[01:24] <darkmatter> troy_s, http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=493011899&context=set-72157594488098254&size=o <--- which menu do you prefer?
[01:43] <troy_s> darkmatter: Either if you put a gradient on the base flatbox
[01:43] <troy_s> or something...
[01:44] <troy_s> the spherecrystal theme does that, and it is quite pretty albeit very heavy handed
[01:44] <troy_s> darkmatter: In 20 seconds I could not tell those two apart lol
[01:44] <darkmatter> lol
[01:44] <troy_s> ah the dots
[01:44] <troy_s> darkmatter: Ok... lines
[01:44] <darkmatter> k
[01:44] <troy_s> lines are a little more crisp
[01:44] <troy_s> sharp
[01:45] <troy_s> the dots are making me want to go rip apart sheets of lottery tickets
[01:45] <darkmatter> hehe
[01:45] <troy_s> darkmatter: Are my eyes completely going bonkers
[01:45] <troy_s> darkmatter: Is there a 3d shape to that menu?
[01:46] <troy_s> darkmatter: Or is it the byproduct of the edging causing my eye to correct and create those illusiory shadows
[01:46] <darkmatter> it took a bit to get the bleed right in the highlight
[01:46] <darkmatter> yup
[01:46] <troy_s> darkmatter: Yup what?
[01:46] <troy_s> darkmatter: I'm on crack or its there?
[01:46] <darkmatter> its got 3d, and a kinda flat-3d bleed on the blue
[01:46] <troy_s> on the blue yes... but not on the flatbox base
[01:46] <troy_s> correct?
[01:46] <troy_s> you have seen the grad on spherecrystal i am sure yes?
[01:47] <darkmatter> yup... the pixmap is 3d with a slight grad
[01:47] <darkmatter> aye
[01:47] <troy_s> it also does a rounding on the inset, which is quite alright.
[01:47] <troy_s> the gradient on the menus is probably the strongest elements of that theme
[01:48] <darkmatter> ate
[01:49] <lapo> seen this http://www.redhat.com/promo/fonts/ ?
[01:50] <troy_s> wtf is a gpl exception license?
[01:51] <troy_s> lapo: That bodes immensely well -- fonts are a wonderful thing to get growing
[01:52] <troy_s> darkmatter: Get that fecking thing out the bloody door please
[01:53] <troy_s> darkmatter: GTK is driving me bonkers... and I have changed the two elements that I personally require
[01:53] <darkmatter> I'm trying.. trust me... got it figured.. just throwing together the base pixmaps
[01:53] <troy_s> (still need progress bar fancification but I am not doing that until i have an alpha glory as a base...)
[01:53] <troy_s> darkmatter: Can you bzr it too so that I can at least keep current
[01:53] <troy_s> and merge?
[01:54] <darkmatter> yeah.. I'll have to install bzr (clean install here) and import all me crappieez
[01:54] <troy_s> darkmatter: You know you can force a bzr write
[01:54] <darkmatter> yup
[01:55] <troy_s> darkmatter: So just do a forced overwrite to avoid the need to pull and merge and shit
[01:55] <troy_s> darkmatter: Further, I can probably fix some of the major gongs like tab tears etc.
[01:55] <darkmatter> yup
[01:55] <troy_s> darkmatter: And push a branch to help out.
[04:24] <melaren> Hello everyone, I had a couple of ideas I wanted to run past you guys...
[04:26] <melaren> I contacted Frank Schoep regarding one of his blueprint specs for "wide-theme-switcher", but he isn't currently working on the project.
[04:26] <melaren> It seems to me that there is a lot of work being done on the various flavors of Ubuntu that could be shared. For example, the Kubuntu and Xubuntu backgrounds could be a selectable option by default in Ubuntu. Of course, if this was the case, we would also need the GDM, Splash, etc., to change to create a unified theme. Ideally it would be nice for each flavor have a completely different color scheme. So let's say Ubuntu stays brown, Kubuntu
[04:26] <melaren> Currently there isn't much diversity in the default theme selection. ...there are four blue themes in Feisty, despite users calling blue "clich" for operating systems. It would also be nice to see one or two relatively neutral photos as selectable wallpaper. I recently tried the live Sabayon Distro. The photo wallpaper was striking. ...the rest of the artwork, not so much. It would be nice for Ubuntu users to have high quality photo wal
[04:28] <melaren> ...looking at the release of Uuntu Sudio, it would also be nice to share that system-wide theme with the regular Ubuntu release
[04:35] <troy_s> melaren: Hello
[04:35] <melaren> Hey :)
[04:35] <troy_s> melaren: Generally photos don't work well
[04:35] <troy_s> melaren: From a contrast point of view
[04:35] <wedderburn> melaren: the one for ubuntu studio will be in the ubuntu repo's by gutsy or it should be
[04:35] <troy_s> melaren: We don't have too much say as to what goes where, and frank has left the ubuntu scene
[04:35] <melaren> ok
[04:36] <melaren> yeah, that's what he said
[04:36] <troy_s> melaren: And if you want the uS theme, you can add the repo from the site.
[04:36] <troy_s> melaren: If you want better design and such, complain to sabdfl.
[04:36] <troy_s> melaren: And tell your friends to.
[04:36] <wedderburn> LOL
[04:36] <troy_s> melaren: The more the merrier.
[04:36] <melaren> Ok
[04:36] <troy_s> in fact, if you really want to have an impact
[04:37] <melaren> what do you think about sharing the work being done between the flavors?
[04:37] <troy_s> formulate a nicely phrased standard email and have it forwarded to all of the relative folks at canonical.
[04:37] <melaren> ...kubuntu, xubuntu, ubuntu studio
[04:37] <troy_s> melaren: I think it is an option.  I would say it is probably secondary to getting Ubuntu's design pattern actually with a heartbeat
[04:37] <troy_s> melaren: And if anyone asks you who told you... just say wedderburn said so.
[04:37] <melaren> yeah
[04:38] <melaren> lol
[04:38] <wedderburn> :O
[04:38] <troy_s> melaren: Seriously though, I am quite passionate about ubuntu's design as in it is sub satisfactory for a microsecond where it actually has the momentum to really make a difference.
[04:38] <wedderburn> and if anyone asks say havoc said so
[04:38] <melaren> yeah
[04:38] <troy_s> melaren: So the more attention it gets (and not of the silly 'brown sux' or whatever variety) the better.
[04:39] <melaren> Well, we already have selectable themes, but they are really just Ok
[04:39] <troy_s> they are ...
[04:39] <melaren> the new gloss one is decent
[04:39] <wedderburn> brown doesn't suck its just bland the way they've done it
[04:39] <melaren> yeah
[04:39] <troy_s> wedderburn: Agree... monochromatic brown
[04:39] <wedderburn> i loved some of the edgy art
[04:39] <melaren> It looks good until I use a different theme
[04:39] <wedderburn> it had greens and all in it
[04:39] <melaren> then I'm like, "hmm"
[04:40] <wedderburn> the icons are a mess when you mix them in wiht all the tango ones
[04:40] <melaren> yeah
[04:41] <melaren> Ok, so I'm looking at the theme preferences and I'm thinking "we could have a better default selection"   ...without trying too hard
[04:42] <melaren> I haven't installed ubuntu studio yet, but looking at the screenshots, it looks quite respectable
[04:44] <melaren> I'm just trying to get a feel for what you guys think...  ...because I'll work on a proposal for the "higher-ups" if I get decent feedback from people who have some experience in the community (more than I do).  There are plenty of people with ideas, many of the ideas are terrible, I'm just trying to ensure that mine isn't one of them...
[04:45] <troy_s> wedderburn: wellt he main problem is that tango's belief is that they are usable
[04:45] <troy_s> and icons are at least as big an aesthetic as anything else
[04:45] <melaren> true
[04:46] <troy_s> melaren: You will get a thousand different opinions from a thousand different folks
[04:46] <melaren> hehe, true
[04:46] <wedderburn> personally i would like a green desktop
[04:47] <wedderburn> greens great you can mix it with brown and blue
[04:47] <troy_s> melaren: You would need to build your case from a very researched and respectable point of view.
[04:47] <troy_s> melaren: in the end, hire a real designer.
[04:47] <troy_s> melaren: If you are going to spend any money, hire the real deal.
[04:51] <melaren> well all I'm proposing is that we try to utilize the work that is already being done.  ...so making the ubuntu studio theme w/icons & background a selectable option by default.  ...in place of one of the lousy selectable themes currently in Theme Preferences like, "Crux" or "High Contrast"
[04:52] <melaren> ...and green would be great, but it doesn't look like Ubuntu is going to change any time soon.   ...they may consider changing the Xubuntu color scheme
[05:00] <troy_s> melaren: The work that is done is weak
[05:00] <troy_s> if you are meaning borrowing from x or k
[05:00] <troy_s> its the same homogenized blah mess
[05:03] <wedderburn> melaren: the desktops been the same for ages, we need to change it :P
[05:07] <melaren> I think if work was borrowed from x, x would need a color theme change (preferably to green).  This is what I was thinking...  ...If x, k, and projects like ubuntu studio all have different color schemes; and the artwork is respectable, it would be cool to have those themes (along with wallpaper, etc) as a selectable option.  This way a Ubuntu user would have a Brown theme (default), and an option to select a green (x), blue (k), and black theme (u
[05:12] <troy_s> melaren: You could do a 1000000 different releases with distinct motifs with brown as a base
[05:13] <troy_s> melaren: The downside is that we dont have any bloody one who knows what a motif is.
[05:13] <nothlit> i'd hope theres one or two :P
[05:13] <troy_s> melaren: So unfortunately, it will take Diana over at Fedora to embarass us
[05:13] <troy_s> melaren: Before the billion dollar man admits that perhaps, just maybe, just possibly, there are people out there who have a better idea about design than he does.
[05:14] <troy_s> nothlit: Seriously nothlit -- you are the exception
[05:14] <troy_s> nothlit: I pushed motifs at the paris uds for god knows how long
[05:14] <troy_s> how hard
[05:14] <troy_s> etc.
[05:14] <troy_s> _no_ clue
[05:14] <melaren> ok ok
[05:14] <troy_s> its a big hole
[05:14] <melaren> yeah, fedora is very nice looking
[05:14] <melaren> ..I don't remember what the icons look like
[05:14] <nothlit> anyways =/ ubuntustudio is supposed to be distinct--theres no reason users can't use that look, but its a horrible idea to provide different color schemes like that--horrible dilution of identity and message--and theres plenty of themes out there people can use
[05:15] <melaren> Yeah I kinda thought about that... ...it's a branding thing at this point
[05:15] <melaren> ...Ubuntu is the "brown" operating system
[05:15] <nothlit> but in terms of colorisation--theres a gnome color chooser that edits the gtkrc, you may like that
[05:15] <troy_s> melaren: Branding is ONLY effective if it bears a communicative message.
[05:16] <melaren> true true
[05:16] <melaren> ....but at this point it would probably be odd to switch from brown
[05:17] <troy_s> there is _nothing_ wrong with brown
[05:17] <melaren> ...even though I would support such a decision
[05:17] <troy_s> brown works
[05:17] <troy_s> has worked since 3000 bc
[05:17] <troy_s> always will work
[05:17] <melaren> haha
[05:17] <troy_s> lock it in with context
[05:17] <troy_s> message
[05:17] <wedderburn> i liked how they made things more orange feels warmer
[05:17] <troy_s> and audience
[05:17] <wedderburn> and thats what a new os should be
[05:17] <wedderburn> warm fuzzy feel safe
[05:17] <melaren> yeah, orange was nice
[05:17] <nothlit> a single color doesn't make a mood
[05:18] <melaren> I thought it would be cool if they kept transitioning the color
[05:18] <nothlit> its a selection, used appropriately
[05:18] <melaren> Ok, thanks for the conversation guys.  I appreciate the feedback.
[05:23] <BHSPitMonkey> I liked the orange color palette
[05:23] <BHSPitMonkey> until I got sick of it.
[05:38] <troy_s> nothlit: AMEN
[05:39] <troy_s> nothlit hit the nail on the head.  it is _all_ fundamentally about communication, and communication entails more than a single letter to build a word.
[06:46] <nothlit> ooh, a thousand self portraits in a thousand days http://www.conceptart.org/artist/andrew-jones/images/1000_sp/1000_sp_2500x4400.jpg
[06:48] <nothlit> troy_s: do you get how this schedule works for us? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess#head-c9d177822a71b90ec5fb703ed0d0f30eeb8fc1db --i don't get how much versioning applies to a targetted distro and release specific artwork package
[06:49] <nothlit> troy_s: we have to make it in before new packages freeze--but then how does revision work-- usually versioning can't change and only bug fixes--but does that mean we can't change anything except touchups or what?
[06:49] <nothlit> troy_s: or does it not apply
[07:02] <troy_s> nothlit: Sorry... reading.
[07:02] <troy_s> nothlit: Was busy... give me a moment
[07:02] <nothlit> np
[07:03] <troy_s> nothlit: Yes...
[07:03] <nothlit> irc works great on delay too :)
[07:03] <troy_s> nothlit: If you are out on non Ubuntu main stuffs
[07:03] <troy_s> you can avoid feature freeze etc.
[07:04] <troy_s> nothlit: As for artwork, I think the idea is more along the lines of 'open' as it isn't really a formalized process in terms of art and design.
[07:04] <troy_s> nothlit: One area you COULD argue similarities between would be something like GDM
[07:04] <nothlit> i was just wondering how much revision we can do before hard freeze
[07:04] <troy_s> nothlit: I would assume that if you made it to the freeze, your GDM code should probably be the same, etc.
[07:04] <nothlit> because its not like software where version changes can break things
[07:05] <nothlit> and its specific to ubuntu, and for that release
[07:07] <nothlit> ahh kk
[01:57] <wedderburn> troy_s: you know whats brown and everyone loves, coffee, ubuntu should pay homage to the caffeine gods the coffee bean in the form of art :-p
[05:46] <troy_s> wedderburn: You obviously were not watching the mailing list re your last comment :)
[05:46] <wedderburn> troy_s: mailing list?
[05:46] <wedderburn> link us
[05:47] <troy_s> let me see...
[05:48] <troy_s> you can start with the colour thread...
[05:48] <troy_s> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2007-April/thread.html
[05:50] <wedderburn> troy_s: i thought it was something good, i read the colour thing ppl talking about colours been bad because of different culters
[05:50] <troy_s> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2007-April/003873.html -- last paragraph
[05:51] <troy_s> wedderburn: Pretty much exactly your thinking.
[05:56] <wedderburn> haha
[05:56] <wedderburn> cool
[05:57] <wedderburn> troy_s: i didn't see this though
[05:57] <wedderburn> troy_s: kinda went though the first lot and went meh
[06:01] <troy_s> wedderburn: It is mostly meh
[06:02] <troy_s> wedderburn: Mostly people piping off about their opinions, their beliefs etc.
[06:02] <troy_s> wedderburn: Very very very very few actually trying to site the research and study in the area.
[06:02] <wedderburn> but i mean
[06:02] <troy_s> wedderburn: Go ask a professional psychologist about color psychology :)
[06:03] <wedderburn> you got foam you got coffee you got beans you got coffee berries
[06:03] <wedderburn> so many colours all organic
[06:03] <troy_s> wedderburn: I tried to do a little of both -- 1 dismiss the garbage about brown, and 2 provide real world examples of companies that have used brown as a _base_ colour and hit billion dollar sales.
[06:03] <troy_s> wedderburn: absolutely
[06:03] <troy_s> wedderburn: you have a limited palette all supporting that brown base.
[06:03] <troy_s> wedderburn: look to adidas for some of that too...
[06:04] <troy_s> wedderburn: in fact, i just saw a shoe add with grunge (it is popping up everywhere now sigh)
[06:04] <troy_s> brown base.
[06:04] <troy_s> hell... its even in shiny car advertisements... yet again hitting on contemporary design trends.
[06:04] <troy_s> guess where it will end up next?
[06:05] <troy_s> wedderburn: I think the biggest problem of all with Ubuntu is that things are tried ONCE, and based on (generally poor) execution, the ideas are tossed out as 'not working'
[06:05] <troy_s> which isn't really the most productive way to try something...
[06:05] <troy_s> rather like Apple trying to make an early version of the iPod with a 3.5 inch hard disk, finding out that it isn't successful with the focus groups, then quitting.
[06:06] <wedderburn> indeed
[08:27] <troy_s> darkmatter: !
[08:30] <darkmatter> troy_s, !
[08:32] <troy_s> darkmatter: You know the question so just cut to the answer.
[08:32] <darkmatter> the answer is no?
[08:33] <darkmatter> was way to busy yesterday.. but will have most of the weekend to myself to play
[08:39] <troy_s> Okie.
[09:10] <troy_s> darkmatter: Again, when you THINK you have hit on all the bases -- alpha or otherwise -- please push.
[09:11] <darkmatter> yup
[09:11] <troy_s> darkmatter: As the sooner I can get a feel for what needs twiddles the easier on my end.
[09:33] <troy_s> darkmatter: Is there any chance you can put up what you have now?
[09:33] <troy_s> darkmatter: I want to pull some screenshots
[09:34] <troy_s> darkmatter: And the bloody lack of attention GTK has currently is boning me.
[09:49] <BHSPitMonkey> I'm really not sure what it would be like to be boned by a lack...
[10:18] <troy_s> darkmatter: What is that panel control you using in your screenshots?
[10:18] <troy_s> darkmatter: Have you tried gimmie?
[10:19] <darkmatter> troy_s, gimmie is to clicky and fugly, though its a decent conept, the executions off
[10:19] <troy_s> fugly for certain
[10:19] <darkmatter> as for what I use
[10:20] <troy_s> beyond fugly
[10:20] <darkmatter> gnome-main-menu
[10:20] <darkmatter> version 2
[10:20] <darkmatter> :P
[10:20] <troy_s> i am looking for something more mainstream in terms of presentation
[10:20] <troy_s> ?
[10:20] <troy_s> where is that?
[10:20] <darkmatter> gnome svn
[10:20] <darkmatter> gnome-main-menu/brances/versio-2
[10:20] <darkmatter> *version
[10:20] <darkmatter> *branches
[10:21] <troy_s> are there screenshots for it around?
[10:21] <darkmatter> not many screenies of version 2 cept mine ;)
[10:22] <darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=484184032&size=o
[10:27] <troy_s> well thats a helluva stepup from the crap that we have now
[10:27] <troy_s> darkmatter: Now to just blow the bloody panel out entirely.
[10:28] <troy_s> grr.
[10:28] <darkmatter> lol
[10:28] <troy_s> well... maybe make it a little less panel like
[10:28] <troy_s> less circa 1989
[10:28] <troy_s> _something_?
[10:30] <darkmatter> well, once glory is done I'm tossing together a few quick mockups to peak interest in my next project. basically a hybrid first class ui thing
[10:32] <darkmatter> the "panel" is more of a shelf really. has a hybrid mode that uses thumbnails for task switches.. purebred is much more complicated
[10:32] <darkmatter> but both are tied into a "library"
[10:38] <darkmatter> I'd go into the details, but it'd take to long
[10:38] <darkmatter> but as others can attest to... no menus, or panels to be seen ;)
[10:38] <darkmatter> except in hybrid, for those who cant live without a "startbutton"
[10:39] <troy_s> its good to have the interface boil down to a singular
[10:39] <darkmatter> I've pages and pages notes on it
[10:39] <troy_s> (strictly speaking in terms of a casual computer user)
[10:40] <darkmatter> basically it would need a core lib for the library.. the ui would be kinda universal
[10:41] <darkmatter> so you would have access to everything from a single point, yet in an uncomplicated.. as hig as an allinone shopping center can get
[10:41] <darkmatter> so.. if you went to "music", that page of the library would have playback controls, etc
[10:42] <troy_s> hig is shit
[10:42] <darkmatter> basically the idea is to create a data management tool that is first class (as in abstracts the application shit n puts the data first)
[10:42] <troy_s> and it is the furthest thing from all in one that i could describe
[10:43] <darkmatter> makes use of the new core technologies like libburn n telepathy etc
[10:43] <darkmatter> but, i digress. example
[10:44] <troy_s> hrm... libburn?
[10:44] <darkmatter> you have a "gossip" or "blab" or "contacts" whatever page in the library
[10:44] <darkmatter> libburns the new framework for cd/dvd authoring
[10:45] <darkmatter> so you open that page, it has a list of the contacts, basic info, links for addy's n im accounts, online statuse etc
[10:46] <darkmatter> clicking an addy would open a blank document (basically evo or tbird or whatevers composition window, but just kinda bypassing the whole launch application thingy)
[10:50] <darkmatter> troy_s, or, another example.. basically, the ui "shelf" is a glorified notification center.. akin to a sock ticker on steroids.. but more useful, you can almost look at it like desktop widgets or gadgets too, but thats not really the best analogy
[10:50] <darkmatter> but anyway... on to the example
[10:51] <darkmatter> say your boss needs a  presentation finished. job falls to you
[10:52] <darkmatter> deadlines friday, you start the presentation, have other work to do, so save it n set a reminder for wednesday (basically could have a remind me feature in the office ui or just in the library, whatever)
[10:52] <darkmatter> so, wednesday at xxx time rolls around
[10:53] <darkmatter> a reminder appears in the shelf "finish presentation for stupi..."
[10:54] <darkmatter> clicky the reminder would open the document directly
[10:54] <darkmatter> or you could right click it, a tile pops up gives you other options
[10:54] <darkmatter> to dismiss it, delay it, whatever