[12:11] <TheSheep> now, for the question: how many people are out there equally dedicated to the history of art? and how many of them already are happy with their macs? :)
[12:11] <troy_s> TheSheep: Well... I didn't exactly want to.
[12:11] <troy_s> TheSheep: I just realized that at some point, if you are dedicated to a craft, you should probably do as those that have followed before you did and get your knocks in.
[12:12] <troy_s> TheSheep: I think the folks are happy with their macs.  That said, that comes from a direct relation with the folks who design their macs.
[12:12] <TheSheep> once, when I was very bored, I spend a totally unproductive morning arguing with a windows zaelot about how ugly is windows
[12:12] <troy_s> TheSheep: The folks who do the work.
[12:12] <TheSheep> he was blind to my arguments :)
[12:12] <troy_s> TheSheep: Yep...  its just like arguing art.
[12:13] <troy_s> TheSheep: I would like to think however, that Ubuntu art and design could theoretically ride on the bloody tidal wave of growth and form a sort of synergy
[12:13] <TheSheep> then again, if we aim at a certain population, we maybe shouldn't really go all high art and aesthetics? :)
[12:13] <troy_s> creating the 'PLEASE MAKE WINDOWS LOOK LIKE UBUNTU' screams as opposed to 'make windows look like mac'
[12:14] <troy_s> TheSheep: I don't think high art has anything to do with it.  Aesthetics certainly.  Contemporary?  Certainly.
[12:14] <TheSheep> make ubuntu look like my car, tv and bed
[12:14] <troy_s> TheSheep: In a perfect design world, I think we would look back on Ubuntu say, 5 years from now with this 'fictional design' and go -- god what were we thinking?
[12:14] <troy_s> THAT, for me, is the ultimate test of contemporary design.
[12:15] <troy_s> If it really feels 'dated' for a given pattern, you probably hit the nail on the head.
[12:15] <troy_s> Good art and design is like food.
[12:15] <troy_s> A twinkie can sit on a shelf for 16 years and still taste like a twinkie.
[12:15] <troy_s> Ralph Feenies cooking tastes good for about 5 minutes from prep, and starts to spoil thereafter.
[12:16] <lapo> there was a theme proposed for edgy which was quite brilliant, we could get some inspiration from it
[12:16] <TheSheep> troy_s: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots
[12:18] <troy_s> TheSheep: What am i looking at?
[12:19] <TheSheep> troy_s: screenshots of various old guis
[12:19] <troy_s> http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/riscos12
[12:19] <troy_s> THAT is where we need to GO
[12:19] <troy_s> RETRO
[12:19] <troy_s> !
[12:19] <troy_s> lol
[12:19] <TheSheep> troy_s: actually, system 4 seems to have much cleaner interface than macosx
[12:21] <troy_s> TheSheep: System4?
[12:21] <TheSheep> except for some vintage vocabulary: note "insertion point" instead of "cursor"
[12:21] <TheSheep> troy_s: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/macos42
[12:22] <troy_s> Yeah a little uh... pedantic
[12:22] <troy_s> Flat.
[12:22] <troy_s> Not that i mean 3d ... but ... square.
[12:22] <TheSheep> what can I say, I'm geek too ;)
[12:23] <TheSheep> but clean and cruft-free
[12:23] <TheSheep> except for a lot of unnecessary lines
[12:26] <TheSheep> the thick 3d frames are really passe now, but they were sooo coool back then
[12:26] <TheSheep> beos always had the nicest icons
[12:28] <lapo> re
[12:28] <troy_s> well that was fun
[12:28] <TheSheep> ugh
[12:28] <TheSheep> how much did I miss?
[12:28] <nothlit> troy netsplit too--nothing
[12:29] <troy_s> super neat
[12:31] <TheSheep> beos had a lot of work put into user interface
[12:31] <nothlit> beos is still alive lol -> haiku
[12:31] <troy_s> TheSheep: Link for be shot from that page?
[12:32] <TheSheep> troy_s: you won't like it :) http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/full/beos5.png
[12:34] <TheSheep> troy_s: win95 took a lot from it
[12:34] <troy_s> it is just an era really ...
[12:34] <troy_s> not much to like or dislike
[12:35] <TheSheep> I think that with this resolution and number of colors, they made several miracles
[12:35] <TheSheep> 16 colors, for gawd's sake
[12:39] <troy_s> TheSheep: more colours has less impact
[12:39] <troy_s> !
[12:40] <troy_s> TheSheep: That's the whole bloody point of a palette
[12:40] <TheSheep> yes
[12:40] <troy_s> For example:
[12:40] <TheSheep> troy_s: that's why beos looked so great with a custom palette, not the default vga one that takes colors from all the color wheel
[12:41] <troy_s> LOL
[12:41] <troy_s> http://plasma.kde.org/
[12:41] <troy_s> talk about a dated design
[12:41] <troy_s> lol lol lol
[12:41] <troy_s> by the time that thing is released it will be following trends that are ala windows 3.1
[12:41] <troy_s> or at least look that way
[12:42] <TheSheep> troy_s: I think that back to system4 is the way to go
[12:42] <TheSheep> troy_s: of course, with current technology
[12:43] <TheSheep> troy_s: rounded corners, gradients, etc.
[12:43] <TheSheep> troy_s: noticed that tere is still no proliferation of gradients in ui design?
[12:43] <TheSheep> troy_s: it starts in www a little
[12:43] <TheSheep> especially "web 2.0"
[12:44] <troy_s> Its official 2.0 is dead
[12:44] <troy_s> lol
[12:44] <TheSheep> it was a zombie from the start
[12:47] <TheSheep> troy_s: looking at the author's photos and sites, I don't put much hope into that plasma project
[12:47] <troy_s> LOL
[12:47] <troy_s> now thats funnyshit
[12:48] <TheSheep> at least they do something
[12:48] <TheSheep> I really regret that displays are gotting so hi-res
[12:48] <TheSheep> pixel art is dying
[12:49] <TheSheep> nobody creates icons and window decorations pixel-pushing anymore :(
[12:49] <TheSheep> games all use 3d
[12:49] <TheSheep> only cellphones and game boy left
[12:49] <troy_s> TheSheep: Shut yer mouth.  I bloody well used to do graphics for games in an era where I had to draw it on graph paper then translate it into a hex table BY HAND.
[12:49] <troy_s> TheSheep: I don't regret progress in that respect.
[12:49] <troy_s> lol
[12:50] <TheSheep> troy_s: I did that too and I miss it
[12:50] <TheSheep> troy_s: somehow, the amount of work you have to put into something to make it work impacts its quality
[12:51] <TheSheep> heck, Knight Lore has amazing graphics even today
[12:51] <nothlit> TheSheep: we get to be creative in a different way now, nothing wrong with that
[12:51] <troy_s> Erm... You should still put planning and thinking and work into things even when you have the chainsaw.
[12:51] <TheSheep> troy_s: but that;s not happening
[12:51] <troy_s> TheSheep: You can thank all the digital 'artists' out there who put a fecking lens flare on a bevel and poof.
[12:52] <TheSheep> troy_s: people used to re-read their papers 10-20 times when they had to pay for printing them -- now they don't even correct typos on blogs
[12:52] <troy_s> TheSheep: If it is any note -- I know at least three high profile art types who throw resumes into the garbage as soon as they spot a canned effect.
[12:52] <troy_s> TheSheep: It influenced me so much that I avoid them like the plague... if you want a lens flare, draw it.
[12:52] <TheSheep> troy_s: but that's normal -- you lower the barriers, you let "amateurs" in
[12:53] <troy_s> Well just MORE of the stuff to sift thorugh.
[12:53] <troy_s> uck
[12:53] <troy_s> brushes.
[12:53] <troy_s> effects... nasty
[12:53] <TheSheep> no, because people don't care and the medicore stuff sells as well
[12:53] <troy_s> the best work i have seen come out of the digital world has all been hand crafted shit.
[12:54] <TheSheep> troy_s: that's one advantage of gimp over photoshop -- they have similar features, just you have to make your own precanned effects in gimp
[12:54] <troy_s> TheSheep: Unfortunately there are a lot of them
[12:54] <nothlit> TheSheep: theres lots of precanning in that comes with gimp
[12:54] <troy_s> Aside from a blur, you shouldn't be allowed to use anything lol
[12:55] <TheSheep> troy_s: somehow, the sweat that pearmetes a work, shows
[12:55] <TheSheep> troy_s: that's what Pirsing calls Quality
[12:55] <nothlit> i think things are fine as long as you can't spot pre-canning
[12:56] <TheSheep> nothlit: you can always spot it, it's just a question of enough training
[12:57] <TheSheep> that's why I hate 3d animations in cartoons so much
[12:57] <TheSheep> they are sooo jarring
[12:57] <TheSheep> and cheap
[12:57] <TheSheep> doing them right takes more work than drawing them by hand
[01:02] <nothlit> .. if i used the cloud effect as a base, and complete painted over it. you could spot that?
[01:03] <TheSheep> nothlit: depends on how much your work would be over it :)
[01:03] <TheSheep> nothlit: but then you could have started with white background as well
[01:03] <nothlit> i'm just theorising lol
[01:03] <nothlit> i said completely
[01:04] <TheSheep> well, then it's your work
[01:04] <nothlit> anyways, filters are often used as sources for random data to further shape
[01:04] <TheSheep> not automated effect
[01:04] <TheSheep> sure, I often useplasma for that
[01:04] <nothlit> thats what i meant lol
 i think things are fine as long as you can't spot pre-cannin
[01:05] <troy_s> that's the trick
[01:05] <TheSheep> but you can't make anything meaningful just juggling filters
[01:05] <troy_s> if you are using canned shit and you can see it, you aren't using it very well.
[01:05] <TheSheep> you need to paste some whotoso from images.google.com too! ;)
[01:05] <TheSheep> s/whotoso/photos
[01:05] <TheSheep> :/
[01:07] <TheSheep> well, thank you guys for the chat, good night
[01:07] <troy_s> Ditto.
[01:07] <troy_s> MUST shower
[01:07] <troy_s> nothlit: Hit me with that poll stuff and I'll plop it in when I get showered.
[01:07] <TheSheep> troy_s: save some sweat to permeate your works ;)
[01:28] <nothlit> troy_s: https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/gutsy/literature/concepts.html --its in there
[01:28] <troy_s> nothlit: I'll put the poll up now and notify you
[01:29] <troy_s> nothlit: then you need to post to the ml and the forums
[01:29] <nothlit> we have an art section in the forums?
[01:31] <nothlit> troy_s: hmm if have a forums section we could put the poll up there--that way more than just the art team can vote?
[01:32] <troy_s> nothlit: art and design i think
[01:32] <troy_s> nothlit: Anyone on lp can vote
[01:32] <troy_s> erm ... art team i guess.
[01:32] <troy_s> nothlit: anyways... how long should the vote run for ?
[01:33] <nothlit> can we lose 5 days to do this?
[01:34] <troy_s> 5 seems long... 3?
[01:35] <troy_s> The problem with the mailing lists is that people who have digests get boned.
[01:35] <troy_s> but ...
[01:36] <nothlit> we can go with 3--i'm just afraid we won't have enough
[01:36] <troy_s> then we go longer
[01:36] <nothlit> the digests aren't a worry imo--those 100 are prolly less interested and less likely to vote anyways
[01:37] <troy_s> do you want to go a week?
[01:37] <troy_s> okie... so... how long can you keep interest up for 3 days?
[01:37] <troy_s> if so...i'll set that.
[01:37] <nothlit> nah thats too long
[01:37] <troy_s> it is, after all, an easy thing to do.
[01:37] <troy_s> vote
[01:37] <troy_s> so...
[01:37] <troy_s> 3 would give everyone plenty of time
[01:37] <nothlit> kk
[01:38] <troy_s> aight...
[01:39] <nothlit> troy_s: is http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=16 it? its not more general?
[01:40] <nothlit> i'll post it there as well if so
[01:41] <troy_s> nothlit: Just tell the buggers to vote on LP
[01:41] <troy_s> nothlit: One central area is a 'good thing' lol
[01:42] <nothlit> thats more closed though
[01:42] <nothlit> this is one area that the general public <can> definitely contribute in on
[01:42] <nothlit> not so with the palettes and the rest
[01:43] <troy_s> You know what really cracks me up... the guys who insist that Gimp is unusable and yet generate total bong.
[01:43] <troy_s> with the commercial tools
[01:43] <troy_s> nothlit: Sure... we can always add but then you get double the votes...
[01:43] <troy_s> nothlit: Which is why lp is superior for voting..
[01:43] <troy_s> nothlit: And the art team is wide open
[01:43] <troy_s> nothlit: Hell.. its the REASON for the team
[01:44] <nothlit> i actually find gimp is more usable as a general paint tool (as in brush brush brush--not ms paint) than for regular photoshop stuff
[01:44] <nothlit> gap is pretty nice though
[01:45] <troy_s> nothlit: I am dropping 'building'
[01:45] <troy_s> nothlit: Not to mention that the multi window works better in current environments.
[01:45] <troy_s> nothlit: Building is roughly equal to creation
[01:46] <nothlit> actually-one great sketching/design tool in terms of usability is Alias Sketchbook Pro
[01:46] <nothlit> its pen based
[01:47] <nothlit> *nix doesn't have much in terms of pen uis
[01:47] <troy_s> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art/+poll/ua-community-theme-poll
[01:47] <troy_s> can you see that?
[01:47] <troy_s> nothlit: inkscape is one helluva good sketch tool
[01:47] <nothlit> Voting hasn't opened yet
[01:47] <nothlit> The vote will commence in 1 hours
[01:47] <troy_s> nothlit: The more I use it with a tablet the more I love having the ability to edit my strokes.
[01:47] <troy_s> hrm...
[01:47] <troy_s> i'll paste them
[01:48] <troy_s> For a community theme, we'd like to choose some formative words for the yet untitled project. We hope to design around the words - possibly with a motif as a result - for a central theme. Please be aware that our plan is to forge the the two most voted words into a single concept. After the words are chosen, we hope to vote upon a palette that works to support the motivating words.
[01:48] <nothlit> I prefer traditional sketching where theres multiple strokes :)
[01:48] <troy_s>     * Choice: The community theme should have choice as a central thematic. (active)
[01:48] <troy_s>     * Collaboration: The community theme should have collaboration as a central thematic. (active)
[01:48] <troy_s>     * Contribution: The community theme should have contribution as a central thematic. (active)
[01:48] <troy_s>     * Creation: The community theme should have creation (non Biblical) as a central thematic. (active)
[01:48] <troy_s>     * Friendship: The community theme should have friendship as a central thematic. (active)
[01:48] <troy_s>     * Progress: The community theme should have progress as a central thematic. (active)
[01:48] <troy_s> nothlit: I did... but editing strokes after the fact is pretty darn handy
[01:48] <troy_s> lol
[01:48] <troy_s> nothlit: I can honestly say that Inkscape is great for developing such things.
[01:49] <troy_s> If you are happy with that...
[01:49] <nothlit> I'd rather erase the unwanted lines/redraw over
[01:49] <troy_s> you now have the link
[01:49] <troy_s> lol
[01:49] <troy_s> nothlit: I just scrabble craploads and delete them
[01:49] <troy_s> then 'tweak' the ones that are darn close.
[01:49] <nothlit> otherwise it feels too stiff for me
[01:49] <troy_s> it is pretty effective...
[01:49] <nothlit> ahh lol
[01:49] <troy_s> nothlit: Have you tried inkscape with the tablet and tremor?
[01:49] <troy_s> it is total 'wow'
[01:49] <nothlit> I'm of the school where you draw as many lines as it takes to get it right :)
[01:50] <nothlit> Its interesting
[01:50] <troy_s> nothlit: I generally draw till it is right, but the nice thing is that you _can_ tweak the original lines that you started with.
[01:50] <troy_s> nothlit: Ok... so thats the poll in place
[01:50] <troy_s> 1hour till open time
[01:50] <troy_s> Post on forums and list.
[01:50] <troy_s> and I suppose we see what interest there is.
[01:50] <troy_s> ;)
[01:50] <troy_s> 3 days
[01:50] <nothlit> great :D
[01:51] <troy_s> so it opens in 1 hour and closes in exactly 72
[01:51] <troy_s> (if my math isn't stinking lol)
[01:51] <troy_s> ok... i must go buy water.
[01:51] <troy_s> (sadly)
[01:51] <nothlit> lol
[01:51] <troy_s> nothlit: Side notes:  It is set up with SECRET VOTING and no SPOILS.
[01:51] <troy_s> (this isn't (or shouldn't) be terribly political.
[01:52] <nothlit> I don't drink plain water otherwise :)
[01:52] <troy_s> nothlit: It is damn hard for me to buy water living in Vancouver.
[01:52] <troy_s> nothlit: Flood coming potentially.
[01:52] <troy_s> yay!
[01:52] <troy_s> nothlit: So post away oh fearless one.
[01:53] <troy_s> The forums ARE important
[01:53] <troy_s> many people don't yet know about LP, so please post there as well.
[01:53] <nothlit> troy_s: i'm trying to find what you suggested to include with my posts
[01:53] <troy_s> Just say 'hey a poll...'
[01:53] <troy_s> keep it simple
[01:53] <troy_s> and just say that we will be trying to generate a palette from it...
[01:53] <troy_s> (which is also in the poll question)
[01:53] <nothlit> ahh
[01:54] <troy_s> If anyone starts down the 'why isn't xxx word on there?' i'll squash it
[01:54] <troy_s> it takes folks to step up to do the shit
[01:55] <troy_s> I suppose at some point it requires addressing...
[01:55] <troy_s> the 'hey let's face it this is for a north american / european styled audience'
[01:55] <troy_s> but until it crops up... perhaps we leave it alone.
[01:56] <troy_s> nothlit: Also stress that the Forums will be kept abreast of the votes if this thing develops, so they CAN have a say.
[01:57] <troy_s> nothlit: Okie... I'm off for a bit.  Chunder at you soon.
[01:57] <nothlit> troy_s: kk
[01:58] <troy_s> nothlit: You will also probably want to subscribe to the community thread you start
[01:58] <troy_s> nothlit: As then you can answer questions / etc.
[02:17] <nothlit> rofl, the forums went offline exactly after i posted
[02:19] <troy_s> YOUR FAULT
[02:19] <troy_s> lol
[03:55] <troy_s> nothlit: Progress?
[03:55] <troy_s> yharrow: Get out of your coma and vote.
[03:57] <nothlit> troy_s: huh? i posted to the mailing list and forums less than two hours ago
[03:57] <troy_s> oh good you did the forums?
[03:58] <troy_s> nothlit: The poll should be open.
[04:00] <nothlit> troy_s: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2594561
[04:00] <troy_s> you subscribed?
[04:00] <nothlit> yeah
[04:12] <troy_s> nothlit: Good stuffs.
[04:12] <troy_s> nothlit: Again, its a game of hot pokers at first.
[04:12] <troy_s> nothlit: lol.
[04:13] <troy_s> nothlit: You been watching the implosion?
[04:13] <troy_s> http://rlove.org/log/2007050401.html
[04:17] <nothlit> troy_s: wow no
[04:18] <troy_s> nothlit: That might just well be a killer blow.
[04:18] <troy_s> nothlit: Novell will always be able to hire with the cash infusion, but whether it can garner street cred is another.
[04:18] <troy_s> nothlit: I wonder how long until jimmac evaluates his cred versus his cash.
[06:04] <troy_s> darkmatter: I need you
[06:04] <darkmatter> ?
[06:04] <troy_s> darkmatter: What is the pixmap stanza to change the bloody arrows in the toolbar?
[06:04] <troy_s> shadow = IN
[06:04] <troy_s> works on all arrows in scrollbar troughs
[06:04] <troy_s> but for some reason
[06:04] <troy_s> when I click on the arrow in the toolbar
[06:05] <troy_s> it defaults back to the engines.
[06:05] <troy_s> so i am ... lost.
[06:05] <darkmatter> hmmm... I cant remember offhand... just a sec... me diggeez around for a theme that handles itproperly
[06:06] <troy_s> and i noticed that it appears that some have that overlay file (for example the steppers in the scrollbars) OR you can go about defining the arrows (different look slightly of course)
[06:07] <darkmatter> I usually use overlays... gives me more consistant placement of the arrows in widgets
[06:09] <troy_s> well i am trying to lay down some broad strokes
[06:09] <troy_s> 'catch alls'
[06:09] <troy_s> as you could bloody knock off a theme for an entire lifetime
[06:09] <darkmatter> troy_s, http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/PlatinUm?content=33112  <--- may be ugly but handles toolbar arrows nicely, just take a looksee at the gtkrc
[06:09] <troy_s> if you worry about the little bits.
[06:09] <troy_s> there are a few good themes out there
[06:09] <troy_s> spherecrystal has some good learning code
[06:10] <troy_s> and another -- neutronium
[06:10] <troy_s> neutronium's code is cleaner
[06:10] <darkmatter> troy_s, yeah... I started rebuilding Glory this morning... and if you use the pixmap engine you could work your way up t a 10mb rc trying to get it right :P
[06:11] <troy_s> yep
[06:11] <troy_s> although i am going with svg on omst
[06:11] <troy_s> in fact, thus far, whole.
[06:11] <darkmatter> cool
[06:11] <troy_s> but the arrows in metacity seem to be better rendered to bloody png first... sadly.
[06:12] <troy_s> hrm...
[06:12] <troy_s> wow...
[06:12] <troy_s> darkmatter: So this guy does his stanzas with overlay_files
[06:12] <troy_s> for the arrow
[06:12] <troy_s> which means you could theoretically have TWO layers on every arrow
[06:12] <troy_s> the file
[06:12] <troy_s> and the overlay_file
[06:12] <troy_s> which poses some interesting options
[06:13] <darkmatter> yup.
[06:13] <troy_s> darkmatter: Ok... got it.
[06:13] <troy_s> what the hell is the arrow in the toolbar??!?!?!
[06:14] <troy_s> it appears as a HANDLE in bloody platinum
[06:15] <darkmatter> the look yeah... he just reused the same pixmap methinks
[06:15] <darkmatter> http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/52050-1.jpeg <-- very old build... but thats why I like overlays
[06:15] <troy_s> darkmatter: Which is fine, but i need to know what the hell controls that arrow in normal themes
[06:15] <troy_s> (normally it is an arrow)
[06:16] <darkmatter> the combo entries and option and combo crap in general were misaligned n looked like shite until I switched to using overlays
[06:16] <darkmatter> ahhh
[06:17] <troy_s> darkmatter: I need your superior skills working on GTK for me.
[06:17] <troy_s> damn you
[06:17] <darkmatter> lol
[06:17] <troy_s> I bloody do.
[06:17] <troy_s> This crap drives me completely bonkers.
[06:18] <darkmatter> I'll need toi dig around a bit.. I've dozens of themes installed that I hate.. but each does something right with the widget handling
[06:18] <troy_s> I am a bigger picture guy who ends up rebuilding the bloody engine.
[06:18] <darkmatter> I just need to find a decent reference
[06:18] <troy_s> Which is not only slow for a guy who has no clue
[06:18] <troy_s> but also pointless when it comes to overall design.
[06:18] <darkmatter> never bothered to really tackle the arrows before
[06:18] <troy_s> darkmatter: Damn you.
[06:19] <darkmatter> :P
[06:19] <troy_s> darkmatter: See I am close to entirely liking what you have there... as in I would build off of it.
[06:19] <troy_s> darkmatter: But the problem is that certain elements need to have a 3D / real world element to them
[06:19] <troy_s> One being buttons -- minimalist like mist.
[06:19] <troy_s> the tabs are perfect rounding
[06:20] <troy_s> as long as they dont have that hideous trend in clearlooks with the line of colour along the top / edge.
[06:20] <darkmatter> I'm still trying to figure out how to skin the pathpare seperately from the toolbar in nautilus.. I've found an engine thaat does it... but the code is a mess and trying to find the references is a pita
[06:20] <troy_s> i bloody wish you would work on other projects... grr.
[06:20] <darkmatter> yeah... the clearlooks tabs suck
[06:21] <troy_s> in fact, morning is darn close to what i need as a base from that screenshot.
[06:21] <troy_s> the troughs are pills though for what i require
[06:21] <darkmatter> troy_s, I'm working on plenty... problem is I'm extremely picky when it comes to look n feel
[06:21] <troy_s> and the buttons needs to be less clearlooks 'flat' and more mist 3d minimal.
[06:22] <darkmatter> I'll rebuild something a dozen times over trying to makr a one pix line go bye bye
[06:22] <troy_s> yeah i know... you have ocd
[06:22] <darkmatter> :P
[06:22] <troy_s> which is why i would love you to extend your wings and just 'pinch the shit off'
[06:22] <troy_s> as in perhaps help out on a project that doesn't have your bloody heart and soul wound up in it.
[06:22] <troy_s> just work from a union worker point of view.
[06:22] <darkmatter> true
[06:22] <darkmatter> that might work
[06:23] <troy_s> Lord... I would find someone to give you hummers all day.
[06:23] <troy_s> Sure, it might be a guy with no teeth, but SOMEONE.
[06:23] <darkmatter> lol
[06:23] <troy_s> See you have the ability to get the 'whole' look going.
[06:23] <troy_s> Which is what I need.
[06:23] <troy_s> badly
[06:24] <darkmatter> so... what is this current beasty yer trying to fix??? any screenies?
[07:35] <troy_s> darkmatter: Wtf is tinz?
[07:35] <nothlit> troy_s: how'd you get the grungness on your floral pattern in inkscape?
[07:35] <troy_s> nothlit: Canned effect ;P
[07:35] <nothlit> grunge*
[07:36] <troy_s> nothlit: Uh... tremor / tablet / and by hand on a more serious note.
[07:36] <nothlit> ahhh
[07:36] <troy_s> nothlit: Union the strokes, difference them from the source strokes.
[07:36] <troy_s> Then redo per layer
[07:37] <nothlit> i always do clipping--nondestructive but not very nice to the computer
[07:39] <troy_s> nothlit: Actually clips tend to bulk up the time in my experience... but that might have changed.
[07:40] <troy_s> nothlit: The other problem is that the clips need to be released etc.
[07:40] <troy_s> nothlit: Actually, come to think of it, every stroke in the wall and gdm base (not on bzr yet) were entirely constructed by hand.
[07:40] <darkmatter> troy_s, TiNZ is Not Zen
[07:40] <darkmatter> :P
[07:41] <troy_s> not helping me darkmatter
[07:41] <troy_s> wtf is that?
[07:41] <nothlit> wow--are there really 4 pixmap engines? http://live.gnome.org/GnomeArt/Tutorials/GtkEngines
[07:42] <darkmatter> it a desktop project I was working on until the "helpers" just. vanished.
[07:42] <darkmatter> it was about user experience
[07:42] <darkmatter> desktop consistency
[07:42] <darkmatter> first class crap
[07:43] <troy_s> lol
[07:43] <troy_s> nothlit: Only one really.
[07:43] <troy_s> SVG is non existent to the best of my knowledge.
[07:43] <troy_s> eXperience is... well ... not exactly 'there'
[07:43] <troy_s> and crux is... hell i don't know about crux.
[07:44] <troy_s> darkmatter: Can you push your revision of Glory to bzr so that some people can build off of it?
[07:44] <troy_s> darkmatter: As in me.
[07:44] <darkmatter> lol... once its ready :P
[07:44] <troy_s> What percent of the bits are covered
[07:44] <troy_s> Bugger that
[07:44] <troy_s> it will NEVER be ready
[07:44] <troy_s> just pinch it off.
[07:45] <darkmatter> no.. I mean the revision... havent set up bzr on this install yet.. dont want to stop gimping atm :P
[07:46] <troy_s> christ.
[07:46] <troy_s> darkmatter: OCD!
[07:46] <nothlit> ocd ftw
[07:48] <darkmatter> troy_s, keep that up and I'll have to pay BHSPitMonkey to spank you with a.... nm
[07:48] <darkmatter> ;O
[07:48] <troy_s> eek
[07:51] <BHSPitMonkey> pardon?
[07:52] <darkmatter> ask troy_s, he's being naughty *shrug*
[07:52] <troy_s> darkmatter: bzr or die.
[07:52] <troy_s> darkmatter: Is glory at 100% in terms of coverage yet?
[07:53] <darkmatter> close
[07:53] <troy_s> (by coverage I mean elements)
[07:53] <troy_s> darkmatter: Do you think you could bzr it for me?
[07:55] <darkmatter> soooon
[09:49] <darkmatter> troy_s, think the shadow on the buttons is a bit much? http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=484764319&context=set-72157594488098254&size=o
[09:50] <troy_s> not really, although i find the outline a bit deceptive as it is constant
[09:51] <darkmatter> hmmmm... ok
[09:51] <troy_s> darkmatter: Know what I mean?  It is almost as though if you are going to 3d them a bit, that the outline needs to be subject to light.
[09:51] <darkmatter> yup
[09:51] <troy_s> (again, my guts are against the outlines because they trigger clearlooks response syndrome in me)
[09:51] <troy_s> lol
[09:52] <darkmatter> lol... give me a bit.. all I did was hack up some buttons and change the bg color :P
[09:53] <troy_s> darkmatter: I would also err on the side of top left.
[09:53] <troy_s> darkmatter: The tabs look great.
[09:54] <darkmatter> okey dokey... I'll play around a bit with the lighting later.. need to colorshift everything to those mor tangoish hues... and fix the scrollbars
[09:54] <darkmatter> thnx :)
[04:48] <troy_s> nothlit: Any feedback on the forums?
[05:21] <TheSheep> troy_s: http://www.paulgraham.com/goodart.html <-- this may be a little more agreeable for you :)
[05:31] <troy_s> TheSheep: That appears fare more thought out.
[05:32] <troy_s> TheSheep: Although he still seems to try and dismiss relativism as though he needs to.
[05:32] <troy_s> TheSheep: Then goes on to prove it... *sigh*
[05:32] <troy_s> TheSheep: Although he is certainly prone to trying the old
[05:32] <troy_s> TheSheep: Criminology approach from the dark ages -- fall back on physiology.
[05:33] <troy_s> TheSheep: What he fails to consider is that his 'human brains are wired to find faces engaging' is rubbish.
[05:33] <troy_s> TheSheep: He seems to avoid several complete art movements ranging from Dadaism to German New Wave to Impressionist...
[05:33] <troy_s> Etc.
[05:34] <TheSheep> troy_s: so, you say he lacks experimental material :)
[05:34] <troy_s> TheSheep: It is what I keep saying when people bring that crap up -- "If that's the case, it is simple for everyone to follow a procedural approach and deliver absolutely perfect work in everyone's eyes."
[05:34] <troy_s> TheSheep: Not exactly... just a little art history would prove how much complete fallacy he is standing on.
[05:35] <troy_s> TheSheep: Art isn't stagnant... it has a shelf life largely determined by context and culture.
[05:35] <TheSheep> troy_s: ah, but not everything must be good in the same way
[05:35] <troy_s> TheSheep: For example, while you might find Andy Warhol's work wonderful, you are completely missing the context that it was originally intended and delivered.
[05:35] <TheSheep> I find it boring and completely stupid :)
[05:35] <TheSheep> probably because of the lack of context ;)
[05:35] <troy_s> TheSheep: Leni Riefenstahl's work is completely lost in context etc...
[05:36] <TheSheep> troy_s: music is the same
[05:36] <troy_s> TheSheep: The simple act of viewing an object out of context changes its perception.
[05:36] <troy_s> TheSheep: Take John Water's when he hung beef and ribs off of that guy's unit in Pink Flamingo's -- it makes it funny.
[05:36] <troy_s> TheSheep: I would agree.
[05:36] <troy_s> TheSheep: How many folks understand the 'Musical Joke"
[05:36] <TheSheep> or whisky :)
[05:37] <troy_s> TheSheep: Heck... if we were to be really silly -- if we made up a mock gui with plastic glossy shiny apple gelly things EVERYWHERE
[05:37] <troy_s> TheSheep: It would be quite funny to us -- overdone.
[05:37] <troy_s> TheSheep: But in 10 years, it is quite possible not many would get the 'joke'
[05:37] <TheSheep> Vista Fhtagn is funny
[05:37] <troy_s> TheSheep: But I think that link you provided has him heading in a 'better' direction...
[05:38] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's much more recent
[05:38] <troy_s> TheSheep: For example:  ""What would make the painting more interesting to people?"
[05:38] <troy_s> TheSheep: That's a horribly westernized bit of writing.
[05:39] <troy_s> TheSheep: What you realize when you study art from that sort of vantage is that we as western folks are HORRIBLY HORRIBLY culture centric.
[05:39] <troy_s> TheSheep: So much so that we are deluded into believing that EVERYONE thinks like WE do.
[05:40] <TheSheep> troy_s: Taoists or Zen buddhists also tend to suggest that there is "one goodness"
[05:40] <troy_s> TheSheep: And it doesn't take a genius to realize how off base this one is:  "For products of nature that might work. I'd be willing to eat the apple the world's population had voted most delicious"
[05:40] <troy_s> TheSheep: Lol... sure after you make your way all the way to the top of zen, whatever that ends up being... ;)
[05:40] <troy_s> Something about nothingness.
[05:40] <TheSheep> argh
[05:41] <troy_s> TheSheep: He is obsessed:  "I wrote this essay because I was tired of hearing "taste is subjective" and wanted to kill it once and for all. Anyone who makes things knows intuitively that's not true."
[05:41] <TheSheep> zen pervades everyhting, so it's best visible when there is nothing else but it ;)
[05:41] <troy_s> TheSheep: Again, total rubbish.
[05:41] <troy_s> TheSheep: You can't argue that point and hope that any reader will take you seriously.
[05:42] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's a little different in mathematics or physics
[05:42] <troy_s> TheSheep: He is some strange freak that is trying to force some residue agenda he disagreed with in art school or something.
[05:42] <troy_s> TheSheep: ABSOLUTELY
[05:43] <troy_s> TheSheep: But even then
[05:43] <troy_s> TheSheep: We all know
[05:43] <troy_s> TheSheep: Everything is relative
[05:43] <troy_s> TheSheep: Math too falls apart as soon as you move the vantage
[05:43] <troy_s> TheSheep: And try to reconcile it somehow against the other.
[05:43] <TheSheep> troy_s: ho so?
[05:43] <troy_s> TheSheep: Well... just look to anything involving calculations below the speed of light.
[05:43] <troy_s> TheSheep: Or mix measuring units.
[05:43] <troy_s> TheSheep: Etc.
[05:44] <TheSheep> troy_s: that's not math
[05:44] <troy_s> TheSheep: Everything in math is relative to the vantage from which it is preached.
[05:44] <troy_s> TheSheep: Everything only holds true if you _stay_ within the given paradigm.
[05:44] <troy_s> TheSheep: In the end, how fast is the ball moving when A throws it to B on trains?
[05:44] <troy_s> TheSheep: Is it moving at all?
[05:44] <troy_s> TheSheep: Get my point?
[05:44] <TheSheep> troy_s: no
[05:44] <TheSheep> troy_s: that has nothing to do with math
[05:44] <troy_s> TheSheep: Erk!
[05:45] <troy_s> TheSheep: That has everything to do with math.
[05:45] <troy_s> TheSheep: You are missing the implied audience if you don't see it.
[05:45] <TheSheep> troy_s: the fact you have wrong model desn't mean you have wrong math
[05:45] <troy_s> TheSheep: Person A throws ball at 10 kms towards Person B on a train travelling 60 kms.
[05:45] <troy_s> TheSheep: How fast is the ball travelling?
[05:45] <TheSheep> troy_s: that's physics, not math
[05:45] <troy_s> (Ultimate question ends up being relative to what)
[05:45] <troy_s> Still math.
[05:46] <TheSheep> troy_s: and more about perception, again, than physics
[05:46] <troy_s> One plus one = ?
[05:46] <TheSheep> no, e^i*pi-1=0 is math
[05:46] <troy_s> Even that one depends on what you are talking about -- the vantage / perspective.
[05:46] <troy_s> BUT 1 ITSELF IS RELATIVE!
[05:46] <troy_s> Eek.
[05:46] <TheSheep> the point of math is that you *alwasy* have the perspective well-defined
[05:47] <troy_s> It is one of the reasons that Einstien had such a problem with "Spooky action at a distance" -- he simply was unwilling to reconcile certain attributes to his vantage.
[05:47] <TheSheep> of course 1 is relative -- it's just a symbol
[05:47] <TheSheep> the point is that the way the symbols interact is beautiful
[05:47] <TheSheep> and it's universally so, you only have to understand the notation
[05:48] <TheSheep> but notation is just a question of language
[05:48] <TheSheep> not math itself
[05:49] <TheSheep> troy_s: you start with completely arbitrary set of axioms, and you discover that certain things are the same no matter what axioms you choose
[05:50] <TheSheep> troy_s: and when I say "completely arbitrary", I *really* mean it
[05:51] <TheSheep> troy_s: you either get something trivial or something that follows certain rules, every time the same rules
[05:51] <troy_s> TheSheep: And when you say 'certain rules' that is what I refer to as the 'relative' zone.
[05:52] <troy_s> TheSheep: Needless to say, "Great Art" is deadly simple.
[05:52] <TheSheep> troy_s: they are not relative, they are always te same no matter what axioms you pick
[05:52] <TheSheep> troy_s: great math is even more so
[05:52] <troy_s> TheSheep: It has everything to do with the context and what it does.  Not what it is so much (although that is _everything_ at the time), but what it achieves.
[05:53] <TheSheep> troy_s: read "Goedel Escher Bach" ;)
[05:53] <troy_s> TheSheep: I have.
[05:54] <troy_s> TheSheep: Hoffsteader is a bright guy, but he also got a lot wrong.
[05:54] <troy_s> TheSheep: As history illustrated.
[05:54] <TheSheep> %)
[05:54] <troy_s> TheSheep: Again, it is unavoidable.  If you accept the premise that everything in the world is relative except the speed of light, that means _everything_.
[05:54] <TheSheep> "everybody thinks I'm stupid, what's wrong with *them*?"
[05:54] <troy_s> TheSheep: Contemporary math illustrates that.
[05:54] <troy_s> Lol
[05:54] <troy_s> homer simpson.
[05:55] <troy_s> TheSheep: I don't really feel the need to question it -- it appears very much the case.  Hell, the Tao was tapping into that theory 2500 years ago.
[05:55] <troy_s> TheSheep: In the end, you either embrace it or run around trying to hit some platonic painting of the perfect tree.
[05:56] <troy_s> TheSheep: Its completely silly.
[05:56] <troy_s> TheSheep: Art and design has a shelf life.  It can only be extremely effective for a slim timeslice (that might even be shrinking thanks to tech).
[05:56] <TheSheep> troy_s: you have read that story by Tolkien? :)
[05:56] <TheSheep> troy_s: 'Neagel's Tree' or something
[05:57] <troy_s> TheSheep: And that is assuming that it _is_ effective (which it could very well NOT be, especially if you are trying to hit the Platonic ideal of a tree ;) )
[05:57] <TheSheep> Neagle's
[05:57] <troy_s> TheSheep: Or waft random ill informed gibberish around like:
[05:57] <troy_s> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/63
[05:58] <troy_s> TheSheep: Again, while Mark's comment pretty but unusable seems logical, everyone posting to the bloody blog appears to have missed an implied audience.
[05:59] <troy_s> TheSheep: He basically said 'tastes good but tastes bad'
[05:59] <TheSheep> skin-deep bauty, lol
[05:59] <troy_s> TheSheep: And _no_ one caught him out.
[05:59] <troy_s> TheSheep: Because they too haven't really spent time investigating what the hell pretty MEANS or IS.
[05:59] <troy_s> TheSheep: The very act of 'being pretty' probably implies that it is 'pretty' on a high level.
[06:00] <troy_s> TheSheep: Or was he talking about discreet elements?
[06:00] <troy_s> TheSheep: Its just a rubbish comment.
[06:00] <TheSheep> troy_s: you're also slapping pretty decorations on top of an ugly building
[06:00] <TheSheep> troy_s: with these themes
[06:01] <nothlit> Does he think feisty is pretty?
[06:01] <troy_s> TheSheep: Also notice that the topic is "Pretty as a Feature" and he can muster up is about three sentences then some completely "what the hell is that about" statements.  Lol.
[06:01] <TheSheep> troy_s: they can't really change the form
[06:01] <troy_s> TheSheep: I don't think he knows.
[06:01] <TheSheep> troy_s: I don't think anybody knows
[06:01] <troy_s> TheSheep: A focus group would answer that question.
[06:02] <troy_s> TheSheep: And the focus group would most certainly, if I were to bet money, not near a high end of scaling measurement.
[06:02] <TheSheep> troy_s: but there is a number of well-established scientific methods for optimizing things that work in a way we don't know
[06:02] <troy_s> TheSheep: (Subject to demo of course... but again... you could probably argue that no demo would rate it highly as there is NOTHING there to rate.)
[06:03] <troy_s> TheSheep: You know what I will say to that.
[06:03] <troy_s> LOL
[06:03] <troy_s> What the hell does this mean:  "pure, unadulterated, raw, visceral, lustful, shallow, skin deep beauty."
[06:03] <troy_s> Does it make ANY sense when you change a couple words to say:
[06:04] <troy_s> "pure, unadulturated, raw, visceral, lustful, shallow, wonderful food."
[06:04] <nothlit> ROFL
[06:04] <troy_s> tripe
[06:05] <troy_s> Again, it shows you the limit to which his ability to engage the concept of design lies.
[06:05] <nothlit> thats what happens when people try to oversell
[06:05] <troy_s> nothlit: I am having a hard time seeing _anything_ of a statement in any of those comments.
[06:05] <troy_s> Not to say that I don't like Who's logo -- in fact -- I thought it was the best out of the gate (minus some shitey design direction poked by sab)
[06:06] <nothlit> troy_s: theres only been one person on the forums btw--but hes added himself to the wiki list and asked how he can get involved, etc
[06:07] <TheSheep> I don't about beauty, but to sell things you always need well-defined audience :)
[06:07] <TheSheep> dn't know
[06:09] <TheSheep> troy_s: anyways, these essays give you pretty much good summary of what average mathematician/scientist/computer geek thinks of beauty :)
[06:10] <nothlit> TheSheep: nah
[06:11] <nothlit> imho most of them think its the last thing to be concerned about, but probably don't realise that it makes an impression upon them
[06:11] <TheSheep> nothlit: it fits the ideas of my university firends, at least
[06:11] <nothlit> again, in terms of visuals and not technical beauty
[06:11] <TheSheep> nothlit: good engineer always respects beauty and doesn't dismiss it easily
[06:12] <TheSheep> nothlit: "technical beauty" translates to visuals
[06:12] <nothlit> TheSheep: yes, of a different source
[06:12] <nothlit> TheSheep: and no definitely not always
[06:13] <nothlit> sort*
[06:14] <TheSheep> nothlit: can you elaborate?
[06:14] <nothlit> anyways--one good thing is that sabdfl thinks visuals are important, not just wobbly windows-- even if he disagrees with the community's direction
[06:16] <TheSheep> could it be he talks about "skin-deep beauty" to avoid long and winding rants about the meanng of art that we are doing here? ;)
[06:16] <troy_s> nothlit: You have some bloody hard words there to visualize by the by
[06:16] <troy_s> nothlit: I was giving it thought to execution and there are a couple there that make me shudder...
[06:16] <troy_s> nothlit: Milk the creative pool... lol
[06:16] <nothlit> TheSheep: a good engineer respects beauty of course, but of sound structure, ingeniously simple solutions etc, not necessarily visuals (they're not architects)--and things beautiful in that sense--don't always end up looking beautiful in 3d form :P
[06:17] <nothlit> troy_s: lol, you could have said something-- i would have had no objections in exchanging a few
[06:18] <troy_s> TheSheep: The long and winding rants are actually pretty simple if I were to state them:  1) Art isn't just 'art' on an island.  It exists in context.  It _does_ something.  2) Art has a shelf life -- it can only do something for as long as something is relevant.  This changes dramatically -- making jokes about George W. Bush have a longer shelf life than making jokes about Michael Richards.
[06:18] <troy_s> nothlit: No way... I was just commenting.
[06:18] <troy_s> nothlit: Those are words, and if they can't be negotiated, it has nothing to do with the words and everything to do with ability.
[06:19] <troy_s> TheSheep: 3) 'Great Art' stands on a platform in a similar vein as 'Great People' -- defining 'characteristics' is completely useless.  One must look beyond the 'individual' to the scope of what they do.
[06:19] <troy_s> TheSheep: 4) art and design in computer operating systems must inevitably _QUIT_ looking to 'what the guy next door is doing'
[06:20] <nothlit> Wouldn't a comprehensive look at the individual encompass that scope?
[06:20] <troy_s> nothlit: But suggesting that there is a 'common' trait amongst those figures is... well... you can guess.
[06:21] <troy_s> nothlit: Great individuals, much as "Great Art and Design" -- is a byproduct of circumstance.
[06:22] <nothlit> generalisations always fit to some degree--traits like strong leadership, and a vision are going to turn out people more likely to make a change
[06:24] <nothlit> but art can be more fluid--but that doesn't mean that their creators haven't dedicated their lives to their art--and evolved greatly etc
[06:24] <nothlit> there are always still patterns
[06:24] <troy_s> nothlit: One would hope, but that said, one could expect that there have been countless numbers of people with those attributes -- just as when discussing
[06:25] <troy_s> art there have been countless people who might be perfect at say -- mimicry
[06:25] <TheSheep> troy_s: there surely was a countless number of genius violonists in the stone age
[06:26] <troy_s> TheSheep: Probably that too.
[06:26] <troy_s> TheSheep: Again, it really takes a good deal of circumstance.
[06:26] <troy_s> TheSheep: Hell... in fact, arguably, "Great art" is all about the Great Individuals behind the pieces.
[06:26] <TheSheep> sometimes it's a question of the right people meeting
[06:26] <troy_s> Absolutely.
[06:27] <troy_s> Its a strange world... although many view that 'Great Works of Art / Design' are 1/1000000000000 type things...
[06:27] <TheSheep> many great pieces are *responses*
[06:27] <TheSheep> in some "artistic argument"
[06:27] <troy_s> I would probably suggest that they are inevitable at some point.
[06:27] <troy_s> absolutely.
[06:27] <troy_s> in fact, that's probably the root of every movement that I can think of.
[06:28] <troy_s> NO art movement was just 'lets do it for doing its sake' (aside from that "Art for Art's sake" but that too was a reaction/response)
[06:28] <troy_s> nothlit: It is part of what the design crowd in FOSS needs -- reaction.
[06:28] <troy_s> nothlit: Not the passive 'mimicry reaction', but the more active -- if this then this.
[06:28] <TheSheep> not all artists did "movements"
[06:29] <troy_s> lol
[06:29] <troy_s> Are you talking bowel?
[06:29] <TheSheep> you're talking about social phenomenon of artists and art society
[06:29] <troy_s> TheSheep: No, but most artists of a given era participate in a movement -- post modern, modern, etc.
[06:29] <TheSheep> there are also "lone artists"
[06:29] <troy_s> TheSheep: Bah.
[06:29] <troy_s> TheSheep: Pollock types?  Even then, they are embraced as a result of contemporary form.
[06:29] <TheSheep> arguably, theyir works often start a "movement" later :)
[06:30] <nothlit> are you saying they live in an isolated world?--people can mimic movements of the past--otherwise--they're starting their own
[06:30] <troy_s> TheSheep: i would still suggest that it is circumstantial to the 'contemporaries'
[06:30] <troy_s> TheSheep: Pollack probably isn't much back during the era of Impressionism.
[06:31] <troy_s> nothlit: And then the nasty mix that pulling influences from the past can have on work.
[06:31] <troy_s> nothlit: Usually to communicate / state something.
[06:31] <troy_s> nothlit: The obvious silly ones are often bound to military imagery, etc.
[06:31] <TheSheep> troy_s: that gives you art that requires a lot of context to understand
[06:31] <troy_s> TheSheep: Not at all...
[06:31] <troy_s> TheSheep: The incredible thing is that
[06:31] <troy_s> TheSheep: ALL contemporary viewers at a given era
[06:32] <troy_s> TheSheep: Are _very_ well educated -- not necessarily formally trained, and certainly not with the functionality to express reasoning behind pieces or whatever
[06:32] <troy_s> TheSheep: But they have the 'learned' knowledge to understand.
[06:32] <troy_s> TheSheep: For example, if you look to movies... prior to music videos a jump cut was a huge shocker
[06:32] <troy_s> TheSheep: And Goddard 'invented' that form for that very reason.
[06:32] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's a dialog, some lines in a dialog can be understood ripped out of it easily, can stand on their own, but most will change their meaning at best and be completely incomprehensible at worst
[06:33] <troy_s> TheSheep: Now, with the 'artistic' music videos hitting mainstream in the mid 90's, it is hard to find a viewer that is 'jarred' by a jump cut -- look to 24 -- they flip the axis ALL the time and no one cares anymore.
[06:33] <troy_s> TheSheep: Absolutely.
[06:33] <troy_s> TheSheep: Completely agree with you on that point.
[06:33] <TheSheep> troy_s: jump cuts are still a shock to me -- I probably don't watch enough music videos ;)
[06:34] <troy_s> TheSheep: The trickiest thing to do however, is to be the 'Goddard' out there -- to have such a fundamental grasp of the medium that you can warp it to express a message in a new form.
[06:34] <TheSheep> ah, good artists love their medium
[06:34] <troy_s> TheSheep: And I would argue that no matter what, that requires a certain dedication to analysis of both your own work and the work of others -- contemporary and historically.
[06:34] <troy_s> TheSheep: They play them like instruments.
[06:35] <troy_s> TheSheep: At one point Eddie Van Halen said "What if I do hammer ons for a 'solo'?"
[06:35] <troy_s> Poof... new form.
[06:35] <troy_s> I think the real problem is that the innovative is hidden behind what we already know.
[06:36] <troy_s> So finding a 'contemporary style' is a LOT of hard work actually.
[06:36] <TheSheep> troy_s: but then there is the "industrial art", the "art of everyday things"
[06:36] <troy_s> You need to examine a plethora of different bits and see if you can find some sort of trend between some elements.
[06:36] <troy_s> TheSheep: Believe me, you don't get more artsy fartsy than engineering and architectural art.
[06:36] <TheSheep> %)
[06:37] <troy_s> TheSheep: Some architects are more artsy farsty than the biggest of 'artsty types' i can think of...
[06:37] <troy_s> TheSheep: My good friends father is an architect and he will talk about Goya and you name it in a knee jerk.
[06:38] <TheSheep> troy_s: programmers do that too
[06:39] <TheSheep> troy_s: I'd guess offcie clerks would too, if not the brain damage coaused by their work
[06:39] <TheSheep> troy_s: that's natural
[07:40] <troy_s> dborg: Have you done any more Lua work?
[08:15] <troy_s> darkmatter: you know about /usr/share/gnome/gnome-panelrc?
[08:16] <troy_s> darkmatter: I finally found the link to how to theme the panel PROPERLY, and it doesn't bloody work on Debian.
[08:16] <darkmatter> yup
[08:16] <troy_s> darkmatter: Registered a bug report.
[08:16] <troy_s> darkmatter: It should.
[08:16] <darkmatter> cool
[08:20] <troy_s> darkmatter: Well it is the only way to get full themeability (like rounded corners etc.)
[08:21] <troy_s> darkmatter: Its bloody frustrating
[08:21] <darkmatter> yup
[08:22] <troy_s> darkmatter: So you don't know of a way to get it working in Debian eh?
[08:25] <darkmatter> not off hand... I'd need to know what the turds changed in the code, and I really dont feel like digging through diff files atm
[08:36] <nothlit> troy_s: properly--as in make it fit with the regular background and not look like the menu bar?
[08:39] <troy_s> nothlit: Yes.
[08:39] <troy_s> nothlit: as in use the BOX and FLAT_BOX for example in pixmap to change discreet components of it.
[08:39] <troy_s> Without relying on a panel pixmap kludge
[08:40] <troy_s> (that won't scale properly, etc.)
[08:40] <troy_s> nothlit: Basically, without being able to control it's gtkrc components, you can't really integrate it.
[08:41] <troy_s> nothlit: The only elements you can get from the standard gtkrc are the buttons... the panel itself and the dropshadow etc are all untouchable.
[08:41] <albi_> That's not true...
[08:41] <albi_> You can set the panel BG easily
[08:42] <albi_> I can link you to a theme that does that
[08:53] <troy_s> albi_: It is true.
[08:53] <troy_s> albi_: They use cheats - full scale pixmaps.
[08:53] <troy_s> albi_: That is _not_ the proper way to theme a panel.
[08:53] <troy_s> albi_: It should be accessed through the gtkrc file controlling the various discreet elements.
[08:55] <troy_s> albi_: Which is the sole intention of the /usr/share/gnome/gnome-panelrc -- if it worked.
[08:55] <albi_> What's the point of theming it like that though?
[08:55] <albi_> Maybe slightly less ram used...
[08:56] <troy_s> Uh... if you have ever themed a panel you will quickly see the shortcomings of the cheat approach.
[08:56] <troy_s> albi_: It doesn't scale properly, it doesn't let you control the various elements discreetly, etc.
[09:25] <nothlit> albi_: you know where the actual mailing list is now right?
[09:43] <nothlit> troy_s: wow--do you have programmers for your interface proposal?
[11:04] <troy_s> nothlit: It's mostly python... I have talked to Tonic about doing some coding...
[11:04] <troy_s> nothlit: If it changes into the '
[11:04] <troy_s> 'remote control' element, it will probably be prototyped into python
[11:30] <albi_> What's this about python?
[11:31] <nothlit> albi_: for a different project: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubun2design/u2Specifications/u2InterfaceProposal
[11:44] <troy_s> nothlit: I really hope there is some solid effort that bubbles up with the community effort.
[11:47] <albi_> The U2 thing seems pretty cool
[11:51] <albi_> brb