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[06:30] <mpt> Goooooooooooooooooood afternoon Launchpadders!
[06:33] <harrisony> someone told me somebody would say "Goooooooooooooooooood afternoon Launchpadders!"
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[06:36] <jml> :)
[06:37] <mpt> Even though the rain is bucketing down
[06:38] <mpt> it's still a good afternoon
[06:41] <mpt> thumper, is it raining in Dunners too?
[06:41] <thumper> on and off
[06:41] <mpt> ok, please make sure it's finished by the time I arrive
[06:41] <mpt> thx
[06:41] <thumper> its been a wierd day weather wise
[06:41] <thumper> aparently we are expecting snow over the weekend
[06:51] <mpt> woot
[06:54] <jml> thumper: c'mon, be serious.
[06:55] <thumper> jml: I am
[06:56] <thumper> btw: don't believe weather sites, they are hardly ever right
[07:01] <jml> thumper: as in "Dunedin is much warmer than they say it is"
[07:01] <jml> or as in "Dunedin is actually hostile to human life. Bring a biohazard suit."
[07:03] <thumper> jml: 4 seasons in one day
[07:03] <thumper> whatever you wear will be wrong
[07:03] <jml> oh good :)
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[07:10] <mpt> muahahahaha
=== mpt finds an evil Launchpad bug
[07:13] <mpt> I love QA
[07:15] <ubotu> New bug: #113939 in launchpad "/projects hierarchy (including front page search) is broken on staging.launchpad.net" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/113939
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[09:26] <carlos> morning
[09:27] <harrisony> evening
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[09:40] <mdke> danilos: yes we could do one soon. I have to implement that po-regeneration trick first
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[10:07] <mpt> Good morning kiko
[10:07] <kiko> morning mattey
[10:07] <kiko> how's it goin
[10:07] <mpt> not so good right at the moment
[10:07] <mpt> I have a doctest failure and can't figure out why
[10:08] <dneary> Hi kiko
[10:09] <dneary> kiko: I got injured, no marathon for me :(
[10:09] <dneary> About 10 days after I was talking to you
[10:12] <kiko> dneary, that's so sad -- how did you get hurt?
[10:13] <dneary> Ilio-tibial band syndrome
[10:13] <dneary> A tendinitis that makes the outside of your knee sore if you run on it
[10:14] <dneary> I apparently aggravated it pretty well on a 30k run :)
[10:14] <kiko> I know exactly what that is
[10:14] <kiko> because my ITBs are very tight
[10:14] <dneary> It can take a couple of months of physio + stretching to get over it, and then perhaps I'll need corrective soles or something
[10:15] <kiko> so I might have warned you that stretching and rest are pretty important
[10:15] <kiko> but I didn't!
[10:15] <kiko> oh well.
[10:15] <dneary> I have been stretching a lot, and cycling a bit, and I did run a 10k the weekend I was supposed to run my marathon (ran it slow, 49 mns)
[10:15] <kiko> my ITBs give me trouble but I visit the physio every week anyway
[10:15] <dneary> You did, actually
[10:15] <kiko> and he stretches me and tells me when I am too tight
[10:15] <dneary> but the ITB stretch isn't woe you'd normally do (at least not me)
[10:16] <kiko> dneary, you can feel it tight though
[10:16] <kiko> which would indicate you need to stretch it
[10:16] <dneary> I actually think that I have some tissue damage in my arse muscle (gluteus maximus) which is the source of all my problems
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[10:17] <dneary> Anyway... I'm already planning my come-back
[10:17] <dneary> I want to get running regularly again before I lose all that conditioning I had built up
[10:18] <dneary> Then I am aiming for a semi in 1h40 in September, and another in 1h35 at the end of October, before doing a marathon in November
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[10:18] <dneary> I might be out of my mind, though :)
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[10:44] <carlos> danilos: hi
[10:45] <ubotu> New bug: #113963 in malone "the packagebugs columns should open the corresponding bugs list" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/113963
[10:50] <mrevell> carlos: hey
[10:52] <carlos> mrevell: hi, how's going?
[10:52] <mrevell> carlos: Hey, not bad. You?
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[10:54] <carlos> mrevell: fine, a bit tired but is last working day for this week :-P
[10:54] <mrevell> carlos: :)
[11:00] <danilos> carlos: hey carlos
[11:00] <carlos> danilos: hi
[11:00] <carlos> danilos: https://translations.launchpad.net/translations/imports/+index?target=distros&status=NEEDS_REVIEW&type=pot
[11:01] <carlos> danilos: there are oo.org templates that were not autoapproved
[11:01] <carlos> I fixed them for Feisty because I touched something that I shouldn't and I thought it was my fault
[11:01] <carlos> but it happened again for Edgy
[11:02] <danilos> carlos: well, I'll look into the mapping file after the meeting
[11:04] <carlos> danilos: ok, thank you
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[11:11] <ubotu> New bug: #113965 in launchpad "Team mugshots page is untidy" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/113965
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[11:40] <ubotu> New bug: #113974 in malone "upstream linking does not know about code_fix" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/113974
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[12:49] <sivang> hi all
[12:49] <sivang> I'm curious to know if there is a way to translate not through the web gui, but through bzr / cvs /svn ?
[12:49] <Hobbsee> sivang!
[12:50] <sivang> Hobbsee!
[12:50] <sivang> Hobbsee: I take it you in the conference? how does it go?
[12:50] <Hobbsee> sivang: it's fun :)
[12:50] <sivang> Hobbsee: ofcourse it is, have you met all of the important people yet? :)
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[12:52] <sivang> hi there elcuco 
[12:52] <elcuco> hi sivang
[12:52] <Hobbsee> sivang: some of htem
[12:53] <sivang> carlos: is there a way to do commit translations in a bzr /cvs /svn way?
[12:53] <sivang> carlos: the KDE .il translators lead would like to use that to backport updated translations from the KDE svn repos
[12:53] <sivang> carlos: and I'd like to help him with that
[12:53] <sivang> carlos: btw, *hug* and hi, long time no see :)
[12:54] <sivang> carlos: alterntatively, we would like to be able to trigger and automatic update from the KDE svn repos, if this is possible
[12:54] <sivang> (I know there supposed to be an automatic periodical process for that)
=== sivang hops carlos or danilos are here and watching :)
[12:56] <sivang> hopes, even
[12:57] <danilos> sivang: you should chat with some of our bzr gurus like ddaa about it, if you want to import existing SVN repo into a bzr tree in Launchpad
[12:57] <danilos> sivang: btw, hi :)
[12:59] <elcuco> So I asume that sivang is a "no-go" for the near future
=== sivang hugs danilos 
[01:00] <sivang> elcuco: not entirly. this just mean we need to go through the bzr RCS system to do that, there might be even a way to automatically do that since bzr now has lots of plugins for importing other RCS data
[01:00] <danilos> sivang: another thing, we had a mail from Hebrew translator-to-be about you being unavailable about two months ago from Diego Iastrubni (and another guy in reply to him) on rosetta-users list, so I wonder if that has worked out ok
[01:00] <elcuco> danilos: thats me
[01:00] <sivang> that's him :)
[01:01] <danilos> heh, ok, so I guess it worked out fine :)
[01:01] <elcuco> WIP
[01:01] <sivang> indeed :)
[01:01] <danilos> well, you got hold of sivang, which is a big step forward :)
[01:01] <carlos> sivang: hey
[01:01] <sivang> carlos !
[01:02] <elcuco> sivang: i assume you know enough bzr, since i am clueless about this.
[01:02] <sivang> carlos: I hope you have better food the raw fish :-p
[01:02] <danilos> so, I can at least remove 'checking what's going on' from my list of things to attend to :)
[01:02] <sivang> elcuco: Yes, I have a few projects using it
[01:02] <carlos> sivang: ugh?
[01:02] <sivang> danilos: yes, I'm on it now
[01:02] <sivang> carlos: you in Seville ?
[01:02] <carlos> sivang: no we don't have bzr integration yet
[01:02] <carlos> sivang: no, I didn't go this time
[01:03] <sivang> carlos: ah okay, I see. Were not David exprimenting with SVN autoimport stuff not long ago ? (in relation to translations)
[01:03] <sivang> ddaa: ^^^
[01:03] <carlos> sivang: launchpad is able to import svn repositories
[01:04] <carlos> sivang: but we don't have that integrated with Launchpad Translations
[01:04] <sivang> ah I see :/
=== carlos -> lunch
[01:09] <sivang> elcuco: can you please file a join request to the team so I can approve you ?
[01:10] <sivang> carlos , danilos : what about importing current translations for upstream KDE ? I Know this should be working by now, can we use that to "backport" translation more updated upstream to rosetta?
[01:11] <danilos> sivang: you can import them, but you'd have to do it one-by-one (per po template)
[01:12] <danilos> sivang: when importing, simply choose 'published upload' instead of 'user upload'
[01:12] <danilos> sivang: alternatively, you can wait for translations in packages to be updated, when they'll be merged in as well
[01:13] <sivang> danilos: why does it need to be done per each template manually? I thought we had an automatic update process...(I might be missing something here so apologies in advance)
[01:13] <sivang> danilos: ah, so MOM also takes care for translation updates from upstream(=KDE, not debian)?
[01:14] <danilos> sivang: it's automatic based on what Ubuntu packages provide: I am not sure how often do they re-import from upstream
[01:14] <sivang> danilos: I wonder if we can auto import only for a specific language and a specific component (KDE,IL_he)
[01:15] <danilos> sivang: no, you can't do that at a moment, unfortunately
[01:16] <sivang> danilos: so to get synced with KDE as upstream, I need to wait to when carlos / admins run the autoimport process for the whole translation  base in all components and all languages?
[01:16] <ddaa> sivang: that's a lot of backlog
[01:16] <ddaa> there was no work recently about bzr-rosetta integration
[01:16] <danilos> sivang: no, you need to wait for Ubuntu to update their KDE packages
[01:16] <ddaa> actually, s/recently/at all/
[01:17] <ddaa> sivang: what can I do to help you that do not involve hundreds of lines of code?
[01:17] <sivang> ddaa: HA HA HA :)
=== sivang hugs ddaa 
[01:18] <ddaa> people have the most weird reactions sometimes
[01:18] <sivang> ddaa: My fellow here, which is the IL_he KDE translation lead would like to be able to backport some translations of his from KDE svn to rosetta
[01:19] <ddaa> sivang: okay, and?
[01:19] <sivang> ddaa: he would like to be able to do that without going thourgh the Web GUI :)
[01:20] <ddaa> that sounds like a reasonable requirement
[01:20] <sivang> ddaa: cool, so how does he do  that? :-p
[01:20] <ddaa> no idea
[01:20] <sivang> eheh
[01:20] <ddaa> it's purely a rosetta problem AFAICT
[01:20] <ddaa> danilos is one of the Rosetta guys
[01:20] <danilos> sivang: even when bzr integration is done, it's not going to be that simple
[01:21] <ddaa> danilos: may I suggest a change of frame of mind?
[01:21] <danilos> sivang: you can't simply sync Ubuntu translations from anywhere, it'd have to go through Ubuntu
[01:21] <sivang> I somehow got the impression that that would be possible, sine rosetta will auto import translation from upstream(=KDE, not debian) but I realize now the only upstream as far as rosetta likes is the debian package...
[01:21] <danilos> ddaa: sure, go ahead
[01:22] <ddaa> danilos: maybe you could reframe the problem in terms of "to do that a simply it would require X, Y and Z", in a "it would be nice if" sort of way
[01:22] <danilos> sivang: Rosetta will import from upstream, but it's up to Ubuntu policies if they will accept such imports directly
[01:22] <danilos> ddaa: I have no control of what Ubuntu packagers do, that's the point
[01:23] <danilos> ddaa: and there's the risk of devaluating Launchpad translators if we just overwrite their translations without asking
[01:23] <sivang> elcuco: does anything of that helps so far?
[01:23] <sivang> elcuco: at least to get the big picture...
=== elcuco is reading
[01:24] <ddaa> danilos: does Rosetta do merges?
[01:24] <danilos> elcuco, sivang: the problem is not the automation itself, it's the policy of what to allow and what not (we are already having a problem with that at the moment, so we need to solve that first)
[01:24] <sivang> danilos: so practically, there is no value to  the import mechanism, since anyway new transltaions only come through merged ubuntu packages?
[01:25] <sivang> danilos: disregard my latest question , you already answered :)
[01:25] <danilos> ddaa: it does, but prefers the Launchpad contributions over any upstream ones
[01:25] <ddaa> I mean, if we imported upstream at first, then some strings were not changed, then we import a newer upstream, then strings which have not been manually changed+approved should be updated transparently, shouldn't they?
[01:25] <danilos> ddaa: that's right, and that's what happens with Ubuntu translations
[01:25] <sivang> I second that
[01:26] <ddaa> Then if one string that was changed in Launchpad is no identical to upstream, it is marked back as upstream?
[01:26] <sivang> danilos: can we get something like this done for hebrew on KDE ?
[01:26] <danilos> sivang: the large problem is with KDE not actually being translatable in Launchpad: Ubuntu's KDE is translatable, which is not entirely the same as upstream KDE
[01:26] <sivang> uh-ha
[01:26] <sivang> I get it
[01:27] <danilos> ddaa: no, if one string changed in Launchpad is not identical to new upstream translation, Launchpad translation is kept, and upstream one is put in DB as a "suggestion" only
[01:27] <danilos> ddaa: source of lot of confusion and complaints, indeed
[01:27] <elcuco> sivang: for examples the new entries in "Help" menu. 
[01:27] <ddaa> danilos: s/no identical/now identical/
[01:27] <danilos> ddaa: ah, then that's right :)
[01:27] <sivang> elcuco: how do you mean?
[01:28] <danilos> sivang: the new Ubuntu menu entries which don't exist in upstream KDE
[01:28] <sivang> elcuco: ah, you mean the LP itegration ones
[01:28] <sivang> danilos: yes
[01:28] <sivang> oops
[01:28] <sivang> s/ danilos / elcuco 
[01:28] <ddaa> danilos: I have a gut feeling that merge conflicts with upstream should give a bit more importance to upstream.
[01:29] <elcuco> well, for all i care, wipe out the ubuntu l10n with kde'supstream l10n, and then fixing whats missing is also a good option
[01:29] <ddaa> I mean, it's obviously a more important "suggestion" than what Joe Random Translator would put in Rosetta.
[01:29] <danilos> ddaa: so do most of the upstream translators, but how do you fix a typo in Launchpad then?
[01:29] <danilos> ddaa: the point is that it's not Joe Random Translator doing the work in Rosetta
[01:29] <ddaa> danilos: I do not see the problem with fixing typos.
[01:29] <danilos> ddaa: at least, we can't treat our users like that
[01:30] <ddaa> It's a merge conflict, when resolving you can fix any typo you want.
[01:30] <danilos> ddaa: well, if they keep reverting to upstream's choice of words with each import
[01:30] <sivang> can we get something like what elcuco suggested to have a fresh and consistent start for KDE he_IL ?
[01:30] <elcuco> sivang: my main concern is about the merges from kde's svn into launchpad. i would like to be notified when this appens, so i can close some things for the next upgrade. both in kde's svn and in rosseta.
[01:30] <ddaa> danilos: Two things there.
[01:30] <danilos> ddaa: well, we are not providing control at that level since that would be overkill; the idea is for Rosetta to be simpler than other translation editors, and most of these imports happen automatically
[01:30] <sivang> elcuco: right, so we need a notification mechanism
[01:31] <ddaa> 1. I'm not suggesting automatically reverting to upstream, just marking the string as "conflicted with upstream" because there were independent diverging changes on Rosetta and upstream.
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[01:32] <ddaa> 2. even if users keep reverting to upstream choice of words each time the string changes in upstream, upstream would be likely to have fixed the typo...
[01:32] <ddaa> maybe in a different way than Rosetta
[01:32] <ddaa> danilos: anyway, I am probably just being a distration in this discussion.
[01:32] <danilos> ddaa: I agree with both points, and I am actually working on providing interface to see what has changed from upstream in Rosetta
[01:33] <danilos> ddaa: not at all, it's just that we are currently lacking nice mechanisms to see things like this
=== ddaa goes back to his other stuff
[01:34] <danilos> sivang: so in short, we can work on this, but we'd need to find best way to do it so we don't hurt Ubuntu users and translators, nor upstreams (a very tough deal, if you ask me :)
[01:34] <elcuco> danilos: just keep in mind, that while i use kubuntu here and i would like to have the "best" translations in my distro, i will only work upstream.
[01:34] <sivang> danilos: indeed
[01:35] <danilos> elcuco: then the simplest thing for you is to convince Ubuntu translators and packagers to import KDE packages with translations as often as possible
[01:35] <sivang> danilos: however, we can introduce something like team preferences
[01:36] <elcuco> danilos: this is easy since as far as i unedrstand i am the ubuntu/kde translator :)
[01:36] <sivang> danilos: so we would set the he_IL team to be more reliant and use the upstream, since there are very few translators which are in low avtivity
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[01:36] <danilos> elcuco: I am talking about all the Ubuntu translators and KDE packagers
[01:36] <sivang> danilos: while other teams, where the ubuntu translator are more active would be more liking there translations to upstream's
[01:37] <danilos> sivang: yeah, that's one of the directions we'll explore for solving this problem regardless of the import
[01:37] <sivang> danilos: good
[01:37] <sivang> elcuco: I gotta go now, would you take it from here?
[01:37] <danilos> sivang: as I said above, one of the oft made complaints from upstream translators
[01:37] <danilos> sivang, elcuco: the important bit is, this won't happen in the next few weeks since we are pretty busy atm
[01:38] <elcuco> sivang: i will leave you a message on msn regarindg my account. i need to fix some mess
[01:38] <sivang> danilos: Yeah, I guessed that :)
[01:38] <sivang> danilos: but in the next 6 months maybe?
[01:39] <sivang> elcuco: sure thing
[01:39] <danilos> sivang: sounds possible (and the thing is, I do want to concentrate on better support for upstreams, but it depends on a whole lot other things as well)
[01:39] <sivang> elcuco: I'll approve you when as soon as I see the membership request
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[01:40] <sivang> danilos: okay, just know you already have a team to expriment with which is more favoring of upstream translations :)
[01:40] <sivang> danilos: (to test with)
[01:40] <danilos> sivang: heh, ok, thanks
[01:41] <elcuco> lets assume i have 3-5 accounts in launchpad. how can i close them all except one?
[01:43] <sivang> anyway, I have to run people, see you soon
[01:45] <danilos> elcuco: you need to 'merge' them
[01:45] <danilos> elcuco: choose one as the primary account, and merge all the others into that one
[01:46] <danilos> anyway, off to have lunch
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[03:19] <elcuco> sorry for the lame question, but how do i join a team?
[03:20] <danilos> elcuco: go to the team page and click "Join a team"
[03:20] <danilos> elcuco: eg. on https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-he select "Join this team"
[03:21] <elcuco> i was looking for this in my personal page, funky (thanks danilos)
[03:21] <danilos> elcuco: np
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[03:45] <elcuco> does anyone know where can i find the text i see in konqeuror when it's launhed?
[03:45] <elcuco> About Kubuntu, Kubuntu Destop Guide, etc?
[03:54] <danilos> elcuco: try https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+source/kdebase/+pots/konqueror/he/+translate?batch=10&show=untranslated
[03:55] <elcuco> here's a good question: how about trademarks? should i transliterate the ubuntu (kubuntu) names to hebrew? or leave in latin letters?
[03:55] <elcuco> (I usually use the 2nd proposition)
[03:56] <danilos> elcuco: depends on the language, translation team policy and on project policy as well
[03:56] <elcuco> project = Ubuntu. And here IMHO the team has no vote, since it;s up to Mark to decide such things
[03:57] <danilos> elcuco: not necessarily: some teams insist on at least transliterating the names
[03:57] <elcuco> that's wrong, since Ubuntu is a trade mark, but  is not a trademark
[03:58] <elcuco> well, it's also an african word, but Windows is also a name of a crappy operating system...
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[04:00] <danilos> elcuco: what worth is a written trademark which cannot be read?
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[04:00] <elcuco> exactly, do you recognize  as a trademark?
[04:00] <elcuco> or ? (bubuntu)
[04:00] <ubotu> New bug: #114034 in launchpad-cscvs "abiword import fails with UnicodeDecodeError" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/114034
[04:01] <danilos> elcuco: no, but will someone who knows no Latin alphabet recognise 'Ubuntu'? of course not
[04:01] <danilos> elcuco: anyway, that's why I said it's up to each team's discretion
[04:02] <danilos> elcuco: if you feel strongly one way, doesn't mean there isn't anyone who feels strongly the other way
[04:02] <elcuco> well, this is definetly not for us to decide. this desition shold be made by lawyers, in order to enforce the *Ububtu trademark is needed
[04:02] <danilos> elcuco: and lingustics is not the right place for companies to express themselves
[04:02] <danilos> elcuco: I have a lot of counter examples where companies do the opposite thing when they think it commercially suits them
[04:03] <danilos> elcuco: and I won't make my language unnecessarily uglier because of company interests
[04:03] <elcuco> well, lets agree that we disagree, no need to continue this debate, as we will probably will not be able to convice the other side that he is wrong
[04:03] <danilos> elcuco: exactly :)
[04:04] <danilos> elcuco: fwiw, search for '' on Google, and you'll see I am not the only one thinking the same
[04:05] <oojah> danilos: Grr, you beat me to showing my mad cyrillic skills :)
[04:05] <danilos> oojah: heh :)
[04:05] <elcuco> those are not official links, but "fan sites". 
[04:05] <elcuco> i had to learn those things when i translated Mandrake
[04:05] <danilos> elcuco: language is the instrument of people, not companies
[04:06] <elcuco> this is why i am translating
[04:07] <danilos> elcuco: right, so make sure you've got agreement within the team to do it the same way throughout, or you'll get a mixture, because no matter what you thought, people think differently
[04:07] <elcuco> but... the "father project" needs to think about the trademark issue. if cannonical makes an official announcement in hebrew and they use the hebrew form, this a green light for me. 
[04:08] <danilos> elcuco: Ubuntu is as much a community project as is a 'child of Canonical', and probably more
[04:11] <danilos> (this means that Hebrew translators from the community would probably be translating the announcement, so it would be up to them to decide on it; at least that's how it works in Gnome)
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[05:00] <ubotu> New bug: #114050 in launchpad-cscvs "importing sometimes leads to bazaar conflicts" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/114050
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[05:10] <ubotu> New bug: #114052 in launchpad "OpenPGP verification sends only to newest subkey" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/114052
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[05:59] <leonardo> Hi, when the status of "Translation import queue" is "Needs Review". I make review or launchpad-admin review?
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[06:35] <Adri2000> someone added a package (djplay), for which I'm subscribed to bugmail, to bug #1, and now I receive all the bugmail of bug #1. is there a way to unsubscribe?
[06:35] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 1 in Ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/1 - Assigned to Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)
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[06:37] <PauloAugusto> hello, anyone here?
[06:39] <PauloAugusto> I need help geting started with some translations. There are terms that are very common and i would like to know what is the most common translation to portuguese of them, like "login" or "log on".
[06:39] <PauloAugusto> How do i search for such common translations that are already made?
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[06:43] <sabdfl> Adri2000: i think you can mark the bug invalid on that package
[06:43] <sabdfl> BjornT would know for certain
[06:46] <Watersevenub> PauloAugusto, Portuguese (Portugal) move to #ubuntu-pt or check  http://www.ubuntu-pt.org/Web/ubuntupt_participar.html. Brazilian Portuguese move to #ubuntu-br :-)
[06:47] <Watersevenub> PauloAugusto, also, #ubuntu-translators 
[06:53] <PauloAugusto> Thanks
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[07:52] <salgado> mthaddon, can you run a query on production for me? (https://devpad.canonical.com/~andrew/paste/fileldqZMX.html)
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