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Hobbseeranf: 30 mins01:26
ranfHobbsee, k thanks01:33
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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: MOTU | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 May 14:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 May 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 29 May 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 30 May 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 30 May 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers
dholbachsiretart: do you know if sistpoty is going to turn up for the meeting?01:56
dholbachthe first agenda item is his, but I reckon it's of an old agenda - I remember we discussed this at least twice before01:56
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siretartdholbach: I haven't seen him today, but I know he's starting his new job next week (I think on monday)01:57
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dholbachStevenK: we're 100 in the channel already :)01:58
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StevenKajmitch: Surely we're more interesting?01:59
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ajmitchStevenK: "no, not in the slightest"02:00
dholbachok, let's get started02:00
dholbachagenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings02:00
dholbachScottK wanted us to agree on a policy for something like clamav backports02:00
ScottKdholbach: Want me to start the discussion then?02:01
ScottKThe current problem is that the clamav 0.90 versions cannot be directly backported because they break stuff that depends on them02:01
ScottKbut the current packages have outstanding security issues that no one has stepped up to fix.02:02
dholbachhow does stuff break?02:02
minghuaanything we can take from volatile.debian.org?02:02
ScottKGoing from 0.8x to 0.9x some of the interfaces changed02:02
dholbachor how would a fix look like?02:02
dholbachright, so it's some kind of library transition?02:02
ScottKAdditionally, the lib went from libclamav1 to libclamav202:03
Hobbseedholbach: means that klamav doesnt start / crashes / etc, and other related programs, which are binary incompatible with 0.8 & 0.902:03
StevenKI'm also guessing that ClamAV break ABI compatibility without bumping their SOVER?02:03
minghuaI think I remember, volatile.debian.org updated clamav as well as all packages that depend on it02:03
dholbachthe problem with backports is that we can't upload directly to it and stuff is synced (if I understand it correctly)02:03
ScottKThe problem is that there are a LOT of redepends.02:03
StevenKminghua: Yes, but volatile is completly seperate. I can't see feisty-volatile getting created just for ClamvAV and friends.02:04
ScottKAnd so ugrading all the stuff that might break is, I think, a non-starter02:04
FujitsuI think we are able to modify stuff now, dholbach.02:04
StevenKAlthough, PPA might be a way around this.02:04
FujitsuOr we were meant to be able to soon.02:04
dholbach13 source packages if I counted correctly02:04
Hobbseedholbach: sounds about right, i was counting binaries02:04
dholbachI think it might make sense to look into how much effort fixes are02:05
StevenKI think we're going to have to deal with the rdepends anyway. They will break/need dealing with no matter what path we take.02:05
dholbachI can't imagine that all library calls have been changed completely02:05
ScottKIn thinking about this, I thought about something like separate repo for clamav and it's redepends, but that just seemed to hard02:05
siretartdholbach: we DO can upload directly to -backports02:05
dholbachsiretart: ok, good to know02:05
ScottKThe latest proposal I made on what to do is here https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2007-May/001649.html02:05
siretartdholbach: the upload will be pocketed, and pitti asked to be notified about that case02:05
siretartor better the archive-admins in general02:06
dholbachsiretart: I asked because I wasn't sure if it makes sense to backport complete new upstream versions (which might need other stuff)02:06
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ScottKdholbach: No one has stepped up to maintain the current versions and so I think it's a choice between the new upstream versions and nothing.02:06
dholbachScottK: what would be built against clamav-alt?02:07
Hobbseei really dont think we can give users a credible experience of clamav, with the old, buggy version02:07
StevenKI agree.02:07
Hobbseeparticularly as servers probably use virus scanners and such, like clamav and friends02:07
dholbachHobbsee: I think we all agreed that it's a problem we need to deal with. :-)02:07
siretartwhat about having the clamav backport in a PPA until we consider them 'mature', and then sync them to -backports?02:07
StevenKAnd users might well get confused if say, klamav doesn't get fixed to use clamav-alt ...02:07
Hobbseeif anything, these are the sorts of packages we need to update for LTS, and be exempt from the "no updates" rule02:08
dholbachWould somebody volunteer to check how much changed in the library interfaces?02:08
ScottKI think an important part of the proposal is to gather a team of end users to test this stuff and then have a wiki about what breaks and what doesn't.02:08
StevenKBugs aplenty about how klamav uses an old clamav.02:08
dholbachScottK: team++02:08
Hobbseedholbach: plenty of impressive dupes over how klamav was utterly *stuffed* with the new clamav02:08
dholbachHobbsee: I can imagine02:08
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ScottKAt least klamav runs.  Clamtk is utterly hopeless right now.02:09
dholbachmy proposal is: check what changed in the library interfaces, hope that it's not that much, patch the apps to work with libclamav2, upload all the stuff to -proposed, then to -updates02:09
Hobbseeyou'd have to build all of the rdepends against clamav-alt, i guess.02:09
dholbachmaybe I don't understand it correctly, but I don't see what clamav-alt would gain us02:09
dholbachgiven that we need to rebuild stuff against it anyways02:10
Hobbseedholbach: twitch.  is anyone *seriously* that dedicated to these packages to maintained an upstream delta, which they had to do security fixes for?02:10
StevenKBut clamav-alt would require changes.02:10
Hobbseei'd partially be in favour of just doing clamav with a security update, or something02:10
StevenKA rebuild requires a debian/changelog change.02:10
ScottKdholbach: The idea would be to enable people to knowingly install the latest clamav and accept the risk.02:10
Hobbseeis there really a use case for the old clamav, without security fixes?02:10
dholbachScottK: but if stuff is not built against it (and changed it need be), nothing will use it02:10
StevenKHobbsee: It's known stable? :-P02:11
ScottKThere are things that just work.  From the limited testing I've does, I think stuff that uses clamd is fine02:11
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dholbachWhat about this: get a team of people interested in clamav together and research which package needs which kind of work02:11
dholbachit should be easier to go from there when we have the information02:11
ScottKWhat underlies this issue is the different needs for desktop and server.02:12
dholbachat the moment I feel that a lot of guessing is involved02:12
minghuaI have a question, are we trying to fix this for dapper only, or dapper, edgy and feisty?02:12
Hobbseeminghua: feisty got fixed - it got a UVFe for all of it, i think02:12
dholbachminghua: best to have a general solution02:12
Hobbseeminghua: klamav certainly did02:12
ScottKIf all we cared about was servers and clamd, then it'd backport OK.02:12
StevenKThis will come up for feisty at some point, I daresay.02:12
ScottKclamav and klamav are current in Feisty.02:12
StevenKThe reason it hasn't yet is because it was released last month.02:12
minghuaI am just thinking backporting for all three releases would increase the work quite a bit02:13
ScottKAt the very least I think that Dapper MUST be addressed.02:13
StevenKI agree.02:13
FujitsuEdgy is unimportant, IMO02:13
dholbachwho would join the team and investigate in how big the changes are?02:13
StevenKEven if we just say we're fixing clamav for the LTS release, and complaining Edgy users can upgrade.02:13
dholbachif we do dapper, we can do edgy too (it'd be similar kind of fixes)02:13
StevenKdholbach: That's conjecture at this point.02:14
dholbachright - I just feel that we need more information before we can move on and make a decision02:14
Hobbseei cant really see a use case for non LTS releases - they're not servers, with the long support02:14
minghuaI feel we lack important information -- affected packages, their versions in three releases, so maybe better discussed on list?02:14
StevenKI concur with both Hobbsee and dholbach02:14
dholbachminghua: right02:15
ScottKI can tell you that with some adjustments in version requirements in debian/control that don't appear to affect anything, you can build the current Gutsy clamav package on Dapper.02:15
FujitsuIsn't Feisty alright, minghua?02:15
ScottKFWIW, keescook said he couldn't make it today, but he liked the clamav-alt plan02:15
ScottKFujitsu: Feisty is OK today, but how long will that last.02:15
Hobbseeand klamav-alt, etc, plan, presumably02:15
minghuaFujitsu: I have no idea, I haven't touched clamav at all :-)02:15
FujitsuScottK: Ah yes, true.02:16
StevenKI personally don't like the -alt plan.02:16
dholbachlet's form the team, make a wiki page with affected packages and let's try to rebuild them in dapper and edgy chroots with the new clamav and see how they work02:16
=== Hobbsee only touched klamav, when she noticed the number of bugs next to it, all about it being utterly and totally broken
FujitsuHas upstream considered any method of stopping this sort of thing happening in future?02:16
StevenKFujitsu: You tell funny jokes.02:16
ScottKTheir method is upgrade to the latest, it's less than 1.0, so no API stability is promised02:17
Hobbseei think that for this type of stuff, we *need* to make sure we're communicating about what major base libs we're updating, so that the rdepends are fixed.02:17
ScottKOne thing that will help in the futue is the with the klamav in Feisty the function to get a new upstream source, download it, compile it, and install it works.  I tested it.02:17
StevenKI wouldn't call libclamav2 a major base lib, fwiw. :-P02:17
StevenKScottK: To /usr or /usr/local?02:17
Hobbseewell, no, i meant "something with over 10 rdepends of different source packages" or something02:18
ScottKTo /usr/local iirc02:18
StevenKHobbsee: Why 10?02:18
HobbseeStevenK: because it's an arbitary number.02:18
StevenKHobbsee: Good answer.02:18
HobbseeStevenK: and because 42 was too high.02:18
StevenKScottK: Good, just so long it doesn't wipe out the packages files.02:18
ScottKSo in the future, klamav users will be able to bootstrap themselves02:18
ScottKStevenK: It doesn't.02:18
crimsunin the interest of time, can we agree to investigate offband and report back via the list?02:19
dholbachok, let's get more information about the magnitude of work that lies in front of us02:19
ScottKI tested that02:19
Hobbseecrimsun: +102:19
dholbachI agree with crimsun02:19
StevenKI concur with crimsun02:19
dholbachScottK: I'm happy to help you with the team and announce it02:19
=== ScottK isn't qualified to do the library investigation work. Who will lead that?
dholbachScottK: let's discuss together with pitti and keescook02:19
dholbachok, let's move on02:20
dholbachthanks ScottK02:20
dholbachpersia: U-U-S Queue Procedure Review / Approval02:20
persiaI've put together a draft guide for the workflow (and criteria) for managing the Ubuntu Universe Sponsors queue at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Sponsorship/SponsorsQueue.02:20
persiaThe idea is to have a standard workflow that keeps us from stepping on each others toes and helps move towards an empty queue.02:20
persiaI'd like to ask that people review it, and if there are no objections, that all people working on the queue follow this procedure.02:20
ajmitch& keeping it empty :)02:20
persiaajmitch: Exactly02:20
StevenKI daresay u-u-s will never be empty. :-)02:20
ajmitchwe can try02:21
geserwhat about debdiffs or sync request that need some work from the submitter? should they be set to "needs info"?02:22
dholbach"in progress" and assign to the submitter?02:23
HobbseeStevenK: it will when LP fixes a bug that i reported02:23
persiageser: Right, set to "Needs Info", unsub UUS, assign the submitter, and ask for resubscription when complete.02:23
StevenKI like dholbach's suggestion better.02:23
StevenKHobbsee: ... that removes the team? :-P02:23
FujitsuHobbsee: The searching for bugs in some context subscribed to by someone?02:23
HobbseeStevenK: no - lets us search by only ubuntu bugs subscribed by u-u-s02:23
dholbachcan we make sure it is mentioned on  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess ?02:24
persiadholbach: I prefer "Needs Info" for that.  "In Progress" implies someone is doing something.  I would expect the submitter to reset if they start work.02:24
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Hobbseegeser: needs info, i'd prefer02:24
dholbachboth is fine with me02:24
StevenKYeah, okay, persia convinced me. "Needs Info" here too02:24
geseris that unsub U-U-S needed immediately?02:24
persiadholbach: I can add it to that page, but shouldn't we get acceptance by U-M-S first?02:24
dholbachpersia: at least in the universe section of it02:25
StevenKI'm a member of u-m-s, but I can't speak for them.02:25
persiageser: I'd argue that unsub first is important: it reduces our bugmail.02:25
dholbachand yeah, good to get it discussed on devel-discuss too02:25
Hobbseewho's the head of it?  ajmitch?02:25
persiadholbach: OK.  I'll do that.02:25
StevenKI thought pitti was.02:25
StevenKYes, it's pitti.02:25
crimsunpoint #5 under "Notes for Contributors" - can we clarify the distinction between "bugs that require approval by ubuntu-dev" and "bugs that represent a new candidate revision"?02:25
ajmitchHobbsee: hm?02:26
StevenKHrm. We could just drag pitti in here...02:26
Hobbseeajmitch: sorry02:26
HobbseeStevenK: not a bad idea02:26
dholbachand maybe refer to FreezeExceptionProcess too02:26
=== Hobbsee pings
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persiacrimsun: I was thinking rather to flesh out the MOTU/Contributing namespace (or MOTU Recipies), but we'll discuss that later.  If nothing happens, then yes.02:26
crimsunpersia: ok.02:26
=== ajmitch hugs pitti
persiapitti I've put together a draft guide for the workflow (and criteria) for managing the Ubuntu Universe Sponsors queue at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Sponsorship/SponsorsQueue.  What do you think about it for main?02:27
geserpersia: no danger to lose some bugs as the submitter forgot to sub u-u-s again?02:27
Hobbseei'm hesitant to use assignments with all of this - until someone's actually uploading the debdiff02:27
pittioh, quite much, reading02:27
StevenKSurely we don't need to assign to ourselves when we upload?02:28
Hobbseegeser: then the subscriber really needs to learn to follow proceedures, as the buglist is too big to search randomly02:28
HobbseeStevenK: cant really see where we need to assign ourselves at all, really02:28
persiageser: I don't think so.  I think with the new mentoring, we're developing enough active contributors that people will start searching for bugs with patches, and needs info that haven't been updated recently are good targets.02:28
StevenKHobbsee: Agreed.02:28
Hobbseeoh, which is what is said.02:28
persiaHobbsee: Assignment is to make sure we don't collide.02:28
dholbachand we should have regular universe hug days02:28
StevenKpersia: Surely we just comment saying "Mine! Hand's off"02:29
Hobbseedholbach: regular revu days too - pick a day of the week for each02:29
StevenKThen again, that takes about as long as assigning it to yourself.02:29
HobbseeStevenK: as long as someone comments on it asap, if they can see other people working on the buglist.  not half an hour later.02:29
dholbachHobbsee: ok, let's get back to that on the 'regular' agenda point :)02:29
Hobbseedholbach: ah, it's on the agenda already is it?  great.02:30
persiaStevenK: I prefer assignment & in-progress, as it tells both the reporter and the submitter that someone is working on it in a nice way, and will translate better if LP ever gets localised bugmail.02:30
StevenKHobbsee: Yeah, but the thought I had was it takes the same amount of time to do either.02:30
persiaStevenK: Right.02:30
Hobbseei dont care what people od, as long as they make it obvious02:30
Hobbseeelse i will use the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  on them.02:30
StevenKpersia: Damn it, stop changing my mind for me!02:30
pittipersia: why 'fix committed' for uploaded packages with applied patches? that should be 'fix released'02:30
persiaI want everyone to do the same thing.  That reduces confusion.02:31
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minghua"fix released" only when it's built, I suppose?02:31
Hobbseepitti: they all like doing that because they dont know if will build on all arches02:31
gpocentekhello guys, sorry for being late02:31
Hobbseeseems crazy to me02:31
Hobbseehi gpocentek02:31
persiapitti: No.  The submitter should set to "Fix Released" if everything builds ok.  otherwise we haven't really realeased it.02:31
Hobbseeseeing as you will get emails of the buildlogs if it fails, and often people dont go back and do it.02:31
pittiHobbsee: I disagree, uploaders will get mails about FTBFS, and bugs are just forgotten to be closed IMHO02:31
persiaHobbsee: We dont, only the submitter does.  This way, we can see the Fix Committed bugs in the +assigned list and clean up after them if required.02:32
=== dholbach agrees with pitti there
Hobbseepitti: that's either what i said, or what i meant to say.02:32
pittipersia: that's not really common practice, but *shrug* I can certainly live with it if the process makes sure that someone closes those bugs02:32
persiapitti: The person uploading doesn't get the mail: the last person in the changelog gets the mail.02:32
Hobbseepersia: you can also see the links in +packages02:32
pittiHobbsee: yeah, I was just too slow with typing :)02:32
Hobbseefor the person who's name was in the changelog02:33
persiaHobbsee: When I sponsor, it doesn't appear in my +packages.02:33
Hobbseewhich shows FTBFS, bugs, etc.02:33
dholbachhow about we discuss this on the list too? I think it's better use of our time if we collect arguments about specific points there and propose it for main on ubuntu-devel-discuss@ a week later after we're all happy - in general it's a good proposal02:33
Hobbseepersia: no - it appears in the sponsoree's.02:33
pittipersia: then we should rather fix that to email both (Changed-By: person and sponsor)02:33
Hobbseepersia: who is the one responsible for it, of coruse.02:33
persiapitti: Maybe.02:33
StevenKpitti: I like that.02:33
persiadholbach: OK.  I'll send the mail inviting discussion.02:34
Hobbseepitti: that'd be good02:34
dholbachpersia: thanks a lot02:34
pittipersia: otherwise this sounds good to me02:34
dholbachpersia: everything clarified?02:34
persiaLet's move on, but if anyone wants to use the draft process in the meantime, that would be great.02:34
dholbachjoejaxx: MOTU Reports/Statistics02:34
joejaxxi have been generating statics on the archive for a release now02:34
joejaxxand some people have expressed that they would like expanded stats02:34
Hobbseeis this MOM type statistics, or waht?02:35
joejaxxright now i only do top uploaders and top 10 changed packages02:35
joejaxxtop 10 uploaders*02:35
geserHobbsee: http://ubuntu.joejaxx.org/02:35
=== dholbach is number 3 - yooohoo
=== ajmitch won't be near the top anytime soon
joejaxxso i was wondering if there were any other statistics that people would like to have generated02:36
ajmitchtop bugs opened/closed per week?02:36
Hobbseenumbers of unmet deps, numbers of broken (uninstallable) packages02:36
dholbachjoejaxx: how about this: you put the source for the statistics generation in LP, create a product for it and ask people to file wishlist bugs on it?02:36
Hobbseehighest number of dupes bugs02:36
joejaxxdholbach: ok that sounds like a good idea02:36
dholbachthat way you even get people who work with you on enhancing it02:36
dholbachjoejaxx: you had some other points on the agenda too02:37
joejaxxthat way we have documented requets02:37
FujitsuOr put it in LP. That'd make more sense, except...02:37
Hobbseemaybe even http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/gutsy_probs.html type thing for universe if that helps02:37
joejaxxdholbach: ah yes02:37
ajmitchby the bug opened/closed, I mean like http://bugzilla.gnome.org/reports/weekly-bug-summary.cgi02:37
StevenKHobbsee: Oooh, ouch, britney for universe.02:37
StevenKHobbsee: Britney, much like her namesake is a pig.02:38
joejaxxi was wondering if anyone else thinks it would be a good idea to have lin{tian, da} reports on packages?02:38
HobbseeStevenK: i think it may be a horrible output, though02:38
dholbachjoejaxx: it'd be nice if you would announce it on the list, so you get maximum exposure and maximum input02:38
joejaxxdholbach: sure02:38
dholbachjoejaxx: your next point was?02:38
Hobbseethis should be checked with teh developer weather report, from UDS, too.02:38
StevenKjoejaxx: And then generation time goes up by exponentionally.02:38
Hobbseea lot of this either is, or will be, generated for main02:38
joejaxxi am wondering how we would go about doing that02:38
joejaxxdholbach: lintian/linda reports02:39
StevenKWeather Report, heh. "Gutsy is currently raining bugs."02:39
dholbachI think it's best adressed in a soyuz wishlist bug, what do you think?02:39
joejaxxdholbach: i am guessing that would have to be a discussion with the LP devel team?02:39
geserajmitch: something like http://people.ubuntu-in.org/~carthik/bugstats/ ?02:39
joejaxxdholbach: sure but i am wondering if anyone else sees the benefits from having them02:39
Hobbseeare we looking to do package stats or bugstats here?02:39
ajmitchgeser: except by package02:40
ajmitchHobbsee: I was suggesting a mix02:40
Hobbseei'd like to see package stats.  bugstats seem to already being done02:40
Hobbseeat least somewhat02:40
ajmitchbut I don't know how useful it'll really be02:40
dholbachwhat 'next steps' can we agree on here?02:40
StevenKTell us who to beat for breaking a package?02:40
HobbseeStevenK: no, just which packages are broken.02:41
FujitsuStevenK: It's all my fault.02:41
=== Hobbsee blames Fujitsu.
StevenKFujitsu: We know, thanks.02:41
StevenKHobbsee: And therefore, who to blame. :-P02:41
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dholbachok... joejaxx: anything you want to discuss some more?02:42
joejaxxdholbach: well i am going to submit a wishlist bug for this and then poke the LP devs02:42
joejaxxdholbach: nope i think everything was covered :)02:42
Hobbseejoejaxx: anything you can do yourself will be quicker02:42
dholbachlaserjock is not here, he wanted clarification of the +mentoring functionatlity02:42
HobbseeLP stuff takes at least 6 months, iirv02:42
FujitsuAm I the only one who thinks that such a wishlist bug isn't going to get looked at for at least a couple of years?02:42
dholbachI don't think there's much to say about it, other than: use it, make heavy use of it02:43
joejaxxHobbsee: oh ok02:43
persiaThat was raised in part because I asked that people listed on the old mentoring page +mentor some bugs.  What do people think?02:43
dholbachpersia: I'm not sure I understand02:43
crimsundholbach: would tie in nicely with a Q&A session (next agendum item)02:43
persiadholbach: Sorry.  Context.  LaserJock's agenda item.02:44
dholbachFujitsu: if we can demonstrate the use it is for us02:44
minghuaFujitsu: well, I know important bugs in main packages that haven't been looked for years, so no surprise :-/02:44
StevenKAn explanation of the mentoring system for idiots like me would be nice.02:44
HobbseeStevenK: +102:44
HobbseeStevenK: to the explanation, -1 to the idiot part.02:44
Fujitsudholbach: ... then it will get the motu tag added, and still sit around for at least a year or two.02:44
StevenKHobbsee: :-)02:44
FujitsuWhat Hobbsee said.02:44
StevenKFujitsu: The first, or the second? :_P02:44
FujitsuBoth, of course.02:45
dholbachIf you come across bugs that you would like to see fixed and that you are capable to fix, it's great to let somebody else the work and you share your knowledge and help develop new MOTUs02:45
crimsunis a great intro.02:45
minghuamost bugs I'd like to mentor are in main packages :-(02:45
dholbachminghua: that's fine02:45
persiaminghua: No reason you can't02:45
minghuaand I can't find a team to label, so I didn't offer mentoring02:46
dholbachminghua: as long as you can help with them getting fixed - you can even explain the sponsoring process with that02:46
minghuaLP needs to be fixed on that02:46
dholbachminghua: use ubuntu-dev for that as people who want to join ubuntu-dev will look there02:46
persiaminghua: Use ubuntu-dev02:46
minghuaokay, will do that, thanks02:46
dholbachFujitsu: the LP people are very busy as everybody else - the best you can do is elaborate on why it's important for you02:46
dholbachany more questions about mentoring?02:47
Hobbseehow much is mentoring expected to be a spoon feeding process?02:47
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FujitsuHobbsee: I suspect it will be a fair bit with -dev.02:48
dholbachpointing in the right direction and agreeing to review and correcting the mentoree should be it02:48
Hobbseewell, how much are we wanting it to be02:48
persiaMy experience is that the first bug is spoon feeding, but after that it works more smoothly.02:48
persia(for ech contributor)02:48
Hobbseebecause i've go tthe feeling we're giving off the impression of "i need a mentor to do anything, and cant do anything until i get one"02:48
dholbachmaybe the MOTU/Recipes will help with that02:48
Hobbseeand "they will be able to help me thru absolutely everything, all the time"02:49
dholbachHobbsee: good point, I'll add that to the mentoring docs02:49
Hobbseethere doesnt seem tob e a "warning, you will need to actually think and put in work to do this" type idea.02:49
StevenK"Your mentor is not your guide to all things Ubuntu" etc, etc02:49
dholbachit's not rude to ask people to try and check some manpages you list them02:49
Hobbsee"your mentor is not a substitute brain, nor substitute documentation"02:49
dholbachok... any more questions?02:50
Hobbseeno - but i suspect people will view it as such regardless02:50
StevenKdholbach: Some people can take it as such,02:50
dholbachas long as you're being supportive and draw a line somewhere people will understand02:50
Hobbseesome extra special snowflakes then bitch about how the mentor wont do the work fro them, etc :P02:50
crimsunI'm happy to do a Q&A on mentoring if there's interest. (can even do ubuntu-audio bugs  *cough*)02:50
Hobbseeyou really hate alsa, don't you, crimsun...02:51
crimsunno, I love it!02:51
dholbachok, shall we move on? :)02:51
=== StevenK twitches. Someone said ALSA
dholbachshall we have regular MOTU Q&A sessions, where contributors can ask questions and wiki-fy them afterwards?02:51
dholbachwhat about every two weeks?02:51
Hobbseethat sounds smart02:51
StevenKThat isn't music you're hearing, it's the sound of computed gotos!02:51
ajmitchsounds good02:52
dholbachthey don't need a special format, we just need to make sure some of us are there02:52
Hobbseeit seems to work better tahn the documentation - even people reading the logs of them afterwards02:52
StevenKdholbach: Sounds good to me too02:52
ajmitchdholbach: like the school? :)02:52
Hobbseei've often heard people going "i'm intending to go back and read teh MOTU school logs"02:52
minghuadholbach: are we trying to make an MOTU FAQ here?02:52
StevenKThe School requires someone to be organise and teach. Q&A requires a bunch of people to answer questions.02:52
Hobbseei suspect ti'd be slightly more in depth than that02:53
Hobbseebut ture02:53
Hobbseethis stuff should usually be added to the FAQ02:53
crimsunminghua: probably initially less "FA" and just more "Q" :)02:53
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StevenKWe have an FAQ?02:53
dholbachok... first sessions May 31st? 0 UTC and 12 UTC?02:53
minghuaI would like to see such sessions happen02:53
Hobbseeit's got hardly anything on it, but yes02:54
crimsundholbach: sounds good.02:54
geserStevenK: the answer to this question can be found in the FAQ :)02:54
dholbachI'll announce them02:54
StevenKgeser: Oh, blah.02:54
minghuawe alternate 0 UTC and 12 UTC every other session, right?02:54
crimsunminghua: I think have both.02:54
dholbachminghua: I thought it'd be good to have 2 sessions02:54
dholbachso everybody has a chance to be there02:54
minghuaoh, *and*, that's good02:55
dholbach(to have been in at least once)02:55
dholbachok, moving on02:55
dholbachDanielHolbach: start off ?MOTU/Recipes, where we walk people through02:55
dholbach   1.02:55
dholbach      making a small change and getting a debdiff for it02:55
dholbach   2.02:55
dholbach      updating a package02:55
dholbach   3.02:55
dholbach      dropping a dpatch in a package02:55
dholbach   4.02:55
dholbach      use pbuilder to test if Build-Depends are ok02:55
dholbach   5.02:55
dholbach      etc.02:55
dholbachthis is something people have been constantly asking for02:55
persiaTo go with the sponsoring documentation, I've been drafting basic information to populate the MOTU/Contributing namespace.  This would include descriptions for Fixing Bugs (using MOTU/HowToPatch), Preparing Revisions (New Document), Packaging new software (new document), and pointers to MOTU/TODO for more things to do.  Would this meet the needs of MOTU/Recipies?02:55
persiaMy goal is something that looks like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToFix, but targeted at MOTU Contributors (with more knowledget, etc.).02:55
dholbachsome repeatable steps that show them that it's not all rocket science and tools are easy to use and give them the feeling they achieved something02:56
dholbachpersia: yes, that sounds very good02:56
Hobbsee+1 persia02:57
dholbachpersia: maybe we should start each of those pages off with a series of steps they can just type in and see something happen that results in a debdiff or a package or something else02:57
StevenKpersia: Sounds great.02:57
dholbachso they go from zero to hero in no time02:57
dholbachpersia: what do you think?02:57
persiadholbach: Exactly.  I want to make something as easy to follow as HowToFix, but which generates more useful results (and takes a bit more work).02:57
StevenKdholbach: Oh wah, the cliches have to go. :-P02:57
crimsun(zero to hero!)02:58
dholbachStevenK: what do you mean?02:58
=== StevenK ALSA's crimsun.
dholbachok... who wants to help writing down those recipes?02:58
=== dholbach joins persia in the effort
dholbachwho else?02:58
Hobbseepersia: does02:59
crimsunI'll join02:59
StevenKI'll help proof-read, since I suck at writing from scratch.02:59
persiaI'd actually prefer to draft everythnig myself to start (should be ready tomorrow or the next day), and encourages others to edit/polish, if that works.02:59
dholbachpersia: that's fine too - can you mail ubuntu-motu@ about that?02:59
Hobbseesounds sane02:59
=== dholbach hugs persia
dholbachpersia: you ROCK! it's great to have you in the team!02:59
dholbacheverybody hug persia :)03:00
=== Hobbsee hugs persia too
persiaGrrr..  With responsibility comes email.  I *liked* being a contributor.03:00
=== StevenK hugs persia
Hobbseeyou can write filters for the email03:00
persiaHobbsee: That's work.  See above.03:00
dholbachany topic we forgot?03:00
dholbachon the agenda?03:00
Hobbseedholbach: world domination.03:00
dholbachHobbsee: adressed by the other points, anything else?03:00
crimsun(I think that about covers the agendum)03:00
Hobbseei believe we have impending universe iceape now, too03:00
Hobbseewhich willb e fun, bug-wise03:01
FujitsuNot more Mozilla :'(03:01
StevenKOh, twitch.03:01
dholbachok... when will we have our next Universe HUG Day?03:01
StevenKDebian has a trademark war, and we get sucked in too.03:01
crimsunMay 31 0 UTC, 12 UTC.03:01
=== persia suggests weekends: more contributors are available.
dholbachcrimsun: so May 31st?03:01
dholbachI'd really like for us to make an effort to mark bugs as bitesize and offer mentoring03:01
Hobbseethe bitesize seems to work - just they all get done, and there's nothing left03:02
dholbachwe need more tasks mentors can pass on to contributors, especially if it's an easy package update or something03:02
crimsunpersia: this weekend, then?03:02
=== dholbach is offline throughout the weekend
StevenKThis weekend might be too short notice.03:02
persiacrimsun: OK.  I like next better, as there'll be better docs on what people should do.03:02
crimsunnext weekend?03:02
dholbachbut that shouldn't hinder other to join in on the fun03:02
crimsunJune 2?03:02
FujitsuYeah, 1 hour notice isn't very good.03:02
dholbach(next I'll be at linuxtag)03:02
dholbachbut if the WE works best for everybody else, so be it :)03:03
crimsunif you don't mind, then, let's shoot for June 203:03
persiadholbach: It's just that on the weekend, there are more people (not ubuntu-dev) with time to help.03:03
dholbachwho write the announcement?03:03
dholbachpersia: right03:03
dholbachok, I'll write it03:04
Hobbseewho's doing the minutes and such?03:04
dholbachnext motu meeting?03:04
dholbachin two weeks, same time? other time?03:04
persiaJune 15, 0 UTC?03:04
dholbachthat'd be june 8th03:04
StevenKI can't make two weeks.03:04
StevenKThree, I can.03:05
Hobbseethis sort of time is good03:05
StevenKIf it matters.03:05
dholbachthat's 2 in the morning over here03:05
crimsunis 1300 UTC too much a burden on EU and AU?03:05
persiaHobbsee: To be fair to others, we need to adjust times :)03:05
Hobbseei'll be in exam time by then, i guess - but i should be around some03:05
StevenKdholbach: A few hours earlier would work too.03:05
dholbachcrimsun: not on EU03:05
Hobbseepersia: i'm well aware.  i'm australian, and i'm used to all the other meetings being at crap times.03:05
HobbseeStevenK: what's 1300 local?03:06
Hobbseeoh, 11pm.  sounds sane03:06
StevenKOh woops, wrong way03:06
Hobbseesorry, 1300 UTC in local.  was unclear03:06
FujitsuStevenK: We're +10 these days.03:06
StevenKFujitsu: Hobbsee confused me.03:06
StevenKWhich isn't hard at 11pm.03:06
Hobbseepoor StevenK03:06
dholbachok... what do we agree on?03:06
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crimsunJune 15th 1300 UTC?03:07
StevenKJune 15th, 1300UTC sounds great to me.03:07
Hobbseesounds sane, pending exams and such03:07
dholbachwho writes the announce?03:07
=== Hobbsee will
dholbachexcellent, thanks Hobbsee03:07
Hobbseemind you, i said that about kubuntu-devel, and havent yet.03:07
Hobbseei suck.03:07
persiaI think it's unfair to people in NZ, and NA, but am happy myself.03:07
=== dholbach hugs Hobbsee too
crimsunhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMenuHeader updated03:07
ajmitchpersia: that's ok03:08
dholbachrock and roll03:08
Hobbseedoes that mean i'm doing teh meeting minutes as well?03:08
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ajmitchI won't be there03:08
dholbachthanks everybody - this was an awesome meeting03:08
dholbachlots of stuff covered03:08
Hobbseeit was!03:08
Hobbseebetter than the UDS one, even03:08
persiaThere was a UDS MOTU meeting?03:08
dholbachHobbsee: will you CC fridge-devel@?03:08
Hobbseedholbach: yep03:08
Hobbseepersia: yeah, on reviewing03:08
Hobbseeand such03:09
Hobbseeand mentoring03:09
StevenKpersia: In person at UDS.03:09
persiaAh, I remember now.  No links.03:09
Hobbseethere was VOIP03:09
Hobbseethe redneck was on it, iirc03:09
persiaAnd gobby (until it broke)03:09
Hobbseeyeah, true03:09
persiaHobbsee: With full gain for extra breathing sounds :)03:10
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crimsunthanks everyone!03:11
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