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ljubljana [01:40] Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 22 May 22:00: Technical Board | 23 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 24 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 14:00: MOTU | 27 May 16:00: LoCo Team | 29 May 17:00: Kernel Team === lengau_ [n=lengau@c-68-53-53-39.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === _czessi [n=Czessi@dslb-088-073-006-056.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ubotu [n=ubotu@ubuntu/bot/ubotu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jsgotangco [n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Fujitsu [n=william@ubuntu/member/fujitsu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jsgotangco_ [n=jsg123@121.97.244.247] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === bashelier [n=bashelie@gov91-1-82-234-91-6.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === licio [n=licio@ubuntu/member/licio] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mbudde [n=mbudde@0x57344e62.boanxx21.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === gouki_ [n=gouki@ubuntu/member/gouki] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === fernando 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joined #ubuntu-meeting === tomsku [n=tomsku@dsl-tregw3-fe4ddf00-223.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:24] @schedule [06:24] Schedule for Etc/UTC: 22 May 20:00: Technical Board | 23 May 20:00: Edubuntu | 24 May 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 12:00: MOTU | 27 May 14:00: LoCo Team | 29 May 15:00: Kernel Team === beuno [n=martin@ubuntu/member/beuno] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === j_ack [n=jack@p508DAFCC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Lure [n=lure@89-212-19-55.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rolando-ve [n=rolando-@190.142.73.34] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lengau__ [n=lengau@c-68-53-53-39.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === j_ack_ [n=jack@p508DA935.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === j_ack__ [n=jack@p508DA589.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === slackwarelife [n=slackwar@host197-128-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pochu 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[n=doko@dslb-088-073-100-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === emonkey [n=emonkey@static-pro-212-101-27-121.adsl.solnet.ch] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === allee [n=ach@lapex-mcallee.mpe.mpg.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === beuno [n=martin@ubuntu/member/beuno] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === adilson [n=adilson@201.47.76.202.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === adilson [n=adilson@201.47.76.202.adsl.gvt.net.br] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === ausimage [n=ausimage@ubuntu/member/ausimage] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === afflux [i=fnord@pentabarf.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Burgundavia [n=corey@ubuntu/member/burgundavia] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [n=pitti@ubuntu/member/pitti] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Lure [n=lure@ubuntu/member/lure] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Technical Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 May 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 24 May 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 27 May 14:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 May 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team === ausimage [n=ausimage@ubuntu/member/ausimage] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === ausimage [n=ausimage@ubuntu/member/ausimage] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mdz [n=mdz@ip-81-1-103-136.cust.homechoice.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lengau__ [n=lengau@c-68-53-53-39.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === afflux [i=fnord@pentabarf.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === __keybuk [n=scott@wing-commander.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === iwj [n=ian@xenophobe.extern.relativity.greenend.org.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === somerville32 [n=somervil@ubuntu/member/somerville32] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:02] <__keybuk> mjg59: I don't have the context for that mail you sent === blackskad [n=blackska@d54C1A48C.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:04] __keybuk: forwarding to techboard [10:04] sent [10:05] we're up to date with MOTU applications from the MOTU council [10:05] and I'm not aware of any core-dev applications [10:05] Hobbsee was proposed for core-dev [10:05] __keybuk: has anyone reminded sabdfl already? [10:05] dholbach: oh, did I miss an email? === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:05] and was recommended by a few people [10:05] mdz: the problem is that the process is not clear yet [10:05] hence your agenda item [10:06] LaserJock also wanted in, iirc [10:06] oh sweet, not too late [10:06] dholbach: I think it should be handled similarly to ubuntu-dev [10:06] passing on recommendations to the MC works fine via mailing list [10:06] what do you think? how many recommendations by the MC would you want for that? all 5 or a simple majority? [10:06] (before we pass it on to the TB) [10:07] mdz: so would there be any IRC component? or all email? [10:07] a simple majority is fine, though of course we want to hear from developers outside of the council as well [10:07] right [10:08] I'm happy with that - I'll drop you a mail with the summary about Hobbsee and make sure the new process is in the wiki docs and announced on the list [10:08] does anybody else have questions regarding the new core-dev process? [10:08] LaserJock: I think that in most cases we'll want to do an interview as well [10:08] the application should arrive via email, and we can make arrangements from there [10:08] dholbach: yes, what is it? :) are people meant to put in an application to the MC? [10:08] well, I just would like to be clear on the whole process [10:08] not just the MC part [10:08] I think it's more useful to pass an application via email than to add a line item to the TB agenda [10:09] ah [10:09] ajmitch: I don't think it matters in which order we get those mails, as long as we have recommendations and somebody who wants to become core-dev :) [10:09] ajmitch: so if it's an application or a recommendation first shouldn't matter [10:10] right, as long as it's clear *what* is needed [10:10] mdz: I think I'm happy with my agenda point now. [10:11] what's needed is the same thing as always: testimonials, information about the candidate's activities, demonstrated knowledge and understanding of Ubuntu development in accord with UbuntuDevelopers, etc. [10:11] traditionally we would collect some of the information on a wiki page [10:11] and I think that's probably still a good idea [10:12] putting it someplace public makes it easy for future candidates to understand what's expected [10:12] so I'm thinking of a process something like this: [10:13] Sorry, I'm here now [10:14] motu discusses their intent with the motu council, gets consensus that they are ready to apply, motu council collects relevant information and submits in a bundle to TB via a wiki page, TB review and respond, usually setting up an appointment to attend a meeting [10:14] (I just heard from sabdfl; he's unavailable) [10:15] __keybuk,mjg59: comments on that proposal? === arualavi [n=Iva@84.76.94.4] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:16] <__keybuk> that sounds exactly like the procedure I thought we agreed on :p [10:16] Yes, I think that seems reasonable [10:16] __keybuk: I don't recall that we were explicit about core-dev [10:16] only about motu [10:16] <__keybuk> maybe it's just sensible enough that it sounds like we ought to have agreed on it :p [10:17] well then, ok [10:17] it just needs to be documented then [10:18] I'll take care of that [10:18] dholbach: would you update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewDeveloperProcess ? [10:18] dholbach: Thanks [10:18] de rien [10:18] it's pretty close already [10:18] I guess I'm a little unsure about the "motu council collects relevant information" part [10:18] the only thing we changed was the way information is passed around, and the order [10:19] turning up for a meeting as the first thing has always been an obstacle [10:19] Hobbsee, if I'm not mistaken, would normally be asleep during TB meetings [10:19] and we don't want to discourage people from applying because of silly things like time zones [10:20] The impression I get is that the new process is working fairly well for MOTU [10:20] __keybuk and I independently noted that the meeting time ought to be adjusted for DST [10:20] mjg59: indeed, so we're following that lead in a way [10:21] I think it's a good idea to do more by email [10:21] which raises further questions about the meeting [10:21] we could, e.g., schedule the meeting based on who submits agenda items / applies for core-dev / etc. each time [10:22] to maximize attendance, at the expense of predictability [10:22] with all the TB in one TZ (I think), is that practical? [10:22] ajmitch: The plan is for the TB to be extended [10:22] in general, any two time zones can be accomodated at once [10:22] mjg59: so I heard, eventually :) === Adri2000_ [n=adri2000@ubuntu/member/adri2000] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:22] so TB + applicant is a good combination [10:23] <__keybuk> mjg59: the one nomination sabdfl has received so far happens to *also* be in the Europe/London timezone :p [10:23] Ha [10:23] it shouldn't be necessary to have third parties turn up at the meeting, generall. the tech board can raise any questions they have for them by email [10:23] We could send mdz back to the US [10:23] But anyway [10:24] so what would you like to do? move back an hour to stay at 20h London time? [10:24] hold meetings only as needed? [10:25] 21:00 is certainly a little too late to be convenient for me [10:25] regular meetings are good to keep us in contact and active [10:25] I'd be concerned that holding meetings as needed would make the TB less visible [10:25] if we all turn up and have nothing to talk about, that's not much better :-) [10:25] We don't want people who submit items to feel as if they're causing us inconvenience by forcing a meeting to be scheduled [10:26] good point [10:26] If we don't have anything to talk about, we could just have some tea instead. [10:26] As a compromise, leave meetings scheduled but cancel them unless there's something on the agenda? [10:26] we could hold meetings at 20h, but be open to adjusting to accomodate someone with an important cause (like joining core-dev) [10:27] Yes, that seems fair [10:27] __keybuk: thoughts? [10:27] well, you could always send an email to -devel-discuss asking for things for the TB to talk about ;-) [10:27] I think people might also prefer a more obvious mechanism for causing things to be raised [10:28] more obvious than sending email to technical-board? [10:28] <__keybuk> I think that opportunistically cancelling or rescheduling the meeting would create the same effect as not scheduling in the first place [10:28] I think the docs suggest just adding things to the agenda? [10:28] they do === _czessi [n=Czessi@dslb-088-073-037-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:28] but email works as well if not better, I think [10:29] Right [10:29] Then we should fix them to state that :) [10:29] I'll take that action item [10:29] It also gives us the opportunity to ask people for more details [10:29] <__keybuk> I also thing that the value of regular meetings of the TB is less than the value of regular meetings of the CC, since the latter is primarily community-driven wherease we're primarily resolving technical disputes (which happily come up hardly at all) === finalbeta [n=gggggggg@d54C6865D.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:30] I will note that we're poor at cancelling meetings even when it's fairly clear that they're not going ahead [10:30] Like during UDS [10:31] Right now the schedule shows us having one during Ubuntu Live [10:31] (TechnicalBoardAgenda updated) [10:32] mdz: The ubuntu.com page wants updating as well [10:32] <__keybuk> I think that my preference would be to request matters via e-mail [10:32] Yes, I think I agree [10:32] <__keybuk> and if the matter requires online discussion, arrange a meeting on IRC to discuss that item [10:32] Isn't it entirely possible that TB members could subscribe to changes for that page? [10:33] <__keybuk> rather than have a fixed schedule for the meetings [10:33] Ah. [10:33] mjg59: good catch, I'll email webmaster about that === tideline [n=tideline@65.98.69.13] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:33] somerville32: It's slightly irritating to then have to track that back to somebody's email address [10:33] And relevant people can't easily be Cc:ed to begin with [10:33] <__keybuk> I also think that we should be more diligent about announcing resolutions, at least to devel or devel-announce -- including new team memebrs [10:34] agreed [10:34] we need a secretary [10:34] Any volunteers? :) === pochu poinst to Seveas :p [10:35] I'm sure we've resolved this at least once before [10:35] s/poinst/points/ [10:35] and then fallen out of the habit of posting the outcome of meetings, after several meetings without activity [10:35] Yes, I think so [10:35] I'll do one for this meeting [10:36] Ok [10:36] I think we've reached broad agreement over meeting plans [10:36] ok [10:36] any other business? [10:36] <__keybuk> have we? [10:36] <__keybuk> I thought we still had four options and no clear decision [10:36] <__keybuk> 1) retain existing schedule [10:36] <__keybuk> 2) alter meeting schedule for daylight savings [10:36] <__keybuk> 3) 1 or 2, but reschedule or cancel meetings depending on agenda items [10:36] <__keybuk> 4) ad-hoc schedule meetings to discuss items as and when they are proposed [10:37] Ah, I thought we were leaning towards (4) [10:37] As long as we're good at posting outcomes, I think we'll retain enough visibility [10:38] another option would be to come up with something which is useful for us to do together every week [10:38] s/week/two weeks/ [10:38] pochu, ? [10:38] Paintballing [10:38] <__keybuk> mjg59++ [10:38] Seveas: < mdz> we need a secretary [10:38] :) [10:39] heh [10:39] You have experience, don't you? ;) [10:39] a bit [10:39] mjg59: I was thinking something more like reviewing the work which was done on Ubuntu during the week [10:39] Ha [10:39] Yes, ok [10:39] <__keybuk> we kind of already do that every week anyway, no? [10:39] we do, but individually [10:40] we don't get together and talk about it [10:40] That arguably gives us an opportunity to ensure things are sane [10:40] and that might be healthy to do [10:40] <__keybuk> that's an interesting point [10:40] if our only official meeting activity is resolving disputes, we won't have much to say [10:40] I think I'd be happy with that [10:41] the Ubuntu developer community being such a well-oiled machine [10:41] <__keybuk> we'd need some intelligent way to define "work done on Ubuntu during the week" [10:41] and then the minutes from that meeting would be a good wrap-up for the community about what's happened === Burgundavia_ [n=corey@ubuntu/member/burgundavia] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:42] sounds like something we should talk through by email, it was just a random idea [10:42] can we settle on implementing 2) immediately and discussing other options via email? [10:42] Yes, ok [10:42] done [10:42] <__keybuk> I can live with that :) [10:42] It'll do for now [10:42] Are we onto AOB? [10:43] yes [10:43] We've received a request to take a look at Automatix - I think that's a reasonable request given the degree of interaction with the rest of the distribution [10:44] I've already taken a look over the code, so I'll write up a review document and sent it to the list? [10:44] yes, it's due for another look [10:44] mjg59: oh, fantastic [10:44] I looked at the last version, but haven't looked at the new one [10:44] Ok. I'll do that, then we can discuss it at the next meeting? [10:44] sure [10:44] <__keybuk> sure [10:44] It's probably worth noting it on the agenda, in case the developers want to provide any feedback [10:45] ok [10:45] I've got nothing else - anyone else? [10:45] I suggested via email that in fact we have the discussion in an open forem [10:45] forum, even [10:47] ok, sounds like we're done [10:47] good night, all [10:47] Ok [10:47] Thanks! === pochu wonders whether the technical-board list is open to the public. [10:47] I have a quick question. [10:47] I can't find it on l.u.c [10:48] pochu: it's not a list as such, ti's just a contact address for the technical board [10:48] so that you can email us all at one address [10:48] pochu: It's deliberately not publically archived [10:48] mdz: That explains it. Thanks :) [10:48] In order to allow confidental stuff to be brought up [10:48] If we have a public discussion, it'll be in a more obvious place :) [10:49] Sure thing. But then you might want to change the address to @ubuntu.com instead of @lists.ubuntu.com? :) [10:49] Yea, that's an implementation detail [10:49] Yeah, nothing important. 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