TheSheep | now, for the question: how many people are out there equally dedicated to the history of art? and how many of them already are happy with their macs? :) | 12:11 |
---|---|---|
troy_s | TheSheep: Well... I didn't exactly want to. | 12:11 |
troy_s | TheSheep: I just realized that at some point, if you are dedicated to a craft, you should probably do as those that have followed before you did and get your knocks in. | 12:11 |
troy_s | TheSheep: I think the folks are happy with their macs. That said, that comes from a direct relation with the folks who design their macs. | 12:12 |
TheSheep | once, when I was very bored, I spend a totally unproductive morning arguing with a windows zaelot about how ugly is windows | 12:12 |
troy_s | TheSheep: The folks who do the work. | 12:12 |
TheSheep | he was blind to my arguments :) | 12:12 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Yep... its just like arguing art. | 12:12 |
troy_s | TheSheep: I would like to think however, that Ubuntu art and design could theoretically ride on the bloody tidal wave of growth and form a sort of synergy | 12:13 |
TheSheep | then again, if we aim at a certain population, we maybe shouldn't really go all high art and aesthetics? :) | 12:13 |
troy_s | creating the 'PLEASE MAKE WINDOWS LOOK LIKE UBUNTU' screams as opposed to 'make windows look like mac' | 12:13 |
troy_s | TheSheep: I don't think high art has anything to do with it. Aesthetics certainly. Contemporary? Certainly. | 12:14 |
TheSheep | make ubuntu look like my car, tv and bed | 12:14 |
troy_s | TheSheep: In a perfect design world, I think we would look back on Ubuntu say, 5 years from now with this 'fictional design' and go -- god what were we thinking? | 12:14 |
troy_s | THAT, for me, is the ultimate test of contemporary design. | 12:14 |
troy_s | If it really feels 'dated' for a given pattern, you probably hit the nail on the head. | 12:15 |
troy_s | Good art and design is like food. | 12:15 |
troy_s | A twinkie can sit on a shelf for 16 years and still taste like a twinkie. | 12:15 |
troy_s | Ralph Feenies cooking tastes good for about 5 minutes from prep, and starts to spoil thereafter. | 12:15 |
lapo | there was a theme proposed for edgy which was quite brilliant, we could get some inspiration from it | 12:16 |
TheSheep | troy_s: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots | 12:16 |
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troy_s | TheSheep: What am i looking at? | 12:18 |
TheSheep | troy_s: screenshots of various old guis | 12:19 |
troy_s | http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/riscos12 | 12:19 |
troy_s | THAT is where we need to GO | 12:19 |
troy_s | RETRO | 12:19 |
troy_s | ! | 12:19 |
troy_s | lol | 12:19 |
TheSheep | troy_s: actually, system 4 seems to have much cleaner interface than macosx | 12:19 |
troy_s | TheSheep: System4? | 12:21 |
TheSheep | except for some vintage vocabulary: note "insertion point" instead of "cursor" | 12:21 |
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TheSheep | troy_s: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/macos42 | 12:21 |
troy_s | Yeah a little uh... pedantic | 12:22 |
troy_s | Flat. | 12:22 |
troy_s | Not that i mean 3d ... but ... square. | 12:22 |
TheSheep | what can I say, I'm geek too ;) | 12:22 |
TheSheep | but clean and cruft-free | 12:23 |
TheSheep | except for a lot of unnecessary lines | 12:23 |
TheSheep | the thick 3d frames are really passe now, but they were sooo coool back then | 12:26 |
TheSheep | beos always had the nicest icons | 12:26 |
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lapo | re | 12:28 |
troy_s | well that was fun | 12:28 |
TheSheep | ugh | 12:28 |
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TheSheep | how much did I miss? | 12:28 |
nothlit | troy netsplit too--nothing | 12:28 |
troy_s | super neat | 12:29 |
TheSheep | beos had a lot of work put into user interface | 12:31 |
nothlit | beos is still alive lol -> haiku | 12:31 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Link for be shot from that page? | 12:31 |
TheSheep | troy_s: you won't like it :) http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/full/beos5.png | 12:32 |
TheSheep | troy_s: win95 took a lot from it | 12:34 |
troy_s | it is just an era really ... | 12:34 |
troy_s | not much to like or dislike | 12:34 |
TheSheep | I think that with this resolution and number of colors, they made several miracles | 12:35 |
TheSheep | 16 colors, for gawd's sake | 12:35 |
troy_s | TheSheep: more colours has less impact | 12:39 |
troy_s | ! | 12:39 |
troy_s | TheSheep: That's the whole bloody point of a palette | 12:40 |
TheSheep | yes | 12:40 |
troy_s | For example: | 12:40 |
TheSheep | troy_s: that's why beos looked so great with a custom palette, not the default vga one that takes colors from all the color wheel | 12:40 |
troy_s | LOL | 12:41 |
troy_s | http://plasma.kde.org/ | 12:41 |
troy_s | talk about a dated design | 12:41 |
troy_s | lol lol lol | 12:41 |
troy_s | by the time that thing is released it will be following trends that are ala windows 3.1 | 12:41 |
troy_s | or at least look that way | 12:41 |
=== TheSheep shrugs | ||
TheSheep | troy_s: I think that back to system4 is the way to go | 12:42 |
TheSheep | troy_s: of course, with current technology | 12:42 |
TheSheep | troy_s: rounded corners, gradients, etc. | 12:43 |
TheSheep | troy_s: noticed that tere is still no proliferation of gradients in ui design? | 12:43 |
TheSheep | troy_s: it starts in www a little | 12:43 |
TheSheep | especially "web 2.0" | 12:43 |
troy_s | Its official 2.0 is dead | 12:44 |
troy_s | lol | 12:44 |
TheSheep | it was a zombie from the start | 12:44 |
TheSheep | troy_s: looking at the author's photos and sites, I don't put much hope into that plasma project | 12:47 |
troy_s | LOL | 12:47 |
troy_s | now thats funnyshit | 12:47 |
TheSheep | at least they do something | 12:48 |
TheSheep | I really regret that displays are gotting so hi-res | 12:48 |
TheSheep | pixel art is dying | 12:48 |
TheSheep | nobody creates icons and window decorations pixel-pushing anymore :( | 12:49 |
TheSheep | games all use 3d | 12:49 |
TheSheep | only cellphones and game boy left | 12:49 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Shut yer mouth. I bloody well used to do graphics for games in an era where I had to draw it on graph paper then translate it into a hex table BY HAND. | 12:49 |
troy_s | TheSheep: I don't regret progress in that respect. | 12:49 |
troy_s | lol | 12:49 |
TheSheep | troy_s: I did that too and I miss it | 12:50 |
TheSheep | troy_s: somehow, the amount of work you have to put into something to make it work impacts its quality | 12:50 |
TheSheep | heck, Knight Lore has amazing graphics even today | 12:51 |
nothlit | TheSheep: we get to be creative in a different way now, nothing wrong with that | 12:51 |
troy_s | Erm... You should still put planning and thinking and work into things even when you have the chainsaw. | 12:51 |
TheSheep | troy_s: but that;s not happening | 12:51 |
troy_s | TheSheep: You can thank all the digital 'artists' out there who put a fecking lens flare on a bevel and poof. | 12:51 |
TheSheep | troy_s: people used to re-read their papers 10-20 times when they had to pay for printing them -- now they don't even correct typos on blogs | 12:52 |
troy_s | TheSheep: If it is any note -- I know at least three high profile art types who throw resumes into the garbage as soon as they spot a canned effect. | 12:52 |
troy_s | TheSheep: It influenced me so much that I avoid them like the plague... if you want a lens flare, draw it. | 12:52 |
TheSheep | troy_s: but that's normal -- you lower the barriers, you let "amateurs" in | 12:52 |
troy_s | Well just MORE of the stuff to sift thorugh. | 12:53 |
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troy_s | uck | 12:53 |
troy_s | brushes. | 12:53 |
troy_s | effects... nasty | 12:53 |
TheSheep | no, because people don't care and the medicore stuff sells as well | 12:53 |
troy_s | the best work i have seen come out of the digital world has all been hand crafted shit. | 12:53 |
TheSheep | troy_s: that's one advantage of gimp over photoshop -- they have similar features, just you have to make your own precanned effects in gimp | 12:54 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Unfortunately there are a lot of them | 12:54 |
nothlit | TheSheep: theres lots of precanning in that comes with gimp | 12:54 |
troy_s | Aside from a blur, you shouldn't be allowed to use anything lol | 12:54 |
TheSheep | troy_s: somehow, the sweat that pearmetes a work, shows | 12:55 |
TheSheep | troy_s: that's what Pirsing calls Quality | 12:55 |
nothlit | i think things are fine as long as you can't spot pre-canning | 12:55 |
TheSheep | nothlit: you can always spot it, it's just a question of enough training | 12:56 |
TheSheep | that's why I hate 3d animations in cartoons so much | 12:57 |
TheSheep | they are sooo jarring | 12:57 |
TheSheep | and cheap | 12:57 |
TheSheep | doing them right takes more work than drawing them by hand | 12:57 |
nothlit | .. if i used the cloud effect as a base, and complete painted over it. you could spot that? | 01:02 |
TheSheep | nothlit: depends on how much your work would be over it :) | 01:03 |
TheSheep | nothlit: but then you could have started with white background as well | 01:03 |
nothlit | i'm just theorising lol | 01:03 |
nothlit | i said completely | 01:03 |
TheSheep | well, then it's your work | 01:04 |
nothlit | anyways, filters are often used as sources for random data to further shape | 01:04 |
TheSheep | not automated effect | 01:04 |
TheSheep | sure, I often useplasma for that | 01:04 |
nothlit | thats what i meant lol | 01:04 |
troy_s | <nothlit> i think things are fine as long as you can't spot pre-cannin | 01:05 |
troy_s | that's the trick | 01:05 |
TheSheep | but you can't make anything meaningful just juggling filters | 01:05 |
troy_s | if you are using canned shit and you can see it, you aren't using it very well. | 01:05 |
TheSheep | you need to paste some whotoso from images.google.com too! ;) | 01:05 |
TheSheep | s/whotoso/photos | 01:05 |
TheSheep | :/ | 01:05 |
=== TheSheep untangles his fingers | ||
TheSheep | well, thank you guys for the chat, good night | 01:07 |
troy_s | Ditto. | 01:07 |
troy_s | MUST shower | 01:07 |
troy_s | nothlit: Hit me with that poll stuff and I'll plop it in when I get showered. | 01:07 |
TheSheep | troy_s: save some sweat to permeate your works ;) | 01:07 |
nothlit | troy_s: https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/gutsy/literature/concepts.html --its in there | 01:28 |
troy_s | nothlit: I'll put the poll up now and notify you | 01:28 |
troy_s | nothlit: then you need to post to the ml and the forums | 01:29 |
nothlit | we have an art section in the forums? | 01:29 |
nothlit | troy_s: hmm if have a forums section we could put the poll up there--that way more than just the art team can vote? | 01:31 |
troy_s | nothlit: art and design i think | 01:32 |
troy_s | nothlit: Anyone on lp can vote | 01:32 |
troy_s | erm ... art team i guess. | 01:32 |
troy_s | nothlit: anyways... how long should the vote run for ? | 01:32 |
nothlit | can we lose 5 days to do this? | 01:33 |
troy_s | 5 seems long... 3? | 01:34 |
troy_s | The problem with the mailing lists is that people who have digests get boned. | 01:35 |
troy_s | but ... | 01:35 |
nothlit | we can go with 3--i'm just afraid we won't have enough | 01:36 |
troy_s | then we go longer | 01:36 |
nothlit | the digests aren't a worry imo--those 100 are prolly less interested and less likely to vote anyways | 01:36 |
troy_s | do you want to go a week? | 01:37 |
troy_s | okie... so... how long can you keep interest up for 3 days? | 01:37 |
troy_s | if so...i'll set that. | 01:37 |
nothlit | nah thats too long | 01:37 |
troy_s | it is, after all, an easy thing to do. | 01:37 |
troy_s | vote | 01:37 |
troy_s | so... | 01:37 |
troy_s | 3 would give everyone plenty of time | 01:37 |
nothlit | kk | 01:37 |
troy_s | aight... | 01:38 |
nothlit | troy_s: is http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=16 it? its not more general? | 01:39 |
nothlit | i'll post it there as well if so | 01:40 |
troy_s | nothlit: Just tell the buggers to vote on LP | 01:41 |
troy_s | nothlit: One central area is a 'good thing' lol | 01:41 |
nothlit | thats more closed though | 01:42 |
nothlit | this is one area that the general public <can> definitely contribute in on | 01:42 |
nothlit | not so with the palettes and the rest | 01:42 |
troy_s | You know what really cracks me up... the guys who insist that Gimp is unusable and yet generate total bong. | 01:43 |
troy_s | with the commercial tools | 01:43 |
troy_s | nothlit: Sure... we can always add but then you get double the votes... | 01:43 |
troy_s | nothlit: Which is why lp is superior for voting.. | 01:43 |
troy_s | nothlit: And the art team is wide open | 01:43 |
troy_s | nothlit: Hell.. its the REASON for the team | 01:43 |
nothlit | i actually find gimp is more usable as a general paint tool (as in brush brush brush--not ms paint) than for regular photoshop stuff | 01:44 |
nothlit | gap is pretty nice though | 01:44 |
troy_s | nothlit: I am dropping 'building' | 01:45 |
troy_s | nothlit: Not to mention that the multi window works better in current environments. | 01:45 |
troy_s | nothlit: Building is roughly equal to creation | 01:45 |
nothlit | actually-one great sketching/design tool in terms of usability is Alias Sketchbook Pro | 01:46 |
nothlit | its pen based | 01:46 |
nothlit | *nix doesn't have much in terms of pen uis | 01:47 |
troy_s | https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art/+poll/ua-community-theme-poll | 01:47 |
troy_s | can you see that? | 01:47 |
troy_s | nothlit: inkscape is one helluva good sketch tool | 01:47 |
nothlit | Voting hasn't opened yet | 01:47 |
nothlit | The vote will commence in 1 hours | 01:47 |
troy_s | nothlit: The more I use it with a tablet the more I love having the ability to edit my strokes. | 01:47 |
troy_s | hrm... | 01:47 |
troy_s | i'll paste them | 01:47 |
troy_s | For a community theme, we'd like to choose some formative words for the yet untitled project. We hope to design around the words - possibly with a motif as a result - for a central theme. Please be aware that our plan is to forge the the two most voted words into a single concept. After the words are chosen, we hope to vote upon a palette that works to support the motivating words. | 01:48 |
nothlit | I prefer traditional sketching where theres multiple strokes :) | 01:48 |
troy_s | * Choice: The community theme should have choice as a central thematic. (active) | 01:48 |
troy_s | * Collaboration: The community theme should have collaboration as a central thematic. (active) | 01:48 |
troy_s | * Contribution: The community theme should have contribution as a central thematic. (active) | 01:48 |
troy_s | * Creation: The community theme should have creation (non Biblical) as a central thematic. (active) | 01:48 |
troy_s | * Friendship: The community theme should have friendship as a central thematic. (active) | 01:48 |
troy_s | * Progress: The community theme should have progress as a central thematic. (active) | 01:48 |
troy_s | nothlit: I did... but editing strokes after the fact is pretty darn handy | 01:48 |
troy_s | lol | 01:48 |
troy_s | nothlit: I can honestly say that Inkscape is great for developing such things. | 01:48 |
troy_s | If you are happy with that... | 01:49 |
nothlit | I'd rather erase the unwanted lines/redraw over | 01:49 |
troy_s | you now have the link | 01:49 |
troy_s | lol | 01:49 |
troy_s | nothlit: I just scrabble craploads and delete them | 01:49 |
troy_s | then 'tweak' the ones that are darn close. | 01:49 |
nothlit | otherwise it feels too stiff for me | 01:49 |
troy_s | it is pretty effective... | 01:49 |
nothlit | ahh lol | 01:49 |
troy_s | nothlit: Have you tried inkscape with the tablet and tremor? | 01:49 |
troy_s | it is total 'wow' | 01:49 |
nothlit | I'm of the school where you draw as many lines as it takes to get it right :) | 01:49 |
nothlit | Its interesting | 01:50 |
troy_s | nothlit: I generally draw till it is right, but the nice thing is that you _can_ tweak the original lines that you started with. | 01:50 |
troy_s | nothlit: Ok... so thats the poll in place | 01:50 |
troy_s | 1hour till open time | 01:50 |
troy_s | Post on forums and list. | 01:50 |
troy_s | and I suppose we see what interest there is. | 01:50 |
troy_s | ;) | 01:50 |
troy_s | 3 days | 01:50 |
nothlit | great :D | 01:50 |
troy_s | so it opens in 1 hour and closes in exactly 72 | 01:51 |
troy_s | (if my math isn't stinking lol) | 01:51 |
troy_s | ok... i must go buy water. | 01:51 |
troy_s | (sadly) | 01:51 |
nothlit | lol | 01:51 |
troy_s | nothlit: Side notes: It is set up with SECRET VOTING and no SPOILS. | 01:51 |
=== nothlit thinks safeway water is the tastiest in the world | ||
troy_s | (this isn't (or shouldn't) be terribly political. | 01:51 |
nothlit | I don't drink plain water otherwise :) | 01:52 |
troy_s | nothlit: It is damn hard for me to buy water living in Vancouver. | 01:52 |
troy_s | nothlit: Flood coming potentially. | 01:52 |
troy_s | yay! | 01:52 |
troy_s | nothlit: So post away oh fearless one. | 01:52 |
troy_s | The forums ARE important | 01:53 |
troy_s | many people don't yet know about LP, so please post there as well. | 01:53 |
nothlit | troy_s: i'm trying to find what you suggested to include with my posts | 01:53 |
troy_s | Just say 'hey a poll...' | 01:53 |
troy_s | keep it simple | 01:53 |
troy_s | and just say that we will be trying to generate a palette from it... | 01:53 |
troy_s | (which is also in the poll question) | 01:53 |
nothlit | ahh | 01:53 |
troy_s | If anyone starts down the 'why isn't xxx word on there?' i'll squash it | 01:54 |
troy_s | it takes folks to step up to do the shit | 01:54 |
troy_s | I suppose at some point it requires addressing... | 01:55 |
troy_s | the 'hey let's face it this is for a north american / european styled audience' | 01:55 |
troy_s | but until it crops up... perhaps we leave it alone. | 01:55 |
troy_s | nothlit: Also stress that the Forums will be kept abreast of the votes if this thing develops, so they CAN have a say. | 01:56 |
troy_s | nothlit: Okie... I'm off for a bit. Chunder at you soon. | 01:57 |
nothlit | troy_s: kk | 01:57 |
troy_s | nothlit: You will also probably want to subscribe to the community thread you start | 01:58 |
troy_s | nothlit: As then you can answer questions / etc. | 01:58 |
nothlit | rofl, the forums went offline exactly after i posted | 02:17 |
troy_s | YOUR FAULT | 02:19 |
troy_s | lol | 02:19 |
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troy_s | nothlit: Progress? | 03:55 |
troy_s | yharrow: Get out of your coma and vote. | 03:55 |
nothlit | troy_s: huh? i posted to the mailing list and forums less than two hours ago | 03:57 |
troy_s | oh good you did the forums? | 03:57 |
troy_s | nothlit: The poll should be open. | 03:58 |
nothlit | troy_s: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2594561 | 04:00 |
troy_s | you subscribed? | 04:00 |
nothlit | yeah | 04:00 |
troy_s | nothlit: Good stuffs. | 04:12 |
troy_s | nothlit: Again, its a game of hot pokers at first. | 04:12 |
troy_s | nothlit: lol. | 04:12 |
troy_s | nothlit: You been watching the implosion? | 04:13 |
troy_s | http://rlove.org/log/2007050401.html | 04:13 |
nothlit | troy_s: wow no | 04:17 |
troy_s | nothlit: That might just well be a killer blow. | 04:18 |
troy_s | nothlit: Novell will always be able to hire with the cash infusion, but whether it can garner street cred is another. | 04:18 |
troy_s | nothlit: I wonder how long until jimmac evaluates his cred versus his cash. | 04:18 |
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troy_s | darkmatter: I need you | 06:04 |
darkmatter | ? | 06:04 |
troy_s | darkmatter: What is the pixmap stanza to change the bloody arrows in the toolbar? | 06:04 |
troy_s | shadow = IN | 06:04 |
troy_s | works on all arrows in scrollbar troughs | 06:04 |
troy_s | but for some reason | 06:04 |
troy_s | when I click on the arrow in the toolbar | 06:04 |
troy_s | it defaults back to the engines. | 06:05 |
troy_s | so i am ... lost. | 06:05 |
darkmatter | hmmm... I cant remember offhand... just a sec... me diggeez around for a theme that handles itproperly | 06:05 |
troy_s | and i noticed that it appears that some have that overlay file (for example the steppers in the scrollbars) OR you can go about defining the arrows (different look slightly of course) | 06:06 |
darkmatter | I usually use overlays... gives me more consistant placement of the arrows in widgets | 06:07 |
troy_s | well i am trying to lay down some broad strokes | 06:09 |
troy_s | 'catch alls' | 06:09 |
troy_s | as you could bloody knock off a theme for an entire lifetime | 06:09 |
darkmatter | troy_s, http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/PlatinUm?content=33112 <--- may be ugly but handles toolbar arrows nicely, just take a looksee at the gtkrc | 06:09 |
troy_s | if you worry about the little bits. | 06:09 |
troy_s | there are a few good themes out there | 06:09 |
troy_s | spherecrystal has some good learning code | 06:09 |
troy_s | and another -- neutronium | 06:10 |
troy_s | neutronium's code is cleaner | 06:10 |
darkmatter | troy_s, yeah... I started rebuilding Glory this morning... and if you use the pixmap engine you could work your way up t a 10mb rc trying to get it right :P | 06:10 |
troy_s | yep | 06:11 |
troy_s | although i am going with svg on omst | 06:11 |
troy_s | in fact, thus far, whole. | 06:11 |
darkmatter | cool | 06:11 |
troy_s | but the arrows in metacity seem to be better rendered to bloody png first... sadly. | 06:11 |
troy_s | hrm... | 06:12 |
troy_s | wow... | 06:12 |
troy_s | darkmatter: So this guy does his stanzas with overlay_files | 06:12 |
troy_s | for the arrow | 06:12 |
troy_s | which means you could theoretically have TWO layers on every arrow | 06:12 |
troy_s | the file | 06:12 |
troy_s | and the overlay_file | 06:12 |
troy_s | which poses some interesting options | 06:12 |
darkmatter | yup. | 06:13 |
troy_s | darkmatter: Ok... got it. | 06:13 |
troy_s | what the hell is the arrow in the toolbar??!?!?! | 06:13 |
troy_s | it appears as a HANDLE in bloody platinum | 06:14 |
darkmatter | the look yeah... he just reused the same pixmap methinks | 06:15 |
darkmatter | http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/52050-1.jpeg <-- very old build... but thats why I like overlays | 06:15 |
troy_s | darkmatter: Which is fine, but i need to know what the hell controls that arrow in normal themes | 06:15 |
troy_s | (normally it is an arrow) | 06:15 |
darkmatter | the combo entries and option and combo crap in general were misaligned n looked like shite until I switched to using overlays | 06:16 |
darkmatter | ahhh | 06:16 |
troy_s | darkmatter: I need your superior skills working on GTK for me. | 06:17 |
troy_s | damn you | 06:17 |
darkmatter | lol | 06:17 |
troy_s | I bloody do. | 06:17 |
troy_s | This crap drives me completely bonkers. | 06:17 |
darkmatter | I'll need toi dig around a bit.. I've dozens of themes installed that I hate.. but each does something right with the widget handling | 06:18 |
troy_s | I am a bigger picture guy who ends up rebuilding the bloody engine. | 06:18 |
darkmatter | I just need to find a decent reference | 06:18 |
troy_s | Which is not only slow for a guy who has no clue | 06:18 |
troy_s | but also pointless when it comes to overall design. | 06:18 |
darkmatter | never bothered to really tackle the arrows before | 06:18 |
troy_s | darkmatter: Damn you. | 06:18 |
darkmatter | :P | 06:19 |
troy_s | darkmatter: See I am close to entirely liking what you have there... as in I would build off of it. | 06:19 |
troy_s | darkmatter: But the problem is that certain elements need to have a 3D / real world element to them | 06:19 |
troy_s | One being buttons -- minimalist like mist. | 06:19 |
troy_s | the tabs are perfect rounding | 06:19 |
troy_s | as long as they dont have that hideous trend in clearlooks with the line of colour along the top / edge. | 06:20 |
darkmatter | I'm still trying to figure out how to skin the pathpare seperately from the toolbar in nautilus.. I've found an engine thaat does it... but the code is a mess and trying to find the references is a pita | 06:20 |
troy_s | i bloody wish you would work on other projects... grr. | 06:20 |
darkmatter | yeah... the clearlooks tabs suck | 06:20 |
troy_s | in fact, morning is darn close to what i need as a base from that screenshot. | 06:21 |
troy_s | the troughs are pills though for what i require | 06:21 |
darkmatter | troy_s, I'm working on plenty... problem is I'm extremely picky when it comes to look n feel | 06:21 |
troy_s | and the buttons needs to be less clearlooks 'flat' and more mist 3d minimal. | 06:21 |
darkmatter | I'll rebuild something a dozen times over trying to makr a one pix line go bye bye | 06:22 |
troy_s | yeah i know... you have ocd | 06:22 |
darkmatter | :P | 06:22 |
troy_s | which is why i would love you to extend your wings and just 'pinch the shit off' | 06:22 |
troy_s | as in perhaps help out on a project that doesn't have your bloody heart and soul wound up in it. | 06:22 |
troy_s | just work from a union worker point of view. | 06:22 |
darkmatter | true | 06:22 |
darkmatter | that might work | 06:22 |
troy_s | Lord... I would find someone to give you hummers all day. | 06:23 |
troy_s | Sure, it might be a guy with no teeth, but SOMEONE. | 06:23 |
darkmatter | lol | 06:23 |
troy_s | See you have the ability to get the 'whole' look going. | 06:23 |
troy_s | Which is what I need. | 06:23 |
troy_s | badly | 06:23 |
darkmatter | so... what is this current beasty yer trying to fix??? any screenies? | 06:24 |
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troy_s | darkmatter: Wtf is tinz? | 07:35 |
nothlit | troy_s: how'd you get the grungness on your floral pattern in inkscape? | 07:35 |
troy_s | nothlit: Canned effect ;P | 07:35 |
nothlit | grunge* | 07:35 |
troy_s | nothlit: Uh... tremor / tablet / and by hand on a more serious note. | 07:36 |
nothlit | ahhh | 07:36 |
troy_s | nothlit: Union the strokes, difference them from the source strokes. | 07:36 |
troy_s | Then redo per layer | 07:36 |
nothlit | i always do clipping--nondestructive but not very nice to the computer | 07:37 |
troy_s | nothlit: Actually clips tend to bulk up the time in my experience... but that might have changed. | 07:39 |
troy_s | nothlit: The other problem is that the clips need to be released etc. | 07:40 |
troy_s | nothlit: Actually, come to think of it, every stroke in the wall and gdm base (not on bzr yet) were entirely constructed by hand. | 07:40 |
darkmatter | troy_s, TiNZ is Not Zen | 07:40 |
darkmatter | :P | 07:40 |
troy_s | not helping me darkmatter | 07:41 |
troy_s | wtf is that? | 07:41 |
nothlit | wow--are there really 4 pixmap engines? http://live.gnome.org/GnomeArt/Tutorials/GtkEngines | 07:41 |
darkmatter | it a desktop project I was working on until the "helpers" just. vanished. | 07:42 |
darkmatter | it was about user experience | 07:42 |
darkmatter | desktop consistency | 07:42 |
darkmatter | first class crap | 07:42 |
troy_s | lol | 07:43 |
troy_s | nothlit: Only one really. | 07:43 |
troy_s | SVG is non existent to the best of my knowledge. | 07:43 |
troy_s | eXperience is... well ... not exactly 'there' | 07:43 |
troy_s | and crux is... hell i don't know about crux. | 07:43 |
troy_s | darkmatter: Can you push your revision of Glory to bzr so that some people can build off of it? | 07:44 |
troy_s | darkmatter: As in me. | 07:44 |
darkmatter | lol... once its ready :P | 07:44 |
troy_s | What percent of the bits are covered | 07:44 |
troy_s | Bugger that | 07:44 |
troy_s | it will NEVER be ready | 07:44 |
troy_s | just pinch it off. | 07:44 |
darkmatter | no.. I mean the revision... havent set up bzr on this install yet.. dont want to stop gimping atm :P | 07:45 |
troy_s | christ. | 07:46 |
troy_s | darkmatter: OCD! | 07:46 |
nothlit | ocd ftw | 07:46 |
darkmatter | troy_s, keep that up and I'll have to pay BHSPitMonkey to spank you with a.... nm | 07:48 |
darkmatter | ;O | 07:48 |
troy_s | eek | 07:48 |
BHSPitMonkey | pardon? | 07:51 |
darkmatter | ask troy_s, he's being naughty *shrug* | 07:52 |
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troy_s | darkmatter: bzr or die. | 07:52 |
troy_s | darkmatter: Is glory at 100% in terms of coverage yet? | 07:52 |
darkmatter | close | 07:53 |
troy_s | (by coverage I mean elements) | 07:53 |
troy_s | darkmatter: Do you think you could bzr it for me? | 07:53 |
darkmatter | soooon | 07:55 |
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darkmatter | troy_s, think the shadow on the buttons is a bit much? http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=484764319&context=set-72157594488098254&size=o | 09:49 |
troy_s | not really, although i find the outline a bit deceptive as it is constant | 09:50 |
darkmatter | hmmmm... ok | 09:51 |
troy_s | darkmatter: Know what I mean? It is almost as though if you are going to 3d them a bit, that the outline needs to be subject to light. | 09:51 |
darkmatter | yup | 09:51 |
troy_s | (again, my guts are against the outlines because they trigger clearlooks response syndrome in me) | 09:51 |
troy_s | lol | 09:51 |
darkmatter | lol... give me a bit.. all I did was hack up some buttons and change the bg color :P | 09:52 |
troy_s | darkmatter: I would also err on the side of top left. | 09:53 |
troy_s | darkmatter: The tabs look great. | 09:53 |
darkmatter | okey dokey... I'll play around a bit with the lighting later.. need to colorshift everything to those mor tangoish hues... and fix the scrollbars | 09:54 |
darkmatter | thnx :) | 09:54 |
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troy_s | nothlit: Any feedback on the forums? | 04:48 |
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TheSheep | troy_s: http://www.paulgraham.com/goodart.html <-- this may be a little more agreeable for you :) | 05:21 |
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troy_s | TheSheep: That appears fare more thought out. | 05:31 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Although he still seems to try and dismiss relativism as though he needs to. | 05:32 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Then goes on to prove it... *sigh* | 05:32 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Although he is certainly prone to trying the old | 05:32 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Criminology approach from the dark ages -- fall back on physiology. | 05:32 |
troy_s | TheSheep: What he fails to consider is that his 'human brains are wired to find faces engaging' is rubbish. | 05:33 |
troy_s | TheSheep: He seems to avoid several complete art movements ranging from Dadaism to German New Wave to Impressionist... | 05:33 |
troy_s | Etc. | 05:33 |
TheSheep | troy_s: so, you say he lacks experimental material :) | 05:34 |
troy_s | TheSheep: It is what I keep saying when people bring that crap up -- "If that's the case, it is simple for everyone to follow a procedural approach and deliver absolutely perfect work in everyone's eyes." | 05:34 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Not exactly... just a little art history would prove how much complete fallacy he is standing on. | 05:34 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Art isn't stagnant... it has a shelf life largely determined by context and culture. | 05:35 |
TheSheep | troy_s: ah, but not everything must be good in the same way | 05:35 |
troy_s | TheSheep: For example, while you might find Andy Warhol's work wonderful, you are completely missing the context that it was originally intended and delivered. | 05:35 |
TheSheep | I find it boring and completely stupid :) | 05:35 |
TheSheep | probably because of the lack of context ;) | 05:35 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Leni Riefenstahl's work is completely lost in context etc... | 05:35 |
TheSheep | troy_s: music is the same | 05:36 |
troy_s | TheSheep: The simple act of viewing an object out of context changes its perception. | 05:36 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Take John Water's when he hung beef and ribs off of that guy's unit in Pink Flamingo's -- it makes it funny. | 05:36 |
troy_s | TheSheep: I would agree. | 05:36 |
troy_s | TheSheep: How many folks understand the 'Musical Joke" | 05:36 |
TheSheep | or whisky :) | 05:36 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Heck... if we were to be really silly -- if we made up a mock gui with plastic glossy shiny apple gelly things EVERYWHERE | 05:37 |
troy_s | TheSheep: It would be quite funny to us -- overdone. | 05:37 |
troy_s | TheSheep: But in 10 years, it is quite possible not many would get the 'joke' | 05:37 |
TheSheep | Vista Fhtagn is funny | 05:37 |
troy_s | TheSheep: But I think that link you provided has him heading in a 'better' direction... | 05:37 |
TheSheep | troy_s: it's much more recent | 05:38 |
troy_s | TheSheep: For example: ""What would make the painting more interesting to people?" | 05:38 |
troy_s | TheSheep: That's a horribly westernized bit of writing. | 05:38 |
troy_s | TheSheep: What you realize when you study art from that sort of vantage is that we as western folks are HORRIBLY HORRIBLY culture centric. | 05:39 |
troy_s | TheSheep: So much so that we are deluded into believing that EVERYONE thinks like WE do. | 05:39 |
TheSheep | troy_s: Taoists or Zen buddhists also tend to suggest that there is "one goodness" | 05:40 |
troy_s | TheSheep: And it doesn't take a genius to realize how off base this one is: "For products of nature that might work. I'd be willing to eat the apple the world's population had voted most delicious" | 05:40 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Lol... sure after you make your way all the way to the top of zen, whatever that ends up being... ;) | 05:40 |
troy_s | Something about nothingness. | 05:40 |
TheSheep | argh | 05:40 |
troy_s | TheSheep: He is obsessed: "I wrote this essay because I was tired of hearing "taste is subjective" and wanted to kill it once and for all. Anyone who makes things knows intuitively that's not true." | 05:41 |
TheSheep | zen pervades everyhting, so it's best visible when there is nothing else but it ;) | 05:41 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Again, total rubbish. | 05:41 |
troy_s | TheSheep: You can't argue that point and hope that any reader will take you seriously. | 05:41 |
TheSheep | troy_s: it's a little different in mathematics or physics | 05:42 |
troy_s | TheSheep: He is some strange freak that is trying to force some residue agenda he disagreed with in art school or something. | 05:42 |
troy_s | TheSheep: ABSOLUTELY | 05:42 |
troy_s | TheSheep: But even then | 05:43 |
troy_s | TheSheep: We all know | 05:43 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Everything is relative | 05:43 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Math too falls apart as soon as you move the vantage | 05:43 |
troy_s | TheSheep: And try to reconcile it somehow against the other. | 05:43 |
TheSheep | troy_s: ho so? | 05:43 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Well... just look to anything involving calculations below the speed of light. | 05:43 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Or mix measuring units. | 05:43 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Etc. | 05:43 |
TheSheep | troy_s: that's not math | 05:44 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Everything in math is relative to the vantage from which it is preached. | 05:44 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Everything only holds true if you _stay_ within the given paradigm. | 05:44 |
troy_s | TheSheep: In the end, how fast is the ball moving when A throws it to B on trains? | 05:44 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Is it moving at all? | 05:44 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Get my point? | 05:44 |
TheSheep | troy_s: no | 05:44 |
TheSheep | troy_s: that has nothing to do with math | 05:44 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Erk! | 05:44 |
troy_s | TheSheep: That has everything to do with math. | 05:45 |
troy_s | TheSheep: You are missing the implied audience if you don't see it. | 05:45 |
TheSheep | troy_s: the fact you have wrong model desn't mean you have wrong math | 05:45 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Person A throws ball at 10 kms towards Person B on a train travelling 60 kms. | 05:45 |
troy_s | TheSheep: How fast is the ball travelling? | 05:45 |
TheSheep | troy_s: that's physics, not math | 05:45 |
troy_s | (Ultimate question ends up being relative to what) | 05:45 |
troy_s | Still math. | 05:45 |
TheSheep | troy_s: and more about perception, again, than physics | 05:46 |
troy_s | One plus one = ? | 05:46 |
TheSheep | no, e^i*pi-1=0 is math | 05:46 |
troy_s | Even that one depends on what you are talking about -- the vantage / perspective. | 05:46 |
troy_s | BUT 1 ITSELF IS RELATIVE! | 05:46 |
troy_s | Eek. | 05:46 |
TheSheep | the point of math is that you *alwasy* have the perspective well-defined | 05:46 |
troy_s | It is one of the reasons that Einstien had such a problem with "Spooky action at a distance" -- he simply was unwilling to reconcile certain attributes to his vantage. | 05:47 |
TheSheep | of course 1 is relative -- it's just a symbol | 05:47 |
TheSheep | the point is that the way the symbols interact is beautiful | 05:47 |
TheSheep | and it's universally so, you only have to understand the notation | 05:47 |
TheSheep | but notation is just a question of language | 05:48 |
TheSheep | not math itself | 05:48 |
TheSheep | troy_s: you start with completely arbitrary set of axioms, and you discover that certain things are the same no matter what axioms you choose | 05:49 |
TheSheep | troy_s: and when I say "completely arbitrary", I *really* mean it | 05:50 |
TheSheep | troy_s: you either get something trivial or something that follows certain rules, every time the same rules | 05:51 |
troy_s | TheSheep: And when you say 'certain rules' that is what I refer to as the 'relative' zone. | 05:51 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Needless to say, "Great Art" is deadly simple. | 05:52 |
TheSheep | troy_s: they are not relative, they are always te same no matter what axioms you pick | 05:52 |
TheSheep | troy_s: great math is even more so | 05:52 |
troy_s | TheSheep: It has everything to do with the context and what it does. Not what it is so much (although that is _everything_ at the time), but what it achieves. | 05:52 |
TheSheep | troy_s: read "Goedel Escher Bach" ;) | 05:53 |
troy_s | TheSheep: I have. | 05:53 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Hoffsteader is a bright guy, but he also got a lot wrong. | 05:54 |
troy_s | TheSheep: As history illustrated. | 05:54 |
TheSheep | %) | 05:54 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Again, it is unavoidable. If you accept the premise that everything in the world is relative except the speed of light, that means _everything_. | 05:54 |
TheSheep | "everybody thinks I'm stupid, what's wrong with *them*?" | 05:54 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Contemporary math illustrates that. | 05:54 |
troy_s | Lol | 05:54 |
troy_s | homer simpson. | 05:54 |
troy_s | TheSheep: I don't really feel the need to question it -- it appears very much the case. Hell, the Tao was tapping into that theory 2500 years ago. | 05:55 |
troy_s | TheSheep: In the end, you either embrace it or run around trying to hit some platonic painting of the perfect tree. | 05:55 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Its completely silly. | 05:56 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Art and design has a shelf life. It can only be extremely effective for a slim timeslice (that might even be shrinking thanks to tech). | 05:56 |
TheSheep | troy_s: you have read that story by Tolkien? :) | 05:56 |
TheSheep | troy_s: 'Neagel's Tree' or something | 05:56 |
troy_s | TheSheep: And that is assuming that it _is_ effective (which it could very well NOT be, especially if you are trying to hit the Platonic ideal of a tree ;) ) | 05:57 |
TheSheep | Neagle's | 05:57 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Or waft random ill informed gibberish around like: | 05:57 |
troy_s | http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/63 | 05:57 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Again, while Mark's comment pretty but unusable seems logical, everyone posting to the bloody blog appears to have missed an implied audience. | 05:58 |
troy_s | TheSheep: He basically said 'tastes good but tastes bad' | 05:59 |
TheSheep | skin-deep bauty, lol | 05:59 |
troy_s | TheSheep: And _no_ one caught him out. | 05:59 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Because they too haven't really spent time investigating what the hell pretty MEANS or IS. | 05:59 |
troy_s | TheSheep: The very act of 'being pretty' probably implies that it is 'pretty' on a high level. | 05:59 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Or was he talking about discreet elements? | 06:00 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Its just a rubbish comment. | 06:00 |
TheSheep | troy_s: you're also slapping pretty decorations on top of an ugly building | 06:00 |
TheSheep | troy_s: with these themes | 06:00 |
nothlit | Does he think feisty is pretty? | 06:01 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Also notice that the topic is "Pretty as a Feature" and he can muster up is about three sentences then some completely "what the hell is that about" statements. Lol. | 06:01 |
TheSheep | troy_s: they can't really change the form | 06:01 |
troy_s | TheSheep: I don't think he knows. | 06:01 |
TheSheep | troy_s: I don't think anybody knows | 06:01 |
troy_s | TheSheep: A focus group would answer that question. | 06:01 |
troy_s | TheSheep: And the focus group would most certainly, if I were to bet money, not near a high end of scaling measurement. | 06:02 |
TheSheep | troy_s: but there is a number of well-established scientific methods for optimizing things that work in a way we don't know | 06:02 |
troy_s | TheSheep: (Subject to demo of course... but again... you could probably argue that no demo would rate it highly as there is NOTHING there to rate.) | 06:02 |
troy_s | TheSheep: You know what I will say to that. | 06:03 |
troy_s | LOL | 06:03 |
troy_s | What the hell does this mean: "pure, unadulterated, raw, visceral, lustful, shallow, skin deep beauty." | 06:03 |
troy_s | Does it make ANY sense when you change a couple words to say: | 06:03 |
troy_s | "pure, unadulturated, raw, visceral, lustful, shallow, wonderful food." | 06:04 |
nothlit | ROFL | 06:04 |
troy_s | tripe | 06:04 |
troy_s | Again, it shows you the limit to which his ability to engage the concept of design lies. | 06:05 |
nothlit | thats what happens when people try to oversell | 06:05 |
troy_s | nothlit: I am having a hard time seeing _anything_ of a statement in any of those comments. | 06:05 |
troy_s | Not to say that I don't like Who's logo -- in fact -- I thought it was the best out of the gate (minus some shitey design direction poked by sab) | 06:05 |
nothlit | troy_s: theres only been one person on the forums btw--but hes added himself to the wiki list and asked how he can get involved, etc | 06:06 |
TheSheep | I don't about beauty, but to sell things you always need well-defined audience :) | 06:07 |
TheSheep | dn't know | 06:07 |
TheSheep | troy_s: anyways, these essays give you pretty much good summary of what average mathematician/scientist/computer geek thinks of beauty :) | 06:09 |
nothlit | TheSheep: nah | 06:10 |
nothlit | imho most of them think its the last thing to be concerned about, but probably don't realise that it makes an impression upon them | 06:11 |
TheSheep | nothlit: it fits the ideas of my university firends, at least | 06:11 |
nothlit | again, in terms of visuals and not technical beauty | 06:11 |
TheSheep | nothlit: good engineer always respects beauty and doesn't dismiss it easily | 06:11 |
TheSheep | nothlit: "technical beauty" translates to visuals | 06:12 |
nothlit | TheSheep: yes, of a different source | 06:12 |
nothlit | TheSheep: and no definitely not always | 06:12 |
nothlit | sort* | 06:13 |
TheSheep | nothlit: can you elaborate? | 06:14 |
nothlit | anyways--one good thing is that sabdfl thinks visuals are important, not just wobbly windows-- even if he disagrees with the community's direction | 06:14 |
TheSheep | could it be he talks about "skin-deep beauty" to avoid long and winding rants about the meanng of art that we are doing here? ;) | 06:16 |
troy_s | nothlit: You have some bloody hard words there to visualize by the by | 06:16 |
troy_s | nothlit: I was giving it thought to execution and there are a couple there that make me shudder... | 06:16 |
troy_s | nothlit: Milk the creative pool... lol | 06:16 |
nothlit | TheSheep: a good engineer respects beauty of course, but of sound structure, ingeniously simple solutions etc, not necessarily visuals (they're not architects)--and things beautiful in that sense--don't always end up looking beautiful in 3d form :P | 06:16 |
nothlit | troy_s: lol, you could have said something-- i would have had no objections in exchanging a few | 06:17 |
troy_s | TheSheep: The long and winding rants are actually pretty simple if I were to state them: 1) Art isn't just 'art' on an island. It exists in context. It _does_ something. 2) Art has a shelf life -- it can only do something for as long as something is relevant. This changes dramatically -- making jokes about George W. Bush have a longer shelf life than making jokes about Michael Richards. | 06:18 |
troy_s | nothlit: No way... I was just commenting. | 06:18 |
troy_s | nothlit: Those are words, and if they can't be negotiated, it has nothing to do with the words and everything to do with ability. | 06:18 |
troy_s | TheSheep: 3) 'Great Art' stands on a platform in a similar vein as 'Great People' -- defining 'characteristics' is completely useless. One must look beyond the 'individual' to the scope of what they do. | 06:19 |
troy_s | TheSheep: 4) art and design in computer operating systems must inevitably _QUIT_ looking to 'what the guy next door is doing' | 06:19 |
nothlit | Wouldn't a comprehensive look at the individual encompass that scope? | 06:20 |
troy_s | nothlit: But suggesting that there is a 'common' trait amongst those figures is... well... you can guess. | 06:20 |
troy_s | nothlit: Great individuals, much as "Great Art and Design" -- is a byproduct of circumstance. | 06:21 |
nothlit | generalisations always fit to some degree--traits like strong leadership, and a vision are going to turn out people more likely to make a change | 06:22 |
nothlit | but art can be more fluid--but that doesn't mean that their creators haven't dedicated their lives to their art--and evolved greatly etc | 06:24 |
nothlit | there are always still patterns | 06:24 |
troy_s | nothlit: One would hope, but that said, one could expect that there have been countless numbers of people with those attributes -- just as when discussing | 06:24 |
troy_s | art there have been countless people who might be perfect at say -- mimicry | 06:25 |
TheSheep | troy_s: there surely was a countless number of genius violonists in the stone age | 06:25 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Probably that too. | 06:26 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Again, it really takes a good deal of circumstance. | 06:26 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Hell... in fact, arguably, "Great art" is all about the Great Individuals behind the pieces. | 06:26 |
TheSheep | sometimes it's a question of the right people meeting | 06:26 |
troy_s | Absolutely. | 06:26 |
troy_s | Its a strange world... although many view that 'Great Works of Art / Design' are 1/1000000000000 type things... | 06:27 |
TheSheep | many great pieces are *responses* | 06:27 |
TheSheep | in some "artistic argument" | 06:27 |
troy_s | I would probably suggest that they are inevitable at some point. | 06:27 |
troy_s | absolutely. | 06:27 |
troy_s | in fact, that's probably the root of every movement that I can think of. | 06:27 |
troy_s | NO art movement was just 'lets do it for doing its sake' (aside from that "Art for Art's sake" but that too was a reaction/response) | 06:28 |
troy_s | nothlit: It is part of what the design crowd in FOSS needs -- reaction. | 06:28 |
troy_s | nothlit: Not the passive 'mimicry reaction', but the more active -- if this then this. | 06:28 |
TheSheep | not all artists did "movements" | 06:28 |
troy_s | lol | 06:29 |
troy_s | Are you talking bowel? | 06:29 |
TheSheep | you're talking about social phenomenon of artists and art society | 06:29 |
troy_s | TheSheep: No, but most artists of a given era participate in a movement -- post modern, modern, etc. | 06:29 |
TheSheep | there are also "lone artists" | 06:29 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Bah. | 06:29 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Pollock types? Even then, they are embraced as a result of contemporary form. | 06:29 |
TheSheep | arguably, theyir works often start a "movement" later :) | 06:29 |
nothlit | are you saying they live in an isolated world?--people can mimic movements of the past--otherwise--they're starting their own | 06:30 |
troy_s | TheSheep: i would still suggest that it is circumstantial to the 'contemporaries' | 06:30 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Pollack probably isn't much back during the era of Impressionism. | 06:30 |
troy_s | nothlit: And then the nasty mix that pulling influences from the past can have on work. | 06:31 |
troy_s | nothlit: Usually to communicate / state something. | 06:31 |
troy_s | nothlit: The obvious silly ones are often bound to military imagery, etc. | 06:31 |
TheSheep | troy_s: that gives you art that requires a lot of context to understand | 06:31 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Not at all... | 06:31 |
troy_s | TheSheep: The incredible thing is that | 06:31 |
troy_s | TheSheep: ALL contemporary viewers at a given era | 06:31 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Are _very_ well educated -- not necessarily formally trained, and certainly not with the functionality to express reasoning behind pieces or whatever | 06:32 |
troy_s | TheSheep: But they have the 'learned' knowledge to understand. | 06:32 |
troy_s | TheSheep: For example, if you look to movies... prior to music videos a jump cut was a huge shocker | 06:32 |
troy_s | TheSheep: And Goddard 'invented' that form for that very reason. | 06:32 |
TheSheep | troy_s: it's a dialog, some lines in a dialog can be understood ripped out of it easily, can stand on their own, but most will change their meaning at best and be completely incomprehensible at worst | 06:32 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Now, with the 'artistic' music videos hitting mainstream in the mid 90's, it is hard to find a viewer that is 'jarred' by a jump cut -- look to 24 -- they flip the axis ALL the time and no one cares anymore. | 06:33 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Absolutely. | 06:33 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Completely agree with you on that point. | 06:33 |
TheSheep | troy_s: jump cuts are still a shock to me -- I probably don't watch enough music videos ;) | 06:33 |
troy_s | TheSheep: The trickiest thing to do however, is to be the 'Goddard' out there -- to have such a fundamental grasp of the medium that you can warp it to express a message in a new form. | 06:34 |
TheSheep | ah, good artists love their medium | 06:34 |
troy_s | TheSheep: And I would argue that no matter what, that requires a certain dedication to analysis of both your own work and the work of others -- contemporary and historically. | 06:34 |
troy_s | TheSheep: They play them like instruments. | 06:34 |
troy_s | TheSheep: At one point Eddie Van Halen said "What if I do hammer ons for a 'solo'?" | 06:35 |
troy_s | Poof... new form. | 06:35 |
troy_s | I think the real problem is that the innovative is hidden behind what we already know. | 06:35 |
troy_s | So finding a 'contemporary style' is a LOT of hard work actually. | 06:36 |
TheSheep | troy_s: but then there is the "industrial art", the "art of everyday things" | 06:36 |
troy_s | You need to examine a plethora of different bits and see if you can find some sort of trend between some elements. | 06:36 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Believe me, you don't get more artsy fartsy than engineering and architectural art. | 06:36 |
TheSheep | %) | 06:36 |
troy_s | TheSheep: Some architects are more artsy farsty than the biggest of 'artsty types' i can think of... | 06:37 |
troy_s | TheSheep: My good friends father is an architect and he will talk about Goya and you name it in a knee jerk. | 06:37 |
TheSheep | troy_s: programmers do that too | 06:38 |
TheSheep | troy_s: I'd guess offcie clerks would too, if not the brain damage coaused by their work | 06:39 |
TheSheep | troy_s: that's natural | 06:39 |
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troy_s | dborg: Have you done any more Lua work? | 07:40 |
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troy_s | darkmatter: you know about /usr/share/gnome/gnome-panelrc? | 08:15 |
troy_s | darkmatter: I finally found the link to how to theme the panel PROPERLY, and it doesn't bloody work on Debian. | 08:16 |
darkmatter | yup | 08:16 |
troy_s | darkmatter: Registered a bug report. | 08:16 |
troy_s | darkmatter: It should. | 08:16 |
darkmatter | cool | 08:16 |
troy_s | darkmatter: Well it is the only way to get full themeability (like rounded corners etc.) | 08:20 |
troy_s | darkmatter: Its bloody frustrating | 08:21 |
darkmatter | yup | 08:21 |
troy_s | darkmatter: So you don't know of a way to get it working in Debian eh? | 08:22 |
darkmatter | not off hand... I'd need to know what the turds changed in the code, and I really dont feel like digging through diff files atm | 08:25 |
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nothlit | troy_s: properly--as in make it fit with the regular background and not look like the menu bar? | 08:36 |
troy_s | nothlit: Yes. | 08:39 |
troy_s | nothlit: as in use the BOX and FLAT_BOX for example in pixmap to change discreet components of it. | 08:39 |
troy_s | Without relying on a panel pixmap kludge | 08:39 |
troy_s | (that won't scale properly, etc.) | 08:40 |
troy_s | nothlit: Basically, without being able to control it's gtkrc components, you can't really integrate it. | 08:40 |
troy_s | nothlit: The only elements you can get from the standard gtkrc are the buttons... the panel itself and the dropshadow etc are all untouchable. | 08:41 |
albi_ | That's not true... | 08:41 |
albi_ | You can set the panel BG easily | 08:41 |
albi_ | I can link you to a theme that does that | 08:42 |
troy_s | albi_: It is true. | 08:53 |
troy_s | albi_: They use cheats - full scale pixmaps. | 08:53 |
troy_s | albi_: That is _not_ the proper way to theme a panel. | 08:53 |
troy_s | albi_: It should be accessed through the gtkrc file controlling the various discreet elements. | 08:53 |
troy_s | albi_: Which is the sole intention of the /usr/share/gnome/gnome-panelrc -- if it worked. | 08:55 |
albi_ | What's the point of theming it like that though? | 08:55 |
albi_ | Maybe slightly less ram used... | 08:55 |
troy_s | Uh... if you have ever themed a panel you will quickly see the shortcomings of the cheat approach. | 08:56 |
troy_s | albi_: It doesn't scale properly, it doesn't let you control the various elements discreetly, etc. | 08:56 |
nothlit | albi_: you know where the actual mailing list is now right? | 09:25 |
nothlit | troy_s: wow--do you have programmers for your interface proposal? | 09:43 |
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troy_s | nothlit: It's mostly python... I have talked to Tonic about doing some coding... | 11:04 |
troy_s | nothlit: If it changes into the ' | 11:04 |
troy_s | 'remote control' element, it will probably be prototyped into python | 11:04 |
albi_ | What's this about python? | 11:30 |
nothlit | albi_: for a different project: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubun2design/u2Specifications/u2InterfaceProposal | 11:31 |
troy_s | nothlit: I really hope there is some solid effort that bubbles up with the community effort. | 11:44 |
albi_ | The U2 thing seems pretty cool | 11:47 |
albi_ | brb | 11:51 |
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