/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/05/24/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 24 May 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 27 May 14:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 May 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 29 May 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 30 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
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spider48014hi03:15
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shawarma@schedule copenhagen03:18
ubotuSchedule for Europe/Copenhagen: 24 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 14:00: MOTU | 27 May 16:00: LoCo Team | 29 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 29 May 23:00: Community Council | 30 May 14:00: Edubuntu03:18
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Hobbsee@now amsterdadm03:45
Hobbsee@now amsterdam03:45
ubotuCurrent time in Europe/Amsterdam: May 24 2007, 15:45:48 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 6 hours 14 minutes03:45
Lure@schedule ljubljana03:50
ubotuSchedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 24 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 14:00: MOTU | 27 May 16:00: LoCo Team | 29 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 29 May 23:00: Community Council | 30 May 14:00: Edubuntu03:50
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zul@schedule montreal05:26
ubotuSchedule for America/Montreal: 24 May 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 08:00: MOTU | 27 May 10:00: LoCo Team | 29 May 11:00: Kernel Team | 29 May 17:00: Community Council | 30 May 08:00: Edubuntu05:26
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bryce@schedule los angeles06:14
ubotuSchedule for America/Los_Angeles: 24 May 13:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 05:00: MOTU | 27 May 07:00: LoCo Team | 29 May 08:00: Kernel Team | 29 May 14:00: Community Council | 30 May 05:00: Edubuntu06:15
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Hobbsee@now amsterdam06:58
ubotuCurrent time in Europe/Amsterdam: May 24 2007, 18:58:35 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 3 hours 1 minute06:58
=== Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
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=== Topic for #ubuntu-meeting: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 24 May 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 27 May 14:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 May 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 29 May 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 30 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
=== Topic (#ubuntu-meeting): set by ubotu at Thu May 24 00:30:16 2007
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pittihi09:25
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nixternal@schedule chicago09:30
ubotuSchedule for America/Chicago: 24 May 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 07:00: MOTU | 27 May 09:00: LoCo Team | 29 May 10:00: Kernel Team | 29 May 16:00: Community Council | 30 May 07:00: Edubuntu09:30
tkamppeter@schedule coimbra09:34
tkamppeter@schedule lisboa09:35
tkamppeter@schedule lisbon09:35
ubotuSchedule for Europe/Lisbon: 24 May 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 13:00: MOTU | 27 May 15:00: LoCo Team | 29 May 16:00: Kernel Team | 29 May 22:00: Community Council | 30 May 13:00: Edubuntu09:35
tkamppeterhi pitti09:35
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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 May 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 27 May 14:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 May 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 29 May 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 30 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
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KeybukMithrandir: take a shower ;)09:57
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ogra-classmatehaha, contentless pongs09:57
MithrandirKeybuk: I'm so smelly you can feel it all the way to birmingham? :-O09:57
Keybukeither that, or the dog's been eating the garbage again09:57
MithrandirI blame your dog.09:57
Mithrandiror your dogs, even.09:57
KeybukOscar (the puppy) has taken to digging up the garden09:57
Mithrandirsounds fun.09:57
KeybukI think he's copying David who has also taken to digging up the garden09:57
ogra-classmatelol09:57
ogra-classmateyou should train him in mowing :)09:57
Keybukwe need a lawn first09:57
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mdzgood evening09:57
ogra-classmateah, want some ? i'd love to get rid of one or the other hundret squaremeters09:57
Keybukmdz: it is; don't you just wish there was Wi-Fi in hyde park?09:57
=== ogra-classmate had mowing day and would give away all of it on such days
MithrandirKeybuk: you don't have flatrate GPRS in the UK?09:57
adilsonKeybuk: If you want some tips on dog traning, ping me another time. I'm a certified dog handler and trainer and will be happy to help :)09:57
mdzKeybuk: I wish I were somewhere other than the office, surely09:57
KeybukMithrandir: actually, I do have flat rate GPRS and 3G09:57
KeybukI just don't have an operating system I've managed to persuade to work with my phone09:57
=== Keybuk thought he saw a spec about that once <g>
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adilsonmdz: good evening.09:57
Mithrandiryeah, I unassigned myself after it became clear I wouldn't get around to working with it09:57
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KeybukMithrandir: the trouble is, every time I fiddle, I'm on a train or something09:57
Keybukso don't have access to the interwobble to find out things like the mysterious "Dial String" I need09:57
Mithrandiryou could spend ten minutes before going on said train.09:58
kylemor text someone from the train to google fo ryou.09:59
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Riddellevening09:59
earobinsonafternoon for me!09:59
adilsonRiddell: Hi09:59
KeybukMithrandir: I never remember09:59
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mdzcjwatson: ping?10:00
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=== heno waves
kwwiihowdy10:01
Riddelladilson: you're out of agenda, new startes after apologies :)10:01
cjwatsonpong10:01
adilsonRiddell: Sorry :)10:01
bryceheya10:01
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=== pitti hugs the crowd
=== BenC is here
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BenCand I believe pkl, rtg and kyle are accounted for10:02
cjwatsondoko said he might be five minutes late10:02
mdzdoko is here10:02
tkamppeterhi10:02
pkl_BenC: ye :)10:03
mdzseb128: here?10:03
seb128mdz: yes10:03
cjwatsonI tend to assume people who just joined are here10:03
mdzseb was more than a screenful back :-)10:03
cjwatsonok, all accounted for10:03
mdzok, good evening to all10:03
cjwatsondoko: oh yes, sorry, didn't see that10:03
seb128evening10:03
mdzon a warm evening in London10:03
asac:)10:03
dokotoo hot here in Berlin10:04
mdz(/me pings mathiaz out of band)10:04
ogra-classmatewarm evening in kassel as well10:04
adilsontoo cold in Brazil :(10:04
mdzfirst, a special welcome to adilson10:04
tkamppeterRainy in Portugal10:04
mdzwho has joined the Canonical team to work on Ubuntu Mobile and Embedded10:04
Mithrandir\o/10:05
adilsonThank you!10:05
henoOslo is just perfect these days :)10:05
asachi adilson10:05
Mithrandirhe's already been a great help.10:05
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mvowelcome adilson10:05
=== adilson waves all
Mithrandirheno: slightly rainy today, though10:05
bryceheya adilson :-)10:05
keescookwelcome adilson10:05
mdzfrom wintry Brazil10:05
mdzin just a few moments, we will be joined by another newcomer10:06
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Riddellhi mathiaz10:06
mdzwelcome to mathiaz10:06
=== pitti cheers to mathiaz
mathiazhi all10:06
mdzwho joins us from summery Montreal10:06
=== keescook hugs mathiaz
dholbachwelcome mathiaz10:06
Mithrandirmathiaz: welcome to the madness! :-)10:06
asacmathiaz: welcome10:06
adilsonHi Mathiaz!10:07
brycewelcome mathiaz!10:07
BenCHello Mathiaz10:07
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mdzblazing a trail on Ubuntu Server10:07
=== ogra-classmate hugs mathiaz
mdzdo I read correctly that we have no agenda items proposed for this week?10:08
=== pitti actually had one
pitti * Find interested reviewer for bzr-best-practices10:08
bdmurrayI have a last minute one10:08
pittiand I have another one if I may10:08
seb128pitti: that's not really a meeting agenda ;)10:08
ogra-classmatewe could discuss the best cooling mechanism at work :)10:08
cjwatsonneither Keybuk nor I could see any, but we may have missed some10:08
cjwatsonfeel free to add them10:08
seb128pitti: I think the mail on the list acted as a call for review ;)10:08
pittiseb128: WFM10:08
mdzindeed10:08
bdmurray * Bug Day Tasks10:08
mdzit would be best reviewed by people working on packaging using bzr every day10:09
Mithrandirogra-classmate: ice cream, of course.10:09
pitti * -security kernel handling10:09
mdzbdmurray: please go ahead10:09
pittikeescook: ^ will you stay for this?10:09
dholbach * find people who are willing to do ubuntu-dev mentoring :-)10:09
tkamppeterAny volunteer for writing a new GUI for printerdrake for Gutsy? GNOME and Usability experts?10:09
keescookpitti: yup10:09
ogra-classmateMithrandir: cold water buckets to put your feet in ;)10:09
tkamppeterhttps://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/printerdrake10:09
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ogra-classmatedholbach: count me in for edubuntu people on that10:10
ogra-classmatedholbach: any team i need to join ?10:10
mdzbdmurray: bug day tasks?10:10
bdmurraymdz: right per some discussion at UDS I wanted to setup a list of a quantity of bugs to address10:11
cjwatsonI could be one reviewer on bzr-best-practices, since I meet that criterion (well, maybe not *every* day)10:11
cjwatsonbut I shouldn't be the only one10:11
bdmurrayI've started a draft at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20070530 and just wanted review / comments10:11
mdzbdmurray: sounds like a fine idea10:11
dholbachogra-classmate: no, you just need to tell me how many people you could take care of and I'd send them to you (highvoltage and I are the 'reception')10:11
pittiright, the more opinions, the better10:11
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bdmurrayI also wanted to a section of bite-size tagged bugs and perhaps duplicates dholbach's bughelper cron job finds10:12
=== seb128 doesn't maintain packages to bzr, apt-get source is faster ;)
mdzbdmurray: that seems like a good list.  should keep folks busy for a little whlie10:12
dholbachbdmurray: looks like a good idea - I'm sure we can add bugs to the list if people finish them too soon :-)10:12
mvopitti: I will be happy to review it too10:12
bdmurraymdz: I was planning on adding more than that quantity perhaps 10010:12
pittibdmurray: I like the idea of a bite-sized portion of bugs which need more attention; staring at ubugto is just a swamp10:12
mdzseb128: maybe on the first fetch, not for updates :-)10:12
seb128could we list some distro team members being "on duty" for bug days?10:12
mdzseb128: perhaps a rotation10:13
cjwatsonthat sounds like a good idea; it's always easier to remember when it's your explicit responsibility10:13
seb128obviously waiting on volontars doesn't work10:13
seb128mdz: well, I mean changing the people "on duty" every week10:13
mdzbdmurray: about how many people do you think you need per bug day?10:13
pittibdmurray: sounds like it should be combined with the 'mentoring' flag?10:14
seb128otherwise nobody join (or only a few number of people and always the same ones)10:14
bdmurrayI thought one idea we had was to have the next one in ubuntu-devel to get more developers involved10:14
bdmurraymdz: not sure maybe 6?10:14
mdzbdmurray: yes, I think that should be done regardless10:14
seb1286 is a bit much10:15
mdzbdmurray: hmm, I don't think we can devote that much of the team each time10:15
asac6 on duty ... what does "on duty" imply?10:15
seb128I think 3 people is enough10:15
keescook"6" is total people involved in a hug day or "on duty"?10:15
mdzasac: focused on bug squashing for that day10:15
bdmurrayI'll defer to seb128 then10:15
adilson"hug day" :)10:15
cjwatsonasac: what mdz said, plus expected to be paying attention to the channel and helping people out there10:15
seb128asac: hanging around, having some activity on the chan, replying to people who have questions10:15
pittiif it means talking to people and looking at bugs fulltime without doing other things, then 6 is indeed quite a dent in productivity10:15
cjwatsonpreferably actively talking about what they're doing10:15
seb128creating a feeling that things are happening10:15
mdzwe could do 3 in a rotation such that everyone gets to participate once every 5 or so bug days10:16
pittithat sounds good10:16
seb128well, I think people don't need to spend the day on that10:16
seb128it's taking like 2-3 hours, showing activity on the chan and reading what's happening10:17
dholbacheverybody in here does 2-3 hours of bug triage a day anyway, right? ;-)10:17
pittiI often hung out in the channel and occasionally looked at new incoming bugs, but otherwise chatter has been relatively quiet in that channel, so I'm not sure what else to do10:17
seb128dholbach: I wish10:17
seb128dholbach: 2-3 hours is a lazy day :p10:17
mdzit would be interesting if ubugtu would show when someone in the channel touches a bug10:17
ogra-classmatethat would get noisy very fast10:18
seb128that would create too much flood imho10:18
Seveasmdz, you want frid eggs with that spam?10:18
seb128I closed like 200 Needs Info today for example10:18
Seveas:)10:18
bdmurraymdz: I find ubugtu noisy enough as it is, I just had apport announcements turned off with Seveas's help10:18
mdzI wasn't actually thinking about all bugs10:18
seb128I don't think people on the chan would have made any use of the flood10:18
mdzbut one sees new bugs announced in the channel10:18
pittibdmurray: that might require some tweaking with the recent 'title prefix' -> 'tag' change, btw10:18
mdzbut doesn't see who is working on them10:18
Seveaspitti, can we talk about that after the meeting?10:19
bdmurrayMy hope with the wiki is people would put their name by bugs they triaged and try to "do more" and have their name show up a lot10:19
seb128mdz: how do we know who is working on them?10:19
mdzmaybe the "current screenful" of bugs10:19
seb128we usually do10:19
=== seb128 looks at bug #nnn
pittiSeveas: yes, let's, in #u-devel10:19
mdzseb128: I see10:19
mdzseb128: perhaps not everyone is so diligent :-)10:20
dholbachsomething like http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/diaries would be nice (not that much text at once, but explaining what you do with a bug)10:20
henodholbach: add a bugbot flag to buglog, to make it send specific bugs to the bot10:20
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Diaries I mean10:20
mdzbdmurray: how often do you run a bug day?10:21
dholbachheno: once we have buglog up and running that might be a good idea10:21
henoso when you've just worked on a nice example you can post it10:21
seb128mdz: that's why I want people "on duty" :p10:21
seb128like 2-3 people who make efforts to be active on the chan10:21
dholbachthe last one was two weeks before feisty release, or something?10:21
mdzwe should do them on a set schedule, and set up a rotation10:22
bdmurraymdz: we haven't had one in a while as I've been trying to revamp the idea.  I think once every 2 weeks would be a good start10:22
mdzok10:23
mdzwho would be "on duty" for a bug day once every two months?10:23
keescookI'm game10:23
=== dholbach would
asacme obviously10:23
cjwatsonI could manage that10:23
mdzI would as well10:23
henome10:23
pittiI thought the entire team?10:23
=== pitti for sure, too
ogra-classmateme for edubuntu10:23
=== mvo too
seb128o/10:23
Riddellrather who has an excuse not to be :)10:24
=== adilson if I can be of any help...
bryceme too, particularly for all the X-related bugs I see there10:24
mathiaztoo10:24
mdzRiddell: we're increasingly specialized around here, you know ;-)10:24
henohow should we time vthese relative to alpha releases, etc?10:24
mdzbdmurray: ok, you've got 3 people for each of them now10:25
henowe'll likely have resaonable community testing of ISOs around those10:25
adilsonRiddell: hmmm... my dog ate my pc? :)10:25
mdzheno: would be good to have a bug day to receive the test results from a milestone10:25
mdzs/a milestone/each milestone/10:25
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Mithrandirmdz: can we (as in mobile) wait until we have any users? :-P10:25
henoagreed10:25
mdzMithrandir: a bug day sounds like a good way to stay in touch with the rest of the world10:26
mdzand take a break from the everyday10:26
cjwatsonand it's also good to have a bug day a little before a milestone to hoover up really bad stuff10:26
cjwatsonhi Evan10:26
Mithrandirmdz: indeed.  I wasn't really serious; a day every second month is something we can spare, for sure.10:26
evandhello10:26
adilsonmdz: and God know we need after tackling Hildon over and over ;)10:26
ogra-classmatepolease early enough so we dont have to do too many rebiulds10:26
mdzbdmurray: would you work out a schedule for bug days which includes the duty rotation, and coincides nicely with milestones?10:27
ogra-classmate*please10:27
cjwatsonogra-classmate: well, it depends how bad the bugs are :-)10:27
ogra-classmateindeede10:27
ogra-classmatebut we have a major raise in bugs spam anyway shortly before milestones10:27
bdmurraymdz: okay. do we have a day of week preference?  I think Tu, Wed or Th is good10:27
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mdzbdmurray: whatever works best for everyone10:28
mdzwe could try it on different days and see what works best with respect to a milestone10:28
cjwatsonThu coincides with release days10:28
cjwatson(typically)10:28
dholbachWednesday? (there are a couple of meetings on thursdays and tuesdays)10:29
bdmurrayand this so Wed?10:29
seb128I think wednesday10:29
MithrandirI think Tuesday would be better, since stuff will often be frozen on Wednesdays10:29
dholbachthat doesn't stop us doing bug triage :)10:29
pittiwe don't have meetings all day long on Tuesday either10:29
seb128Mithrandir: that's not really an "upload fixes" day10:29
mdzdholbach: or fixing bugs either10:29
dholbachright10:29
mdzlet's try Wednesday and see how it goes10:29
mdzbug day, hug day, hump day10:30
dholbachYOOOHOOOO :-)10:30
=== dholbach hugs mdz
=== seb128 hugs mdz
mdzlet's discuss bdmurray's schedule on list10:30
mdzpitti: kernel security updates?10:30
BenCthat might scare off the more innocent crowd10:30
pittiso, I noticed that our recent *-security kernel uploads were quite a bit more than -security10:30
mdzBenC: you just made elmo laugh10:30
pittiwould it be feasible to have those go through regular -proposed, or is that too much work?10:31
mdzoh, he's not here. must have been something else10:31
cjwatsona passing squirrel10:31
pittibumping the ABI every time is painful enough with the current -security workflow10:31
cjwatson(I'd laugh if I saw a squirrel 27 floors up)10:31
mdzpitti: they should, though they need to be merged into -security eventually10:31
keescookand just the fear of seeing a regression.  without -proposed, doing the upload is rather binary10:32
pittiright, there's so much new stuff going into these kernels; I don't really see why we are so strict on SRUs fixing gnome games and so lax on kernels which affect everyone10:32
mdzpitti: who is 'we'?10:32
mdzpitti: aren't you and keescook responsible for reviewing security updates?10:33
Keybukcjwatson: the building's been buzzed by Apache Gunship helicopters a few times10:33
pittiwell, we define what should go in in the kernel tracker svn, but usually when they get uploaded there's more stuff into them10:33
keescookthe list of changes in the feisty update was giant.  62 changes, 5 were for security.  :P10:34
pittiso far I regarded that as 'common practice' to avoid even more branches, but it got a little much recently10:34
pittikeescook: erk10:34
mdzthe two of you need to take responsibility for that10:34
mdzyou're responsible for everything which goes out as a security update10:34
mdzif it's not OK with you, you need to say no10:34
keescookBenC: thoughts?10:35
pittiright; so far it has been a bit like 'get the surprise when you read the .changes file that got uploaded'10:35
mdzand work with the kernel team so that you have agreement on what is going in *before* it gets uploaded10:35
pittiyep, that would be prefered10:35
rtg_pitti, keescook: Of those 62 changes, were there any that were not bug fixes?10:35
pittiok, we'll do that discussion on the ML, I think10:35
pittirtg_: that's not the point10:35
BenCall the stuff in feisty update was either sitting there before we even released, or was super well tested prior to upload10:36
pkl_keescook: there were 4 more which were not CVEs, but were security fixes from Linux 2.6.20 stable.10:36
keescookrtg_: I'm sure they were all bug fixes, but bugs should be SRU'd.10:36
mdzBenC: the fact that it was in the tree before we released doesn't make it exempt10:36
BenCproblem is SRU is really a PITA for kernel10:36
pittirtg_: also, we should not try and fix every bug in stables10:36
pittiBenC: right, and it should be a PITA, really10:36
mdzI recognize that it might be inconvenient to back things out, but I can't stress it enough10:36
BenCno, I mean it's almost impossible to follow for kernels :)10:36
mdzbeing rigorous about security updates is a matter of trust10:36
pittiBenC: how so?10:37
MithrandirSRUs should be painful enough that we don't do them nilly-willy, but easy enough that we actually fix real bugs.10:37
Mithrandirwhich is a hard balance to strike.10:37
BenCThe ABI, revisioning, git tree handling, lrm/linux-meta matching, making sure one is newer than the other, etc..10:37
pittiBenC: that really sounds like the problem is that too much stuff happens on the stable branches then10:37
BenCwe really can't supply a decent -updates kernel10:38
cjwatsonrtg_: (since you don't have the background here, the reason we're so strict is that we have had serious negative backlash in the past from updates that we thought were safe but in practice broke a lot of people's systems; that's why we have a strict policy on updates now)10:38
pittiBenC: oh, I'm fine with -proposed -> merge to -security for a small number of high-impact patches; -updates is not really required IMHO10:38
BenCpitti: even one small change requires all this, if it has an ABI bump, or if -security has an ABI bump, and -proposed needs to match -security10:38
mdzour policy for stable is only to fix high-impact bugs (including security issues)10:38
mdzfull stop10:38
pittiBenC: so can't we just amalgate several of them and only release them once every two months or so?10:39
tkamppeterI suggest an SRU for Ghostscript, the new merged Ghostscript (http://www.cups.org/espgs/articles.php?L463) fixes tons of bugs, especially the KDE killers bug 103595 and bug 105752,10:39
ubotuLaunchpad bug 103595 in gs-esp "[GPL GS WORKS]  MASTER [apport]  gs-esp crashed with SIGSEGV in pdf_find_same_resource()" [Medium,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/10359510:39
ubotuLaunchpad bug 105752 in gs-esp "[GPL GS WORKS]  MASTER [apport]  gs-esp crashed with SIGSEGV in gx_image_end()" [Medium,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/10575210:39
mdztkamppeter: please read what I just said10:39
pittitkamppeter: no, I'm afraid that's way off the scale10:39
cjwatsontkamppeter: there is no possibility of just dropping the new merged ghostscript into stable10:39
mdzBenC: we already have an agreement that -proposed doesn't need to match10:40
cjwatsonstable updates need to be carefully targeted such that it's possible to review the patch that fixes just the bugs in question10:40
mdzBenC: there's a special exception for the kernel in the SRU process for it, which you proposed10:40
pittialso, -proposed is *much* less painful than -security in terms of uploading and publishing10:40
BenCmdz: No, I realize that, it's the matching between there...we miss a lot of testing because -proposed has to have a different ABI from what's in stable10:40
BenCand attempting to match ABI and have versions be sane, creates overhead10:41
pittiBenC: but then the solution should not be to not test at all IMHO10:41
BenCpitti: we do test10:41
BenCwe test out of -proposed10:41
BenCwith bug submitters, OEMs, distro-team, etc...10:41
BenCthose things did not get uploaded without me knowing they were tested...10:42
pittiright, I didn't say they were10:42
BenCthey probably got better testing because we didn't do the -proposed upload10:42
pittibut ATM it's not really transparent what goes in and what not10:42
BenCbut you said "not test at all" :)10:42
pittiBenC: right, in -proposed I mean10:43
mdzBenC: what is your personal criteria for what should go into stable?10:43
mdzit sounds like we have a disconnection here10:43
mdzthe general policy is well documented10:43
pittiBenC: I was saying that avoiding a -proposed upload because it's too painful is the wrong way to approach the problem IMHO10:43
mdzI'd like to see the same for what you think should apply to the kernel10:43
mdzand then we can discuss it10:43
BenCfor the first feisty upload, it had to fix important hw support (like tifm and sparc64), had to fix some OEM issues, and had to be tested by bug submitters and regressions tested10:43
cjwatsonI don't think all the stuff that was in the tree from pre-release satisfied those criteria10:44
BenCbut definitely, I'd love to make this more transparent, so maybe a discussion later would be good10:44
pittiBenC: right, let's continue on the ML maybe?10:45
BenCsure thing10:45
mdzBenC: please take a little time and write it down in detail, so that we have a basis for a discussion10:45
pittime will start a thread10:45
BenCwill do10:45
pittiBenC: thank you10:45
BenCPPA would resolve a lot of this :)10:45
mdzdholbach: ubuntu-dev mentoring?10:45
dholbachwe have a new mentoring process for people who want to become ubuntu-dev - we want to get them far enough to know the processes and the tools, so they find their way around easily10:46
dholbachfor that we changed the process to have 'reception' which takes on mentoring requests and assigns mentors to contributors10:46
dholbachit'd be nice to have some more people who are willing to help out10:46
dholbachand pass easy tasks to people and review what they do10:47
cjwatsonBenC: PPA's up on dogfood, so if you would like to start trying it, talk to Celso10:47
dholbachhttp://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentoring for more information10:47
BenCcjwatson: ok, thanks10:47
mdzwhat dholbach means to say is this10:47
mdzif you have more work than you can do, you can hand off some small tasks to prospective MOTUs10:48
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pittimdz: as always, the marketing expert :)10:48
mdzin exchange for answering their questions as they help you with your work10:48
mdzthey learn, your todo list shrinks10:48
mdzeverybody wins10:48
dholbachthanks mdz :-)10:48
mdznow let's see some hands!10:48
ogra-classmateyay, lets train delegation!10:49
=== pitti suggests adding a canned search for mentoring bugs to that page
=== BenC holds his up, and the rest of the kernel-team's hands
asaci am doing this already ... so why not :)10:49
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dholbachdrop me a mail and tell me how many contributors you think you could deal with and I'll add you to the list10:50
pittiI flagged some of my bugs as mentoring, I think that's a convenient and dynamic way of indicating where new devs can start10:50
mdzheno: are you already an official mentor?10:50
adilsonWell, there's a lot of people interested on helping over the embedded stuff but I think I'm too green yet to really mentor anyone.10:50
BenCdholbach: how many are most people mentoring at a time?10:50
dholbachmost do 210:50
mdzbryce: surely you have some extra bugs you could pass on to a prospective developer :-)10:50
brycedefinitely10:50
henomdz: not for MOTU ...10:51
brycehowever I'm not a MOTU so not sure if I fit in this scheme10:51
dholbachI do 5 and it works ok - bear in mind that there are people who don't know how to use dpkg-buildpackage or how to use debdiff too, we have a lot of very keen people10:51
mdzbryce: you're not *yet*10:51
keescookbryce: you'll be there.  :)10:51
ogra-classmateadilson: dont underestimate the learning effect you have by helping others10:51
ogra-classmate;)10:51
henobut I've offered mentoring on various specs10:51
keescookI'm happy to do this too, I already mentor folks for security updates10:51
Mithrandiradilson: if you take up somebody, I'm happy to be "second line of support" if they come up with questions you can't answer.10:52
brycein any case, I'd be happy to work with anyone interested in fixing X bugs :-)10:52
dholbachthe mentoring feature in LP is nice, but I feel that people work better if you give them a task that you know is easy :)10:52
mdzadilson: as ogra points out, you learn quickly by teaching :-)10:52
adilsonMithrandir: Well, in that case, what the hell, full steam ahead. COunt me on :)10:52
pittidholbach: if you see someone interested in Utopia stuff, point her/him to me10:52
pittidholbach: (you do that anyway, of course, but just to reiterate :) )10:52
mdzok, we're running short on time10:53
mdzis there any other business for the meeting?10:53
dholbachpitti: ok10:53
pittiwhat's the current plan for spec approval?10:53
pittithey'll just happen in the next one or two weeks or so?10:53
mdzpitti: the plan is that specs will be approved :-)10:53
cjwatsonit's due by next Thursday, IIRC10:54
mdzif you're wondering about a particular approver, ask them10:54
ogra-classmatepitti: end of the moth for community driven specs iirc10:54
Keybukpitti: if you haven't had comments from me so far, that's a good sign ;)10:54
mdzthe deadline is 31 May10:54
pitticjwatson: that sounds like a concrete plan, thanks10:54
pittiKeybuk: *phew* :)10:54
mdzwhich is next Thursday10:54
tkamppeterSee you all on the LinuxTag in Berlin.10:54
cjwatsonmerge status10:54
adilsontkamppeter: I wish :)10:54
pittiwe're doing quite well this time, don't we? almost down to 100 or so10:55
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=== ogra-classmate is a bit behind due to classmate stuff ... but will take up on monday again
cjwatson86 outstanding merges is pretty good at this point, but we need to keep pushing on through10:55
cjwatsonif you have a lot, hand them off rather than sitting on them10:55
tkamppeterI will come to the Ubuntu boothe several times on the first two days.10:55
mdz8610:55
Keybukpitti: this was deliberate <g>10:55
kwwiiogra-classmate: let me know if there are any graphic related items you need10:55
mdzMithrandir: you should find a home for your merges, given mobile10:56
tkamppeterOn the other two days I will work towards the grand unified printing dialog with 5 Usability experts, hope the dialog will make it into Gutsy+1 ...10:56
ogra-classmatekwwii: for now i'm fine scaling the feisty artwork to the correct sizes... we'll need to talk about a possible gutsy image later10:56
kwwiiogra-classmate: cool10:57
Mithrandirmdz: yup, or just do them, there aren't that many of them.10:57
henocjwatson: all my specs are up for review now. who should I poke about that, the approver or find a separate reviewer?10:57
ogra-classmatekwwii: actually i'm done with the feity stuff apart from usplash10:57
tkamppeterEveryone who likes to work with GUI and Printing is invited to join the OpenPrinting Usability/GUI Meeting on Friday and Saturday June 1 and 2 on LinuxTag in Berlin.10:57
Mithrandirmdz: I'll see if I can give them away to somebody.10:57
pittiMithrandir: oh, just four for you; but tell me if you need help, they don't look too scary10:57
mdzok, sounds like we're done for tonight10:58
kwwiitkamppeter: just make sure that Ellen helps :-)10:58
cjwatsonheno: just the approver, I think10:58
mdzwe had deliverables from bdmurray and BenC10:58
tkamppeterkwwii, Ellen is still working at OpenUsability, but not any more on the printing GUI.10:58
henocjwatson: ok so in most cases that's you ;)10:58
mdzadjourned, thanks everyone10:59
mdzand good night10:59
pittithanks, guys10:59
cjwatsonheno: yeah, I have a big list10:59
asacthanks everybody ... cu10:59
adilsonThanks for the warm welcome and good night!10:59
seb128'night10:59
bdmurrayThanks10:59
kwwiitkamppeter: yeah, I just figured she'd be in berlin as she lives there :-)10:59
mathiazthanks - 'night10:59
BenCgood night everyone10:59
kwwiiand with that, I wish you all a good night10:59
tkamppeterThe five experts are Jan Muehlig, Peter Sikking, Josef Spillner, Andrea alessandrini, and Celeste Lyn Paul.11:00
brycecya all!11:00
dholbach(and please mail me about the mentoring thing)11:00
henocjwatson: I can imagine11:00
ogra-classmatethanks11:00
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asacdholbach: sure11:00
tkamppeterkwwii, but if you want to join, feel free to participate.11:00
=== dholbach hugs asac
mvogood night11:00
pkl_bye11:00
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kwwiitkamppeter: unfortunately I won't be attending after all11:00
keescookcya11:00
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tkamppeterSee you next week live at the LinuxTag in Berlin.11:00
=== kwwii will still be in bamberg
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dholbachogra-classmate: ROCK ON11:01
tkamppeterunfortunately, I cannot join the Ubuntu session, as it is in parallel with the Printing GUI Meeting ...11:02
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