[03:15] <spider48014> hi
[03:18] <shawarma> @schedule copenhagen
[03:18] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Copenhagen: 24 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 14:00: MOTU | 27 May 16:00: LoCo Team | 29 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 29 May 23:00: Community Council | 30 May 14:00: Edubuntu
[03:45] <Hobbsee> @now amsterdadm
[03:45] <Hobbsee> @now amsterdam
[03:45] <ubotu> Current time in Europe/Amsterdam: May 24 2007, 15:45:48 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 6 hours 14 minutes
[03:50] <Lure> @schedule ljubljana
[03:50] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 24 May 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 14:00: MOTU | 27 May 16:00: LoCo Team | 29 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 29 May 23:00: Community Council | 30 May 14:00: Edubuntu
[05:26] <zul> @schedule montreal
[05:26] <ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 24 May 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 08:00: MOTU | 27 May 10:00: LoCo Team | 29 May 11:00: Kernel Team | 29 May 17:00: Community Council | 30 May 08:00: Edubuntu
[06:14] <bryce> @schedule los angeles
[06:15] <ubotu> Schedule for America/Los_Angeles: 24 May 13:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 05:00: MOTU | 27 May 07:00: LoCo Team | 29 May 08:00: Kernel Team | 29 May 14:00: Community Council | 30 May 05:00: Edubuntu
[06:58] <Hobbsee> @now amsterdam
[06:58] <ubotu> Current time in Europe/Amsterdam: May 24 2007, 18:58:35 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 3 hours 1 minute
[09:25] <pitti> hi
[09:30] <nixternal> @schedule chicago
[09:30] <ubotu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 24 May 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 07:00: MOTU | 27 May 09:00: LoCo Team | 29 May 10:00: Kernel Team | 29 May 16:00: Community Council | 30 May 07:00: Edubuntu
[09:34] <tkamppeter> @schedule coimbra
[09:35] <tkamppeter> @schedule lisboa
[09:35] <tkamppeter> @schedule lisbon
[09:35] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Lisbon: 24 May 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 May 13:00: MOTU | 27 May 15:00: LoCo Team | 29 May 16:00: Kernel Team | 29 May 22:00: Community Council | 30 May 13:00: Edubuntu
[09:35] <tkamppeter> hi pitti
[09:57] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: take a shower ;)
[09:57] <ogra-classmate> haha, contentless pongs
[09:57] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: I'm so smelly you can feel it all the way to birmingham? :-O
[09:57] <Keybuk> either that, or the dog's been eating the garbage again
[09:57] <Mithrandir> I blame your dog.
[09:57] <Mithrandir> or your dogs, even.
[09:57] <Keybuk> Oscar (the puppy) has taken to digging up the garden
[09:57] <Mithrandir> sounds fun.
[09:57] <Keybuk> I think he's copying David who has also taken to digging up the garden
[09:57] <ogra-classmate> lol
[09:57] <ogra-classmate> you should train him in mowing :)
[09:57] <Keybuk> we need a lawn first
[09:57] <mdz> good evening
[09:57] <ogra-classmate> ah, want some ? i'd love to get rid of one or the other hundret squaremeters
[09:57] <Keybuk> mdz: it is; don't you just wish there was Wi-Fi in hyde park?
[09:57] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: you don't have flatrate GPRS in the UK?
[09:57] <adilson> Keybuk: If you want some tips on dog traning, ping me another time. I'm a certified dog handler and trainer and will be happy to help :)
[09:57] <mdz> Keybuk: I wish I were somewhere other than the office, surely
[09:57] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: actually, I do have flat rate GPRS and 3G
[09:57] <Keybuk> I just don't have an operating system I've managed to persuade to work with my phone
[09:57] <adilson> mdz: good evening.
[09:57] <Mithrandir> yeah, I unassigned myself after it became clear I wouldn't get around to working with it
[09:57] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: the trouble is, every time I fiddle, I'm on a train or something
[09:57] <Keybuk> so don't have access to the interwobble to find out things like the mysterious "Dial String" I need
[09:58] <Mithrandir> you could spend ten minutes before going on said train.
[09:59] <kylem> or text someone from the train to google fo ryou.
[09:59] <Riddell> evening
[09:59] <earobinson> afternoon for me!
[09:59] <adilson> Riddell: Hi
[09:59] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: I never remember
[10:00] <mdz> cjwatson: ping?
[10:01] <kwwii> howdy
[10:01] <Riddell> adilson: you're out of agenda, new startes after apologies :)
[10:01] <cjwatson> pong
[10:01] <adilson> Riddell: Sorry :)
[10:01] <bryce> heya
[10:02] <BenC> and I believe pkl, rtg and kyle are accounted for
[10:02] <cjwatson> doko said he might be five minutes late
[10:02] <mdz> doko is here
[10:02] <tkamppeter> hi
[10:03] <pkl_> BenC: ye :)
[10:03] <mdz> seb128: here?
[10:03] <seb128> mdz: yes
[10:03] <cjwatson> I tend to assume people who just joined are here
[10:03] <mdz> seb was more than a screenful back :-)
[10:03] <cjwatson> ok, all accounted for
[10:03] <mdz> ok, good evening to all
[10:03] <cjwatson> doko: oh yes, sorry, didn't see that
[10:03] <seb128> evening
[10:03] <mdz> on a warm evening in London
[10:03] <asac> :)
[10:04] <doko> too hot here in Berlin
[10:04] <mdz> (/me pings mathiaz out of band)
[10:04] <ogra-classmate> warm evening in kassel as well
[10:04] <adilson> too cold in Brazil :(
[10:04] <mdz> first, a special welcome to adilson
[10:04] <tkamppeter> Rainy in Portugal
[10:04] <mdz> who has joined the Canonical team to work on Ubuntu Mobile and Embedded
[10:05] <Mithrandir> \o/
[10:05] <adilson> Thank you!
[10:05] <heno> Oslo is just perfect these days :)
[10:05] <asac> hi adilson
[10:05] <Mithrandir> he's already been a great help.
[10:05] <mvo> welcome adilson
[10:05] <Mithrandir> heno: slightly rainy today, though
[10:05] <bryce> heya adilson :-)
[10:05] <keescook> welcome adilson
[10:05] <mdz> from wintry Brazil
[10:06] <mdz> in just a few moments, we will be joined by another newcomer
[10:06] <Riddell> hi mathiaz
[10:06] <mdz> welcome to mathiaz
[10:06] <mathiaz> hi all
[10:06] <mdz> who joins us from summery Montreal
[10:06] <dholbach> welcome mathiaz
[10:06] <Mithrandir> mathiaz: welcome to the madness! :-)
[10:06] <asac> mathiaz: welcome
[10:07] <adilson> Hi Mathiaz!
[10:07] <bryce> welcome mathiaz!
[10:07] <BenC> Hello Mathiaz
[10:07] <mdz> blazing a trail on Ubuntu Server
[10:08] <mdz> do I read correctly that we have no agenda items proposed for this week?
[10:08] <pitti>  * Find interested reviewer for bzr-best-practices
[10:08] <bdmurray> I have a last minute one
[10:08] <pitti> and I have another one if I may
[10:08] <seb128> pitti: that's not really a meeting agenda ;)
[10:08] <ogra-classmate> we could discuss the best cooling mechanism at work :)
[10:08] <cjwatson> neither Keybuk nor I could see any, but we may have missed some
[10:08] <cjwatson> feel free to add them
[10:08] <seb128> pitti: I think the mail on the list acted as a call for review ;)
[10:08] <pitti> seb128: WFM
[10:08] <mdz> indeed
[10:08] <bdmurray>  * Bug Day Tasks
[10:09] <mdz> it would be best reviewed by people working on packaging using bzr every day
[10:09] <Mithrandir> ogra-classmate: ice cream, of course.
[10:09] <pitti>  * -security kernel handling
[10:09] <mdz> bdmurray: please go ahead
[10:09] <pitti> keescook: ^ will you stay for this?
[10:09] <dholbach>  * find people who are willing to do ubuntu-dev mentoring :-)
[10:09] <tkamppeter> Any volunteer for writing a new GUI for printerdrake for Gutsy? GNOME and Usability experts?
[10:09] <keescook> pitti: yup
[10:09] <ogra-classmate> Mithrandir: cold water buckets to put your feet in ;)
[10:09] <tkamppeter> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/printerdrake
[10:10] <ogra-classmate> dholbach: count me in for edubuntu people on that
[10:10] <ogra-classmate> dholbach: any team i need to join ?
[10:10] <mdz> bdmurray: bug day tasks?
[10:11] <bdmurray> mdz: right per some discussion at UDS I wanted to setup a list of a quantity of bugs to address
[10:11] <cjwatson> I could be one reviewer on bzr-best-practices, since I meet that criterion (well, maybe not *every* day)
[10:11] <cjwatson> but I shouldn't be the only one
[10:11] <bdmurray> I've started a draft at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20070530 and just wanted review / comments
[10:11] <mdz> bdmurray: sounds like a fine idea
[10:11] <dholbach> ogra-classmate: no, you just need to tell me how many people you could take care of and I'd send them to you (highvoltage and I are the 'reception')
[10:11] <pitti> right, the more opinions, the better
[10:12] <bdmurray> I also wanted to a section of bite-size tagged bugs and perhaps duplicates dholbach's bughelper cron job finds
[10:12] <mdz> bdmurray: that seems like a good list.  should keep folks busy for a little whlie
[10:12] <dholbach> bdmurray: looks like a good idea - I'm sure we can add bugs to the list if people finish them too soon :-)
[10:12] <mvo> pitti: I will be happy to review it too
[10:12] <bdmurray> mdz: I was planning on adding more than that quantity perhaps 100
[10:12] <pitti> bdmurray: I like the idea of a bite-sized portion of bugs which need more attention; staring at ubugto is just a swamp
[10:12] <mdz> seb128: maybe on the first fetch, not for updates :-)
[10:12] <seb128> could we list some distro team members being "on duty" for bug days?
[10:13] <mdz> seb128: perhaps a rotation
[10:13] <cjwatson> that sounds like a good idea; it's always easier to remember when it's your explicit responsibility
[10:13] <seb128> obviously waiting on volontars doesn't work
[10:13] <seb128> mdz: well, I mean changing the people "on duty" every week
[10:13] <mdz> bdmurray: about how many people do you think you need per bug day?
[10:14] <pitti> bdmurray: sounds like it should be combined with the 'mentoring' flag?
[10:14] <seb128> otherwise nobody join (or only a few number of people and always the same ones)
[10:14] <bdmurray> I thought one idea we had was to have the next one in ubuntu-devel to get more developers involved
[10:14] <bdmurray> mdz: not sure maybe 6?
[10:14] <mdz> bdmurray: yes, I think that should be done regardless
[10:15] <seb128> 6 is a bit much
[10:15] <mdz> bdmurray: hmm, I don't think we can devote that much of the team each time
[10:15] <asac> 6 on duty ... what does "on duty" imply?
[10:15] <seb128> I think 3 people is enough
[10:15] <keescook> "6" is total people involved in a hug day or "on duty"?
[10:15] <mdz> asac: focused on bug squashing for that day
[10:15] <bdmurray> I'll defer to seb128 then
[10:15] <adilson> "hug day" :)
[10:15] <cjwatson> asac: what mdz said, plus expected to be paying attention to the channel and helping people out there
[10:15] <seb128> asac: hanging around, having some activity on the chan, replying to people who have questions
[10:15] <pitti> if it means talking to people and looking at bugs fulltime without doing other things, then 6 is indeed quite a dent in productivity
[10:15] <cjwatson> preferably actively talking about what they're doing
[10:15] <seb128> creating a feeling that things are happening
[10:16] <mdz> we could do 3 in a rotation such that everyone gets to participate once every 5 or so bug days
[10:16] <pitti> that sounds good
[10:16] <seb128> well, I think people don't need to spend the day on that
[10:17] <seb128> it's taking like 2-3 hours, showing activity on the chan and reading what's happening
[10:17] <dholbach> everybody in here does 2-3 hours of bug triage a day anyway, right? ;-)
[10:17] <pitti> I often hung out in the channel and occasionally looked at new incoming bugs, but otherwise chatter has been relatively quiet in that channel, so I'm not sure what else to do
[10:17] <seb128> dholbach: I wish
[10:17] <seb128> dholbach: 2-3 hours is a lazy day :p
[10:17] <mdz> it would be interesting if ubugtu would show when someone in the channel touches a bug
[10:18] <ogra-classmate> that would get noisy very fast
[10:18] <seb128> that would create too much flood imho
[10:18] <Seveas> mdz, you want frid eggs with that spam?
[10:18] <seb128> I closed like 200 Needs Info today for example
[10:18] <Seveas> :)
[10:18] <bdmurray> mdz: I find ubugtu noisy enough as it is, I just had apport announcements turned off with Seveas's help
[10:18] <mdz> I wasn't actually thinking about all bugs
[10:18] <seb128> I don't think people on the chan would have made any use of the flood
[10:18] <mdz> but one sees new bugs announced in the channel
[10:18] <pitti> bdmurray: that might require some tweaking with the recent 'title prefix' -> 'tag' change, btw
[10:18] <mdz> but doesn't see who is working on them
[10:19] <Seveas> pitti, can we talk about that after the meeting?
[10:19] <bdmurray> My hope with the wiki is people would put their name by bugs they triaged and try to "do more" and have their name show up a lot
[10:19] <seb128> mdz: how do we know who is working on them?
[10:19] <mdz> maybe the "current screenful" of bugs
[10:19] <seb128> we usually do
[10:19] <pitti> Seveas: yes, let's, in #u-devel
[10:19] <mdz> seb128: I see
[10:20] <mdz> seb128: perhaps not everyone is so diligent :-)
[10:20] <dholbach> something like http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/diaries would be nice (not that much text at once, but explaining what you do with a bug)
[10:20] <heno> dholbach: add a bugbot flag to buglog, to make it send specific bugs to the bot
[10:20] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Diaries I mean
[10:21] <mdz> bdmurray: how often do you run a bug day?
[10:21] <dholbach> heno: once we have buglog up and running that might be a good idea
[10:21] <heno> so when you've just worked on a nice example you can post it
[10:21] <seb128> mdz: that's why I want people "on duty" :p
[10:21] <seb128> like 2-3 people who make efforts to be active on the chan
[10:21] <dholbach> the last one was two weeks before feisty release, or something?
[10:22] <mdz> we should do them on a set schedule, and set up a rotation
[10:22] <bdmurray> mdz: we haven't had one in a while as I've been trying to revamp the idea.  I think once every 2 weeks would be a good start
[10:23] <mdz> ok
[10:23] <mdz> who would be "on duty" for a bug day once every two months?
[10:23] <keescook> I'm game
[10:23] <asac> me obviously
[10:23] <cjwatson> I could manage that
[10:23] <mdz> I would as well
[10:23] <heno> me
[10:23] <pitti> I thought the entire team?
[10:23] <ogra-classmate> me for edubuntu
[10:23] <seb128> o/
[10:24] <Riddell> rather who has an excuse not to be :)
[10:24] <bryce> me too, particularly for all the X-related bugs I see there
[10:24] <mathiaz> too
[10:24] <mdz> Riddell: we're increasingly specialized around here, you know ;-)
[10:24] <heno> how should we time vthese relative to alpha releases, etc?
[10:25] <mdz> bdmurray: ok, you've got 3 people for each of them now
[10:25] <heno> we'll likely have resaonable community testing of ISOs around those
[10:25] <adilson> Riddell: hmmm... my dog ate my pc? :)
[10:25] <mdz> heno: would be good to have a bug day to receive the test results from a milestone
[10:25] <mdz> s/a milestone/each milestone/
[10:25] <Mithrandir> mdz: can we (as in mobile) wait until we have any users? :-P
[10:25] <heno> agreed
[10:26] <mdz> Mithrandir: a bug day sounds like a good way to stay in touch with the rest of the world
[10:26] <mdz> and take a break from the everyday
[10:26] <cjwatson> and it's also good to have a bug day a little before a milestone to hoover up really bad stuff
[10:26] <cjwatson> hi Evan
[10:26] <Mithrandir> mdz: indeed.  I wasn't really serious; a day every second month is something we can spare, for sure.
[10:26] <evand> hello
[10:26] <adilson> mdz: and God know we need after tackling Hildon over and over ;)
[10:26] <ogra-classmate> polease early enough so we dont have to do too many rebiulds
[10:27] <mdz> bdmurray: would you work out a schedule for bug days which includes the duty rotation, and coincides nicely with milestones?
[10:27] <ogra-classmate> *please
[10:27] <cjwatson> ogra-classmate: well, it depends how bad the bugs are :-)
[10:27] <ogra-classmate> indeede
[10:27] <ogra-classmate> but we have a major raise in bugs spam anyway shortly before milestones
[10:27] <bdmurray> mdz: okay. do we have a day of week preference?  I think Tu, Wed or Th is good
[10:28] <mdz> bdmurray: whatever works best for everyone
[10:28] <mdz> we could try it on different days and see what works best with respect to a milestone
[10:28] <cjwatson> Thu coincides with release days
[10:28] <cjwatson> (typically)
[10:29] <dholbach> Wednesday? (there are a couple of meetings on thursdays and tuesdays)
[10:29] <bdmurray> and this so Wed?
[10:29] <seb128> I think wednesday
[10:29] <Mithrandir> I think Tuesday would be better, since stuff will often be frozen on Wednesdays
[10:29] <dholbach> that doesn't stop us doing bug triage :)
[10:29] <pitti> we don't have meetings all day long on Tuesday either
[10:29] <seb128> Mithrandir: that's not really an "upload fixes" day
[10:29] <mdz> dholbach: or fixing bugs either
[10:29] <dholbach> right
[10:29] <mdz> let's try Wednesday and see how it goes
[10:30] <mdz> bug day, hug day, hump day
[10:30] <dholbach> YOOOHOOOO :-)
[10:30] <mdz> let's discuss bdmurray's schedule on list
[10:30] <mdz> pitti: kernel security updates?
[10:30] <BenC> that might scare off the more innocent crowd
[10:30] <pitti> so, I noticed that our recent *-security kernel uploads were quite a bit more than -security
[10:30] <mdz> BenC: you just made elmo laugh
[10:31] <pitti> would it be feasible to have those go through regular -proposed, or is that too much work?
[10:31] <mdz> oh, he's not here. must have been something else
[10:31] <cjwatson> a passing squirrel
[10:31] <pitti> bumping the ABI every time is painful enough with the current -security workflow
[10:31] <cjwatson> (I'd laugh if I saw a squirrel 27 floors up)
[10:31] <mdz> pitti: they should, though they need to be merged into -security eventually
[10:32] <keescook> and just the fear of seeing a regression.  without -proposed, doing the upload is rather binary
[10:32] <pitti> right, there's so much new stuff going into these kernels; I don't really see why we are so strict on SRUs fixing gnome games and so lax on kernels which affect everyone
[10:32] <mdz> pitti: who is 'we'?
[10:33] <mdz> pitti: aren't you and keescook responsible for reviewing security updates?
[10:33] <Keybuk> cjwatson: the building's been buzzed by Apache Gunship helicopters a few times
[10:33] <pitti> well, we define what should go in in the kernel tracker svn, but usually when they get uploaded there's more stuff into them
[10:34] <keescook> the list of changes in the feisty update was giant.  62 changes, 5 were for security.  :P
[10:34] <pitti> so far I regarded that as 'common practice' to avoid even more branches, but it got a little much recently
[10:34] <pitti> keescook: erk
[10:34] <mdz> the two of you need to take responsibility for that
[10:34] <mdz> you're responsible for everything which goes out as a security update
[10:34] <mdz> if it's not OK with you, you need to say no
[10:35] <keescook> BenC: thoughts?
[10:35] <pitti> right; so far it has been a bit like 'get the surprise when you read the .changes file that got uploaded'
[10:35] <mdz> and work with the kernel team so that you have agreement on what is going in *before* it gets uploaded
[10:35] <pitti> yep, that would be prefered
[10:35] <rtg_> pitti, keescook: Of those 62 changes, were there any that were not bug fixes?
[10:35] <pitti> ok, we'll do that discussion on the ML, I think
[10:35] <pitti> rtg_: that's not the point
[10:36] <BenC> all the stuff in feisty update was either sitting there before we even released, or was super well tested prior to upload
[10:36] <pkl_> keescook: there were 4 more which were not CVEs, but were security fixes from Linux 2.6.20 stable.
[10:36] <keescook> rtg_: I'm sure they were all bug fixes, but bugs should be SRU'd.
[10:36] <mdz> BenC: the fact that it was in the tree before we released doesn't make it exempt
[10:36] <BenC> problem is SRU is really a PITA for kernel
[10:36] <pitti> rtg_: also, we should not try and fix every bug in stables
[10:36] <pitti> BenC: right, and it should be a PITA, really
[10:36] <mdz> I recognize that it might be inconvenient to back things out, but I can't stress it enough
[10:36] <BenC> no, I mean it's almost impossible to follow for kernels :)
[10:36] <mdz> being rigorous about security updates is a matter of trust
[10:37] <pitti> BenC: how so?
[10:37] <Mithrandir> SRUs should be painful enough that we don't do them nilly-willy, but easy enough that we actually fix real bugs.
[10:37] <Mithrandir> which is a hard balance to strike.
[10:37] <BenC> The ABI, revisioning, git tree handling, lrm/linux-meta matching, making sure one is newer than the other, etc..
[10:37] <pitti> BenC: that really sounds like the problem is that too much stuff happens on the stable branches then
[10:38] <BenC> we really can't supply a decent -updates kernel
[10:38] <cjwatson> rtg_: (since you don't have the background here, the reason we're so strict is that we have had serious negative backlash in the past from updates that we thought were safe but in practice broke a lot of people's systems; that's why we have a strict policy on updates now)
[10:38] <pitti> BenC: oh, I'm fine with -proposed -> merge to -security for a small number of high-impact patches; -updates is not really required IMHO
[10:38] <BenC> pitti: even one small change requires all this, if it has an ABI bump, or if -security has an ABI bump, and -proposed needs to match -security
[10:38] <mdz> our policy for stable is only to fix high-impact bugs (including security issues)
[10:38] <mdz> full stop
[10:39] <pitti> BenC: so can't we just amalgate several of them and only release them once every two months or so?
[10:39] <tkamppeter> I suggest an SRU for Ghostscript, the new merged Ghostscript (http://www.cups.org/espgs/articles.php?L463) fixes tons of bugs, especially the KDE killers bug 103595 and bug 105752,
[10:39] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 103595 in gs-esp "[GPL GS WORKS]  MASTER [apport]  gs-esp crashed with SIGSEGV in pdf_find_same_resource()" [Medium,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/103595
[10:39] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 105752 in gs-esp "[GPL GS WORKS]  MASTER [apport]  gs-esp crashed with SIGSEGV in gx_image_end()" [Medium,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/105752
[10:39] <mdz> tkamppeter: please read what I just said
[10:39] <pitti> tkamppeter: no, I'm afraid that's way off the scale
[10:39] <cjwatson> tkamppeter: there is no possibility of just dropping the new merged ghostscript into stable
[10:40] <mdz> BenC: we already have an agreement that -proposed doesn't need to match
[10:40] <cjwatson> stable updates need to be carefully targeted such that it's possible to review the patch that fixes just the bugs in question
[10:40] <mdz> BenC: there's a special exception for the kernel in the SRU process for it, which you proposed
[10:40] <pitti> also, -proposed is *much* less painful than -security in terms of uploading and publishing
[10:40] <BenC> mdz: No, I realize that, it's the matching between there...we miss a lot of testing because -proposed has to have a different ABI from what's in stable
[10:41] <BenC> and attempting to match ABI and have versions be sane, creates overhead
[10:41] <pitti> BenC: but then the solution should not be to not test at all IMHO
[10:41] <BenC> pitti: we do test
[10:41] <BenC> we test out of -proposed
[10:41] <BenC> with bug submitters, OEMs, distro-team, etc...
[10:42] <BenC> those things did not get uploaded without me knowing they were tested...
[10:42] <pitti> right, I didn't say they were
[10:42] <BenC> they probably got better testing because we didn't do the -proposed upload
[10:42] <pitti> but ATM it's not really transparent what goes in and what not
[10:42] <BenC> but you said "not test at all" :)
[10:43] <pitti> BenC: right, in -proposed I mean
[10:43] <mdz> BenC: what is your personal criteria for what should go into stable?
[10:43] <mdz> it sounds like we have a disconnection here
[10:43] <mdz> the general policy is well documented
[10:43] <pitti> BenC: I was saying that avoiding a -proposed upload because it's too painful is the wrong way to approach the problem IMHO
[10:43] <mdz> I'd like to see the same for what you think should apply to the kernel
[10:43] <mdz> and then we can discuss it
[10:43] <BenC> for the first feisty upload, it had to fix important hw support (like tifm and sparc64), had to fix some OEM issues, and had to be tested by bug submitters and regressions tested
[10:44] <cjwatson> I don't think all the stuff that was in the tree from pre-release satisfied those criteria
[10:44] <BenC> but definitely, I'd love to make this more transparent, so maybe a discussion later would be good
[10:45] <pitti> BenC: right, let's continue on the ML maybe?
[10:45] <BenC> sure thing
[10:45] <mdz> BenC: please take a little time and write it down in detail, so that we have a basis for a discussion
[10:45] <pitti> me will start a thread
[10:45] <BenC> will do
[10:45] <pitti> BenC: thank you
[10:45] <BenC> PPA would resolve a lot of this :)
[10:45] <mdz> dholbach: ubuntu-dev mentoring?
[10:46] <dholbach> we have a new mentoring process for people who want to become ubuntu-dev - we want to get them far enough to know the processes and the tools, so they find their way around easily
[10:46] <dholbach> for that we changed the process to have 'reception' which takes on mentoring requests and assigns mentors to contributors
[10:46] <dholbach> it'd be nice to have some more people who are willing to help out
[10:47] <dholbach> and pass easy tasks to people and review what they do
[10:47] <cjwatson> BenC: PPA's up on dogfood, so if you would like to start trying it, talk to Celso
[10:47] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentoring for more information
[10:47] <BenC> cjwatson: ok, thanks
[10:47] <mdz> what dholbach means to say is this
[10:48] <mdz> if you have more work than you can do, you can hand off some small tasks to prospective MOTUs
[10:48] <pitti> mdz: as always, the marketing expert :)
[10:48] <mdz> in exchange for answering their questions as they help you with your work
[10:48] <mdz> they learn, your todo list shrinks
[10:48] <mdz> everybody wins
[10:48] <dholbach> thanks mdz :-)
[10:48] <mdz> now let's see some hands!
[10:49] <ogra-classmate> yay, lets train delegation!
[10:49] <asac> i am doing this already ... so why not :)
[10:50] <dholbach> drop me a mail and tell me how many contributors you think you could deal with and I'll add you to the list
[10:50] <pitti> I flagged some of my bugs as mentoring, I think that's a convenient and dynamic way of indicating where new devs can start
[10:50] <mdz> heno: are you already an official mentor?
[10:50] <adilson> Well, there's a lot of people interested on helping over the embedded stuff but I think I'm too green yet to really mentor anyone.
[10:50] <BenC> dholbach: how many are most people mentoring at a time?
[10:50] <dholbach> most do 2
[10:50] <mdz> bryce: surely you have some extra bugs you could pass on to a prospective developer :-)
[10:50] <bryce> definitely
[10:51] <heno> mdz: not for MOTU ...
[10:51] <bryce> however I'm not a MOTU so not sure if I fit in this scheme
[10:51] <dholbach> I do 5 and it works ok - bear in mind that there are people who don't know how to use dpkg-buildpackage or how to use debdiff too, we have a lot of very keen people
[10:51] <mdz> bryce: you're not *yet*
[10:51] <keescook> bryce: you'll be there.  :)
[10:51] <ogra-classmate> adilson: dont underestimate the learning effect you have by helping others
[10:51] <ogra-classmate> ;)
[10:51] <heno> but I've offered mentoring on various specs
[10:51] <keescook> I'm happy to do this too, I already mentor folks for security updates
[10:52] <Mithrandir> adilson: if you take up somebody, I'm happy to be "second line of support" if they come up with questions you can't answer.
[10:52] <bryce> in any case, I'd be happy to work with anyone interested in fixing X bugs :-)
[10:52] <dholbach> the mentoring feature in LP is nice, but I feel that people work better if you give them a task that you know is easy :)
[10:52] <mdz> adilson: as ogra points out, you learn quickly by teaching :-)
[10:52] <adilson> Mithrandir: Well, in that case, what the hell, full steam ahead. COunt me on :)
[10:52] <pitti> dholbach: if you see someone interested in Utopia stuff, point her/him to me
[10:52] <pitti> dholbach: (you do that anyway, of course, but just to reiterate :) )
[10:53] <mdz> ok, we're running short on time
[10:53] <mdz> is there any other business for the meeting?
[10:53] <dholbach> pitti: ok
[10:53] <pitti> what's the current plan for spec approval?
[10:53] <pitti> they'll just happen in the next one or two weeks or so?
[10:53] <mdz> pitti: the plan is that specs will be approved :-)
[10:54] <cjwatson> it's due by next Thursday, IIRC
[10:54] <mdz> if you're wondering about a particular approver, ask them
[10:54] <ogra-classmate> pitti: end of the moth for community driven specs iirc
[10:54] <Keybuk> pitti: if you haven't had comments from me so far, that's a good sign ;)
[10:54] <mdz> the deadline is 31 May
[10:54] <pitti> cjwatson: that sounds like a concrete plan, thanks
[10:54] <pitti> Keybuk: *phew* :)
[10:54] <mdz> which is next Thursday
[10:54] <tkamppeter> See you all on the LinuxTag in Berlin.
[10:54] <cjwatson> merge status
[10:54] <adilson> tkamppeter: I wish :)
[10:55] <pitti> we're doing quite well this time, don't we? almost down to 100 or so
[10:55] <cjwatson> 86 outstanding merges is pretty good at this point, but we need to keep pushing on through
[10:55] <cjwatson> if you have a lot, hand them off rather than sitting on them
[10:55] <tkamppeter> I will come to the Ubuntu boothe several times on the first two days.
[10:55] <mdz> 86
[10:55] <Keybuk> pitti: this was deliberate <g>
[10:55] <kwwii> ogra-classmate: let me know if there are any graphic related items you need
[10:56] <mdz> Mithrandir: you should find a home for your merges, given mobile
[10:56] <tkamppeter> On the other two days I will work towards the grand unified printing dialog with 5 Usability experts, hope the dialog will make it into Gutsy+1 ...
[10:56] <ogra-classmate> kwwii: for now i'm fine scaling the feisty artwork to the correct sizes... we'll need to talk about a possible gutsy image later
[10:57] <kwwii> ogra-classmate: cool
[10:57] <Mithrandir> mdz: yup, or just do them, there aren't that many of them.
[10:57] <heno> cjwatson: all my specs are up for review now. who should I poke about that, the approver or find a separate reviewer?
[10:57] <ogra-classmate> kwwii: actually i'm done with the feity stuff apart from usplash
[10:57] <tkamppeter> Everyone who likes to work with GUI and Printing is invited to join the OpenPrinting Usability/GUI Meeting on Friday and Saturday June 1 and 2 on LinuxTag in Berlin.
[10:57] <Mithrandir> mdz: I'll see if I can give them away to somebody.
[10:57] <pitti> Mithrandir: oh, just four for you; but tell me if you need help, they don't look too scary
[10:58] <mdz> ok, sounds like we're done for tonight
[10:58] <kwwii> tkamppeter: just make sure that Ellen helps :-)
[10:58] <cjwatson> heno: just the approver, I think
[10:58] <mdz> we had deliverables from bdmurray and BenC
[10:58] <tkamppeter> kwwii, Ellen is still working at OpenUsability, but not any more on the printing GUI.
[10:58] <heno> cjwatson: ok so in most cases that's you ;)
[10:59] <mdz> adjourned, thanks everyone
[10:59] <mdz> and good night
[10:59] <pitti> thanks, guys
[10:59] <cjwatson> heno: yeah, I have a big list
[10:59] <asac> thanks everybody ... cu
[10:59] <adilson> Thanks for the warm welcome and good night!
[10:59] <seb128> 'night
[10:59] <bdmurray> Thanks
[10:59] <kwwii> tkamppeter: yeah, I just figured she'd be in berlin as she lives there :-)
[10:59] <mathiaz> thanks - 'night
[10:59] <BenC> good night everyone
[10:59] <kwwii> and with that, I wish you all a good night
[11:00] <tkamppeter> The five experts are Jan Muehlig, Peter Sikking, Josef Spillner, Andrea alessandrini, and Celeste Lyn Paul.
[11:00] <bryce> cya all!
[11:00] <dholbach> (and please mail me about the mentoring thing)
[11:00] <heno> cjwatson: I can imagine
[11:00] <ogra-classmate> thanks
[11:00] <asac> dholbach: sure
[11:00] <tkamppeter> kwwii, but if you want to join, feel free to participate.
[11:00] <mvo> good night
[11:00] <pkl_> bye
[11:00] <kwwii> tkamppeter: unfortunately I won't be attending after all
[11:00] <keescook> cya
[11:00] <tkamppeter> See you next week live at the LinuxTag in Berlin.
[11:01] <dholbach> ogra-classmate: ROCK ON
[11:02] <tkamppeter> unfortunately, I cannot join the Ubuntu session, as it is in parallel with the Printing GUI Meeting ...