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(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) hmm08:45
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) guys?08:45
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) are you pondering this issue of possible high dpi screens and how icon sizes etc relate to this?08:45
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and how big on-screen elements should be?08:46
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) we should work together to make the desktop icon theme standards etc fit our needs on the embedded as well, so we come up with a working plan and then try to collaborate with desktop people08:46
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) hi tigert08:48
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I've noticed it being raised as a problem, yes.08:48
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) hi Mithrandir 08:48
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so is ken your ui guy now?08:48
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) at least artwork guy; unsure if he does/is supposed to do UI too.08:49
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) (that is, to a larger extent than artwork and concepts here will be UI)08:49
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ok, who does ui? we should try to collaborate as much as possible08:49
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I think Ken is the best person to talk to.08:49
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) since he's been doing the mockups and such08:50
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) Mithrandir: http://tigert.1g.fi/kuvat/Misc/16x16.jpeg < this 16x16 icon explains the problem fairly well08:50
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) the black thing is the N800 stylus08:50
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) the tip08:50
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yup08:50
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) you're currently using a pixmap based theme, right? So that needs to change if we want to support different dpis.08:51
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) well08:51
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah08:51
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) or we need to have different versions for different DPIs08:51
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) svg is slower on small devices with limited cpu08:51
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but08:51
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it depends on two things08:51
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) dpi and physical size08:51
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) you can scale icons in svg fairly nicely to wanted size as long as it is bigger than certain size08:52
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah, they can get very muddy if you make them too small08:52
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but its also that if the physical size of icons is very small on screen (even if they are 48x48 for example) it doesnt make sense to put much detail there08:52
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) that shouldn't be a problem on high-dpi screens though?08:52
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) well08:52
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) oh, ok08:52
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its both the pixel resolution 08:52
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ie, can you see the detail08:52
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but also whether you WANT to see it?08:53
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) true08:53
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) because its still darn small08:53
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and if you are walking etc, you dont care much about the miniscule detail08:53
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) indeed08:53
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) you just want to know what the icons are about08:53
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) do you have a suggestion on how to fix that?08:53
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I think just design for physical size08:53
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) we need to forget about pixel sizes with this high dpi (the N800 and 770 are about 230dpi)08:54
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) that should be doable with SVGs, shouldn't it?08:54
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) especially for things like chat etc things that you use with fingers while walking08:54
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it should perhaps, but this is a deeper problem08:55
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah, and on-screen keyboards.08:55
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) "what fits on screen" vs "what can be comfortably used with your big fat fingers" 08:55
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or stylus etc08:55
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) different use cases08:55
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) also if you walk with a device, stylus is harder to use08:56
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or if you have some car navigation thing for example08:56
=== Mithrandir nods.
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) those have big buttons and fonts even though the screen res might be quite big08:56
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but so, we need to collaborate since our needs towards gtk etc are fairly similar08:56
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) is GTK able to give us what we need or do we have to get patches in there?08:57
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ask tko :)08:58
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) he knows more about this08:58
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but its like we who have handheld things etc (ubuntu mobile, openmoko and maemo etc)08:59
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) should perhaps make sure we talk with each other and decide what we want to propose to gtk together08:59
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) instead of doing similar but slightly different things each :)08:59
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah09:00
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) so far, we're basically riding on maemo's back, but I can easily see us want some things that are not needed by maemo itself09:00
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) and we'll at least initially have more high-powered devices so the performance cost of vectors vs pixmaps is easier for us09:00
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it all depends on the batteries you have :)09:02
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or the device power will not be much fun :)09:02
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) true that.09:03
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I'm hoping the tickless kernel and the work which powertop has spurred will make that easier for us, at least.09:03
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Does it make sense to limit the SVG usage to a subset, perhaps SVG Mobile or SVG Basic, and is it harder to author?09:38
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Makes me also wonder whether it would help to cache the SVG rendering at some key sizes, or convert SVG sources to pixmaps of various sizes at build time09:40
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: its harder to author 09:41
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: though, I guess limiting it "softly" in a guideline might be easier09:42
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I dunno if inkscape or such support any svg mobile spec09:42
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and there are no free libs to do that - but I guess as long as the icons are simple, things work ok09:42
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but yeah, bitmaps are always faster09:42
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it just makes a ton of sense to draw icons etc in svg in the first place09:43
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) (tigert: I'm not even sure we have tool to validate whether something is SVG Mobile or Basic, but I expect that limiting to this seemingly easier to render subset might help for the problems you raised previously)09:43
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so you can modify them easier09:43
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Are the current pixmap icon sizes satisfactory for the high DPIs?09:44
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) I think these are 16/22/24/33/36/48/64/72/96/128/192, but I'm not sure09:45
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I need to check09:45
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) of course our stuff is all weird and I want to change this09:45
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) hildon has all strange sizes and names for icons09:45
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Heh :)09:45
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I wish to start using stock icon names at some point, but its not a quick change09:45
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) however thanks to tango's icon-naming-utils this might be doable with a transition time09:46
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: With stock icons, it's hard to avoid the trap of using the icons for what the implementation represents instead of only considering the purpose of the icon09:47
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) what do you mean?09:47
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: I mean relying on the fact that the "soundcard" icon has a card drawn on it and using this as a picture for a MMC card09:48
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) oh right09:49
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yea, we need metaphor list or something09:49
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so we first come up with good metaphors for icons09:49
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: This trap is not a risk when you fork the icons in apps09:49
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) then its easy to theme them differently if needed09:49
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) (But obviously losing theming capabilities)09:49
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) well09:49
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its not a risk either if you try to coordinate the icon use in apps a bit09:50
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Yeah, I agree it's not a risk if you don't make the mistake :)09:50
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) :)09:50
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Plus, icon transitions are a real pain, with no good way to tell what apps use which icons09:50
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) google code search?09:50
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or one can just grep 09:51
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: You can't check for all new upstream releases of all software :-/09:51
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah09:51
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its a bit pile of code yeah09:51
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: If you compare to library dependencies, these are declared and checked at build time quite clearly, and packagers review the diff of configure.ac, but for icons we can't do anything similar09:51
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yea09:52
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Even depending on an icon at the packaging level is quite hard09:52
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) unless we have some unified icon spec that contains metaphors09:52
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and guarantees that certain set of icons exist09:52
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and then you depend on a certain version of that09:52
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but09:52
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Say, if you know the icon is required (or crash!) and it's an icon defined by the standards, then you need to let some alternate icon theme packages be installed to satisfy the dependency09:52
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its also a problem that many apps just need special icons09:53
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and how to make those themeable?09:53
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Perhaps imposing the metaphors is a solution; I fear it introduces other subtle issues, but well...09:53
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah09:53
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: True09:53
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) So I'd say icon packaging is a mess these days :)09:54
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) I tickled the idea with Vincent (Untz) at UDS, and he wasn't too hot in adding infrastructure to track such dependencies, but he also said that incompatible icon name changes were over now09:54
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah09:55
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) He thinks there was a period of trouble which is over; I truly hope so09:55
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) vuntz: Hey Vincent!09:55
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its also a problem at work here - for artists, its good to have just a big pile o' icons09:55
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) to draw09:55
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but for sane development you want to split them09:55
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) somehow09:55
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so that your icon package does not cause all kinds of nightmare dependency problems when you lack an icon09:56
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Yes, some icon themes do not implement the full icon set by themselves and inherit another theme for the rest09:56
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or if you need an icon in app X that is not yet there, but it contains an icon for app Y that you would like to add in already09:56
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but hmm09:56
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) It means you can't even check whether an icon theme package is "compliant" with an icon set at build time09:56
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) maybe inheritance could work09:56
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) have a base stock theme09:56
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but damn09:56
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) no it wont work09:56
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: It's in use already I think09:56
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) dobey had some ideas09:56
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) that apps have their own icon theme folder structure09:57
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and just add that in icon search path09:57
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Check /usr/share/icons/*/index.theme; some have "Inherits=" in [Icon Theme] 09:57
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yea, I know09:57
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) (Oh ok, I thought you knew, but I mismatched the discussion we were having, sorry)09:58
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) no worries :)09:59
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(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xdg/2006-June/006743.html12:50
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: this is how kde does it I think12:50
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(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: I find that "weird"01:56
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) I don't understand how the share/apps/$appname/icons/$themename can work; are such files supposed to be installed by individual themes? Or is this an example of themable applications where you create a per-app theme?01:57
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agoliveiramdz: Do you intend to extend the meeting in June to 16 (saturday)? I just received an email from Dionne Wheeler asking about that and I tought that we would be there until friday only.02:54
(mdz/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: as far as I am concerned, you are free to do as you like after close of business Friday02:55
(mdz/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: what did Dionne ask exactly?02:55
agoliveiramdz: She sent me 2 possible flight intineraries, both returning on 17/06 (sunday), I asked why not on 16 and she told me she tought that our meeting would extend until 16. That's why I asked.02:57
(mdz/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: sounds like there was some confusion; that did not come from me02:58
agoliveiramdz: Probably it was just a mix-up with the dates. I don't have the intention to stay there during the weekend. Well, it's clear to me now. Thanks.02:58
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: yea, its a bit weird03:15
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I guess its so that if apps want to ship theme variants of their icons (say, N800 has four themes in it when you buy it)03:16
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) if we wanted to theme icons, we could then have /usr/share/email/icons/theme1 etc03:16
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ie, look at it from the other perspective03:17
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) if you are making a theme, its hard to know what apps might be installed etc03:17
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but if you are an app maker, to support some theme, you make an icon set and install it to themename/ under your app's own icon dir03:17
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so that would then work03:17
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(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Ok, I begin to understand that application authors might have the knowledge of what themes are installed (for example they know the list of default themes on a system), and would want their application to he integrated in these themes03:30
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) And I also understand the choice of layout now; even if I find it slightly unfortunate :)03:31
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: at least if you are building a product :)03:32
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) then you know what themes there'll be03:32
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) by default03:32
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) The concept of icon theme path begins to make sense now; I even imagine how we could search dirs based on a format string such as "share/$app/icons/%s" % theme03:32
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Right; it still seems to somehow break the concept of themes for me, but I understand the purpose of the approach and the problem it solves03:33
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(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: did you start investigating hildon-desktop?04:01
agoliveiraYes but I had to step back becasue of the i10l dependencies.04:03
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) can you push what you've done into the bzr repo?04:03
agoliveiraMithrandir: I can push the rest as I didn't do anything that works on hildon-desktop yet.04:04
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) ok04:04
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I don't mind if the branches you've pushed don't actually completely work yet.04:04
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) (as long as it says so on TODO)04:04
agoliveiraMithrandir: Can this wait a bit? I completely obliterated my chroot enviromment and I finish to putting back.04:05
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) sure, it's more of a general thing, try to be proactive about pushing changes.04:05
agoliveiraMithrandir: Ah, nice. As soon as I finish it here, I'll organize what I've done and push it.04:06
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) great. :-)04:07
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: yea, we clearly need to discuss and ponder this a bit more04:08
kwwiihi tigert04:16
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) hi ken04:17
kwwiitigert: did you make the whole plankton theme alone? that is some pretty nice stuff from which I have borrowed a thing or two :-)04:17
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(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah04:31
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) well, not the template system04:31
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but I basically drew over the old (ugly) N770 theme template04:31
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I noticed the "drag handle" holes :)04:32
kwwiilol, thanks for those, btw :-)04:36
kwwiiI guess my next mockups are going to be a little more closer to reality04:38
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) kwwii: I realise I haven't told you, but your mockups rock. My only fear is they're giving people too high hopes. :-P04:41
kwwiiMithrandir: I think that if we keep decent goals set for each release we can slowly make our way to something pretty cool - we'll learn along the way as well :-)04:42
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(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah04:52
=== kwwii has never even had a mobile device in his hand before - I am sure I will learn a lot
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) kwwii: get a N80004:54
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it makes you understand a lot of things04:55
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) kwwii: http://tigert.1g.fi/kuvat/Misc/16x16.jpeg04:56
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) that is a 16x16 pixels icon04:56
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) on the 770 screen04:56
kwwiitigert: yeah, I was thinking about trying to get one...just don't want to pay for it personaly :-)04:56
kwwiilol, it is just a spot04:56
kwwiiI was amazed at the resolutions these things have on such tiny screens - finally I can make nice big icons :p04:57
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yea. and we need to forget pixel sizes and start to work on physical dimensions, siince thats what matter for widgets etc on touchscreen05:03
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) the mobility is a new world otherwise too.05:04
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) i just left work and walking to the mall for some weekend shopping =)05:04
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) s/walking/i am walking/05:05
kwwiihehe, enjoy your weekend :-)05:17
kwwiiI will always remember when we were chatting a few years ago and you said "I am outside washing my dog"05:17
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(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) :)05:24
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) that must have been walking, and the T9 text input guessed wrong =)05:24
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) since it was putty on my phone then05:24
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) hrm.. we really need to start poking people to give us decent irc access05:32
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) no kidding.05:36
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or use the n800s05:36
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) :)05:36
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) sucks to copypaste stuff from your laptop to n80005:37
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) clipboard-over-ssh? :-)05:44
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) synergy ;)05:44
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but that returns you to the "no ssh" part :)05:44
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) you don't have ssh access out from work?05:46
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) not officially05:47
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) everything needs to use a proxy05:47
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) http proxy or ssh proxy or socks proxy?05:47
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) http05:48
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) ok, and I guess they're not entirely happy about people doing ssh-over-http or similar crack05:48
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yes. i know how. but it should just work05:49
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) it should, unless it's a policy decision to not allow you to use real internet.05:49
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ie, should not require you to run a sshd at home to get work done ;)05:50
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) exactly05:50
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) the company network works better for keeping trade secrets than for free software devel ;)05:51
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) even the former can be argued of course but lets not go into security as its not the point here05:52
=== Mithrandir nods
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) trying to keep trade secrets in by technical means is.. hard.05:53
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) very05:55
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