[01:30] <lapo_> hi
[03:32] <TheSheep> troy_s: ping
[03:59] <darkmatter> http://jimmac.musichall.cz/stuff/xgl-login.ogg  <--- we need to steal some ideas from SuSE ;P
[05:07] <nothlit> darkmatter: anything new on MorningGlory?
[05:11] <darkmatter> not yet.. just working on it now
[05:11] <darkmatter> :)
[06:21] <troy_s> TheSheep: Pong!
[06:27] <ra21vi> nothlit: are you there?
[06:28] <troy_s> greets ra21vi
[06:29] <troy_s> good to see you discussing some work on the community theme -- that's you correct?
[06:29] <troy_s> darkmatter: sabdfl is completely petrified of 'new' design.
[06:29] <troy_s> TheSheep: ping
[06:30] <ra21vi> yup,
[06:30] <ra21vi> troy_s: you too interested in that
[06:30] <troy_s> darkmatter: *sigh* that wallpaper on novel's is pretty petrified too.  lol.
[06:31] <troy_s> ra21vi: I have been for a while, but I am hoping that more community members get out and actually start pushing the boulder up the hill by providing some brainstorming material etc.
[06:32] <ra21vi> troy_s: actually I am not a good artists, its what myself tells me :]  but I do visualize and analyze things to some par
[06:32] <ra21vi> thats why I am interested do some research over new theme...
[06:32] <ra21vi> troy_s: will be back in 10 mins.. :|
[06:46] <ra21vi> troy_s: where are you? country
[06:47] <troy_s> Canada.
[06:49] <ra21vi> studying
[06:58] <darkmatter> troy_s, lol
[06:58] <troy_s> darkmatter: Its true man!
[06:58] <troy_s> darkmatter: I have discussed it with him at relative length.
[06:58] <troy_s> darkmatter: He simply doesn't get it.
[06:58] <troy_s> at _all_
[06:59] <troy_s> darkmatter: Further, as soon as you add in a colour to a design you get comments "I think the xxx color is confusing the palette" -- end quote.
[06:59] <troy_s> darkmatter: There is a complete VOID of knowledge, a complete VOID of status regarding art and design (its rather an afterthought or add - on), and a complete VOID of any sort of fundamental theory / approach.
[07:00] <darkmatter> aye
[07:00] <troy_s> To be honest however, it isn't like there are many distros that get it.
[07:00] <troy_s> darkmatter: Arguably there is ONE that is being pushed via the brain of D. Fong.
[07:01] <darkmatter> oh?
[07:01] <troy_s> darkmatter: Novell's is equally awful - not only blue, but nasty mundane.
[07:01] <troy_s> darkmatter: Yeah the Fedora work.  Against the odds, she is showing the community how it _must_ be approached.
[07:02] <troy_s> darkmatter: Better yet, she documented her process -- which is a step towards educating the buffoonary.
[07:03] <darkmatter> cool
[07:09] <TheSheep> troy_s: have you read any Paul Graham's essays?
[07:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: Negative.
[07:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: Have you browsed that design-emotion site?  There are some amazing interviews on there -- from Frogdesign to BMW etc.
[07:09] <TheSheep> http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html
[07:10] <TheSheep> troy_s: they mostly sound like "advertise with us, we will make you sell" :/
[07:10] <TheSheep> troy_s: not my area of interests
[07:11] <TheSheep> troy_s: and there is a lot of "what we can do for you if you pay us" and none "how we actually do it"
[07:13] <troy_s> There is an interesting quotation in there:
[07:13] <troy_s> The place to fight design wars is in new markets, where no one has yet managed to establish any fortifications. That's where you can win big by taking the bold approach to design, and having the same people both design and implement the product. Microsoft themselves did this at the start. So did Apple. And Hewlett-Packard. I suspect almost every successful startup has.
[07:14] <troy_s> Like painting, most software is intended for a human audience. And so hackers, like painters, must have empathy to do really great work. You have to be able to see things from the user's point of view.
[07:14] <troy_s> Boy, was I wrong. It turns out that looking at things from other people's point of view is practically the secret of success. It doesn't necessarily mean being self-sacrificing. Far from it. Understanding how someone else sees things doesn't imply that you'll act in his interest; in some situations-- in war, for example-- you want to do exactly the opposite.
[07:16] <TheSheep> know your enemy
[08:44] <troy_s> TheSheep: Was there a reason you pulled that article up?
[08:45] <troy_s> TheSheep: That site isn't great in terms of its own content (design emotion) but the articles are top shelf.
[08:45] <troy_s> TheSheep: The interviews with designers that are pretty hard to get interviews with.
[09:02] <ra21vi> so whats going on
[09:04] <TheSheep> troy_s: sorry, commuting :)
[09:04] <TheSheep> troy_s: well, I hit these essays myself recently, and I thought it's somehow related to what you're interested in
[09:05] <TheSheep> troy_s: especially http://www.paulgraham.com/taste.html
[09:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: Yes he is clueless on that count.
[09:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: I can't even begin to start reading something when someone dismisses relativism as 'fashionable'
[09:09] <TheSheep> :)
[09:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: It is the underlying structure that you _must_ deal with and _must_ build upon.
[09:10] <TheSheep> troy_s: scroll up and read the snippet you just pasted ;)
[09:10] <troy_s> TheSheep: If we _accept_ relativism, we can begin to do solid design consideration for the specific needs of particular group.
[09:10] <troy_s> TheSheep: Missing it... the 'boy was i wrong' quote?
[09:10] <TheSheep> troy_s: the guy may be wrong, but he basically puts into words the philosophy and approach of the hackerdom :)
[09:11] <troy_s> True enough.
[09:12] <ra21vi> Have you people read the MacOSX User Interface design guide?
[09:12] <ra21vi> troy_s: ^
[09:12] <troy_s> TheSheep: He certainly has an ability to phrase things in different analogous light.
[09:12] <troy_s> ra21vi: Yes.
[09:12] <ra21vi> troy_s: pretty informative, right
[09:12] <troy_s> ra21vi: And the Windows ones...
[09:12] <TheSheep> ra21vi: hardly -- it's all concerned about the spacing of buttons :/
[09:12] <troy_s> ra21vi: Informative is one thing... I think that the internal review process at Apple is more on point than the guide can be to outside developers.
[09:13] <troy_s> TheSheep: Hey I like that!
[09:13] <troy_s> TheSheep: That is a design blueprint.
[09:13] <troy_s> lol
[09:13] <ra21vi> troy_s: Windows guide, I could not find that, also, There is something good in windows UI, else much things are macs
[09:13] <TheSheep> ra21vi: the vista user experience guidelines it's called
[09:13] <ra21vi> are we in the process of reinventing the wheel
[09:13] <TheSheep> ra21vi: http://ui.sheep.art.pl/Human_Interface_Guidelines
[09:14] <TheSheep> vista's guidelines are actually pretty good
[09:14] <TheSheep> shame they provide the real solutions from vista as "don't do that" examples %)
[09:14] <ra21vi> TheSheep: I will read that, then would comment anythign
[09:14] <troy_s> ra21vi: No.  That assumes the 'wheel' works and is complete...
[09:15] <troy_s> ra21vi: Computers, in the desktop sense have only been around a few decads.
[09:15] <troy_s> decades...
[09:15] <troy_s> ra21vi: In terms of design, we can't cite a design pattern as we can in automobiles for example, which have a very clear aesthetic lineage now...
[09:15] <troy_s> ra21vi: If you look to automobiles in the first part of their existence, they were very much the same issues at hand that we are discussing now...
[09:15] <troy_s> ra21vi: Many preferred 'just make it go' approach
[09:15] <troy_s> ra21vi: Then empires were built on top of aesthetic driven design.
[09:16] <nothlit> Well UI isn't set in stone--it still evolving
[09:16] <troy_s> ra21vi: And even more so, distinct classes of aesthetic driven design -- for example -- look to the diversity that Toyota or Honda has provided to their users...
[09:16] <troy_s> nothlit: Exactly.
[09:16] <ra21vi> right
[09:16] <troy_s> ra21vi: For example, the Pilot has a very very very specific audience
[09:16] <ra21vi> but you evolve with somethign as base
[09:16] <troy_s> ra21vi: We have our base -- it is shit unfortunately.
[09:16] <TheSheep> troy_s: ever seen the models of Toyota and Honda produced for the japanese market? :)
[09:17] <TheSheep> troy_s: creeping featuritis
[09:17] <troy_s> ra21vi: We evolve from what we start as.  As of now, it is completely riddled with a mentality that is legacy of the wonderful and talented hardcore software coders.
[09:17] <troy_s> TheSheep: It is interesting though, that again, that appeals to that market.
[09:17] <ra21vi> dont confuse me with these long route examples
[09:17] <troy_s> TheSheep: again, the AUDIENCE governs all.
[09:17] <ra21vi> ok, here is a quick question...
[09:18] <ra21vi> tell the keywords you find Vista UI, Windows XP UI, and Apple UI
[09:18] <TheSheep> troy_s: I think that only coders and hackers actually want computers -- the rest is just after "smart" tv/vcr, e-mail, wwww, etc.
[09:18] <TheSheep> troy_s: and such devices begin to appear
[09:18] <troy_s> TheSheep: If we were able to acutely distinguish YOUR aesthetic, we could probably design something that is perfect for you that you would love.  This is all 'duh' to you however :)
[09:19] <ra21vi> no keywords,
[09:19] <ra21vi> lol
[09:19] <troy_s> TheSheep: My personal belief is that bloody operating systems should learn a thing or two from TV/VCR land.
[09:19] <nothlit> TheSheep: well imo, its leading more to form factors than function, with technology, function can be fluid.
[09:19] <troy_s> TheSheep: What worked, what doesn't.
[09:19] <ra21vi> I actually cann't get what you people are behind making
[09:19] <troy_s> nothlit: Form/Function is great -- but remember -- a very FUNCTIONAL aspect is aesthetics.
[09:20] <troy_s> ra21vi: You would need to have inside looks into the design process
[09:20] <troy_s> ra21vi: You don't get them coming out and saying those sorts of things --
[09:20] <troy_s> ra21vi: For example, what is Vista?
[09:20] <ra21vi> hmm
[09:20] <TheSheep> beautiful :)
[09:20] <troy_s> ra21vi: Pretty simple that 'beautiful' was a keyword
[09:20] <ra21vi> ok let me explain Vista...
[09:20] <nothlit> troy_s: as in form factors, (ie size,portability,screen size,ergonomics) vs internet,phone,tv,etc
[09:20] <troy_s> ra21vi: EVERYTHING is steered from it... look at the NAME, look at the DEFAULT WALLPAPER,
[09:20] <troy_s> that is a communicative goal.
[09:20] <TheSheep> troy_s: a line of products and services :)
[09:21] <troy_s> TheSheep: lol... yes hidden behind the illusion they want you to see.
[09:21] <troy_s> ra21vi: For example, take even the more 'abstract' wallpaper in vista
[09:21] <ra21vi> a resourse hungry, slow but intelligent towards Users experince (as they were said ot develop), much beutiful and evolved OS with centralized everything, and people o\know where the most of the things are
[09:21] <troy_s> notice the palette?  the shafts of light?
[09:21] <TheSheep> troy_s: actually more services than products
[09:21] <troy_s> yep -- taken straight out of underwater photography.
[09:22] <troy_s> ra21vi: In the end, computer operating systems seem to think they are exempt from the traditional knowledge of art and design.  This is simply not the case.
[09:22] <ra21vi> so which design principals you apply here
[09:22] <troy_s> ra21vi: So if we go back to the basics, you find that communication and audience generally govern all.
[09:22] <troy_s> Who are you communicating TO?
[09:22] <troy_s> WHAT are you communicating?
[09:22] <troy_s> That is about as simple as it gets.
[09:22] <TheSheep> troy_s: there is one small point
[09:23] <troy_s> and arguably, those two questions flow through every art movement in history.
[09:23] <troy_s> ra21vi: I don't understand your question.
[09:23] <troy_s> TheSheep: Go.
[09:23] <ra21vi> you can't decide what people like, ok, there is variety in likes and dislikes, therefore there are several music types, saveral other intefaces, clothers
[09:23] <TheSheep> troy_s: FSF was created exactly for the purpose to fight and break this way of doing business
[09:23] <troy_s> ra21vi: Great.  So you acknowledge point 1 of art and design.
[09:23] <TheSheep> troy_s: whole GPL is to fight "market"
[09:24] <troy_s> ra21vi: That is exactly my point -- you need to realize that your art and design will be LIKED and DISLIKED.
[09:24] <troy_s> that said, you can crank it up a notch and turn those into LOVED and HATED
[09:24] <troy_s> which is probably closer to where Apple is... when you start dealing with high end home design for example, it gets VERY polemical.
[09:24] <TheSheep> love and hate are bad for usablility but good for business
[09:24] <troy_s> or architecture for that matter.
[09:24] <troy_s> TheSheep: Good for usability too.
[09:25] <ra21vi> you have to find the things which everypeople (means most of people) expect (from their past experinces) and then evolve your designs from that common things'
[09:25] <TheSheep> the best interfaces are so boring tha they are not even noticed
[09:25] <troy_s> TheSheep: Users want interfaces that are "aesthetically" the way they want.
[09:25] <troy_s> ra21vi: Disagree.
[09:25] <ra21vi> TheSheep: like
[09:25] <TheSheep> troy_s: what users want and what is good for usability are two totally distincts things
[09:25] <troy_s> ra21vi: Do a little research into the history of art and how what is 'beautiful' changes
[09:25] <ra21vi> troy_s: where? at common users point
[09:26] <ra21vi> ok let me know if you like http://ra21vi.googlepages.com
[09:26] <troy_s> TheSheep: In the end, one could argue that the most lauded computer operating system in that regard is Apple -- and it is LOVED by its users.  It is completely daft to some however.
[09:26] <troy_s> ra21vi: well i think this is where traditional notions of demographics comes into play
[09:26] <troy_s> ra21vi: and why they are utilized just about everywhere.
[09:26] <ra21vi> troy_s: agree, apple has best thing in pocket (design and art)
[09:26] <troy_s> ra21vi: What is that?
[09:27] <ra21vi> troy_s: just look at the design and colors,
[09:27] <troy_s> ra21vi: But the thing that a lot of people are unwilling to see is that Apple is all about aesthetics and aesthetic choices.
[09:27] <TheSheep> ra21vi: increase letter spacing in these small-caps titles
[09:27] <troy_s> ra21vi: The colors are completely relative... hell the 'gel' look is dated now.
[09:27] <troy_s> etc.
[09:28] <troy_s> ra21vi: The trick is to hire the minds that specialize in paying attention to trends / context / etc.
[09:28] <ra21vi> troy_s: TheSheep : don't expect much in just 8hrs work
[09:28] <troy_s> ra21vi: What is that?
[09:28] <nothlit> Apple is about ease of use and product design
[09:28] <troy_s> ra21vi: I think it is quite good actually, I just don't know what it is.
[09:28] <troy_s> nothlit: For a particular audience.
[09:28] <troy_s> ;)
[09:29] <TheSheep> ra21vi: that's simple letter-spacing: 0.05em or something like that
[09:29] <ra21vi> troy_s: oh, that is nothing, a project for my university, a website centred arounf the google map and information relative to universtiy
[09:29] <troy_s> nothlit: Rephrased -- Apple is about ease of use for a mature north american audience.
[09:29] <nothlit> and those who want to be "mature"
[09:30] <troy_s> nothlit: In fact, I can guarantee that their audience is very clearly mapped out with age and the rest of it.
[09:30] <ra21vi> nothlit: i forgot whats the name of the theme you developed?
[09:30] <troy_s> nothlit: True enough.
[09:31] <TheSheep> troy_s: ease of learning and exploration may be culture-dependent, same aestetics, but all people are build the same and have similar congnitive processes -- so the underlying structure can be optimized for general audience
[09:31] <troy_s> ra21vi: To which thing are you referring?
[09:31] <troy_s> TheSheep: Theoretically yes.  That has been proven wrong regarding aesthetic value judgements however -- consider the learning of Phi as expressed during the Ren and compare it to the aesthetics issued in certain regions.
[09:31] <troy_s> TheSheep: So the old nurture versus nature argument pops up again.
[09:32] <nothlit> ra21vi: .? "CommunityTheme" ? lol?
[09:32] <TheSheep> ra21vi: ubun2 ?
[09:32] <ra21vi> troy_s: using light color as base and have very light background with good contrast objects over it in theme and all other things
[09:32] <troy_s> TheSheep: Arguably, I would LOVE to believe that, but I can't based on my knowledge or research.
[09:32] <nothlit> ra21vi: someone else made 'OranSun', is that what you're talking about?
[09:32] <ra21vi> nothlit: yup, i thought its your :|
[09:33] <TheSheep> troy_s: well, you come from the marketing-driven end :)
[09:33] <TheSheep> troy_s: there user *decissions* mean more
[09:33] <troy_s> ra21vi: Functionally you make a very distinct choice when you go into contrast for wallpapers -- you lose your work on the desktop in icons etc, but you can more expressively communicate with higher contrast.  Just depends on what you set out on your plate as an audience.
[09:33] <troy_s> TheSheep: Actually, no... I come from the artsty farsty part.
[09:33] <troy_s> TheSheep: Meaning that there is no such thing as universal anywhere.
[09:33] <ra21vi> TheSheep: no bro, its the thing that, if you give much complex colors filling the screen, it would attract some, and for only little time
[09:33] <troy_s> TheSheep: It is entirely relatavistic -- and embracing that is no shortcoming.
[09:34] <TheSheep> troy_s: so you don't agree with what Donald Norman wrote in The Design of Everyday Things?
[09:34] <troy_s> TheSheep: relativity often overlooks, however, Context
[09:34] <troy_s> TheSheep: Which particular statement out of that?
[09:34] <troy_s> ra21vi: That is a broad sweeping statement.  I assure you it is false.
[09:35] <TheSheep> troy_s: well, he's giving a number of universal patterns for usable design, based on the human thought process and perception
[09:35] <ra21vi> troy_s: lol, then I am disqualified
[09:35] <troy_s> ra21vi: When choosing colours, you have about three elements to consider:  Context, Culture, and Communication.
[09:35] <TheSheep> troy_s: I'd say he suggests that they are meant to make the design generally better, no matter the audience
[09:35] <troy_s> TheSheep: Yes, it just doesn't hold up in reality.
[09:36] <troy_s> TheSheep: Again, some cultures in Africa for example, compose in a circular format.
[09:36] <ra21vi> whats the Global culture you know>? there is many.. cant serve all
[09:36] <troy_s> (again related to all sorts of thigns that are specific to their culture)
[09:36] <troy_s> ra21vi: Better get used to it.
[09:36] <troy_s> ra21vi: There is no Global Culture.
[09:36] <troy_s> ra21vi: That's that bullshit utopian crap that you read in blogs.
[09:36] <ra21vi> troy_s: means?
[09:36] <TheSheep> troy_s: well, if you can just *see* how somethng works, you don't need cultural assumptions and constraints to operate it
[09:37] <troy_s> TheSheep: Aesthetically, it simply doesn't hold up.  Hell look at portraiture from prior to the ren -- look at the compositional symmetry versus assymetrical
[09:37] <troy_s> TheSheep: Yes... but what I am suggesting is that EVEN if you say all humans have FIVE fingers on each hand, it doesn't IMPLY that they all will do the same things with them.
[09:37] <TheSheep> troy_s: I'm not talking about aestetics here, I mean about ussing the thing
[09:37] <troy_s> TheSheep: And a good chunk of that is 'what they know'
[09:37] <troy_s> TheSheep: Being culture / environment
[09:38] <troy_s> TheSheep: If it applies to aesthetics, it also applies to using -- they are synonymous.
[09:38] <troy_s> TheSheep: Again, I am a pretty big beliver in miller's work on magic 7
[09:38] <troy_s> TheSheep: But I am also quite willing to acknowledge that there is probably a culture that is an exception to that 'rule'
[09:39] <troy_s> ra21vi: Meaning that there is NO such creature as 'perfect' in any shape.
[09:39] <nothlit> Something can be very aethetically appealing without being functional or usable...
[09:39] <troy_s> nothlit: And in fact, being aesthetically appealing
[09:39] <troy_s> nothlit: Actually influences usability
[09:39] <TheSheep> a little
[09:39] <troy_s> nothlit: It is called the 'Aesthetic Usability Effect' as a general term
[09:39] <troy_s> TheSheep:  A _lot_
[09:39] <troy_s> I can't remember who coined it...
[09:39] <troy_s> (again probalby north american based too -- so take with caution)
[09:40] <troy_s> let me dig out a reference
[09:40] <troy_s> "Aesthetic designs are perceived as easier to use than less-aesthetic designs."
[09:40] <troy_s> see
[09:41] <troy_s> "Apparent Usability vs. Inherent Usability:  Experimental Analysis on the Determinants of the Apparent Usabililty" by
[09:41] <troy_s> Masaaki Kurosu and Kaori Kashimura CHI '95
[09:41] <troy_s> Conference Companion, 1995, p. 292-293
[09:41] <troy_s> phew
[09:41] <nothlit> perception, of course, but with continued use--its factor is <greatly> diminished
[09:41] <troy_s> nothlit: Disagree... look to apple.
[09:41] <troy_s> lol
[09:41] <troy_s> Apple is all about aesthetic.
[09:42] <troy_s> and a good deal of the usability foobardom in there is 'Wow its apple'
[09:42] <troy_s> It creates an atmosphere where people look over the smaller details that might not work, and see the bigger picture.
[09:42] <troy_s> see
[09:42] <ra21vi> ok guys I can't understand whats goingon really... pretty confusing to me
[09:43] <ra21vi> but what I can say, here it is...
[09:43] <troy_s> "Emotion and Design:  Attractive Things Work Better" by Donald Norman, www.jnd.org, 2002 if it is still up
[09:43] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's more about emotions than aestetics themselves, although they affect emotions greatly
[09:43] <nothlit> troy_s: well for me anyways--as time goes on i only look at it as a tool--and in fact aesthetics can sometimes decrease my productivity
[09:43] <nothlit> troy_s: i end up staring at my patched antialiased fonts instead of using the ui :)
[09:43] <troy_s> nothlit: Then it isn't aesthetically appealing to you !
[09:43] <troy_s> lol
[09:43] <lapo_> hi
[09:43] <TheSheep> nothlit: tool are aestetic too, it depends on how much you know about them. LISP *is8 beautiful
[09:43] <troy_s> nothlit: Again, never mistake aesthetics -- if you like it -- it is aesthetically pleasing.
[09:44] <troy_s> TheSheep: I would agree... chairs can be too.
[09:44] <troy_s> greets lapo
[09:44] <TheSheep> troy_s: a monkey wrench can be beautiful :)
[09:44] <troy_s> The overall point is that there is NO such creature as 'beautiful'
[09:44] <nothlit> It is lol--but I don't see it anymore, I shift behaviors with repetitive use
[09:44] <lapo> hey troy_s
[09:44] <troy_s> except when examined in terms of context and culture.
[09:44] <troy_s> nothlit: Which is exactly why aesthetics evolve.
[09:45] <troy_s> Even a most precursory examination of art trends (say art 101 style thinking)
[09:45] <troy_s> would illuminate that.
[09:45] <TheSheep> troy_s: I want to show you a certain icon design, that's totally unaestetic and unusable, yet affects emotion positively
[09:45] <nothlit> TheSheep: sure--but i'm talking about the visuals rather than the structure
[09:45] <troy_s> TheSheep: Go
[09:45] <troy_s> TheSheep: Love to see it.
[09:45] <nothlit> oh
[09:45] <troy_s> TheSheep: Although arguably, EVERYTHING has an aesthetic component.
[09:45] <nothlit> the stripy theme?
[09:45] <nothlit> i d/led that lol
[09:45] <troy_s> ra21vi: What were you going to see?
[09:45] <troy_s> nothlit: DId you see that lith icon set I posted ages ago?
[09:45] <troy_s> Very stylized.
[09:46] <troy_s> Very shiek.
[09:46] <troy_s> sheik even.
[09:46] <troy_s> lol
[09:46] <TheSheep> troy_s: http://xoomer.alice.it/bat/tmp/Schermata.png
[09:46] <ra21vi> i was thinking of sticking to real environment, creating real objects (look wise) and giving the feel of depth and sharpness in edges,
[09:47] <troy_s> ra21vi: Probably need a sample
[09:47] <lapo> TheSheep: woah, what's that junk?! :-)
[09:47] <troy_s> ra21vi: I would put it on the scrapbook
[09:47] <TheSheep> lapo: hehe
[09:47] <ra21vi> I read and have tested it that when there is no much contrast and sharpness in objects, it creates strain to eyes and aesthetic objects soon loses its all things
[09:47] <troy_s> Wow... talk about strange lol.
[09:47] <nothlit> troy_s: no i don't think so
[09:47] <troy_s> ra21vi: As soon as I read eye 'strain' I vomit.
[09:47] <TheSheep> troy_s: see, it's funny
[09:47] <nothlit> shiek? not chic?
[09:48] <troy_s> nothlit: Yeah weird eh?
[09:48] <troy_s> http://www.i4designmagazine.com/events.php
[09:48] <troy_s> read the first line
[09:48] <troy_s> TheSheep: Not exactly
[09:48] <ra21vi> your eyes are better than my
[09:48] <troy_s> TheSheep: For one, the first thing I read out of those icons is that they are for the gay crowd
[09:49] <troy_s> TheSheep: Deadly serious -- as the rainbow is iconographic of the queer crowd.  Again, context!
[09:49] <troy_s> :)
[09:49] <TheSheep> troy_s: I have severa gay friends and I can assure you their tastes are nothing like that
[09:49] <troy_s> erm probably more culture in that case.
[09:49] <nothlit> i think of the second definition lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheik :)
[09:49] <troy_s> TheSheep: I have many too... but I see that icon set more as icon -- motif through a colour pattern.
[09:50] <troy_s> nothlit: Strange though eh?
[09:50] <TheSheep> troy_s: I see it as a gag :)
[09:50] <troy_s> chic and sheik
[09:50] <troy_s> lol
[09:50] <troy_s> TheSheep: It still communicates.
[09:50] <troy_s> TheSheep: Which is the entire point...
[09:50] <TheSheep> of course
[09:51] <nothlit> really? i thought of young girls who want rainbows and pretty colours and pink everywhere
[09:51] <darkmatter> TheSheep, one can also see it as "ARRRGGHHH! MY EYES!" :P
[09:51] <troy_s> nothlit: Its true -- I have one!
[09:51] <TheSheep> in this aspect it's much better than the default gnome theme :)
[09:51] <nothlit> TheSheep: btw folder-saved-search.svg is my favorite :P
[09:51] <troy_s> darkmatter: My daughter would disagree with you to the death.
[09:51] <darkmatter> lol
[09:51] <troy_s> TheSheep: WOOT
[09:51] <TheSheep> nothlit: I love my little ponny with long hair waaah! ;)
[09:51] <troy_s> TheSheep: MyLittle Ponies are gifted with their ability to suck them in, true.
[09:52] <troy_s> TheSheep: But I can almost assure you she would love those icons.
[09:52] <troy_s> TheSheep: I read a very good article on children aesthetic values
[09:52] <TheSheep> troy_s: wonder why they don't make goth little ponies ;)
[09:52] <troy_s> TheSheep: It basically was predicated on the notion that children haven't exactly been exposed to many different aesthetic ranges, so their idea of 'difference' is built on dramatic degrees.
[09:53] <troy_s> Hence the tendency for children to fall prey to the primary colour motifs.
[09:53] <troy_s> TheSheep: Very interesting stuffs.
[09:53] <TheSheep> makes sense
[09:53] <TheSheep> then again, anything does ;)
[09:53] <troy_s> TheSheep: Woo the LSD!
[09:53] <TheSheep> troy_s: peace brother
[09:53] <troy_s> TheSheep: Is it coincidence that Steve Jobs considers one of the most valuable things he has ever done to be LSD?
[09:53] <troy_s> TheSheep: I THINK NOT
[09:53] <troy_s> lol
[09:53] <troy_s> lmao
[09:54] <troy_s> nothlit: Aim high on the creativity target.
[09:54] <TheSheep> I rememeber that comparison of webs spiders make after iniecting them with LSD and caffeine
[09:54] <ra21vi> zzzz
[09:54] <ra21vi> ok, going to sleep...
[09:55] <ra21vi> bye
[09:55] <TheSheep> ra21vi: bye
 ok guys I can't understand whats goingon really... pretty confusing to me
[09:55] <TheSheep> haha
[09:55] <TheSheep> stream of consciousness :)
[09:55] <troy_s> Yep.
[09:55] <TheSheep> sink or swim
[09:55] <troy_s> The webs are bloody cool.
[09:55] <lapo> LSD...interesting, I have a manual somewhere on how to make it :-)
[09:55] <troy_s> lol.
[09:56] <troy_s> lapo its pretty easy if you extract it from morning glory seeds or hawwain woodrose
[09:56] <troy_s> fuck my spelling sucks ass.
[09:56] <troy_s> lol
[09:56] <troy_s> wtf is that?!
[09:56] <TheSheep> troy_s: there was some suggestion to compare the spiders to the modern programmers mostly only living off coffee and cola ;)
[09:56] <troy_s> LOL
[09:56] <lapo> eheh
[09:56] <TheSheep> and webs to the programs they make
[09:56] <lapo> that caffeine and cola thing is an american myth tho
[09:57] <troy_s> lapo: +1
[09:57] <nothlit> lapo: thinkgeek would disagree lol
[09:57] <troy_s> nothlit: anyways, you should get those words out so I can create a launchpad poll.
[09:57] <troy_s> under:
[09:57] <nothlit> lol
[09:57] <troy_s> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art/+polls
[09:58] <TheSheep> troy_s: I pretty much believe in Pirsing's notion of Quality
[09:58] <nothlit> kk
[09:58] <troy_s> Then we can perhaps work on a palette with a (relatively) democratic selection.
[09:58] <TheSheep> haha, democratic art, that's grand
[09:58] <troy_s> TheSheep: Prising is coming up as 'command not found' in my head.
[09:58] <TheSheep> troy_s: "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"
[09:58] <troy_s> TheSheep: I think democracy has its place really -- and I firmly believe it.
[09:58] <TheSheep> troy_s: good read
[09:59] <troy_s> TheSheep: Rather like illusion though --
[09:59] <troy_s> TheSheep: It is what I do with my daughter -- I provide her two choices
[09:59] <troy_s> and she picks one.
[09:59] <TheSheep> troy_s: democracy is a nce tool for managing people
[09:59] <TheSheep> troy_s: but not for getting thngs done
[09:59] <troy_s> TheSheep: Disagree.
[09:59] <troy_s> TheSheep: If the flow of democracy is directed, it gets done fine.
[09:59] <TheSheep> hah
[09:59] <troy_s> TheSheep: No guarantee on quality, but then again, there isn't without it either.
[10:00] <TheSheep> directed democracy, I must remember that
[10:00] <troy_s> TheSheep: Lol.
[10:00] <troy_s> TheSheep: Well... voting for example
[10:00] <troy_s> TheSheep: That's directed democracy
[10:00] <troy_s> TheSheep: Vote for Bush or Blah
[10:00] <troy_s> Not exactly democratic, but it arrives at a conclusion.
[10:00] <TheSheep> yup yup
[10:00] <troy_s> Again, and perhaps very relevant to that example, you are never assured quality.
[10:01] <TheSheep> reminds me of collecting statistics for a scientific paper :)
[10:01] <troy_s> But the good news is that those who participate HOPEFULLY learn
[10:01] <TheSheep> once you already have the paper written and just miss the diagrams
[10:01] <troy_s> Hell, we need look no further than say, Ubuntu's look to realize that the other side sucks ass too.
[10:01] <TheSheep> 90% of anything sucks
[10:02] <troy_s> TheSheep: Relative world :)  There are only paradoxes when you try to mix vantage points.  I think some idiot named Einstein said that ages ago...
[10:02] <darkmatter> hey troy_s this is for you http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=484184032&size=o
[10:02] <darkmatter> *runs*
[10:02] <troy_s> LOL
[10:02] <troy_s> actually, i like the simplicity of the actual interface though, if I must admit.
[10:02] <troy_s> :)
[10:02] <darkmatter> yup
[10:02] <lapo> TheSheep: and the other 10% is so and so :-)
[10:02] <TheSheep> hehe, start menu strikes back
[10:02] <troy_s> well aside from the stupid
[10:02] <troy_s> "what the fuck are those" icons down below
[10:02] <troy_s> that mean feck all.
[10:03] <TheSheep> darkmatter: this is wrong in so many ways I just lack words :)
[10:03] <nothlit> darkmatter: that looks like suse
[10:03] <troy_s> nothlit: Methinks it is.
[10:03] <darkmatter> no.. thats ubuntu
[10:03] <nothlit> troy_s: with the ubuntu help center lol
[10:03] <troy_s> again, though, to a mainstream user, that panel is useless.
[10:03] <troy_s> lol
[10:03] <TheSheep> time to install debian...
[10:03] <darkmatter> me found the gtkrc for gilouche 2.0 and tossed together the missing pgs
[10:03] <troy_s> Which get's back to TheSheep's idea of TVs and VCRs
[10:04] <troy_s> is that sled darkmatter ?
[10:04] <darkmatter> feisty
[10:04] <darkmatter> :P
[10:04] <TheSheep> troy_s: and dedicated devices for receiving e-mails, like blueberry
[10:04] <nothlit> troy_s: 10 foot interfaces :D
[10:04] <troy_s> TheSheep: No reason your computer can't do it too -- just more hidden
[10:04] <nothlit> htpc software is exciting and new in terms of ui
[10:04] <troy_s> nothlit: I am all for them if mainstream folks can use them.
[10:04] <TheSheep> troy_s: most people don't even want computers in their homes
[10:04] <troy_s> nothlit: But TIVO derivative.
[10:04] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's an intruder
[10:04] <troy_s> TheSheep: Exactly the point -- look at them
[10:04] <troy_s> TheSheep: They look like shit
[10:05] <TheSheep> troy_s: some are nice
[10:05] <troy_s> TheSheep: Christ, do you want Ubuntu's default look in YOUR feckign living room?
[10:05] <troy_s> TheSheep: Gah.
[10:05] <troy_s> Or, for that matter -- ANY distro?
[10:05] <nothlit> I like japanese notebook design :)
[10:05] <troy_s> gah gah
[10:05] <troy_s> nothlit: Link?
[10:05] <troy_s> I want something that LOOKS like it belongs in a home.
[10:05] <troy_s> Not a basement.
[10:05] <nothlit> troy_s: =/ ehh.. there was a slim siemens
[10:05] <troy_s> I doubt I am alone.
[10:06] <nothlit> i don't buy the light form factor notebooks, wouldn't know their names
[10:07] <troy_s> darkmatter: Is that sled?
[10:07] <darkmatter> no
[10:07] <darkmatter> its feisty
[10:07] <troy_s> wtf is it?!
[10:07] <darkmatter> :P
[10:07] <troy_s> no the menu you stinker
[10:07] <TheSheep> troy_s: http://flickr.com/photos/zapwizard/sets/269920/
[10:07] <troy_s> darkmatter: ?
[10:07] <darkmatter> its the gnome-main-menu
[10:07] <troy_s> nothlit: I don't know if rablah gets it.
[10:07] <troy_s> nothlit: I worry.
[10:07] <darkmatter> not sled... sleds a bloated os
[10:07] <darkmatter> :P
[10:08] <troy_s> nothlit: I fear more of the u-a crowd is right there.
[10:08] <troy_s> um... darkmatter i mean the S launcher
[10:08] <troy_s> whatever the hell it is calle.d
[10:08] <troy_s> darkmatter: What is that launcher
[10:08] <troy_s> TheSheep: yes... that's the shit
[10:08] <darkmatter> its called the "gnome-main-menu version 2" :P
[10:08] <troy_s> TheSheep: although I don't like the stylings in general...
[10:09] <lapo> ugh what's that wooden mess
[10:09] <troy_s> darkmatter: is it a mock?
[10:09] <troy_s> darkmatter: Or a real package?
[10:09] <darkmatter> no.. its from svn
[10:09] <TheSheep> troy_s: they are deadly serious about it
[10:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: http://flickr.com/photos/zapwizard/28866253/in/set-269920/
[10:09] <troy_s> they should be
[10:09] <troy_s> it is RIGHT on the mark
[10:09] <darkmatter> though I had to hack it a bit to play nice with brownbumpoo
[10:09] <darkmatter> errr
[10:09] <lapo> TheSheep: ugh
[10:09] <darkmatter> ubuntu*
[10:09] <troy_s> and now compare how Ubuntu works from a semantic standpoint with that design
[10:09] <darkmatter> sorry... honest typo
[10:09] <nothlit> troy_s: well they don't understand that our chosen process starts from a much deeper foundation--they're distracted with sweeping generalisations and ui hangups
[10:09] <troy_s> lapo: Ugh?  Please.
[10:09] <troy_s> nothlit: Amen my brother.  Amen.
[10:10] <nothlit> troy_s: i think that once we get it going, they'll catch on
[10:10] <lapo> troy_s: c'mon it's a good tecnology abuse! :-)
[10:10] <troy_s> lapo: It is too busy in styling for my taste, but that said, it is a helluva lot down the right path.
[10:10] <TheSheep> troy_s: modding is expenisve
either that or we'll shove diana fongs process down everyone's throats</>
[10:10] <troy_s> lapo: As in, at least that direction has a future...
[10:10] <troy_s> TheSheep: The case I am bundling up for u2 is dead cheap actually.
[10:11] <TheSheep> hah
[10:11] <troy_s> TheSheep: Deadly cheap.  Simple solid pine plunged.
[10:11] <troy_s> nothlit: lol
[10:11] <lapo> troy_s: yeah, you can use it in the fireplace :-)
[10:11] <TheSheep> troy_s: what about fire safety precautions? ;)
[10:11] <troy_s> nothlit: Yeah what does she know... lol.
[10:11] <troy_s> nothlit: Again though, there are too many legacy mindsets out in the wild.
[10:11] <troy_s> lapo: I hope you are kidding.
[10:12] <nothlit> oh--you know who does some great woodwork? audio-technica
[10:12] <lapo> a computer like that has no bugs it has woodworms
[10:12] <troy_s> lapo: If not, I challenge you to show that design (as not quite right as it might be) to mainstream.
[10:12] <troy_s> lapo: Wood is good.
[10:12] <troy_s> lapo: And quite frankly, far more contemporary design (although again, my aesthetic stylings are slightly different)
[10:12] <troy_s> nothlit: The audio guys are TOP shelf wood types
[10:12] <lapo> troy_s: sure looking at all the computer brand design it looks like the future, used quite a lot eh? :-)
[10:12] <troy_s> nothlit: Look at some of B&W's stuff.
[10:12] <TheSheep> I acrually love this: http://steampunkworkshop.com/keyboard.shtml
[10:13] <troy_s> lapo: Please.
[10:13] <TheSheep> (scroll to bottom)
[10:13] <lapo> troy_s: the use of wood in audio is not only for design reasons
[10:13] <troy_s> lapo: You really need to give your head a shake.  Future implies NOT NOW.
[10:13] <troy_s> lapo: Actually, again, they have done research that shows that particle board performs better than wood
[10:13] <troy_s> lapo: In many instances
[10:13] <troy_s> (believe it or not)
[10:14] <troy_s> lapo: So it is almost always strictly aesthetic lending back to notions of crafted instruments.
[10:14] <nothlit> lapo: lol--in terms of audio-technica... its done a lot more for aesthetic reasons than sound
[10:14] <lapo> troy_s: I don't really think it is future, wood is a lot more expensive then plastic or metal in series productions so I don't really think it can be a viable design way
[10:14] <troy_s> nothlit: AMen.
[10:14] <troy_s> lapo: Wait and see then... :)
[10:14] <troy_s> lapo: But mark the words.
[10:14] <nothlit> they can't get that flat frequency reproduction easily--and it bumps the price way up.
[10:14] <troy_s> lapo: That is the difference between looking at trends and design outside of the given field.
[10:15] <troy_s> lapo: Our little crowd is far too closed minded.  It only opens when someone else does it.
[10:15] <lapo> nothlit: yeah, right the best wood in audio use is MDF which looks quite bad
[10:15] <troy_s> lapo: But it is great for acoustics!
[10:15] <troy_s> lol
[10:15] <lapo> infact it's usually covered in nicer wood
[10:15] <TheSheep> troy_s: you can't design outside of trend if everything is relative :P
[10:15] <troy_s> nothlit: But it is interesting how many people actually firmly believe that the wood offers better acoustic curves... design illusion?
[10:16] <troy_s> TheSheep: Damn you and your LSD.
[10:16] <troy_s> TheSheep: We really needed to know each other back in the University years... lol.
[10:16] <TheSheep> troy_s: you're welcome
[10:16] <troy_s> TheSheep: On a serious note, having that caution I think is darn important no matter what era you are in.
[10:16] <lapo> troy_s: wood usually offer better sound, but MDF that is not nice expensive wood (variable density is bad) :-)
[10:17] <troy_s> lapo: The point is, the bulk of wood in audio high end design is strictly aesthetic
[10:17] <troy_s> lapo: And it has a long legacy of aesthetic reasoning behind it.
[10:17] <troy_s> lapo: Connotation to instruments is probably JUST the starting point.
[10:17] <lapo> troy_s: yeah
[10:18] <troy_s> lapo: I should show you the art designers work fro "The Final Cut"
[10:18] <troy_s> lapo:  Let me dig them out... hold on ok?
[10:18] <TheSheep> music instruments are the usbalility nightmare and dream at the same time
[10:18] <troy_s> (i know the guy who designed the unit -- so I have some photos)
[10:18] <lapo> troy_s: anyway look at the design of the latest audio creation the wood is not used so much nowdays
[10:18] <lapo> creations
[10:18] <troy_s> lapo: But that is audio.
[10:19] <troy_s> lapo:  What we discuss here is viable design patterns that have yet to be applied to computing.
[10:19] <nothlit> lapo: warm sound does <not> equal truthful reproduction
[10:19] <lapo> nothlit: yeah
[10:19] <troy_s> feck thank god for gmail
[10:20] <nothlit> plus Wood can blunt sound and obscure clarity and detail
[10:21] <lapo> nothlit: yeah, but sound is a strange beast
[10:21] <lapo> nothlit: very subjective since there are no "true" way to measure it
[10:21] <troy_s> sound is again, about aesthetics.
[10:21] <troy_s> after all...
[10:22] <lapo> yas
[10:22] <lapo> yes even
[10:22] <troy_s> some guys hear the cardboard woofer in techshopisus
[10:22] <troy_s> and go WOW
[10:22] <troy_s> lapo: Now bear in mind that Kelvin had to make this unit fully functional
[10:23] <troy_s> lapo: So the laptop actually worked (as Robin had to use it in the movie)
[10:23] <troy_s> and yes... its 100% wood.
[10:23] <troy_s> (which is rather cool)
[10:23] <TheSheep> well, the cpu is silicon... ;)
[10:24] <TheSheep> troy_s: lemme see too!
[10:24] <troy_s> TheSheep: the board...
[10:24] <troy_s> lol
[10:24] <troy_s> hold on...
[10:24] <troy_s> wiking
[10:24] <lapo> all te paths are metal, its's not 100% wood! :-)
[10:24] <troy_s> These were shipped by a friend so please don't spread the images.
[10:25] <troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubun2design/temp
[10:26] <TheSheep> I wants
[10:27] <troy_s> The laptop sits in the middle (look to the finger depth gouge)
[10:27] <troy_s> so the center point is the
[10:27] <troy_s> laptop
[10:27] <troy_s> (also notice that the director wanted a 60's russian feel to the tech so there are
[10:27] <lapo> TheSheep: nice I want the steampunk keyboard!
[10:27] <troy_s> wood motifs along the edges)
[10:27] <troy_s> lapo: STEAMPUNK -- WOOP
[10:27] <troy_s> isn't that keyboard fecking beautiful?!
[10:28] <troy_s> kelvin had a bitch getting the internals into that lappy
[10:28] <troy_s> lol
[10:28] <nothlit> lapo: what? you can certainly measure accurate reproduction
[10:28] <TheSheep> lapo: there is this... building called Stary Browar in poznan: http://www.starybrowar.pl
[10:28] <lapo> troy_s: yeah, but that's a lot different from the other wooden design
[10:28] <troy_s> i think the point is, styling AGAIN aside (as that unit is for a particular bit of movie magic), THAT direction fits into most modern maintstream livingrooms better than ANTYHING curretnly out there.
[10:28] <TheSheep> lapo: a huge steampunk building
[10:29] <troy_s> lapo: That's the point.
[10:29] <lapo> nothlit: nope you cannot
[10:29] <nothlit> lapo: and i'm guessing words just warm/ crisp/ etc can be quantified
[10:29] <troy_s> TheSheep: You are Czechland correct?
[10:29] <lapo> nothlit: yeah but your perception of crispness is different then mine
[10:29] <TheSheep> troy_s: Poland
[10:29] <nothlit> lapo: a lot of descriptions of the sound of a speaker or headphone are actually characteristics of the spectrum reproduction
[10:29] <TheSheep> troy_s: close
[10:29] <troy_s> uh oh... WELCOME BACK TO RELATVISIM
[10:30] <troy_s> TheSheep: do you know of kristof kieslowski's work?
[10:30] <troy_s> (bloody amazing)
[10:30] <TheSheep> troy_s: yes
[10:30] <TheSheep> troy_s: bloody
[10:30] <nothlit> troy_s: thats that robin williams movie thing
[10:30] <lapo> nothlit: yes, but it involves how your brain get those, teorically the cd should be the best media for music
[10:30] <troy_s> nothlit: Yes.
[10:30] <nothlit> with the memory footage editor
[10:31] <nothlit> lapo: and your cilia/earshape etc :D
[10:31] <lapo> nothlit: cause the hears should not get more then 44khz, but a vynil sounds better
[10:31] <TheSheep> direct neural transmission is the best media for music ;)
[10:31] <troy_s> Can we not just accept that EVERYTHING IN THE BLOODY WORLD IS RELATIVE?  Just accept that Einstein, as much as he BOTCHED "Spooky action at a distance", was deadly right.
[10:31] <troy_s> TheSheep: Depends on your cabling.
[10:31] <TheSheep> troy_s: ZAP!
[10:31] <troy_s> lapo: "better"(tm)
[10:31] <nothlit> TheSheep: =/
[10:31] <troy_s> lapo: Some people would kill you if they read that ;)
[10:31] <TheSheep> troy_s: plug directly into the pleasure centers and you're done ;)
[10:31] <nothlit> TheSheep: then everybody would hear what the mic recorded, not what their ears normally hear
[10:31] <lapo> troy_s: uhm?
[10:32] <troy_s> nothlit: Yes... those photos were taken by the art director (whom i know)
[10:32] <troy_s> lapo: Not everyone is vinyl zealot.
[10:32] <lapo> troy_s: the same recording objectivelly is better sounding then a cd which the right equipment
[10:32] <troy_s> TheSheep: Still depends on your cabling to your brain lol.  BRAINPHILES UNITE!
[10:32] <nothlit> lapo: there are high fidelity optical formats beyond 'cd' lol
[10:32] <troy_s> lapo: The Naim guys might disagree.
[10:32] <troy_s> lol
[10:32] <lapo> nothlit: yeah sure
[10:33] <lapo> troy_s: the Naim guys will surelly agree, believe me :-)
[10:33] <nothlit> troy_s: rofl--don't wander into the cables argument
[10:33] <troy_s> nothlit: Lol.
[10:33] <lapo> troy_s: ask to any audiophile if he prefers a cd of a vynil and see :-)
[10:33] <nothlit> pfft original tape ftw ;)
[10:33] <troy_s> nothlit: Sorry, my buddy knows two high end cable company owners... so he gets all sorts of stupid priced 60,000$ per linear foot type samples to try.
[10:33] <TheSheep> troy_s: ever seen the Blickenderfers typewriter?
[10:34] <troy_s> lapo: I know many
[10:34] <troy_s> lapo: I work in the film industry remember -- I have guys who spend their entire lives listening and build careers around it.
[10:34] <troy_s> lapo: And again, it varies from person to person.
[10:34] <lapo> troy_s: if they think a cd sounds better then a vynil they should really be fired :-)
[10:34] <TheSheep> http://www.acmqueue.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=98 <-- certain usability expert on audio cabling :)
[10:35] <troy_s> lapo: And MANY prefer digital to vinyl.  In fact, I know of one academy award winner and one emmy award winner who would lose it on the Vinyl argument.
[10:35] <lapo> troy_s: digital, not cd :-)
[10:35] <troy_s> lapo: One was a big believer in analog tape too... he verted.
[10:35] <troy_s> oh lord...
[10:35] <troy_s> um.
[10:35] <troy_s> hello?
[10:35] <troy_s> DaC?
[10:35] <troy_s> Anyways, off-topic for this guys head.
[10:36] <lapo> troy_s: cd = 44.1khz
[10:36] <troy_s> in the end, its all a relative mess, and for the large part, the audience doesn't deal with the techy ramblings of the crazies.
[10:36] <lapo> 16bit
[10:36] <troy_s> super... its still digital.
[10:37] <troy_s> Mozart used only M-audio stuff.
[10:37] <TheSheep> troy_s: no vinyl? ;)
[10:37] <lapo> troy_s: yeah, digital but too few "details"
[10:37] <lapo> troy_s: sacd or dvd-a are another thing
[10:37] <TheSheep> I sometimes think what Mozart of Bach would think of the modern music
[10:37] <troy_s> Play back say, the ABC theme and you will probably find a visceral response to the audience that has heard it before despite vinyl, digital, guitar, piano, etc.
[10:37] <troy_s> sacd is shit.
[10:38] <lapo> yeah, fscking propreitary format
[10:38] <troy_s> anyways, again, content is generally looming larger than the delivery system
[10:38] <troy_s> in fact, the delivery system, if it is shitty, is also aesthetcially beautiful.
[10:38] <troy_s> Like the tinny 30's music in The Shining
[10:39] <troy_s> or the scratchy world war 2 disks played back on a crappy turntable.
[10:39] <troy_s> all have merits, and all are 'better' given certain circumstance, context, audience.
[10:39] <lapo> sure, anyway I lost the point of the conversation totally :-)
[10:39] <lapo> TheSheep: speaking about LSD, how can you make it? :-)
[10:40] <TheSheep> lapo: google it
[10:40] <troy_s> lapo: Just go buy it.
[10:40] <troy_s> lapo: Its cheap.
[10:40] <TheSheep> lapo: but you don't really need it
[10:40] <troy_s> lapo: Lol.
[10:40] <troy_s> TheSheep: BLASPHEMY
[10:40] <troy_s> lol
[10:40] <lapo> eheh
[10:41] <TheSheep> lapo: everything is in the head, with a little effort and meditation you can get yourself into the same state without any chemicals
[10:41] <troy_s> psilocin, mescalin, and delysergicacid are almost all identical
[10:41] <troy_s> _almost_
[10:41] <TheSheep> lapo: getting out is another thing
[10:41] <troy_s> and arguably, as someone who has done a fair share of all, they have the same impact on your brain.
[10:42] <troy_s> (although again, some people look at the context and somehow think that mushrooms do different things because they grow out of the ground etc.)
[10:42] <troy_s> (silly)
[10:42] <lapo> TheSheep: ok, I'll switch to the stripy theme and meditate
[10:42] <troy_s> lapo: Lol.
[10:42] <TheSheep> lapo: that'd kill you
[10:42] <troy_s> lapo: You might surprise yourself.
[10:42] <troy_s> TheSheep: And that meditation argument is just plain bong.
[10:42] <troy_s> lol
[10:42] <troy_s> TheSheep: Sorry, but many chemists agree that he halucinagens are the most powerful drugs around.
[10:43] <TheSheep> troy_s: of course
[10:43] <troy_s> (ugly 'many chemists' wording i know, but...)
[10:43] <lapo> fsck troy_s, you require a lot of en-it dictionary use! :-)
[10:43] <troy_s> lapo: Have you tried the halucinagen tribe?
[10:43] <troy_s> LOL
[10:43] <TheSheep> troy_s: it takes years of practice and hours of chanting to get yourself into the same state :)
[10:43] <troy_s> lapo: Sorry... they are all I have to work with UNLIKE SOME OF US.
[10:43] <troy_s> lol
[10:43] <lapo> troy_s: nope
[10:43] <troy_s> damn dual speakers.
[10:43] <troy_s> lapo: wow.
[10:43] <troy_s> lapo: I would never state that anyone should do drugs
[10:44] <troy_s> but i would argue that
[10:44] <lapo> troy_s: halucinagen tribe?
[10:44] <troy_s> an entire few artistic movements were built around a halicinagen backbone
[10:44] <lapo> I don't think we have that over here :-)
[10:44] <troy_s> SPELLING SUCKING
[10:44] <troy_s> lapo: tribe?
[10:44] <TheSheep> good morning, I'd like to buy some of that INSPIRATION tablets you sell...
[10:44] <troy_s> lapo: Culture.
[10:44] <troy_s> WOOP
[10:44] <lapo> troy_s: ah, got it :-)
[10:44] <troy_s> TheSheep: Try painting on them!
[10:45] <TheSheep> troy_s: paint them black
[10:45] <lapo> troy_s: I think you was asking if I ever tried some sort of drug, lol
[10:45] <troy_s> lapo: Lord Byron / Shelly and Shelly are exemplary of the Romantics, and they were notorious halucinagen users.
[10:45] <troy_s> lapo: Yes.
[10:45] <TheSheep> troy_s: I'm fucked up enoygh without any chemicals, thank you ;)
[10:45] <lapo> troy_s: yeah yeah, I know the romantics
[10:45] <lapo> eheheh
[10:46] <troy_s> lapo: I was asking if you tried any of the well known 'members of the family'
[10:46] <TheSheep> troy_s: some teenager might be reading it
[10:46] <troy_s> TheSheep: Eek.
[10:46] <TheSheep> troy_s: yo know the wannabegreatartist type...
[10:46] <lapo> troy_s: joints when youger, that's all my drugs experience:-)
[10:46] <TheSheep> besides, it's offtopic on freenode, afaik
[10:46] <troy_s> lapo: I have always found everything except the halucinagens to be a complete waste of time
[10:47] <troy_s> lol
[10:47] <troy_s> TheSheep: Really?
[10:47] <troy_s> wow...
[10:47] <TheSheep> troy_s: yes
[10:47] <lapo> troy_s: I'm colorblind I don't think I'll see all the colors with halucinagens stuff :-)
[10:47] <troy_s> lapo: You might be suprised lol
[10:47] <TheSheep> lapo: that has nothing to do with your physical eyes
[10:48] <troy_s> lapo: To end this before we get klined off freenode -- there is nothing that even comes close to describing the experience.  They are _very_ powerful, and you really get to see what a human mind can do when it loses all the restraints of filtration.
[10:48] <TheSheep> lapo: that'd explain those icons...
[10:48] <troy_s> LOL
[10:48] <troy_s> LOL
[10:48] <troy_s> LOL
[10:48] <troy_s> LOL
[10:48] <lapo> eheh
[10:48] <troy_s> oh feck i almost pissed myself.
[10:48] <troy_s> hey lapo
[10:48] <troy_s> on a serious note
[10:48] <lapo> TheSheep: read the documentation attached
[10:48] <troy_s> i suppose you fall into the 15% of users
[10:48] <troy_s> (which is also subdivided into 'classes')
[10:49] <TheSheep> lapo: ooh, docs! I never noticed them! I love docs!
[10:49] <lapo> 15% of male users, and 0.04% of females
[10:49] <troy_s> would you be able to design a palette that works for people with the same eye acuity as yourself?
[10:49] <troy_s> lapo: Forgive me, but 15% divides up into different classes too yes?
[10:49] <TheSheep> lapo: lovet he todo ;)
[10:49] <lapo> troy_s: yep, protanope, deuteranope, tritanope
[10:50] <nothlit> troy_s: that palette tool you posted also simulates colorblindness lol
[10:50] <lapo> troy_s: and all the variations in the middle
[10:50] <troy_s> nothlit: Yes... the colourscheme tool?
[10:50] <troy_s> nothlit: Its pretty solid that way.
[10:50] <troy_s> colorscheme2
[10:50] <lapo> troy_s: for me every palette is good, the point is that I see some port of the double :-)
[10:50] <lapo> part even
[10:50] <troy_s> some part... but not a whole
[10:51] <TheSheep> bah, I had a nice paper on optimal palettes for web
[10:51] <troy_s> which makes me think that there must be a palette combination that 'maximizes' your tonal range perception.
[10:51] <TheSheep> but they redesigned the site and removed it
[10:51] <troy_s> TheSheep: ColorScheme 2
[10:51] <troy_s> you can download it.
[10:51] <troy_s> TheSheep: It rocks.
[10:51] <troy_s> and it actually uses a mathmatical approach to palette backbone selection
[10:51] <TheSheep> http://www.lighthouse.org <-- they had it here
[10:52] <TheSheep> troy_s: you know this site? http://handprint.com/HP/WCL/wcolor.html
[10:52] <TheSheep> troy_s: some great articles there
[10:52] <TheSheep> troy_s: on the phisiology of color
[10:52] <lapo> troy_s: yes, but it will not ook good
[10:52] <troy_s> pulling that wiki page down -- everyone interested has seen it yes?
[10:52] <TheSheep> aye
[10:52] <troy_s> lapo: Um
[10:53] <troy_s> lapo: I mean good for the audience it is chosen for.
[10:53] <troy_s> lapo: As in, if you perceive the colours differently, i bet they pair up differently from your vantage.
[10:53] <TheSheep> lapo: you just need to keep hititng people with a rubber chiken on top of their skulls until they gree it looks good
[10:53] <nothlit> yup
[10:53] <lapo> troy_s: choose one from light yellow, light green and light orange, choose one from dark blue and dark purple, choose one from deep green and deep brown, you get the idea? :-)
[10:53] <troy_s> So its contrast based or hue?
[10:54] <troy_s> as i don't see the pattern, no
[10:54] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's more complicated, eye doesn't see in RGB
[10:54] <TheSheep> or HSV
[10:54] <lapo> troy_s: it's combination of things you cannot just say hue or saturation
[10:55] <TheSheep> lapo: actually you can measure it
[10:55] <troy_s> TheSheep: Gee thanks.
[10:55] <troy_s> TheSheep: The eye is non linear which makes it a bit tough.
[10:55] <lapo> troy_s: colors with a lot of red and a lot of green in their composition are problematic usually
[10:55] <TheSheep> http://handprint.com/HP/WCL/color3.html#colorimetry
[10:55] <lapo> TheSheep: not really
[10:55] <troy_s> TheSheep: Although with me trying the colorscheme2 generator, i see bugger all differences really lol
[10:56] <lapo> uhm I had an url about colorblindness
[10:57] <lapo> here is it http://colorvisiontesting.com/
[10:57] <lapo> there you can get an idea of what this curse is :-)
[10:57] <troy_s> http://wellstyled.com/tools/colorscheme2/index-en.html
[10:57] <TheSheep> somehow I never had trouble with selecting colors
[10:57] <troy_s> lord...
[10:57] <TheSheep> don't know why
[10:58] <TheSheep> I had my sites tested by colorblind people and they never complained
[10:58] <troy_s> lapo: So you are what percent?
[10:58] <lapo> troy_s: difficult to tell
[10:58] <troy_s> TheSheep: I don't think one should design around colour blind folks... and theoretically
[10:58] <troy_s> TheSheep: If you use PROPER
[10:58] <troy_s> TheSheep: palettes, you alleviate the need to worry as the palettes are mathmatical
[10:58] <lapo> TheSheep: just not fscking color code stuff!! :-)
[10:58] <troy_s> and aside from analogous
[10:59] <troy_s> you are save
[10:59] <troy_s> safe
[10:59] <TheSheep> troy_s: I didn;'t design around them, I just tested it to see if I don't build uneccessary barriers
[10:59] <troy_s> lapo: Color coding should be ok if applied consistently.
[10:59] <troy_s> lapo: Inconsistent sucks ass.
[10:59] <lapo> troy_s: I don't know why I hate colorcoding :-)
[10:59] <troy_s> lapo: And the old 'let's make it xxx because it means yyy' crap
[11:00] <TheSheep> color coding is hard to design consitently anywyas
[11:00] <troy_s> lapo: I think color coding is a critical element to everyone assuming you apply it consistently.
[11:00] <troy_s> TheSheep: Not at all... you pick your color early on and associate it with an action
[11:00] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's totally dependent on culture :)
[11:00] <troy_s> TheSheep: The reset is Pavlovian repeat.
[11:00] <lapo> troy_s: coorcoding alone is a barrier for colorblind people
[11:00] <lapo> troy_s: the only real barrier
[11:00] <troy_s> TheSheep: no.  CODING, not that intuitive color psychology mumbo jumbo.
[11:01] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's still cultural if you want it aestetic at the same time
[11:01] <troy_s> lapo: Well assuming you choose your colors to meet the nature of the eye (whatever colour blindness one suffersfrom)
[11:01] <TheSheep> troy_s: people from north tend to hate saturated colors, for example
[11:01] <troy_s> lapo: One could assume that you can distinguish between the, say, 3 different tones
[11:01] <troy_s> TheSheep: I would assume when you build a palette you are using some degree of culture :)
[11:02] <troy_s> TheSheep: Hence a properly design palette :)
[11:02] <lapo> troy_s: I distinguish a lot of tones, but it's fscking hard, eventually I can disting problematic color but I need to put a lot of concentration and obervation
[11:02] <TheSheep> troy_s: but some elements are more universal than others
[11:02] <TheSheep> troy_s: and colors are totally culture-dependent
[11:02] <lapo> for me it's not just a zap to get colorcoded stuff if even possible
[11:02] <lapo> look at the picture at the end of this page
[11:02] <lapo> http://colorvisiontesting.com/what%20colorblind%20people%20see.htm
[11:03] <lapo> for me those 3 have only slight differences in saturation
[11:04] <troy_s> TheSheep: Ixne on the universay!
[11:04] <TheSheep> hah
[11:04] <troy_s> lapo: Yep.  But that is sort of what I am asking
[11:04] <troy_s> lapo: There must be a 'set' of good colour combinations that exhibit solid contrast between the various elements for you.
[11:04] <TheSheep> troy_s: substance is above the fashins ;)
[11:05] <lapo> troy_s: It's difficult to say which the colors are tho :-)
[11:05] <nothlit> lapo: do one of those simulated pictures look exactly like the 'normal' to you?
[11:05] <troy_s> lapo: Have you played around with a palette and grabbed swatches that work for YOU
[11:05] <lapo> nothlit: nope
[11:05] <troy_s> lapo: Because I would love to see the swatches that work well together.
[11:06] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's different for everyone
[11:06] <lapo> troy_s: I don't play around with palettes, I let others do it, and most importantly I need named colors! :-)
[11:06] <troy_s> TheSheep: Erm... within the classification of color blindness there are pretty well 'zoned' ranges.
[11:06] <troy_s> lapo: Bugger that!  I mean strictly for you.
[11:06] <TheSheep> troy_s: but then you can have some of this and some of this
[11:06] <troy_s> lapo:  I could give a rats ass if it looks like complete rainbow hell to an 'average' sighted person.
[11:07] <troy_s> for example
[11:07] <TheSheep> troy_s: even people who are not colorblind see colors differently
[11:07] <lapo> troy_s: sure, but If i choose color I will probably get a very strange mix
[11:07] <troy_s> lapo: When you think of a trees / grass do you think of the colour us 'normal visioned' people call green?
[11:07] <troy_s> TheSheep: I know!
[11:07] <troy_s> TheSheep: DAMN YOU
[11:07] <troy_s> lol
[11:07] <troy_s> lapo: I don't give a damn about strange
[11:07] <TheSheep> troy_s: :-*
[11:08] <troy_s> lapo: In fact, it is exactly what I was hoping for... as long as it WORKS for the given audience.
[11:08] <troy_s> TheSheep: Hell... my yellow isn't your yellow isn't blah blah WELCOME BACK TO EINSTEIN!
[11:08] <troy_s> lol
[11:08] <lapo> troy_s: nice example, when I was a baby I used to draw the tree with the brown and green in the wrong way :-)
[11:08] <troy_s> Let me state this and get it out of the way:
[11:08] <troy_s> "EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD IS RELATIVE EXCEPT THE SPEED (not color!) OF LIGHT"
[11:08] <TheSheep> troy_s: it may interest you that there is no such thing as violet or pink physically -- they are illusions :)
[11:08] <lapo> troy_s: nope, my yelloe is your yello, but your green is my yellow even :-)
[11:08] <troy_s> lapo: That's _EXACTLY_ my point!
[11:08] <troy_s> lol
[11:08] <troy_s> lol
[11:08] <troy_s> lol
[11:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: so are the grey patches inbetween grids of black.
[11:09] <troy_s> Perception is all that matters to the individual however.
[11:09] <TheSheep> troy_s: but you're not designing for aliens
[11:09] <troy_s> If you steer out of the way to avoid the pink truck and get crushed by the oncoming car, what matters?
[11:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: Yes... humans are aliens.
[11:09] <lapo> troy_s: well if the car is a nice one is a pitty :-)
[11:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: And indeed, what does the US call people from other cultures?
[11:10] <troy_s> TheSheep: Think about it.
[11:10] <TheSheep> troy_s: jumping spiders have 4-chromatic sight :)
[11:10] <troy_s> lapo: Anyways... I might hit you up with a text 'test' and see what you do...
[11:10] <nothlit> omgs thats freaky--with no green or red those swatches look exactly the same http://www.iamcal.com/toys/colors/
[11:10] <troy_s> lapo: I would be interested in seeing if there are patterns.
[11:10] <troy_s> nothlit: This is ... revolutionary to you?
[11:10] <troy_s> lol
[11:10] <lapo> troy_s: ?
[11:10] <troy_s> i need to macro that damn relativity line.
[11:11] <troy_s> lapo: Well just the old what means what to you in terms of colour
[11:11] <troy_s> lapo: If you could somehow avoid falling back on what you have 'learned' through repetition
[11:11] <TheSheep> troy_s: no need, I'm shutting up
[11:11] <troy_s> lapo: It might be interesting to fuckign quash the age old argument about color psychology.
[11:11] <troy_s> TheSheep: BAH... I don't want you to shut up. lol.
[11:11] <troy_s> TheSheep: But you clearly have done your share of LSD in your time.
[11:12] <troy_s> TheSheep: I can spot it a mile away.
[11:12] <troy_s> lol
[11:12] <TheSheep> troy_s: at least in the topic of relitivity :)
[11:12] <lapo> hey guys stop talking about halucenogens or send me sample! :-)
[11:12] <TheSheep> troy_s: never did drugs of any kind
[11:12] <troy_s> TheSheep: I guess what becomes more painfully clear living in a 'global society' is how different folk's perception is.
[11:12] <troy_s> TheSheep: Really?
[11:12] <troy_s> lapo: LOL.
[11:13] <troy_s> What is even more funny is the more 'global' we get the more we insist on the 'RULES' of certain things.
[11:13] <TheSheep> troy_s: my father slept 4 days after one pill of anesthetic -- I don't want to risk it runsi n the family ;)
[11:13] <troy_s> When in fact, the inverse is totally true.
[11:13] <troy_s> EEK
[11:13] <nothlit> troy_s: no--its just scary
[11:13] <troy_s> nothlit: In what respect?
[11:13] <troy_s> nothlit: Maybe that is exactly why people want to simplify
[11:13] <troy_s> nothlit: You could be spot on...
[11:13] <TheSheep> the more communication, the more variety we *discover*
[11:14] <troy_s> I guess into the mix of what is 'the right thing' in any given aesthetic decision, we run into greater walls than just say, context/culture/communication
[11:14] <troy_s> we run into the Apple factor
[11:14] <troy_s> the 'iMCool"
[11:14] <troy_s> and the variant the "iWantToBeCool'
[11:14] <TheSheep> troy_s: geeks are immune
[11:15] <TheSheep> troy_s: at least the asocial aspies
[11:15] <troy_s> which, like it or not, tends to influence aesthetic choices.  Liking things that other people like or think they like.
[11:15] <lapo> TheSheep: lol
[11:15] <nothlit> TheSheep: ---geeks want to attain total geekdom...
[11:15] <lapo> TheSheep: that's way a lot of our softwares looks ugly :-)
[11:15] <TheSheep> and become enlightened
[11:15] <troy_s> (which is probably the root of that evil fecking BLUE brigade in OS land -- "It's soothing", "It creates less strain on the eyes" *sigh*)
[11:15] <nothlit> for them, thats the aspiration of cool
[11:15] <troy_s> lapo: That is more selfishness... creating for the 'me' factor 'at this particular moment'
[11:16] <lapo> troy_s: that blue buse sucks, yeah
[11:16] <TheSheep> nothlit: no, that's the ultimate goal of everythig in the universe :)
[11:16] <nothlit> vista green is soothing :)
[11:16] <troy_s> lapo: Blue is cooked like dinner.  We are supposed to be artists... not fucking 'lets do a remix of blue'
[11:16] <lapo> nothlit: ah was that green? :-)
[11:16] <TheSheep> beige rules!
[11:16] <troy_s> lapo: I can only imagine what a Picasso or Pollock would have to say regarding the 'dark ages of operating systems' we live in.
[11:17] <lapo> troy_s: I tried to persuade the xubuntu guys to go with green and dark gery istead of ight gray and blue but with no success :-)
[11:17] <TheSheep> troy_s: so. many. shapes. droooll
[11:17] <troy_s> And we really are in the dark ages when we have screenshots like osdir.
[11:17] <troy_s> lol
[11:17] <nothlit> troy_s: well developers wanting to follow ui rules don't have the comfortability to stray beyond blue
[11:17] <troy_s> lapo: That is because I believe the 'art director' firmly believes in the HOKEY and COMPLETELY FALSE colour psychology crap
[11:17] <TheSheep> lapo: we are very attached to the 'offciail' color scheme
[11:18] <troy_s> nothlit: Since when does the evolution of human tools have ANYTHING to do with 'staying inside'?
[11:18] <TheSheep> troy_s: oh, he wrote *articles* about his color theory :)
[11:18] <troy_s> nothlit: It works great to pinch off ONE work -- perhaps something like a palette.  Then you move on.
[11:18] <lapo> troy_s: I think that's a fault of our "design by community" (artistical design here) you have to please way too many people so you get the most trite stuff usually
[11:18] <troy_s> TheSheep: Lord.
[11:18] <troy_s> TheSheep: I started off prior to University with a very clear thinking regarding palette theory.
[11:18] <troy_s> TheSheep: Then it was broken.
[11:18] <nothlit> btw, i think brasero is beautiful in its simplicity
[11:18] <troy_s> To quote a zen quote:
[11:18] <TheSheep> troy_s: for example, saturated color are soothing because that's waht dominates on evenings
[11:18] <troy_s> Prior to zen -- men were men and mountains were mountains.
[11:19] <troy_s> During my study of zen -- men were mountains and mountains were men.
[11:19] <lapo> TheSheep: official?
[11:19] <troy_s> After I completed my studies -- men were men and mountains were mountains.
[11:19] <troy_s> It is such an apt description of what happens when you start discussing art and design without any care or attention to ALL of those figures that have come before you.
[11:19] <lapo> I think color teory is crap, anyway having convenctions about color usage is ok
[11:19] <nothlit> TheSheep: evenings? i'd say saturated colors come into play when theres more light involved lol
[11:19] <troy_s> colour theory is not crap -- colour psychology is!
[11:19] <troy_s> lol
[11:20] <nothlit> less light = less colour
[11:20] <lapo> troy_s: yeah, that's what I wanted to mean :-)
[11:20] <troy_s> colour theory is nothing more than the 'blending' of notes. :)
[11:20] <troy_s> lapo: Amen my brother.
[11:20] <nothlit> lapo: don't you dare diss color theory!
[11:20] <lapo> yeah, my poor english got in the way
[11:20] <troy_s> lol
[11:20] <troy_s> lapo: Any chance you would contribute to a community theme?
[11:20] <lapo> nothlit: I couldn't live w/o rgb, believe me :-)
[11:21] <lapo> troy_s: sure if it's tango styled and I have time :-)
[11:21] <troy_s> lapo: You seem to be able to crank out icons at a fast and frenzied pace -- even perhaps moreso if you work on a project that is 'strictly get it out the door'
[11:21] <troy_s> lol
[11:21] <nothlit> lapo: i think in subtractive colors :) :P
[11:21] <troy_s> lapo: You are tangozombied.
[11:21] <troy_s> lol
[11:21] <lapo> nothlit: yeah, subtractive syntesis
[11:21] <troy_s> nothlit: Paper fool.
[11:21] <nothlit> rofl
[11:21] <lapo> troy_s: all the way!
[11:21] <troy_s> nothlit: Additive colour only here thanks.  FILMgeek.
[11:22] <TheSheep> nothlit: that's not *mine* theory :)
[11:22] <troy_s> lapo: How come no one has generated a tango metacity / gtk / wall / etc. yet?
[11:22] <nothlit> there is
[11:22] <lapo> troy_s: you want to tell me that the sum of all colors is white, fool! :-)
[11:22] <nothlit> theres an unofficial tango theme on gnome-look
[11:22] <troy_s> lapo: Unless on paper.
[11:22] <troy_s> lol
[11:22] <nothlit> i think its linked to on tango.freedesktop.org even
[11:22] <troy_s> lapo: Then it is a brown muck
[11:22] <troy_s> lol
[11:23] <lapo> troy_s: with thos we restyled crux and it's kinda tango style (widgets, not the metacity theme)
[11:23] <troy_s> lapo: Actually, there is a cool way to trick that into additive light theory -- put a rainbow around a wheel and spin it at a VERY high speed and you will avoid the pigmentation offshoot brown muck -- you will get the white.
[11:23] <troy_s> lapo: That's too bad... because in my mind an icon's set is solely to work on an aesthetic level
[11:23] <troy_s> lapo: and that means it needs the support case.
[11:23] <troy_s> (as in the rest of the shit)
[11:24] <lapo> troy_s: icons are tools
[11:24] <troy_s> TheSheep: There was also a whole branch of theory that said that black was death
[11:24] <troy_s> TheSheep: Because when shit dies it blackens
[11:24] <troy_s> TheSheep: Then someone went 'oops... what about xxx other culture'
[11:24] <nothlit> lol
[11:24] <lapo> troy_s: I try to do a good looking tool, but it have to do it's work basically
[11:24] <troy_s> TheSheep: Its all rubbish in the end...
[11:24] <nothlit> not over here it isnt
[11:24] <lapo> its
[11:24] <troy_s> nothlit: Exactly.
[11:25] <troy_s> TheSheep: Colour psychology, no matter how fecking much reason it seems to show (which is why people THINK it exists) is completely bunk.
[11:25] <troy_s> I only cite the top down lighting bias when referring to WESTERN art viewer.
[11:25] <troy_s> as it is truly a learned thing for them.
[11:25] <troy_s> but as soon as you pull out of mainstream westernized art, it falls apart.
[11:26] <troy_s> (I seem to remember a study of artworks in the Louvre and the a few other museums that had something ridiculous like 75% top left lighting.)
[11:26] <troy_s> (hence _learned_ westernized art viewers)
[11:27] <lapo> troy_s: leave caravaggio alone! :-)
[11:29] <troy_s> by learned i mean
[11:29] <troy_s> if you grew up watching north american tv or anything
[11:29] <troy_s> not 'educated'
[11:29] <troy_s> bugs bunny uses the bloody compositional elements from westernized art.
[11:29] <troy_s> dare i say that an 8 year old viewer of television has a pretty good idea of 'learned westernized art composition'
[11:31] <lapo> troy_s: fsck, you're too difficult to understand at hald past eleven! :-)
[11:31] <lapo> half even
[11:32] <lapo> anyway I think my english is improoving eh :-)
[11:33] <troy_s> lapo: Its damn good actually
[11:33] <troy_s> i will say it is nice to see this channel discussing some of the loftier artwork notions...
[11:33] <troy_s> as from those lofty things come some very real world byproducts.
[11:33] <lapo> troy_s: not good enough to get your sentences easily, I'd say :-)
[11:34] <troy_s> lapo: That's my crappy sentence work.
[11:34] <TheSheep> beware, anime strikes recently
[11:34] <TheSheep> westernized composition becomes passe
[11:35] <lapo> troy_s: nnaah, you're speak in an erudite way
[11:35] <lapo> TheSheep: it's funny how in japan they try to westernize thier design and how here we do the reverse
[11:36] <TheSheep> lapo: OneBigSoup
[11:36] <lapo> I think at the end we will get in the middle
[11:36] <TheSheep> the world is starting to be divided orthogonally to how it was
[11:36] <lapo> yeah  :-/
[11:36] <TheSheep> into geeks, suits, otakus, atc.
[11:36] <TheSheep> etc
[11:37] <TheSheep> soon we will have hobby wars
[11:38] <TheSheep> people interested in certain thing forming nations
[11:38] <lapo> ahah
[11:38] <troy_s> lapo: There is a cool bit of study done on Japanese westernization of 'sexy'
[11:39] <TheSheep> ugh
[11:39] <troy_s> lapo: And a very cool study on animation villians...
[11:39] <TheSheep> troy_s: gaguro? :/
[11:39] <troy_s> Relating to how for example, Disney tends to make the villians very 'ethnic' with cliche'd archetypal traits.
[11:39] <TheSheep> ganguro, sorry
[11:39] <troy_s> And the 'heroes' are 'westernized'
[11:39] <lapo> boring
[11:40] <TheSheep> troy_s: anime was based on western cartoonsi n the first place
[11:40] <lapo> I think walt disney will not be happy to see how borig their stuff is getting
[11:41] <TheSheep> lapo: you think they'll ever thaw him? ;)
[11:41] <troy_s> lapo: It certainly has zero 'avant garde' elements left...
[11:41] <nothlit> eh-- western animation studios that attempt japanese styles fail horribly in general imo
[11:41] <troy_s> lapo: Considering he really pushed for Fantasia.
[11:41] <troy_s> (which was a rather avant garde project at the time)
[11:42] <troy_s> nothlit: Maybe because they are imitating.  lol.
[11:42] <TheSheep> nothlit: animatrix had some nice attempts
[11:42] <lapo> TheSheep: eheh
[11:42] <troy_s> "You are just a copy of an imitation."
[11:42] <nothlit> but anime, and animation in general actually is based a lot of disney work--the 7
[11:42] <troy_s> What is that very apropos line from Pearl Jam...
[11:42] <troy_s> Uh...
[11:43] <TheSheep> troy_s: Pearl Jam also had some broken anime-like cartoons in their music videos, as I recall :)
[11:43] <troy_s> TheSheep: Erm the Evolution video?
[11:43] <nothlit> i wonder if korean studios will end up getting writing talent and end up doing everything ;)
[11:43] <lapo> take some nice animation mix it with catholic moral, remove elements which can get even one single person in the world upseat and you'll have disney stuff :-)
[11:43] <troy_s> TheSheep: Bear in mind that they have made a statement by avoiding music videos -- those were almost all done by the studio.
[11:44] <troy_s> lapo: Or UBUNTU!
[11:44] <nothlit> lapo: a lot of children get scared by disney films
[11:44] <troy_s> lol
[11:44] <troy_s> In relation to the 'make sure you do something that won't please anyone but offends as few folks as possible'.
[11:44] <TheSheep> troy_s: there is the Christian Edition...
[11:44] <lapo> troy_s: uhm, not really, the brown and orange are bold and avantgarde (hence a bit poo like) :-)
[11:44] <troy_s> TheSheep: Woop.  I'm applying for art director right now...
[11:44] <troy_s> lapo: Only in execution.  And the brown is only different.
[11:45] <nothlit> lapo: orange as a warm and sun theme have been done quite a bit
[11:45] <troy_s> lapo: The brown is different for difference sake -- a shitty reason behind a palette.
[11:45] <lapo> troy_s: yeah, but it's different at least
[11:45] <TheSheep> oransun is very nice, especially with green background :)
[11:45] <troy_s> The orange is the byproduct of a fuckign botched design process.
[11:45] <nothlit> brown can do many things--i don't get the big association with waste
[11:45] <lapo> troy_s: it's against the blueosness
[11:45] <lapo> what an ugly neologism
[11:45] <troy_s> No palette.  Icons by xxx, wall by yyy, no cohesive design strategy == right where Ubuntu is now.
[11:45] <TheSheep> troy_s: the end result is what counts :)
[11:45] <lapo> troy_s: that's the problem
[11:46] <troy_s> lapo: Not against actually -- it was an accident from sepia photos actually.
[11:46] <troy_s> lapo: I know this because I actually asked and got the responsed.
[11:46] <nothlit> i like IconFactory's work for ubuntu though :)
[11:46] <troy_s> response.
[11:46] <lapo> troy_s: solution: tango palette, tango style icons, wallpaper retouched by myself or other tango guys, tango styled widgets and windows decorations! :-)
[11:46] <troy_s> The brown was SOLELY because HeWhoShallRemainNameless wanted sepia toned photos (although probably very realistically not having a clue about the term 'sepia')
[11:46] <troy_s> lapo: Ugh.
[11:47] <troy_s> lapo: I couldn't think of a more aesthetically bankrupt path than where they are now :)
[11:47] <TheSheep> tentacle porn!
[11:47] <troy_s> lol
[11:47] <lapo> eheh
[11:47] <nothlit> lapo: wth- tango is not something with any defined character...
[11:47] <lapo> nothlit: I can do a tango style theme with all the character you want :-)
[11:48] <troy_s> agree.
[11:48] <lapo> nothlit: tango style is a tool
[11:48] <nothlit> exactly
[11:48] <TheSheep> hmm... I could do some theme based on Giger for Ubuntu release dubbed Cthulu Fthagn
[11:48] <troy_s> lapo: And that is probably its shortcoming.
[11:48] <troy_s> Woo
[11:48] <troy_s> TheSheep: That would be sleek
[11:48] <troy_s> TheSheep: In a sky black polished rounded case.
[11:48] <nothlit> its a set of guidelines and a selection of not overdone colors to establish a consistent interface workable in a variety of environments
[11:48] <troy_s> with a tiny spackle of red in some obtuse corner.
[11:48] <lapo> troy_s: probably, but we need these tools to have some sort of coherence in oss software jungle
[11:48] <nothlit> not anything else :P
[11:48] <TheSheep> troy_s: I don't actually like giger as a theme, too disturbing to concentrate on the work :P
[11:49] <troy_s> lapo: Make no mistake -- I think tango is the first project to actually TRY and address the issues.
[11:49] <troy_s> lapo: And for that, it has extreme merit.
[11:49] <TheSheep> troy_s: how about oxygen? (or whaddaya call them)
[11:49] <troy_s> TheSheep: I would suggest you need a Giger 'styled' wallpaper -- his bits are a tad busy and contrasty probably for standard walls.
[11:50] <troy_s> TheSheep: Oxygen is the most aesthetically bankrupt set of shit that I have seen.
[11:50] <troy_s> It works perfectly for KDE -- of the same lineage.
[11:50] <TheSheep> troy_s: my main problem with giger is that the proportions and curves he uses have strong sexual flavour to me :/
[11:51] <troy_s> TheSheep: Gee -- you don't say?
[11:51] <troy_s> TheSheep: How astute!
[11:51] <troy_s> TheSheep: Lol.
[11:51] <TheSheep> lol
[11:51] <troy_s> TheSheep: Ever read lovecraft?
[11:51] <troy_s> TheSheep: Lol.
[11:51] <TheSheep> troy_s: sure, but lovecraft is not indecent :)
[11:51] <TheSheep> troy_s: kind of innocent, actually
[11:52] <troy_s> TheSheep: It is actually exactly why Giger's stuff is a tad past 'contemporary pop'
[11:53] <TheSheep> troy_s: I wonder if it would have sexual flavour also for different cultures?
[11:53] <troy_s> TheSheep: My guess is a stern no.
[11:53] <troy_s> TheSheep: As that sexuality thing is culture centric (gee -- there is a shocker)
[11:54] <TheSheep> troy_s: well, *parts* are instinct...
[11:55] <TheSheep> reminds me of these birds, of the same species but different regions, that couldn't understand their songs
[11:56] <TheSheep> then again, some immersion and bah! you enjoy oriental art
[11:56] <troy_s> well yeah
[11:56] <troy_s> as soon as your force the context upon yourself, you get understanding
[11:56] <troy_s> which is why when someone looks to say, historical art work, it is very difficult to get the point...
[11:56] <troy_s> take Warhol for example
[11:56] <troy_s> everyone sees the soup can
[11:57] <troy_s> without seeing the context of 'art as being highbrow gallery' work
[11:57] <troy_s> which he quickly said 'oh yeah?' to.
[11:57] <troy_s> and formed a new movement.
[11:57] <TheSheep> then again, maybe not all oriental art... http://pinkurocks.typepad.com/pinku/2004/05/ganguro.html
[11:58] <TheSheep> never understood Warhol, tbh :)
[12:00] <nothlit> TheSheep: is she trying to make herself look like a powerpuff girl lol?
[12:00] <TheSheep> nothlit: not fun, that was a real fashion in Japan two yers ago
[12:00] <TheSheep> years
[12:00] <TheSheep> nothlit: shows how silly fashions are when viewed from outside
[12:01] <TheSheep> (otoh, it's probably as extreme as our goths)
[12:03] <TheSheep> troy_s: now, let's for a short moment just assume that KDE also has its own aestethics, just you're not familiar with the context?
[12:03] <TheSheep> troy_s: that'd explain why the KDE crowd considers gtk ugly
[12:03] <TheSheep> and apples
[12:04] <lapo> TheSheep: I don't really want to go in gnome vs kde debate since I'm a user of both, bt if gtk is ugly I could say the word keramik :-)
[12:04] <nothlit> both (unthemed)gtk and qt are ugly
[12:05] <troy_s> TheSheep: last time i checked KDE and GNOME were ugly.
[12:05] <TheSheep> nothlit: they were works of art 5 years ago
[12:05] <TheSheep> nothlit: I remember a friend sighing when seeng the first win95 screenshots
[12:05] <TheSheep> troy_s: that's because you come from the mac context
[12:06] <troy_s> TheSheep: Blasphemy
[12:06] <TheSheep> \o.
[12:07] <TheSheep> troy_s: Thank You
[12:07] <troy_s> TheSheep: I don't like apple at all... they place value on design however, and for that reason alone, i grudgingly give them props.
[12:08] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's not like the others don't place value on desgin -- they just come from different axioms
[12:08] <troy_s> TheSheep: True enough.
[12:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: Let me rephrase...
[12:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: Apple puts a good deal of their money into the traditionally educated approaches to art and design.
[12:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: Owing to a vast history of art and design through the ages... :)
[12:09] <TheSheep> the one close to your understanding of it :)
[12:10] <TheSheep> since you deidcated quite a lare part of your life researcing it