[12:15] <crimsun> yes, helpztags is preferable
[12:18] <crimsun> oops, queue processing time.
[12:19] <jrib> crimsun: thanks I'll file a bug and include that
[12:20] <wolfeon> stupid me and the libfam supplied by gamin
[12:33] <TheMuso> crimsun: If you have a minute, could you please upload the new package, found in bug 115789? Thanks.
[12:33] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 115789 in espeak "Please upload new espeak package." [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/115789
[12:34] <crimsun> TheMuso: sure, queued.  Processing bugs.LP/~u-u-s ATM.
[12:34] <TheMuso> crimsun: Ok. I'm just updating chroots, so I'll join you in a bit.
[12:37] <pgquiles> if anybody is bored, please take a few minutes to review libtomcrypt (http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5231). Thank you.
[12:50] <TheMuso> crimsun: Have you  touched proftpd yet?
[12:50] <crimsun> TheMuso: nope.
[12:50] <TheMuso> Ok.
[12:50] <crimsun> I just processed om
[12:51] <Nafallo> /exec touch proftpd ;-)
[12:58] <crimsun> welshbyte: in the future, please be careful WRT discarding previous Ubuntu debian/changelog entries.
[01:00] <crimsun> LOCK quodlibet
[01:01] <crimsun> TheMuso: presuming you've LOCKed proftpd
[01:01] <welshbyte> crimsun: oh yeah... sorry :/
[01:01] <TheMuso> crimsun: Yes.
[01:01] <Nafallo> ehrm. new commands for some bot? :-P
[01:01] <TheMuso> heh
[01:02] <welshbyte> sigh, i'm learning, i'm learning
[01:04] <crimsun> Nafallo: just easier to mimick the old Hoary-style concurrent workflow since both TheMuso and I are processing u-u-s merges
[01:04] <geser> TheMuso: yes, I assign a bug to me and set it as In Progress when I'm reviewing/sponsoring a merge
[01:04] <crimsun> UNLOCK quodlibet
[01:04] <Hobbsee> yay, more u-u-s stuff being done
[01:04] <TheMuso> geser: Yeah, I think I'm going to start doing that from now on.
[01:04] <Hobbsee> StevenK, myself, and persia killed about 50 on saturday night
[01:05] <TheMuso> So I saw.
[01:05] <Hobbsee> :)
[01:05] <Nafallo> crimsun: ah. we should have a bot :-P
[01:06] <crimsun> ok, u-u-s queue cleared.
[01:06] <shawarma> We can't see new source packages anywhere, can we? Before they're ACCEPTed, I mean.
[01:06] <Hobbsee> shawarma: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/+queue
[01:06] <Hobbsee> crimsun: yay!
[01:07] <crimsun> ok, Novell, go ahead and release ALSA 1.0.14 already.
[01:07] <shawarma> Hobbsee: Hmm. Thanks. That's odd, though.
[01:07] <crimsun> you're only holding up my main merges!
[01:07] <shawarma> Hobbsee: I was sure I looked there already.
[01:08] <ajmitch> though I should just upload
[01:08] <geser> Hobbsee: doesn't the u-u-s ml send the mails generated by me back to me?
[01:08] <TheMuso> geser: No.
[01:08] <TheMuso> I've found that it doesn't.
[01:08] <TheMuso> I think its the way we were subscribed.
[01:09] <Hobbsee> geser: mails generated from you meaning what?
[01:09] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: For example, if you update a bug for uus, you don't see your change on the ml.
[01:09] <TheMuso> i.e you don't receive a mail showing you what you have done.
[01:10] <geser> I see the changes from everybody else but not my own
[01:10] <TheMuso> geser: Same here.
[01:11] <geser> I get your mails on the ml and I guess you get my mails
[01:12] <crimsun> TheMuso: proftpd has hit -changes
[01:12] <geser> I assume the ml is set to not send back mails to the author
[01:12] <TheMuso> crimsun: Yeah I know, just got the mail.
[01:12] <crimsun> err, proftpd-dfsg
[01:12] <crimsun> still not used to that rename
[01:12] <TheMuso> geser: I suspect we could change that in our subscription options.
[01:14] <geser> checking now
[01:14] <TheMuso> digitaldj
[01:15] <shawarma> If I've discovered an error in a package that's in source NEW, what do I do? a) Upload a new one with the same revision and pretend like nothing happend, b) upload a new one with a new revision, and pretend like nothing happened, or c) poke an archive-admin to remove the old upload and upload a new one with the same revision?
[01:15] <geser> TheMuso: it's a per-user option, I changed it now for my subscription
[01:16] <TheMuso> geser: Yeah I thought as much.
[01:17] <Hobbsee> shawarma: i believe a) but it may be a good idea to mentoin it to the archive admins
[01:18] <shawarma> Hobbsee: I'll do that then. Thanks.
[01:19] <ajmitch> though it is worrying that a package would need fixed in source NEW, it's not uncommon
[01:19] <crimsun> not surprisingly, those are the precise models covered in a bug report against linux-source-2.6.20 regarding ALSA to which I provided a patch.
[01:20] <ajmitch> heh
[01:20] <ajmitch> maybe they could ship you some test hardware
[01:20] <crimsun> ;)
[01:21] <crimsun> hmm, I may be able to make Ubuntu Live
[01:21] <ajmitch> that'd be good
[01:31] <nixternal> MOTUs!!! Bug 115882 needs a sync if you are around. Thanks!
[01:31] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 115882 in krename "[Sync Request]  Please sync Krename (3.0.14-1) from Debian Unstable (Main)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/115882
[01:32] <Hobbsee> nixternal: done
[01:32] <nixternal> hehe, thanks!
[01:32] <Hobbsee> (pending LP loading)
[01:32] <nixternal> that was quick
[01:32] <Hobbsee> nixternal: i didnt have to look at it
[01:32] <nixternal> you trusted it?
[01:32] <nixternal> that is scary
[01:33] <crimsun> Hobbsee was out-ninja'd.
[01:33] <nixternal> heh
[01:33] <Hobbsee> nixternal: based on the fact that if you screwed up your own changes, when making the debian package, and you're now the debian maintainer, then you're probably trusted to get things right, at least for that package
[01:33] <nixternal> hahaha
[01:33] <crimsun> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/krename/+bug/115882/+activity
[01:33] <crimsun> :)
[01:33] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 115882 in krename "[Sync Request]  Please sync Krename (3.0.14-1) from Debian Unstable (Main)" [Undecided,Confirmed]  
[01:33] <Hobbsee> blerg.  throw that thru the "please-make-sense-izer"
[01:33] <nixternal> woohoo!
[01:33] <Hobbsee> crimsun: you suck.
[01:33] <crimsun> :)
[01:34] <nixternal> you guys are way to fast
[01:34] <nixternal> 1 minute after I hit submit you 2 were all over it
[01:34] <nixternal> we have a term for people like you here in the ghetto..it is called thirsties
[01:34] <ajmitch> nixternal: they are not human
[01:34] <nixternal> oooh, OLPC on 60minutes
[01:34] <nixternal> brb
[01:35] <ajmitch> quite
[01:35] <TheMuso> LOCK labplot :)
[01:35] <Hobbsee> quick, someone else upload labplot!
[01:35] <crimsun> done!
[01:35] <crimsun> ninja'd.
[01:35] <crimsun> (j/k)
[01:37] <nixternal> argh, I missed the end of it
[01:37] <nixternal> the OLPC got the Ubuntu guys laughed at last month at Flourish in Chicago
[01:38] <nixternal> we couldn't figure out how to open the damn thing
[01:38] <nixternal> the Fedora guys are like "what the Ubuntu guys can't figure out"
[01:38] <nixternal> of course one of our smart arses replied "who has 8 million users?"
[01:43] <crimsun> Fujitsu: taking xfig if you don't mind.
[01:45] <welshbyte> meep
[01:48] <ajmitch> is Hobbsee being odd again?
[01:48] <Hobbsee> s/again/still/ ?
[01:49] <welshbyte> that's not odd, i'm used to being lunged at with sharp objects :)
[01:50] <crimsun> is anyone working on the nexuiz merge?
[01:51] <nixternal> I can do it, as I think I did it before didn't I?
[01:51] <welshbyte> apart from me? 
[01:51] <crimsun> no, I meant a u-u-s member
[01:51] <welshbyte> ah ok
[01:51] <crimsun> ...because I'm about to press Enter for dput
[01:51] <welshbyte> yeah, sorry if i step on anyone's feet, i guess i should ask first
[01:51] <crimsun> oh well, too late.
[01:53] <crimsun> mm, empty u-u-s sponsor queue.  me likey.
[01:53] <welshbyte> great stuff 
[01:54] <ajmitch> really empty?
[01:54] <crimsun> ajmitch: merges/syncs, yep.
[01:54] <ajmitch> ah right
[01:54] <ajmitch> I thought you meant all patches submitted
[01:54] <ajmitch> it's a lot smaller though
[01:55] <welshbyte> doesn't that just mean we don't have enough hopefuls working furiously on merges? :)
[01:56] <crimsun> pretty much.
[01:56] <TheMuso> crimsun: The espeak upload was rejected...
[01:56] <crimsun> TheMuso: I didn't process it.
[01:56] <crimsun> I was getting to it, but...
[01:57] <TheMuso> Oh StevenK did it.
[01:57] <TheMuso> ...or atttempted to...
[01:58] <persia> TheMuso: I still wonder about bug 115799: Don't we need to support LTS -> LTS transitions?
[01:58] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 115799 in proftpd-dfsg "Please merge proftpd-dfsg from Debian" [Wishlist,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/115799
[01:59] <persia> TheMuso: (Contrast with https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/dapper/+source/proftpd)
[01:59] <ajmitch> we do
[01:59] <TheMuso> persia: Are we supporting that? If so, we still have time to fix it.
[01:59] <TheMuso> persia: Oh ok.
[01:59] <ajmitch> otherwise it'll bite us next release (if that'll be LTS)
[01:59] <TheMuso> Ok I'll fix it.
[02:00] <crimsun> TheMuso: what was the reject rationale?
[02:00] <TheMuso> Rejected:
[02:00] <TheMuso> Unable to find espeak_1.25.orig.tar.gz in upload or distribution.
[02:00] <TheMuso> Files specified in DSC are broken or missing, skipping package unpack
[02:00] <TheMuso> verification.
[02:00] <TheMuso> crimsun: Yet everything at the URL I gave in the bug is there...
[02:00] <persia> TheMuso: Thanks.  My apologies for failing to unsubscribe when setting to Needs Info.
[02:00] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: did you use -sa?
[02:01] <crimsun> yes, he did.  It's in the _source.changes.
[02:01] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: http://www.themuso.id.au/ubuntu/espeak has both the dsc and changes file with the correct bits there that are neeedd.
[02:01] <Hobbsee> ah right
[02:05] <crimsun> ok, reuploaded.
[02:06] <TheMuso> crimsun: Thanks.
[02:19] <crimsun> something really funk is going on with soyuz.
[02:19] <TheMuso> crimsun: ??
[02:20] <crimsun> TheMuso: you're on the reject recipient list, too, for my espeak upload
[02:20] <TheMuso> Weird.
[02:20] <TheMuso> yet 1.25 is up in LP now.
[02:21] <crimsun> I'm guessing that's steven's upload
[02:21] <TheMuso> crimsun: The accept email was sent to you, and me.
[02:22] <crimsun> weird, I got a reject email :)
[02:22] <TheMuso> crimsun: Now that is weird.
[02:22] <TheMuso> ah sorry, no that was a rejection.
[02:23] <crimsun> ok. :)
[02:23] <TheMuso> yes it was StevenK's upload.
[02:23] <TheMuso> Twas two people uploading the one package. :
[02:23] <TheMuso> :)
[02:24] <TheMuso> Anyways, its up.
[02:24] <TheMuso> StevenK: Thanks.
[02:27] <TheMuso> persia: Well there is what geser does for uus stuff, mark as in progress, assign to him, and set to wishlist.
[02:27] <TheMuso> I am going to start doing that for uus stuff in the future.
[02:29] <persia> TheMuso: I've been doing that as well, but I don't think it's formal yet, and I don't think all UUS does that.  StevenK also suggested that UUS should be unsubscribed whenever a package is being touched, to reduce the queue size (that's how it went from ~130 to ~80 a few days ago).
[02:29] <TheMuso> Right.
[02:30] <Hobbsee> ie, if a specific motu is working on the package, there's no need for it to be on the u-u-s list
[02:30] <Hobbsee> because all the u-u-s list is, is for people to pick stuff up, and upload it if it's sane
[02:31] <TheMuso> So I guess we unsubscribe uus, and subscribe ourselves so we can keep on working on the bug with the person who uploaded the diff.
[02:32] <persia> TheMuso: That's what I've been doing.  For things that need a lot of work, I've also been setting the mentor flag, to provide extra indication that the person working on it should contact me with questions.
[02:32] <Hobbsee> persia: i probably wouldnt bother - just because it creates more mail
[02:32] <TheMuso> We should also discourage the use of the requestsponsor script
[02:32] <Hobbsee> what's wrong with that?
[02:33] <persia> Hobbsee: Thanks.  That's why I mentioned it here.  As we evolve best practices, the queue will naturally shorten :)
[02:33] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: It can't attach debdiffs as attachments.
[02:33] <TheMuso> THe diff is inline.
[02:33] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: ah right, yes.
[02:33] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: i thought it was actually working, for a while
[02:33] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: And it can sometimes be difficult to scrape.
[02:35] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: yep
[02:35] <Nafallo> Fujitsu: are we supporting xgl and mplayer? :-P
[02:35] <Nafallo> Fujitsu: hi btw :-)
[02:37] <welshbyte> interesting, DaD only has 3 merges listed, it was 129 not long ago
[02:37] <Hobbsee> welshbyte: do you trust DAD?
[02:37] <welshbyte> not any more :)
[02:38] <Hobbsee> welshbyte: http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html
[02:38] <Nafallo> you don't trust your dad?
[02:38] <Nafallo> OMG :-P
[02:38] <Hobbsee> seeing as MOM disagrees, i'd suspect that MOM is right
[02:38] <welshbyte> it's in the /topic so it must be right ;)
[02:38] <Nafallo> I'd always trust mom more than dad I guess ;-)
[02:38] <TheMuso> rb
[02:39] <Hobbsee> it may not have the sources, but the author is not evil, and it just works, and has not appeared to have any bugs wiht it.
[02:39] <TheMuso> brb even
[02:39] <Hobbsee> if i cant trust mom, then i cant trust soyuz either.
[02:39] <TheMuso> heh
[02:39] <Hobbsee> + all of launchpad.
[02:41] <welshbyte> for the record, i don't believe the author of MoM or DaD are evil at all, i was just pointing out an anomaly :)
[02:42] <welshbyte> i tend to use MoM but look on DaD for any notes attached to the merges
[02:43] <joejaxx> Hello All
[02:43] <welshbyte> hi joejaxx 
[02:43] <joejaxx> :)
[02:45] <Hobbsee> joejaxx: do all the merges, kthxbye.
[02:45] <joejaxx> Hobbsee: lol
[02:45] <Hobbsee> learn to be?
[02:46] <TheMuso> joejaxx: Its really not that hard.
[02:46] <TheMuso> Its easier than the work you have done for UbuntuStudio.
[02:46] <joejaxx> i do not know about that lol
[02:46] <joejaxx> for some reason things are opposite for me :\
[02:47] <welshbyte> you get the hang of it after a while, and a few tellings off :)
[02:47] <joejaxx> complicated stuff i am good at small things i am not
[02:47] <welshbyte> how about small complicated things? :)
[02:47] <joejaxx> no not a combination of the two :P
[02:48] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: ping?
[02:48] <crimsun> hmm.  So Joe is an ideal candidate for TeX, then. Awesome.
[02:48] <crimsun> Hey Joe, ould you like ALSA while you're at TeX?
[02:49] <joejaxx> lol
[02:49] <Hobbsee> hah
[02:49] <Hobbsee> dream on, you're not going to get rid of alsa
[02:49] <joejaxx> :P
[02:49] <crimsun> c'mon, it's FUN!  All the cool kids are avoiding it!
[02:49] <joejaxx> haha
[02:49] <TheMuso> If I were a better coder, I'd remotely consider alsa...
[02:50] <crimsun> pfft.
[02:52] <Hobbsee> to spite you
[02:52] <TheMuso> heh
[02:59] <ajmitch> crimsun: I can't imagine why people are avoiding alsa
[02:59] <ajmitch> I mean, sound can't be that hard, right?
[03:00] <Nafallo> ofcourse it can...
[03:00] <Nafallo> hardcore, gabber, psychedelic death metal etc... :-)
[03:04] <welshbyte> get jono to do it ;)
[03:04] <Nafallo> that's NOT hard :-)
[03:06] <welshbyte> ok ok :)
[03:07] <TheMuso> Gotta love having to re-add changelog entries when doing a merge.
[03:07] <Hobbsee> !logs
[03:07] <ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[03:09] <persia> TheMuso: I usually apply the changelog part of the last merge patch: then it's only one entry to be added manually :)
[03:09] <TheMuso> persia: But changelog entries were missing from previous merges. They were dropped somehow, and I had to put them back in.
[03:10] <TheMuso> It started when I was trying to find information as to why a change was made.
[03:10] <persia> TheMuso: Ouch!
[03:11] <TheMuso> persia: Yeah.
[03:30] <RAOF> Right.  Democracyplayer merge (bug #115553) is up for any u-u-s who are searching around for something to do :)
[03:30] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 115553 in democracyplayer "[Merge] Merge democracyplayer 0.9.5.3-1 from Debain unstable" [Undecided,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/115553
[03:32] <TheMuso> RAOF: Let me test build/upload a merge, and I'll take a look.
[03:32] <Hobbsee> RAOF: how confident are you about it?
[03:34] <RAOF> Hobbsee: It works for me, but so did the previous version :).  I haven't built a i386 version, and that was where the problems were.
[03:34] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: id' just upload it, if RAOF thinks it's right
[03:35] <Hobbsee> it's got enough breakage that on the balance of probability, a bit of possible breakage will merely be a blip on the radar
[03:35] <RAOF> Unless you've got an i386 system lying around!  I'd like to see whether or not it actually works on i386 :)
[03:36] <RAOF> On the other hand, Hobbsee is right.  No one on i386 will notice if it *still* doesn't work :)
[03:37] <TheMuso> RAOF: How do you produce the problems? I have i386 here, and could probably test.
[03:37] <RAOF> TheMuso: You try to run it, and it doesn't work, IIRC.
[03:38] <RAOF> Other options include: you try to play a video in it, and it crashes, or you try to play a video in it, and it doesn't have sound.
[03:38] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: Feel free to upload if you want something to do. Stil working on a merge here.
[03:38] <Hobbsee> i'm attempting to find sutff here.
[03:38] <TheMuso> Ok.
[03:42] <superm1> Hobbsee, could I bugger you to look over a package on revu?
[03:43] <Hobbsee> superm1: nope
[03:43] <superm1> :(, k
[03:43] <Hobbsee> (sorry)
[03:43] <Nafallo> ah
[03:43] <Nafallo> democracy. not m :-)
[03:44] <RAOF> Indeed.  Mplayer *works*, AFAIK :)
[03:45] <Nafallo> "works" ;-)
[03:45] <Nafallo> current package defaults to libmad AFAIK :-P
[03:45] <RAOF> At least it doesn't use non-public, deprecated DBUS api, some of which has been actually removed.  And what's wrong with libmad?
[03:46] <Nafallo> it lags :-)
[03:46] <Nafallo> often behind :-)
[03:47] <TheMuso> What the hell could make libkeyutils-dev be a build dep? Espeak doesn't even use it
[03:47] <TheMuso> espeak has hit dep wait, due to libkeyutils-dev being in universe...
[03:54] <sid> Anyone else here on feisty and can do "apt-get build-dep gnash" and tell me if they get this error "E: Build-dependencies for gnash could not be satisfied." ?
[03:54] <Nafallo> sure. w8
[03:56] <Nafallo> sid: indeed
[03:56] <sid> Nafallo: You want to file a bug? And do you know a fix? it's not very verbose, it doesn't tell me which particular package it can't satisfy
[03:56] <Nafallo> sid: no on both questions.
[03:57] <Hobbsee> sid: what dep does it fail on?
[03:57] <Hobbsee> er, b-d
[03:57] <sid> Hobbsee: no idea, try the command. it doesn't say.
[03:57] <mwolson> FTR, i've opened a bug at https://develop.participatoryculture.org/trac/democracy/ticket/7118 which has a list of the patches needed for compilation of democracyplayer on gutsy
[03:57] <Hobbsee> it doesnt s ay earlier either?
[03:57] <Hobbsee> RAOF: ^
[03:57] <sid> Hobbsee: http://rafb.net/p/OZqYGY21.html
[03:58] <Hobbsee> sid: hmm.  who knows
[03:58] <sid> the gnash maintainer?
[03:58] <mwolson> (for democracyplayer 0.96rc0, though, rather than 0.95.1)
[03:58] <RAOF> mwolson: Thanks, I was going to do that.
[03:58] <sid> little_miry@yahoo.es
[03:59] <Hobbsee> ah right
[03:59] <Nafallo> nice
[03:59] <Hobbsee> oh, an upstream bug.  gotcha.
[03:59] <Nafallo> didn't knew she cared for gnash :-)
[03:59] <mwolson> the thing still freezes up just after showing its GUI, though :^(
[03:59] <sid> Mariam Ruiz?
[03:59] <sid> Anyone know her irc?
[03:59] <TheMuso> mwolson: What architecture?
[04:00] <mwolson> TheMuso: i386 (Intel Core Duo 1)
[04:00] <RAOF> mwolson: If you're running AMD64, my 0.9.5.3 merge works :)
[04:00] <sid> people.debian.org shows nothing, is there such a service for Ubuntu?
[04:00] <TheMuso> RAOF: Running it through a pbuilder now. Will test in a gutsy chroot...
[04:01] <TheMuso> sid: Yes, but the one for Ubuntu is only for canonical employees.
[04:01] <Nafallo> s/Mariam/Miriam/
[04:01] <sid> Installed-Size: 216
[04:01] <sid> Maintainer: Ubuntu MOTU Developers <ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com>
[04:01] <sid> Original-Maintainer: Miriam Ruiz <little_miry@yahoo.es>
[04:01] <sid> woops, does that mean she maintains it, or motu?
[04:01] <mwolson> RAOF: i would test your package, but i think ~/.democracyplayer has already been migrated from running 0.9.6rc0, and i don't want to risk corruption
[04:01] <Hobbsee> sid: she maintains it
[04:02] <RAOF> mwolson: mv ~/.democracyplayer ~/.democracy-backup
[04:02] <Nafallo> sid: both
[04:02] <mwolson> RAOF: hmm, yeah, could do that
[04:03] <sid> 22:02 [freenode]  -!- #ubuntu-mo Baby      G   0  n=miry@pdpc/supporter/silver/kavi/baby [Miriam Ruiz] 
[04:03] <sid> Baby: you around?
[04:03] <Nafallo> ah. right. say hello from me :-)
[04:03] <sid> ubuntu needs a public people system, like debian. imho
[04:03] <Nafallo> * [Baby]  inaktiv 07:26:14, ploggning: Sat May 19 18:47:59
[04:04] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: ppa sort of works now, btw
[04:04] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: Sort of?
[04:04] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: Please enlighten me.
[04:04] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: well, does work.  restricted to -dev and such
[04:04] <TheMuso> How do we make use of them?
[04:04] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: i'm not sure where the documentation on it was, but we saw it in action at UDS
[04:04] <TheMuso> Sweet.
[04:04] <Hobbsee> dput to dogfood.launchpad.net
[04:05] <Hobbsee> dont remember the username and such and directory
[04:05] <Nafallo> ppa?
[04:05] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: ask siretart 
[04:05] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: Ok will do.
[04:05] <Nafallo> !ppa
[04:05] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about ppa - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[04:05] <Hobbsee> Nafallo: personal package archives
[04:05] <TheMuso> Nafallo: Personal package archives
[04:05] <TheMuso> *snap*
[04:05] <Nafallo> ah. kewl.
[04:05] <Nafallo> damn bots ;-)
[04:12] <mwolson> RAOF: it builds and actually seems to work (moved ~/.democracyplayer out of the way first)
[04:13] <RAOF> Woot!  i386 workage!
[04:13] <TheMuso> as soon as he installs its deps
[04:13] <TheMuso> RAOF: I'll test anyway, just to be sure.
[04:15] <mwolson> yep, democracyplayer still crashes after displaying a video clip
[04:15] <RAOF> But only on i386, not amd645
[04:16] <TheMuso> mwolson: Is this with RAOF's merge?
[04:16] <RAOF> Now that I've found the homestarrunner.com rss feed, I may actually *use* democracy, rather than just fixing the packaging :)
[04:17] <mwolson> TheMuso: yes
[04:17] <TheMuso> mwolson: Thanks for the heads up.
[04:17] <RAOF> mwolson: How do you trigger this bug, just to make sure it's i386 only.
[04:18] <mwolson> RAOF: start democracyplayer, play a video, once end of video is reached, crash occurs and democracyplayer exits
[04:18] <mwolson> The program 'gecko' received an X Window System error.
[04:18] <mwolson> This probably reflects a bug in the program.
[04:18] <mwolson> The error was 'BadMatch (invalid parameter attributes)'. ... etc.
[04:19] <TheMuso> heh
[04:19] <Nafallo> RAOF: send them to be when you're done with them will you? :-)
[04:20] <RAOF> Well, that's an i386 only bug.
[04:21] <Nafallo> RAOF: ehrm, that's okey. I'm on that arch atm :-)
[04:21] <joejaxx> TheMuso: debdiff is supposed to show ALL changes between two packages right? or am i just imagining things
[04:22] <TheMuso> joejaxx: Thats right.
[04:22] <joejaxx> because right now it is not showing the menu file change i just made
[04:22] <ajmitch> maybe you didn't rebuild the source package correctly?
[04:23] <DaSkreech> Is the flashplugin not verified by the apt system?
[04:23] <DaSkreech> "WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated!   flashplugin-nonfree Install these packages without verification [y/N] ?
[04:24] <Nafallo> yes it is. try apt-get update again
[04:24] <Nafallo> or a supportchannel :-)
[04:26] <DaSkreech> I did
[04:26] <DaSkreech>  they said to ask here if Flashplugin should throw that error
[04:27] <Nafallo> they are clearly wrong. they should know that flashplugin-nonfree is in multiverse and so should be authenticated through Releases.gpg
[04:27] <superm1> DaSkreech, you may have a third party repository providing the package, make sure sources.list is clean
[04:27] <Nafallo> anyway. what I said should fix it or you have a 3rd party repo :-)
[04:27] <superm1> it should be authenticating with the ubuntu releases.gpg
[04:27] <superm1> ^
[04:28] <DaSkreech> superm1: Just did
[04:28] <DaSkreech> it's clean
[04:28] <superm1> well beyond that, see #ubuntu for help, this channel is for package development
[04:29] <DaSkreech> I don't want a end user help I just wanted to verify that it's not supposed to do that
[04:32] <Hobbsee> wouldnt have thought it was
[04:36] <DaSkreech> Me either but It' so hard to verify non-sourced apps ....
[04:38] <TheMuso> RAOF: DId you confirm that the video end bug was i386 only?
[04:38] <RAOF> TheMuso: Yup, movies play right through to the end and then start the next one for me :)
[04:39] <TheMuso> Right
[04:39] <RAOF> Intriguing.  libltdl3 is totally broken (as in, the package is empty except for /usr/doc).  Hello, launchpad!
[04:39] <TheMuso> RAOF: Do you want me to go ahead with the upload for now?
[04:39] <TheMuso> Or do you want to work on these probs?
[04:39] <superm1> TheMuso, once your finished with democracy, will you have a few min for a revu?
[04:39] <TheMuso> superm1: Perhaps. I want to get some lunch, and I intend to start doing non-ubuntu stuff afterwards, but I'll see.
[04:40] <superm1> K
[04:40] <RAOF> TheMuso: You might as well upload it.  I'm not sure how to fix it, so I'm unlikely to be able to fix it soon.  Having the merged package in there will allow other people to fix it, if the feel like it :).
[04:40] <TheMuso> RAOF: Ok.
[04:41] <RAOF> Also, it works for amd64 :)
[04:41] <TheMuso> RAOF: On its way up...
[04:41] <RAOF> Yay!
[04:45] <TheMuso> RAOF: Uploaded. Will update the bug accordingly.
[04:47] <TheMuso> bbl. Lunch.,
[04:50] <RAOF> Can anyone confirm bug #115905?  It seems crazy, since it's the same source package that worked in feisty.
[04:50] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 115905 in libtool "libltdl3 package is empty" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/115905
[04:51] <sid> I just installed that.

[04:53] <persia> RAOF: I have a /usr/lib/libltdl.so.3.1.4 in a recent (~1 min) gutsy snapshot.
[04:58] <RAOF> persia: And that's in the "libltdl3" package?  What version, what arch?
[05:00] <persia> RAOF: Yes, 1.5.22-4, AMD64
[05:04] <RAOF> Hm.  Same package, same arch, same version.  But dpkg --listfiles libltdl3 doesn't give that.
[05:04] <RAOF> Weird
[05:06] <persia> RAOF: Try `aptitude download libltdl3; dpkg --contents libltdl3_1.5.22-4_amd64.deb`  if you like the output, `dpkg -i libltdl3_1.5.22-4_amd64.deb`.
[05:18] <dabaR> If I try to install the ubuntu-desktop package on gutsy, and get this error: The following packages have unmet dependencies: libgcj7-awt: Depends: gcj-4.1-base (= 4.1.2-0ubuntu5) but 4.1.2-7ubuntu1 is to be installed.
[05:19] <Hobbsee> !ping
[05:19] <ubotu> pong
[05:19] <persia> dabaR: Yep.  Gutsy's broken :)
[05:19] <dabaR> Should I edit the control file and fix it, or what is the right thing to do?
[05:19] <Hobbsee> dabaR: no, you go and fix the broken package, or wait
[05:19] <persia> dabaR: It's main.  Wait.  Uninstall ubuntu-desktop if you need to upgrade.
[05:21] <dabaR> Do you guys also see an issue with the icons in gnome?
[05:21] <dabaR> That they are missing.
[05:23] <Hobbsee> er, if i'm building a main-only package, in a pbuilder that includes universe, that wont cause problems will it?
[05:24] <Hobbsee> if none of the build-deps are in universe, from the control file?
[05:24] <persia> Hobbsee: Shouldn't, but it doesn't automatically verify that none of the build-deps are in universe.
[05:25] <Hobbsee> this is true
[05:25] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: If you really want to check, modify your pbuilder's sources.list file.
[05:25] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: i'd prefer not to - it's nto my pbuilder
[05:25] <TheMuso> Right.
[05:25] <persia> Hobbsee: apt-cache madison each and every build-dep, and you're safe :)
[05:26] <TheMuso> Ok... something is up with the builds
[05:26] <Hobbsee> hehe
[05:26] <TheMuso> None of the builds are building.
[05:26] <TheMuso> build machines even
[05:26] <Hobbsee> odd - are they set to manual?
[05:27] <TheMuso> No.
[05:30] <ajmitch> someone probably broke soyuz
[05:31] <Hobbsee> likely
[05:31] <Fujitsu> What has it done this time.
[05:31] <Hobbsee> died
[05:31] <Fujitsu> s/./?
[05:31] <Fujitsu> I hate my Ethernet switch. It seems to stop working after a couple of weeks, and needs to be reset.
[05:33] <Fujitsu> What ate DaD's comments?
[05:36] <persia> Soyuz oddity: https://launchpad.net/+builds/+build/337690
[05:37] <jmg> Soyuz = rocketfuel replacement?
[05:38] <Fujitsu> Soyuz is the package management component of LP.
[05:38] <Fujitsu> persia: Nice.
[05:39] <persia> Fujitsu: I was just browsing needs-build to see if I should wait no submitting things, and that was the last entry.
[05:39] <persia> s/no/on/
[05:42] <Fujitsu> Hm, looks like PPA is targeted for 3 days from now.
[05:43] <TheMuso> Yeah I have a few packages that are needs build, yet all build machines are sitting their idling.
[05:44] <Fujitsu> The buildds have been stuffing up a lot lately.
[05:52] <persia> Could anyone suggest a method to determine the PIC-ness of a .a file?
[06:17] <RAOF> persia: Try to link it into an amd64 shared library? :)
[06:18] <RAOF> You could probably disassemble it, and grep the assembly for (insert non-pic addressing modes that I don't have the assembler knowledge for)?
[06:18] <persia> RAOF: I get R_X86_64_32S failures :).  objdump has been very helpful, but thanks.
[06:20] <RAOF> And if you need access to an amd64 build box, just ask.
[06:23] <RAOF> Certainly.  But don't you have access to the ubuntuwire build thingys ajmitch ?
[06:23] <LaserJock> bah, ajmitch has his own amd64
[06:24] <RAOF> Anyone else :P
[06:26] <Hobbsee> hi LaserJock 
[06:26] <ajmitch> LaserJock: but it's old & slow
[06:27] <ajmitch> RAOF: ubuntuwire is lacking an amd64 still, iirc
[06:27] <RAOF> Really?  I thought ubuntuwire had everything (ppc, sparc even)
[06:27] <RAOF> Obviously, not being an actual motu, I haven't been following too carfully :)
[06:27] <ajmitch> just whatever imbrandon could get his grubby mitts on
[06:29] <LaserJock> it has ppc, sparc, and i386
[06:31] <ajmitch> xen?
[06:31] <RAOF> I'm not sure how the ubuntuwire things need to be set up.  I could try xen, I supopse :)
[06:31] <Hobbsee> i wouldnt use ubuntuwire for anything time critical, atm...
[06:32] <Hobbsee> sarah@LongPointyStick:~/devel/kde3.5.7/kdelibs$ scp kdelibs_3.5.7* ubuntuwire:kdelibs
[06:32] <Hobbsee> Enter passphrase for key '/home/sarah/.ssh/id_dsa':
[06:32] <Hobbsee> kdelibs_3.5.7-1ubuntu1.diff.gz                                                                           100%  524KB  19.4KB/s   00:27
[06:32] <Hobbsee> kdelibs_3.5.7-1ubuntu1.dsc                                                                               100% 1490     1.5KB/s   00:00
[06:32] <Hobbsee> kdelibs_3.5.7-1ubuntu1.dsc.asc                                                                           100%    0     0.0KB/s   00:00
[06:32] <Hobbsee> kdelibs_3.5.7.orig.tar.gz                                                                                  7% 1292KB  15.7KB/s   18:06 ET
[06:32] <Treenaks> Hobbsee: looks like you need new intertubes
[06:33] <Hobbsee> Treenaks: i know.  i live in the wrong country.  that's why i'm copying to a US server now, as quickly as possible
[06:34] <Hobbsee> to what?
[06:34] <Treenaks> Hobbsee: as if that country is much better ;P
[06:34] <Hobbsee> true - i was only talking in terms of bandwidth
[06:34] <RAOF> To our new flat (if we get it) :)
[06:35] <ajmitch> RAOF: super-fast interweb?
[06:35] <Hobbsee> ooh :)
[06:35] <Hobbsee> where's hte new flat?
[06:35] <ajmitch> a blazing fast 1.5Mbps?
[06:35] <RAOF> Kensington, practically opposite UNSW
[06:35] <RAOF> ajmitch: No, a blazing fast 24Mbit/sec
[06:35] <Hobbsee> ooh, nice :)
[06:35] <RAOF> Ya.  It is actually possible to get adsl2+ in Sydney :)
[06:36] <ajmitch> RAOF: which will probably go at about 100Kbps for anything offshore :)
[06:36] <RAOF> Quite true.  au.archive.ubuntu.com manages >= 1MB/sec, though.
[06:38] <Hobbsee> RAOF: yes, but au.archive.u.c *sucks*
[06:38] <Hobbsee> use the mirror @ planet or whatever it is
[06:38] <RAOF> Oooh, there's a better one?  Awesome.
[06:39] <Burgundavia> anybody notice how cheap broadband was in Spain
[06:39] <Burgundavia> ?
[06:39] <TheMuso> for gutsy, and internode for feisty
[06:39] <Fujitsu> I get well over 1MB/s to it :)
[06:39] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: come to .nl :)
[06:39] <Burgundavia> 6mps for about 5/month
[06:39] <RAOF> ???!
[06:39] <Burgundavia> 5 euros, that is
[06:40] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: that's misleading... it doesn't include the (required) phone line
[06:40] <Burgundavia> still
[06:40] <Burgundavia> assuming you want to go with a bundle, it is a good price
[06:40] <Treenaks> true
[06:40] <Burgundavia> none of the bundles here in Canada are that good
[06:40] <Fujitsu> And Australia doesn't come even slightly close.
[06:40] <Treenaks> We have some (cheap) ISPs here that give you speeds like that for that price..
[06:40] <Burgundavia> most of time it is about a 20% reduction, no worth the extra cost of getting useless crap
[06:40] <Treenaks> they're mostly shit though :)
[06:41] <ajmitch> hello Burgundavia 
[06:41] <Burgundavia> hey ajmitch
[06:42] <ajmitch> how was your week around madrid?
[06:44] <Burgundavia> excellent, save the trip back to Sevilla
[06:45] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: next time, get a rebookable ticket; )
[06:45] <ajmitch> yes, that would be a bit of a pain
[06:45] <Burgundavia> Treenaks: I didn't book it
[06:45] <ajmitch> did you end up standing outside the airport for several hours?
[06:45] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: hmm
[06:45] <Burgundavia> 3, in fact
[06:45] <Burgundavia> with about 5 other people
[06:45] <Burgundavia> pretty much all Americans
[06:45] <ajmitch> heh
[06:45] <Burgundavia> as their flights left Madrid really early
[06:46] <Burgundavia> there are pretty much no flights leaving Europe for NA after about 11am, because otherwise they don't get to NA in time to turn around for a flight back the same day
[06:46] <Treenaks> I had 2 'What kind of English is this captaing speaking?' flights...
[06:46] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: eventful?
[06:46] <Treenaks> go Iberia
[06:47] <ajmitch> I just tuned out for most of what was said
[06:47] <ajmitch> Burgundavia: didn't you read about the cigarette smuggling?
[06:47] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: trying to bring smokes into au, plane dying in singapore, plane that probably would have had to go to brisbane/melbourne/canberra if we had left on time, due to fog...
[06:47] <Burgundavia> ahh, that
[06:47] <Burgundavia> right, that was a whole week ago
[06:47] <Burgundavia> how do you expect me to remember that? :)
[06:47] <ajmitch> yeah, some of us had to come back early
[06:48] <Hobbsee> because we expect you not to be a clueless mail.
[06:48] <Hobbsee> er, male
[06:48] <ajmitch> and not spend another week in the sun
[06:48] <Treenaks> I get LOTS of clueless mail!
[06:49] <Burgundavia> geez
[06:51] <Burgundavia> so tired...
[06:51] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: well.. sleep :)
[06:52] <crimsun> ajmitch: they're only avoiding ALSA because they're insane and don't like fun!
[06:52] <ajmitch> crimsun: aw
[06:52] <ajmitch> I'm sure you can find some willing volunteers
[06:52] <Burgundavia> ALSA: almost, but not completely, unlike a sane system
[06:54] <Fujitsu> That reminds me: I think I can only use headphones in 2.6.22, not the main speakers. I should probably reboot and confirm that.
[06:55] <crimsun> yeah, please do let me know if you've got a regression from feisty.  BenC doesn't forward-port quirks or sound/ fixes.
[06:56] <Fujitsu> I'll reboot in a couple of minutes and check.
[06:56] <Burgundavia> crimsun: please say at least those fixes are getting less
[06:56] <Hobbsee> mmm....classy
[06:56] <crimsun> Burgundavia: they are.
[06:56] <Hobbsee> why has this only built half the binaires?
[06:57] <ajmitch> crimsun: get Hobbsee to take on alsa
[06:57] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Which package?
[06:57] <crimsun> (she doesn't know yet, but she has.)
[06:57] <ajmitch> excellent...
[06:57] <crimsun> =)
[06:57] <Hobbsee> pft
[06:57] <ajmitch> crimsun: part of the conditions for her becoming core-dev?
[06:57] <Fujitsu> Ah, that's why she's being forced into core-devness! All makes sense now.
[06:58] <TheMuso> heh
[06:58] <crimsun> excellent </smithers>
[06:58] <jmg> crimsun: s/smithers/burns/g
[06:58] <Fujitsu> smithers?
[06:58] <crimsun> bah
[06:58] <Fujitsu> Oh, that's a Simpons character, isn't it?
[06:59] <jmg> Fujitsu: ^5
[06:59] <crimsun> I suppose it's because I'm listening to a song that references smithers.
[06:59] <jmg> crimsun: rainbow connection?
[06:59] <Fujitsu> I think I've seen about 2 episodes.
[06:59] <jmg> Fujitsu: you're doing well
[07:00] <jmg> it annoys me that a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge chunk of what people call humor is regurgitated simpsons jokes.
[07:00] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: what was that discussion with cjwatson about core-dev stuff in -devel?
[07:00] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: sorry?
[07:00] <Hobbsee> er, how would i troubleshoot why all the binaries arent being built, when i run pbuilder build foo.dsc?
[07:01] <Hobbsee> (the libs havent built)
[07:04] <LaserJock> FTBFS ;-)
[07:05] <Hobbsee> wait, i suck
[07:05] <Hobbsee> nope, not that
[07:05] <crimsun> arch-specific?
[07:05] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: you were discussing something to with core dev and new procedures that you "didn't have time to object to"
[07:05] <Burgundavia> archives are busy failing me
[07:06] <Hobbsee> crimsun: no.  far more idiotic than that
[07:06] <crimsun> wrong dsc? :-)
[07:06] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: right.  LaserJock and myself were thinking about core dev, and then discovered that one had to be proposed, rather than propose oneself
[07:06] <Hobbsee> crimsun: nope.
[07:06] <Hobbsee> crimsun: just that i suck at using ls
[07:06] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: ahh
[07:06] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: rationale?
[07:06] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: that's not how I understood things to be
[07:07] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: uh?  rationale for *what*?
[07:07] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: needing to be proposed
[07:07] <Hobbsee> ah right
[07:08] <Hobbsee> not sure.  those were the rules put into place
[07:08] <LaserJock> well, I was trying to get a quicky core-devship
[07:08] <ajmitch> LaserJock: trying to sneak in the backdoor, you mean :)
[07:08] <LaserJock> well, it's handy having everybody there, that's all
[07:08] <Burgundavia> shouldn't be hard to get somebody to propose you
[07:09] <LaserJock> and oli was eager for it ;-)
[07:09] <LaserJock> well, it's not exactly "propose"
[07:09] <LaserJock> mdz want the MC to take the app and review the person and pass on a recomendation to the TB
[07:09] <LaserJock> the rationale being that the TB doesn't work with potential core-devs much
[07:10] <ajmitch> which is different from someone being nominated for core-dev
[07:10] <Burgundavia> ahh
[07:10] <LaserJock> well, the MC nomincates with a recommendation
[07:10] <ajmitch> the MC doesn't work with every potential core-dev member much
[07:10] <LaserJock> the proplem was that it was just mdz telling oli
[07:10] <crimsun> right, taking an app is quite different from evaluating a nomination
[07:10] <LaserJock> which meant me asking daniel
[07:11] <ajmitch> nothing has been decided yet, afaik
[07:11] <LaserJock> which lead to daniel asking matt
[07:11] <ajmitch> apart from whatever mdz wishes to happen
[07:11] <Burgundavia> anyway, sleeping now
[07:11] <ajmitch> lazy
[07:11] <Hobbsee> heh, goodnight
[07:11] <LaserJock> in the end "we're working on it"
[07:11] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: basically that hte procedure is unclear, so no one's attempting to go thru it
[07:11] <LaserJock> but it better not take as long as CC/TB votes ;-)
[07:12] <crimsun> once there's a TB-approved protocol, things will move quickly
[07:12] <LaserJock> sure
[07:12] <crimsun> MC has been fast WRT turnaround for most MOTU applicants
[07:12] <ajmitch> once the MC knows what on earth is expected of them, things may happens
[07:12] <Hobbsee> heh
[07:12] <Hobbsee> you're expected to fix the world
[07:12] <Hobbsee> right.  this might just build now
[07:13] <LaserJock> it was just  tad odd because there was a TB approved protocol that Matt decided needed a change
[07:13] <LaserJock> hmm, what if I take ajmitch's place
[07:13] <LaserJock> and nominate myself ;-)
[07:13] <ajmitch> sure, go for it
[07:14] <Hobbsee> hehe
[07:15] <LaserJock> ajmitch: no thanks, I don't want it, sorry ;-)
[07:15] <ajmitch> Hobbsee will do it
[07:15] <Hobbsee> only if i can change processes :P
[07:15] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: so dont tempt me :P
[07:16] <LaserJock> don't you have enough to do already? :-)
[07:17] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: because the meetings are at an insane time, i hate mailing lists, and you missed the first night.
[07:17] <Hobbsee> where LaserJock and i and otehrs were discussing it
[07:17] <LaserJock> heh, that was fun
[07:17] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: i'm out of irc council now, remember...
[07:17] <crimsun> Hobbsee: what processes are screwed, and what do you proposed in their stead?
[07:18] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: then please propose a decent time for a meeting
[07:18] <ajmitch> we're still waiting on someone to put forward a time for the next meeting, since we're overdue
[07:18] <LaserJock> for an MC meeting?
[07:18] <Hobbsee> crimsun: it worries me how much we police our MOTU's, when they're expected to be responsible.  the SRU process is one of them
[07:19] <ajmitch> LaserJock: for a MOTU meeting - we decided months ago not to have separate meetings
[07:19] <LaserJock> ah
[07:19] <crimsun> Hobbsee: what about the [revised]  SRU process do you think is cumbersome?
[07:19] <ajmitch> you want the SRU process changed yet again?
[07:19] <ajmitch> about the only way it could be less policed would be if it were a total free-for-all
[07:20] <Hobbsee> sorry, s/SRU/UVF/
[07:20] <Hobbsee> too many acronyms
[07:20] <LaserJock> well, the old SRU policy might be an example
[07:20] <ajmitch> so you want any motu to be able to ignore UVF at his/her discretion?
[07:21] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: then again, if our MOTU's were all sensible and trustworthy, the free-for-all wouldnt be a problem, because there would be nothing insane going into hte archive.  *shrug*
[07:21] <ajmitch> and you know that doesn't happen
[07:21] <Hobbsee> yes.  see the "if" there.
[07:21] <ajmitch> so what problems are there with the UVF process?
[07:22] <crimsun> ok, so does the motu-uvf do too much policing?
[07:22] <Hobbsee> there's so much work to be done - and how much time is going into motu-uvf stuff?
[07:22] <Hobbsee> i'm not convinced that that time cant better be spent in other areas
[07:23] <ajmitch> not very much time, really
[07:23] <Hobbsee> (is the long and the short of it - i've never been terribly eloquent, which is one of the reasons i avoid ML's :P )
[07:23] <LaserJock> well, I don't know that it's na issue of time
[07:23] <ajmitch> hence why there are 5 members of the team
[07:23] <LaserJock> it's an issue of should people be MOTUs if they have to be "policed" all the time
[07:23] <crimsun> ok, so are you saying that that one (1) ~motu-uvf member is taking too long?
[07:24] <crimsun> [https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess#head-9523bc4076ff011324d67cddc97969ec609618d6 for reference] 
[07:24] <LaserJock> crimsun: I don't think she is
[07:24] <ajmitch> LaserJock: we constantly get pressure to get lots of people involved & into MOTU
[07:24] <LaserJock> I think there's a comparison to Debian
[07:24] <crimsun> are you saying that ~motu-uvf should go the way of the dodo?
[07:24] <ajmitch> and not have the high barriers that debian has
[07:25] <LaserJock> right
[07:25] <Hobbsee> crimsun: i'm not sure.
[07:25] <LaserJock> that's what the debate comes down to
[07:25] <LaserJock> should we keep the "barrier" (I prefer something more along skill level) high
[07:25] <LaserJock> and risk having too few
[07:26] <LaserJock> or lower the barrier but have to do a lot more "policing"
[07:26] <crimsun> WRT "barrier" - I think it's pretty reasonable currently, but I'm biased.
[07:26] <LaserJock> it used to be that a MOTU could basically do anything in Universe, much like a DD in Debian
[07:26] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: i think losing that is a great tragedgy
[07:27] <LaserJock> although admitidly those were some more "wild" days
[07:27] <crimsun> so what has changed that ~motu can't "basically do anything"?
[07:27] <ajmitch> wilder days when fewer people used ubuntu, too
[07:27] <LaserJock> yep
[07:27] <LaserJock> SRUs were trivial
[07:27] <ajmitch> SRUs barely existed back then
[07:27] <LaserJock> you didn't have to go through anybody first
[07:28] <StevenK> A DD can apparently do anything in Debian, but there is a social cost, not a technical one.
[07:28] <LaserJock> yep
[07:28] <ajmitch> a MOTU could ignore UVF if they wanted as well
[07:28] <LaserJock> sure
[07:28] <StevenK> Exactly.
[07:28] <crimsun> ok, seriously, what problems do you see with the current Universe SRU protocol?
[07:28] <Hobbsee> i think the SRU process is fine - there certainly needs to be some form of decent testing in there
[07:28] <ajmitch> debian has far stricter freezes than ubuntu does
[07:28] <Hobbsee> nto that iv'e done one since the new lot
[07:29] <LaserJock> crimsun: not much with the current one. My issue is how long it took to get here and the number of times we had to change it
[07:29] <ajmitch> if you're going to compare with debian, DDs end up being far more limited
[07:29] <StevenK> I haven't either, so I'm not going to comment.
[07:29] <ajmitch> LaserJock: well we're not perfect
[07:29] <LaserJock> no, that's certainly understandable
[07:29] <ajmitch> I threw out an initial proposal because noone could agree on anything
[07:30] <crimsun> LaserJock: ok, so we're there now, and unfortunately, it may need to change as Ubuntu grows.
[07:30] <LaserJock> and at the time i said somthing like "well, we can always change it later"
[07:30] <ajmitch> it was pretty much what main did
[07:30] <StevenK> LaserJock: Exactly. You can't say that "it took too long to get here" as a problem with the current proposal.
[07:30] <ajmitch> I don't see it as a bad thing that we were able to look at it & change it
[07:30] <LaserJock> but it can at times be very difficult in MOTU because policies can fairly rapidly change
[07:31] <crimsun> are there issues with the current universe UVF protocol?
[07:31] <LaserJock> yes
[07:31] <LaserJock> we do to many of them
[07:31] <LaserJock> ;-)
[07:31] <StevenK> LaserJock: It's like saying "It takes too long to get from .au to .uk" and blaming the carrier, not the technology.
[07:31] <ajmitch> so there are issues, but they're unspecified, and there's no way to fix them
[07:31] <LaserJock> StevenK: no, but I'm saying perhaps we can improve on the way we get there
[07:32] <LaserJock> well, one of the biggest issues I see is that we attack Universe as a whole
[07:32] <crimsun> LaserJock: ok, how would you characterise the current slowdown in adjusting protocL?
[07:32] <StevenK> LaserJock: But that can't be a problem with the current SRU procedure.
[07:32] <crimsun> protocol ^
[07:32] <Hobbsee> i susepct UVF is just viewed as red tape to get past
[07:32] <LaserJock> crimsun: in general communication problems
[07:32] <Hobbsee> not as a way of going "okay, do i really think this fix is needed, vs any other bugs it may bring?"
[07:32] <LaserJock> for a while we had like 3 different SRU polices running around the wiki
[07:33] <Hobbsee> and i think the number of UVF's show that
[07:33] <LaserJock> the thing I see though is people getting launched at large lists
[07:33] <LaserJock> without really any prioritization
[07:33] <LaserJock> UVFs are good, we need them
[07:33] <StevenK> I don't remember filing many, either.
[07:34] <LaserJock> but I see a lot of "work" in MOTU that's done just because it's on a list
[07:34] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: yes, but you're sane
[07:34] <LaserJock> it's very difficult to prioritze this stuff
[07:35] <LaserJock> I've advocated teams
[07:35] <LaserJock> as I think it alows us to break large task lists into chuncks
[07:35] <Fujitsu> Teams are a necessary thing, there's just too much stuff around otherwise. But then packages get left behind because they're not in teams.
[07:35] <StevenK> And DPL after DPL have advocated them over and over again too.
[07:35] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: but I think that can be handled reasonably too
[07:35] <StevenK> I personally don't think teams will work for everything which is what some people seem to be advocating.
[07:36] <LaserJock> sure, but I think it at least helps
[07:36] <crimsun> I concur with StevenK.  Teams tend to affect the overall speed at which something is accomplished, not whether that something is accomplished.
[07:36] <TheMuso> Since there aren't that many a11y packages in universe, compared to everything else, I'm happy to maintain them solo atm.
[07:36] <LaserJock> crimsun: I disagree
[07:37] <LaserJock> crimsun: it something isn't prioritized or even known it will almost certainly not get done
[07:37] <StevenK> LaserJock: Of course not, but teams don't solve that problem.
[07:37] <LaserJock> sure they do
[07:37] <StevenK> Okay, how do they?
[07:37] <Fujitsu> I monitor all the science bugs. I notice when one is filed.
[07:37] <LaserJock> if I have to look after 20 packages rather than 20,000 it makes a big difference
[07:37] <StevenK> How can a team solve a bug that it doesn't know about?
[07:38] <Fujitsu> Those couple of hundred packages are fairly closely observed.
[07:38] <LaserJock> because a team is a natural way to monitor things
[07:38] <LaserJock> MOTU Science is the use case I'm most familiar with
[07:38] <Fujitsu> A selection of packages is easier to keep track of that 16000.
[07:38] <StevenK> But this is the problem. It isn't one MOTU versus entire universe, it's *all of us*.
[07:38] <LaserJock> we moniotr 450+ packages
[07:38] <LaserJock> sure
[07:38] <LaserJock> that's fine
[07:38] <LaserJock> but it lends focus to an area
[07:39] <jsgotangco> sorry to butt in, but isn't that what team is for, so to focus on a certain area
[07:39] <StevenK> But it also leads to neglecting other areas.
[07:39] <LaserJock> sure
[07:39] <LaserJock> but if the area is important a team will form
[07:39] <LaserJock> and there will certainly people who want to work on the "neglected" area
[07:40] <StevenK> If LaserJock and Fujitsu only focus on the science packages, it leaves us effectively 2 people short for the rest. And no other teams.
[07:40] <jsgotangco> would it be more effective if a team can actually focus on apps that they do now how it works rather than try to cover anything?
[07:40] <Fujitsu> I prioritise science packages, but do touch the rest.
[07:40] <LaserJock> StevenK: but that's not the way it works
[07:40] <StevenK> It's an example, not reality.
[07:40] <jsgotangco> s/now/know
[07:40] <LaserJock> I prioritize (as Fujitsu has said) on science apps, but I certianly touch others as well
[07:41] <LaserJock> but I see every science bug
[07:41] <LaserJock> and I can quickly see how things are doing in Science
[07:41] <LaserJock> maybe we're the exception to the rule or something
[07:41] <LaserJock> but it seems like a very "Ubuntu" way to do things
[07:42] <Hobbsee> the science team seems to do well
[07:42] <Hobbsee> kde team doesnt do too badly, either, packagewise - but merge wise is bad
[07:42] <Hobbsee> er, s/merge/bugs/
[07:42] <crimsun> that's because all you've done is pruned your namespace
[07:42] <crimsun> it's not wrong, per se - in fact, it's quite natural
[07:42] <Hobbsee> true
[07:42] <Hobbsee> i dont know what the magic solution is
[07:43] <crimsun> but it does, as StevenK said, not address the issue of handling 15k packages.
[07:43] <Hobbsee> but i think there's certainly a lot of appeal lost when we can no longer say "the sky is the limit" - and i'll admit that concerns me
[07:43] <LaserJock> well, in my opinion it helps
[07:43] <StevenK> Well, it leaves the rest of us to look after 15k-450 packages.
[07:43] <StevenK> Which is a small drop in the bucket.
[07:43] <LaserJock> no it doesn't
[07:43] <crimsun> LaserJock: it definitely helps smaller namespaces, yes.  I do agree.
[07:43] <Fujitsu> It helps with the packages under that team, but not the rest. Right.
[07:44] <jsgotangco> we just don't have the numbers for now
[07:44] <LaserJock> well, I think it could help the rest
[07:44] <LaserJock> giving people a place to plug into MOTU
[07:44] <Hobbsee> but there's no lifelong dedication to maintain packages for a specific team, forever.  or indeed at all
[07:44] <LaserJock> and get mentorship
[07:44] <jsgotangco> if we had the numbers, the teams would work nicely
[07:44] <LaserJock> will help MOTU as a whole
[07:44] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: no it doesnt to what, sorry?
[07:44] <crimsun> leaves the rest of us to look after 15k-450 packages
[07:44] <crimsun> ^
[07:45] <LaserJock> yes
[07:45] <StevenK> Apparently.
[07:45] <Hobbsee> right, yes
[07:45] <StevenK> I'm unconvinced.
[07:45] <LaserJock> well, IMO and I could be wrong, but not all Universe package should be treated alike
[07:45] <LaserJock> we *have* to prioritize our work
[07:46] <Hobbsee> indeed
[07:46] <StevenK> And who's to decide which packages should have priority?
[07:46] <Hobbsee> i've got the feeling that MOTU has bitten off way more they can chew, and i'm not sure where the cutbacks should be
[07:46] <LaserJock> because we can't handle all of Universe to a satisfactory level (although that is I guess debatable)
[07:46] <jml> StevenK: me :)
[07:46] <LaserJock> StevenK: interest of course
[07:46] <Hobbsee> StevenK: interest, i guess.
[07:46] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Waaay more.
[07:46] <StevenK> *Everybody* is going to biased.
[07:46] <LaserJock> sure
[07:46] <StevenK> going to be
[07:46] <LaserJock> but if you get enough then they are all working ;-)
[07:46] <crimsun> ok, so popcon results are one metric.
[07:46] <crimsun> Are there other effective ones?
[07:46] <StevenK> popcon results don't work, IMO
[07:46] <LaserJock> well, as I'm saying, teams
[07:47] <Hobbsee> is that a problem, though?  that hte packages that we're not interested in are just straight syncs from deiban, wher ehopefully someoen cares about them there?
[07:47] <Hobbsee> i meant developer interest, and some teams, not user interest
[07:47] <crimsun> do LP bug reports correspond roughly to popcon rankings?
[07:47] <LaserJock> hmm, I'm not sure
[07:47] <StevenK> I daresay that is already happening, though. A whole bunch of packages are synced, worked and are never touched.
[07:47] <Fujitsu> crimsun: That's a lot of screenscraping.
[07:47] <Hobbsee> StevenK: and a fair few ones new to ubuntu, whcih are now out of date
[07:47] <StevenK> s/worked/work/
[07:48] <Hobbsee> or like the tex ones (used to be?), which we're not getting the fix in time for
[07:48] <Hobbsee> no idea what's happening now though, with them
[07:48] <StevenK> I mean, even MoM shows that. More than 75% of universe is unmodified from Debian.
[07:48] <ajmitch> LaserJock: how do teams correspond to problems with UVF?
[07:48] <Hobbsee> crimsun: not when you have packages which are Krap, like democracyplayer
[07:48] <StevenK> Ah, the KDE definition of crap.
[07:48] <LaserJock> ajmitch: policing
[07:49] <ajmitch> LaserJock: you'll need to be more verbose than that
[07:49] <LaserJock> essentially, I feel like we do sometimes have a bit too much generalization
[07:49] <LaserJock> we need it for sure
[07:49] <LaserJock> but we need people who know the packages as well
[07:49] <TheMuso> Ins ome ways, I wish more people wanted to get involved with packaging who lirk on the a11y lists, but on the other hand, I'm happy to work on everything myself. :)
[07:49] <StevenK> Ouch!
[07:49] <crimsun> Hobbsee: right.  By that indication, democracyplayer is a fairly popular package.  (I'd be inclined to agree.)
[07:49] <Fujitsu> There are about 1400 with Ubuntu modifications, and 500 (-shudder-) that are new. That's still a lot.
[07:50] <LaserJock> if team leaders can sort of mentore/lead a team that spreads the load around
[07:50] <LaserJock> and makes it so it isn't just a few people that end up doing most of the work
[07:51] <StevenK> TheMuso: lurkers
[07:51] <TheMuso> StevenK: bah of course
[07:51] <crimsun> let me just interject that leading a team doesn't necessarily lead to more people doing most of the work
[07:51] <LaserJock> no
[07:51] <LaserJock> that's true
[07:51] <StevenK> And may lead to burnout of the leader.
[07:52] <Hobbsee> what i'm wondering though, is if we have no interest in a certain package, why are we modifying it?  why not leave it to debian, and focus on other things?
[07:52] <LaserJock> well, I don't know, it just seems very logical to me
[07:52] <TheMuso> SPeaking of teams, and bugmail, has anybody worked out a good way to filter email from LP using procmail?
[07:52] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: I wish I could do that with a11y.
[07:52] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: What do you want to do with it?
[07:52] <LaserJock> "tackling Universe as a whole is not always working that well" -> "let's break it up into logical chuncks"
[07:52] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: +1
[07:53] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: Filter separate team email into mailboxes, i.e teams that don't use a ml for mail.
[07:53] <ajmitch> LaserJock: people have been trying to do that for awhile
[07:53] <LaserJock> it's certianly not the only answer
[07:53] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: There's a new bit at the bottom that says that, but I'm not sure how I'd parse that
[07:53] <LaserJock> ajmitch: but not very successfully
[07:53] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: Yeah I know.
[07:53] <ajmitch> LaserJock: so suggest how it should be done then
[07:53] <LaserJock> I'm not really sure
[07:54] <LaserJock> as I said, MOTU Science seems to work fairly well, I'm not sure why
[07:54] <crimsun> it's pretty clear why. It's a limited namespace.
[07:54] <ajmitch> why should the UVF team take a hands-off approach because the people in a team 'only' have 500 packages to look after?
[07:54] <LaserJock> I mean, it just seems better than the alternative to me
[07:54] <jsgotangco> it has a composition of people interested in certain packages
[07:54] <LaserJock> ajmitch: that's a bit orthogonal to my current discussion
[07:54] <Hobbsee> jsgotangco: who are then more likely to actually do things on them, yes
[07:55] <ajmitch> LaserJock: right, well I was trying to find out why people were complaining so much about UVF & MOTU being a police state & all
[07:55] <LaserJock> but to me, if people are prioritizing on a limited namespace, as crimsun puts it, then they are more likely to make better decisions
[07:55] <LaserJock> because they know the packages better, hopefully
[07:55] <StevenK> Which might be to the detriment of other packages.
[07:55] <Hobbsee> StevenK: which is where we rely on debian
[07:55] <LaserJock> my big complaint is that often times people mess around with packages they don't use, don't test, don't even have a clue how to test
[07:55] <StevenK> And since your focus is narrowed, you don't notice, and futhermore, don't care.
[07:56] <LaserJock> StevenK: honestly fine
[07:56] <Hobbsee> who have the people who are interested in them.
[07:56] <crimsun> LaserJock: that's trivially clear, yes. The problem is not that carving namespaces isn't effective, it's that we will not - in the near future - gain enough dedicated MOTU to make such an approach effective.
[07:56] <LaserJock> if some packages fall through the cracks I really don't care
[07:56] <Fujitsu> StevenK: It depends if you want all the packages to be fairly crap, or some packages to be good, and the others maybe slightly worse.
[07:56] <StevenK> Hobbsee: But sometimes Debian can't help us, for example, when we hit transitions before them.
[07:56] <Hobbsee> StevenK: this is true
[07:56] <LaserJock> as long as the ones that we do care about get properly treated
[07:56] <jsgotangco> this is still very much a numbers game
[07:56] <StevenK> Where we is MOTU Science, or MOTU?
[07:56] <LaserJock> MOTU
[07:57] <Hobbsee> and it will tned to bring people in, who are motivated to fix their area of interest
[07:57] <crimsun> jsgotangco: it will remain such, I'm afraid.
[07:57] <LaserJock> if there isn't enough interest to create a team around something then it can go in the "misc" pile
[07:57] <StevenK> And then where is the misc team?
[07:57] <LaserJock> and there are always people willing to look at those
[07:57] <ajmitch> where 90% of universe == misc
[07:57] <LaserJock> possibly
[07:57] <StevenK> But that is already the case.
[07:58] <Hobbsee> does misc refer to ubuntu-changed packages, or all packages?
[07:58] <LaserJock> I'm just advocating expanding our emphasis on teams, that's all
[07:58] <LaserJock> not making it mandatory or anything
[07:58] <LaserJock> I think all packages
[07:58] <LaserJock> but surely if Ubuntu has changed a package we are obligated to maintain that divergence
[07:58] <TheMuso> But does a team work better if everybody is a MOTU, or does the team slow down if most are new MOTU hopefuls?
[07:59] <LaserJock> well, when I started MOTU Science there were 0 MOTUs in it
[07:59] <TheMuso> The thing that worries me about lots of teams, is that its easy to create teams, but unless there are MOTUs who are also interested, the team's progress could be slow.
[07:59] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: depends hwo good the sponsorship is
[07:59] <crimsun> TheMuso: ubuntu-audio is a good example.  A lot of people simply leave the group (not to mention the members who haven't done a thing at all).
[08:00] <TheMuso> Sure there are the various sponsors channels, but if there si a big queue, it might take a while for those packages to be looked at,.
[08:00] <LaserJock> if people really feel like team maintainence is no good then fine, it was just a suggestion
[08:00] <LaserJock> I was just impressed on how well MOTU Science worked out
[08:00] <TheMuso> Teams are good.
[08:00] <LaserJock> and wanted to see that continue in other areas of MOTU
[08:00] <LaserJock> I just feel like we're drowning
[08:01] <LaserJock> maybe it's just me being cynical but I don't really forsee MOTU surviving more than a release or two at this pace
[08:01] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: i was trying to avoid saying that
[08:01] <crimsun> 15k is still a stretch for 200 dedicated MOTU.
[08:02] <TheMuso> crimsun: Alright, 500.
[08:02] <LaserJock> our user/internal demand seems to be scaling much more rapidly than our ability to keep up with it
[08:02] <LaserJock> we get nailed every release for pretty obvious problems
[08:02] <TheMuso> LaserJock: By whom?
[08:03] <LaserJock> we should have essentially no SRUs
[08:03] <LaserJock> because when we release we shouldn't be releasing crap
[08:03] <TheMuso> I do remember seeing SRUs that have involved packages that haven't previously been touched.
[08:03] <LaserJock> TheMuso: forums/reviewers/users/ourselves
[08:03] <jsgotangco> so you're saying we sync pretty much crap
[08:03] <LaserJock> no
[08:03] <LaserJock> we end up decreasing Debian's quality
[08:04] <LaserJock> which is a shame
[08:04] <crimsun> we do?
[08:04] <LaserJock> yes
[08:04] <LaserJock> if you compare Etch to any Ubuntu release
[08:04] <TheMuso> Some would probably think that since Debian is so large, its quality has dropped...
[08:04] <Hobbsee> if we're doing nothing, then we should be equal.  if we're decreasing debian, that's a problem..
[08:04] <LaserJock> we take a snapshot of sid, which at any given time has a fair amount of brokeness
[08:04] <TheMuso> I have seen some rpetty shocking debian packages, in terms of maintainability.
[08:04] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: surely a thousand+ debian packages in etch are crap
[08:05] <LaserJock> but then sid in the mean time fixes problems
[08:05] <LaserJock> but we don't pick them up
[08:05] <jsgotangco> we don't have grumpy that's why
[08:05] <LaserJock> heh
[08:05] <TheMuso> pretty even
[08:05] <LaserJock> if you look at the RC stats that lucas did
[08:06] <crimsun> can that be alleviated by having autosync run until RC for universe?
[08:06] <LaserJock> that would help
[08:06] <LaserJock> but it would also introduce more bugs too
[08:06] <StevenK> And leave us how long to fix bugs?
[08:06] <LaserJock> UVF is good
[08:06] <LaserJock> it's just that we need to know what to do exceptions for
[08:06] <LaserJock> when we take the snapshot from sid we then need to be careful to pull in the subsequent fixes
[08:07] <LaserJock> this happens fairly frequently with TeX packages
[08:07] <Fujitsu> ajmitch's RC bug stuff helped a lot with that.
[08:07] <LaserJock> we had and RC bug in Dapper that was fixed in Debian for some months
[08:07] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: The Canonical people would have us murdered, I'd guess.
[08:07] <TheMuso> For those of us who used it, yes.
[08:07] <LaserJock> and that was for a Main package
[08:07] <LaserJock> let alone for Universe
[08:07] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: yay, murder!  there's going to be a murder tonight!
[08:08] <Fujitsu> There's stuff in main (like TeX) that's barely maintained.
[08:08] <Fujitsu> Feisty's TeXLive is a mess.
[08:08] <LaserJock> so what we need is to be able to see this stuff
[08:08] <LaserJock> that's why I think ajmitch's list was awesome
[08:08] <LaserJock> that's the stuff we need to push
[08:09] <LaserJock> .desktops are nice, but when push-comes-to-shove we need to fix the "big" stuff before release
[08:09] <LaserJock> and that's where I find that focusing down a bit
[08:10] <LaserJock> can allow for that
[08:10] <LaserJock> it's all a balance I suppose
[08:10] <LaserJock> we need some trivial tasks to get Hopefuls up to speed
[08:11] <jsgotangco> yeah use big pointy sticks
[08:11] <TheMuso> Isn't that was bitesyze/needs packaging tags are for?
[08:11] <crimsun> ok, so far the one concrete thing to arise is that we should ask for autosync to be extended for Universe
[08:11] <TheMuso> Or do you think hopefuls are daunted by the bug system?
[08:11] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: they seem to have been good
[08:12] <LaserJock> TheMuso: yes, but if MOTUs spend most of their time sponsoring them rather than working on RC bugs it's a problem
[08:12] <crimsun> RC is probably a bit much.  Is Beta more feasible?
[08:12] <LaserJock> crimsun: I really don't know about that
[08:12] <Fujitsu> RC is definitely too much.
[08:12] <Fujitsu> I'm really not sure about when is better, though.
[08:12] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: I think it might be, yes.
[08:13] <LaserJock> again, my problem isn't so much timing, but what we do afterwards
[08:13] <Fujitsu> It's hard to say,.
[08:13] <Hobbsee> this isnt a LTS release, it can be an experiment
[08:13] <Hobbsee> next one is the more important
[08:13] <LaserJock> the auto sync should at least go to UVF
[08:13] <imbrandon> +1 on till beta
[08:13] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: You saw the outrage after Edgy. We can't afford to have an experiment.
[08:13] <LaserJock> June 21st is just way to early for Universe
[08:13] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: That requires infrastructure to not sync new upstream versions...
[08:13] <crimsun> remember that Beta is still one month prior to final.
[08:14] <Fujitsu> crimsun: Oh, is it that early?
[08:14] <Fujitsu> Hm.
[08:14] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: we equally cant afford to keep having these huge bugs that have been fixed in deiban, irc
[08:14] <Hobbsee> crimsun: sounds reasonable
[08:14] <imbrandon> i think beta is a good target, and Hobbsee *cough* sru *cough*
[08:14] <imbrandon> :)
[08:15] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: sru what now?
[08:15] <imbrandon> 01:14 < Hobbsee> Fujitsu: we equally cant afford to keep having these huge bugs that have been fixed in deiban, irc
[08:15] <LaserJock> bah
[08:15] <Hobbsee> oh, yeah, right
[08:15] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: We can't just SRU everything.
[08:15] <Fujitsu> We have an enormous number of SRUs.
[08:15] <LaserJock> I denote a tad bit of sarcasm there ;-)
[08:15] <Fujitsu> When they should have been easily fixed prior to release.
[08:15] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, no, but "big bugs [..] " we can
[08:15] <LaserJock> s/denote/hear/ perhaps is better
[08:16] <crimsun> if we target Beta for stopping the autosync for Universe, then we gain 3 months of possible syncable RC bugfixes.
[08:16] <Hobbsee> sounds worht having
[08:16] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: A lot of these big bugs are tiny fixes.
[08:16] <TheMuso> I siply think that since we are spread so thinly, we don't know about problems until users report them sometimes.
[08:16] <Fujitsu> crimsun: As well as three months of crack-inducing post-Etch bugs.
[08:16] <Fujitsu> s/crack/bugs s/bugs/crack/
[08:16] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: got a solution to that?
[08:16] <LaserJock> TheMuso: that's a huge problem
[08:16] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: No.
[08:17] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: darn.  please find one
[08:17] <LaserJock> well, moving the autosync is one
[08:17] <LaserJock> we need to harness Debian there
[08:17] <Fujitsu> We need more users to test, but the release cycles are too short and people are advised to not test until the end.
[08:17] <LaserJock> Debian users are reporting bugs and debian maintainers are fixing them
[08:17] <LaserJock> (hopefully)
[08:17] <TheMuso> How many maintainers regularly work on their packages in Debian?
[08:17] <LaserJock> depends on the package of course
[08:17] <TheMuso> Yeah I know.
[08:17] <LaserJock> but quite a few are pretty responsive
[08:18] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: on balance of probability?  more than we do.
[08:18] <LaserJock> depends on the bug as well
[08:18] <crimsun> ok, so I feel we should discuss whether the three months of additional autosync are worth it.
[08:18] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: There are more of them. :)
[08:18] <crimsun> I feel that it would be.
[08:18] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: exactly
[08:18] <TheMuso> crimsun: So would this be post UVF?
[08:19] <Fujitsu> crimsun: I think at least an extra two, but perhaps three.
[08:19] <TheMuso> brb getting some fruit...
[08:19] <LaserJock> yeah, I'm thinking about that
[08:19] <imbrandon> crimsun, i by far feel it would be too
[08:19] <Fujitsu> 2 would align with UVF.
[08:19] <crimsun> TheMuso: it would effectively kill the current UVF.
[08:19] <TheMuso> crimsun: right
[08:19] <TheMuso> really brb
[08:19] <LaserJock> I would think moving the autosync to UVF would at least be good
[08:19] <Fujitsu> We probably can't get any more bugs in by extending it than we have now.
[08:20] <crimsun> UVF is currently one month and a few days prior to Beta Freeze
[08:21] <crimsun> so asking for autosync to run until UVF would gain nearly two months of syncable fixes/crack
[08:21] <LaserJock> well darn it, I gotta get to bed
[08:21] <Fujitsu> Night LaserJock.
[08:21] <crimsun> are we comfortable with proposing that to Tollef?
[08:21] <StevenK> But this might get turned down by the archive admins.
[08:21] <TheMuso> I'm sure the rest of the MC/tech board would have something to say...
[08:22] <LaserJock> I think autosync till UVF and then getting ajmitch's RC fix scripts rocking well would really help out
[08:22] <StevenK> Say, if the autosyncer doesn't care where a package is, be it universe or main.
[08:22] <LaserJock> that should be a bug ;-)
[08:22] <TheMuso> StevenK: I have a feeling that it doesn't.
[08:22] <Fujitsu> StevenK: Well, we'll just have to fix it... Wait, damn.
[08:22] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Exactly.
[08:22] <LaserJock> we'll just have to go on strike until it's fixed ;-)
[08:23] <StevenK> Oh yes, *that'll* help.
[08:23] <LaserJock> anyway, night all. great discussion. please somebody email -motu if there is something concrete to be tossed around
[08:23] <Fujitsu> Damn immutable critical infrastructure.
[08:23] <StevenK> This is one of the things I find a little irritating about Ubuntu.
[08:23] <Fujitsu> StevenK: Which?
[08:24] <StevenK> But a lot less irritating than Debian is.
[08:24] <crimsun> closed-source nature of critical infrastructure, I presume.
[08:24] <Fujitsu> But Debian's isn't closed...
[08:24] <Fujitsu> Oh, you mean it doesn't make it as annoying as Debian is overall?
[08:24] <StevenK> Fujitsu: The fact that you have us as community members, a big grey cloud, and then the distro team who touch the critical stuff.
[08:25] <Fujitsu> The distro team, who touch the vast minority of the archive.
[08:25] <StevenK> No, I mean that working with Ubuntu even with this irritation is less irritating than working on Debian at all.
[08:26] <StevenK> And how processes such as the autosyncer are non-transparent.
[08:27] <TheMuso> brb again...
[08:28] <Fujitsu> Well, we're stuck with the proprietary, incapable infrastructure. We just have to work around it as we've done for ever.
[08:28] <Fujitsu> It's inconvenient, but I can't see LP becoming all great in the foreseeable future.
[08:29] <StevenK> In some ways, Launchpad is better and worse than the Debian infrastructure.
[08:30] <Fujitsu> In what ways is it better?
[08:30] <crimsun> hmm, what would we do for packages autosynced in that b-d on newer main packages?
[08:31] <TheMuso> crimsun: Good point.
[08:31] <imbrandon> crimsun, thats where the problem lies
[08:31] <Fujitsu> We replace the autosyncer with a hacked up britney.
[08:33] <TheMuso> After all this, I am still pondering whether to apply for Debian maintainer.
[08:34] <crimsun> you have nothing to lose and something to gain.
[08:34] <Fujitsu> StevenK: What is it that makes Debian so irritating?
[08:34] <TheMuso> Very true.
[08:34] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Politics.
[08:35] <Fujitsu> Irritating politics versus closed, restrictive infrastructure. I think I'd take the former, as it's possible to ignore.
[08:35] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, no web interface for bug reports, politics, general slowness on getting a whole distro consinsus , tons of things
[08:35] <StevenK> Debian used to be about rough concensus and working code. Now it seems to be about flaming each other to death on mailing lists and arguing about pointless crap.
[08:35] <imbrandon> StevenK, +1
[08:36] <crimsun> politics can be crippling, however. Not that Debian is crap. Just different to Ubuntu.
[08:36] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: I don't see that first one as a problem.
[08:36] <Fujitsu> Although there is a SoC project to write a proper web interface.
[08:36] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, to each its own, to me it means no bug reporting 
[08:36] <TheMuso> I must admit, I do like the email way of reporting bugs in debian. Its efficient.
[08:37] <crimsun> I wish the crontab ran more frequently, but that's about it.
[08:37] <crimsun> much love for the email way of BTS.
[08:37] <imbrandon> email is about the farthest thing from efficient in my world
[08:37] <imbrandon> in any aspect
[08:40] <imbrandon> but thats just my 0.02c
[08:40] <imbrandon> :)
[08:40] <crimsun> of course. Different usage patterns.
[08:48] <Fujitsu> So, this seems to have sort of died.
[08:49] <crimsun> I'm not sure how to resolve the issue I mentioned above.
[08:50] <Fujitsu> Don't autosync them, and provide a list of stuff that has been skipped for that reason?
[08:52] <crimsun> would require looking deeper into the dsc, I suppose.
[08:52] <crimsun> I'm also not sure how easily that's extended [in the autosyncer] .
[08:53] <crimsun> if it's feasible and of low cost to the distro team, we could propose that universe be autosynced until UVF.
[08:57] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: you shouldnt have killed it.
[08:57] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: It does look like I did.
[08:58] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: yes.  bad Fujitsu.  now go sit in the corner and think about what you've done.
[08:58] <Fujitsu> That I shall.
[09:05] <TheMuso> heh
[09:08] <Baby> hi
[09:08] <Fujitsu> Hi Baby.
[09:08] <Baby> :)
[09:09] <Baby> how does one get a newer package in Debian into Ubuntu's repositories?
[09:09] <Fujitsu> If there are no changes, it will happen automatically.
[09:10] <Fujitsu> No Ubuntu changes, that is.
[09:10] <Baby> aha.. how long does it take?
[09:10] <Fujitsu> If there are, it will have to be merged, which will probably happen anyway.
[09:10] <Fujitsu> The autosyncer runs every few days.
[09:10] <Fujitsu> Which package?
[09:10] <Baby> swfmill
[09:10] <Fujitsu> !info swfmill gutsy
[09:10] <ubotu> Package swfmill does not exist in gutsy
[09:11] <Fujitsu> Is it a new package?
[09:11] <crimsun> yes.
[09:11] <Baby> yup
[09:11] <Fujitsu> Hm,.
[09:11] <Fujitsu> It's there though.
[09:11] <crimsun> it's awaiting binary NEW.
[09:11] <Fujitsu> Maybe not NEWed.
[09:11] <Baby> I put it into Debian some days ago
[09:11] <Fujitsu> crimsun is too fast.
[09:12] <Baby> gnash will depend on it for some checks, that's why i ask, i've been asked about that myself
[09:12] <crimsun> https://launchpad.net/+builds/+build/336963
[09:12] <crimsun> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgcrypt
[09:13] <Fujitsu> !find libgcrypt gutsy
[09:13] <ubotu> Found: libgcrypt11, libgcrypt11-dbg, libgcrypt11-dev, libgcrypt11-doc
[09:13] <Fujitsu> Missing a build-depend, I see.
[09:14] <Baby> hmm lets check
[09:14] <ASCIIGirl> Baby, o/
[09:14] <Baby> hi ASCIIGirl! :)
[09:15] <Baby> I don't think I build-depend on it
[09:17] <Baby> strange
[09:20] <crimsun> dpkg-deb: building package `swfmill' in `../swfmill_0.2.12-1_amd64.deb'.
[09:20] <crimsun> no, you're definitely missing it as a b-d.
[09:20] <crimsun> I just pbuilt it with that change to debian/control:Build-Depends
[09:21] <crimsun> it'll probably be easier for you to roll -2, then it'll sync in automatically.
[09:25] <Baby> thanks :)
[09:26] <Baby> why isn't that b-d missing in debian I wonder
[09:26] <Fujitsu> Baby: I wonder the same.
[09:27] <Baby> anyway I'll add it to -2, it's no harm
[09:27] <crimsun> it's not specific to Debian, it looks like.  Some package in Ubuntu is pulling it in.
[09:27] <crimsun> (comparing with http://buildd.debian.org/fetch.cgi?pkg=swfmill;ver=0.2.12-1;arch=i386;stamp=1178893492 )
[09:28] <Fujitsu> Doesn't that mean the Ubuntu package should depend on it?
[09:28] <crimsun> yes, I'm trying to find which package is pulling it in.
[09:29] <Fujitsu> I'd have tried, but I've got no idea how to do it.
[09:29] <Baby> no problem, I'm adding it to B-D
[09:30] <Baby> that'll be the safer way to solve that
[09:30] <Fujitsu> Baby: Not really. The Ubuntu package should depend on it, which means something here is wrong.
[09:30] <Baby> Aha, I don't do anything about that then?
[09:31] <Fujitsu> Probably not.
[09:31] <Fujitsu> We'll see what crimsun says.
[09:31] <Baby> oki, thanks :)
[09:31] <Baby> yup
[09:37] <crimsun> chroot error, it looks like.
[09:38] <crimsun> Baby: nothing wrong with -1, false alarm.
[09:38] <Baby> cool, thanks! :)
[09:38] <Fujitsu> How could a chroot error cause an extra link attempt?
[09:38] <crimsun> mismatched b-ds?
[09:39] <crimsun> a current gutsy pbuilder compiles the Debian source package fine
[09:39] <Fujitsu> Hm.
[09:43] <imbrandon> dm-mod/win 17
[09:43] <imbrandon> err
[10:10] <pochu> Good morning folks!
[10:10] <pochu> elkbuntu: are you using feisty?
[10:26] <elkbuntu> pochu, i am, yes. why?
[10:26] <gnomefreak> pochu: she was
[10:26] <gnomefreak> ah still is
[10:26] <gnomefreak> morning elkbuntu :)
[10:26] <elkbuntu> morning gnomefreak
[10:31] <Adri2000> welshbyte, Fujitsu: wow, I've just seen what happened with DaD. looking at the logs, it seems that because of a md5sum mismatch on archive.u.c, the repository updates failed, and that created a wrong merge list. that's why a lot of comments disappeared. luckily I have a backup of the comments from yesterday.
[10:31] <pochu> elkbuntu: could you please take a look at Bug #103688? It's really easy to reproduce: start liferea, move to a folder, and move to another folder :)
[10:31] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 103688 in liferea "liferea crashes - ** ERROR **: file itemlist.c: line 172 (itemlist_load): assertion failed: (NULL != itemSet)" [Medium,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/103688
[10:32] <pochu> elkbuntu: the package in feisty-proposed fixes it. Could you check it and leave a comment? :)
[10:32] <gnomefreak> see and i just rebooted from feisty to gutsy :(
[10:34] <pochu> lol :/
[10:34] <pochu> anybody else is welcome to test!
[10:34] <pochu> elkbuntu: I'm asking you since you said in your Solar System mail that you use liferea :p
[10:43] <pochu> hey persia!
[10:44] <pochu> persia: thanks for your mail. I'll look at it asap (read: in ~1 hour).
[10:44] <persia> Hey pochu.  Thanks - let me know if you need anything.
[10:47] <persia> StevenK: When you have a minute, I'd like to chat about the kid3 .po files.
[10:48] <StevenK> persia: I'm eating dinner, but go ahead.
[10:49] <persia> StevenK: I was just wondering if you preserved special .po files from Ubuntu in the last merge (that I can't find in the changelog), or if there's nothing special about them (in which case I'll match Debian).
[10:50] <StevenK> Hrm.
[10:50] <persia> StevenK: Later is fine :)
[10:51] <StevenK> persia: Looking at the files I kept around, it seems I changed the control file and rules. Nothing more.
[10:51] <persia> StevenK: Thanks.
[10:52] <StevenK> persia: No problem.
[10:53] <pochu> jdong: looks like you can upload ktorrent to -proposed :) bug 110881.
[10:53] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 110881 in ktorrent "[SRU]  Citical bug cherrypicks from SVN" [Undecided,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/110881
[10:53] <StevenK> Typical. The Thai place I'm trying tonight is cheaper (by a fair amount, actually) than the place near the office, and by all accounts is better.
[11:00] <imbrandon> StevenK, sounds about on par with most things
[11:02] <StevenK> imbrandon: For food, I don't mind paying a little more, if its worth it. For what I paid at the place near the office, I was expecting the best Thai I'd ever eaten. It didn't get close.
[11:09] <imbrandon> the McD's of Thai
[11:09] <imbrandon> :)
[11:10] <imbrandon> hrm can a reiserfs filesysm be shrank online ?
[11:10] <StevenK> resize_reiserfs says unmounted.
[11:11] <imbrandon> crapballs
[11:11] <StevenK> Why you'd use ReiserFS, is beyond me.
[11:11] <imbrandon> i am switching an old server over to new hdd's
[11:11] <imbrandon> that has reiser on it
[11:11] <imbrandon> the new fs is ext3
[11:12] <StevenK> But why the need to shrink it?
[11:12] <ajmitch> because of ricerfs
[11:12] <imbrandon> because i was gonna cheat and leave /boot on it and move the / to the new fs and shrink boot to say 500MB
[11:12] <imbrandon> and LVM the rest
[11:13] <imbrandon> but now i guess i'll just move everything online to the new / ( temp mounted at /mtn/new ) and then fixup grub, reboot and then lvextend the old drives 
[11:14] <imbrandon> or something similar to that , and hope i dont screw something up
[11:15] <imbrandon> sound sane?
[11:17] <welshbyte> good morning all
[11:17] <imbrandon> ello
[11:19] <dholbach> persia: debian bug 369755 :-(
[11:19] <ubotu> Debian bug 369755 in debhelper "Use dh_iconcache to update GTK's icon cache." [Wishlist,Open]  http://bugs.debian.org/369755
[11:20] <Fujitsu> Why did I just get a whole lot of binary rejections from Soyuz?
[11:21] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: because stuff is being restarted, I suspect
[11:22] <Fujitsu> I don't see how that would cause it to reject autobuilt binaries, but you never know...
[11:22] <imbrandon> brb
[11:23] <ajmitch> it's soyuz
[11:23] <Fujitsu> I was going to say that, but I felt more LP-bashing wouldn't have been thought well of.
[11:24] <StevenK> Most Pointless Merge Ever.
[11:25] <persia> dholbach: Thanks.  I'm still not sure I understand, but I can at least see why.
[11:26] <dholbach> persia: what is your question?
[11:27] <crimsun> orion2012: hi, sorry for the lag in responding.  I'm happy to help point out some areas that you can start in, e.g., https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU#head-ec7a97d5af67e96747b4f36993232ff434f4486c
[11:27] <persia> dholbach: I need to learn more about GTK+ icon cache, the relation with KDE, freedesktop standards, and current plans for various transitions in Debian before I can ask it coherently.  When I have it defined, I'll ask again :)
[11:28] <StevenK> Half the reason that bug remains unfixed is joeyh doesn't like us changing debhelper.
[11:29] <persia> StevenK: I thought there were some good points about cache coherency, directory choices, and the burden on maintainers listed in the bug threads, but as I said, I'm not informed enough to have a real opinion yet.
[11:30] <dholbach> persia: gtk-update-icon-cache generates a cache file for a given icon theme - gtk uses it (in gnome and xfce) and uses less memory and is quicker - kde doesn't use it -- it's painful to have the diff in ubuntu, but there's not much I can do about it atm :-/
[11:33] <persia> dholbach: Interesting.  I was just merging a QT based program that used dh_iconcache, and now definitely should learn more.  Given the bug threads, I wouldn't expect anything could be done in the short (or even medium) term.  Please don't feel any pressure from me :)
[11:34] <dholbach> persia: it uses dh_iconcache, because (I guess) it installs an icon to usr/share/icons/hicolor (which is used in gnome/xfce apps as well) - installing a file to that dir needs updating the cache
[11:35] <persia> dholbach: I suspect as much.  Thanks again.
[11:36] <dholbach> if you have any questions, let me know
[11:56] <orion2012> crimsun: OK, thanks
[12:18] <pgquiles> could any admin please change bug 115943 importance to "wishlist"?
[12:18] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 115943 in Ubuntu "ITP libsnmp++ needs packaging" [Undecided,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/115943
[12:19] <TheMuso> Done.
[12:20] <pgquiles> TheMuso: thank you
[12:20] <TheMuso> pgquiles: You're welcome.
[12:20] <pgquiles> by the way, I need reviewers/advocates for libtomcrypt (http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5231)
[12:20] <TheMuso> I'll have a look in a minute.
[12:22] <pgquiles> TheMuso: thank you
[12:46] <pochu> persia: we might want to add a patch system to wx2.8... it would make things easier :)
[12:48] <persia> pochu: There's no Debian package, so I don't see why we shouldn't.  Do you prefer dpatch or quilt?
[12:50] <StevenK> Quilt. Shiver.
[12:50] <persia> StevenK: You don't like quilt?
[12:50] <StevenK> I just prefer dpatch over it.
[12:50] <pochu> persia: I don't really mind. dpatch is fine with me.
[12:51] <persia> Two of the packages I watch changed from dpatch to quilt for gutsy, and while more complicated, it seemed more flexible.
[12:52] <persia> pochu: Let's use dpatch then.
[12:53] <pochu> ok, cool :)
[12:54] <persia> pochu: Also, I recommend sending any compile fixes, etc back to Vadim.  He seems happy to apply things, and is very eager to see distribution :)
[12:55] <pochu> :)
[12:56] <pochu> persia: I think we just have one fix which isn't applied in 2.8 (but is in trunk): bug 91853
[12:56] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 91853 in wxwidgets2.8 "extra semicolon breaks compile when -pedantic used, fixed upstream" [Medium,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/91853
[12:57] <persia> pochu: That matches my read, and Vadim isn't subscribed to that bug, so it might not get upstream without a push.
[12:58] <persia> nevermind - didn't read correctly.  Is it still missing in 2.8.4?
[12:58] <pochu> Yes, it is.
[12:58] <persia> Hrm.
[01:02] <imbrandon> ohhh 5ghz power6's get announced tomarrow :)
[01:02] <TheMuso> imbrandon: nice.
[01:02] <TheMuso> Must run bloody hot.
[01:02] <imbrandon> heh , but power soooo rocks imho
[01:03] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[01:03] <imbrandon> http://www.theregister.com/2007/05/20/ibm_power6_oracle/
[01:06] <StevenK> Mmmmm, the Power arch
[01:27] <ajmitch> ScottK: congrats :)
[01:28] <DarkSun88> Hi all
[01:31] <pschulz01> Evening.. where can I find information on how to populate a '-dev' package..  
[01:32] <pschulz01> I have used 'dh_make' to create a library package and a '-dev', and it uses 'the GNU autotools' so that's all cool.. except I meed to know how to get the *.h's into the '-dev' package.
[01:33] <pschulz01> (wondering if there is a make command in the GNU autoconf tools that should set that up foe me.
[01:33] <persia> pschulz01: I suggest debian/libfoo-dev.install.  Take a look at a few other library packages for examples.
[01:34] <pschulz01> persia: Ta.
[01:34] <ScottK> ajmitch: Thanks.  Now I get to have less time for my own Ubuntu work because people will be pestering me to review theirs.
[01:35] <persia> ScottK: You'll get down to zero productivity :)
[01:35] <pschulz01> persia: There isn't a 'libfoo' package :-p
[01:35] <persia> !foo
[01:35] <ubotu> foo is bar
[01:35] <imbrandon> ScottK, hahah welcome to the club :)
[01:35] <imbrandon> and always returns -1
[01:35] <welshbyte> ScottK: congrats :)
[01:36] <persia> pschulz01: No, but there are a lot of packages that are of the form lib<something>-dev, most of which would probably be a good example.  My apologies for the confusion.
[01:36] <StevenK> Nah, it mallocs 4 bytes, and returns a char * to 'baz\0'
[01:36] <pschulz01> persia: There should be a libfoo (aka. libhello)
[01:36] <persia> StevenK: Please malloc() 8 bytes :)
[01:36] <persia> pschulz01: StevenK is working on it :)
[01:37] <pschulz01> persia: Can you suggest a package? Small, c / GNU autoconf based?
[01:38] <pschulz01> persia: libreadline?
[01:38] <ranf> hello
[01:40] <persia> pschulz01: I don't think libreadline is a small simple example.  I'll hunt one down.
[01:41] <StevenK> persia: Bah, why return baz in UTF-8? :-P
[01:44] <Dabian> Hi, what does it take to become MOTU?
[01:44] <StevenK> Madness.
[01:45] <StevenK> Oh wait, that isn't strictly necessary.
[01:45] <imbrandon> it comes with it though
[01:45] <imbrandon> Dabian, http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU is a good place to start
[01:46] <StevenK> == CreateCerts: reverted (-0.0005s) [01:46] <StevenK> Yay, Rails!
[01:46] <Dabian> Oh .. I need a sponsor?
[01:47] <imbrandon> well for your first uploads yes
[01:48] <Dabian> I only have one project right now.
[01:48] <Dabian> The jde-package is somewhat broken, and I filed a bug-report with a description of the problem.
[01:49] <Dabian> Wouldn't it be a logical place to start, to try and improve that package?
[01:49] <imbrandon> sure
[01:49] <Dabian> (I might need to add another package in order to fix it though, I am not sure)
[01:51] <ScottK> imbrandon/welshbyte: Thanks.
[01:52] <persia> pschulz01: libxml2 seems to use a dh_make style rules file and use .install files to sort the packages into which the files should go, but I'm not deeply familiar with that library, so I can't promise the packaging is perfect.
[01:53] <sacater> im not so active with hardware, but could heat give me PCI hardware trouble
[01:53] <sacater> i got that crazy syslog message again
[01:53] <sacater> it says i have a hardware problem, likely on the PCI bus
[01:54] <pschulz01> persia: Ta :-) I'm currently building readline5... but I'll try libxml2
[01:54] <ScottK> StevenK: This reference seems relevant to your lib foo project - http://lwn.net/Articles/233660/
[01:55] <ScottK> sacater: Heat can do weird things.  You aren't overclocking are you?
[01:56] <welshbyte> do new motus get announced officially somewhere? i only learned that persia and ScottK were motus from this channel
[01:56] <persia> welshbyte: On the motu-council mailing list
[01:57] <StevenK> ScottK: Old news.
[01:57] <welshbyte> ah ok, i only read the motu list
[01:58] <ScottK> StevenK: The number is old news.  I thought the responses were humorous.  It just came off subscriber lock a few days ago.
[01:58] <StevenK> Yeah, I read it over a week ago.
[01:59] <StevenK> I have a subscription to LWN thanks to being a DD - DDs can get free subscription to LWN.
[02:00] <sacater> ScottK: well my CPU is at 63'C
[02:00] <sacater> ScottK: on my old laptop
[02:00] <ScottK> Ahh.  Did not know that StevenK.
[02:00] <Fujitsu> I read it weeks ago - on debian-devel
[02:01] <xxxxx1> morning!
[02:01] <ScottK> Good morning.
[02:01] <StevenK> ScottK: Hah. I could be mean and point you at them. :-P
[02:02] <StevenK> Fujitsu: I got sick of debian-devel some time ago.
[02:02] <Fujitsu> I have over 700 unread there, but I read parts of it.
[02:03] <Fujitsu> I see that Soyuz is being its reliable self still.
[02:06] <TheMuso> ScottK: COngratulations!
[02:06] <ScottK> TheMuso: Thanks.
[02:07] <ScottK> sacater: I wouldn't swear it's not heat, but I've never seen such a thing.
[02:15] <sacater> ScottK: k, thanks anyway
[02:21] <pochu> persia: is this line ok to test wx2.8?
[02:21] <pochu> emilio:x:1000:1000:Emili Pzelo Monfort,,,,:/home/emilio:/bin/bash
[02:22] <persia> pochu: In feisty, that would crash scorched3d immediately :)
[02:22] <pochu> then it's fine :-)
[02:23] <persia> pochu: Just make sure it's valid UTF8.  THe previous code works for some other encodings.
[02:23] <persia> pochu: Great.  Thanks for testing.  Where can I find the package?
[02:24] <pochu> persia: 2.8.4.0? Do you want the source or the debs?
[02:24] <persia> pochu: tar.gz, .dsc, and .diff.gz :)
[02:25] <pochu> I have to upload it, but first let's test it ;)
[02:27] <persia> pochu: :)
[02:29] <pochu> persia: the game looks good ;)
[02:30] <persia> pochu: It depends on wxwidgets2.6, so it's not really a good test for wx2.8, but it is a good game.  I'll look for the package in about 6 hours?
[02:30] <joejaxx> pochu: :P
[02:31] <joejaxx> pochu: scorched earth is better
[02:31] <pochu> :/
[02:32] <persia> joejaxx: Does it work on Ubuntu AMD64?
[02:33] <pochu> persia: so is there any other thing I can use to test? :)
[02:34] <persia> pochu: amule depends on wx2.8.
[02:34] <pochu> yes, it does
[02:35] <pochu> but it wasn't crashing with 2.8.3.0
[02:35] <pochu> persia: amule starts and seems to work fine here.
[02:36] <persia> pochu: That's OK.  2.8.4 is just an upstream request - not required for any bug fix.  I didn't see anything in the changelog that worried me.  Let's put it in the archive, and watch the bugs :)
[02:36] <ScottK> persia: Would you please test the feisty-proposed package for your Bug #112140 and comment on the bug...
[02:36] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 112140 in pythoncad "pythoncad fails to exit when all windows are closed" [Medium,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/112140
[02:36] <Dabian> Is the first step to find a mentor?
[02:37] <ScottK> Dabian: The way that worked for me was to dive in, go to work, and ask questions when you have them.  You are not required to have a dedicated mentor.
[02:37] <persia> ScottK: Sure.
[02:37] <Hobbsee> hey all!
[02:38] <ScottK> Heya Hobbsee
[02:38] <pochu> Hi Hobbsee 
[02:38] <Hobbsee> ScottK: congratulations :)
[02:38] <TheMuso> Evening Hobbsee.
[02:38] <ScottK> Hobbsee: Thanks.
[02:39] <Dabian> ScottK: I am very confused on how to get started ... I have a bugged package that I think I might be able to fix .. but in several ways and I'm not sure which way would suit ubuntu best.
[02:39] <Hobbsee> :)
[02:39] <ScottK> Dabian: What bug?
[02:39] <Dabian> ScottK: I cant remember the number off hand .. lemme find it.
[02:40] <StevenK> ScottK: Belated congratualtions, btw. :-)
[02:40] <persia> Dabian: Alternately, if you would prefer a mentor, ask for one (either here, or based on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentors)
[02:40] <ScottK> StevenK: Thanks.
[02:45] <TheMuso> Night folks.
[02:45] <jsgotangco> me too gotta crash
[02:46] <ScottK> Good night.
[02:55] <Dabian> persia: Would someone be able and willing to teach a debian-packager how to do things "the ubuntu way" ?
[02:58] <ScottK> Dabian: If you are a Debian packager, you know about 98% of the Ubuntu way already.
[02:58] <persia> Dabian: I would recommend reviewing https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School (and other resources from MOTU/) to get a grounding.  You could also try contacting one of the Mentoring volunteers.
[02:58] <ScottK> Dabian: I'll be glad to answer questions here if I'm around.
[02:58] <Dabian> ScottK: Cool
[02:59] <ScottK> Dabian: Did you find the bug?
[03:00] <ScottK> Good morning leonel.  Thanks for testing the pythoncad fix.
[03:01] <Dabian> ScottK: Not yet .. its in the universe .. I am not sure sure how to find the package.
[03:01] <ScottK> What package?
[03:01] <Dabian> ScottK: jd
[03:01] <Dabian> argh
[03:01] <Dabian> ScottK: jde
[03:02] <ScottK> Dabian: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/jde
[03:02] <ScottK> Dabian: Two open bugs against jde.  Which did you want to fix?
[03:03] <Dabian> what I want to know is how UBUNTU-devels go harvesting debian apps and how a debian package maintainer  can help, how to get security fixes into ubuntu after UBUBTU has grabbed a package, etc
[03:04] <Dabian> ScottK: Lemme check
[03:04] <Dabian> ScottK: How did you find it?
[03:04] <Dabian> 115527                    
[03:05] <leonel> ScottK: your welcome   
[03:05] <ScottK> Dabian: Another thing to know about here is the bot and bug numbers: bug 115527
[03:05] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 115527 in jde "Compile from menu fails if you don't use xemacs" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/115527
[03:06] <StevenK> When did imbrandon get shutters installed?
[03:07] <ScottK> Dabian: You have a proposed fix then that can be packaged?
[03:07] <imbrandon> shudders
[03:07] <imbrandon> some diff
[03:07] <StevenK> imbrandon: Stop trying. :-P
[03:07] <Dabian> ScottK: Well .. the problem is that the package assumes you're running xemacs 
[03:07] <Dabian> ScottK: So what I did was installing xemacs-base-support, and create a few symlinks 
[03:07] <Dabian> ScottK: That apparently fixes the problem.
[03:08] <ScottK> OK.  So you could add xemacs-base-support as a dependency and then I guess do the symlinks in postinst?
[03:10] <Dabian> ScottK: That sounds right
[03:10] <ScottK> Dabian: Do you know how your would package this if it were Debian?
[03:10] <Dabian> ScottK: I guess it might want to be a recommended package though
[03:10] <Dabian> ScottK: I'm not a debian-developer unfortunately ...
[03:11] <Dabian> ScottK: I've been through a basic course though.
[03:11] <ScottK> No, but the question was about how much you know, not what your upload rights are...
[03:11] <Dabian> ScottK: I remember lintian and linda .was used.
[03:11] <ScottK> OK
[03:12] <Dabian> ScottK: I also once repackaged jde for debian with a lot of help .. when I fixed another bug some years ago.
[03:12] <ScottK> OK
[03:12] <Dabian> ScottK: Yes .. its a "plugin" for Emacs .. makes you able to do all kinda smart things
[03:13] <Dabian> ScottK: Like searching for classes, auto-adding imports, building your project etc.
[03:13] <ScottK> Dabian: Is there a use case for KDE that does not require compiling?
[03:13] <Dabian> ScottK: This bug only affects a subset of the things that jde can do .. but a subset that includes compiling from the menu etc.
[03:13] <ScottK> KDE/JDE
[03:13] <Dabian> JDE you mean?
[03:13] <ScottK> OK
[03:13] <ScottK> Yes
[03:14] <ScottK> OK, then I agree with recommends.
[03:14] <Dabian> Well, it will syntax-hilight your code just fine
[03:14] <Dabian> ... and you can add makefiles instead of using JDE to compile.
[03:15] <Dabian> I think it would be best to require the package though ... in the sense that it its not obvious that you need to install it ...
[03:15] <ScottK> OK.
[03:15] <ScottK> Anyone else that uses JDE around with an opinion?
[03:16] <Dabian> Most people who develop in java don't know how to do proper makefiles for java, I guess, or prefer ant.
[03:16] <Dabian> Also, the package xemacs-base-support isn't very big.
[03:17] <imbrandon> man /that/ word keeps getting used
[03:17] <ScottK> Dabian: OK.  Then you need to add the dependency to debian/control and your symlink changes to the postinst.  You will also need to change the maintainer to MOTU as described here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianMaintainerField.  The version for your update will be 2.3.5.1-2ubuntu1.
[03:18] <pgquiles> TheMuso: ping
[03:18] <TheMuso> pgquiles: You sent me a contentless ping.  This is a contentless pong.  Please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I am around.
[03:18] <ScottK> imbrandon: Which word?
[03:18] <imbrandon> xemacs
[03:18] <pgquiles> TheMuso: one question about your review of libtomcrypt
[03:18] <imbrandon> s/x//
[03:19] <ScottK> Dabian: Did that mostly make sense or was it to much all at once?
[03:20] <Dabian> ScottK: I'm trying to put your instructions in a text file to understand them. :)
[03:21] <ScottK> OK.  Let me know when you have questions.  It was a lot all at once.
[03:23] <Dabian> ScottK: I realise a problem though .. the symlinks will need to appear in different places according to the version of emacs you're running.
[03:24] <Dabian> ScottK: and if you're running xemacs, you probably wont need them.
[03:24] <ScottK> Dabian: Is there perhaps a separate lib package that is actually providing what's needed?
[03:26] <Dabian> scottk: I only found the stuff in xemacs-base-support
[03:26] <ScottK> OK
[03:26] <Dabian> ScottK: I did use apt-file search
[03:26] <ScottK> OK
[03:29] <Dabian> ScottK: They're aimed at emacs-snapshot
[03:30] <ScottK> I got that.  Just trying to understand how it all relates...
[03:30] <Dabian> ScottK: Maybe I could tell jde to always look where xemacs-base-support puts them .. but I would really prefer a seperate package.
[03:30] <Dabian> ScottK: like jde-base-support
[03:30] <ScottK> You are currently getting help from a vim using Python programmer, so this Emacs/Java stuff I have to study.
[03:31] <Dabian> (Also I would need to study jde a bit to find out where to change where it looks).
[03:31] <Dabian> ScottK: hehe ok :)
[03:32] <Hobbsee> crimsun: stolen fbi off you
[03:33] <ScottK> Dabian: Looking at the JDE dependencies, it says it depends on emacs21.  If you have that installed and not snapshot, does it work?
[03:34] <Dabian> ScottK: I doubt it
[03:35] <Dabian> ScottK: Hmm .. it shouldn't depend on emacs21.
[03:35] <ScottK> https://launchpad.net/+builds/+build/336773/jde
[03:35] <Dabian> I don't know why it depends on bsh, btw.
[03:36] <Dabian> It doesn't use bsh if its installed .. it uses the bsh from xemacs-base-support
[03:37] <Dabian> ScottK: Can it be that the packages are organised differently in debian than in ubuntu and this is the root cause of the bug?
[03:37] <ScottK> Dabian: Looking at the version number, that package is a direct sync from Debian, so not in this case.
[03:37] <Dabian> ok
[03:38] <Dabian> I don't think "jde" ever worked perfectly in debian though.
[03:38] <ScottK> Dabian: Packages where there is a difference from Debian have ubuntux in the version.
[03:38] <Dabian> Ahhh :)
[03:38] <ScottK> At this point, I'd suggest try it with emacs21 and see since that appears to be what the Debian maintainer intended to support.
[03:39] <Dabian> OK
[03:39] <Dabian> BRB
[03:49] <Dabian> ScottK: I guess the way to go, is to uninstall xemacs-base-support, and install emacs21, and test if it works?
[03:49] <Dabian> abck
[03:49] <Dabian> nacl
[03:50] <Dabian> back, even.
[03:50] <ScottK> OK
[03:50] <ScottK> Yes
[03:50] <ScottK> That's what I was thinking
[03:50] <shawarma> ScottK: Maybe something provides emacs21?
[03:51] <Dabian> Lemme check
[03:51] <Dabian> apititude will reveal the truth.
[03:51] <shawarma> jde depends on either emacs21 or emacsen.
[03:51] <Dabian> ScottK: It doesn't depend on emacs21
[03:51] <Dabian> ScottK: It depends on "emacs21 | emacsen" :)
[03:52] <ScottK> Ahh.
[03:52] <Dabian> ScottK: Apparently "emacs-snapshot" and "emacs-snapshot-gtk" provides "emacsen" :)
[03:52] <bddebian> Heya gang
[03:52] <ScottK> OK.  I guess lauchpad is incomplete.
[03:52] <ScottK> heya bddebian.
[03:53] <pochu> Hello bddebian 
[03:53] <bddebian> Hi ScottK, pochu
[03:53] <ScottK> Dabian: Does is work with the actual emacsen or emacs21?  If it does, then it's a bug in emacs-snapshot-gtk I'd say.
[03:54] <Dabian> ScottK: "emacsen" is pseudo ... its used to refer to which emacs you prefer.
[03:54] <ScottK> OK
[03:54] <ScottK> Then I'd see if it works with emacs21.
[03:54] <xxxxx1> bddebian!
[03:54] <Dabian> ScottK: basicly there are two brances of emacs .. "GNU Emacs" and "XEmacs (or Lucid Emacs)"
[03:54] <bddebian> Hello xxxxx1
[03:54] <ScottK> OK
[03:55] <Dabian> ScottK: The way to do that, is to uninstall the xemacs-base-support and install emacs21, right?
[03:55] <ScottK> Dabian: I'd guess that's correct.
[03:57] <Dabian> ScottK: OK .. hold on and I will try that. :)
[03:58] <joejaxx> Hello All
[03:59] <ScottK> Hello joejaxx
[04:01] <Dabian> ScottK: As I predicted, emacs21 fails.
[04:02] <bddebian> Heya joejaxx
[04:02] <Dabian> It gives the followring error, when I try to compile:
[04:02] <Dabian> bsh: Specified BeanShell jar filed does not exist: /usr/share/emacs21/site-lisp/java/lib/bsh.jar
[04:02] <ScottK> Dabian: OK.  Not a great suprise, but I think it needed to be tested.  If emacs21 had worked, then it'd be a emacs-snapshot bug and not jde.
[04:02] <Dabian> agreed
[04:06] <ScottK> Dabian: I just confirmed the bug then.
[04:06] <Dabian> ScottK: I guess the best sollution would be to transform "xemacs-base-support" into a package with a more general name, and let jde depend on it, and modify jde to look for the files where the new package places the files?
[04:06] <Dabian> (Well, extract the subset of files that jde needs from xemacs-base-support)
[04:07] <ScottK> Dabian: This is where you need someone who knows the packages better I think.  If xemacs is from a different fork of emacs, then it seems something like that would be in order.
[04:08] <Dabian> xemacs is a different fork of emacs. :)
[04:08] <Dabian> emacs21 and emacs-snapshot is the version of emacs currently supported by the GNU Project.
[04:08] <ScottK> Generally, yes or find out which files are needed and double check GNU emacs doesn't provide them somewhere.
[04:09] <Dabian> ScottK: The files seems very specific for jde.
[04:09] <Dabian> ScottK: Maybe not all of xemacs-base-support ... but those that I symlink to.
[04:09] <ScottK> Right.  
[04:11] <Dabian> I have the feeling that the one who packaged jde and xemacs-base-support didn't use GNU Emacs, and maybe didn't program too much in java either.
[04:12] <Dabian> There are still bugs even though you apply my sollution.  I still get an error .. but at least it works  :)
[04:13] <ScottK> Dabian: One solution might be to break the xemacs-base-support into two binary packages and have the second provide the needed stuff for JDE.
[04:13] <Dabian> Right
[04:13] <ScottK> Dabian: Once you get a sane general solution worked out, I can help you package it, but won't be a lot of use with the specifics (as you no doubt have noticed by now).
[04:14] <Dabian> Oh .. you're a great help
[04:14] <Dabian> But I understand that you're not an expirienced emacs-user. :)
[04:16] <Dabian> ScottK: I found a list in xemacs-base-support package on the files that is related to jde:
[04:17] <Dabian> /usr/share/xemacs21/xemacs-packages/pkginfo/MANIFEST.jde
[04:17] <Dabian> Thats basicly a list of files related to jde.
[04:19] <ScottK> OK.  I am officially the least experienced MOTU here.  Even less the bddebian (he'll get the joke).  I think we need advice on how to proceed at this point.  Any Emacs using, Java programming MOTUs about?
[04:19] <bddebian> Wow, that's like double evil :)
[04:20] <leonel> does emacs uses  grub to boot ?  :)
[04:21] <bddebian> heh
[04:21] <bddebian> No, I'm sure it has it's own boot loader ;-P
[04:21] <leonel> hehe
[04:22] <Dabian> bddebian: It does.   Porting it to grub sounds like an interesting project though. =)
[04:25] <Dabian> I guess vi and c++ is very popular in here?
[04:25] <Hobbsee> and python
[04:25] <leonel> and me ..
[04:26] <leonel> no not  me
[04:26] <leonel> sorry ..
[04:26] <Dabian> leonel: What do you use for an editor?
[04:26] <bddebian> nano, what else is there? ;-P
[04:26] <Hobbsee> ewww
[04:26] <leonel> vim 
[04:27] <xxxxx1> ed
[04:27] <xxxxx1> heh
[04:27] <Dabian> leonel: And language?
[04:27] <Dabian> xxxxx1: I like ed too :)
[04:27] <leonel> python
[04:27] <leonel> even  once  I've tried   programing  with :
[04:27] <xxxxx1> vim rlz
[04:27] <Dabian> Hobbsee: What do you use?
[04:27] <leonel>   cat >  script.py 
[04:27] <leonel> :)
[04:28] <Hobbsee> Dabian: ?  kate and vim.
[04:28] <Dabian> leonel: cat isn't very gracious as to fixing errors, but its useable to get started.
[04:28] <leonel> jeje
[04:28] <Dabian> Hobbsee: AHh .. I misread your action.
[04:28] <Treenaks> Hobbsee: so.. who's Kate :P
[04:28] <Hobbsee> Treenaks: the secretary :P
[04:29] <Treenaks> Hobbsee: she must type _fast_ then :)
[04:29] <Dabian> Hobbsee: I thought it was the editor, but maybe she has been replaced?
[04:29] <Hobbsee> heh
[04:29] <leonel> Dabian: even  a long time   i've used  Java  but droped  because it was not  free software  so now with openjdk  comming  I'll maybe take  it again  
[04:29] <Dabian> leonel: I am very exited about that.
[04:30] <Dabian> leonel: I was considering dropping java for the same reason.
[04:30] <leonel> Dabian: yes it is great
[04:30] <ScottK> Treenaks: Serious answer is Kate is the advanced text editor in KDE.  Very nice (I like it too).
[04:30] <Treenaks> ScottK: I know :)
[04:30] <Dabian> I used to hate emacs.   I couldn't figure out how to use it, so I sticked to vi.
[04:30] <ScottK> Treenaks: OK.  
[04:31] <Dabian> Now I know too, though. :)
[04:31] <Dabian> I just knew that it was some editor.
[04:44] <jussi01> afternoon peoples!
[04:45] <bddebian> Hello jussi01
[04:45] <jussi01> hello bddebian
[04:45] <ScottK> bddebian: Do you want to take courier merging back?
[04:47] <bddebian> ScottK: Possibly, but I'm swamped at work lately :(
[05:01] <ScottK> Now that I'm a MOTU, for merges, I attach the debdiff and subscrbe the archive, right?
[05:04] <xxxxx1> ScottK: 8)
[05:06] <shawarma> ScottK: I can't tell if you're kidding, but if not: No, you just upload it. Yay!
[05:07] <bddebian> ScottK is an MOTU now?  Scary ;-P
[05:07] <ScottK> bddebian: Yes.  As of today.
[05:08] <bddebian> w00t, congrats
[05:08] <lionel> congrats ScottK :)
[05:08] <Dabian> ScottK: Creating a whole new ubuntu-package is probably not easy for me .. could I just apt-get source xemacs-base-support and remove the parts I don't like, change the path etc?
[05:08] <ScottK> lionel: Thanks.
[05:08] <Dabian> ScottK: Congratulations!
[05:08] <ScottK> Dabian: THanks.  Change the name too.  Yes.  I'd think so.
[05:09] <ScottK> Then upload it to REVU.
[05:09] <ScottK> !REVU
[05:09] <ubotu> REVU is a web-based tool to give people who have worked on Ubuntu packages a chance to "put their packages out there" for other people to look at and comment on in a structured manner. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU
[05:10] <xxxxx1> !gutsy
[05:10] <ubotu> Gutsy Gibbon is the code name for the next release of Ubuntu (7.10). See https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2007-April/000276.html and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyReleaseSchedule Support in #ubuntu+1
[05:13] <jussi01> ScottK: congrats!!
[05:13] <ScottK> jussi01: Thanks.
[05:13] <ASCIIGirl> sorry is packages.ubuntu.com working?
[05:13] <shawarma> ASCIIGirl: Probably not
[05:13] <ASCIIGirl> aw :(
[05:14] <ScottK> ASCIIGirl: You can probably find out what you were looking for through launchpad.
[05:15] <ASCIIGirl> thx ScottK 
[05:17] <ScottK> shawarma: Thanks.  It's a little different sitting on this side of the fence.
[05:18] <jussi01> ScottK: you got a minute?
[05:18] <ScottK> A minute
[05:19] <jussi01> heh, can you take another look at mnemsyne for me? I still cant work out where im going wrong - please if you have time, test build and install it... it builds nicely, but install is wonky...
[05:19] <jussi01> that would be mnemosyne even :D
[05:20] <jikanter> hey, is there any way I can generate apport traces for myself without downloading all the debug symbol packages, as it slows down my (already slow) machine?
[05:20] <jussi01> thanks a million ScottK
[05:24] <ScottK> Does something have to be synced so that I can comment on other people's stuff in REVU?
[05:25] <\sh> doko, do you plan to add the gnu "d" (gcd) compiler to the existent gcc toolchain for gutsy? 
[05:25] <\sh> hmm.wrong channel ;)
[05:25] <leonel> !revu
[05:25] <ubotu> REVU is a web-based tool to give people who have worked on Ubuntu packages a chance to "put their packages out there" for other people to look at and comment on in a structured manner. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU
[05:25] <bddebian> ScottK: The keyring probably needs synced
[05:26] <man-di> \sh: and he is offline today he said
[05:26] <\sh> man-di, he'll catch up :)
[05:27] <ScottK> bddebian: Thanks.  Anyone about who can resync REVU?
[05:28] <bddebian> ScottK: That's the REVU admins
[05:31] <jussi01> LaserJock: can do it...if he is around
[05:31] <bddebian> or ajmitch
[05:32] <shawarma> ScottK: Yeah. :) It's much easier on this side.
[05:33] <ScottK> shawarma: Easier yes, but different and for at least today new for me...
[05:35] <shawarma> ScottK: I found that the processes as a proper MOTU are easier to get the hang of than those of the "hopfuls".
[05:35] <shawarma> hopefuls, even.
[05:36] <ScottK> Well I think I'm ready to dput my first merge...
[05:37] <jussi01> ScottK: nice!! :D
[05:37] <nixternal> woohoo!
[05:37] <nixternal> ScottK: do itttttt!!!!
[05:37] <nixternal> hehe
[05:38] <ScottK> May as well.  There's plenty of time to fix it if I mess it up....
[05:38] <bddebian> heh
[05:38] <nixternal> haha
[05:38] <jussi01> lol
[05:39] <siretart> ScottK: congrats!
[05:39] <ScottK> siretart: Thanks.
[05:41] <ScottK> OK.  That's one then...
[05:41] <nixternal> ya congrats ScottK!
[05:42] <ScottK> nixternal: Thanks.  When are you going to apply.  If they took me ...
[05:42] <nixternal> probably sometime during this cycle
[05:42] <nixternal> probably won't file an application until a sponsor says "damn, apply already"
[05:47] <ScottK> Cool.  Got my first accept from the archive.
[05:47] <jussi01> nice
[05:48] <imbrandon> hrm
[05:48] <imbrandon> i got a lvm issue , anyone get a sec ?
[05:48] <imbrandon> got*
[05:48] <jussi01> imbrandon: I think your wanted over in #ubuntustudio-devel
[05:50] <ScottK> jussi01: Run lintian on the .deb file and have a look at the warnings/errors.  
[05:50] <jussi01> ScottK: ok
[05:53] <pochu> ScottK: congrats! Now I have another possible sponsor ;)
[05:53] <bddebian> heh
[05:54] <ScottK> pochu: Thanks.
[05:59] <jussi01> ScottK: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/21837/ i can fix 1 and 5, but 2,3 and 4???
[05:59] <LaserJock> jussi01: are my revu admin services still needed?
[05:59] <LaserJock> ;-)
[05:59] <jussi01> even 2 and 3 are ok
[05:59] <ScottK> LaserJock: It was me that needed it.  Let me check
[05:59] <jussi01> ScottK: sorry 3 and 4, but 2...
[06:00] <ScottK> LaserJock: I'm in the REVU team on LP now, but I still can't comment on other's uploads.  I gather REVU needs to be resynced.
[06:01] <LaserJock> it's a manual process
[06:01] <ScottK> jussi01: You are saying you need help with #2?
[06:01] <ScottK> LaserJock: OK.  Can/Would you do said manual process then?  Who should I ping?
[06:02] <LaserJock> ScottK: what's the email you use?
[06:02] <ScottK> scott@kitterman.com
[06:04] <LaserJock> ScottK: done
[06:04] <ScottK> LaserJock: Thanks.
[06:04] <LaserJock> just reload and review away
[06:04] <ScottK> LaserJock: Works.
[06:05] <ScottK> jussi01: Are you there?
[06:08] <jussi01> ScottK: sorry, had to take a dump...
[06:08] <jussi01> ScottK: yes, number 2 is my issue...
[06:09] <ScottK> OK.  You have another one too.
[06:09] <jussi01> ScottK: ?
[06:10] <ScottK> jussi01: If you unpack the .deb (I do this with ark) you will see that there is an empty /lib dir in your package.
[06:10] <ScottK> jussi01: It looks to me like that's from the hard coded path in line 117 of setup.py
[06:12] <jussi01> ah...
[06:12] <jussi01> ouch, how would i go about fixing that?
[06:12] <ScottK> Fix setup.py not to use a hard coded path into /lib.
[06:13] <jussi01> ScottK: can you point me to a tutorial on patching then?
[06:13] <jussi01> Im still unsure how patching works...
[06:13] <jussi01> I assume i have to use a patch to fix it... I can just go in there an change stuff...
[06:14] <ScottK> jussi01: If it's a small change, you can edit directly.  It'll be easier in the long run to patch it (otherwise you'll have to re-edit the file with every upstream update).
[06:15] <ScottK> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PatchingSources and look at cdbs with simple-patchsys.  WIth cdbs-edit-patch it's dead easy.
[06:15] <jussi01> ScottK: ok, im interested to learn how to patch anyway because im sure Ill have to use it in the future
[06:16] <jussi01> ScottK: cool
[06:24] <ScottK> jussi01: Another option would be to switch to pysupport.
[06:28] <ScottK> jussi01: See my additional comments on REVU
[06:29] <jussi01> ScottK: thanks, Ill have a read.
[06:42] <jussi01> ScottK: 
[06:42] <jussi01> make: dh_pysupport: Command not found
[06:42] <jussi01> make: *** [binary-install/mnemosyne]  Error 127
[06:43] <jussi01> it gives me that error when i switch to pysupport, what am I missing?
[06:43] <dholbach> jussi01: python-support build-depends?
[06:43] <ScottK> jussi01: Yes
[06:44] <ScottK> Also change the python system you are using in debian/rules
[06:44] <jussi01> gah, now you make me feel stupid, 
[06:44] <jussi01> ScottK: I did the second bit, but just forgot the vuild dep...
[06:44] <jussi01> gah
[06:44] <concept10> what is commonly used to package?  pbuilder or debhelper?
[06:44] <jussi01> concept10: both
[06:45] <concept10> jussi01, what is the choice based on?
[06:45] <jussi01> concept10: they do different things
[06:45] <dholbach> debhelper and pbuilder are not exclusive at all
[06:47] <dholbach> one is used in the package build system (like common scripts you use in a Makefile), pbuilder test-builds the package in a chrooted environment
[06:47] <concept10> well, I personally know of 4 ways to package .debs. Im trying to see what you guys standardize on.
[06:47] <dholbach> pbuilder is not a way of packaging things
[06:47] <jussi01> concept10: ^^ listen to him...
[06:48] <dholbach> it's a tool to test build packages (once the source package is done)
[06:48] <concept10> dholbach, okay, gotcha
[06:48] <dholbach> right
[06:52] <concept10> dholbach, so, which method do you commonly use?
[06:52] <dholbach> I mostly use CDBS to package new packages
[06:52] <dholbach> and test build packages in pbuilder
[06:53] <jussi01> concept10: debhelper is still ok to use also - i used it on my last package
[06:53] <dholbach> https://perso.duckcorp.org/duck/cdbs-doc/cdbs-doc.xhtml
[06:54] <Treenaks> dholbach: *wave*
[06:54] <concept10> dholbach, thanks.
[06:54] <dholbach> anytime :)
[06:55] <jussi01> brilliant, just brilliant... :D
[07:07] <blueyed_> How can I find the missing -dbg/-dbgsym packages, if "bt" in gdb does not show up all stack frames?
[07:09] <blueyed_> e.g. I want to find the files of the missing entries here: http://pastebin.ca/500598 (it's about beagle/mono)
[07:19] <\sh> re
[07:38] <tsmithe> man-di: you around?
[07:47] <xxxxx1> why most pkgs are using Source-Version instead of source:Version ?
[07:47] <geser> they have been updated yet
[07:47] <mshima> Hello, I am trying to upload to revu. I've followed every step at MOTU wiki, but the package didn't showed up at revu site.
[07:48] <geser> this feature is only available since dpkg 1.13.19 (or something like that)
[07:48] <Simon80> mshima: did you wait 5 minutes?
[07:48] <mshima> yes
[07:48] <geser> have you requested a resync of the keyring?
[07:48] <mshima> I sent it saturday
[07:49] <mshima> by email
[07:49] <Simon80> did you get a response?
[07:49] <mshima> no
[07:49] <Simon80> you'll probably have to wait for that
[07:49] <highvoltage> is it true that Mom is evil? I've read some terrible, terrible things about it.
[07:49] <Simon80> I got a response when I requested a resync
[07:50] <mshima> ok
[07:51] <mshima> the response was quick?
[07:51] <bddebian> highvoltage: I heard that DaD is cheating on MoM ;-P
[07:51] <Simon80> I really, really like cdbs, now that I just found out that buildcore handles config.{guess,sub} for you
[07:51] <highvoltage> bddebian: that doesn't sound worse than http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4820131.html
[07:51] <\sh> phew
[07:51] <Simon80> I got a response the same day, actually
[07:52] <\sh> at least umts works at our new place
[07:52] <Simon80> I don't remember if I bugged someone in this channel though
[07:52] <bddebian> highvoltage: Egads
[07:52] <highvoltage> bddebian: egads?
[07:52] <mshima> thanks simon
[07:54] <bddebian> highvoltage: Like "yikes"
[08:04] <Amaranth> elkbuntu: the latest RC of the radeon driver supports 3d acceleration for your 200m (if you have a new enough drm/kernel)
[08:08] <Dabian> Do you guys know if ATI (AMD) really dropped the plans about blocking ("protecting") the framebuffer with DRM, and if they did, where I might get confirmation online?
[08:09] <ScottK> nixternal: Interested in a merge that will stretch your MOTU hopeful legs?
[08:17] <nixternal> ScottK: what's uP?
[08:18] <ScottK> nixternal: courier is in need of a merge and it's an 'interesting' experience.  Thought you might want to give it a shot.
[08:18] <nixternal> I can take a look at it
[08:18] <ScottK> OK.  There's an open init related bug you might want to look at while you are at it.
[08:19] <nixternal> k
[08:23] <pochu> IME?
[08:24] <ScottK> In My Experience
[08:25] <pochu> yeah, I've learnt something new today :-)
[08:26] <nixternal> ScottK: that bug should actually be against courier-authlib
[08:27] <ScottK> nixternal: Thanks.  I'll go fix it then.
[08:45] <xxxxx1> ScottK: in case of a .tar.bz2 upstream code
[08:45] <ScottK> Yes
[08:45] <xxxxx1> ScottK: is useful a get-orig-source to create .tar.gz ?
[08:45] <joejaxx> keescook: how can i see security bugs related to a certain ubuntu release?
[08:45] <ScottK> xxxxx1: I've not had to deal with a tar.bz2 source, so I'd just have to go look it up.  I remember that whichever Debian doc covers rules with orig.tar.gz discusses what to do with bz2 sources too.
[08:45] <joejaxx> oh nevermind launchpad has them sort of labelled
[08:45] <keescook> joejaxx: yeah, depends on what kind of detail you want.
[09:05] <nixternal> courier building away, burning up cpu cycles
[09:16] <nixternal> pbuilder-gutsy, not -feisty dangit!
[09:47] <nixternal> ScottK: or other MOTUs for that matter -> Malone Bug 116050
[09:47] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 116050 in courier "[Gutsy MoM]  Please Merge Courier (0.53.3-6ubuntu1)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/116050
[09:57] <xxxxx1> hello LaserJock
[09:58] <joejaxx> hello LaserJock 
[10:04] <LaserJock> hi xxxxx1 and joejaxx 
[10:04] <joejaxx> :)
[10:07] <Adri2000> DktrKranz: could you, in your sync requests, specify the debian component where to sync from? having the ubuntu component too is even better, but I'm not sure it's mandatory
[10:07] <DktrKranz> Adri2000, do you mean {main,contrib,non-free} one?
[10:07] <Adri2000> yes
[10:08] <DktrKranz> I'll do
[10:08] <Adri2000> thanks, do it for bug #116047, I'll ACK it
[10:08] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 116047 in wordtrans "Please sync wordtrans 1.1pre14-5 from Debian unstable" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/116047
[10:09] <DktrKranz> thanks, I'll insert both from now on
[10:15] <Q-FUNK> hm. I have a new host with a single NIC that insists on calling itself eth2, instead of eth0.  what could cause this and how do I fix it?
[10:17] <_MMA_> Q-FUNK: Edit the iftab file?
[10:17] <ScottK> Why do you care?
[10:17] <_MMA_> OCD maybe? :)
[10:18] <_MMA_> Certainly valid.
[10:19] <DktrKranz> Adri2000: done, could you please check at bug #116047 ?
[10:19] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 116047 in wordtrans "Please sync wordtrans 1.1pre14-5 from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/116047
[10:19] <_MMA_> Q-FUNK: /etc/iftab might help.
[10:19] <ScottK> nixternal: The debdiff does not apply.  Several of the hunks in the po files faile.
[10:20] <nixternal> hrmm
[10:20] <joejaxx> elkbuntu: oh i wanted to tell you the fluxbuntu logo has changed
[10:21] <ScottK> Adri2000: Looking at the difference between the MoM and DaD proposed patches for courier might be instructive for you.  There are a number of places where DaD declares a conflict that MoM manages to work it out.
[10:22] <ScottK> nixternal: I vaguely recall having to do something with the po files, but unfortunately I don't recall what.
[10:22] <nixternal> let me take a quick look
[10:24] <ScottK> nixternal: Of course given my long experience as a MOTU, I'm sure I didn't screw it up. ;-)
[10:24] <nixternal> I am noticing something goofy between Debians version and the Ubuntu version with the debian/po dirs
[10:25] <minghua> PO files are alwasy tricky
[10:25] <nixternal> ya, they have yet to agree with me on the first go round
[10:26] <minghua> sometimes upstream doesn't update their POT/PO files and the packager is in trouble
[10:26] <Adri2000> DktrKranz: ACKed
[10:27] <DktrKranz> Adri2000, thanks :)
[10:30] <Adri2000> ScottK: argh, .po's...
[10:30] <ScottK> nixternal: It was a clean Debian 0.53.3-6 that I tried to apply the patch to.
[10:30] <nixternal> hrmm
[10:30] <nixternal> I debdiffed against 0.53.3-6.dsc
[10:31] <ScottK> You would think that would work out...
[10:32] <Adri2000> nixternal: .po changes in courier aren't actual ubuntu changes, you can clean the debdiff, so that it can be applied
[10:33] <joejaxx> anyone seen popey?
[10:33] <joejaxx> around lately*
[10:33] <nixternal> can you explain "clean the debdiff" for me please?
[10:33] <nixternal> that is a new term for me ;)
[10:33] <dothebart> hy.
[10:34] <Adri2000> nixternal: remove by hand all the .po changes
[10:34] <nixternal> by clean, do you mean remove all po refs in it?
[10:34] <nixternal> ya
[10:34] <nixternal> OK, I kind of thought that
[10:35] <nixternal> OK, now say I did this from scratch, it would be the same as replacing the debian/po directory from the ubuntu*.dsc with the original one from the Debian package correct?
[10:35] <ScottK> Adri2000: Can you fix DaD not to think those po file changes exist?
[10:36] <Lutin> yes
[10:36] <ScottK> Lutin: Great.
[10:36] <Adri2000> Lutin: do you know *how* would we do that? :)
[10:36] <Lutin> kinda
[10:36] <ScottK> nixternal: I remember now.  I just edited them out of the patch.
[10:37] <nixternal> hehe
[10:37] <ajmitch> Adri2000: filterdiff
[10:37] <nixternal> ScottK: but you could just replace the po directories right, swap them..and then update the changelog noting the change? this way here int he future it will be documented for whoever else so they know to fix it?
[10:38] <Kmos> Adri2000: change topic and remove UDS
[10:38] <ScottK> nixternal: Makes sense.  Let's give it a shot.
[10:38] <Adri2000> ajmitch: but sometimes .po changes are real changes, which we should keep...
[10:38] <nixternal> I am doing it right now
[10:38] <Kmos> :-)
[10:38] <Adri2000> Kmos: done, but everyone can change the topic here :)
[10:38] <Kmos> yeah, don't have +t
[10:38] <Kmos> :)
[10:39] <dothebart> ScottK: willing to have another look at http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5180
[10:40] <dothebart> ?
[10:40] <ScottK> dothebart: I will look at it again, but probably not today as it's a complex package.
[10:40] <dothebart> ok, tia!
[10:44] <nixternal> ScottK: I updated bug 116050
[10:44] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 116050 in courier "[Gutsy MoM]  Please Merge Courier (0.53.3-6ubuntu1)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/116050
[10:45] <nixternal> OK
[10:45] <nixternal> now wait a second
[10:45] <nixternal> I look at the new debdiff and there are still po changes after copying them from Debian
[10:46] <nixternal> it is smaller than the previous, but still has po changes
[10:47] <Adri2000> nixternal: these changes are generated during the source package build
[10:47] <Adri2000> probably because of: "- added build depends for po-debconf"
[10:48] <nixternal> hrmm, it could be
[10:48] <ScottK> Still fails to apply, BTW.
[10:48] <nixternal> ya, I kind of figured that
[10:48] <nixternal> OK...let me do it the manual way then...argh ;)
[10:49] <ScottK> nixternal: I'll be AFK for a bit.  I'll look again when I get back.
[10:50] <nixternal> OK..I will test it here first before I ship you the debdiff
[10:53] <Adri2000> nixternal: you shouldn't paste the signed .changes in the bug report. since you are not a motu for the moment, it's not a big issue, but when you are a motu, if you put a source package with its signed .changes somewhere, anyone can take it and upload it with your name and your signature on it
[10:53] <nixternal> I was told by others to do it that way, that is why I do it
[10:54] <Adri2000> they told you to paste the *signed* file?
[10:58] <nixternal> Adri2000: yes
[10:58] <minghua> po-debconf should only touch stuff in debian/, mostly debian/po/
[10:58] <minghua> the po/*.po and debian/po/*.po shoudl be completely independent
[10:59] <minghua> nixternal: Adri2000 is right, never put a signed .changes anywhere public
[11:05] <shawarma> minghua: Wny not?
[11:05] <nixternal> ya, I want to know as well? the MOTU gods taught me that last year, unless something has changed since then
[11:06] <shawarma> Adri2000: ^^
[11:06] <nixternal> I don't have dput rights...so I can't do any evil..and if there is a MOTU who uses it to do evil, it is on them :)
[11:07] <nixternal> isn't like they can hide who uploaded it (dput)
[11:07] <ajmitch> nixternal: yes, it'll show as coming from you
[11:07] <shawarma> Everyone has dput rights. It's anonymous ftp upload. The signature on the changes file is what matters, actually.
[11:07] <nixternal> ajmitch: yes, but it also shows who uploaded it
[11:08] <ajmitch> as shawarma said..
[11:08] <shawarma> I still don't really see the problem in having a a signed .changes file lying around in a public place?
[11:08] <ajmitch> your name would be in the .changes file & on the signature, which would get ignored by anyone except revu
[11:09] <nixternal> OK, maybe it doesn't..I thought it did
[11:11] <shawarma> The signed .changes file gets sent to a public mailing lists anyhow?
[11:12] <Adri2000> shawarma: yes, but only once the package is uploaded, and once it is uploaded, you can still try to re-upload it with the signed .changes available on the ml, it will always get rejected because of the version
[11:13] <shawarma> Adri2000: Yes..
[11:13] <Adri2000> if the package hasn't been uploaded, and you put it somewhere with its signed .changes, anyone will be able to upload it, even if it was not mean to be uploaded
[11:13] <Adri2000> anyone = even a non-motu
[11:13] <shawarma> Adri2000: If I sign the .changes file, it's because I want to upload it. If someone wants to do it for me... Hey, it's their bandwidth!
[11:14] <Adri2000> and the upload will be signed by you...
[11:14] <nixternal> lol shawarma 
[11:14] <shawarma> Adri2000: The .changes file contains checksums for the other files. It's not like someone can upload bad things in my name.
[11:15] <shawarma> nixternal: :)
[11:16] <Adri2000> of course, but if you ignore that, you may put somewhere a package which is not yet ready, and if there is the signed .changes, it's dangerous
[11:17] <shawarma> Sure, but to go from that to a "putting signed .changes in public places is evil" policy is a bit of a stretch IMO.
[11:17] <Adri2000> that's why you get a 403 forbidden on all the .changes file on REVU. so that a motu can upload to revu without being afraid that someone will upload a half-done package with his name on it
[11:17] <Adri2000> files*
[11:18] <shawarma> Yes, I suppose that makes some sense.
[11:20] <minghua> I don't have much to add to what Adri2000 already said
[11:21] <minghua> I think the point is you should only sign .changes when you really do an upload
[11:21] <minghua> you should always sign your .dsc though
[11:21] <gnomefreak> .changes and .dsc no?
[11:21] <gnomefreak> ah ok
[11:22] <Adri2000> both if you are going to upload. only .dsc if you are going to give the package to someone (so that he can't upload it, but he can be sure it comes from you)
[11:25] <nixternal> ScottK: http://librarian.launchpad.net/7731444/courier.debdiff
[11:52] <welshbyte> when's the next motu meeting?
[11:53] <crimsun> has it been decided?
[11:54] <crimsun> (just reattached, haven't read backscroll or email)
[11:55] <ajmitch> no
[11:55] <ajmitch> noone wants to propose a time
[11:55] <welshbyte> crimsun: i don't know, i assumed meetings were a regular thing 
[11:55] <ajmitch> welshbyte: they are meant to be
[11:55] <ajmitch> should I just throw out a time on the mailing list?
[11:56] <welshbyte> but i guess if there's nothing to talk about, there's nothing to talk about :)
[11:56] <crimsun> yes.  Let's start with this Wed, Thurs, or Fri.
[11:56] <ScottK> nixternal: Where did the change in rfc2045/reformime.1 come from (patch fails to apply on that hunk BTW)?
[11:56] <ajmitch> oh, people have still to complain about
[11:56] <ScottK> Gotta run.  Be back later.  Told you courier was instructive....
[11:57] <geser> pick a time which fits you best as nobody has made an other proposal (yet) :)
[11:57] <gnomefreak> when a package say has build-dep libxxx without a version in control it uses the version installed shlibs defines that right?
[11:57] <nixternal> ScottK: it has always been there
[11:58] <nixternal> ScottK: you know what..it is LP breaking the debdiff
[11:58] <ScottK> nixternal: I'd guess it did.  That's the only hunk that fails.  Why is it in the debdiff at all?  There's no changelog entry to support it?
[11:59] <nixternal> -Hla!
[11:59] <nixternal> +H\['o] la!
[11:59] <nixternal> that is what it is supposed to be
[12:00] <nixternal> I think that is created because if you cat the file it gives you the funky ? character
[12:01] <nixternal> hrmm
[12:01] <gnomefreak> checking again for Mozilla nspr4 includes in /usr/include/mozilla/nspr... no   assuming this means it cant find the libnspr-dev package?
[12:01] <nixternal> once again...the Ubuntu file is different than the Debian one...I wonder if it has to do with the funky character
[12:03] <nixternal> it is the Ubuntu patch from MoM that is hosing it
[12:11] <crimsun> gnomefreak: it should be libnspr4-dev
[12:12] <crimsun> gnomefreak: (I presume you read https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-May/023618.html ...)
[12:13] <jmg_> hey all
[12:13] <jmg_> what is that cool tool for determining what a binary's dependencies are?
[12:13] <crimsun> apt-cache depends is an easy but imprecise method
[12:13] <crimsun> objdump is the harder but precise method
[12:13] <jmg_> crimsun: not using the package manager