[08:45] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) hmm
[08:45] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) guys?
[08:45] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) are you pondering this issue of possible high dpi screens and how icon sizes etc relate to this?
[08:46] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and how big on-screen elements should be?
[08:46] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) we should work together to make the desktop icon theme standards etc fit our needs on the embedded as well, so we come up with a working plan and then try to collaborate with desktop people
[08:48] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) hi tigert
[08:48] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I've noticed it being raised as a problem, yes.
[08:48] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) hi Mithrandir 
[08:48] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so is ken your ui guy now?
[08:49] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) at least artwork guy; unsure if he does/is supposed to do UI too.
[08:49] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) (that is, to a larger extent than artwork and concepts here will be UI)
[08:49] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ok, who does ui? we should try to collaborate as much as possible
[08:49] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I think Ken is the best person to talk to.
[08:50] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) since he's been doing the mockups and such
[08:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) Mithrandir: http://tigert.1g.fi/kuvat/Misc/16x16.jpeg < this 16x16  icon explains the problem fairly well
[08:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) the black thing is the N800 stylus
[08:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) the tip
[08:50] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yup
[08:51] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) you're currently using a pixmap based theme, right?  So that needs to change if we want to support different dpis.
[08:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) well
[08:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
[08:51] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) or we need to have different versions for different DPIs
[08:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) svg is slower on small devices with limited cpu
[08:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but
[08:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it depends on two things
[08:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) dpi and physical size
[08:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) you can scale icons in svg fairly nicely to wanted size as long as it is bigger than certain size
[08:52] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah, they can get very muddy if you make them too small
[08:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but its also that if the physical size of icons is very small on screen (even if they are 48x48 for example) it doesnt make sense to put much detail there
[08:52] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) that shouldn't be a problem on high-dpi screens though?
[08:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) well
[08:52] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) oh, ok
[08:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its both the pixel resolution 
[08:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ie, can you see the detail
[08:53] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but also whether you WANT to see it?
[08:53] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) true
[08:53] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) because its still darn small
[08:53] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and if you are walking etc, you dont care much about the miniscule detail
[08:53] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) indeed
[08:53] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) you just want to know what the icons are about
[08:53] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) do you have a suggestion on how to fix that?
[08:53] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I think just design for physical size
[08:54] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) we need to forget about pixel sizes with this high dpi (the N800 and 770 are about 230dpi)
[08:54] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) that should be doable with SVGs, shouldn't it?
[08:54] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) especially for things like chat etc things that you use with fingers while walking
[08:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it should perhaps, but this is a deeper problem
[08:55] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah, and on-screen keyboards.
[08:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) "what fits on screen" vs "what can be comfortably used with your big fat fingers" 
[08:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or stylus etc
[08:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) different use cases
[08:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) also if you walk with a device, stylus is harder to use
[08:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or if you have some car navigation thing for example
[08:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) those have big buttons and fonts even though the screen res might be quite big
[08:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but so, we need to collaborate since our needs towards gtk etc are fairly similar
[08:57] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) is GTK able to give us what we need or do we have to get patches in there?
[08:58] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ask tko :)
[08:58] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) he knows more about this
[08:59] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but its like we who have handheld things etc (ubuntu mobile, openmoko and maemo etc)
[08:59] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) should perhaps make sure we talk with each other and decide what we want to propose to gtk together
[08:59] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) instead of doing similar but slightly different things each :)
[09:00] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
[09:00] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) so far, we're basically riding on maemo's back, but I can easily see us want some things that are not needed by maemo itself
[09:00] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) and we'll at least initially have more high-powered devices so the performance cost of vectors vs pixmaps is easier for us
[09:02] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it all depends on the batteries you have :)
[09:02] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or the device power will not be much fun :)
[09:03] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) true that.
[09:03] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I'm hoping the tickless kernel and the work which powertop has spurred will make that easier for us, at least.
[09:38] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Does it make sense to limit the SVG usage to a subset, perhaps SVG Mobile or SVG Basic, and is it harder to author?
[09:40] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Makes me also wonder whether it would help to cache the SVG rendering at some key sizes, or convert SVG sources to pixmaps of various sizes at build time
[09:41] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: its harder to author 
[09:42] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: though, I guess limiting it "softly" in a guideline might be easier
[09:42] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I dunno if inkscape or such support any svg mobile spec
[09:42] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and there are no free libs to do that - but I guess as long as the icons are simple, things work ok
[09:42] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but yeah, bitmaps are always faster
[09:43] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it just makes a ton of sense to draw icons etc in svg in the first place
[09:43] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) (tigert: I'm not even sure we have tool to validate whether something is SVG Mobile or Basic, but I expect that limiting to this seemingly easier to render subset might help for the problems you raised previously)
[09:43] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so you can modify them easier
[09:44] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Are the current pixmap icon sizes satisfactory for the high DPIs?
[09:45] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) I think these are 16/22/24/33/36/48/64/72/96/128/192, but I'm not sure
[09:45] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I need to check
[09:45] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) of course our stuff is all weird and I want to change this
[09:45] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) hildon has all strange sizes and names for icons
[09:45] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Heh :)
[09:45] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I wish to start using stock icon names at some point, but its not a quick change
[09:46] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) however thanks to tango's icon-naming-utils this might be doable with a transition time
[09:47] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: With stock icons, it's hard to avoid the trap of using the icons for what the implementation represents instead of only considering the purpose of the icon
[09:47] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) what do you mean?
[09:48] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: I mean relying on the fact that the "soundcard" icon has a card drawn on it and using this as a picture for a MMC card
[09:49] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) oh right
[09:49] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yea, we need metaphor list or something
[09:49] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so we first come up with good metaphors for icons
[09:49] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: This trap is not a risk when you fork the icons in apps
[09:49] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) then its easy to theme them differently if needed
[09:49] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) (But obviously losing theming capabilities)
[09:49] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) well
[09:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its not a risk either if you try to coordinate the icon use in apps a bit
[09:50] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Yeah, I agree it's not a risk if you don't make the mistake :)
[09:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) :)
[09:50] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Plus, icon transitions are a real pain, with no good way to tell what apps use which icons
[09:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) google code search?
[09:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or one can just grep 
[09:51] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: You can't check for all new upstream releases of all software :-/
[09:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
[09:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its a bit pile of code yeah
[09:51] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: If you compare to library dependencies, these are declared and checked at build time quite clearly, and packagers review the diff of configure.ac, but for icons we can't do anything similar
[09:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yea
[09:52] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Even depending on an icon at the packaging level is quite hard
[09:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) unless we have some unified icon spec that contains metaphors
[09:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and guarantees that certain set of icons exist
[09:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and then you depend on a certain version of that
[09:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but
[09:52] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Say, if you know the icon is required (or crash!) and it's an icon defined by the standards, then you need to let some alternate icon theme packages be installed to satisfy the dependency
[09:53] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its also a problem that many apps just need special icons
[09:53] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and how to make those themeable?
[09:53] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Perhaps imposing the metaphors is a solution; I fear it introduces other subtle issues, but well...
[09:53] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
[09:53] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: True
[09:54] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) So I'd say icon packaging is a mess these days :)
[09:54] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) I tickled the idea with Vincent (Untz) at UDS, and he wasn't too hot in adding infrastructure to track such dependencies, but he also said that incompatible icon name changes were over now
[09:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
[09:55] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) He thinks there was a period of trouble which is over; I truly hope so
[09:55] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) vuntz: Hey Vincent!
[09:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its also a problem at work here - for artists, its good to have just a big pile o' icons
[09:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) to draw
[09:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but for sane development you want to split them
[09:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) somehow
[09:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so that your icon package does not cause all kinds of nightmare dependency problems when you lack an icon
[09:56] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Yes, some icon themes do not implement the full icon set by themselves and inherit another theme for the rest
[09:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or if you need an icon in app X that is not yet there, but it contains an icon for app Y that you would like to add in already
[09:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but hmm
[09:56] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) It means you can't even check whether an icon theme package is "compliant" with an icon set at build time
[09:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) maybe inheritance could work
[09:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) have a base stock theme
[09:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but damn
[09:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) no it wont work
[09:56] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: It's in use already I think
[09:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) dobey had some ideas
[09:57] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) that apps have their own icon theme folder structure
[09:57] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and just add that in icon search path
[09:57] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Check /usr/share/icons/*/index.theme; some have "Inherits=" in [Icon Theme] 
[09:57] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yea, I know
[09:58] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) (Oh ok, I thought you knew, but I mismatched the discussion we were having, sorry)
[09:59] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) no worries :)
[12:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xdg/2006-June/006743.html
[12:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: this is how kde does it I think
[01:56] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: I find that "weird"
[01:57] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) I don't understand how the share/apps/$appname/icons/$themename can work; are such files supposed to be installed by individual themes?  Or is this an example of themable applications where you create a per-app theme?
[02:54] <agoliveira> mdz: Do you intend to extend the meeting in June to 16 (saturday)? I just received an email from Dionne Wheeler asking about that and I tought that we would be there until friday only.
[02:55] (mdz/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: as far as I am concerned, you are free to do as you like after close of business Friday
[02:55] (mdz/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: what did Dionne ask exactly?
[02:57] <agoliveira> mdz: She sent me 2 possible flight intineraries, both returning on 17/06 (sunday), I asked why not on 16 and she told me she tought that our meeting would extend until 16. That's why I asked.
[02:58] (mdz/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: sounds like there was some confusion; that did not come from me
[02:58] <agoliveira> mdz: Probably it was just a mix-up with the dates. I don't have the intention to stay there during the weekend. Well, it's clear to me now. Thanks.
[03:15] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: yea, its a bit weird
[03:16] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I guess its so that if apps want to ship theme variants of their icons (say, N800 has four themes in it when you buy it)
[03:16] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) if we wanted to theme icons, we could then have /usr/share/email/icons/theme1 etc
[03:17] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ie, look at it from the other perspective
[03:17] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) if you are making a theme, its hard to know what apps might be installed etc
[03:17] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but if you are an app maker, to support some theme, you make an icon set and install it to themename/ under your app's own icon dir
[03:17] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so that would then work
[03:30] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Ok, I begin to understand that application authors might have the knowledge of what themes are installed (for example they know the list of default themes on a system), and would want their application to he integrated in these themes
[03:31] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) And I also understand the choice of layout now; even if I find it slightly unfortunate :)
[03:32] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: at least if you are building a product :)
[03:32] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) then you know what themes there'll be
[03:32] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) by default
[03:32] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) The concept of icon theme path begins to make sense now; I even imagine how we could search dirs based on a format string such as "share/$app/icons/%s" % theme
[03:33] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Right; it still seems to somehow break the concept of themes for me, but I understand the purpose of the approach and the problem it solves
[04:01] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: did you start investigating hildon-desktop?
[04:03] <agoliveira> Yes but I had to step back becasue of the i10l dependencies.
[04:03] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) can you push what you've done into the bzr repo?
[04:04] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: I can push the rest as I didn't do anything that works on hildon-desktop yet.
[04:04] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) ok
[04:04] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I don't mind if the branches you've pushed don't actually completely work yet.
[04:04] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) (as long as it says so on TODO)
[04:05] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Can this wait a bit? I completely obliterated my chroot enviromment and I finish to putting back.
[04:05] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) sure, it's more of a general thing, try to be proactive about pushing changes.
[04:06] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Ah, nice. As soon as I finish it here, I'll organize what I've done and push it.
[04:07] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) great. :-)
[04:08] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: yea, we clearly need to discuss and ponder this a bit more
[04:16] <kwwii> hi tigert
[04:17] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) hi ken
[04:17] <kwwii> tigert: did you make the whole plankton theme alone? that is some pretty nice stuff from which I have borrowed a thing or two :-)
[04:31] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
[04:31] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) well, not the template system
[04:31] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but I basically drew over the old (ugly) N770 theme template
[04:32] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I noticed the "drag handle" holes :)
[04:36] <kwwii> lol, thanks for those, btw :-)
[04:38] <kwwii> I guess my next mockups are going to be a little more closer to reality
[04:41] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) kwwii: I realise I haven't told you, but your mockups rock.  My only fear is they're giving people too high hopes. :-P
[04:42] <kwwii> Mithrandir: I think that if we keep decent goals set for each release we can slowly make our way to something pretty cool - we'll learn along the way as well :-)
[04:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
[04:54] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) kwwii: get a N800
[04:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it makes you understand a lot of things
[04:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) kwwii: http://tigert.1g.fi/kuvat/Misc/16x16.jpeg
[04:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) that is a 16x16 pixels icon
[04:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) on the 770 screen
[04:56] <kwwii> tigert: yeah, I was thinking about trying to get one...just don't want to pay for it personaly :-)
[04:56] <kwwii> lol, it is just a spot
[04:57] <kwwii> I was amazed at the resolutions these things have on such tiny screens - finally I can make nice big icons :p
[05:03] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yea. and we need to forget pixel sizes and start to work on physical dimensions, siince thats what matter for widgets etc on touchscreen
[05:04] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) the mobility is a new world otherwise too.
[05:04] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) i just left work and walking to the mall for some weekend shopping =)
[05:05] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) s/walking/i am walking/
[05:17] <kwwii> hehe, enjoy your weekend :-)
[05:17] <kwwii> I will always remember when we were chatting a few years ago and you said "I am outside washing my dog"
[05:24] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) :)
[05:24] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) that must have been walking, and the T9 text input guessed wrong =)
[05:24] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) since it was putty on my phone then
[05:32] (tko/#ubuntu-mobile) hrm.. we really need to start poking people to give us decent irc access
[05:36] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) no kidding.
[05:36] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or use the n800s
[05:36] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) :)
[05:37] (tko/#ubuntu-mobile) sucks to copypaste stuff from your laptop to n800
[05:44] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) clipboard-over-ssh? :-)
[05:44] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) synergy ;)
[05:44] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but that returns you to the "no ssh" part :)
[05:46] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) you don't have ssh access out from work?
[05:47] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) not officially
[05:47] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) everything needs to use a proxy
[05:47] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) http proxy or ssh proxy or socks proxy?
[05:48] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) http
[05:48] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) ok, and I guess they're not entirely happy about people doing ssh-over-http or similar crack
[05:49] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yes. i know how. but it should just work
[05:49] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) it should, unless it's a policy decision to not allow you to use real internet.
[05:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ie, should not require you to run a sshd at home to get work done ;)
[05:50] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) exactly
[05:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) the company network  works better for keeping trade secrets than for free software devel ;)
[05:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) even the former can be argued of course but lets not go into security as its not the point here
[05:53] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) trying to keep trade secrets in by technical means is.. hard.
[05:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) very