TheSheepnow, for the question: how many people are out there equally dedicated to the history of art? and how many of them already are happy with their macs? :)12:11
troy_sTheSheep: Well... I didn't exactly want to.12:11
troy_sTheSheep: I just realized that at some point, if you are dedicated to a craft, you should probably do as those that have followed before you did and get your knocks in.12:11
troy_sTheSheep: I think the folks are happy with their macs.  That said, that comes from a direct relation with the folks who design their macs.12:12
TheSheeponce, when I was very bored, I spend a totally unproductive morning arguing with a windows zaelot about how ugly is windows12:12
troy_sTheSheep: The folks who do the work.12:12
TheSheephe was blind to my arguments :)12:12
troy_sTheSheep: Yep...  its just like arguing art.12:12
troy_sTheSheep: I would like to think however, that Ubuntu art and design could theoretically ride on the bloody tidal wave of growth and form a sort of synergy12:13
TheSheepthen again, if we aim at a certain population, we maybe shouldn't really go all high art and aesthetics? :)12:13
troy_screating the 'PLEASE MAKE WINDOWS LOOK LIKE UBUNTU' screams as opposed to 'make windows look like mac'12:13
troy_sTheSheep: I don't think high art has anything to do with it.  Aesthetics certainly.  Contemporary?  Certainly.12:14
TheSheepmake ubuntu look like my car, tv and bed12:14
troy_sTheSheep: In a perfect design world, I think we would look back on Ubuntu say, 5 years from now with this 'fictional design' and go -- god what were we thinking?12:14
troy_sTHAT, for me, is the ultimate test of contemporary design.12:14
troy_sIf it really feels 'dated' for a given pattern, you probably hit the nail on the head.12:15
troy_sGood art and design is like food.12:15
troy_sA twinkie can sit on a shelf for 16 years and still taste like a twinkie.12:15
troy_sRalph Feenies cooking tastes good for about 5 minutes from prep, and starts to spoil thereafter.12:15
lapothere was a theme proposed for edgy which was quite brilliant, we could get some inspiration from it12:16
TheSheeptroy_s: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots12:16
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troy_sTheSheep: What am i looking at?12:18
TheSheeptroy_s: screenshots of various old guis12:19
troy_sTHAT is where we need to GO12:19
TheSheeptroy_s: actually, system 4 seems to have much cleaner interface than macosx12:19
troy_sTheSheep: System4?12:21
TheSheepexcept for some vintage vocabulary: note "insertion point" instead of "cursor"12:21
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TheSheeptroy_s: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/macos4212:21
troy_sYeah a little uh... pedantic12:22
troy_sNot that i mean 3d ... but ... square.12:22
TheSheepwhat can I say, I'm geek too ;)12:22
TheSheepbut clean and cruft-free12:23
TheSheepexcept for a lot of unnecessary lines12:23
TheSheepthe thick 3d frames are really passe now, but they were sooo coool back then12:26
TheSheepbeos always had the nicest icons12:26
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troy_swell that was fun12:28
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TheSheephow much did I miss?12:28
nothlittroy netsplit too--nothing12:28
troy_ssuper neat12:29
TheSheepbeos had a lot of work put into user interface12:31
nothlitbeos is still alive lol -> haiku12:31
troy_sTheSheep: Link for be shot from that page?12:31
TheSheeptroy_s: you won't like it :) http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/full/beos5.png12:32
TheSheeptroy_s: win95 took a lot from it12:34
troy_sit is just an era really ...12:34
troy_snot much to like or dislike12:34
TheSheepI think that with this resolution and number of colors, they made several miracles12:35
TheSheep16 colors, for gawd's sake12:35
troy_sTheSheep: more colours has less impact12:39
troy_sTheSheep: That's the whole bloody point of a palette12:40
troy_sFor example:12:40
TheSheeptroy_s: that's why beos looked so great with a custom palette, not the default vga one that takes colors from all the color wheel12:40
troy_stalk about a dated design12:41
troy_slol lol lol12:41
troy_sby the time that thing is released it will be following trends that are ala windows 3.112:41
troy_sor at least look that way12:41
=== TheSheep shrugs
TheSheeptroy_s: I think that back to system4 is the way to go12:42
TheSheeptroy_s: of course, with current technology12:42
TheSheeptroy_s: rounded corners, gradients, etc.12:43
TheSheeptroy_s: noticed that tere is still no proliferation of gradients in ui design?12:43
TheSheeptroy_s: it starts in www a little12:43
TheSheepespecially "web 2.0"12:43
troy_sIts official 2.0 is dead12:44
TheSheepit was a zombie from the start12:44
TheSheeptroy_s: looking at the author's photos and sites, I don't put much hope into that plasma project12:47
troy_snow thats funnyshit12:47
TheSheepat least they do something12:48
TheSheepI really regret that displays are gotting so hi-res12:48
TheSheeppixel art is dying12:48
TheSheepnobody creates icons and window decorations pixel-pushing anymore :(12:49
TheSheepgames all use 3d12:49
TheSheeponly cellphones and game boy left12:49
troy_sTheSheep: Shut yer mouth.  I bloody well used to do graphics for games in an era where I had to draw it on graph paper then translate it into a hex table BY HAND.12:49
troy_sTheSheep: I don't regret progress in that respect.12:49
TheSheeptroy_s: I did that too and I miss it12:50
TheSheeptroy_s: somehow, the amount of work you have to put into something to make it work impacts its quality12:50
TheSheepheck, Knight Lore has amazing graphics even today12:51
nothlitTheSheep: we get to be creative in a different way now, nothing wrong with that12:51
troy_sErm... You should still put planning and thinking and work into things even when you have the chainsaw.12:51
TheSheeptroy_s: but that;s not happening12:51
troy_sTheSheep: You can thank all the digital 'artists' out there who put a fecking lens flare on a bevel and poof.12:51
TheSheeptroy_s: people used to re-read their papers 10-20 times when they had to pay for printing them -- now they don't even correct typos on blogs12:52
troy_sTheSheep: If it is any note -- I know at least three high profile art types who throw resumes into the garbage as soon as they spot a canned effect.12:52
troy_sTheSheep: It influenced me so much that I avoid them like the plague... if you want a lens flare, draw it.12:52
TheSheeptroy_s: but that's normal -- you lower the barriers, you let "amateurs" in12:52
troy_sWell just MORE of the stuff to sift thorugh.12:53
=== nothlit wonders how big peoples brush libraries are rofl
troy_seffects... nasty12:53
TheSheepno, because people don't care and the medicore stuff sells as well12:53
troy_sthe best work i have seen come out of the digital world has all been hand crafted shit.12:53
TheSheeptroy_s: that's one advantage of gimp over photoshop -- they have similar features, just you have to make your own precanned effects in gimp12:54
troy_sTheSheep: Unfortunately there are a lot of them12:54
nothlitTheSheep: theres lots of precanning in that comes with gimp12:54
troy_sAside from a blur, you shouldn't be allowed to use anything lol12:54
TheSheeptroy_s: somehow, the sweat that pearmetes a work, shows12:55
TheSheeptroy_s: that's what Pirsing calls Quality12:55
nothliti think things are fine as long as you can't spot pre-canning12:55
TheSheepnothlit: you can always spot it, it's just a question of enough training12:56
TheSheepthat's why I hate 3d animations in cartoons so much12:57
TheSheepthey are sooo jarring12:57
TheSheepand cheap12:57
TheSheepdoing them right takes more work than drawing them by hand12:57
nothlit.. if i used the cloud effect as a base, and complete painted over it. you could spot that?01:02
TheSheepnothlit: depends on how much your work would be over it :)01:03
TheSheepnothlit: but then you could have started with white background as well01:03
nothliti'm just theorising lol01:03
nothliti said completely01:03
TheSheepwell, then it's your work01:04
nothlitanyways, filters are often used as sources for random data to further shape01:04
TheSheepnot automated effect01:04
TheSheepsure, I often useplasma for that01:04
nothlitthats what i meant lol01:04
troy_s<nothlit> i think things are fine as long as you can't spot pre-cannin01:05
troy_sthat's the trick01:05
TheSheepbut you can't make anything meaningful just juggling filters01:05
troy_sif you are using canned shit and you can see it, you aren't using it very well.01:05
TheSheepyou need to paste some whotoso from images.google.com too! ;)01:05
=== TheSheep untangles his fingers
TheSheepwell, thank you guys for the chat, good night01:07
troy_sMUST shower01:07
troy_snothlit: Hit me with that poll stuff and I'll plop it in when I get showered.01:07
TheSheeptroy_s: save some sweat to permeate your works ;)01:07
nothlittroy_s: https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/gutsy/literature/concepts.html --its in there01:28
troy_snothlit: I'll put the poll up now and notify you01:28
troy_snothlit: then you need to post to the ml and the forums01:29
nothlitwe have an art section in the forums?01:29
nothlittroy_s: hmm if have a forums section we could put the poll up there--that way more than just the art team can vote?01:31
troy_snothlit: art and design i think01:32
troy_snothlit: Anyone on lp can vote01:32
troy_serm ... art team i guess.01:32
troy_snothlit: anyways... how long should the vote run for ?01:32
nothlitcan we lose 5 days to do this?01:33
troy_s5 seems long... 3?01:34
troy_sThe problem with the mailing lists is that people who have digests get boned.01:35
troy_sbut ...01:35
nothlitwe can go with 3--i'm just afraid we won't have enough01:36
troy_sthen we go longer01:36
nothlitthe digests aren't a worry imo--those 100 are prolly less interested and less likely to vote anyways01:36
troy_sdo you want to go a week?01:37
troy_sokie... so... how long can you keep interest up for 3 days?01:37
troy_sif so...i'll set that.01:37
nothlitnah thats too long01:37
troy_sit is, after all, an easy thing to do.01:37
troy_s3 would give everyone plenty of time01:37
nothlittroy_s: is http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=16 it? its not more general?01:39
nothliti'll post it there as well if so01:40
troy_snothlit: Just tell the buggers to vote on LP01:41
troy_snothlit: One central area is a 'good thing' lol01:41
nothlitthats more closed though01:42
nothlitthis is one area that the general public <can> definitely contribute in on01:42
nothlitnot so with the palettes and the rest01:42
troy_sYou know what really cracks me up... the guys who insist that Gimp is unusable and yet generate total bong.01:43
troy_swith the commercial tools01:43
troy_snothlit: Sure... we can always add but then you get double the votes...01:43
troy_snothlit: Which is why lp is superior for voting..01:43
troy_snothlit: And the art team is wide open01:43
troy_snothlit: Hell.. its the REASON for the team01:43
nothliti actually find gimp is more usable as a general paint tool (as in brush brush brush--not ms paint) than for regular photoshop stuff01:44
nothlitgap is pretty nice though01:44
troy_snothlit: I am dropping 'building'01:45
troy_snothlit: Not to mention that the multi window works better in current environments.01:45
troy_snothlit: Building is roughly equal to creation01:45
nothlitactually-one great sketching/design tool in terms of usability is Alias Sketchbook Pro01:46
nothlitits pen based01:46
nothlit*nix doesn't have much in terms of pen uis01:47
troy_scan you see that?01:47
troy_snothlit: inkscape is one helluva good sketch tool01:47
nothlitVoting hasn't opened yet01:47
nothlitThe vote will commence in 1 hours01:47
troy_snothlit: The more I use it with a tablet the more I love having the ability to edit my strokes.01:47
troy_si'll paste them01:47
troy_sFor a community theme, we'd like to choose some formative words for the yet untitled project. We hope to design around the words - possibly with a motif as a result - for a central theme. Please be aware that our plan is to forge the the two most voted words into a single concept. After the words are chosen, we hope to vote upon a palette that works to support the motivating words.01:48
nothlitI prefer traditional sketching where theres multiple strokes :)01:48
troy_s    * Choice: The community theme should have choice as a central thematic. (active)01:48
troy_s    * Collaboration: The community theme should have collaboration as a central thematic. (active)01:48
troy_s    * Contribution: The community theme should have contribution as a central thematic. (active)01:48
troy_s    * Creation: The community theme should have creation (non Biblical) as a central thematic. (active)01:48
troy_s    * Friendship: The community theme should have friendship as a central thematic. (active)01:48
troy_s    * Progress: The community theme should have progress as a central thematic. (active)01:48
troy_snothlit: I did... but editing strokes after the fact is pretty darn handy01:48
troy_snothlit: I can honestly say that Inkscape is great for developing such things.01:48
troy_sIf you are happy with that...01:49
nothlitI'd rather erase the unwanted lines/redraw over01:49
troy_syou now have the link01:49
troy_snothlit: I just scrabble craploads and delete them01:49
troy_sthen 'tweak' the ones that are darn close.01:49
nothlitotherwise it feels too stiff for me01:49
troy_sit is pretty effective...01:49
nothlitahh lol01:49
troy_snothlit: Have you tried inkscape with the tablet and tremor?01:49
troy_sit is total 'wow'01:49
nothlitI'm of the school where you draw as many lines as it takes to get it right :)01:49
nothlitIts interesting01:50
troy_snothlit: I generally draw till it is right, but the nice thing is that you _can_ tweak the original lines that you started with.01:50
troy_snothlit: Ok... so thats the poll in place01:50
troy_s1hour till open time01:50
troy_sPost on forums and list.01:50
troy_sand I suppose we see what interest there is.01:50
troy_s3 days01:50
nothlitgreat :D01:50
troy_sso it opens in 1 hour and closes in exactly 7201:51
troy_s(if my math isn't stinking lol)01:51
troy_sok... i must go buy water.01:51
troy_snothlit: Side notes:  It is set up with SECRET VOTING and no SPOILS.01:51
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troy_s(this isn't (or shouldn't) be terribly political.01:51
nothlitI don't drink plain water otherwise :)01:52
troy_snothlit: It is damn hard for me to buy water living in Vancouver.01:52
troy_snothlit: Flood coming potentially.01:52
troy_snothlit: So post away oh fearless one.01:52
troy_sThe forums ARE important01:53
troy_smany people don't yet know about LP, so please post there as well.01:53
nothlittroy_s: i'm trying to find what you suggested to include with my posts01:53
troy_sJust say 'hey a poll...'01:53
troy_skeep it simple01:53
troy_sand just say that we will be trying to generate a palette from it...01:53
troy_s(which is also in the poll question)01:53
troy_sIf anyone starts down the 'why isn't xxx word on there?' i'll squash it01:54
troy_sit takes folks to step up to do the shit01:54
troy_sI suppose at some point it requires addressing...01:55
troy_sthe 'hey let's face it this is for a north american / european styled audience'01:55
troy_sbut until it crops up... perhaps we leave it alone.01:55
troy_snothlit: Also stress that the Forums will be kept abreast of the votes if this thing develops, so they CAN have a say.01:56
troy_snothlit: Okie... I'm off for a bit.  Chunder at you soon.01:57
nothlittroy_s: kk01:57
troy_snothlit: You will also probably want to subscribe to the community thread you start01:58
troy_snothlit: As then you can answer questions / etc.01:58
nothlitrofl, the forums went offline exactly after i posted02:17
troy_sYOUR FAULT02:19
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troy_snothlit: Progress?03:55
troy_syharrow: Get out of your coma and vote.03:55
nothlittroy_s: huh? i posted to the mailing list and forums less than two hours ago03:57
troy_soh good you did the forums?03:57
troy_snothlit: The poll should be open.03:58
nothlittroy_s: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=259456104:00
troy_syou subscribed?04:00
troy_snothlit: Good stuffs.04:12
troy_snothlit: Again, its a game of hot pokers at first.04:12
troy_snothlit: lol.04:12
troy_snothlit: You been watching the implosion?04:13
nothlittroy_s: wow no04:17
troy_snothlit: That might just well be a killer blow.04:18
troy_snothlit: Novell will always be able to hire with the cash infusion, but whether it can garner street cred is another.04:18
troy_snothlit: I wonder how long until jimmac evaluates his cred versus his cash.04:18
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troy_sdarkmatter: I need you06:04
troy_sdarkmatter: What is the pixmap stanza to change the bloody arrows in the toolbar?06:04
troy_sshadow = IN06:04
troy_sworks on all arrows in scrollbar troughs06:04
troy_sbut for some reason06:04
troy_swhen I click on the arrow in the toolbar06:04
troy_sit defaults back to the engines.06:05
troy_sso i am ... lost.06:05
darkmatterhmmm... I cant remember offhand... just a sec... me diggeez around for a theme that handles itproperly06:05
troy_sand i noticed that it appears that some have that overlay file (for example the steppers in the scrollbars) OR you can go about defining the arrows (different look slightly of course)06:06
darkmatterI usually use overlays... gives me more consistant placement of the arrows in widgets06:07
troy_swell i am trying to lay down some broad strokes06:09
troy_s'catch alls'06:09
troy_sas you could bloody knock off a theme for an entire lifetime06:09
darkmattertroy_s, http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/PlatinUm?content=33112  <--- may be ugly but handles toolbar arrows nicely, just take a looksee at the gtkrc06:09
troy_sif you worry about the little bits.06:09
troy_sthere are a few good themes out there06:09
troy_sspherecrystal has some good learning code06:09
troy_sand another -- neutronium06:10
troy_sneutronium's code is cleaner06:10
darkmattertroy_s, yeah... I started rebuilding Glory this morning... and if you use the pixmap engine you could work your way up t a 10mb rc trying to get it right :P06:10
troy_salthough i am going with svg on omst06:11
troy_sin fact, thus far, whole.06:11
troy_sbut the arrows in metacity seem to be better rendered to bloody png first... sadly.06:11
troy_sdarkmatter: So this guy does his stanzas with overlay_files06:12
troy_sfor the arrow06:12
troy_swhich means you could theoretically have TWO layers on every arrow06:12
troy_sthe file06:12
troy_sand the overlay_file06:12
troy_swhich poses some interesting options06:12
troy_sdarkmatter: Ok... got it.06:13
troy_swhat the hell is the arrow in the toolbar??!?!?!06:13
troy_sit appears as a HANDLE in bloody platinum06:14
darkmatterthe look yeah... he just reused the same pixmap methinks06:15
darkmatterhttp://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/52050-1.jpeg <-- very old build... but thats why I like overlays06:15
troy_sdarkmatter: Which is fine, but i need to know what the hell controls that arrow in normal themes06:15
troy_s(normally it is an arrow)06:15
darkmatterthe combo entries and option and combo crap in general were misaligned n looked like shite until I switched to using overlays06:16
troy_sdarkmatter: I need your superior skills working on GTK for me.06:17
troy_sdamn you06:17
troy_sI bloody do.06:17
troy_sThis crap drives me completely bonkers.06:17
darkmatterI'll need toi dig around a bit.. I've dozens of themes installed that I hate.. but each does something right with the widget handling06:18
troy_sI am a bigger picture guy who ends up rebuilding the bloody engine.06:18
darkmatterI just need to find a decent reference06:18
troy_sWhich is not only slow for a guy who has no clue06:18
troy_sbut also pointless when it comes to overall design.06:18
darkmatternever bothered to really tackle the arrows before06:18
troy_sdarkmatter: Damn you.06:18
troy_sdarkmatter: See I am close to entirely liking what you have there... as in I would build off of it.06:19
troy_sdarkmatter: But the problem is that certain elements need to have a 3D / real world element to them06:19
troy_sOne being buttons -- minimalist like mist.06:19
troy_sthe tabs are perfect rounding06:19
troy_sas long as they dont have that hideous trend in clearlooks with the line of colour along the top / edge.06:20
darkmatterI'm still trying to figure out how to skin the pathpare seperately from the toolbar in nautilus.. I've found an engine thaat does it... but the code is a mess and trying to find the references is a pita06:20
troy_si bloody wish you would work on other projects... grr.06:20
darkmatteryeah... the clearlooks tabs suck06:20
troy_sin fact, morning is darn close to what i need as a base from that screenshot.06:21
troy_sthe troughs are pills though for what i require06:21
darkmattertroy_s, I'm working on plenty... problem is I'm extremely picky when it comes to look n feel06:21
troy_sand the buttons needs to be less clearlooks 'flat' and more mist 3d minimal.06:21
darkmatterI'll rebuild something a dozen times over trying to makr a one pix line go bye bye06:22
troy_syeah i know... you have ocd06:22
troy_swhich is why i would love you to extend your wings and just 'pinch the shit off'06:22
troy_sas in perhaps help out on a project that doesn't have your bloody heart and soul wound up in it.06:22
troy_sjust work from a union worker point of view.06:22
darkmatterthat might work06:22
troy_sLord... I would find someone to give you hummers all day.06:23
troy_sSure, it might be a guy with no teeth, but SOMEONE.06:23
troy_sSee you have the ability to get the 'whole' look going.06:23
troy_sWhich is what I need.06:23
darkmatterso... what is this current beasty yer trying to fix??? any screenies?06:24
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troy_sdarkmatter: Wtf is tinz?07:35
nothlittroy_s: how'd you get the grungness on your floral pattern in inkscape?07:35
troy_snothlit: Canned effect ;P07:35
troy_snothlit: Uh... tremor / tablet / and by hand on a more serious note.07:36
troy_snothlit: Union the strokes, difference them from the source strokes.07:36
troy_sThen redo per layer07:36
nothliti always do clipping--nondestructive but not very nice to the computer07:37
troy_snothlit: Actually clips tend to bulk up the time in my experience... but that might have changed.07:39
troy_snothlit: The other problem is that the clips need to be released etc.07:40
troy_snothlit: Actually, come to think of it, every stroke in the wall and gdm base (not on bzr yet) were entirely constructed by hand.07:40
darkmattertroy_s, TiNZ is Not Zen07:40
troy_snot helping me darkmatter07:41
troy_swtf is that?07:41
nothlitwow--are there really 4 pixmap engines? http://live.gnome.org/GnomeArt/Tutorials/GtkEngines07:41
darkmatterit a desktop project I was working on until the "helpers" just. vanished.07:42
darkmatterit was about user experience07:42
darkmatterdesktop consistency07:42
darkmatterfirst class crap07:42
troy_snothlit: Only one really.07:43
troy_sSVG is non existent to the best of my knowledge.07:43
troy_seXperience is... well ... not exactly 'there'07:43
troy_sand crux is... hell i don't know about crux.07:43
troy_sdarkmatter: Can you push your revision of Glory to bzr so that some people can build off of it?07:44
troy_sdarkmatter: As in me.07:44
darkmatterlol... once its ready :P07:44
troy_sWhat percent of the bits are covered07:44
troy_sBugger that07:44
troy_sit will NEVER be ready07:44
troy_sjust pinch it off.07:44
darkmatterno.. I mean the revision... havent set up bzr on this install yet.. dont want to stop gimping atm :P07:45
troy_sdarkmatter: OCD!07:46
nothlitocd ftw07:46
darkmattertroy_s, keep that up and I'll have to pay BHSPitMonkey to spank you with a.... nm07:48
darkmatterask troy_s, he's being naughty *shrug*07:52
=== darkmatter glues halo to head
troy_sdarkmatter: bzr or die.07:52
troy_sdarkmatter: Is glory at 100% in terms of coverage yet?07:52
troy_s(by coverage I mean elements)07:53
troy_sdarkmatter: Do you think you could bzr it for me?07:53
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darkmattertroy_s, think the shadow on the buttons is a bit much? http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=484764319&context=set-72157594488098254&size=o09:49
troy_snot really, although i find the outline a bit deceptive as it is constant09:50
darkmatterhmmmm... ok09:51
troy_sdarkmatter: Know what I mean?  It is almost as though if you are going to 3d them a bit, that the outline needs to be subject to light.09:51
troy_s(again, my guts are against the outlines because they trigger clearlooks response syndrome in me)09:51
darkmatterlol... give me a bit.. all I did was hack up some buttons and change the bg color :P09:52
troy_sdarkmatter: I would also err on the side of top left.09:53
troy_sdarkmatter: The tabs look great.09:53
darkmatterokey dokey... I'll play around a bit with the lighting later.. need to colorshift everything to those mor tangoish hues... and fix the scrollbars09:54
darkmatterthnx :)09:54
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troy_snothlit: Any feedback on the forums?04:48
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TheSheeptroy_s: http://www.paulgraham.com/goodart.html <-- this may be a little more agreeable for you :)05:21
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troy_sTheSheep: That appears fare more thought out.05:31
troy_sTheSheep: Although he still seems to try and dismiss relativism as though he needs to.05:32
troy_sTheSheep: Then goes on to prove it... *sigh*05:32
troy_sTheSheep: Although he is certainly prone to trying the old05:32
troy_sTheSheep: Criminology approach from the dark ages -- fall back on physiology.05:32
troy_sTheSheep: What he fails to consider is that his 'human brains are wired to find faces engaging' is rubbish.05:33
troy_sTheSheep: He seems to avoid several complete art movements ranging from Dadaism to German New Wave to Impressionist...05:33
TheSheeptroy_s: so, you say he lacks experimental material :)05:34
troy_sTheSheep: It is what I keep saying when people bring that crap up -- "If that's the case, it is simple for everyone to follow a procedural approach and deliver absolutely perfect work in everyone's eyes."05:34
troy_sTheSheep: Not exactly... just a little art history would prove how much complete fallacy he is standing on.05:34
troy_sTheSheep: Art isn't stagnant... it has a shelf life largely determined by context and culture.05:35
TheSheeptroy_s: ah, but not everything must be good in the same way05:35
troy_sTheSheep: For example, while you might find Andy Warhol's work wonderful, you are completely missing the context that it was originally intended and delivered.05:35
TheSheepI find it boring and completely stupid :)05:35
TheSheepprobably because of the lack of context ;)05:35
troy_sTheSheep: Leni Riefenstahl's work is completely lost in context etc...05:35
TheSheeptroy_s: music is the same05:36
troy_sTheSheep: The simple act of viewing an object out of context changes its perception.05:36
troy_sTheSheep: Take John Water's when he hung beef and ribs off of that guy's unit in Pink Flamingo's -- it makes it funny.05:36
troy_sTheSheep: I would agree.05:36
troy_sTheSheep: How many folks understand the 'Musical Joke"05:36
TheSheepor whisky :)05:36
troy_sTheSheep: Heck... if we were to be really silly -- if we made up a mock gui with plastic glossy shiny apple gelly things EVERYWHERE05:37
troy_sTheSheep: It would be quite funny to us -- overdone.05:37
troy_sTheSheep: But in 10 years, it is quite possible not many would get the 'joke'05:37
TheSheepVista Fhtagn is funny05:37
troy_sTheSheep: But I think that link you provided has him heading in a 'better' direction...05:37
TheSheeptroy_s: it's much more recent05:38
troy_sTheSheep: For example:  ""What would make the painting more interesting to people?"05:38
troy_sTheSheep: That's a horribly westernized bit of writing.05:38
troy_sTheSheep: What you realize when you study art from that sort of vantage is that we as western folks are HORRIBLY HORRIBLY culture centric.05:39
troy_sTheSheep: So much so that we are deluded into believing that EVERYONE thinks like WE do.05:39
TheSheeptroy_s: Taoists or Zen buddhists also tend to suggest that there is "one goodness"05:40
troy_sTheSheep: And it doesn't take a genius to realize how off base this one is:  "For products of nature that might work. I'd be willing to eat the apple the world's population had voted most delicious"05:40
troy_sTheSheep: Lol... sure after you make your way all the way to the top of zen, whatever that ends up being... ;)05:40
troy_sSomething about nothingness.05:40
troy_sTheSheep: He is obsessed:  "I wrote this essay because I was tired of hearing "taste is subjective" and wanted to kill it once and for all. Anyone who makes things knows intuitively that's not true."05:41
TheSheepzen pervades everyhting, so it's best visible when there is nothing else but it ;)05:41
troy_sTheSheep: Again, total rubbish.05:41
troy_sTheSheep: You can't argue that point and hope that any reader will take you seriously.05:41
TheSheeptroy_s: it's a little different in mathematics or physics05:42
troy_sTheSheep: He is some strange freak that is trying to force some residue agenda he disagreed with in art school or something.05:42
troy_sTheSheep: ABSOLUTELY05:42
troy_sTheSheep: But even then05:43
troy_sTheSheep: We all know05:43
troy_sTheSheep: Everything is relative05:43
troy_sTheSheep: Math too falls apart as soon as you move the vantage05:43
troy_sTheSheep: And try to reconcile it somehow against the other.05:43
TheSheeptroy_s: ho so?05:43
troy_sTheSheep: Well... just look to anything involving calculations below the speed of light.05:43
troy_sTheSheep: Or mix measuring units.05:43
troy_sTheSheep: Etc.05:43
TheSheeptroy_s: that's not math05:44
troy_sTheSheep: Everything in math is relative to the vantage from which it is preached.05:44
troy_sTheSheep: Everything only holds true if you _stay_ within the given paradigm.05:44
troy_sTheSheep: In the end, how fast is the ball moving when A throws it to B on trains?05:44
troy_sTheSheep: Is it moving at all?05:44
troy_sTheSheep: Get my point?05:44
TheSheeptroy_s: no05:44
TheSheeptroy_s: that has nothing to do with math05:44
troy_sTheSheep: Erk!05:44
troy_sTheSheep: That has everything to do with math.05:45
troy_sTheSheep: You are missing the implied audience if you don't see it.05:45
TheSheeptroy_s: the fact you have wrong model desn't mean you have wrong math05:45
troy_sTheSheep: Person A throws ball at 10 kms towards Person B on a train travelling 60 kms.05:45
troy_sTheSheep: How fast is the ball travelling?05:45
TheSheeptroy_s: that's physics, not math05:45
troy_s(Ultimate question ends up being relative to what)05:45
troy_sStill math.05:45
TheSheeptroy_s: and more about perception, again, than physics05:46
troy_sOne plus one = ?05:46
TheSheepno, e^i*pi-1=0 is math05:46
troy_sEven that one depends on what you are talking about -- the vantage / perspective.05:46
TheSheepthe point of math is that you *alwasy* have the perspective well-defined05:46
troy_sIt is one of the reasons that Einstien had such a problem with "Spooky action at a distance" -- he simply was unwilling to reconcile certain attributes to his vantage.05:47
TheSheepof course 1 is relative -- it's just a symbol05:47
TheSheepthe point is that the way the symbols interact is beautiful05:47
TheSheepand it's universally so, you only have to understand the notation05:47
TheSheepbut notation is just a question of language05:48
TheSheepnot math itself05:48
TheSheeptroy_s: you start with completely arbitrary set of axioms, and you discover that certain things are the same no matter what axioms you choose05:49
TheSheeptroy_s: and when I say "completely arbitrary", I *really* mean it05:50
TheSheeptroy_s: you either get something trivial or something that follows certain rules, every time the same rules05:51
troy_sTheSheep: And when you say 'certain rules' that is what I refer to as the 'relative' zone.05:51
troy_sTheSheep: Needless to say, "Great Art" is deadly simple.05:52
TheSheeptroy_s: they are not relative, they are always te same no matter what axioms you pick05:52
TheSheeptroy_s: great math is even more so05:52
troy_sTheSheep: It has everything to do with the context and what it does.  Not what it is so much (although that is _everything_ at the time), but what it achieves.05:52
TheSheeptroy_s: read "Goedel Escher Bach" ;)05:53
troy_sTheSheep: I have.05:53
troy_sTheSheep: Hoffsteader is a bright guy, but he also got a lot wrong.05:54
troy_sTheSheep: As history illustrated.05:54
troy_sTheSheep: Again, it is unavoidable.  If you accept the premise that everything in the world is relative except the speed of light, that means _everything_.05:54
TheSheep"everybody thinks I'm stupid, what's wrong with *them*?"05:54
troy_sTheSheep: Contemporary math illustrates that.05:54
troy_shomer simpson.05:54
troy_sTheSheep: I don't really feel the need to question it -- it appears very much the case.  Hell, the Tao was tapping into that theory 2500 years ago.05:55
troy_sTheSheep: In the end, you either embrace it or run around trying to hit some platonic painting of the perfect tree.05:55
troy_sTheSheep: Its completely silly.05:56
troy_sTheSheep: Art and design has a shelf life.  It can only be extremely effective for a slim timeslice (that might even be shrinking thanks to tech).05:56
TheSheeptroy_s: you have read that story by Tolkien? :)05:56
TheSheeptroy_s: 'Neagel's Tree' or something05:56
troy_sTheSheep: And that is assuming that it _is_ effective (which it could very well NOT be, especially if you are trying to hit the Platonic ideal of a tree ;) )05:57
troy_sTheSheep: Or waft random ill informed gibberish around like:05:57
troy_sTheSheep: Again, while Mark's comment pretty but unusable seems logical, everyone posting to the bloody blog appears to have missed an implied audience.05:58
troy_sTheSheep: He basically said 'tastes good but tastes bad'05:59
TheSheepskin-deep bauty, lol05:59
troy_sTheSheep: And _no_ one caught him out.05:59
troy_sTheSheep: Because they too haven't really spent time investigating what the hell pretty MEANS or IS.05:59
troy_sTheSheep: The very act of 'being pretty' probably implies that it is 'pretty' on a high level.05:59
troy_sTheSheep: Or was he talking about discreet elements?06:00
troy_sTheSheep: Its just a rubbish comment.06:00
TheSheeptroy_s: you're also slapping pretty decorations on top of an ugly building06:00
TheSheeptroy_s: with these themes06:00
nothlitDoes he think feisty is pretty?06:01
troy_sTheSheep: Also notice that the topic is "Pretty as a Feature" and he can muster up is about three sentences then some completely "what the hell is that about" statements.  Lol.06:01
TheSheeptroy_s: they can't really change the form06:01
troy_sTheSheep: I don't think he knows.06:01
TheSheeptroy_s: I don't think anybody knows06:01
troy_sTheSheep: A focus group would answer that question.06:01
troy_sTheSheep: And the focus group would most certainly, if I were to bet money, not near a high end of scaling measurement.06:02
TheSheeptroy_s: but there is a number of well-established scientific methods for optimizing things that work in a way we don't know06:02
troy_sTheSheep: (Subject to demo of course... but again... you could probably argue that no demo would rate it highly as there is NOTHING there to rate.)06:02
troy_sTheSheep: You know what I will say to that.06:03
troy_sWhat the hell does this mean:  "pure, unadulterated, raw, visceral, lustful, shallow, skin deep beauty."06:03
troy_sDoes it make ANY sense when you change a couple words to say:06:03
troy_s"pure, unadulturated, raw, visceral, lustful, shallow, wonderful food."06:04
troy_sAgain, it shows you the limit to which his ability to engage the concept of design lies.06:05
nothlitthats what happens when people try to oversell06:05
troy_snothlit: I am having a hard time seeing _anything_ of a statement in any of those comments.06:05
troy_sNot to say that I don't like Who's logo -- in fact -- I thought it was the best out of the gate (minus some shitey design direction poked by sab)06:05
nothlittroy_s: theres only been one person on the forums btw--but hes added himself to the wiki list and asked how he can get involved, etc06:06
TheSheepI don't about beauty, but to sell things you always need well-defined audience :)06:07
TheSheepdn't know06:07
TheSheeptroy_s: anyways, these essays give you pretty much good summary of what average mathematician/scientist/computer geek thinks of beauty :)06:09
nothlitTheSheep: nah06:10
nothlitimho most of them think its the last thing to be concerned about, but probably don't realise that it makes an impression upon them06:11
TheSheepnothlit: it fits the ideas of my university firends, at least06:11
nothlitagain, in terms of visuals and not technical beauty06:11
TheSheepnothlit: good engineer always respects beauty and doesn't dismiss it easily06:11
TheSheepnothlit: "technical beauty" translates to visuals06:12
nothlitTheSheep: yes, of a different source06:12
nothlitTheSheep: and no definitely not always06:12
TheSheepnothlit: can you elaborate?06:14
nothlitanyways--one good thing is that sabdfl thinks visuals are important, not just wobbly windows-- even if he disagrees with the community's direction06:14
TheSheepcould it be he talks about "skin-deep beauty" to avoid long and winding rants about the meanng of art that we are doing here? ;)06:16
troy_snothlit: You have some bloody hard words there to visualize by the by06:16
troy_snothlit: I was giving it thought to execution and there are a couple there that make me shudder...06:16
troy_snothlit: Milk the creative pool... lol06:16
nothlitTheSheep: a good engineer respects beauty of course, but of sound structure, ingeniously simple solutions etc, not necessarily visuals (they're not architects)--and things beautiful in that sense--don't always end up looking beautiful in 3d form :P06:16
nothlittroy_s: lol, you could have said something-- i would have had no objections in exchanging a few06:17
troy_sTheSheep: The long and winding rants are actually pretty simple if I were to state them:  1) Art isn't just 'art' on an island.  It exists in context.  It _does_ something.  2) Art has a shelf life -- it can only do something for as long as something is relevant.  This changes dramatically -- making jokes about George W. Bush have a longer shelf life than making jokes about Michael Richards.06:18
troy_snothlit: No way... I was just commenting.06:18
troy_snothlit: Those are words, and if they can't be negotiated, it has nothing to do with the words and everything to do with ability.06:18
troy_sTheSheep: 3) 'Great Art' stands on a platform in a similar vein as 'Great People' -- defining 'characteristics' is completely useless.  One must look beyond the 'individual' to the scope of what they do.06:19
troy_sTheSheep: 4) art and design in computer operating systems must inevitably _QUIT_ looking to 'what the guy next door is doing'06:19
nothlitWouldn't a comprehensive look at the individual encompass that scope?06:20
troy_snothlit: But suggesting that there is a 'common' trait amongst those figures is... well... you can guess.06:20
troy_snothlit: Great individuals, much as "Great Art and Design" -- is a byproduct of circumstance.06:21
nothlitgeneralisations always fit to some degree--traits like strong leadership, and a vision are going to turn out people more likely to make a change06:22
nothlitbut art can be more fluid--but that doesn't mean that their creators haven't dedicated their lives to their art--and evolved greatly etc06:24
nothlitthere are always still patterns06:24
troy_snothlit: One would hope, but that said, one could expect that there have been countless numbers of people with those attributes -- just as when discussing06:24
troy_sart there have been countless people who might be perfect at say -- mimicry06:25
TheSheeptroy_s: there surely was a countless number of genius violonists in the stone age06:25
troy_sTheSheep: Probably that too.06:26
troy_sTheSheep: Again, it really takes a good deal of circumstance.06:26
troy_sTheSheep: Hell... in fact, arguably, "Great art" is all about the Great Individuals behind the pieces.06:26
TheSheepsometimes it's a question of the right people meeting06:26
troy_sIts a strange world... although many view that 'Great Works of Art / Design' are 1/1000000000000 type things...06:27
TheSheepmany great pieces are *responses*06:27
TheSheepin some "artistic argument"06:27
troy_sI would probably suggest that they are inevitable at some point.06:27
troy_sin fact, that's probably the root of every movement that I can think of.06:27
troy_sNO art movement was just 'lets do it for doing its sake' (aside from that "Art for Art's sake" but that too was a reaction/response)06:28
troy_snothlit: It is part of what the design crowd in FOSS needs -- reaction.06:28
troy_snothlit: Not the passive 'mimicry reaction', but the more active -- if this then this.06:28
TheSheepnot all artists did "movements"06:28
troy_sAre you talking bowel?06:29
TheSheepyou're talking about social phenomenon of artists and art society06:29
troy_sTheSheep: No, but most artists of a given era participate in a movement -- post modern, modern, etc.06:29
TheSheepthere are also "lone artists"06:29
troy_sTheSheep: Bah.06:29
troy_sTheSheep: Pollock types?  Even then, they are embraced as a result of contemporary form.06:29
TheSheeparguably, theyir works often start a "movement" later :)06:29
nothlitare you saying they live in an isolated world?--people can mimic movements of the past--otherwise--they're starting their own06:30
troy_sTheSheep: i would still suggest that it is circumstantial to the 'contemporaries'06:30
troy_sTheSheep: Pollack probably isn't much back during the era of Impressionism.06:30
troy_snothlit: And then the nasty mix that pulling influences from the past can have on work.06:31
troy_snothlit: Usually to communicate / state something.06:31
troy_snothlit: The obvious silly ones are often bound to military imagery, etc.06:31
TheSheeptroy_s: that gives you art that requires a lot of context to understand06:31
troy_sTheSheep: Not at all...06:31
troy_sTheSheep: The incredible thing is that06:31
troy_sTheSheep: ALL contemporary viewers at a given era06:31
troy_sTheSheep: Are _very_ well educated -- not necessarily formally trained, and certainly not with the functionality to express reasoning behind pieces or whatever06:32
troy_sTheSheep: But they have the 'learned' knowledge to understand.06:32
troy_sTheSheep: For example, if you look to movies... prior to music videos a jump cut was a huge shocker06:32
troy_sTheSheep: And Goddard 'invented' that form for that very reason.06:32
TheSheeptroy_s: it's a dialog, some lines in a dialog can be understood ripped out of it easily, can stand on their own, but most will change their meaning at best and be completely incomprehensible at worst06:32
troy_sTheSheep: Now, with the 'artistic' music videos hitting mainstream in the mid 90's, it is hard to find a viewer that is 'jarred' by a jump cut -- look to 24 -- they flip the axis ALL the time and no one cares anymore.06:33
troy_sTheSheep: Absolutely.06:33
troy_sTheSheep: Completely agree with you on that point.06:33
TheSheeptroy_s: jump cuts are still a shock to me -- I probably don't watch enough music videos ;)06:33
troy_sTheSheep: The trickiest thing to do however, is to be the 'Goddard' out there -- to have such a fundamental grasp of the medium that you can warp it to express a message in a new form.06:34
TheSheepah, good artists love their medium06:34
troy_sTheSheep: And I would argue that no matter what, that requires a certain dedication to analysis of both your own work and the work of others -- contemporary and historically.06:34
troy_sTheSheep: They play them like instruments.06:34
troy_sTheSheep: At one point Eddie Van Halen said "What if I do hammer ons for a 'solo'?"06:35
troy_sPoof... new form.06:35
troy_sI think the real problem is that the innovative is hidden behind what we already know.06:35
troy_sSo finding a 'contemporary style' is a LOT of hard work actually.06:36
TheSheeptroy_s: but then there is the "industrial art", the "art of everyday things"06:36
troy_sYou need to examine a plethora of different bits and see if you can find some sort of trend between some elements.06:36
troy_sTheSheep: Believe me, you don't get more artsy fartsy than engineering and architectural art.06:36
troy_sTheSheep: Some architects are more artsy farsty than the biggest of 'artsty types' i can think of...06:37
troy_sTheSheep: My good friends father is an architect and he will talk about Goya and you name it in a knee jerk.06:37
TheSheeptroy_s: programmers do that too06:38
TheSheeptroy_s: I'd guess offcie clerks would too, if not the brain damage coaused by their work06:39
TheSheeptroy_s: that's natural06:39
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troy_sdborg: Have you done any more Lua work?07:40
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troy_sdarkmatter: you know about /usr/share/gnome/gnome-panelrc?08:15
troy_sdarkmatter: I finally found the link to how to theme the panel PROPERLY, and it doesn't bloody work on Debian.08:16
troy_sdarkmatter: Registered a bug report.08:16
troy_sdarkmatter: It should.08:16
troy_sdarkmatter: Well it is the only way to get full themeability (like rounded corners etc.)08:20
troy_sdarkmatter: Its bloody frustrating08:21
troy_sdarkmatter: So you don't know of a way to get it working in Debian eh?08:22
darkmatternot off hand... I'd need to know what the turds changed in the code, and I really dont feel like digging through diff files atm08:25
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nothlittroy_s: properly--as in make it fit with the regular background and not look like the menu bar?08:36
troy_snothlit: Yes.08:39
troy_snothlit: as in use the BOX and FLAT_BOX for example in pixmap to change discreet components of it.08:39
troy_sWithout relying on a panel pixmap kludge08:39
troy_s(that won't scale properly, etc.)08:40
troy_snothlit: Basically, without being able to control it's gtkrc components, you can't really integrate it.08:40
troy_snothlit: The only elements you can get from the standard gtkrc are the buttons... the panel itself and the dropshadow etc are all untouchable.08:41
albi_That's not true...08:41
albi_You can set the panel BG easily08:41
albi_I can link you to a theme that does that08:42
troy_salbi_: It is true.08:53
troy_salbi_: They use cheats - full scale pixmaps.08:53
troy_salbi_: That is _not_ the proper way to theme a panel.08:53
troy_salbi_: It should be accessed through the gtkrc file controlling the various discreet elements.08:53
troy_salbi_: Which is the sole intention of the /usr/share/gnome/gnome-panelrc -- if it worked.08:55
albi_What's the point of theming it like that though?08:55
albi_Maybe slightly less ram used...08:55
troy_sUh... if you have ever themed a panel you will quickly see the shortcomings of the cheat approach.08:56
troy_salbi_: It doesn't scale properly, it doesn't let you control the various elements discreetly, etc.08:56
nothlitalbi_: you know where the actual mailing list is now right?09:25
nothlittroy_s: wow--do you have programmers for your interface proposal?09:43
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troy_snothlit: It's mostly python... I have talked to Tonic about doing some coding...11:04
troy_snothlit: If it changes into the '11:04
troy_s'remote control' element, it will probably be prototyped into python11:04
albi_What's this about python?11:30
nothlitalbi_: for a different project: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubun2design/u2Specifications/u2InterfaceProposal11:31
troy_snothlit: I really hope there is some solid effort that bubbles up with the community effort.11:44
albi_The U2 thing seems pretty cool11:47
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