[12:58] <popey> @schedule
[12:58] <ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 03 May 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 20:00: Technical Board | 09 May 20:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 15:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 12:00: Edubuntu
[09:21] <vciaglia> @schedule italy
[09:22] <Treenaks> @schedule Amsterdam
[09:22] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board | 09 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 14:00: Edubuntu
[09:22] <vciaglia> @schedule rome
[09:22] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board | 09 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 14:00: Edubuntu
[12:45] <nifan> b'dia
[02:52] <mjlamora> first sip of first cup... am I in the meeting?
[04:39] <Lure> @schedule ljubljana
[04:39] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board | 09 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 14:00: Edubuntu
[04:47] <dholbach> @schedule berlin
[04:47] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board | 09 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 14:00: Edubuntu
[04:48] <pkl_> @schedule london
[04:48] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 03 May 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 21:00: Technical Board | 09 May 21:00: Edubuntu | 10 May 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 May 16:00: Kernel Team | 16 May 13:00: Edubuntu
[04:59] <mdz> good afternoon
[05:00] <asac> hi mdz
[05:00] <pkl_> hi
[05:00] <cjwatson> hi
[05:01] <asac> so we do meet or not?
[05:01] <mdz> I just got out of a meeting with soyuz folk
[05:01] <mdz> I did not have the chance to copy activity summaries, but I did create https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070503
[05:01] <fabbione> re
[05:01] <mdz> and I do want to talk to everyone about UDS
[05:02] <mdz> are we all here?
[05:03] <Mithrandir> aye
[05:03] <cjwatson> kenel I suspect the kernel team won't be, aside from pkl
[05:03] <asac> pitti will be here soon
[05:03] <cjwatson> heno is travelling
[05:04] <seb128> meeting or not meeting?
[05:04] <fabbione> meeting
[05:04] <asac> +1 ;)
[05:04] <mdz> Scott is also travelling, of course
[05:05] <mdz> mvo,Riddell,Mithrandir: ping
[05:05] <dholbach> mvo_: ^
[05:05] <fabbione> Mithrandir is here
[05:06] <bdmurray> bryce is travelling atm I think
[05:06] <dholbach> mvo_ will be here shortly
[05:06] <mdz> bdmurray: oh?
[05:06] <cjwatson> oh, yes, bryce is at the LGM
[05:06] <pitti> hi, sorry for being late
[05:06] <bdmurray> to Montreal?
[05:07] <seb128> mdz: he sent a mail on warthogs about travelling 3-4 and 4-5
[05:07] <mdz> ah, right
[05:08] <mdz> anyway, my only agenda item is to check in with everyone regarding their preparation for UDS
[05:08] <mdz> a draft schedule is up at http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/uds-sevilla/
[05:08] <mdz> and workshops with no preparation done are outlined in red
[05:08] <mdz> that outline disappears when an agenda is added to the XML for the schedule
[05:09] <seb128> cjwatson: "Apport cooperation with Gnome upstream" is planned on the 10th but fer and bkor (GNOME guys interested in that) are register until the 9th only
[05:09] <cjwatson> yeah, I'd seen that in scrollback
[05:09] <seb128> k
[05:09] <mdz> cjwatson: bryce's don't seem to be done
[05:09] <cjwatson> give me a moment to see if it can be rearranged
[05:09] <pitti> we can either move it, or just have that one be scheduled automatically and devote that slot to any other of the 5 apport specs
[05:10] <iwj> Can I have a slot for the grub boot device identification problem ?
[05:10] <iwj> slot> Plus participation from people with useful knowledge :-).
[05:10] <cjwatson> mdz: of the ones that aren't follow-on from MtV, kyle was due to prepare background for X, a while back; I'll check on that when he next checks in
[05:10] <cjwatson> iwj: can it be autoscheduled?
[05:11] <iwj> cjwatson: I think I need kernel guys and perhaps someone like you with some installer knowledge.
[05:11] <cjwatson> seb128: can you /msg me fer and bkor's real names?
[05:11] <pitti> btw, we can have a free slot at Friday; Riddell and I quickly talked about it, we don't really need a session for Kubuntu restricted manager
[05:11] <iwj> The alternative to a core scheduled item is a corridor bof I think.
[05:12] <pitti> maybe we should just run through all them from the top
[05:12] <cjwatson> iwj: my time is pretty tight, though evand may be able to help to some extent
[05:13] <iwj> cjwatson: Mmm.
[05:13] <fabbione> iwj: do you need a generic installer guy or ubiquity?
[05:13] <iwj> Generic.
[05:14] <iwj> It's for matching up devices between installation and booting.
[05:14] <iwj> I mean, between BIOS and Linux, really.
[05:14] <cjwatson> seb128,pitti: I'll try to arrange some kind of rescheduling of thatt one
[05:14] <cjwatson> that
[05:14] <fabbione> iwj: ok.. i might be able to help you there (installer side)
[05:14] <pitti> cjwatson: encrypted file systems is currently lead by Keybuk; do you think you can take it? it's heavily installer dependent
[05:14] <mdz> iwj: that sounds like it would be a good subject for a sprint with some upstream bootloader folks
[05:15] <iwj> mdz: Err, I don't think it warrants a sprint.
[05:15] <cjwatson> huh, bkor's LP ID is "bugzilla-ubuntu"
[05:15] <seb128> cjwatson: thanks
[05:15] <mdz> iwj: then why are we discussing it?
[05:15] <iwj> And I think the problem is as much a Linux problem (if not more so) than a bootloader problem.
[05:15] <pitti> cjwatson: well, he works on Gnome bugzilla
[05:15] <cjwatson> mdz: that would imply grub2; none of the relevant upstream folks care about grub any more
[05:15] <iwj> I mean, it doesn't warrant a whole sprint.
[05:15] <iwj> It ought to be discussed in person.  Worth about a bof.
[05:15] <mdz> cjwatson: I don't see a problem with that
[05:15] <seb128> cjwatson: weird, I'm not sure if he uses launchpad bug he's the bugzilla.gnome.org admin
[05:16] <cjwatson> mdz: it's a pretty serious issue actually; there are a huge number of bugs relevant to it
[05:16] <seb128> s/bug/but
[05:16] <mvo_> iwj: is that essential about bug #8497 ? or something complettely different?
[05:16] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 8497 in grub "grub guessed BIOS disk order incorrectly" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/8497
[05:16] <iwj> mvo_: That and the dozens of similar bugs, yes.
[05:16] <mdz> cjwatson: if it's a serious issue which needs to be resolved, it's worth getting the stakeholders together  and hashing it out properly
[05:16] <cjwatson> and it could be tied into our UUID changes too in some ways
[05:16] <cjwatson> mdz: the problem is that we have repeatedly rejected grub2 as not ready yet ...
[05:17] <iwj> I've just looked at the grub2 code again.
[05:17] <iwj> It's not ready yet.
[05:17] <iwj> And it doesn't solve this problem anyway.
[05:17] <mdz> cjwatson: we are not the only ones with this problem, and it's worth talking to the other people
[05:17] <mdz> we've had this problem for years now
[05:17] <cjwatson> I guess I agree, but it might help if we could agree internally what we wanted first!
[05:18] <mdz> I guess I didn't realize there was a disagreement
[05:18] <iwj> mdz: It's getting lots more severe, because our Linux device discovery is constantly getting generating less predictable orderings.
[05:18] <mdz> what is the disagreement?
[05:18] <iwj> SATA is doing it, particularly.
[05:18] <mdz> iwj: what does that have to do with grub?
[05:19] <cjwatson> mdz: not so much a disagreement as that we really have no clue what the desired final answer ought to look like, and I think it's going to take kernel experience as well as bootloader experience; how many people do you want to drag to a sprint about this one subject?
[05:19] <iwj> The stuff that sets up grub needs to know BIOS disk numbers.  These used to be predictable because Linux and the BIOS used to (mostly) detect stuff in the same predictable order.
[05:19] <iwj> What cjwatson said.
[05:19] <mdz> cjwatson: a sprint isn't a punishment, it's a chance to work on the problem
[05:20] <cjwatson> mdz: I wasn't implying it was, but it's also expensive
[05:20] <iwj> Can we please have a bof at UDS and then we'll see if we want a sprint or not ?
[05:20] <mdz> and the fact that we need people with all of the relevant backgrounds is a good reason to plan it, rather than trying to squeeze it into UDS
[05:20] <iwj> I think we will have most of the relevant knowledge at UDS, or at least a good chance of having.
[05:21] <cjwatson> I would like to at least talk about it at UDS. Whether it's a hallway-track meeting or something else I don't really care.
[05:21] <cjwatson> we could put it in the installer forum if you like
[05:21] <mdz> how about adding a boot loader forum which iwj can host
[05:21] <cjwatson> there's nothing much concrete scheduled for that yet
[05:21] <Mithrandir> iwj: it's also the fact that it used to be a problem only with SCSI + IDE, while now it's a problem with PATA + SATA which is a lot more common.
[05:21] <iwj> The key thing is kernel participation.  The bootloader stuff is fiddly but less complex and I think I can probably cover it.
[05:22] <iwj> Mithrandir: Right.  And it used to be that if it did go wrong you could write some config to fix it, whereas now it changes every other boot.
[05:22] <Mithrandir> iwj: yay hardware/BIOS races.
[05:22] <mdz> iwj: if you want some time with the kernel team to talk through this, then I see no problem with it
[05:23] <mdz> the entire kernel team will be there, and they will certainly have a spare hour
[05:23] <cjwatson> I will schedule a forum session involving iwj + kernel team
[05:23] <mdz> ok
[05:23] <iwj> Unfortunately I don't have enough SATA disks here to do proper tests but Fabio will perhaps have some experience of BIOS disk order stability (or otherwise) with many-disk SATA setups.
[05:23] <iwj> cjwatson: Thanks.
[05:23] <mdz> iwj: has Keybuk talked to you about boot/login with no free disk space?
[05:23] <iwj> mdz: Yes.
[05:23] <iwj> I don't think it needs discussion.
[05:23] <cjwatson> in general though we plan for it to be possible to autoschedule stuff and have that interact nicely with the core schedule
[05:23] <mdz> iwj: that has a big chunk of background work which doesn't seem to have been done yet
[05:23] <cjwatson> Keybuk says he has the code for that
[05:23] <fabbione> iwj: i have no SATA.. only SAS (only sparc) and scsi
[05:24] <Mithrandir> cjwatson: feel free to add me to that bof too.
[05:24] <mdz> iwj: I don't think you know that until you've looked at it in more detail
[05:24] <iwj> It just needs test, discover bug, fix bug or do workaround, rinse, repeat.
[05:24] <iwj> fabbione: Hmm.
[05:24] <fabbione> iwj: well plus IDE or PATA or whatever they are called now
[05:24] <iwj> OK, I'll put out a mail on ubuntu-devel maybe asking for people to report their experiences.
[05:24] <mdz> iwj: how about doing a comprehensive test, which is what I asked for?
[05:25] <mdz> this is not a difficult problem to simulate
[05:25] <mdz> and then if it turns out that there are upstream problems to be resolved, you'll know what questions to ask the GNOME folks at the summit
[05:25] <mdz> for example
[05:26] <Mithrandir> mdz: not entirely true, since you don't know what order the BIOS puts the drives in.  Some BIOSes put the boot drive as 0x80, some just don't.  But, it's better to discuss the problem in person.
[05:26] <cjwatson> Mithrandir: err, I think we're talking about the disk space thing now
[05:26] <Mithrandir> cjwatson: oh, point.
[05:26] <mdz> Mithrandir: I have no idea what you're responding to
[05:26] <Mithrandir> mea culpa
[05:26] <iwj> mdz: Err, yes, but I don't think a test will tell us very much.
[05:26] <mdz> iwj: "we'll figure it out as we go" is not a suitable project plan
[05:27] <mdz> pitti,fabbione: is one of you looking into encrypted filesystems?
[05:27] <fabbione> mdz: i did some basic research already at MV
[05:27] <iwj> Can we have encrypted swap at least ?
[05:28] <pitti> mdz: I made up my mind about cryptsetup, did some experiments, and thought about various possibilities to implement it
[05:28] <pitti> I think I have a pretty good idea about the subject now and the pro/cons of different approaches
[05:28] <mdz> pitti: ok, you should have enough background for an agenda
[05:28] <cjwatson> iwj: it's (a) easy to test on a basic level and start incrementally fixing, (b) possible to write a shim that causes write() and similar to return ENOSPC
[05:28] <pitti> iwj: that's the easiest thing
[05:28] <pitti> mdz: right, in fact I already have an agenda here; I guess I just forgot to add it to the bzr
[05:28] <pitti> will do
[05:29] <iwj> cjwatson: Right.
[05:29] <iwj> I've been playing with subterfugue for other reasons and that might well be a starting point for such a shim ...
[05:30] <mdz> pitti: ok, gerat
[05:30] <mdz> great
[05:30] <mdz> Riddell: do you know what needs to be discussed at the Kubuntu/KDE-related sessions?
[05:31] <Riddell> mdz: some things yes, but I don't have a two hour agenda for the "Kubuntu gutsy plan" slot
[05:31] <Riddell> it may well we have plenty to talk about for two hours, I just don't know
[05:31] <Riddell> mdz: I did e-mail agenda items to keybuk when he asked a while ago, but they don't seem to be added to any of the items
[05:31] <cjwatson> mdz: can I take you off apport-gnome-cooperation if necessary to resolve scheduling contention?
[05:31] <mdz> Riddell: the agendas don't need to fill the entire time slot, just provide starting points for the discussion
[05:31] <cjwatson> I still need to go through the stuff Scott forwarded from various people :-/
[05:32] <mdz> Riddell: ok, if you've sent them to Scott then he'll commit them
[05:32] <mdz> ...or punt them to colin
[05:32] <Riddell> mdz: is "Kubuntu gutsy plan" expected to end with a spec?
[05:32] <mdz> Riddell: I cannot say; I did not define it.  didn't the Kubuntu topics come from you?
[05:33] <mdz> it's marked as a workshop, which would mean yes, it should result in a spec
[05:33] <Riddell> mdz: yes, but that one was "kde 4 plan" and has now been generalised into "kubuntu gusty plan"
[05:33] <mdz> and from the title, it sounds like it should have some output, namely a plan
[05:34] <mdz> Riddell: I'm not picky about the name
[05:34] <mdz> if you want it to be specifically kde 4, that's fine with me
[05:35] <mdz> or you can split it into a workshop on kde 4, and a  forum to brainstorm other interesting things to do in Kubuntu
[05:35] <cjwatson> apport-gnome-cooperation moved to Tuesday
[05:35] <pitti> splendid
[05:36] <cjwatson> last thing Tuesday in the otherwise free slot, but you can't have everything
[05:36] <mdz> cjwatson: I've started assembling slides for the introduction, and I don't expect to have 90 minutes of talking to do
[05:36] <mdz> so we can potentially free up some space on sunday
[05:37] <cjwatson> we're not under *quite* that much pressure yet, but it may come
[05:37] <cjwatson> we could make how-was-feisty-for-you longer
[05:37] <cjwatson> it strikes me that there will probably be plenty of material in there
[05:38] <mdz> that could become a big brainstorming session
[05:38] <mdz> or we could do a demo
[05:39] <cjwatson> we already have lots of demo slots
[05:39] <cjwatson> later in the week, which I think is better really
[05:39] <mdz> I want to re-emphasize that we need more people devoted to the mobile effort
[05:40] <mdz> this is perhaps the single most important part of the summit, to get this sorted
[05:40] <fabbione> mdz: i added my self to the mobile schedule are you requested
[05:40] <mdz> fabbione: yes, thank you
[05:40] <mdz> there will be about 5-8 folks coming just to work on that
[05:41] <mdz> I'll be sending out an announcement about it soon
[05:42] <mdz> are there any questions about UDS?
[05:42] <mdz> this will be the first one for some of you
[05:43] <Riddell> will there be phone conferencing like at MTV?
[05:43] <mdz> if it's your first summit, it would behoove you to get a briefing on how it works
[05:43] <pitti> mdz: how do we handle subscription to dynamically scheduled specs?
[05:43] <mdz> Riddell: I have been told that there will be something similar, yes
[05:43] <mdz> pitti: just subscribe in launchpad as usual
[05:43] <pitti> mdz: greedy subscription again, or just ad-hoc on the evening for the next day?
[05:44] <mdz> pitti: I don't understand the question
[05:44] <pkl_> mdz: where can I get any briefings. as it's my first summit?  I was planning on picking everthing up when I got ther.
[05:45] <pitti> mdz: nevermind, if it didn't change, then my question is already answered
[05:45] <pitti> I overheard something about not subscribing to half a thousand specs this time to ease scheduling or so
[05:45] <cjwatson> mdz: I'm shortening the intro bits on Sunday and (for now) spreading out how-was-feisty over the break, but it might be best to turn that into two different things
[05:45] <fabbione> pkl_: get there saturday. offer beer to other developers .. developers will happily talk about the process. WIN
[05:45] <mdz> pkl_: talk to your line manager if you don't have a mentor to talk to already
[05:46] <cjwatson> pkl_: I can give you a call shortly after the meeting and we can go over it
[05:46] <pkl_> I was going to question BenC, as he's not about much at the moment, Saturday evening was my plan.
[05:46] <mvo> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-sevilla <- that is the list for dynamically specs, right? or is there more to look at
[05:46] <iwj> pitti's question AIUI is should we do what we were encouraged to do last time, which is to subscribe to lots of specs we're interested in, or should we leave ourselves out of the scheduler some more and simply turn up to things on the day ?
[05:47] <pitti> iwj: *nod*
[05:47] <pkl_> cjwatson: can we move the call to tomorrow?  I need to vote (in the Welsh assembly election and catch a train to Birmingham)?
[05:47] <mdz> mvo: yes
[05:47] <cjwatson> pkl_: I will be on a train tomorrow
[05:47] <pitti> erk, there's 'firewall' again; that's a SoC project
[05:47] <iwj> Why is winmodem-support on the schedule
[05:47] <iwj> ?
[05:47] <cjwatson> pkl_: but I'll happily go over it in person with you on Sunday evening
[05:47] <mdz> iwj,pitti: since subscription doesn't affect scheduling, you're free to do as you like
[05:47] <pkl_> cjwatson: OK, thanks.
[05:47] <mdz> subscription means that you'll be notified of state changes on the spec, and you'll have a personal agenda generated by the scheduler
[05:48] <iwj> Right.  I might do that by hand and eye instead.
[05:48] <cjwatson> pkl_: sorry, I mean Sat evening
[05:48] <mdz> iwj: because it's still a big concern for our users?
[05:48] <iwj> What I mean is is it not working ?
[05:49] <pkl_> cjwatson: OK, I assumed you meant Saturday :)
[05:49] <mdz> iwj: no, it is not
[05:49] <mdz> iwj: and the scope attempted for feisty apparently wasn't complete, either
[05:49] <iwj> OK, well, fine, let's discuss it at UDS then.
[05:49] <mdz> iwj: Keybuk has the details and can review this with you
[05:50] <iwj> Keybuk> Oh, good.
[05:50] <mdz> ok, anything further on UDS?
[05:50] <mdz> any non-UDS items to raise?
[05:51] <pitti> cjwatson: are you fine to sub to encrypted-file-systems for your installer expertise?
[05:51] <cjwatson> pitti: yes, I think last I looked it conflicted with something but that is not now the case
[05:51] <fabbione> pitti: i can be there for that. i have experience in partman*
[05:52] <iwj> pitti: Can you sub me to that ?  I'm trying to get a bit more into the installer and have some fs encryption experience.
[05:52] <fabbione> pitti: assuming cjwatson will trust me enough :)
[05:52] <iwj> Or I'll do it myself ...
[05:52] <pitti> fabbione: that would be nice as well; but we should also integrate it into ubiquity somehow
[05:52] <pitti> iwj: as you wish, I can do it quickly if you want
[05:52] <fabbione> pitti: i am pretty sure ubiquity will suck it almost automatically
[05:52] <iwj> Please.
[05:52] <cjwatson> fabbione: you are mistaken] 
[05:53] <cjwatson> depending perhaps on how much flexibility there is in "almost"
[05:53] <cjwatson> evand will need to be there for that; I've subscribed him
[05:53] <fabbione> cjwatson: well pretty much a lot..
[05:53] <pitti> iwj: done
[05:53] <fabbione> cjwatson: of flexibility
[05:53] <iwj> pitti: Ta.
[05:54] <cjwatson> fabbione: you're already subscribed to encrypted-filesystems anyway
[05:54] <cjwatson> at this point, people should feel free to commit agenda items themselvees
[05:54] <Riddell> do I need to register my specs in launchpad?
[05:54] <mdz> indeed
[05:54] <cjwatson> as your managers may well be travelling
[05:54] <cjwatson> I was due to do a mass spec registration
[05:54] <Riddell> cool
[05:54] <cjwatson> or in some cases renaming in the core scheduler
[05:54] <cjwatson> not quite sure when I'm going to fit that in, but I'll try ...
[05:55] <cjwatson> sftp://chinstrap/home/warthogs/archives/scott/schedulemaker/ for the recorrd
[05:56] <mdz> ok, looks like a wrap for the meeting
[05:56] <mdz> I'm looking forward to seeing everyone this weekend
[05:56] <mdz> travel safely and get some good sleep
[05:56] <mdz> thanks, everyone
[05:56] <fabbione> thanks
[05:56] <fabbione> cya there
[05:56] <pkl_> see you all there.
[05:56] <bdmurray> see you soon
[05:56] <asac> thanks ... cu all on sat/sun!
[05:57] <mvo> thanks
[05:57] <pitti> see you all, safe travels!
[05:57] <seb128> thanks
[05:57] <dholbach> thanks
[06:04] <iwj> pitti: You have an exploding poker set which contains flammable liquids like water ?
[06:52] <pitti> iwj: it's too big for me to carry in the hand luggage, and due to the braindead connection I want to avoid checking in luggage
[06:59] <iwj> Ah, poor connections.
[09:25] <nifan> b'noite