[01:40] <Lure> @schedule ljubljana
[01:40] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 22 May 22:00: Technical Board | 23 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 24 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 14:00: MOTU | 27 May 16:00: LoCo Team | 29 May 17:00: Kernel Team
[06:24] <highvoltage> @schedule
[06:24] <ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 22 May 20:00: Technical Board | 23 May 20:00: Edubuntu | 24 May 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 12:00: MOTU | 27 May 14:00: LoCo Team | 29 May 15:00: Kernel Team
[08:13] <welshbyte> @now
[08:13] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: May 22 2007, 18:13:13 - Next meeting: Technical Board in 1 hour 46 minutes
[10:02] <__keybuk> mjg59: I don't have the context for that mail you sent
[10:04] <mdz> __keybuk: forwarding to techboard
[10:04] <mdz> sent
[10:05] <mdz> we're up to date with MOTU applications from the MOTU council
[10:05] <mdz> and I'm not aware of any core-dev applications
[10:05] <dholbach> Hobbsee was proposed for core-dev
[10:05] <mdz> __keybuk: has anyone reminded sabdfl already?
[10:05] <mdz> dholbach: oh, did I miss an email?
[10:05] <dholbach> and was recommended by a few people
[10:05] <dholbach> mdz: the problem is that the process is not clear yet
[10:05] <mdz> hence your agenda item
[10:06] <ajmitch> LaserJock also wanted in, iirc
[10:06] <LaserJock> oh sweet, not too late
[10:06] <mdz> dholbach: I think it should be handled similarly to ubuntu-dev
[10:06] <dholbach> passing on recommendations to the MC works fine via mailing list
[10:06] <dholbach> what do you think? how many recommendations by the MC would you want for that? all 5 or a simple majority?
[10:06] <dholbach> (before we pass it on to the TB)
[10:07] <LaserJock> mdz: so would there be any IRC component? or all email?
[10:07] <mdz> a simple majority is fine, though of course we want to hear from developers outside of the council as well
[10:07] <dholbach> right
[10:08] <dholbach> I'm happy with that - I'll drop you a mail with the summary about Hobbsee and make sure the new process is in the wiki docs and announced on the list
[10:08] <dholbach> does anybody else have questions regarding the new core-dev process?
[10:08] <mdz> LaserJock: I think that in most cases we'll want to do an interview as well
[10:08] <mdz> the application should arrive via email, and we can make arrangements from there
[10:08] <ajmitch> dholbach: yes, what is it? :) are people meant to put in an application to the MC?
[10:08] <LaserJock> well, I just would like to be clear on the whole process
[10:08] <LaserJock> not just the MC part
[10:08] <mdz> I think it's more useful to pass an application via email than to add a line item to the TB agenda
[10:09] <LaserJock> ah
[10:09] <dholbach> ajmitch: I don't think it matters in which order we get those mails, as long as we have recommendations and somebody who wants to become core-dev :)
[10:09] <dholbach> ajmitch: so if it's an application or a recommendation first shouldn't matter
[10:10] <ajmitch> right, as long as it's clear *what* is needed
[10:10] <dholbach> mdz: I think I'm happy with my agenda point now.
[10:11] <mdz> what's needed is the same thing as always: testimonials, information about the candidate's activities, demonstrated knowledge and understanding of Ubuntu development in accord with UbuntuDevelopers, etc.
[10:11] <mdz> traditionally we would collect some of the information on a wiki page
[10:11] <mdz> and I think that's probably still a good idea
[10:12] <mdz> putting it someplace public makes it easy for future candidates to understand what's expected
[10:12] <mdz> so I'm thinking of a process something like this:
[10:13] <mjg59> Sorry, I'm here now
[10:14] <mdz> motu discusses their intent with the motu council, gets consensus that they are ready to apply, motu council collects relevant information and submits in a bundle to TB via a wiki page, TB review and respond, usually setting up an appointment to attend a meeting
[10:14] <mdz> (I just heard from sabdfl; he's unavailable)
[10:15] <mdz> __keybuk,mjg59: comments on that proposal?
[10:16] <__keybuk> that sounds exactly like the procedure I thought we agreed on :p
[10:16] <mjg59> Yes, I think that seems reasonable
[10:16] <mdz> __keybuk: I don't recall that we were explicit about core-dev
[10:16] <mdz> only about motu
[10:16] <__keybuk> maybe it's just sensible enough that it sounds like we ought to have agreed on it :p
[10:17] <mdz> well then, ok
[10:17] <mdz> it just needs to be documented then
[10:18] <dholbach> I'll take care of that
[10:18] <mdz> dholbach: would you update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewDeveloperProcess ?
[10:18] <mjg59> dholbach: Thanks
[10:18] <dholbach> de rien
[10:18] <mdz> it's pretty close already
[10:18] <LaserJock> I guess I'm a little unsure about the "motu council collects relevant information" part
[10:18] <mdz> the only thing we changed was the way information is passed around, and the order
[10:19] <mdz> turning up for a meeting as the first thing has always been an obstacle
[10:19] <mdz> Hobbsee, if I'm not mistaken, would normally be asleep during TB meetings
[10:19] <mdz> and we don't want to discourage people from applying because of silly things like time zones
[10:20] <mjg59> The impression I get is that the new process is working fairly well for MOTU
[10:20] <mdz> __keybuk and I independently noted that the meeting time ought to be adjusted for DST
[10:20] <mdz> mjg59: indeed, so we're following that lead in a way
[10:21] <mdz> I think it's a good idea to do more by email
[10:21] <mdz> which raises further questions about the meeting
[10:21] <mdz> we could, e.g., schedule the meeting based on who submits agenda items / applies for core-dev / etc. each time
[10:22] <mdz> to maximize attendance, at the expense of predictability
[10:22] <ajmitch> with all the TB in one TZ (I think), is that practical?
[10:22] <mjg59> ajmitch: The plan is for the TB to be extended
[10:22] <mdz> in general, any two time zones can be accomodated at once
[10:22] <ajmitch> mjg59: so I heard, eventually :)
[10:22] <mdz> so TB + applicant is a good combination
[10:23] <__keybuk> mjg59: the one nomination sabdfl has received so far happens to *also* be in the Europe/London timezone :p
[10:23] <mjg59> Ha
[10:23] <mdz> it shouldn't be necessary to have third parties turn up at the meeting, generall. the tech board can raise any questions they have for them by email
[10:23] <mjg59> We could send mdz back to the US
[10:23] <mjg59> But anyway
[10:24] <mdz> so what would you like to do?  move back an hour to stay at 20h London time?
[10:24] <mdz> hold meetings only as needed?
[10:25] <mjg59> 21:00 is certainly a little too late to be convenient for me
[10:25] <mdz> regular meetings are good to keep us in contact and active
[10:25] <mjg59> I'd be concerned that holding meetings as needed would make the TB less visible
[10:25] <mdz> if we all turn up and have nothing to talk about, that's not much better :-)
[10:25] <mjg59> We don't want people who submit items to feel as if they're causing us inconvenience by forcing a meeting to be scheduled
[10:26] <mdz> good point
[10:26] <somerville32> If we don't have anything to talk about, we could just have some tea instead.
[10:26] <mjg59> As a compromise, leave meetings scheduled but cancel them unless there's something on the agenda?
[10:26] <mdz> we could hold meetings at 20h, but be open to adjusting to accomodate someone with an important cause (like joining core-dev)
[10:27] <mjg59> Yes, that seems fair
[10:27] <mdz> __keybuk: thoughts?
[10:27] <LaserJock> well, you could always send an email to -devel-discuss asking for things for the TB to talk about ;-)
[10:27] <mjg59> I think people might also prefer a more obvious mechanism for causing things to be raised
[10:28] <mdz> more obvious than sending email to technical-board?
[10:28] <__keybuk> I think that opportunistically cancelling or rescheduling the meeting would create the same effect as not scheduling in the first place
[10:28] <mjg59> I think the docs suggest just adding things to the agenda?
[10:28] <mdz> they do
[10:28] <mdz> but email works as well if not better, I think
[10:29] <mjg59> Right
[10:29] <mjg59> Then we should fix them to state that :)
[10:29] <mdz> I'll take that action item
[10:29] <mjg59> It also gives us the opportunity to ask people for more details
[10:29] <__keybuk> I also thing that the value of regular meetings of the TB is less than the value of regular meetings of the CC, since the latter is primarily community-driven wherease we're primarily resolving technical disputes (which happily come up hardly at all)
[10:30] <mjg59> I will note that we're poor at cancelling meetings even when it's fairly clear that they're not going ahead
[10:30] <mjg59> Like during UDS
[10:31] <mjg59> Right now the schedule shows us having one during Ubuntu Live
[10:31] <mdz> (TechnicalBoardAgenda updated)
[10:32] <mjg59> mdz: The ubuntu.com page wants updating as well
[10:32] <__keybuk> I think that my preference would be to request matters via e-mail
[10:32] <mjg59> Yes, I think I agree
[10:32] <__keybuk> and if the matter requires online discussion, arrange a meeting on IRC to discuss that item
[10:32] <somerville32> Isn't it entirely possible that TB members could subscribe to changes for that page?
[10:33] <__keybuk> rather than have a fixed schedule for the meetings
[10:33] <somerville32> Ah.
[10:33] <mdz> mjg59: good catch, I'll email webmaster about that
[10:33] <mjg59> somerville32: It's slightly irritating to then have to track that back to somebody's email address
[10:33] <mjg59> And relevant people can't easily be Cc:ed to begin with
[10:33] <__keybuk> I also think that we should be more diligent about announcing resolutions, at least to devel or devel-announce -- including new team memebrs
[10:34] <mdz> agreed
[10:34] <mdz> we need a secretary
[10:34] <mjg59> Any volunteers? :)
[10:35] <mdz> I'm sure we've resolved this at least once before
[10:35] <pochu> s/poinst/points/
[10:35] <mdz> and then fallen out of the habit of posting the outcome of meetings, after several meetings without activity
[10:35] <mjg59> Yes, I think so
[10:35] <mdz> I'll do one for this meeting
[10:36] <mjg59> Ok
[10:36] <mjg59> I think we've reached broad agreement over meeting plans
[10:36] <mdz> ok
[10:36] <mdz> any other business?
[10:36] <__keybuk> have we?
[10:36] <__keybuk> I thought we still had four options and no clear decision
[10:36] <__keybuk> 1) retain existing schedule
[10:36] <__keybuk> 2) alter meeting schedule for daylight savings
[10:36] <__keybuk> 3) 1 or 2, but reschedule or cancel meetings depending on agenda items
[10:36] <__keybuk> 4) ad-hoc schedule meetings to discuss items as and when they are proposed
[10:37] <mjg59> Ah, I thought we were leaning towards (4)
[10:37] <mjg59> As long as we're good at posting outcomes, I think we'll retain enough visibility
[10:38] <mdz> another option would be to come up with something which is useful for us to do together every week
[10:38] <mdz> s/week/two weeks/
[10:38] <Seveas> pochu, ?
[10:38] <mjg59> Paintballing
[10:38] <__keybuk> mjg59++
[10:38] <pochu> Seveas: <       mdz> we need a secretary
[10:38] <pochu> :)
[10:39] <Seveas> heh
[10:39] <pochu> You have experience, don't you? ;)
[10:39] <Seveas> a bit
[10:39] <mdz> mjg59: I was thinking something more like reviewing the work which was done on Ubuntu during the week
[10:39] <mjg59> Ha
[10:39] <mjg59> Yes, ok
[10:39] <__keybuk> we kind of already do that every week anyway, no?
[10:39] <mdz> we do, but individually
[10:40] <mdz> we don't get together and talk about it
[10:40] <mjg59> That arguably gives us an opportunity to ensure things are sane
[10:40] <mdz> and that might be healthy to do
[10:40] <__keybuk> that's an interesting point
[10:40] <mdz> if our only official meeting activity is resolving disputes, we won't have much to say
[10:40] <mjg59> I think I'd be happy with that
[10:41] <mdz> the Ubuntu developer community being such a well-oiled machine
[10:41] <__keybuk> we'd need some intelligent way to define "work done on Ubuntu during the week"
[10:41] <mdz> and then the minutes from that meeting would be a good wrap-up for the community about what's happened
[10:42] <mdz> sounds like something we should talk through by email, it was just a random idea
[10:42] <mdz> can we settle on implementing 2) immediately and discussing other options via email?
[10:42] <mjg59> Yes, ok
[10:42] <mdz> done
[10:42] <__keybuk> I can live with that :)
[10:42] <mjg59> It'll do for now
[10:42] <mjg59> Are we onto AOB?
[10:43] <mdz> yes
[10:43] <mjg59> We've received a request to take a look at Automatix - I think that's a reasonable request given the degree of interaction with the rest of the distribution
[10:44] <mjg59> I've already taken a look over the code, so I'll write up a review document and sent it to the list?
[10:44] <mdz> yes, it's due for another look
[10:44] <mdz> mjg59: oh, fantastic
[10:44] <mdz> I looked at the last version, but haven't looked at the new one
[10:44] <mjg59> Ok. I'll do that, then we can discuss it at the next meeting?
[10:44] <mdz> sure
[10:44] <__keybuk> sure
[10:44] <mjg59> It's probably worth noting it on the agenda, in case the developers want to provide any feedback
[10:45] <mdz> ok
[10:45] <mjg59> I've got nothing else - anyone else?
[10:45] <mdz> I suggested via email that in fact we have the discussion in an open forem
[10:45] <mdz> forum, even
[10:47] <mdz> ok, sounds like we're done
[10:47] <mdz> good night, all
[10:47] <mjg59> Ok
[10:47] <mjg59> Thanks!
[10:47] <somerville32> I have a quick question.
[10:47] <pochu> I can't find it on l.u.c
[10:48] <mdz> pochu: it's not a list as such, ti's just a contact address for the technical board
[10:48] <mdz> so that you can email us all at one address
[10:48] <mjg59> pochu: It's deliberately not publically archived
[10:48] <pochu> mdz: That explains it. Thanks :)
[10:48] <mjg59> In order to allow confidental stuff to be brought up
[10:48] <mjg59> If we have a public discussion, it'll be in a more obvious place :)
[10:49] <pochu> Sure thing. But then you might want to change the address to @ubuntu.com instead of @lists.ubuntu.com? :)
[10:49] <mjg59> Yea, that's an implementation detail
[10:49] <pochu> Yeah, nothing important.
[10:49] <mjg59> It's probably a reasonable idea, though