[12:11] now, for the question: how many people are out there equally dedicated to the history of art? and how many of them already are happy with their macs? :) [12:11] TheSheep: Well... I didn't exactly want to. [12:11] TheSheep: I just realized that at some point, if you are dedicated to a craft, you should probably do as those that have followed before you did and get your knocks in. [12:12] TheSheep: I think the folks are happy with their macs. That said, that comes from a direct relation with the folks who design their macs. [12:12] once, when I was very bored, I spend a totally unproductive morning arguing with a windows zaelot about how ugly is windows [12:12] TheSheep: The folks who do the work. [12:12] he was blind to my arguments :) [12:12] TheSheep: Yep... its just like arguing art. [12:13] TheSheep: I would like to think however, that Ubuntu art and design could theoretically ride on the bloody tidal wave of growth and form a sort of synergy [12:13] then again, if we aim at a certain population, we maybe shouldn't really go all high art and aesthetics? :) [12:13] creating the 'PLEASE MAKE WINDOWS LOOK LIKE UBUNTU' screams as opposed to 'make windows look like mac' [12:14] TheSheep: I don't think high art has anything to do with it. Aesthetics certainly. Contemporary? Certainly. [12:14] make ubuntu look like my car, tv and bed [12:14] TheSheep: In a perfect design world, I think we would look back on Ubuntu say, 5 years from now with this 'fictional design' and go -- god what were we thinking? [12:14] THAT, for me, is the ultimate test of contemporary design. [12:15] If it really feels 'dated' for a given pattern, you probably hit the nail on the head. [12:15] Good art and design is like food. [12:15] A twinkie can sit on a shelf for 16 years and still taste like a twinkie. [12:15] Ralph Feenies cooking tastes good for about 5 minutes from prep, and starts to spoil thereafter. [12:16] there was a theme proposed for edgy which was quite brilliant, we could get some inspiration from it [12:16] troy_s: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots === artnay [i=artnay@divxfinland.org] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === nothlit [n=nothlit@fluxbuntu/developer/nothlit] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [12:18] TheSheep: What am i looking at? [12:19] troy_s: screenshots of various old guis [12:19] http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/riscos12 [12:19] THAT is where we need to GO [12:19] RETRO [12:19] ! [12:19] lol [12:19] troy_s: actually, system 4 seems to have much cleaner interface than macosx [12:21] TheSheep: System4? [12:21] except for some vintage vocabulary: note "insertion point" instead of "cursor" === Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [12:21] troy_s: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/macos42 [12:22] Yeah a little uh... pedantic [12:22] Flat. [12:22] Not that i mean 3d ... but ... square. [12:22] what can I say, I'm geek too ;) [12:23] but clean and cruft-free [12:23] except for a lot of unnecessary lines [12:26] the thick 3d frames are really passe now, but they were sooo coool back then [12:26] beos always had the nicest icons === TheSheep [i=sheep@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === UbuntuStats [n=IRCStats@213.13.241.134] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === troy_s [n=aphorism@206.116.6.170] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === yharrow [n=sysadmin@h-67-101-252-163.nycmny83.dynamic.covad.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === lapo [n=lapo@82.59.158.75] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === illern [n=illern@83.252.239.167] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [12:28] re [12:28] well that was fun [12:28] ugh === Seveas [n=seveas@83.160.7.26] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [12:28] how much did I miss? [12:28] troy netsplit too--nothing [12:29] super neat [12:31] beos had a lot of work put into user interface [12:31] beos is still alive lol -> haiku [12:31] TheSheep: Link for be shot from that page? [12:32] troy_s: you won't like it :) http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/full/beos5.png [12:34] troy_s: win95 took a lot from it [12:34] it is just an era really ... [12:34] not much to like or dislike [12:35] I think that with this resolution and number of colors, they made several miracles [12:35] 16 colors, for gawd's sake [12:39] TheSheep: more colours has less impact [12:39] ! [12:40] TheSheep: That's the whole bloody point of a palette [12:40] yes [12:40] For example: [12:40] troy_s: that's why beos looked so great with a custom palette, not the default vga one that takes colors from all the color wheel [12:41] LOL [12:41] http://plasma.kde.org/ [12:41] talk about a dated design [12:41] lol lol lol [12:41] by the time that thing is released it will be following trends that are ala windows 3.1 [12:41] or at least look that way === TheSheep shrugs [12:42] troy_s: I think that back to system4 is the way to go [12:42] troy_s: of course, with current technology [12:43] troy_s: rounded corners, gradients, etc. [12:43] troy_s: noticed that tere is still no proliferation of gradients in ui design? [12:43] troy_s: it starts in www a little [12:43] especially "web 2.0" [12:44] Its official 2.0 is dead [12:44] lol [12:44] it was a zombie from the start [12:47] troy_s: looking at the author's photos and sites, I don't put much hope into that plasma project [12:47] LOL [12:47] now thats funnyshit [12:48] at least they do something [12:48] I really regret that displays are gotting so hi-res [12:48] pixel art is dying [12:49] nobody creates icons and window decorations pixel-pushing anymore :( [12:49] games all use 3d [12:49] only cellphones and game boy left [12:49] TheSheep: Shut yer mouth. I bloody well used to do graphics for games in an era where I had to draw it on graph paper then translate it into a hex table BY HAND. [12:49] TheSheep: I don't regret progress in that respect. [12:49] lol [12:50] troy_s: I did that too and I miss it [12:50] troy_s: somehow, the amount of work you have to put into something to make it work impacts its quality [12:51] heck, Knight Lore has amazing graphics even today [12:51] TheSheep: we get to be creative in a different way now, nothing wrong with that [12:51] Erm... You should still put planning and thinking and work into things even when you have the chainsaw. [12:51] troy_s: but that;s not happening [12:51] TheSheep: You can thank all the digital 'artists' out there who put a fecking lens flare on a bevel and poof. [12:52] troy_s: people used to re-read their papers 10-20 times when they had to pay for printing them -- now they don't even correct typos on blogs [12:52] TheSheep: If it is any note -- I know at least three high profile art types who throw resumes into the garbage as soon as they spot a canned effect. [12:52] TheSheep: It influenced me so much that I avoid them like the plague... if you want a lens flare, draw it. [12:52] troy_s: but that's normal -- you lower the barriers, you let "amateurs" in [12:53] Well just MORE of the stuff to sift thorugh. === nothlit wonders how big peoples brush libraries are rofl [12:53] uck [12:53] brushes. [12:53] effects... nasty [12:53] no, because people don't care and the medicore stuff sells as well [12:53] the best work i have seen come out of the digital world has all been hand crafted shit. [12:54] troy_s: that's one advantage of gimp over photoshop -- they have similar features, just you have to make your own precanned effects in gimp [12:54] TheSheep: Unfortunately there are a lot of them [12:54] TheSheep: theres lots of precanning in that comes with gimp [12:54] Aside from a blur, you shouldn't be allowed to use anything lol [12:55] troy_s: somehow, the sweat that pearmetes a work, shows [12:55] troy_s: that's what Pirsing calls Quality [12:55] i think things are fine as long as you can't spot pre-canning [12:56] nothlit: you can always spot it, it's just a question of enough training [12:57] that's why I hate 3d animations in cartoons so much [12:57] they are sooo jarring [12:57] and cheap [12:57] doing them right takes more work than drawing them by hand [01:02] .. if i used the cloud effect as a base, and complete painted over it. you could spot that? [01:03] nothlit: depends on how much your work would be over it :) [01:03] nothlit: but then you could have started with white background as well [01:03] i'm just theorising lol [01:03] i said completely [01:04] well, then it's your work [01:04] anyways, filters are often used as sources for random data to further shape [01:04] not automated effect [01:04] sure, I often useplasma for that [01:04] thats what i meant lol [01:05] i think things are fine as long as you can't spot pre-cannin [01:05] that's the trick [01:05] but you can't make anything meaningful just juggling filters [01:05] if you are using canned shit and you can see it, you aren't using it very well. [01:05] you need to paste some whotoso from images.google.com too! ;) [01:05] s/whotoso/photos [01:05] :/ === TheSheep untangles his fingers [01:07] well, thank you guys for the chat, good night [01:07] Ditto. [01:07] MUST shower [01:07] nothlit: Hit me with that poll stuff and I'll plop it in when I get showered. [01:07] troy_s: save some sweat to permeate your works ;) [01:28] troy_s: https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/gutsy/literature/concepts.html --its in there [01:28] nothlit: I'll put the poll up now and notify you [01:29] nothlit: then you need to post to the ml and the forums [01:29] we have an art section in the forums? [01:31] troy_s: hmm if have a forums section we could put the poll up there--that way more than just the art team can vote? [01:32] nothlit: art and design i think [01:32] nothlit: Anyone on lp can vote [01:32] erm ... art team i guess. [01:32] nothlit: anyways... how long should the vote run for ? [01:33] can we lose 5 days to do this? [01:34] 5 seems long... 3? [01:35] The problem with the mailing lists is that people who have digests get boned. [01:35] but ... [01:36] we can go with 3--i'm just afraid we won't have enough [01:36] then we go longer [01:36] the digests aren't a worry imo--those 100 are prolly less interested and less likely to vote anyways [01:37] do you want to go a week? [01:37] okie... so... how long can you keep interest up for 3 days? [01:37] if so...i'll set that. [01:37] nah thats too long [01:37] it is, after all, an easy thing to do. [01:37] vote [01:37] so... [01:37] 3 would give everyone plenty of time [01:37] kk [01:38] aight... [01:39] troy_s: is http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=16 it? its not more general? [01:40] i'll post it there as well if so [01:41] nothlit: Just tell the buggers to vote on LP [01:41] nothlit: One central area is a 'good thing' lol [01:42] thats more closed though [01:42] this is one area that the general public definitely contribute in on [01:42] not so with the palettes and the rest [01:43] You know what really cracks me up... the guys who insist that Gimp is unusable and yet generate total bong. [01:43] with the commercial tools [01:43] nothlit: Sure... we can always add but then you get double the votes... [01:43] nothlit: Which is why lp is superior for voting.. [01:43] nothlit: And the art team is wide open [01:43] nothlit: Hell.. its the REASON for the team [01:44] i actually find gimp is more usable as a general paint tool (as in brush brush brush--not ms paint) than for regular photoshop stuff [01:44] gap is pretty nice though [01:45] nothlit: I am dropping 'building' [01:45] nothlit: Not to mention that the multi window works better in current environments. [01:45] nothlit: Building is roughly equal to creation [01:46] actually-one great sketching/design tool in terms of usability is Alias Sketchbook Pro [01:46] its pen based [01:47] *nix doesn't have much in terms of pen uis [01:47] https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art/+poll/ua-community-theme-poll [01:47] can you see that? [01:47] nothlit: inkscape is one helluva good sketch tool [01:47] Voting hasn't opened yet [01:47] The vote will commence in 1 hours [01:47] nothlit: The more I use it with a tablet the more I love having the ability to edit my strokes. [01:47] hrm... [01:47] i'll paste them [01:48] For a community theme, we'd like to choose some formative words for the yet untitled project. We hope to design around the words - possibly with a motif as a result - for a central theme. Please be aware that our plan is to forge the the two most voted words into a single concept. After the words are chosen, we hope to vote upon a palette that works to support the motivating words. [01:48] I prefer traditional sketching where theres multiple strokes :) [01:48] * Choice: The community theme should have choice as a central thematic. (active) [01:48] * Collaboration: The community theme should have collaboration as a central thematic. (active) [01:48] * Contribution: The community theme should have contribution as a central thematic. (active) [01:48] * Creation: The community theme should have creation (non Biblical) as a central thematic. (active) [01:48] * Friendship: The community theme should have friendship as a central thematic. (active) [01:48] * Progress: The community theme should have progress as a central thematic. (active) [01:48] nothlit: I did... but editing strokes after the fact is pretty darn handy [01:48] lol [01:48] nothlit: I can honestly say that Inkscape is great for developing such things. [01:49] If you are happy with that... [01:49] I'd rather erase the unwanted lines/redraw over [01:49] you now have the link [01:49] lol [01:49] nothlit: I just scrabble craploads and delete them [01:49] then 'tweak' the ones that are darn close. [01:49] otherwise it feels too stiff for me [01:49] it is pretty effective... [01:49] ahh lol [01:49] nothlit: Have you tried inkscape with the tablet and tremor? [01:49] it is total 'wow' [01:49] I'm of the school where you draw as many lines as it takes to get it right :) [01:50] Its interesting [01:50] nothlit: I generally draw till it is right, but the nice thing is that you _can_ tweak the original lines that you started with. [01:50] nothlit: Ok... so thats the poll in place [01:50] 1hour till open time [01:50] Post on forums and list. [01:50] and I suppose we see what interest there is. [01:50] ;) [01:50] 3 days [01:50] great :D [01:51] so it opens in 1 hour and closes in exactly 72 [01:51] (if my math isn't stinking lol) [01:51] ok... i must go buy water. [01:51] (sadly) [01:51] lol [01:51] nothlit: Side notes: It is set up with SECRET VOTING and no SPOILS. === nothlit thinks safeway water is the tastiest in the world [01:51] (this isn't (or shouldn't) be terribly political. [01:52] I don't drink plain water otherwise :) [01:52] nothlit: It is damn hard for me to buy water living in Vancouver. [01:52] nothlit: Flood coming potentially. [01:52] yay! [01:52] nothlit: So post away oh fearless one. [01:53] The forums ARE important [01:53] many people don't yet know about LP, so please post there as well. [01:53] troy_s: i'm trying to find what you suggested to include with my posts [01:53] Just say 'hey a poll...' [01:53] keep it simple [01:53] and just say that we will be trying to generate a palette from it... [01:53] (which is also in the poll question) [01:53] ahh [01:54] If anyone starts down the 'why isn't xxx word on there?' i'll squash it [01:54] it takes folks to step up to do the shit [01:55] I suppose at some point it requires addressing... [01:55] the 'hey let's face it this is for a north american / european styled audience' [01:55] but until it crops up... perhaps we leave it alone. [01:56] nothlit: Also stress that the Forums will be kept abreast of the votes if this thing develops, so they CAN have a say. [01:57] nothlit: Okie... I'm off for a bit. Chunder at you soon. [01:57] troy_s: kk [01:58] nothlit: You will also probably want to subscribe to the community thread you start [01:58] nothlit: As then you can answer questions / etc. [02:17] rofl, the forums went offline exactly after i posted [02:19] YOUR FAULT [02:19] lol === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [03:55] nothlit: Progress? [03:55] yharrow: Get out of your coma and vote. [03:57] troy_s: huh? i posted to the mailing list and forums less than two hours ago [03:57] oh good you did the forums? [03:58] nothlit: The poll should be open. [04:00] troy_s: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2594561 [04:00] you subscribed? [04:00] yeah [04:12] nothlit: Good stuffs. [04:12] nothlit: Again, its a game of hot pokers at first. [04:12] nothlit: lol. [04:13] nothlit: You been watching the implosion? [04:13] http://rlove.org/log/2007050401.html [04:17] troy_s: wow no [04:18] nothlit: That might just well be a killer blow. [04:18] nothlit: Novell will always be able to hire with the cash infusion, but whether it can garner street cred is another. [04:18] nothlit: I wonder how long until jimmac evaluates his cred versus his cash. === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PWill [n=paul@unaffiliated/pwill] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === baker [n=kovrt@i209-195-68-154.cia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === UbuntuStats_ [n=IRCStats@bl5-80-225.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [06:04] darkmatter: I need you [06:04] ? [06:04] darkmatter: What is the pixmap stanza to change the bloody arrows in the toolbar? [06:04] shadow = IN [06:04] works on all arrows in scrollbar troughs [06:04] but for some reason [06:04] when I click on the arrow in the toolbar [06:05] it defaults back to the engines. [06:05] so i am ... lost. [06:05] hmmm... I cant remember offhand... just a sec... me diggeez around for a theme that handles itproperly [06:06] and i noticed that it appears that some have that overlay file (for example the steppers in the scrollbars) OR you can go about defining the arrows (different look slightly of course) [06:07] I usually use overlays... gives me more consistant placement of the arrows in widgets [06:09] well i am trying to lay down some broad strokes [06:09] 'catch alls' [06:09] as you could bloody knock off a theme for an entire lifetime [06:09] troy_s, http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/PlatinUm?content=33112 <--- may be ugly but handles toolbar arrows nicely, just take a looksee at the gtkrc [06:09] if you worry about the little bits. [06:09] there are a few good themes out there [06:09] spherecrystal has some good learning code [06:10] and another -- neutronium [06:10] neutronium's code is cleaner [06:10] troy_s, yeah... I started rebuilding Glory this morning... and if you use the pixmap engine you could work your way up t a 10mb rc trying to get it right :P [06:11] yep [06:11] although i am going with svg on omst [06:11] in fact, thus far, whole. [06:11] cool [06:11] but the arrows in metacity seem to be better rendered to bloody png first... sadly. [06:12] hrm... [06:12] wow... [06:12] darkmatter: So this guy does his stanzas with overlay_files [06:12] for the arrow [06:12] which means you could theoretically have TWO layers on every arrow [06:12] the file [06:12] and the overlay_file [06:12] which poses some interesting options [06:13] yup. [06:13] darkmatter: Ok... got it. [06:13] what the hell is the arrow in the toolbar??!?!?! [06:14] it appears as a HANDLE in bloody platinum [06:15] the look yeah... he just reused the same pixmap methinks [06:15] http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/52050-1.jpeg <-- very old build... but thats why I like overlays [06:15] darkmatter: Which is fine, but i need to know what the hell controls that arrow in normal themes [06:15] (normally it is an arrow) [06:16] the combo entries and option and combo crap in general were misaligned n looked like shite until I switched to using overlays [06:16] ahhh [06:17] darkmatter: I need your superior skills working on GTK for me. [06:17] damn you [06:17] lol [06:17] I bloody do. [06:17] This crap drives me completely bonkers. [06:18] I'll need toi dig around a bit.. I've dozens of themes installed that I hate.. but each does something right with the widget handling [06:18] I am a bigger picture guy who ends up rebuilding the bloody engine. [06:18] I just need to find a decent reference [06:18] Which is not only slow for a guy who has no clue [06:18] but also pointless when it comes to overall design. [06:18] never bothered to really tackle the arrows before [06:18] darkmatter: Damn you. [06:19] :P [06:19] darkmatter: See I am close to entirely liking what you have there... as in I would build off of it. [06:19] darkmatter: But the problem is that certain elements need to have a 3D / real world element to them [06:19] One being buttons -- minimalist like mist. [06:19] the tabs are perfect rounding [06:20] as long as they dont have that hideous trend in clearlooks with the line of colour along the top / edge. [06:20] I'm still trying to figure out how to skin the pathpare seperately from the toolbar in nautilus.. I've found an engine thaat does it... but the code is a mess and trying to find the references is a pita [06:20] i bloody wish you would work on other projects... grr. [06:20] yeah... the clearlooks tabs suck [06:21] in fact, morning is darn close to what i need as a base from that screenshot. [06:21] the troughs are pills though for what i require [06:21] troy_s, I'm working on plenty... problem is I'm extremely picky when it comes to look n feel [06:21] and the buttons needs to be less clearlooks 'flat' and more mist 3d minimal. [06:22] I'll rebuild something a dozen times over trying to makr a one pix line go bye bye [06:22] yeah i know... you have ocd [06:22] :P [06:22] which is why i would love you to extend your wings and just 'pinch the shit off' [06:22] as in perhaps help out on a project that doesn't have your bloody heart and soul wound up in it. [06:22] just work from a union worker point of view. [06:22] true [06:22] that might work [06:23] Lord... I would find someone to give you hummers all day. [06:23] Sure, it might be a guy with no teeth, but SOMEONE. [06:23] lol [06:23] See you have the ability to get the 'whole' look going. [06:23] Which is what I need. [06:23] badly [06:24] so... what is this current beasty yer trying to fix??? any screenies? === BHSPitLappy [n=steve-o@67-64-144-90.dialup.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === klepas [n=klepas@60-242-104-119.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [07:35] darkmatter: Wtf is tinz? [07:35] troy_s: how'd you get the grungness on your floral pattern in inkscape? [07:35] nothlit: Canned effect ;P [07:35] grunge* [07:36] nothlit: Uh... tremor / tablet / and by hand on a more serious note. [07:36] ahhh [07:36] nothlit: Union the strokes, difference them from the source strokes. [07:36] Then redo per layer [07:37] i always do clipping--nondestructive but not very nice to the computer [07:39] nothlit: Actually clips tend to bulk up the time in my experience... but that might have changed. [07:40] nothlit: The other problem is that the clips need to be released etc. [07:40] nothlit: Actually, come to think of it, every stroke in the wall and gdm base (not on bzr yet) were entirely constructed by hand. [07:40] troy_s, TiNZ is Not Zen [07:40] :P [07:41] not helping me darkmatter [07:41] wtf is that? [07:41] wow--are there really 4 pixmap engines? http://live.gnome.org/GnomeArt/Tutorials/GtkEngines [07:42] it a desktop project I was working on until the "helpers" just. vanished. [07:42] it was about user experience [07:42] desktop consistency [07:42] first class crap [07:43] lol [07:43] nothlit: Only one really. [07:43] SVG is non existent to the best of my knowledge. [07:43] eXperience is... well ... not exactly 'there' [07:43] and crux is... hell i don't know about crux. [07:44] darkmatter: Can you push your revision of Glory to bzr so that some people can build off of it? [07:44] darkmatter: As in me. [07:44] lol... once its ready :P [07:44] What percent of the bits are covered [07:44] Bugger that [07:44] it will NEVER be ready [07:44] just pinch it off. [07:45] no.. I mean the revision... havent set up bzr on this install yet.. dont want to stop gimping atm :P [07:46] christ. [07:46] darkmatter: OCD! [07:46] ocd ftw [07:48] troy_s, keep that up and I'll have to pay BHSPitMonkey to spank you with a.... nm [07:48] ;O [07:48] eek [07:51] pardon? [07:52] ask troy_s, he's being naughty *shrug* === darkmatter glues halo to head [07:52] darkmatter: bzr or die. [07:52] darkmatter: Is glory at 100% in terms of coverage yet? [07:53] close [07:53] (by coverage I mean elements) [07:53] darkmatter: Do you think you could bzr it for me? [07:55] soooon === PWill [n=paul@unaffiliated/pwill] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@206-163-248-24.yktn.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [09:49] troy_s, think the shadow on the buttons is a bit much? http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=484764319&context=set-72157594488098254&size=o [09:50] not really, although i find the outline a bit deceptive as it is constant [09:51] hmmmm... ok [09:51] darkmatter: Know what I mean? It is almost as though if you are going to 3d them a bit, that the outline needs to be subject to light. [09:51] yup [09:51] (again, my guts are against the outlines because they trigger clearlooks response syndrome in me) [09:51] lol [09:52] lol... give me a bit.. all I did was hack up some buttons and change the bg color :P [09:53] darkmatter: I would also err on the side of top left. [09:53] darkmatter: The tabs look great. [09:54] okey dokey... I'll play around a bit with the lighting later.. need to colorshift everything to those mor tangoish hues... and fix the scrollbars [09:54] thnx :) === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === bersace [n=bersace@81.185.36.249] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === klepas [n=klepas@60-242-104-119.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === klepas_ [n=klepas@60-242-104-119.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === andreasn [n=andreas@h125n2fls306o1003.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === dborg [n=daniel@e182055164.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [04:48] nothlit: Any feedback on the forums? === dborg [n=daniel@e182055164.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [05:21] troy_s: http://www.paulgraham.com/goodart.html <-- this may be a little more agreeable for you :) === spanella47 [n=spanella@200.50.72.156] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === spanella47 [n=spanella@200.50.72.156] has left #ubuntu-artwork [] [05:31] TheSheep: That appears fare more thought out. [05:32] TheSheep: Although he still seems to try and dismiss relativism as though he needs to. [05:32] TheSheep: Then goes on to prove it... *sigh* [05:32] TheSheep: Although he is certainly prone to trying the old [05:32] TheSheep: Criminology approach from the dark ages -- fall back on physiology. [05:33] TheSheep: What he fails to consider is that his 'human brains are wired to find faces engaging' is rubbish. [05:33] TheSheep: He seems to avoid several complete art movements ranging from Dadaism to German New Wave to Impressionist... [05:33] Etc. [05:34] troy_s: so, you say he lacks experimental material :) [05:34] TheSheep: It is what I keep saying when people bring that crap up -- "If that's the case, it is simple for everyone to follow a procedural approach and deliver absolutely perfect work in everyone's eyes." [05:34] TheSheep: Not exactly... just a little art history would prove how much complete fallacy he is standing on. [05:35] TheSheep: Art isn't stagnant... it has a shelf life largely determined by context and culture. [05:35] troy_s: ah, but not everything must be good in the same way [05:35] TheSheep: For example, while you might find Andy Warhol's work wonderful, you are completely missing the context that it was originally intended and delivered. [05:35] I find it boring and completely stupid :) [05:35] probably because of the lack of context ;) [05:35] TheSheep: Leni Riefenstahl's work is completely lost in context etc... [05:36] troy_s: music is the same [05:36] TheSheep: The simple act of viewing an object out of context changes its perception. [05:36] TheSheep: Take John Water's when he hung beef and ribs off of that guy's unit in Pink Flamingo's -- it makes it funny. [05:36] TheSheep: I would agree. [05:36] TheSheep: How many folks understand the 'Musical Joke" [05:36] or whisky :) [05:37] TheSheep: Heck... if we were to be really silly -- if we made up a mock gui with plastic glossy shiny apple gelly things EVERYWHERE [05:37] TheSheep: It would be quite funny to us -- overdone. [05:37] TheSheep: But in 10 years, it is quite possible not many would get the 'joke' [05:37] Vista Fhtagn is funny [05:37] TheSheep: But I think that link you provided has him heading in a 'better' direction... [05:38] troy_s: it's much more recent [05:38] TheSheep: For example: ""What would make the painting more interesting to people?" [05:38] TheSheep: That's a horribly westernized bit of writing. [05:39] TheSheep: What you realize when you study art from that sort of vantage is that we as western folks are HORRIBLY HORRIBLY culture centric. [05:39] TheSheep: So much so that we are deluded into believing that EVERYONE thinks like WE do. [05:40] troy_s: Taoists or Zen buddhists also tend to suggest that there is "one goodness" [05:40] TheSheep: And it doesn't take a genius to realize how off base this one is: "For products of nature that might work. I'd be willing to eat the apple the world's population had voted most delicious" [05:40] TheSheep: Lol... sure after you make your way all the way to the top of zen, whatever that ends up being... ;) [05:40] Something about nothingness. [05:40] argh [05:41] TheSheep: He is obsessed: "I wrote this essay because I was tired of hearing "taste is subjective" and wanted to kill it once and for all. Anyone who makes things knows intuitively that's not true." [05:41] zen pervades everyhting, so it's best visible when there is nothing else but it ;) [05:41] TheSheep: Again, total rubbish. [05:41] TheSheep: You can't argue that point and hope that any reader will take you seriously. [05:42] troy_s: it's a little different in mathematics or physics [05:42] TheSheep: He is some strange freak that is trying to force some residue agenda he disagreed with in art school or something. [05:42] TheSheep: ABSOLUTELY [05:43] TheSheep: But even then [05:43] TheSheep: We all know [05:43] TheSheep: Everything is relative [05:43] TheSheep: Math too falls apart as soon as you move the vantage [05:43] TheSheep: And try to reconcile it somehow against the other. [05:43] troy_s: ho so? [05:43] TheSheep: Well... just look to anything involving calculations below the speed of light. [05:43] TheSheep: Or mix measuring units. [05:43] TheSheep: Etc. [05:44] troy_s: that's not math [05:44] TheSheep: Everything in math is relative to the vantage from which it is preached. [05:44] TheSheep: Everything only holds true if you _stay_ within the given paradigm. [05:44] TheSheep: In the end, how fast is the ball moving when A throws it to B on trains? [05:44] TheSheep: Is it moving at all? [05:44] TheSheep: Get my point? [05:44] troy_s: no [05:44] troy_s: that has nothing to do with math [05:44] TheSheep: Erk! [05:45] TheSheep: That has everything to do with math. [05:45] TheSheep: You are missing the implied audience if you don't see it. [05:45] troy_s: the fact you have wrong model desn't mean you have wrong math [05:45] TheSheep: Person A throws ball at 10 kms towards Person B on a train travelling 60 kms. [05:45] TheSheep: How fast is the ball travelling? [05:45] troy_s: that's physics, not math [05:45] (Ultimate question ends up being relative to what) [05:45] Still math. [05:46] troy_s: and more about perception, again, than physics [05:46] One plus one = ? [05:46] no, e^i*pi-1=0 is math [05:46] Even that one depends on what you are talking about -- the vantage / perspective. [05:46] BUT 1 ITSELF IS RELATIVE! [05:46] Eek. [05:46] the point of math is that you *alwasy* have the perspective well-defined [05:47] It is one of the reasons that Einstien had such a problem with "Spooky action at a distance" -- he simply was unwilling to reconcile certain attributes to his vantage. [05:47] of course 1 is relative -- it's just a symbol [05:47] the point is that the way the symbols interact is beautiful [05:47] and it's universally so, you only have to understand the notation [05:48] but notation is just a question of language [05:48] not math itself [05:49] troy_s: you start with completely arbitrary set of axioms, and you discover that certain things are the same no matter what axioms you choose [05:50] troy_s: and when I say "completely arbitrary", I *really* mean it [05:51] troy_s: you either get something trivial or something that follows certain rules, every time the same rules [05:51] TheSheep: And when you say 'certain rules' that is what I refer to as the 'relative' zone. [05:52] TheSheep: Needless to say, "Great Art" is deadly simple. [05:52] troy_s: they are not relative, they are always te same no matter what axioms you pick [05:52] troy_s: great math is even more so [05:52] TheSheep: It has everything to do with the context and what it does. Not what it is so much (although that is _everything_ at the time), but what it achieves. [05:53] troy_s: read "Goedel Escher Bach" ;) [05:53] TheSheep: I have. [05:54] TheSheep: Hoffsteader is a bright guy, but he also got a lot wrong. [05:54] TheSheep: As history illustrated. [05:54] %) [05:54] TheSheep: Again, it is unavoidable. If you accept the premise that everything in the world is relative except the speed of light, that means _everything_. [05:54] "everybody thinks I'm stupid, what's wrong with *them*?" [05:54] TheSheep: Contemporary math illustrates that. [05:54] Lol [05:54] homer simpson. [05:55] TheSheep: I don't really feel the need to question it -- it appears very much the case. Hell, the Tao was tapping into that theory 2500 years ago. [05:55] TheSheep: In the end, you either embrace it or run around trying to hit some platonic painting of the perfect tree. [05:56] TheSheep: Its completely silly. [05:56] TheSheep: Art and design has a shelf life. It can only be extremely effective for a slim timeslice (that might even be shrinking thanks to tech). [05:56] troy_s: you have read that story by Tolkien? :) [05:56] troy_s: 'Neagel's Tree' or something [05:57] TheSheep: And that is assuming that it _is_ effective (which it could very well NOT be, especially if you are trying to hit the Platonic ideal of a tree ;) ) [05:57] Neagle's [05:57] TheSheep: Or waft random ill informed gibberish around like: [05:57] http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/63 [05:58] TheSheep: Again, while Mark's comment pretty but unusable seems logical, everyone posting to the bloody blog appears to have missed an implied audience. [05:59] TheSheep: He basically said 'tastes good but tastes bad' [05:59] skin-deep bauty, lol [05:59] TheSheep: And _no_ one caught him out. [05:59] TheSheep: Because they too haven't really spent time investigating what the hell pretty MEANS or IS. [05:59] TheSheep: The very act of 'being pretty' probably implies that it is 'pretty' on a high level. [06:00] TheSheep: Or was he talking about discreet elements? [06:00] TheSheep: Its just a rubbish comment. [06:00] troy_s: you're also slapping pretty decorations on top of an ugly building [06:00] troy_s: with these themes [06:01] Does he think feisty is pretty? [06:01] TheSheep: Also notice that the topic is "Pretty as a Feature" and he can muster up is about three sentences then some completely "what the hell is that about" statements. Lol. [06:01] troy_s: they can't really change the form [06:01] TheSheep: I don't think he knows. [06:01] troy_s: I don't think anybody knows [06:01] TheSheep: A focus group would answer that question. [06:02] TheSheep: And the focus group would most certainly, if I were to bet money, not near a high end of scaling measurement. [06:02] troy_s: but there is a number of well-established scientific methods for optimizing things that work in a way we don't know [06:02] TheSheep: (Subject to demo of course... but again... you could probably argue that no demo would rate it highly as there is NOTHING there to rate.) [06:03] TheSheep: You know what I will say to that. [06:03] LOL [06:03] What the hell does this mean: "pure, unadulterated, raw, visceral, lustful, shallow, skin deep beauty." [06:03] Does it make ANY sense when you change a couple words to say: [06:04] "pure, unadulturated, raw, visceral, lustful, shallow, wonderful food." [06:04] ROFL [06:04] tripe [06:05] Again, it shows you the limit to which his ability to engage the concept of design lies. [06:05] thats what happens when people try to oversell [06:05] nothlit: I am having a hard time seeing _anything_ of a statement in any of those comments. [06:05] Not to say that I don't like Who's logo -- in fact -- I thought it was the best out of the gate (minus some shitey design direction poked by sab) [06:06] troy_s: theres only been one person on the forums btw--but hes added himself to the wiki list and asked how he can get involved, etc [06:07] I don't about beauty, but to sell things you always need well-defined audience :) [06:07] dn't know [06:09] troy_s: anyways, these essays give you pretty much good summary of what average mathematician/scientist/computer geek thinks of beauty :) [06:10] TheSheep: nah [06:11] imho most of them think its the last thing to be concerned about, but probably don't realise that it makes an impression upon them [06:11] nothlit: it fits the ideas of my university firends, at least [06:11] again, in terms of visuals and not technical beauty [06:11] nothlit: good engineer always respects beauty and doesn't dismiss it easily [06:12] nothlit: "technical beauty" translates to visuals [06:12] TheSheep: yes, of a different source [06:12] TheSheep: and no definitely not always [06:13] sort* [06:14] nothlit: can you elaborate? [06:14] anyways--one good thing is that sabdfl thinks visuals are important, not just wobbly windows-- even if he disagrees with the community's direction [06:16] could it be he talks about "skin-deep beauty" to avoid long and winding rants about the meanng of art that we are doing here? ;) [06:16] nothlit: You have some bloody hard words there to visualize by the by [06:16] nothlit: I was giving it thought to execution and there are a couple there that make me shudder... [06:16] nothlit: Milk the creative pool... lol [06:16] TheSheep: a good engineer respects beauty of course, but of sound structure, ingeniously simple solutions etc, not necessarily visuals (they're not architects)--and things beautiful in that sense--don't always end up looking beautiful in 3d form :P [06:17] troy_s: lol, you could have said something-- i would have had no objections in exchanging a few [06:18] TheSheep: The long and winding rants are actually pretty simple if I were to state them: 1) Art isn't just 'art' on an island. It exists in context. It _does_ something. 2) Art has a shelf life -- it can only do something for as long as something is relevant. This changes dramatically -- making jokes about George W. Bush have a longer shelf life than making jokes about Michael Richards. [06:18] nothlit: No way... I was just commenting. [06:18] nothlit: Those are words, and if they can't be negotiated, it has nothing to do with the words and everything to do with ability. [06:19] TheSheep: 3) 'Great Art' stands on a platform in a similar vein as 'Great People' -- defining 'characteristics' is completely useless. One must look beyond the 'individual' to the scope of what they do. [06:19] TheSheep: 4) art and design in computer operating systems must inevitably _QUIT_ looking to 'what the guy next door is doing' [06:20] Wouldn't a comprehensive look at the individual encompass that scope? [06:20] nothlit: But suggesting that there is a 'common' trait amongst those figures is... well... you can guess. [06:21] nothlit: Great individuals, much as "Great Art and Design" -- is a byproduct of circumstance. [06:22] generalisations always fit to some degree--traits like strong leadership, and a vision are going to turn out people more likely to make a change [06:24] but art can be more fluid--but that doesn't mean that their creators haven't dedicated their lives to their art--and evolved greatly etc [06:24] there are always still patterns [06:24] nothlit: One would hope, but that said, one could expect that there have been countless numbers of people with those attributes -- just as when discussing [06:25] art there have been countless people who might be perfect at say -- mimicry [06:25] troy_s: there surely was a countless number of genius violonists in the stone age [06:26] TheSheep: Probably that too. [06:26] TheSheep: Again, it really takes a good deal of circumstance. [06:26] TheSheep: Hell... in fact, arguably, "Great art" is all about the Great Individuals behind the pieces. [06:26] sometimes it's a question of the right people meeting [06:26] Absolutely. [06:27] Its a strange world... although many view that 'Great Works of Art / Design' are 1/1000000000000 type things... [06:27] many great pieces are *responses* [06:27] in some "artistic argument" [06:27] I would probably suggest that they are inevitable at some point. [06:27] absolutely. [06:27] in fact, that's probably the root of every movement that I can think of. [06:28] NO art movement was just 'lets do it for doing its sake' (aside from that "Art for Art's sake" but that too was a reaction/response) [06:28] nothlit: It is part of what the design crowd in FOSS needs -- reaction. [06:28] nothlit: Not the passive 'mimicry reaction', but the more active -- if this then this. [06:28] not all artists did "movements" [06:29] lol [06:29] Are you talking bowel? [06:29] you're talking about social phenomenon of artists and art society [06:29] TheSheep: No, but most artists of a given era participate in a movement -- post modern, modern, etc. [06:29] there are also "lone artists" [06:29] TheSheep: Bah. [06:29] TheSheep: Pollock types? Even then, they are embraced as a result of contemporary form. [06:29] arguably, theyir works often start a "movement" later :) [06:30] are you saying they live in an isolated world?--people can mimic movements of the past--otherwise--they're starting their own [06:30] TheSheep: i would still suggest that it is circumstantial to the 'contemporaries' [06:30] TheSheep: Pollack probably isn't much back during the era of Impressionism. [06:31] nothlit: And then the nasty mix that pulling influences from the past can have on work. [06:31] nothlit: Usually to communicate / state something. [06:31] nothlit: The obvious silly ones are often bound to military imagery, etc. [06:31] troy_s: that gives you art that requires a lot of context to understand [06:31] TheSheep: Not at all... [06:31] TheSheep: The incredible thing is that [06:31] TheSheep: ALL contemporary viewers at a given era [06:32] TheSheep: Are _very_ well educated -- not necessarily formally trained, and certainly not with the functionality to express reasoning behind pieces or whatever [06:32] TheSheep: But they have the 'learned' knowledge to understand. [06:32] TheSheep: For example, if you look to movies... prior to music videos a jump cut was a huge shocker [06:32] TheSheep: And Goddard 'invented' that form for that very reason. [06:32] troy_s: it's a dialog, some lines in a dialog can be understood ripped out of it easily, can stand on their own, but most will change their meaning at best and be completely incomprehensible at worst [06:33] TheSheep: Now, with the 'artistic' music videos hitting mainstream in the mid 90's, it is hard to find a viewer that is 'jarred' by a jump cut -- look to 24 -- they flip the axis ALL the time and no one cares anymore. [06:33] TheSheep: Absolutely. [06:33] TheSheep: Completely agree with you on that point. [06:33] troy_s: jump cuts are still a shock to me -- I probably don't watch enough music videos ;) [06:34] TheSheep: The trickiest thing to do however, is to be the 'Goddard' out there -- to have such a fundamental grasp of the medium that you can warp it to express a message in a new form. [06:34] ah, good artists love their medium [06:34] TheSheep: And I would argue that no matter what, that requires a certain dedication to analysis of both your own work and the work of others -- contemporary and historically. [06:34] TheSheep: They play them like instruments. [06:35] TheSheep: At one point Eddie Van Halen said "What if I do hammer ons for a 'solo'?" [06:35] Poof... new form. [06:35] I think the real problem is that the innovative is hidden behind what we already know. [06:36] So finding a 'contemporary style' is a LOT of hard work actually. [06:36] troy_s: but then there is the "industrial art", the "art of everyday things" [06:36] You need to examine a plethora of different bits and see if you can find some sort of trend between some elements. [06:36] TheSheep: Believe me, you don't get more artsy fartsy than engineering and architectural art. [06:36] %) [06:37] TheSheep: Some architects are more artsy farsty than the biggest of 'artsty types' i can think of... [06:37] TheSheep: My good friends father is an architect and he will talk about Goya and you name it in a knee jerk. [06:38] troy_s: programmers do that too [06:39] troy_s: I'd guess offcie clerks would too, if not the brain damage coaused by their work [06:39] troy_s: that's natural === bersace [n=bersace@did75-13-82-243-217-90.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === BHSPitLappy [n=steve-o@adsl-70-239-47-60.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [07:40] dborg: Have you done any more Lua work? === troy_s [n=aphorism@d206-116-6-170.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === darkmatter [n=darkmatt@unaffiliated/darkmatter] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [08:15] darkmatter: you know about /usr/share/gnome/gnome-panelrc? [08:16] darkmatter: I finally found the link to how to theme the panel PROPERLY, and it doesn't bloody work on Debian. [08:16] yup [08:16] darkmatter: Registered a bug report. [08:16] darkmatter: It should. [08:16] cool [08:20] darkmatter: Well it is the only way to get full themeability (like rounded corners etc.) [08:21] darkmatter: Its bloody frustrating [08:21] yup [08:22] darkmatter: So you don't know of a way to get it working in Debian eh? [08:25] not off hand... I'd need to know what the turds changed in the code, and I really dont feel like digging through diff files atm === BHSPitLappy [n=steve-o@67-64-144-90.dialup.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === troy_s [n=aphorism@d206-116-6-170.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === albi_ [n=albi@bas8-toronto12-1167857442.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [08:36] troy_s: properly--as in make it fit with the regular background and not look like the menu bar? [08:39] nothlit: Yes. [08:39] nothlit: as in use the BOX and FLAT_BOX for example in pixmap to change discreet components of it. [08:39] Without relying on a panel pixmap kludge [08:40] (that won't scale properly, etc.) [08:40] nothlit: Basically, without being able to control it's gtkrc components, you can't really integrate it. [08:41] nothlit: The only elements you can get from the standard gtkrc are the buttons... the panel itself and the dropshadow etc are all untouchable. [08:41] That's not true... [08:41] You can set the panel BG easily [08:42] I can link you to a theme that does that [08:53] albi_: It is true. [08:53] albi_: They use cheats - full scale pixmaps. [08:53] albi_: That is _not_ the proper way to theme a panel. [08:53] albi_: It should be accessed through the gtkrc file controlling the various discreet elements. [08:55] albi_: Which is the sole intention of the /usr/share/gnome/gnome-panelrc -- if it worked. [08:55] What's the point of theming it like that though? [08:55] Maybe slightly less ram used... [08:56] Uh... if you have ever themed a panel you will quickly see the shortcomings of the cheat approach. [08:56] albi_: It doesn't scale properly, it doesn't let you control the various elements discreetly, etc. [09:25] albi_: you know where the actual mailing list is now right? [09:43] troy_s: wow--do you have programmers for your interface proposal? === PWill [n=paul@unaffiliated/pwill] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [11:04] nothlit: It's mostly python... I have talked to Tonic about doing some coding... [11:04] nothlit: If it changes into the ' [11:04] 'remote control' element, it will probably be prototyped into python [11:30] What's this about python? [11:31] albi_: for a different project: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubun2design/u2Specifications/u2InterfaceProposal [11:44] nothlit: I really hope there is some solid effort that bubbles up with the community effort. [11:47] The U2 thing seems pretty cool [11:51] brb === albi_ [n=albi@bas8-toronto12-1167857442.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #ubuntu-artwork