unfortunately.
[10:32] <nixternal> the popular editors currently are:
[10:33] <nixternal> gEdit, Kate (has a great XML validation tool built in), Bluefish, Quanta, Komodo (this is a new FREE editor that totally rocks), and truthfully any text editor
[10:33] <nixternal> Emacs and Vim both have great DocBook/XML extensions that will highlight, indent, and some will even word complete as you type.
[10:34] <nixternal> [    samgee]  QUESTION: Is translating the docs different from translating applications (whole text vs. string by string)?
[10:34] <nixternal> Documentation translation will occur on a paragraph or line-by-line occurance
[10:34] <nixternal> or as you said string-by-string
[10:35] <nixternal> From what I have heard it isn't all that time consuming, but it is somewhat tedious. I don't know translations 100%, except for the fact that I manually upload them from time-to-time, hopefully not irritating anyone :)
[10:36] <nixternal> [  Monika|K]  QUESTION: So you say Docbook ist for system documentation and wiki.ubuntu.com is for system documentation; help.ubuntu.com/community is for other documentation - so is wiki.ubuntu.com written in Docbook? :confused:
[10:36] <nixternal> wiki.ubuntu.com is really for developer documentation
[10:37] <nixternal> it used to host all documentation, but it became confusing to new users
[10:37] <nixternal> then again so did adding help.ubuntu.com/community
[10:37] <nixternal> All of our wikis, which are MoinMoin powered, use a wiki syntax or markup
[10:37] <nixternal> this syntax/markup is way different, and actually much easier than DocBook/XML
[10:38] <nixternal> = Hello Monika|K = would create a level 1 heading on the wiki
[10:38] <nixternal>  * This would be a list unorganized list item (i.e., <ul><li>foo</li></ul>)
[10:39] <nixternal> System documentation is all DocBook/XML, and when I say system documentation I mean what you see when you fire up KHelpCenter in Kubuntu, or Yelp in Ubuntu/Xubuntu/Edubuntu
[10:39] <nixternal> In Kubuntu, we have to build out the XML files we create to HTML, whereas with Yelp it will read .xml files natively
[10:40] <nixternal> I apologize for the confusion there
[10:40] <nixternal> ryanakca: IRSSI to get rid of the auto /who on join ;)
[10:41] <nixternal> [    samgee]  QUESTION: Is it a good idea to translate using some service like Babelfish and a spell checker and correcting the remaining errors/untranslated bits or does that have copyright/other issues? Or is it actually slower than doing it manually?
[10:41] <nixternal> I don't think copyright would be an issue with this. Canonical has done a great job in creating the Rosetta system for Launchpad, and since Ubuntu does it, we kind of follow suit
[10:42] <nixternal> I know that the KDE community utilizes Babelfish with KBabel and they also do a great job with translations
[10:43] <nixternal> Time wise I would think it is about the same, because a Babelfish editor and the Rosetta interface actually break down the .pot files the same
[10:43] <nixternal> .pot files being the translation files created using the xml2po command
[10:43] <nixternal> [  Monika|K]  QUESTION: Where does one upload/edit the system documentation?
[10:44] <nixternal> all of our system documentation is located in a Subversion (SVN) repository at https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos
[10:44] <nixternal> under the branches/ directory you will find all of our already released documentation
[10:44] <nixternal> under the trunk/ directory you will find all of the current development documentation that is being worked on
[10:44] <nixternal> in this instance trunk/ is for 7.10 documentation (Gutsy)
[10:45] <nixternal> you can use either Subversion from the command line or use a Subversion GUI client
[10:45] <nixternal> To check out our trunk documentation, ensure you have subversion installed
[10:45] <nixternal> OK, Quick tutorial time!!!
[10:45] <nixternal> If you want to work with the Ubuntu system documentation, here is what you need to do
[10:46] <nixternal> I apologize as I will be covering it from a command line perspective since that is what I do daily :)
[10:46] <nixternal> First things first...You need the applications which the ubuntu-docs depend on. So to get these in one shot, at the command line type the following
[10:46] <nixternal> sudo apt-get build-dep ubuntu-docs
[10:47] <nixternal> this will pull in all of the necessary docbook, xml, poxml, applications and such
[10:47] <nixternal> to see which each application does, type
[10:47] <nixternal> apt-cache show application_name
[10:47] <nixternal> now to download, or checkout our repository, get to a directory where you want to save the checkout too
[10:48] <nixternal> in my case I use /home/nixternal/ubuntu/docs/repos/
[10:48] <nixternal> so once I am there, I do:
[10:49] <nixternal> svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk
[10:49] <nixternal> that will create a trunk/ directory in my current directory which I listed above
[10:49] <nixternal> and in that trunk directory will be everything you need to work on with Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Edubuntu documentation
[10:49] <nixternal> more information about our repository can also be read up on at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
[10:49] <nixternal> [    samgee]  QUESTION: Will Kubuntu be able to natively read .xml in the future?
[10:49] <nixternal> Kubuntu uses the KDE help center known as KHelpCenter
[10:50] <nixternal> it can read .docbook files natively with no problem.
[10:50] <nixternal> So either we can continue building the documentation out to HTML, or we could convert to .docbook filetypes in the future
[10:50] <nixternal> this is being looked into for Gutsy development
[10:50] <nixternal> [  Monika|K]  QUESTION: Can everybody contribute to the system documentation?
[10:50] <nixternal> YES!!! WOOHOO!
[10:51] <nixternal> but...
[10:51] <nixternal> you knew that was coming :)
[10:51] <nixternal> unless you have commit rights on the Subversion repository, you cannot commit directly to the repo
[10:51] <nixternal> but, with Subversion (and Bazaar is we ever switch to it in the future) allows you to create patches very easily
[10:52] <nixternal> When you have downloaded/checked out from the repository, you can make changes to the .xml files locally on your system
[10:52] <nixternal> when you are happy with your changes/fixes, and have ensured they do validate using the validation tool, you can create a quick patch file
[10:53] <nixternal> to do this you would simply type:
[10:53] <nixternal> svn diff > foo_is_bar.diff
[10:53] <nixternal> to make sure you are going to get the correct changes, it is best to run
[10:53] <nixternal> svn stat
[10:53] <nixternal> first to see what all changes you are looking at
[10:54] <nixternal> now if you made changes in trunk/kubuntu/libs and you were in the trunk/ubuntu directory and ran svn stat or svn diff, you wouldn't get anything
[10:54] <nixternal> so what I recommend is to change to the root directory of the repository checkout (trunk/) and svn stat or svn diff
[10:55] <nixternal> now once you have the diff/patch file created, simply email it to ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com and a person with commit rights will check it over and if everything is good to go, commit it to the repository
[10:55] <nixternal> To get commit rights, after you have submitted a few patches which shows that you know what you are doing, and you know your way around Subversion, Matthew East will bug Canonical and tell them to add an account for you.
[10:56] <nixternal> [  ryanakca]  QUESTION: Are the build-deps different for kubuntu docs? 'gnome-doc-utils' is a build-dep for ubuntu-docs, but I would doubt it's required for KDE...
[10:56] <nixternal> it isn't required for KDE, you are correct, however ubuntu-docs contains all of the tools necessary for kubuntu-docs as well
[10:57] <nixternal> if you are unsure, it would never hurt to run
[10:57] <nixternal> sudo apt-get build-dep kubuntu-docs
[10:57] <nixternal> I believe the main files you need would be the docbook-xml (which I messed up recently and didn't have build-deps in the package for kubuntu)
[10:57] <nixternal> xml2po
[10:57] <nixternal> libxml stuff and what not
[10:58] <nixternal> which I believe most is installed ootb with the Ubuntu projects
[10:58] <nixternal> [  ryanakca]  QUESTION: Why doesn't the doc team switch to bazaar?
[10:58] <nixternal> oh man, I will get killed if I don't answer this one correctly, so remind me when I meet you one day ryanakca to repay you for this one :)
[10:59] <nixternal> the Subversion repository works! We do have a Bazaar sandbox and as soon as some little quirks are worked out with Bazaar, I am sure we will switch
[11:00] <nixternal> when? I can't give you a timeline on that. I am sure we will all meet and talk with the LP and Bazaar gurus and work it out then, until then, svn is it for docs :)
[11:00] <nixternal> [  ryanakca]  Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 5.0.0), cdbs, xsltproc, docbook-xsl, docbook-xml, perl, perl-modules, kdelibs-data, kdelibs-bin
[11:00] <nixternal> not a question, but definitely needs an explanation
[11:00] <nixternal> debhelper and cdbs aren't really needed as they are for packaging purposes only
[11:01] <nixternal> *xsl and *xml are definetly needed
[11:01] <nixternal> perl and perl-modules are so that we can use the firefox-translation script (python anybody?)
[11:01] <nixternal> I think that is about it, time is up
[11:01] <nixternal> any questions, I live in #ubuntu-doc, email me at nixternal@ubuntu.com
[11:01] <nixternal> ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
[11:01] <nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
[11:02] <nixternal> thanks again everyone for listening in!
[11:12] <nixternal> HERE IS imbrandon !!
[11:13] <imbrandon> how is everyone tonight
[11:13] <imbrandon> sorry i'm late
[11:13] <imbrandon> nixternal, you wanna field the question ( if there is any )
[11:13] <nixternal> sure
[11:13] <nixternal> I will be back in 10 minutes to field them
[11:13] <imbrandon> k
[11:13] <nixternal> or since you are dead last
[11:13] <nixternal> when you done, just -m the place
[11:13] <nixternal> everyone is cool today!
[11:13] <imbrandon> just -m now, we'll be fine
[11:14] <imbrandon> ok so lets get this rockin
[11:14] <nixternal> ok everyone, when imbrandon says it is question time, get to askin'! :)
[11:14] <imbrandon> everyone doing ok ?
[11:14] <samgee> yeah
[11:14] <imbrandon> sooo what is a resource primer you ask?
[11:14] <imbrandon> basicly an intro on what you can find where
[11:14] <imbrandon> like LP ( launchpad.net ) for bugs
[11:14] <imbrandon> the diffrent areas of the wiki
[11:15] <imbrandon> etc
[11:15] <imbrandon> wow, slow night ?
[11:15] <imbrandon> ok lets do this
[11:16] <imbrandon> I'm Brandon Holtsclaw, a Ubuntu core-dev that works mostly on kubuntu
[11:16] <imbrandon> hows everyones OpenWeek going ?
[11:16] <imbrandon> ( note: its -m here now so you can talk here )
[11:16] <samgee> I'm having fun
[11:17] <imbrandon> [..] 
[11:17] <txwikinger> great, thanks imbrandon
[11:17] <jordiR> yes, great
[11:17] <imbrandon> Great to hear, what kind of session would you all like to see in the next OpenWeek ?
[11:17] <imbrandon> or even between now and then
[11:18] <imbrandon> session*s*
[11:18] <samgee> good question
[11:18] <robotangel> uh, I slept away the day ^^
[11:18] <imbrandon> robotangel, thats ok :) i did yesterday :P
[11:20] <robotangel> btw that's a good question - I could tell which I liked most this time but I haven't any new, creative ideas ^^
[11:21] <samgee> Advocacy 101 or something
[11:21] <jadhog> I'd like to know what the expectations are if we want to do a session? Or how to fully get a devel environment for a language
[11:21] <jadhog> up and running
[11:21] <zorglu_> i got ideas but im no sure they fit in ubuntuschool kindof stuff. like 'how to make your project known', 'how to build a cross plateform package'
[11:22] <Monika|K> I would like one about patching that doesn't assume everybody knows how to do it.
[11:22] <zorglu_> or some newage business guys, explaining the 'new way of the internet'
[11:23] <zorglu_> Monika|K: you have been unsatified by the various motu session ?
[11:23] <samgee> Maybe invite someone from another distro's community to get their perspective on Ubuntu
[11:23] <nixternal> ooh, I like that samgee
[11:23] <zorglu_> Monika|K: even when rereading the session ?
[11:24] <jadhog> Oh status of Language integration on *buntus
[11:24] <nixternal> Monika|K: I am with you on the MOTU session as well. Granted I have been doing MOTU work now for about a year, there are just some things I would like to see done
[11:24] <zorglu_> yep, some debian guys explaining his view on how to collaborate better with ubuntu
[11:24] <zorglu_> Mon
[11:25] <zorglu_> Monika|K: hang around on #ubuntu-motu, they are nice
[11:25] <samgee> zorglu_: I was thinking further away, like Fedora (the _real_ competition)
[11:25] <Monika|K> I liked the MOTU session
[11:25] <jadhog> Oh, How to take a package in RPM format, import it into debs and get it integrated
[11:25] <Monika|K> but there was one about patching and it began with that he assumes everybody knows patching
[11:25] <zorglu_> samgee: and you want a fedora guy to explain that ?
[11:25] <Monika|K> it was only about how it is special/different in Ubuntu
[11:25] <Monika|K> so a different session about patching that doesn't assume that would be nice, too
[11:25] <zorglu_> samgee: personnaly im a bit afraid it would turn into a religious war
[11:26] <jadhog> zorglu_: I agree
[11:26] <Monika|K> Chat sessions with people from other distros would be nice, but not in #ubuntu-classroom / UbuntuOpenWeek
[11:26] <samgee> zorglu_: yeah, but wouldn't the CoC (theoretically) prevent that?
[11:26] <Monika|K> this is about getting people to join in contributing
[11:26] <Monika|K> someone from a different distro could say little about that
[11:27] <zorglu_> samgee: in theory :) coc is the goal, not the day2day reality
[11:28] <samgee> Monika|K: an outside perspective might be usefull to see what we're doing wrong or what they're doing better to attract people
[11:28] <zorglu_> i definitly agree that big people from outside would be cool
[11:28] <robotangel> Monika|K, do you mean "Patching Packages" with pitti?
[11:29] <robotangel> I wasn't as interested in this as I was in some other topics but I think I remember that he even explained the "cd"-cmd
[11:29] <zorglu_> in fact what i like about openweek, is the fact it is like a conference but from home
[11:30] <jadhog> MonikaJK: would it have helped if there had been some material attached to the talk before hand?
[11:30] <zorglu_> i would like to see other conference like that
[11:30] <samgee> robotangel: he explained a lot, but it was pretty fast
[11:30] <habeeb> zorglu_: yes, this Open Week was great.
[11:30] <Monika|K> I think it was that one, robotangel
[11:30] <habeeb> Kinda repeatativ but what the hell..
[11:30] <Monika|K> yes, taht would have been very helpful, jadhog
[11:31] <Monika|K> for many sessions
[11:31] <zorglu_> hmmm btw what about having the speaker doing audio instead of text ?
[11:31] <Monika|K> e.g. nobody even knew what a "resources primer" is supposed to be
[11:31] <habeeb> (imbradon died?)
[11:31] <zorglu_> like the audience could chat on irc, but the speacker would be on audio and the audience would listen to him live ?
[11:31] <Monika|K> I don't know what Screencasting is
[11:31] <Monika|K> and so on
[11:32] <habeeb> Monika|K: screencasting is to answer questiosn with videos instead of text.
[11:32] <habeeb> Check this, Monika|K http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/
[11:32] <Monika|K> ah, thx
[11:32] <zorglu_> Monika|K: screencasting is taking 'what is happening on a computer screen and makeing a video out of it'
[11:33] <zorglu_> ok where are the gurus ?
[11:33] <jadhog> imbrandon wants us to say what we'd like to see this session as well as next Open Week.
[11:33] <zorglu_> imbrandon: what do you think abotu my suggestion to have the speaker doing 'audio' and spreading the stuff via a 'radio' instead of irc ?
[11:33] <jadhog> ;butchers names daily
[11:34] <txwikinger> wow ubuntu-radio
[11:34] <Monika|K> I wouldn't like that
[11:34] <zorglu_> Monika|K: why not ?
[11:34] <Monika|K> most people who are not native English speakers can read English a lot better than understand someone speaking
[11:34] <txwikinger> let's see if the marketing  provides the UWN in the future as mp3 or livestream
[11:35] <Monika|K> one can't join the session in the background at work
[11:35] <samgee> I think that's a good idea because IRC scares a lot of newbies
[11:35] <Monika|K> one can't go away for a few minutes and then return and read the stuff one missed
[11:35] <ryanakca> hmm... what happened to imbrandon's lesson?
[11:35] <jadhog> ;agrees
[11:35] <habeeb> Monika|K: good points.
[11:35] <zorglu_> Monika|K: all valid points
[11:35] <Monika|K> I think IRC scares few newbies
[11:35] <orientalexpress> hi there i got abit of a problem and wondering if you guys can help me please ?
[11:35] <ryanakca> yeah
[11:35] <Monika|K> and the instructions given are clear
[11:35] <Monika|K> IRC tutorials are linked
[11:35] <txwikinger> if it is recorded you can listen to it later too
[11:36] <zorglu_> Monika|K: i could make good point on audio too. i guess both format are valid
[11:36] <samgee> it scared me and I still feel a little uncomfortable with it
[11:36] <Monika|K> yes, but you could only listen to it entirely, not join in after missing five minutes
[11:36] <habeeb> First of all, UOW requires much more publicity. I mean in the forums there are 4000 users online at any given time, and only 300 in this chatroom.
[11:36] <txwikinger> I like to have something I can listen to when I am driving :D
[11:36] <Monika|K> nobody would listen for seven hours
[11:36] <habeeb> brb.
[11:36] <Monika|K> but seven hours of IRC is not unheard of
[11:37] <ryanakca> orientalexpress: ask in #ubuntu
[11:37] <Monika|K> people with slow internet connection can't use audio
[11:37] <Monika|K> at least not so well
[11:37] <Monika|K> and those who really can't / don't want to use IRC couldn't ask questions
[11:38] <Monika|K> which is the main point, isn't it
[11:38] <Monika|K> otherwise they could just read documentation in the wikis
[11:38] <ryanakca> hmm...
[11:38] <ryanakca> yeah
[11:38] <samgee> there could be an online form for submitting questions
[11:38] <orientalexpress> id liked to but soo many users it just scrolls up lol
[11:38] <zorglu_> Monika|K: hehe you really want me to explain why audio is better :)
[11:38] <habeeb>  zorglu_ go ahead. Right now, Monika|K , made some great points.
[11:38] <jadhog> zorglu_: maybe it could be an add in
[11:39] <habeeb> And where the hell is imbrandon ...
[11:39] <jadhog> (03:17:40 PM) imbrandon: Great to hear, what kind of session would you all like to see in the next OpenWeek ?
[11:39] <orientalexpress> anyways problem is my external usb hard drive is not detected in windows or 6.10, it crarshes when i stick in the usb for windows but is invisible for ubuntu. any ideas ?
[11:39] <zorglu_> ok first i dont think audio is 'definitly' better than 'irc'
[11:39] <jadhog> That was the last thing I heard
[11:39] <zorglu_> this is just another format
[11:39] <habeeb> orientalexpress: ask in #ubuntu
[11:39] <Monika|K> it would be technically a lot more difficult to get the speakers to use voice
[11:39] <robotangel> orientalexpress, use #ubuntu or ask at ubuntuforums
[11:39] <Monika|K> what should be used, Teamspeak?
[11:39] <zorglu_> 1. about the arguement of 'seeking' aka choosing from where you start reading/listening, this is ok with audio too
[11:40] <Monika|K> can it deal with hundreds of listeners?
[11:40] <ryanakca> jadhog: yep, an easy way to get away from a lesson, ask an open ended question, and the attendees can take care of it :)
[11:40] <jadhog> See I could handle audio, if it was to tie up those "Big questions"
[11:40] <zorglu_> 2. about the bw, yep text uses much less bandwidth than audio. but most current internet user have the bw to listen to internet radio (less than 10kbyte/s)
[11:40] <jadhog> that would take forever to type answers to
[11:41] <jadhog> lol ryanakca
[11:41] <zorglu_> 3. one big issue with audio is: it is less 'indexable' aka if the log of irc is on the web, google and co can trivially index it, and you can find it more easily
[11:41] <zorglu_> audio are not indexed by google and co
[11:41] <samgee> and Vorbis uses less bw than mp3 anyway :)
[11:42] <ditsch> hmm, i think audio will end up in a mess if it's not prerecorded cause everbody will speak at the same time
[11:42] <ditsch> and if you mute someone you have to record it to preserve it for q+a ;)
[11:42] <zorglu_> 4. audio are much nicer to listen than to read a long text. those audio 'song' could be released on a open license and thus people could uses it in podcast or their own radio
[11:43] <ditsch> that's a lot of effort, irc is way easier
[11:43] <jadhog> why not just festival the text if someone is craving the audio?
[11:43] <jadhog> or is unable to read it due to a medical reason
[11:43] <samgee> ditsch: I think only the host should have audio with questions through text
[11:43] <zorglu_> 5. usage case of delayed listening: 3week after the cond, i download the 3 show i want to listen, put that on my 'mp3player' and listen to that while i go to work in the subway
[11:44] <ditsch> samgee, you mean kinda mixing media?
[11:44] <habeeb> zorglu_: you can also print the log...
[11:44] <ditsch> but then we have to be in irc anyway^^
[11:44] <zorglu_> 6. usage case of 'sync' listening (the one i m personnaly interested it :): i tune my audio player on the audio stream and goes on coding while im listening to the conference :)
[11:44] <Monika|K> many of the sessions concentrated on some URL or on some command line commands, they would not be very useful on audio
[11:45] <zorglu_> habeeb: yep clearly, but try it yourself :)
[11:45] <SigmaX> Audio might be nice for a certain even or two -- like for the plethora of users who aren't IRC buffs -- but the IRC format shouldn't be abandoned.
[11:45] <samgee> ditsch: yes, host reads text questions and answers them
[11:45] <zorglu_> all in all, i dont say that audio is the 'best' or anything like that, but it has definitive advantages. but clearly not all
[11:45] <Monika|K> You can't listen to a classroom session and code at the same time
[11:46] <zorglu_> according to me the most important disavantage is the impossibility to index them
[11:46] <zorglu_> Monika|K: i do i all the time
[11:46] <ditsch> hmm, i am still not convinced, maybe i am just a bit too old-fashioned :P
[11:46] <SigmaX> ManikalK: Lol, hear hear!
[11:46] <Monika|K> ditsch, I am not conviced, either
[11:47] <samgee> Monika|K: you can't type in two windows at the same time either
[11:47] <zorglu_> Monika|K: no classroom session, but audio books or even video incrustation on the bottom right of my screen
[11:47] <imbrandon> wow , total internet loss
[11:47] <imbrandon> sorry fellas
[11:47] <Sanne> I'm on a traffic allowance and couldn't afford to listen to all those sessions I would want to. I'm also more confortable reading and typing english than listening/speaking. I think text/irc is the least common denominator, so I'd favour that one over audio.
[11:47] <jadhog> :P
[11:47] <Monika|K> audio books are entertainment are different
[11:48] <samgee> imbrandon: you missed all the great ideas :)
[11:48] <SigmaX> imbrandon: welcome back
[11:48] <jadhog> We are currently discussing inclusion of audio into Open Week
[11:48] <imbrandon> samgee, i ahve a log
[11:48] <imbrandon> have*
[11:48] <imbrandon> great
[11:48] <Sanne> I also agree with most of what Monika|K sais :)
[11:48] <zorglu_> yep audio have some advantages and some disadvantages
[11:49] <zorglu_> antoher advantage is that it is more 'lively' :) reading text doesnt pass the personality of the speaker
[11:49] <jadhog> it'd be nice to have a video like the Rails folks have for some of the complex stuff
[11:49] <Monika|K> it has so many disadvantages, it can't be used for most if not all UbuntuOpenWeek sessions
[11:49] <jadhog> for after fact review
[11:49] <Monika|K> whether it passes the personality of the speaker depends on the speaker
[11:49] <ditsch> zorglu_, i disagree with that. what is more interactive than irc?
[11:49] <zorglu_> jadhog: the screencasting from rails people ?
[11:50] <Monika|K> e.g. kiko was quite a jester
[11:50] <jadhog> zorglu_: yes
[11:50] <txwikinger> I think some sessions were good for audio... Ask Mark for instance
[11:50] <zorglu_> jadhog: seeeing is believing :)
[11:50] <zorglu_> jadhog: there is a ubuntu screencasting team try to do the same
[11:50] <txwikinger> And what about multi-media
[11:51] <zorglu_> ditsch: but you cant tell if im smiling or crying while im typing
[11:51] <Monika|K> zorglu_ and it doesn't matter
[11:51] <Monika|K> it's a classroom session
[11:51] <habeeb> word
[11:51] <Monika|K> not a psychological session ^^
[11:51] <habeeb> it's not theater.
[11:51] <zorglu_> hehe
[11:51] <ditsch> Monika|K, ack!
[11:51] <zorglu_> well ask eduubuntu people if the personality of the teacher doesnt affect how efficient he is with the students :)
[11:51] <samgee> why not ask jono to consider doing an audio session to see if works. He's quite the audio freak
[11:51] <Monika|K> and I hope none of the speakers was crying ^^
[11:52] <jadhog> sobbing into their keyboards
[11:52] <zorglu_> well it was just a suggestion, i dont want to push anything, just to make sure it has been considered as a possibility
[11:52] <Monika|K> what technology could be used for the broadcast
[11:52] <samgee> Asterisk
[11:52] <ditsch> if you'd ask jono it will end up in a metal jam session ^^
[11:52] <zorglu_> Monika|K: internet radio is a well know tech
[11:53] <jadhog> So aside from what could be used to bolster talks, what Subjects would people like to see?
[11:53] <samgee> what do the tllts guys use? They have a live stream
[11:54] <zorglu_> jadhog: i would like to see people external to ubuntu, but related, like people giving opinion on what is a dekstop
[11:54] <zorglu_> jadhog: how to make a living and still do opensource fulltime
[11:54] <zorglu_> jadhog: i dunno if it is in the scope of -classroom tho
[11:54] <ditsch> jadhog, maybe some intro to common used programs like Ooo or that bling-bling stuff?!
[11:55] <jadhog> Have a laundry list of the bling bling that would be most likely to be covered?
[11:55] <ditsch> think that would attract users, too not only more the technical and spiritual staff
[11:55] <Monika|K> zorglu_ like people from the KDE or GNOME project? yeah, that could be good
[11:55] <Monika|K> what's "bling-bling"?
[11:56] <jadhog> I think, things like compiz
[11:56] <ditsch> compiz/beryl
[11:56] <zorglu_> Monika|K: yep, could be nice, like aseigo coming to talk about kde4, or similar 'future stuff'
[11:56] <ditsch> howto get it work and manage to be more productive with it
[11:56] <ditsch> that would be nice i think
[11:56] <jadhog> Would something like Workflows in KDE or Gnome be a good start?
[11:56] <jadhog> Applications for workflows?
[11:57] <ditsch> sounds interesting, also
[11:57] <zorglu_> without the word workflows :)
[11:57] <jadhog> :P
[11:57] <ditsch> lol
[11:57] <zorglu_> but yep, tutorial on kde/gnome etc...
[11:57] <zorglu_> 'what can you do with firefox and all the addon'
[11:58] <jadhog> would this be an entire 'track' starting small?
[11:58] <jadhog> Firefox tutorials would be nice
[11:58] <jadhog> So how basic do we start at for the KDE or Gnome sessions?
[11:58] <zorglu_> yep up to now openweek was close to 'presentation of ubuntu stuff'
[11:58] <samgee> Isn't OpenWeek supposed to be about how you can help the Ubuntu community?
[11:59] <zorglu_> may doing more in the direction 'tutorial on how to use soft found in ubuntu' :)
[11:59] <ditsch> isn't ubuntu openweek about ubuntu in general?
[11:59] <Monika|K> Firefox extensions is not really related to Ubuntu
[11:59] <Monika|K> doesn't get people into volunteering for anything related Ubuntu
[11:59] <zorglu_> i dunno i asked several time the scope of openweek but got no answer yet
[12:00] <Monika|K> the Mozilla people would have to do such a classroom session, if they wanted to
[12:00] <jadhog> let me post
[12:00] <jadhog>   learn about the Ubuntu landscape    talk to some of the key developers from the Ubuntu project    find out about the Community and its relationship with Canonical    participate in an open Q&A with Mark Shuttleworth, the founder of Ubuntu    much more...
[12:00] <jadhog> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[12:00] <zorglu_> ok so it is more 'discover ubuntu community'
[12:00] <jadhog> A lot of this would fall under the "much more" category
[12:01] <Monika|K> 'tutorial on how to use soft found in ubuntu' would certainly be off-topic
[12:01] <ditsch> everything starts with using ubuntu ;)
[12:01] <Monika|K> has nothing to do with getting people into developing, bug triaging, translating or anything
[12:01] <zorglu_> jadhog: yep because all the 'discover ubuntu community' is what is already covered :)
[12:01] <Monika|K> this is not a beginner's intro to Ubuntu
[12:01] <ditsch> why not?
[12:01] <Monika|K> because that's not what UbuntuOpenWeek is for
[12:01] <Monika|K> it is for getting new volunteers
[12:01] <zorglu_> Monika|K: well 'much more' is pretty large and vague :)
[12:02] <Monika|K> "much more" related to volunteering, community work and so on
[12:02] <zorglu_> large enought to put anything in it :)
[12:02] <Monika|K> not really
[12:02] <zorglu_> well 'learn how to code kernel' is 'much more' :)
[12:02] <ditsch> ^^
[12:03] <ditsch> then you'd have to acquire linus for a session
[12:03] <SigmaX> Beginners don't use IRC.
[12:03] <Monika|K> there was a kernel session, ditsch