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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 03 May 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 09 May 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 10 May 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 16 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
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ubotuSchedule for Etc/UTC: 03 May 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 20:00: Technical Board | 09 May 20:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 15:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 12:00: Edubuntu12:58
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vciaglia@schedule italy09:21
Treenaks@schedule Amsterdam09:22
ubotuSchedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board | 09 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 14:00: Edubuntu09:22
vciaglia@schedule rome09:22
ubotuSchedule for Europe/Rome: 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board | 09 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 14:00: Edubuntu09:22
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mjlamorafirst sip of first cup... am I in the meeting?02:52
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Lure@schedule ljubljana04:39
ubotuSchedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board | 09 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 14:00: Edubuntu04:39
dholbach@schedule berlin04:47
ubotuSchedule for Europe/Berlin: 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board | 09 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 14:00: Edubuntu04:47
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pkl_@schedule london04:48
ubotuSchedule for Europe/London: 03 May 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 21:00: Technical Board | 09 May 21:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 16:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 13:00: Edubuntu04:48
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mdzgood afternoon04:59
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asachi mdz05:00
asacso we do meet or not?05:01
mdzI just got out of a meeting with soyuz folk05:01
mdzI did not have the chance to copy activity summaries, but I did create https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting2007050305:01
mdzand I do want to talk to everyone about UDS05:01
mdzare we all here?05:02
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cjwatsonkenel I suspect the kernel team won't be, aside from pkl05:03
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asacpitti will be here soon05:03
cjwatsonheno is travelling05:03
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seb128meeting or not meeting?05:04
asac+1 ;)05:04
mdzScott is also travelling, of course05:04
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mdzmvo,Riddell,Mithrandir: ping05:05
dholbachmvo_: ^05:05
fabbioneMithrandir is here05:05
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bdmurraybryce is travelling atm I think05:06
dholbachmvo_ will be here shortly05:06
mdzbdmurray: oh?05:06
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cjwatsonoh, yes, bryce is at the LGM05:06
pittihi, sorry for being late05:06
bdmurrayto Montreal?05:06
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seb128mdz: he sent a mail on warthogs about travelling 3-4 and 4-505:07
mdzah, right05:07
mdzanyway, my only agenda item is to check in with everyone regarding their preparation for UDS05:08
mdza draft schedule is up at http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/uds-sevilla/05:08
mdzand workshops with no preparation done are outlined in red05:08
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mdzthat outline disappears when an agenda is added to the XML for the schedule05:08
seb128cjwatson: "Apport cooperation with Gnome upstream" is planned on the 10th but fer and bkor (GNOME guys interested in that) are register until the 9th only05:09
cjwatsonyeah, I'd seen that in scrollback05:09
mdzcjwatson: bryce's don't seem to be done05:09
cjwatsongive me a moment to see if it can be rearranged05:09
pittiwe can either move it, or just have that one be scheduled automatically and devote that slot to any other of the 5 apport specs05:09
iwjCan I have a slot for the grub boot device identification problem ?05:10
iwjslot> Plus participation from people with useful knowledge :-).05:10
cjwatsonmdz: of the ones that aren't follow-on from MtV, kyle was due to prepare background for X, a while back; I'll check on that when he next checks in05:10
cjwatsoniwj: can it be autoscheduled?05:10
iwjcjwatson: I think I need kernel guys and perhaps someone like you with some installer knowledge.05:11
cjwatsonseb128: can you /msg me fer and bkor's real names?05:11
pittibtw, we can have a free slot at Friday; Riddell and I quickly talked about it, we don't really need a session for Kubuntu restricted manager05:11
iwjThe alternative to a core scheduled item is a corridor bof I think.05:11
pittimaybe we should just run through all them from the top05:12
cjwatsoniwj: my time is pretty tight, though evand may be able to help to some extent05:12
iwjcjwatson: Mmm.05:13
fabbioneiwj: do you need a generic installer guy or ubiquity?05:13
iwjIt's for matching up devices between installation and booting.05:14
iwjI mean, between BIOS and Linux, really.05:14
cjwatsonseb128,pitti: I'll try to arrange some kind of rescheduling of thatt one05:14
fabbioneiwj: ok.. i might be able to help you there (installer side)05:14
pitticjwatson: encrypted file systems is currently lead by Keybuk; do you think you can take it? it's heavily installer dependent05:14
mdziwj: that sounds like it would be a good subject for a sprint with some upstream bootloader folks05:14
iwjmdz: Err, I don't think it warrants a sprint.05:15
cjwatsonhuh, bkor's LP ID is "bugzilla-ubuntu"05:15
seb128cjwatson: thanks05:15
mdziwj: then why are we discussing it?05:15
iwjAnd I think the problem is as much a Linux problem (if not more so) than a bootloader problem.05:15
pitticjwatson: well, he works on Gnome bugzilla05:15
cjwatsonmdz: that would imply grub2; none of the relevant upstream folks care about grub any more05:15
iwjI mean, it doesn't warrant a whole sprint.05:15
iwjIt ought to be discussed in person.  Worth about a bof.05:15
mdzcjwatson: I don't see a problem with that05:15
seb128cjwatson: weird, I'm not sure if he uses launchpad bug he's the bugzilla.gnome.org admin05:15
cjwatsonmdz: it's a pretty serious issue actually; there are a huge number of bugs relevant to it05:16
mvo_iwj: is that essential about bug #8497 ? or something complettely different?05:16
ubotuLaunchpad bug 8497 in grub "grub guessed BIOS disk order incorrectly" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/849705:16
iwjmvo_: That and the dozens of similar bugs, yes.05:16
mdzcjwatson: if it's a serious issue which needs to be resolved, it's worth getting the stakeholders together  and hashing it out properly05:16
cjwatsonand it could be tied into our UUID changes too in some ways05:16
cjwatsonmdz: the problem is that we have repeatedly rejected grub2 as not ready yet ...05:16
iwjI've just looked at the grub2 code again.05:17
iwjIt's not ready yet.05:17
iwjAnd it doesn't solve this problem anyway.05:17
mdzcjwatson: we are not the only ones with this problem, and it's worth talking to the other people05:17
mdzwe've had this problem for years now05:17
cjwatsonI guess I agree, but it might help if we could agree internally what we wanted first!05:17
mdzI guess I didn't realize there was a disagreement05:18
iwjmdz: It's getting lots more severe, because our Linux device discovery is constantly getting generating less predictable orderings.05:18
mdzwhat is the disagreement?05:18
iwjSATA is doing it, particularly.05:18
mdziwj: what does that have to do with grub?05:18
cjwatsonmdz: not so much a disagreement as that we really have no clue what the desired final answer ought to look like, and I think it's going to take kernel experience as well as bootloader experience; how many people do you want to drag to a sprint about this one subject?05:19
iwjThe stuff that sets up grub needs to know BIOS disk numbers.  These used to be predictable because Linux and the BIOS used to (mostly) detect stuff in the same predictable order.05:19
iwjWhat cjwatson said.05:19
mdzcjwatson: a sprint isn't a punishment, it's a chance to work on the problem05:19
cjwatsonmdz: I wasn't implying it was, but it's also expensive05:20
iwjCan we please have a bof at UDS and then we'll see if we want a sprint or not ?05:20
mdzand the fact that we need people with all of the relevant backgrounds is a good reason to plan it, rather than trying to squeeze it into UDS05:20
iwjI think we will have most of the relevant knowledge at UDS, or at least a good chance of having.05:20
cjwatsonI would like to at least talk about it at UDS. Whether it's a hallway-track meeting or something else I don't really care.05:21
cjwatsonwe could put it in the installer forum if you like05:21
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mdzhow about adding a boot loader forum which iwj can host05:21
cjwatsonthere's nothing much concrete scheduled for that yet05:21
Mithrandiriwj: it's also the fact that it used to be a problem only with SCSI + IDE, while now it's a problem with PATA + SATA which is a lot more common.05:21
iwjThe key thing is kernel participation.  The bootloader stuff is fiddly but less complex and I think I can probably cover it.05:21
iwjMithrandir: Right.  And it used to be that if it did go wrong you could write some config to fix it, whereas now it changes every other boot.05:22
Mithrandiriwj: yay hardware/BIOS races.05:22
mdziwj: if you want some time with the kernel team to talk through this, then I see no problem with it05:22
mdzthe entire kernel team will be there, and they will certainly have a spare hour05:23
cjwatsonI will schedule a forum session involving iwj + kernel team05:23
iwjUnfortunately I don't have enough SATA disks here to do proper tests but Fabio will perhaps have some experience of BIOS disk order stability (or otherwise) with many-disk SATA setups.05:23
iwjcjwatson: Thanks.05:23
mdziwj: has Keybuk talked to you about boot/login with no free disk space?05:23
iwjmdz: Yes.05:23
iwjI don't think it needs discussion.05:23
cjwatsonin general though we plan for it to be possible to autoschedule stuff and have that interact nicely with the core schedule05:23
mdziwj: that has a big chunk of background work which doesn't seem to have been done yet05:23
cjwatsonKeybuk says he has the code for that05:23
fabbioneiwj: i have no SATA.. only SAS (only sparc) and scsi05:23
Mithrandircjwatson: feel free to add me to that bof too.05:24
mdziwj: I don't think you know that until you've looked at it in more detail05:24
iwjIt just needs test, discover bug, fix bug or do workaround, rinse, repeat.05:24
iwjfabbione: Hmm.05:24
fabbioneiwj: well plus IDE or PATA or whatever they are called now05:24
iwjOK, I'll put out a mail on ubuntu-devel maybe asking for people to report their experiences.05:24
mdziwj: how about doing a comprehensive test, which is what I asked for?05:24
mdzthis is not a difficult problem to simulate05:25
mdzand then if it turns out that there are upstream problems to be resolved, you'll know what questions to ask the GNOME folks at the summit05:25
mdzfor example05:25
Mithrandirmdz: not entirely true, since you don't know what order the BIOS puts the drives in.  Some BIOSes put the boot drive as 0x80, some just don't.  But, it's better to discuss the problem in person.05:26
cjwatsonMithrandir: err, I think we're talking about the disk space thing now05:26
Mithrandircjwatson: oh, point.05:26
mdzMithrandir: I have no idea what you're responding to05:26
Mithrandirmea culpa05:26
iwjmdz: Err, yes, but I don't think a test will tell us very much.05:26
mdziwj: "we'll figure it out as we go" is not a suitable project plan05:26
mdzpitti,fabbione: is one of you looking into encrypted filesystems?05:27
fabbionemdz: i did some basic research already at MV05:27
iwjCan we have encrypted swap at least ?05:27
pittimdz: I made up my mind about cryptsetup, did some experiments, and thought about various possibilities to implement it05:28
pittiI think I have a pretty good idea about the subject now and the pro/cons of different approaches05:28
mdzpitti: ok, you should have enough background for an agenda05:28
cjwatsoniwj: it's (a) easy to test on a basic level and start incrementally fixing, (b) possible to write a shim that causes write() and similar to return ENOSPC05:28
pittiiwj: that's the easiest thing05:28
pittimdz: right, in fact I already have an agenda here; I guess I just forgot to add it to the bzr05:28
pittiwill do05:28
iwjcjwatson: Right.05:29
iwjI've been playing with subterfugue for other reasons and that might well be a starting point for such a shim ...05:29
mdzpitti: ok, gerat05:30
mdzRiddell: do you know what needs to be discussed at the Kubuntu/KDE-related sessions?05:30
Riddellmdz: some things yes, but I don't have a two hour agenda for the "Kubuntu gutsy plan" slot05:31
Riddellit may well we have plenty to talk about for two hours, I just don't know05:31
Riddellmdz: I did e-mail agenda items to keybuk when he asked a while ago, but they don't seem to be added to any of the items05:31
cjwatsonmdz: can I take you off apport-gnome-cooperation if necessary to resolve scheduling contention?05:31
mdzRiddell: the agendas don't need to fill the entire time slot, just provide starting points for the discussion05:31
cjwatsonI still need to go through the stuff Scott forwarded from various people :-/05:31
mdzRiddell: ok, if you've sent them to Scott then he'll commit them05:32
mdz...or punt them to colin05:32
Riddellmdz: is "Kubuntu gutsy plan" expected to end with a spec?05:32
mdzRiddell: I cannot say; I did not define it.  didn't the Kubuntu topics come from you?05:32
mdzit's marked as a workshop, which would mean yes, it should result in a spec05:33
Riddellmdz: yes, but that one was "kde 4 plan" and has now been generalised into "kubuntu gusty plan"05:33
mdzand from the title, it sounds like it should have some output, namely a plan05:33
mdzRiddell: I'm not picky about the name05:34
mdzif you want it to be specifically kde 4, that's fine with me05:34
mdzor you can split it into a workshop on kde 4, and a  forum to brainstorm other interesting things to do in Kubuntu05:35
cjwatsonapport-gnome-cooperation moved to Tuesday05:35
cjwatsonlast thing Tuesday in the otherwise free slot, but you can't have everything05:36
=== pitti adds agenda for encrypted file systems
mdzcjwatson: I've started assembling slides for the introduction, and I don't expect to have 90 minutes of talking to do05:36
mdzso we can potentially free up some space on sunday05:36
cjwatsonwe're not under *quite* that much pressure yet, but it may come05:37
cjwatsonwe could make how-was-feisty-for-you longer05:37
cjwatsonit strikes me that there will probably be plenty of material in there05:37
mdzthat could become a big brainstorming session05:38
mdzor we could do a demo05:38
cjwatsonwe already have lots of demo slots05:39
cjwatsonlater in the week, which I think is better really05:39
mdzI want to re-emphasize that we need more people devoted to the mobile effort05:39
mdzthis is perhaps the single most important part of the summit, to get this sorted05:40
fabbionemdz: i added my self to the mobile schedule are you requested05:40
mdzfabbione: yes, thank you05:40
mdzthere will be about 5-8 folks coming just to work on that05:40
mdzI'll be sending out an announcement about it soon05:41
mdzare there any questions about UDS?05:42
mdzthis will be the first one for some of you05:42
Riddellwill there be phone conferencing like at MTV?05:43
mdzif it's your first summit, it would behoove you to get a briefing on how it works05:43
pittimdz: how do we handle subscription to dynamically scheduled specs?05:43
mdzRiddell: I have been told that there will be something similar, yes05:43
mdzpitti: just subscribe in launchpad as usual05:43
pittimdz: greedy subscription again, or just ad-hoc on the evening for the next day?05:43
mdzpitti: I don't understand the question05:44
pkl_mdz: where can I get any briefings. as it's my first summit?  I was planning on picking everthing up when I got ther.05:44
pittimdz: nevermind, if it didn't change, then my question is already answered05:45
pittiI overheard something about not subscribing to half a thousand specs this time to ease scheduling or so05:45
cjwatsonmdz: I'm shortening the intro bits on Sunday and (for now) spreading out how-was-feisty over the break, but it might be best to turn that into two different things05:45
fabbionepkl_: get there saturday. offer beer to other developers .. developers will happily talk about the process. WIN05:45
mdzpkl_: talk to your line manager if you don't have a mentor to talk to already05:45
cjwatsonpkl_: I can give you a call shortly after the meeting and we can go over it05:46
pkl_I was going to question BenC, as he's not about much at the moment, Saturday evening was my plan.05:46
mvohttps://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-sevilla <- that is the list for dynamically specs, right? or is there more to look at05:46
iwjpitti's question AIUI is should we do what we were encouraged to do last time, which is to subscribe to lots of specs we're interested in, or should we leave ourselves out of the scheduler some more and simply turn up to things on the day ?05:46
pittiiwj: *nod*05:47
pkl_cjwatson: can we move the call to tomorrow?  I need to vote (in the Welsh assembly election and catch a train to Birmingham)?05:47
mdzmvo: yes05:47
cjwatsonpkl_: I will be on a train tomorrow05:47
pittierk, there's 'firewall' again; that's a SoC project05:47
iwjWhy is winmodem-support on the schedule05:47
cjwatsonpkl_: but I'll happily go over it in person with you on Sunday evening05:47
mdziwj,pitti: since subscription doesn't affect scheduling, you're free to do as you like05:47
pkl_cjwatson: OK, thanks.05:47
mdzsubscription means that you'll be notified of state changes on the spec, and you'll have a personal agenda generated by the scheduler05:47
iwjRight.  I might do that by hand and eye instead.05:48
cjwatsonpkl_: sorry, I mean Sat evening05:48
mdziwj: because it's still a big concern for our users?05:48
iwjWhat I mean is is it not working ?05:48
pkl_cjwatson: OK, I assumed you meant Saturday :)05:49
mdziwj: no, it is not05:49
mdziwj: and the scope attempted for feisty apparently wasn't complete, either05:49
iwjOK, well, fine, let's discuss it at UDS then.05:49
mdziwj: Keybuk has the details and can review this with you05:49
iwjKeybuk> Oh, good.05:50
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 May 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 09 May 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 10 May 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 16 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
mdzok, anything further on UDS?05:50
mdzany non-UDS items to raise?05:50
pitticjwatson: are you fine to sub to encrypted-file-systems for your installer expertise?05:51
cjwatsonpitti: yes, I think last I looked it conflicted with something but that is not now the case05:51
fabbionepitti: i can be there for that. i have experience in partman*05:51
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iwjpitti: Can you sub me to that ?  I'm trying to get a bit more into the installer and have some fs encryption experience.05:52
fabbionepitti: assuming cjwatson will trust me enough :)05:52
iwjOr I'll do it myself ...05:52
pittifabbione: that would be nice as well; but we should also integrate it into ubiquity somehow05:52
pittiiwj: as you wish, I can do it quickly if you want05:52
fabbionepitti: i am pretty sure ubiquity will suck it almost automatically05:52
cjwatsonfabbione: you are mistaken] 05:52
cjwatsondepending perhaps on how much flexibility there is in "almost"05:53
cjwatsonevand will need to be there for that; I've subscribed him05:53
fabbionecjwatson: well pretty much a lot..05:53
pittiiwj: done05:53
fabbionecjwatson: of flexibility05:53
iwjpitti: Ta.05:53
cjwatsonfabbione: you're already subscribed to encrypted-filesystems anyway05:54
cjwatsonat this point, people should feel free to commit agenda items themselvees05:54
Riddelldo I need to register my specs in launchpad?05:54
cjwatsonas your managers may well be travelling05:54
cjwatsonI was due to do a mass spec registration05:54
cjwatsonor in some cases renaming in the core scheduler05:54
cjwatsonnot quite sure when I'm going to fit that in, but I'll try ...05:54
cjwatsonsftp://chinstrap/home/warthogs/archives/scott/schedulemaker/ for the recorrd05:55
mdzok, looks like a wrap for the meeting05:56
mdzI'm looking forward to seeing everyone this weekend05:56
mdztravel safely and get some good sleep05:56
mdzthanks, everyone05:56
fabbionecya there05:56
pkl_see you all there.05:56
bdmurraysee you soon05:56
asacthanks ... cu all on sat/sun!05:56
pittisee you all, safe travels!05:57
=== pitti can't bring his Poker set this time
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iwjpitti: You have an exploding poker set which contains flammable liquids like water ?06:04
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pittiiwj: it's too big for me to carry in the hand luggage, and due to the braindead connection I want to avoid checking in luggage06:52
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iwjAh, poor connections.06:59
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