[01:24] <Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
[01:25] <ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 21 May 03:00: Xubuntu Developers | 23 May 06:00: Technical Board | 24 May 06:00: Edubuntu | 25 May 06:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 28 May 00:00: LoCo Team | 30 May 01:00: Kernel Team
[01:26] <ajmitch> that's not too early for you
[01:26] <Hobbsee> sure it is
[01:28] <Treenaks> @schedule Amsterdam
[01:28] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 20 May 19:00: Xubuntu Developers | 22 May 22:00: Technical Board | 23 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 24 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 May 16:00: LoCo Team | 29 May 17:00: Kernel Team
[06:03] <vinze> Has the Xubuntu meeting started yet?
[06:04] <pochu> @now
[06:04] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: May 20 2007, 16:04:24 - Next meeting: Xubuntu Developers in 55 minutes
[06:04] <vinze> 55?
[06:04] <pochu> That's what ubotu says :)
[06:04] <vinze> O wait...
[06:05] <vinze> I always thought I was in GMT+1
[06:05] <vinze> But then it turns out I'm in GMT+2
[06:05] <vinze> ...
[06:05] <pochu> vinze: summer time? ;)
[06:05] <vinze> Oh that'll be it :(
[06:05] <pochu> :)
[06:05] <vinze> But does that increase GMT?
[06:05] <vinze> Weird..
[06:05] <pochu> It does, yes.
[06:06] <vinze> So when summer time arrices, GMT stays the same but all timezones are +1...
[06:06] <vinze> Stupid >.<
[06:06] <shawarma> Er.. no. :)
[06:07] <shawarma> Not every country switches to daylight savings time on the same day or at the same time of day.
[06:07] <vinze> Ah OK
[06:07] <vinze> That explains
[06:07] <shawarma> Hence: We need a measure of time that is dependable regardless of our respective time zones.
[06:07] <vinze> Right...
[06:07] <vinze> I was already wondering when I installed Feisty ;)
[06:08] <shawarma> Even if we all switched on the same day, we all do it at 2 a.m. *local* time. When should GMT switch?
[06:08] <vinze> Yeah it's troublesome ;)
[06:08] <shawarma> Precisely. :)
[06:08] <pochu> There's a command to print the local hour in GMT, but can't remember which :)
[06:08] <pochu> something -u :)
[06:08] <vinze> Ah doesn't matter that much ;)
[06:08] <stgraber> pochu: date -u I guess
[06:08] <vinze> Yeah
[06:08] <pochu> stgraber: yeah, thanks :)
[06:09] <vinze> $ date -u
[06:09] <vinze> Sun May 20 16:08:55 UTC 2007
[06:09] <vinze> d'oh
[06:09] <pochu> vinze: that may help you when you're in doubt ;)
[06:56] <somerville32> Oh, look. My clock must be off by 5 minutes :/ -- all of my clocks, lol
[07:00] <j1mc> hi all
[07:00] <nixternal> howdy
[07:00] <somerville32> Hiya
[07:00] <earobinson> hey
[07:01] <j1mc> wow, nixternal is here, too
[07:01] <nixternal> sitting here at the CoDLUG meeting :)
[07:01] <nixternal> it is nice and quiet here today
[07:01] <nixternal> getting some hacking done
[07:01] <j1mc> cool.
[07:01] <ongardie> hey
[07:02] <j1mc> hi ongardie
[07:03] <somerville32> Is this the first xubuntu-devel meeting for Gutsy?
[07:03] <j1mc> somerville32: yes it is
[07:04] <somerville32> Awesome. I'm pumped.
[07:04] <j1mc> me, too
[07:05] <j1mc> according to the agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings ... we're supposed to cover:
[07:05] <j1mc> featureset for 7.10
[07:05] <j1mc> discussion of help center
[07:05] <j1mc> ideas for 7.10 documentation (yeay!)
[07:05] <j1mc> and ... whether or not to add a murrine gtk theme.
[07:05] <j1mc> i am not married to this agenda, though.
[07:06] <j1mc> np, somerville32
[07:07] <j1mc> let us know when you're done.  we'll give you a few minutes.
[07:09] <j1mc> hi maxamillion
[07:09] <maxamillion> sorry i am late
[07:10] <j1mc> np, cody is editing the agenda on the wiki
[07:10] <maxamillion> good stuff
[07:10] <j1mc> he'll let us know when he's done...
[07:10] <maxamillion> ok
[07:11] <somerville32> done
[07:11] <maxamillion> grazie: !!! :) ... welcome to the meeting :) ... http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/898
[07:12] <j1mc> ok!
[07:12] <grazie> maxamillion: thanks...just being nosey
[07:12] <j1mc> grazie: agenda up at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[07:13] <maxamillion> grazie: you should participate! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[07:13] <maxamillion> lol
[07:13] <j1mc> i'm out at free geek chicago.  ping me when discussion about documentation comes up.  freddy martinez and i have a lot of ideas and such.
[07:14] <j1mc> i don't knw much about the help center.
[07:14] <maxamillion> awesome
[07:14] <maxamillion> wait .. the help center?
[07:14] <grazie> maxamillion:  not a slow as my new broadband(?) connection
[07:14] <grazie> j1mc: reading through now...
[07:15] <j1mc> do we want to use it?  didn't we get a working draft ready for feisty?
[07:15] <maxamillion> grazie: yeah, i am about to move into a new place in roughly 5 days and i am worried the broadband supplier there will be slow :/
[07:15] <maxamillion> j1mc: i think you are talking about the welcome center
[07:15] <somerville32> *centre

[07:16] <maxamillion> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Feisty/XubuntuWelcomeCenter
[07:16] <maxamillion> somerville32: tomato, tomato ....
[07:16] <somerville32> I question how useful it will be.
[07:17] <somerville32> The welcome centre is an interesting idea but it accomplish little more then documentation does.
[07:17] <j1mc> i think so, too
[07:17] <ongardie> it might get in the way if auto-started
[07:17] <maxamillion> somerville32: i think it would be exponentially useful, giving first time users a quick overview of the project, and empowering them with resources they need to be aware of in order to accomplish every day tasks
[07:18] <somerville32> aka - our documentation :P
[07:18] <maxamillion> ongardie: it would only auto-start on the first boot of a fresh install and has a check box to continue autostarting, but will always autostart on the liveCD
[07:18] <somerville32> Developing our own application is a lot of work and overheard.
[07:18] <maxamillion> somerville32: well, yes .. that and the wiki, the forums, etc.
[07:19] <maxamillion> somerville32: but 80% of our users never look at the documentation
[07:19] <ongardie> i don't think the app would have to be that complex, but you'd have to get good content **and** translate it
[07:19] <somerville32> Then maybe we should find out how we can make the documentation more visible and useful to users?
[07:20] <maxamillion> somerville32: put it in the welcome center :)
[07:20] <j1mc> topic-based help is more useful than what we have in place now, though.
[07:20] <somerville32> Maybe we should looking at removing any gnome dependencies from yelp?
[07:20] <ongardie> maybe we can package the docs as html files and do the same thing as the welcome center, but with content we already have and through a browser that already exists
[07:21] <somerville32> ongardie, Thats what already happens with the documentation.
[07:21] <maxamillion> ongardie: yeah, the docs just pop up in firefox atm
[07:21] <ongardie> well, then we just need to make that more visible
[07:21] <somerville32> Firefox is rather "big".
[07:21] <j1mc> i think that removing the gnome deps from yelp could be useful.
[07:21] <maxamillion> somerville32: its about to get bigger
[07:22] <ongardie> i don't see how putting the docs in a python app will improve everything
[07:22] <somerville32> j1mc: Thats actually what I was thinking.
[07:22] <somerville32> ongardie, I think what we want to accomplish is showing some kind of welcome documentation at boot. Firefox is for sure too heavy to be auto-started.
[07:22] <j1mc> yelp looks an awful lot like the welcome center. :)
[07:22] <maxamillion> ongardie: the welcome center was tested on a 200mhz machine with 128mb of ram, the load time was trivial and using the app was snappy
[07:23] <ongardie> i don't know about you guys, but let's be honest: I would never open the thing and i sure as hell don't want it opening itself
[07:24] <ongardie> a launcher on the desktop that opens a "heavy" application would suffice, in my opinion
[07:24] <maxamillion> ongardie: right, but after the first boot of a fresh installation, you can tell it to never open again
[07:24] <somerville32> I think adding a launcher would be a good first-step.
[07:24] <maxamillion> lets be honest, the current wave of linux users is helpless and they need things shoved in their face before they have a clue what's going on
[07:25] <ongardie> they are helpless when it comes to internals
[07:25] <ongardie> i honestly believe most people can figure out the desktop apps without help
[07:25] <maxamillion> ongardie: i would hope so, that is all rather straight forward
[07:25] <somerville32> As long as we can get it all to work right out of the box :)
[07:26] <somerville32> Windows 98's welcome centre failed horribly.
[07:26] <somerville32> We should learn from it.
[07:27] <ongardie> what about windows XP's tour? they really made a mistake having that thing run without accelerated video drivers
[07:27] <ongardie> heh
[07:27] <somerville32> hehe
[07:27] <somerville32> I think we should ditch the welcome centre project.
[07:27] <somerville32> The other buntus do not have things auto-loading like that.
[07:27] <maxamillion> anyone seen Vista's automated garbage?
[07:28] <maxamillion> somerville32: no, but the ubuntu welcome center has been in the works for some time now
[07:28] <j1mc> maxamillion: you mean the whole OS vista?  :)
[07:28] <somerville32> maxamillion, And when it gets released, we can simply use that instead of developing our own.
[07:28] <maxamillion> j1mc: heh ... no joke, i am tired of fixing that OS at work
[07:28] <j1mc> somerville32: when what gets released?
[07:28] <maxamillion> somerville32: and all the annoying gnome dependencies that come with .....
[07:28] <maxamillion> j1mc: the ubuntu welcome center
[07:29] <ongardie> i think the welcome center effort would be better placed in 1) improving the docs, 2) making the docs easily available to new users
[07:29] <somerville32> It is easier to get rid of gnome dependencies then developing and maintaining our own software.
[07:29] <j1mc> 1) would removing gnome deps from yelp be difficult? and . . .
[07:29] <j1mc> 2) would yelp lead people to our docs?
[07:29] <maxamillion> j1mc: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWelcomeCentre
[07:29] <somerville32> ongardie, I concur.
[07:30] <ongardie> yelp depends on libbeagle? wtf
[07:30] <maxamillion> i think their idea is bloated and overbearing and will ultimately fail .... just as microsoft's ... but our idea is simple, its just some docs that answer the most commonly asked questions
[07:30] <maxamillion> ongardie: yeah, gnome apps are cool like that
[07:30] <ongardie> maxamillion: heh
[07:30] <somerville32> maxamillion, If you feel strongly about this project, you can continue to develop it, package it, and get it into Universe. It is pointless to debate this at this point when the thing isn't even ready to be included.
[07:31] <ongardie> yelp depends on firefox?
[07:31] <maxamillion> somerville32: agreed
[07:31] <maxamillion> ongardie: probably just on gecko
[07:31] <somerville32> ongardie, Most likely for the gecko engine.
[07:31] <maxamillion> :P
[07:32] <ongardie> oh right. i guess they still haven't properly separated the two
[07:32] <ongardie> the next item on the agenda is a biggie: "7.10 Documentation roadmap"
[07:32] <somerville32> Woot woot! :)
[07:32] <j1mc> w00t!
[07:32] <maxamillion> bleh
[07:32] <j1mc> hehe
[07:32] <ongardie> heh
[07:33] <j1mc> i'm excited about creating topic-based help for xubuntu.
[07:33] <maxamillion> i can't stand writing docs, xml seems retarded to me
[07:33] <somerville32> Who were the individuals that were really interested in helping with documentation?
[07:33] <j1mc> me and freddie martinez
[07:33] <somerville32> There was another fellow.
[07:34] <ongardie> (i'm going to eat lunch, but i'll be back)
[07:34] <vinze> Here I am :D
[07:34] <vinze> What's the current subject?
[07:34] <somerville32> Documentation
[07:34] <j1mc> hi vinze ... talking aboug docs
[07:35] <vinze> K
[07:35] <j1mc> somerville32: perhaps it was vincent?
[07:35] <somerville32> Ok, there seems to be an xubuntu-doc team
[07:36] <j1mc> who is in it?
[07:36] <maxamillion> yup, sure am
[07:37] <maxamillion> is there an editor i can use to exit the docs without having to traverse through xml?
[07:37] <somerville32> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-doc
[07:37] <somerville32> maxamillion, Yes.
[07:38] <maxamillion> somerville32: awesome
[07:38] <maxamillion> what is it?
[07:38] <somerville32> There a few different ones. You'll need to refer to wiki docs
[07:38] <somerville32> As for documentation, wasn't there someone who agreed to head that up?
[07:39] <somerville32> Awesome! :)
[07:39] <somerville32> j1mc: Tell us what you have planned.
[07:40] <j1mc> yes, we are excited about this.  we're planning on having weekly in-person doc-hacking sessions this summer to completely update xubuntu-docs
[07:40] <j1mc> we plan to get things in line with topic-based help
[07:40] <j1mc> we are both part of the chicago-loco team, along with nixternal who does a ton of work for kubuntu docs
[07:41] <somerville32> Any plans on updating the stylesheet?
[07:41] <j1mc> in terms of other specifics at the moment, we don't have much.
[07:41] <j1mc> hadn't thought to update the style sheet yet, but that would be a good idea.
[07:41] <j1mc> perhaps use some css from the soon-to-be updated xubuntu website?
[07:42] <j1mc> somehow?  /me is not a css expert
[07:42] <somerville32> I would speak with TheSheep.
[07:42] <vinze> It doesn't look too complicated
[07:42] <somerville32> but something more appealing would be nice.
[07:42] <j1mc> agreed.
[07:42] <vinze> Yeah, it's kinda... Gray
[07:43] <somerville32> I think it would be wise to have an xubuntu-doc meeting
[07:43] <j1mc> somerville32: you reference "browser" in the meeting agenda.  care to elaborate?
[07:43] <somerville32> j1mc: Same thing as in discussion about the welcome centre.
[07:43] <somerville32> Firefox is big and bloated.
[07:44] <somerville32> Having a light-weight doc browser would be useful, I think.
[07:44] <somerville32> Maybe work with upstream?
[07:44] <j1mc> with xfce folks?
[07:44] <somerville32> Gnome and KDE both have their own documentation browsers.
[07:44] <j1mc> yelp is the one for gnome?
[07:45] <j1mc> and you think that removing the gnome deps would be too difficult, and would rather get something from upstream?
[07:45] <somerville32> j1mc: We'll have to investigate.
[07:46] <TheSheep> somerville32: wouldn't just a web browser be enough?
[07:46] <somerville32> TheSheep: Thats the question.
[07:46] <maxamillion> if we are looking at upstream, kalikiana is in the process of writing a lightweight GTK+ broswer in C using the webkit engine as opposed to gecko
[07:47] <TheSheep> there is a number of ready ones too, even including dillo
[07:47] <j1mc> maxamillion: thanks... where can we find info on that?
[07:47] <vinze> Wouldn't Gecko be a safe choice in terms of website compatibility?
[07:47] <maxamillion> don't know how far upstream it will be before a stable release results, but meh
[07:47] <somerville32> I think it would be good to have a chat with the ubuntu-doc team.
[07:47] <TheSheep> vinze: but we don;t need it for websites, and the documentation would be abviously tweaked for the browser
[07:47] <maxamillion> vinze: yes, but webkit is what the OS X safari browser runs on, its rather feature rich to be honest
[07:47] <vinze> Oh, you want a browser especially for docs...
[07:47] <maxamillion> oh ...
[07:48] <ranf> dillo is fast a lightening but tends to get ugly sometimes.
[07:49] <j1mc> somerville32: what do you have in mind with chatting w/ the ubuntu-doc team
[07:49] <somerville32> I don't think installing another, lighter, web browser is a very appealing solution.
[07:49] <TheSheep> yelp uses gtkhtml2 and it's ok
[07:50] <somerville32> j1mc: I think that they'd be able to help answer the questions we have.
[07:50] <vinze> ranf, what do you mean by "getting ugly"?
[07:50] <j1mc> ok.
[07:50] <somerville32> I think the question at the moment is: Is a documentation browser other then Firefox appealing?
[07:50] <j1mc> will we still go with docbook.xml, though?  we're just concerned about presentation, right?  that's the only thing that seems to be up in the air...
[07:51] <vinze> But DocBook easily exports to other formats
[07:51] <somerville32> We're for sure not moving away from DocBook.
[07:52] <j1mc> i like the idea of having a separate app for documentation, if only because people open up a web browser and use it to start searching the web.
[07:52] <vinze> (with somerville32)
[07:52] <vinze> I think you have a point j1mc but someone would need to take care of either removing gnome-deps from yelp or finding an alternative
[07:53] <maxamillion> j1mc: i agree with you on your point about the docs opening in the browser and being ignored because people want on the net
[07:53] <TheSheep> more modern templates (using xhtml and css) would be nice
[07:53] <j1mc> TheSheep: yes, we agreed the current look is rather gray... :(
[07:53] <TheSheep> j1mc: I tried to make a style, but basciallly everything is hardcoded in the html
[07:54] <maxamillion> joy
[07:55] <j1mc> TheSheep: yesss!  hardcoded into html is ... awesome.  :)
 I hope
[07:56] <maxamillion> awesome like a stroke
[07:56] <j1mc> yes... sarcasm.  :)
[07:56] <somerville32> You "compile" the docbook into html.
[07:57] <TheSheep> somerville32: yes, we just need to use different templates
[07:57] <j1mc> ... i'm sure that things will come up as we develop the new set of documentation, but we'll make the process as transparent as possible.
[07:57] <j1mc> and we have good resources with nixternal and others.
[07:58] <j1mc> i am confortable with the writing aspect, but... is there someone who would like to take on the application/presentation part?
[07:58] <j1mc> ... would like to head that up?
[07:59] <j1mc> is it something we could push out to the mailing list to seek help with?
[07:59] <j1mc> ... if no one here wants to take it up now?
[07:59] <vinze> I'm afraid there won't be many volunteers
[07:59] <vinze> Nah
[08:00] <j1mc> hmmm... would it be a big problem to use yelp as-is, seeing as people don't open up the docs all that often?
[08:01] <j1mc> would the gnome deps be a big issue?
[08:01] <gpocentek> yes
[08:01] <vinze> I think most people aren't even aware of the docs
[08:02] <j1mc> if it's going to be a big problem with getting a separate app, i say we just stick with having them in firefox for now.
[08:02] <vinze> Yeah I guess so
[08:03] <j1mc> maybe a nicer stylesheet will encourage people to use them.  :)
[08:03] <vinze> Yeah I hope so :D
[08:03] <vinze> Same goes for the default homepage
[08:04] <j1mc> ok.  let's go with that for now unless someone objects.  besides, our manpower could probably be put to better use in other areas that more users will appreciate.
[08:05] <vinze> Agreed
[08:05] <maxamillion> i am really having trouble finding anything classified as a docbook viewer other than yelp ...
[08:06] <maxamillion> i know it would be a pain, but anything think we should poll and see if the rest of the development community feels it worth while to remove yelp's gnome libs and make a yelp-gtk package in main?
[08:06] <gpocentek> it'll be a mess
[08:06] <vinze> Well, we'd need someone to step up and do it anyway
[08:06] <gpocentek> honnestly, going with firefox is IMO the best solution
[08:08] <maxamillion> gpocentek: my only issue with that, as j1mc stated, is that if the docs pop up in firefox i think majority of people would ignore them because they now have a browser infront of them and they will proceed to google or otherwise
[08:08] <j1mc> maxamillion: maybe we could set it up so that firefox launches a special instance w/o the navigation buttons, links toolbar, etc.  ...
[08:08] <maxamillion> j1mc: oooo, that's an idea
[08:08] <TheSheep> now we need a xul programmer instead of a C programmer
[08:09] <maxamillion> lol
[08:09] <maxamillion> that will be harder to find
[08:09] <vinze> Wouldn't there be a special mode?
[08:09] <j1mc> freddy martinez (aka Admiral_Chicago) is also on the mozilla team.  i was thinking that there was a special mode or something.
[08:09] <j1mc> i'm sure we could at least find out.
[08:09] <vinze> Or perhaps do some "firefox --new-tab "javascript:popup" blabla
[08:10] <vinze> Or I guess without the "--new-tab"
[08:10] <j1mc> i'll check on that... it sounds like a good compromise if we don't need an xul developer (or whatever)
[08:10] <maxamillion> j1mc: we could make a 'documentation' profile under firefox and have the docs open firefox with that profile using some custom settings
[08:11] <j1mc> maxamillion: good idea.  again, i'll check into it with freddy.
[08:11] <maxamillion> okies
[08:11] <j1mc> :)  yeay!
[08:11] <maxamillion> brb
[08:11] <vinze> K
[08:12] <vinze> They're not all I think
[08:12] <j1mc> moving on to feature considerations, then?
[08:12] <vinze> Guess so
[08:13] <j1mc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings (for those who joined late)
[08:13] <vinze> The Welcome Center
[08:13] <j1mc> ^^ our agenda
[08:13] <vinze> O wait
[08:13] <vinze> Sorry
[08:13] <vinze> Murrine
[08:13] <j1mc> did you add that to the agenda, vinze?
[08:13] <vinze> Erm, yes, think so
[08:13] <vinze> Mainly because we still didn't use Murrine for Feisty
[08:14] <j1mc> ok.  what are you thinking?  (btw, we have ~45 minutes left in the meeting)
[08:14] <vinze> Well... That we did use Murrine for Gutsy :P
[08:14] <j1mc> ok.  i know that jmak already had some theme ideas for gutsy, so you may want to talk with him early in the process.
[08:15] <vinze> Well, I suppose he has ideas for themes, but they just need to be implemented
[08:15] <vinze> I don't like his choices, but I think any Murrine-based theme is better than Clearlooks
[08:16] <j1mc> it would be good to see what he has in mind.  i think he was pushing for a murrine-based theme, but we just ran out of time last time.
[08:16] <vinze> Ah OK
[08:16] <vinze> Then I suppose we'll be able to make it for Gutsy
[08:17] <j1mc> any other comments on theme stuff?  i'd like to move on to stuff like network manager, games, etc.
[08:17] <vinze> Let's move on
[08:17] <j1mc> ok.  network manager.  :)  gnome's one works well in xubuntu's panel, but ... there's interest in removing the gnome libs and using for xubuntu.
[08:18] <ongardie> noooooooo!
[08:18] <j1mc> no?
[08:18] <j1mc> that was an emphatic no.
[08:18] <ongardie> heh, i think network manager is buggy
[08:18] <j1mc> somerville32 added it to the agenda ...  perhaps he'd like to say what he had in mind.
[08:19] <j1mc> somerville32: you there?  or still on the phone?
[08:19] <ongardie> (http://spuriousinterrupt.org/projects/airconfig should be pretty cool once it's ready, though)
[08:19] <j1mc> somerville32: what do you need a phone for.  we have irc.  ;-)
[08:20] <vinze> Well we *do* need WPA support ;)
[08:20] <vinze> Was that the project from an Xfce dev?
[08:20] <vinze> Anyway, if that's not ready yet I suppose it'll be more buggy than NM
[08:21] <ranf> vinze, Brian Tarricone
[08:21] <ongardie> vinze: yes, Brian Tarricone is writing airconfig
[08:21] <vinze> K
[08:21] <ongardie> vinze: good point. at this point, i bet it is buggier than NM
[08:22] <vinze> How about Wifi-radar?
[08:22] <vinze> http://wifi-radar.systemimager.org/
[08:22] <vinze> Though it doesn't look that user-friendly
[08:22] <j1mc> ongardie: i like how it is an xfce project, but there isn't even a release for it yet.  very bleeding edge.
[08:23] <Mithrandir> why not just write a gtk-only, xfce NM applet?  It shouldn't be that hard.
[08:23] <vinze> ongardie thinks it's buggy
[08:23] <vinze> I don't have that much experience
[08:23] <ongardie> it's not the front-end that i have a problem with
[08:23] <j1mc> ongardie: nm-applet hasn't given me any trouble.
[08:23] <vinze> It just doesn't work for you or something?
[08:24] <vinze> Because you could be an exception
[08:24] <ongardie> maybe it's just me and the people i've talked to
[08:24] <vinze> How many are they?
[08:25] <ongardie> me, my bro, the entirety of #xfce-dev
[08:25] <ongardie> and a couple guys from #ubuntu-houston, iirc
[08:25] <ongardie> but i think a better idea is to search the forums for problems
[08:26] <ongardie> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=hDV&q=networkmanager+problems+site%3Aubuntuforums.org&btnG=Search
[08:26] <nixternal> someone said my name? :)
[08:26] <vinze> Only 163 threads
[08:26] <Mithrandir> ongardie: that seems to just be the suspend/resume problem which we now have a fix for.
[08:27] <j1mc> nixternal: just referenced you in that you would be available to help freddie and i with docs
[08:27] <nixternal> roger
[08:27] <maxamillion> i think wifi-radar would be stellar if it offered some sort of wpa support
[08:27] <vinze> wifi-radar supports wpa
[08:28] <maxamillion> vinze: uh, it does?
[08:28] <vinze> At least, you have a WPA option
[08:29] <ongardie> maxamillion: see the web site, 2nd screenshot. there is something about WPA
[08:29] <vinze> But it doesn't depend on wpasupplicant...
[08:29] <maxamillion> vinze: right, but click on the WPA option, just asks for what will supply the wpa functionality
[08:29] <j1mc> vinze: yeah... having to identify what driver to use for wpa isn't so good.
[08:29] <j1mc> for the end-user, anyway.
[08:30] <vinze> Ah, that sucks
[08:30] <vinze> You need to tell explicitly which driver you'd need
[08:30] <ongardie> quick question: in xubuntu feisty, what tools are there?
[08:30] <vinze> Tools?
[08:30] <maxamillion> the advanced user who wants to use something other than a pre-select will do so if there is a pre select or not
[08:30] <ongardie> for managing the network connections
[08:30] <vinze> network-admin
[08:31] <vinze> And a panel plugin
[08:31] <ongardie> vinze: gnome's network-admin?
[08:31] <vinze> Yeah but with gnome dependencies removed
[08:31] <ongardie> i see
[08:31] <maxamillion> vinze: what planel plugin?
[08:32] <ongardie> maxamillion: will one driver work for everyone?
[08:32] <vinze> "Network Monitor"
[08:32] <vinze> maxamillion, but that's just seeing if it's active
[08:32] <ongardie> vinze: "Network Monitor" doesn't let you configure anything though
[08:32] <ongardie> right
[08:32] <vinze> No no configuration
[08:32] <j1mc> i like the idea of using airconfig, but don't think it's ready.  in it's absence, i think it would be best to use nm-applet, and see if someone can remove the gnome-deps.
[08:32] <maxamillion> ongardie: probably not, but we could pre-select the best supported
[08:33] <maxamillion> ongardie: and then make a reference to alternatives in the docs
[08:33] <j1mc> someone == jani  :)  ??
[08:33] <vinze> maxamillion, best supported, wouldn't that mean "works for about 10%"?
[08:33] <vinze> I think once Gutsy there we'll still be using network-admin... ;-)
[08:34] <j1mc> i think it would be worthwhile for us to install airconfig onto our test systems, and report bugs up through the xfce-bugzilla, too.
[08:34] <maxamillion> vinze: not entirely .... a wpa driver to my knowledge is just software and shouldn't matter what wifi card people have
[08:34] <vinze> maxamillion, ah, OK
[08:34] <maxamillion> j1mc: i will work on that with my laptop from work ... hopefully we can help along the airconfig project to be stable asap
[08:35] <j1mc> cool, maxamillion.  i'll do the same.
[08:35] <ongardie> we certainly can't depend on airconfig stabilizing and being perfect before gutsy, though
[08:35] <vinze> No I don't think so too
[08:35] <j1mc> i think that nm-applet probably our second-best optiont, though.
[08:36] <maxamillion> ongardie: no, of course not ... this is more of an upstream goal
[08:36] <vinze> And if someone's to remove gnome deps from NM anyway, I guess it'd be a waste to switch to an alternative for Gutsy+1
[08:36] <ongardie> so, realistically then, will it be network-admin, NetworkManager, or wifi-radar for gutsy?
[08:36] <maxamillion> j1mc: but nm-applet is bloated and i think we would get a substantial amount of negative feedback because of its resource intensive nature
[08:37] <vinze> Yeah and it'd be a lot of work, so I guess network-admin
[08:37] <maxamillion> ongardie: more likely than not, yes .... they really seem to be the most capable alternatives
[08:37] <j1mc> maxamillion: maybe, but how many people are connecting via wireless w/ a PII laptop?
[08:37] <ongardie> i do know of someone that was working on an xfce panel plugin that would be a front-end to NetworkManager
[08:37] <vinze> That'd be cool
[08:37] <ongardie> but the xfce devs discouraged him because they all hate networkmanager
[08:37] <ongardie> lol
[08:37] <j1mc> i say we table this for now and continue it on the mailing list...
[08:37] <maxamillion> j1mc: just because they aren't connecting wireless doesn't mean nm-applet isn't running on thier system and eating resources
[08:38] <maxamillion> ok
[08:38] <vinze> So... On to games?
[08:38] <maxamillion> i assume so
[08:38] <j1mc> we have 20 minutes left... :)
[08:38] <maxamillion> pySol has my vote!
[08:39] <vinze> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Feisty/xubuntu-gaming
[08:39] <vinze> I don't really like that "Shooters" list ;)
[08:39] <vinze> Shipping Nexuiz just doesn't sound like a good idea :P
[08:40] <maxamillion> vinze: no no, these were just ideas thrown out on the mailing list
[08:40] <maxamillion> wb somerville32
[08:40] <vinze> Hey Cody
[08:40] <ongardie> is the idea to create something like gnome-games?
[08:41] <maxamillion> i think Xjump, pySol, SuperTux, and FrozenBubble would make a solid game set
[08:41] <maxamillion> ongardie: no, i think its just to include a set of games for xubuntu users to enjoy
[08:41] <vinze> I think we should go for some Puzzle, Arcade and Board/Card games
[08:41] <maxamillion> ongardie: just make a meta package called "xubuntu-games" that will pull the agreed upon set of games
[08:41] <ongardie> maxamillion: unfortunately, supertux-data is 53 megs
[08:42] <vinze> Too bad
[08:42] <vinze> Supertux is cool
[08:42] <ongardie> yeah, i like supertux too :(
[08:42] <Burgundavia> I would stick with non-fullscreen stuff, from a marketing and branding perspective
[08:42] <vinze> Agreef
[08:42] <vinze> *Agreed
[08:42] <TheSheep> I don't really think the xubuntu's target audience would need games other than the ones they install themselves...
[08:42] <maxamillion> ongardie: ah, didn't know that
[08:43] <vinze> Who's Xubuntu's target audience?
[08:43] <TheSheep> vinze: they guys that come to #xubuntu :)
[08:43] <TheSheep> and gals
[08:43] <maxamillion> TheSheep: i think something like pySol would be nice though .... everyone needs a little solitare :)
[08:43] <vinze> TheSheep,  Oh, no wonder there's no Xubuntu option at ShipIt... :P
[08:44] <TheSheep> vinze: yes
[08:44] <vinze> maxamillion, I think so too
[08:44] <vinze> I recall aisleriot was cool, had loads of card games :P
[08:44] <vinze> But just Solitaire'll do too
[08:44] <j1mc> would a meta-package that is not included in the default install work?
[08:45] <ongardie> gtk 1.x?
[08:45] <maxamillion> j1mc: it would be included into the install
[08:45] <maxamillion> ongardie: i believe so, yes ... :/
[08:45] <vinze> Then I don't think it's an option...
[08:46] <maxamillion> fair enough
[08:46] <vinze> checking for X... no
[08:46] <vinze> configure: error: X Window system libraries and header files are required
[08:46] <ongardie> (the latest version of pysol is from 2003)
[08:46] <vinze> O wait...
[08:47] <maxamillion> heh ... we could always throw in gtetrinet :P
[08:47] <vinze> http://linuxappfinder.com/games/cards
[08:47] <j1mc> if it's ok... maybe we could set up a wiki page like we did with artwork, where people could list the details of each game they'd like to be included, and we could vote.
[08:47] <j1mc> it's a low priority, imho
[08:47] <ongardie> j1mc: that sounds like a good plan to me
[08:47] <vinze> +1
[08:47] <maxamillion> k
[08:48] <j1mc> maxamillion: would you like to do that?
[08:48] <j1mc> or, would someone else like to set it up, at least the initial stuff?
[08:49] <maxamillion> it just seems like everytime we try to organize people around the idea of the games topic it ends in chaos and cody and i sort through the remains (which is where the current wiki page came from)
[08:49] <j1mc> oh, sorry maxamillion ...
[08:49] <j1mc> guess i didn't see/consider the current games spec wiki
[08:49] <somerville32> Jani made a comment on the lp spec page.
[08:50] <vinze> *5 minutes for notification-daemon and smb*
[08:50] <vinze> But who would be removing gnome-games' gnome-deps?
[08:51] <maxamillion> i dunno ... the whole games idea might just deserve to be trashed, i think we should focus more on smb support and not bother with games .... we don't want to spread our already limited resources (in terms of man-power) too thin
[08:51] <somerville32> vinze: I would be interested in doing that
[08:51] <vinze> somerville32, that'd be really awesome
[08:51] <vinze> Doesn't that solve our problem?
[08:51] <ongardie> what's the notification daemon idea?
[08:52] <vinze> To include it?
[08:52] <vinze> Who added it?
[08:52] <gpocentek> notification-daemon is already a dep of xubuntu-desktop
[08:52] <vinze> Is it?
[08:52] <mr_pouit> ^^
[08:52] <vinze> It wasn't installed for me
[08:52] <vinze> But I went with a Herd
[08:53] <ongardie> gpocentek: it's under Recommends, actually
[08:53] <somerville32> gpocentek, So you can use libnotify and what not to get those pop-ups?
[08:53] <gpocentek> ongardie: yes, but installed with a fresh install
[08:53] <TheSheep> there is also the xfce-notification-daemon
[08:53] <TheSheep> which doesn;t depend on gconf
[08:53] <ongardie> TheSheep: is it packaged?
[08:53] <gpocentek> we use gconf anyway, and don't want duplication
[08:54] <vinze> I think we should go with the original one
[08:54] <vinze> As Jani said, the deps are few and it's already packaged and maintained
[08:54] <TheSheep> vinze: otiginal gnome or original xfce? ;)
[08:54] <vinze> TheSheep, gnome
[08:55] <vinze> So will it be moved to "Depends" for Gutsy?
[08:55] <maxamillion> nothing like an xfce based distro sticking with gnome alternatives when a xfce solution exists ....
[08:55] <vinze> Well, if it's not packages
[08:55] <ongardie> i'd like to see notification-daemon-xfce at least packaged
[08:55] <vinze> And if we already use the gnome deps it has
[08:55] <gpocentek> ongardie: go ahead, package it
[08:56] <maxamillion> ongardie: we will get together later about that, i might package it sometime this week
[08:56] <TheSheep> I think it's not packaged because it din't compile at some point with recent tools
[08:56] <ongardie> gpocentek: i'd be happy to package that (and the places plugin)
[08:56] <gpocentek> places-plugin is in NEW already
[08:56] <mr_pouit> places-lugin is already in new
[08:56] <mr_pouit> *g*
[08:56] <ongardie> gpocentek: i just don't know how
[08:56] <ongardie> what's NEW?
[08:56] <gpocentek> mr_pouit: you're really slow tonight :p
[08:56] <maxamillion> ongardie: isn't the places plugin auto-packaged in the xfce-goodies package now?
[08:57] <ongardie> maxamillion: isn't xfce-goodies just a metapackage?
[08:57] <vinze> What's the places plugin?
[08:57] <ongardie> vinze: like gnome's places menu. i'm the author
[08:57] <maxamillion> ongardie: uhmmm.... actually, it might be now that you mention it
[08:57] <vinze> Nice
[08:57] <vinze> :P
[08:58] <TheSheep> ongardie: I love you!
[08:58] <ongardie> TheSheep: haha, <3
[08:58] <j1mc> 2 minutes to discuss smb shares.  no problem  :)
[08:58] <vinze> Where do I get it?
[08:58] <ongardie> vinze: http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/panel-plugins/xfce4-places-plugin
[08:59] <maxamillion> ongardie: yeah, appears to be a meta package
[08:59] <ongardie> do we really just have 2 minutes left?
[08:59] <maxamillion> j1mc: we have all day in xubuntu-devel :)
[08:59] <j1mc> maxamillion: right.  :)
[08:59] <vinze> ongardie, is it packaged somewhere?
[08:59] <ongardie> vinze: gpocentek just said it is in NEW, but i don't know what that means
[08:59] <vinze> Me neither
[09:00] <ongardie> should we move the meeting #xubuntu-devel?
[09:00] <maxamillion> yes, i believe so
[09:00] <ongardie> will anyone be using this channel anyway?
[09:00] <vinze> Who keeps the logs?
[09:00] <gpocentek> ongardie: packaged and waiting to be approved by an archive admin
[09:00] <mr_pouit> in new = needs to be approved by an archive admin
[09:00] <ongardie> mr_pouit: ty
[09:00] <ongardie> gpocentek: ty too, heh
[09:00] <gpocentek> :)
[09:01] <vinze> Is there noone keeping the logs?
[09:01] <ongardie> i think we have 2 days until there's another meeting in here. we're probably OK to stay
[09:01] <somerville32> We can continue to chat here if there isn't a meeting scheduled.
[09:01] <vinze> O OK
[09:01] <vinze> Let's stay
[09:02] <ongardie> vinze: (i log everything personally)
[09:02] <vinze> Have we agreed on something concerning notification daemon?
[09:02] <vinze> ongardie, OK
[09:02] <ongardie> maxamillion: so you're willing to help me with packaging notification-daemon-xfce?
[09:03] <vinze> I'm still planning on learning packaging, is there any app that has priority that I could get my hands on?
[09:03] <somerville32> Everything is important :] 
[09:04] <vinze> Random suggestion?
[09:04] <maxamillion> ongardie: sure
[09:04] <ongardie> maxamillion: ok, then how can we get it in the repos?
[09:04] <maxamillion> ongardie: we will have to ask for a sponsor to post it, i will contact jani about that because i think it needs to be in main and only core-devs have access to main
[09:05] <ongardie> k
[09:05] <ongardie> moving on?
[09:05] <vinze> Think so
[09:05] <vinze> Network Shares
[09:05] <gpocentek> xfce-n-d won't get into main IMO
[09:05] <gpocentek> there's no reason to have it along with n-d
[09:06] <ongardie> why would it need to go in main?
[09:07] <gpocentek> to be part of xubuntu-desktop it needs to be in main
[09:07] <ongardie> oh, that's not necessarily my goal
[09:07] <ongardie> i just think it should be packaged
[09:07] <maxamillion> ongardie: its not?
[09:07] <maxamillion> ongardie: oh...
[09:07] <gpocentek> ok :)
[09:07] <gpocentek>  /me away, see you
[09:07] <vinze> What's the reason you want xfce-n-d?
[09:07] <vinze> Bye
[09:08] <ongardie> vinze: because 1) someone took the time to write it, and 2) maybe it'll respect xfwm4's margins
[09:08] <vinze> Doesn't the normal n-d do that?
[09:09] <maxamillion> ongardie: why not attempt to get it into xubuntu-desktop though? ... if we are going to go through the trouble of packaging it, why not try and make sure someone actually uses it?
[09:09] <ongardie> maxamillion: i've never even used it, i can't argue for that now
[09:09] <ongardie> vinze: shrug
[09:09] <maxamillion> ahhhh, makes sense
[09:09] <maxamillion> can't endorse something blindly, i can understand that
[09:10] <maxamillion> ongardie: well, we can package it and use it and see if it would be worth our time
[09:10] <vinze> Laters
[09:10] <maxamillion> laters vinze
[09:10] <ongardie> maybe i'm underestimating how hard it'll be to package it, though
[09:11] <maxamillion> ongardie: packaging isn't generally hard, just time consuming ... but i am not familiar with xfce-n-d so we will have to look into it further, it might end up being a pain
[09:11] <TheSheep> ongardie: last time I looked it required patching of the makefile
[09:11] <maxamillion> ah yes ... possible pain
[09:11] <TheSheep> maxamillion: it's similar to n-d, really, only has the xfce-like settings dialog and looks a little more square
[09:12] <TheSheep> maxamillion: the n-d requires you to mess with gconf to configure it
[09:12] <maxamillion> gconf fails at life
[09:12] <ongardie> haha
[09:12] <j1mc> hehe
[09:12] <TheSheep> maxamillion: and makes gconf run in the background
[09:12] <maxamillion> reminds me too much of ms windows registry
[09:12] <j1mc> maxamillion: yeah...
[09:13] <maxamillion> ok, on the smb
[09:13] <maxamillion> on to*
[09:13] <TheSheep> if you don't run gaim and n-d, you don't need gconf running in xubuntu, as of today
[09:13] <maxamillion> lol
[09:14] <somerville32> j1mc: Cell phone :(
[09:14] <somerville32> And he has been talking to me for over an hour
[09:14] <maxamillion> TheSheep: interesting .... if i could only get my jabber portal to work right i could ditch gaim/pidgin all together
[09:14] <j1mc> and battery
[09:14] <maxamillion> :P
[09:14] <somerville32> lol
[09:14] <ongardie> really onto SMB?
[09:14] <somerville32> k
[09:15] <ongardie> what's the idea with SMB?
[09:15] <somerville32> We need a browser :] 
[09:15] <TheSheep> fuse?
[09:15] <ongardie> the #xfce-dev guys seem to think fuse is the right idea
[09:15] <TheSheep> why not just mount a fusesmb directory in media by default?
[09:15] <maxamillion> i would actually like to write a smb plugin for thunar, but i don't think that is going to be something to just be thrown together for the release ... i think it will take some planning
[09:16] <ongardie> TheSheep: what can you do with a fusesmb directory?
[09:16] <maxamillion> TheSheep: not a bad idea, and just have the directory populated as smb shares are browsed?
[09:17] <ongardie> "It works like smbfs, but instead of accessing one share at a time, all computers and workgroups are accessible at once from a single filesystem mount, making network browsing just as easy as it is on Windows."
[09:17] <j1mc> i wish i had it in front of me, but i know that there were other options other than fusesmb that were mentioned during ubuntu open week.
[09:17] <ongardie> has anyone here used fusesmb?
[09:17] <maxamillion> i have
[09:18] <maxamillion> it wasn't entirely a plesant experience
[09:18] <ongardie> what was the issue?
[09:18] <maxamillion> but i think we could remedy that with a front end or otherwise
[09:18] <maxamillion> ongardie: just not very user friendly
[09:19] <j1mc> also, it may have been how i configured samba, but accessing password protected smb shares wasn't possible through fusesmb.
[09:19] <ongardie> i wonder why fusesmb hasn't had a release for the last year
[09:19] <maxamillion> j1mc: that was the issue i was having as well
[09:19] <j1mc> i'm not a total expert, so don't take that as law or anything, though.
[09:20] <maxamillion> j1mc: i could access the smb share i made on a spare machine in the office to test it, but i couldn't access the password protected share on the production server
[09:20] <maxamillion> ongardie: that'a good question
[09:21] <j1mc> what about gvfs?
[09:21] <j1mc> don't know much about it, but it was mentioned during ubuntu open week.
[09:22] <ongardie> is SMB really the only issue? maybe we should go one step higher and have a front-end to manage any fuse filesystem?
[09:22] <j1mc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/xubuntu  (search for gvfs)
[09:42] <maxamillion> ongardie: it could be an interesting project
[09:42] <ongardie> would gvfs require applications to do anything?
[09:42] <TheSheep> ongardie: isn't it just an alternative to gnome-vfs
[09:42] <ongardie> TheSheep: this is the first i've heard of it, i'm reading a bit now
[09:42] <maxamillion> TheSheep: i think it is going to replace gnome-vfs ... it appears it was a topic of conversation at a recent gnome-con
[09:42] <ongardie> but if we need to modify all applications, there's no f'in way
[09:42] <j1mc> ongardie: hehe
[09:42] <ongardie> (and then there's openoffice, etc)
[09:42] <j1mc> i don't know much about it, either.
[09:42] <maxamillion> TheSheep: errr... actually, it will be talked about at guadec in 3 weeks
[09:42] <maxamillion> TheSheep: http://guadec.org/node/520
[09:42] <j1mc> it got mentioned by at least two people during ubuntu open week - even in refernce to xubuntu, so it would be worth researching.
[09:42] <maxamillion> it appears there would be needed modification per application, at least that is the impression i am getting from it all
[09:42] <j1mc> http://www.nabble.com/gnomevfs-homepage-t3248187.html  hehe
[09:42] <j1mc> "and noticed that
[09:42] <j1mc> gnomevfs has no homepage. I belive it should have atleas a simple one..."
[09:42] <maxamillion> lol
[09:42] <ongardie> what i like about fuse: 1) i'm assuming it's stable by now, 2) the apps don't need to know about it, 3) FUSE works with tons of "filesystems"
[09:42] <TheSheep> it would be nice to have a simple program or panel plugin that would take an url and mount it as apropriate fuse filesystem :)
[09:42] <mjg59> The model is that gvfs will functionally replace gnome-vfs and continue to support functionality that's difficult with pure posix (like async i/o). There'll be a fuse module layered on top of it in order to allow non-gvfs aware applications to use the same filenames.
[09:42] <TheSheep> maxamillion: so it's fuse anyways
[09:42] <j1mc> pyneighborhood?
[09:42] <j1mc> mjg59: thanks...
[09:42] <TheSheep> j1mc: ah, right
[09:42] <mjg59> The problem with purely using fuse is that you have difficulty dealing with certain filesystem types (like network filesystems)
[09:42] <ongardie> mjg59: wasn't fuse largely designed for network filesystems?
[09:42] <mjg59> ongardie: Yes, it's fine from the filesystem perspective, but it's difficult from a usable application perspective
[09:42] <TheSheep> ongardie: but the apps will not know it's a network filesystem, and, for example, generate thumbnails for moves
[09:42] <TheSheep> movies
[09:42] <TheSheep> ongardie: which isn't such a good idea imho...
[09:42] <ongardie> TheSheep: perhaps we can modify Thunar to not do that
[09:42] <mjg59> You don't want an application to block just because you're having to suck this file in from the network
[09:42] <TheSheep> somerville32: put the phone in a fish tank :)
[09:42] <mjg59> So you need some way of doing async i/o
[09:42] <ongardie> mjg59: i'll have to read more about that
[09:42] <ongardie> in any case, gvfs doesn't sound like its ready
[09:42] <j1mc> all, i have to go...  :(
[09:42] <ranf> bye j1mc
[09:42] <maxamillion> laters j1mc
[09:42] <j1mc> thanks for all of your help.  i'll be in touch soon.
[09:42] <ongardie> j1mc: peace
[09:42] <ongardie> doh!
[09:42] <maxamillion> i think the real question is, do we really want to put together a large scale development project using fuse if in the end it has i/o issues anyways and becomes un-usable?
[09:42] <ongardie> maxamillion: no, i wouldn't think so
[09:42] <TheSheep> maxamillion: large scale?
[09:42] <ongardie> maxamillion: the project could be fairly contained, but I/O issues would be a showstopper
[09:42] <TheSheep> we need a networked filesystem with discovery, it doesn't have to be samba, but people come and ask "how do I open network?"
[09:42] <TheSheep> it could as well be zeroconf+scp :)
[09:42] <maxamillion> TheSheep: well ... i would think making something capable of mounting many different filesystems would be dificult, but then again i am not entirely familiar with all of fuse's capabilities
[09:42] <TheSheep> there is an avahi browser
[09:42] <TheSheep> maxamillion: fuse gives you a standard interface to all of them, basically
[09:42] <maxamillion> TheSheep: oh ... ok
[09:42] <maxamillion> TheSheep: yeah, then i guess that wouldn't be too terribly hard
[09:42] <maxamillion> TheSheep: are you familiar with the "mount devices" plugin for xfce?
[09:42] <ongardie> maxamillion: doesn't it require you modify /etc/fstab?
[09:45] (ongardie/#ubuntu-meeting) i think we're probably capable of writing a FUSE front-end. as maxamillion was saying, though, it wouldn't be worth it if there are I/O issues
[09:47] <ongardie> maxamillion: i wonder if thunar plugins use thunarx: http://www.xfce.org/documentation/4.4/api/thunarx/
[09:47] <maxamillion> yeah ... i think we would need to first look into if the i/o issues would really create a problem and if so, is there any way to get around the problems
[09:47] <TheSheep> ongardie: once gvfs is in place, we can just replace it
[09:47] <maxamillion> ongardie: hmmm...
[09:47] <maxamillion> TheSheep: true
[09:47] <TheSheep> on still use fuse+gvfs for the other applications
[09:48] <maxamillion> brb
[09:48] <ongardie> this is starting to sound like a plan
[09:49] <ongardie> maxamillion: yes, at least the media tags plugin uses thunarx
[09:50] <ongardie> mjg59: do you know of any pages with information about the async I/O stuff?
[09:52] <mjg59> http://developer.gnome.org/doc/API/gnome-vfs/gnome-vfs-gnome-vfs-module-callback.html covers the API
[09:54] <ongardie> mjg59: that's not quite what i was looking for. i meant conceptually
[09:54] <maxamillion> ongardie: this really sounds like something i would be interested in helping with development if it is decided to be done, but for now i need to go ... i will probably be back later
[09:54] <ongardie> we're losing a lot of people
[09:54] <maxamillion> :(
[09:54] <maxamillion> well ... we are an hour past the meeting time
[09:54] <ongardie> should we just continue this on the mailing list?
[09:54] <maxamillion> probably should
[09:54] <mjg59> ongardie: I'm not really sure what you mean
[09:55] <maxamillion> i need to go, have to go take care of some stuff ... i am about to move in 5 days
[09:55] <maxamillion> laters
[09:56] <ongardie> mjg59: "You don't want an application to block just because you're having to suck this file in from the network"
[09:56] <ongardie> with async I/O, would the app instead show a progress bar?
[09:56] <mjg59> ongardie: For instance
[09:59] <ongardie> mjg59: is it a problem even with small files?
[09:59] <mjg59> It really depends on the nature of the application and the filesystem
[10:00] <ongardie> i see
[10:02] <somerville32> Interesting.
[10:02] <ongardie> i don't know who is left here, but shall we conclude?
[10:03] <ongardie> somerville32: yes?
[10:03] <somerville32> What is the consensus?
[10:03] <TheSheep> um...
[10:03] <ongardie> to continue the discussion on the mailing list, i think
[10:04] <ongardie> i'd like to actually use FUSE for a while to get a feel for the issues mjg59 was referring to
[10:04] <ongardie> but between maxamillion and i (and did i see some interest from TheSheep?), we might want to write a FUSE front-end
[10:05] <ongardie> (and i think it'd be quite welcome in the xfce goodies)
[10:06] <ongardie> is this the end?
[10:07] <TheSheep> somerville32: ?
[10:07] <somerville32> This is only the beginning, my friends ;] 
[10:07] <ongardie> heh
[10:07] <ongardie> peace
[10:07] <TheSheep> somerville32: comrades
[10:07] <somerville32> Yes.