[12:15] <Uzuul> hello
[12:15] <Uzuul> how can I request an official ubuntu mailing list (for the Ubuntu Media Center project)?
[12:20] <Burgundavia> Uzuul: via rt
[12:21] <Uzuul> Burgundavia: rt?
[12:21] <Burgundavia> rt@admin.canonica.com
[12:21] <Burgundavia> canonical.com, rather
[12:22] <Uzuul> Burgundavia: thanks a lot ^_^
[02:30] <noria> what happened with "alsaconf" from debian?
[02:43] <crimsun> noria: stopped shipping it. See the alsa-driver changelog for the rationale.
[02:44] <Hobbsee> morning all
[02:46] <noria> okay, will do
[03:34] <lifeless> moin
[03:35] <Hobbsee> hey lifeless!
[03:41] <lifeless> Hobbsee: heya. I'm *nearly* home :)
[03:41] <lifeless> Hobbsee: just got on 18 hour leg to go :)
[03:44] <lifeless> ok, plane time. tchau
[03:53] <Hobbsee> lifeless: ouch!  have fun :)
[04:25] <Hobbsee> oo.o is dead :(
[04:28] <Pumpernickel> o.o
[04:28] <Toxicity999> Hmm?
[04:29] <Hobbsee> ah.  nope, i'ts only sorta dead - dies after trying to do a data recovery
[04:30] <Hobbsee> "this page uses frames, but your browser doesnt support them yet"
[04:30] <Hobbsee> oookay then!
[05:08] <mpt> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22this%20page%20uses%20frames%20but%20your%20browser%20doesn't%20support%20them%22
[05:10] <Hobbsee> mpt: ?
[05:10] <Hobbsee> mpt: i know what hte message means for a browser - but to get that in openoffice writer, for a .doc?
[05:12] <mpt> huh, that's interesting
[05:13] <mpt> Hobbsee, Word 2000 lets you edit Web pages that use frames
[05:13] <mpt> Which, iirc, also means that it lets you use frames even for documents that never end up as Web pages
[05:14] <mpt> I assume Word XP and Word 2007 do the same
[05:14] <mpt> So either Word, or a Web page editor the document was in before Word, may have inserted that boilerplate in the <noframes> element
[05:15] <mpt> and then someone using Word saved it as a Word document rather than as a Web page.
[05:17] <mpt> And then OpenOffice.org didn't see the frames for whatever reason (perhaps it doesn't support them? perhaps the frame contents got corrupted?), and ended up showing just the <noframes> contents.
[05:17] <Hobbsee> mpt: wonderful...
[05:18] <Hobbsee> crazy word...
[09:03] <Lure> can somebody give-back kdegraphics to pick up right depends on new poppler?
[10:15] <Hobbsee> evening all
[10:41] <pygi> hi Hobbsee 
[10:43] <Hobbsee> :)
[10:43] <pygi> how are you?
[10:44] <Hobbsee> good - home from work, finally
[10:44] <pygi> Hobbsee, nice ^^
[11:17] <noria> does any of you come to LinuxTag in germany?
[11:23] <\sh> noria, yes
[11:24] <noria> will there be some event about this new ubuntu certification thingie?
[11:24] <\sh> noria, you mean LPI things? yeah, LPI Germany will have some courses ready...
[11:25] <noria> LPI is distribution independent. i was reading on a blog that Ubuntu makes their own. or was that a myth?
[11:26] <\sh> noria, LPI has created, together with the ubuntu crew, a cert which needs LPIC-1 and is named imho lpi 199
[11:26] <\sh> noria, LPIC-1/-2/-3 is distribution independent yes, but they work together with other distros to do some distro specific certs
[11:27] <noria> ah, thats interesting
[11:28] <\sh> noria, you can read about it on lpi.org website...or just come around to the LPI booth, hopefully you will meet me, or a friend of mine, Matthias Alberts, who can give you more infos 
[11:28] <noria> yeah, that would be cool
[11:29] <noria> our beloved "Agentur fr Arbeit" does not care about such certifications yet, but i thought its worth the investment if you are looking for jobs that you can do from home
[11:29] <\sh> noria, or come around the kubuntu/ubuntu booth at linuxtag, meet the other community members (including me) and we can go together to the LPI booth, so you don't have to wait for your infos :)
[11:30] <\sh> noria, LPI certs are nothing for the "Agentur fuer Arbeit" they are working together with other companies, but I never saw anything linux specific
[11:31] <noria> that would be fun, cause i never met community members so far :o)
[11:31] <\sh> noria, send me an email (sh @ sourcecode . de) so I can put you on my schedule
[11:31] <noria> \sh, yeah and that is a shame. because they sponsor the MCSE training to people who hardly know anything about computers
[11:31] <\sh> real name would be cool, indeed
[11:32] <\sh> noria, that's why most of those mcses are not getting a job
[11:33] <noria> they better used that money on linux training so that people can support the community at least if they find no job :P
[11:33] <\sh> (in companies who need real windows cracks sometimes...right now, even linux people do know more about windows server, then those mces, seeing it every day in our company)
[11:33] <\sh> noria, well, we need people...linux cracks especially...jobs.combots.com 
[11:35] <noria> i am not "amoung the best" yet. but i work on that :P
[11:35] <\sh> noria, starting as a junior, working up to a senior...is this ok? 
[11:35] <\sh> noria, and you will work with some of the best sysadmins  
[11:36] <noria> that sounds too good to be real :P
[11:36] <\sh> noria, and you will work with some ubuntu/debian/sles developer as well :) 
[11:36] <noria> okay, and how much do i have to pay? :P
[11:37] <noria> without kidding, i think i dont play in such a high league
[11:37] <noria> i am human!
[11:38] <\sh> noria, hehe...you will get payed...and no, we are not uber-humans...still plain normal people, with a lot of experience...and we need new blood...
[11:39] <noria> \sh, sounds fantastic to be a long term coal for me
[11:40] <\sh> noria, just send me your profile and your cv with your email :) really, don't be scary :)
[11:40] <noria> because a linux related job has one big advantage of any other jobs - its not real work if you have strong believes in what you do
[11:41] <pradalvr> Hi i am getting an error when i try and save security file into ect directory
[11:41] <\sh> noria, sysadmin work is a hard job, you will have to work more then 40 hours per week, even when you are good :)
[11:42] <\sh> pradalvr, what error? hopefully you mean /etc/
[11:42] <pradalvr> yeah! thats it
[11:42] <pradalvr> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AutomaticSecurityUpdates
[11:43] <pradalvr> I have dyslexia 
[11:44] <pradalvr> use Kate. Also available via the command line are various other text editors that you can use. The file you create, name it apt-security-updates and place it in the directory /etc/cron.weekly/.
[11:44] <pradalvr> thats when i get the error 
[11:45] <pradalvr>  "Could not save the file"
[11:48] <mdke_> pradalvr: please ask for support in the #ubuntu channel. Having said that, you'll need administrative privileges to save a file into /etc
[11:48] <pradalvr> I do
[11:49] <pradalvr> its my machine
[11:49] <Hobbsee> hiya mdke_ 
[11:50] <mdke_> hi Hobbsee 
[11:50] <Hobbsee> :)
[11:50] <Hobbsee> pradalvr: did you use sudo, though?
[11:50] <Hobbsee> or gksu?
[11:50] <pradalvr> but it never allowed me to use a password.....yes and file not found
[12:20] <webwolf_27> I was planning on writing a graphical dsl-setup program. Would there be any objections to writing this with wxwidgets, or would gtk be better? 
[12:22] <webwolf_27> the main interest behind it would be to make setting up german t-online and 1und1 dsl connection easier for n00bies
[12:23] <Hobbsee> assuming wxwidgets is in main, it shouldnt matter, if it ever becomes default
[12:24] <persia> webwolf_27: Unless you really need to port to windows and mac, and want native widgets, I'd recommend GTK+.
[12:24] <webwolf_27> I would at least like to see it on the main cd as, it's pointless to have to download such a program out of the net
[12:25] <webwolf_27> persia, that would also be a good incentive for me to finally learn the gtk+ livs
[12:25] <webwolf_27> livs=libs
[12:26] <webwolf_27> Like I said. My main interset is german convertee's as here DSL is the standard. I'm not sure whats used primarly in other countries
[12:35] <pradalvr> One thing that i have learned while trying to understand computers, no one is willing to help anyone that is new...Sadly i it make me feel like i am in middle school all over again...I am sure this has turned several people off with learning..By the way, I was reading and trying to understand how to gain permission on saving files, I never figured that out. I asked the ubuntu help channel...
[12:35] <pradalvr> ...and was unsuccessful..Trying to ask anyone for help leaves a bad taste in my mouth EVERY TIME..goodbye 
[12:36] <Hobbsee> pradalvr: please look at the day
[12:36] <noria> pradalvr, hold on
[12:36] <Hobbsee> pradalvr: please note that most people arent here on a sunday
[12:37] <pradalvr> well i was for hours 
[12:37] <noria> pradalvr, you got the wrong impression. that has nothing to do with your person or the fact that you are new - at least not on channels that are related to Ubuntu
[12:37] <Hobbsee> webwolf_27: sounds interesting.  i'm not the one who makes those decisions though
[12:37] <Hobbsee> #ubuntu is busy -people often dont get an answer, because it's so huge
[12:38] <Hobbsee> pradalvr: it is still a sunday.  yesterday was a saturday.  the distro team doesnt wrok weekends, unless they have a specific reason to.
[12:38] <StevenK> They don't work, either.
[12:38] <noria> heh
[12:39] <noria> pradalvr, sometimes it is easier to find solutions to problems on web forums or mailing lists, because that is easier for people who are willing to help
[12:40] <noria> pradalvr, if you want to, then you can private message me your problem and i try to help
[12:41] <noria> the people here on this channel focus on development related topics
[12:42] <pradalvr> I am a 36 year old female that thinks most people in IRC acts like young teenagers...Just not appealing for someone trying to honestly learn...People in here hide behind their computers using it as an excuse to be VERY RUDE...Thank you noria but i am very tired, it is 5.42 am here. I need sleep
[12:43] <noria> pradalvr, lol. i understand your feelings very well. but it does not fit to the people in the Ubuntu community. most of them are very decent people
[12:43] <pradalvr> thank you for the invitation to help 
[12:43] <noria> pradalvr, you can take some rest and contact me after sleep if you want to
[12:44] <Hobbsee> pradalvr: oh, you've reminded me of who you are now.
[12:44] <pradalvr> maybe not in your opinion...but in my experience, its been a ridiculous nightmare
[12:45] <pradalvr> I really dont care if you remember me hobbsee
[12:45] <noria> pradalvr, lets talk after you got some sleep :)
[12:45] <Hobbsee> you played the "no one's answering me, because i'm female, and the ops all hate me, because i'm female, and they have a horrible all male club"
[12:45] <Hobbsee> card
[12:45] <pradalvr> then you should know how long i have been asking
[12:46] <pradalvr> how long ago hobbsee
[12:46] <Hobbsee> dont remember.  there are lots of people i've helped since then, and talked to.
[12:46] <pradalvr> you certainly remember who i was
[12:46] <pradalvr> take a shot
[12:47] <Hobbsee> it was before UDS
[12:47] <Hobbsee> i couldnt take a more accurate shot than that.
[12:47] <pradalvr> awhile back 
[12:47] <Hobbsee> still, i'm not sure what your actual quesiton was either.
[12:48] <Hobbsee> so maybe if you enlighten us on that...it might actually help.
[12:48] <pradalvr> so noria, that goes to show you how long i have been trying..not being rude, just proving a point
[12:48] <pradalvr> I told you
[12:49] <pradalvr> i can't save a file so that i can use sudo
[12:49] <noria> pradalvr, i understand your hard feelings. i offered you alternatives. now its on you to take some sleep and try again :)
[12:49] <pradalvr> i don't have the permission
[12:50] <Hobbsee> use chown
[12:50] <Hobbsee> man chown will tell you more
[12:50] <pradalvr> yes you are right...my back is killing me and i am starting to get massive cellulite like never b4
[12:51] <Hobbsee> ie, sudo chown /foo/bar/directory or whatever.  use -R for recursive
[12:52] <pradalvr> chown: missing operand after `/foo/bar/directory'
[12:52] <pradalvr> Try `chown --help' for more information.
[12:52] <Hobbsee> oh, sorry.  sudo chown youruser.yourgroup /foo/bar/directory
[12:52] <Hobbsee> which chown --help, or man chown will tell you
[12:52] <Hobbsee> i'm not sure you actually want your security files to be written to by a regular user anyway.
[12:52] <ompaul> Hobbsee, pradalvr  user:user 
[12:53] <Hobbsee> oh yes, : sorry
[12:54] <StevenK> . will work, but is discourged because user names can contain a '.'
[12:54] <Hobbsee> StevenK: ahhh....thanks.
[12:54] <Hobbsee> pradalvr: however, this is an #ubuntu type question, which they should have answered you.  assuming it didnt get lost in the general flood of questions, which isnt personal.
[12:54] <Hobbsee> unclear questions will also tend to get ignored
[12:55] <Hobbsee> you may wish to see http://www.sabi.co.uk/Notes/linuxHelpAsk.html and try to use things in there to get more sucess
[12:56] <Hobbsee> pradalvr: you may also wish to check out ubuntuforums.org, which has a search function, and lots of people looking to help out.
[12:56] <Hobbsee> which is slower than irc
[12:56] <ompaul> pradalvr, the reason your question did not get answered in #ubuntu is that it is not obvious what you are trying to do, and therefore people don't want to give wrong answers, however from watching here pradalvr, I think you are using the wrong tools for a job, or trying to do something you should not, so I would advise against it, and just get on with using the operating system and not trying to alter the default install it is rathe
[12:56] <ompaul> r secure out of the box, if you need something special then I strongly suggest and advise training
[12:58] <pradalvr> thank noria...I tried responding to your private message ....can forgot to sign in......but yes advice taken...thank you again Noria
[12:58] <pradalvr> bye
[12:58] <noria> pradalvr, oh. i am sorry about that. i ...
[12:59] <noria> thats the spam protection of freenode i guess
[12:59] <mc44> Hobbsee: another grateful customer :P
[12:59] <Hobbsee> mc44: known troll, more like it.
[01:00] <Hobbsee> what's the point in telling someone something, if they dont even listen?
[01:01] <ompaul> mc44, how can you "not be able to write" to something that you should be able to write to? 
[01:01] <Hobbsee> well, not quite a troll - just not a person really wanting to be helped, it seems.
[01:04] <persia> Hobbsee: That's a great link on asking for help.  Do we have anything similar and specific to #ubuntu?
[01:04] <Hobbsee> persia: nope
[01:05] <Hobbsee> persia: it's in my quit message - people sometimes read it
[01:05] <Hobbsee> persia: actually, we may do.  in the FAQ or guidelines, which of course, no one reads.
[01:05] <persia> Hobbsee: :)
[01:06] <persia> Hobbsee: Right.  As with everything else, I just think there should be well-known, Ubuntu-specific URLs for pasting.  Oh well.
[01:07] <Hobbsee> of course
[01:07] <Hobbsee> {{documents appear in the wiki}}
[01:08] <bhale> http://pastebin.ubuntu-nl.org/
[01:08] <bhale> bookmark it.
[01:09] <persia> bhale: It doesn't work from this IP :(
[01:09] <Hobbsee> bhale: heh, that doesnt change it to being just for #ubuntu though
[01:10] <bhale> i dont see the point in that
[01:12] <persia> bhale: We have lots of channels.  Suggesting which channels people should use would be good.  Also, there may be specific guidelines that apply to Ubuntu that could be listed.  Lastly, Ubuntu branding of documentation makes Ubuntu users feel comfortable.
[01:12] <Hobbsee> however the generic thing also makes users realise that this is a generic guide for tech help anywhere.
[01:14] <persia> Hobbsee: True.
[01:14] <Hobbsee> maybe i'm just jaded her.
[01:14] <Hobbsee> *here
[01:15] <bhale> im jaded for sure.
[01:15] <Hobbsee> but i'm very much a person believing about the "if you give a man a fish, he'll eat for the day, but if you give a man education on how to fish, he'll eat for a lifetime"
[01:15] <ompaul> persia, we do in #ubuntu say things like: !es for spanish and if someone says compiz/beryl  we say #ubuntu-effects
[01:15] <Hobbsee> or whatever the quote is
[01:15] <Hobbsee> i cant see how you cope in computers, etc, and life, otehrwise.
[01:16] <ompaul> Hobbsee, it is 99.9% right so I would not worry about the origin of the quote
[01:16] <Hobbsee> :)
[01:16] <persia> I have such an extremely low opinion of users that I generally refuse to interact with them in exchange for remuneration.  On the other hand, I think creating documentation that panders to the appropriately can reduce the chance they every try to reach me.
[01:16] <Hobbsee> persia: haha. this is true ;)
[01:16] <StevenK> Hobbsee: "If you build a man a fire, he will be warm for a night. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."
[01:16] <Hobbsee> still, if they're not reading the documentation, is there any point in adding to it?
[01:17] <persia> ompaul: That's great, but it means that someone has to do that for each inappropriate use.  If the /topic included a "Guide to asking for help on #ubuntu", maybe the load would be reduced.
[01:17] <persia> StevenK: :)
[01:18] <bhale> persia: the topic of this very channel is oft ignored.
[01:18] <persia> bhale: Yes.  The topic of every channel is oft ignored, but if the load is reduced by only 20%, it's better for everyone.
[01:18] <ompaul> persia, na, people don't do topic :)
[01:19] <Hobbsee> actually, it' snot already on there
[01:19] <ompaul> persia, I think the hit rate is more like 1% :-)
[01:19] <Hobbsee> ompaul: please add the howto ask questoins to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
[01:19] <ompaul> and that is a big stretch
[01:20] <Hobbsee> which is listed in the topic, so you can point people to them.
[01:20] <ompaul> not a bad idea
[01:20] <persia> ompaul: You'd be surprised.  I've seen a lot of people using the docs I put in the wiki, even though they're just regurgitations of other publically available information.
[01:21] <ompaul> persia, the wiki works, but topics welll
[01:23] <Hobbsee> ompaul: then you point people to the topic, and dont otherwise answer :P
[01:23] <ompaul> Hobbsee, fail
[01:24] <ompaul> it is a tad trite for the verbosity of irc 
[01:26] <Hobbsee> ompaul: btw, it's suggested that #ubuntu be a lobby, and we have #ubuntu-effects, #ubuntu-hardware, #ubuntu-beginner, multimedia, gnome, kde, programming, games, networking, etc.
[01:26] <Hobbsee> ompaul: i dont think that's such a bad idea...
[01:27] <ompaul> Hobbsee, that would fail
[01:27] <Hobbsee> even if people cross-post, it should still be more bearable.
[01:27] <Hobbsee> everything fails - including what's there now.
[01:27] <ompaul> Hobbsee, it is still working, in comparison with other places
[01:28] <Hobbsee> ompaul: just people arent getting answered
[01:28] <Hobbsee> some even with decent questions
[01:28] <ompaul> Hobbsee, we should get ljl to do some stats on that
[01:29] <Hobbsee> indeed
[01:31] <Hobbsee> !weekend | ompaul 
[01:31] <ubotu> ompaul: It's a weekend.  Often on weekends, the paid developers, and a lot of the community, may not be around to answer your question.  Please be patient, wait longer than you normally would, or try again during the working week.
[01:31] <Hobbsee> !night | ompaul 
[01:31] <ubotu> ompaul: It's the middle of the night in the US and the UK.  This means that a lot of people are likely asleep, and so therefore there are less potential people who can answer your question.  Please be patient, and consider asking at a time when more people will be awake.  This is particularly true in the quieter channels.
[01:31] <Hobbsee> ompaul: i'm sick of typing them.
[01:31] <Hobbsee> :)
[01:31] <ompaul> Hobbsee, ^^
[01:31] <Hobbsee> ah
[01:32] <Hobbsee> great
[01:32] <Hobbsee> !no night is <reply> It's the middle of the night in the US and Europe.  This means that a lot of people are likely asleep, and so therefore there are less potential people who can answer your question.  Please be patient, and consider asking at a time when more people will be awake.  This is particularly true in the quieter channels.
[01:32] <ubotu> I'll remember that Hobbsee
[01:33] <Hobbsee> persia: thanks
[01:33] <Hobbsee> !no night is <reply> It's the middle of the night in the US and Europe.  This means that a lot of people are likely asleep, therefore there are less potential people who can answer your question.  Please be patient, and consider asking at a time when more people will be awake.  This is particularly true in the quieter channels.
[01:33] <ubotu> I'll remember that Hobbsee
[01:34] <persia> Hobbsee: Sorry.  I'm thinking slow today.  How about "The Americas and Europe"?
[01:35] <Hobbsee> !no night is <reply> It's the middle of the night in the US and Europe, and surrounds.  This means that a lot of people are likely asleep, therefore there are less potential people who can answer your question.  Please be patient, and consider asking at a time when more people will be awake.  This is particularly true in the quieter channels.
[01:35] <ubotu> I'll remember that Hobbsee
[01:35] <Hobbsee> there.
[01:35] <persia> That sounds great.  Thanks.
[01:36] <ompaul> Hobbsee, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines have a look at that
[01:37] <ompaul> I added three lines to the tail of the discussion
[01:37] <Hobbsee> ompaul: s/nearly a/over a/
[01:38] <Hobbsee> ompaul: move it to second or third point, please
[01:38] <Hobbsee> we want that to be read
[01:38] <ompaul> Hobbsee, sorry I have a disconnect here
[01:38] <ompaul> okay so move it back up a bit, but what is the search and replace for?
[01:39] <Hobbsee> first paragraph
[01:39] <Hobbsee> The #ubuntu IRC channel is growing very quickly, with nearly a thousand people in the channel all the time. Keeping a pleasant atmosphere in #ubuntu has been the main
[01:40] <Hobbsee> wow, we're bigger than the two #debian's combined.
[01:40] <ompaul>  okay I'll commit it
[01:40] <ompaul> done 
[01:40] <ogra-classmate> Hobbsee: size doesnt matter :P
[01:40] <Hobbsee> ogra-classmate: does sometimes
[01:41] <Hobbsee> ogra-classmate: # of people asking questions at once is usually proportional to size
[01:41] <ogra-classmate> indeed, i wasnt serious
[01:41] <Hobbsee> what's your solutoin?
[01:43] <ogra-classmate> faster supporters ? subchannels ? no idea
[01:43] <ompaul> subchannels don't work because helpers will not work in 5 channels at once
[01:44] <Hobbsee> but the questiosn will flow slower, so there's more chance for backscroll
[01:44] <Hobbsee> and they're only helping out a small subsection of the people anyway
[01:44] <Hobbsee> if anything, it just becomes like #kubuntu - sometimes good - sometimes impossible to ge ta response
[01:44] <ompaul> faster supporters well, the ability of helpers not to burn out is important, nay vital to the success of a channel, so having enough helpers seems to be the issue
[01:44] <Hobbsee> i'm not sure if that's better or wrose than what we have now, tbh
[01:45] <ompaul> persia, actually it is not, your right ;-)
[01:45] <Hobbsee> not really, but no one else is talking, and you guys may have ideas that we can use.
[01:45] <Hobbsee> which is why i havent suggested movign it
[01:45] <persia> I think subchannels would help.  As long as there are enough questions to feed the egos of the helpers in each channel, they will specialise, which gets better helpers, and better answers.
[01:46] <Hobbsee> persia: the fact is, people are startging to come here more for answers, as they're nto getting them in #ubuntu
[01:46] <Hobbsee> which is problematic for here
[01:46] <Hobbsee> (and it's nice to have one place where there isnt user support going on!)
[01:46] <persia> Hobbsee: That's what I'm seeing too, which is why I am suddenly interested in #ubuntu (remember that bit about me not liking users)
[01:46] <Hobbsee> hehe
[01:46] <Hobbsee> yeah
[01:46] <Hobbsee> exactly
[01:48] <ompaul> we are lowering the barrier to entry so the questions and managment of same has to change over time, for instance, a couple of years ago there was a lot of "sudo education" going on, once that was removed as a topic for debate things moved along nicely
[01:51] <persia> ompaul: Is there any organisation of the helpers?
[01:51] <ompaul> persia, no, they like to be thought of as free spirits, until they become of #ubuntu-ops at which time they become more serious :-) 
[01:52] <ompaul> woops
[01:52] <ompaul> persia, until they become aware of #ubuntu-ops at which time they become more serious :-) 
[01:53] <ompaul> if they are seen as good they get told about #ubuntu-offtopic as a place to step away from the hard work, most people who dive into it help until burnout which does them no good, but trying to get someone to step back from the edge and take a moment out so that you can make it work better is hard
[01:54] <persia> Really?  I'm surprised.  I would think that they would be incented by, say, a LP group (if you can demonstrate that you helped N people well, you can apply for membership, etc.), and having a short page that provided guidelines on what to do, how to do it, and what the criteria for the pony was might help.  But then again, I'm a fan of carrots.
[01:55] <ompaul> Fujitsu, you were not the first and will not become the last
[01:55] <ompaul> persia, irc is a lot more about the ability to do a little when you can, it is just that #ubuntu has become huge it is hard for people with good skills to keep it up
[01:56] <persia> Fujitsu: If there was a team (with a (low) barrier to entry), would you have made an effort to join the team, perhaps especially if team membership contributed towards ubuntu membership criteria?
[01:56] <ompaul> persia, but if we all do 15 mins a day then the job becomes a lot lighter, however the downside is always the "T" word, trolls who will go out of their way to take your time on other people.
[01:57] <persia> ompaul: I totally understand about that.  I'm just a wonk, and generally believe that a good process, with good carrots encourages people to do what I want :)
[01:57] <Fujitsu> persia: I'm really not sure... I'd always been wanting to be a dev, and got fed up with trollishness, and the sheer number of questions in #ubuntu.
[01:58] <ompaul> persia, ehh process rocks, carrots come after people even realise there is a process, and the carrot is knowing someone is now able to use their systm
[01:58] <persia> Fujitsu: Hrm.  Perhaps it's the development bent, but that probably means I'm wrong, when combined with ompaul's previous statements.
[01:59] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: you forgot to mention the same questions, continually.
[01:59] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: I guess, but that sort of comes under trolling at times.
[01:59] <ompaul> persia, we often times see people who want to do more, and start with a visit to -bugs for triage and then on to motu 
[01:59] <Hobbsee> this is true
[02:00] <Hobbsee> i meant from different people, though
[02:00] <Fujitsu> Oh, right.
[02:00] <Fujitsu> Yes.
[02:01] <noria> ompaul, one thought regarding that, please?
[02:01] <Hobbsee> ompaul: i'm not sure that people with the good skills are inclined to do much with #ubuntu, as it's just so big and crazy
[02:01] <ompaul> noria, would you like me to be more verbose or something?
[02:01] <persia> ompaul: I think that's a good path for advancement, but I suspect there are a lot of people who aren't really developers who would benefit from a support-oriented track as well.  On the other hand, there would need to be a continous path to make that work well.
[02:02] <noria> writing a little application is quite hard. it requires programming skills. reading code of other people is even harder. so directing people who are fascinated about Ubuntu and the community to #ubuntu-bugs might demotivate and frustrate the majority
[02:03] <Fujitsu> Having smaller channels and some standard place for common questions and answers should reduce burnout, and make it all a little more pleasant, IMO
[02:03] <pygi> smaller channels would soon grow if they are useful
[02:03] <pygi> that's what we always get
[02:04] <Hobbsee> people are also asking for help in #ubuntu-bugs now, for #ubuntu related stuff
[02:04] <persia> Channel growth is good.  Community growth is good.
[02:04] <noria> persia, i dont agree
[02:04] <Fujitsu> pygi: Then we split them further? :S
[02:04] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: just the ones from #ubuntu
[02:04] <pygi> Fujitsu, meh, scalability issues :-/
[02:04] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: which isnt split?
[02:05] <noria> community growth is good. channel growth is bad. more people means more specialized places are needed
[02:05] <Hobbsee> pygi: nothing scales well, in irc support, except bot commands.
[02:05] <Hobbsee> which is why we use tehm.
[02:05] <pygi> I know
[02:05] <Fujitsu> #ubuntu is split a bit (-effects, -xgl, etc.), but not enough.
[02:05] <ompaul> the smaller channels thing leaves me cold, unless you can convince me that there are the helpers to make them work, I am in +1 and ubuntu and a few more channels, but my eyes are only focused on this one right now, I will go to a !ops call, or if there is a highlight but you tend to get your attention focused in one place
[02:05] <noria> a lobby where all new people go to, from there the people can be directed to specialized places. and people who need tutoring can be directed to special #classes
[02:06] <noria> so they learn sooner or later what specialized places they need
[02:06] <Hobbsee> ompaul: remember that you're a staffer though, and arent sitting in a support channel
[02:06] <persia> noria: I agree.  Channel growth is good only because it indicates we have more people getting support.  Channels must then be split to ensure that everyone gets the right amount of support.  Huge channels are bad.
[02:06] <ompaul> Hobbsee, I am a staffer sitting in several support channels :)
[02:06] <noria> persia, and exactly that is not the reality
[02:07] <Hobbsee> ompaul: true that.  but you're not sittign in one, trying to answer everything.
[02:07] <Hobbsee> ompaul: whereas our straight support people tend to do that
[02:07] <noria> the big channels have more noise, and more people who look for help have to deal with that noise
[02:07] <Hobbsee> ompaul: tbh, i dont know if there are the helpers to make it work - but i suspect it's worth a try, and recombine them if it doesnt work.
[02:07] <Hobbsee> we're nowhere near a release, so it's not such a bad time to try
[02:07] <noria> not to mention the helpers who are totally stressed by the masses of people 
[02:07] <Hobbsee> because it's clear that what we're currently doing *isnt* working
[02:08] <ompaul> Hobbsee, I do it now and again but you are right, I don't to the detailed ones like working out that someone needs to fsck and use an alt superblock anymore
[02:08] <Hobbsee> yeah
[02:08] <persia> ompaul: I think that the creation of a "Career path" for support specialists (like BugSquad -> UbuntuQA -> MOTU  Contributor -> ubuntu-dev -> core-dev) would make it easier to keep people happy and doing a good job.
[02:08] <Fujitsu> I don't think it can break much worse.
[02:08] <Hobbsee> they're the kind of people who probably need the help, too.
[02:08] <Hobbsee> ompaul: seeing as that sort of thing doesnt tend to be documented, and seems to change every time
[02:08] <Fujitsu> Right, I sometimes do quick ones these days.
[02:08] <noria> Ubuntu (thankfully) attracts people who have no background in computer science. and these people need guidance
[02:09] <ompaul> persia, remove the arrows and you got a deal ;-) there should be no implicit implication that you have to start at any one level
[02:09] <Hobbsee> #debian doesnt make my eyeballs bleed.
[02:09] <Hobbsee> much
[02:09] <Hobbsee> ompaul: it helps, to do it in that order, though
[02:10] <noria> and keep in mind: if you start on IRC for the first time you can hardly keep track with the scrolling on a channel with 20 people. now scale that to a channel with 1000 people
[02:10] <Fujitsu> ompaul: The entry points are the first and the third.
[02:11] <ompaul> Fujitsu, there are exceptions to those rules
[02:11] <ompaul> noria, point
[02:11] <persia> ompaul: I disagree.  For the support pathway, I suggest that you tell everyone to start in #ubuntu-beginners (or something like that), and let them move to #ubuntu-foo when they have some expertise in a subject (maybe the next day), and so on, up the chain.  They are incented to keep supporting because that way they can get to the next step.
[02:11] <Fujitsu> Maybe if somebody invokes super-powers.
[02:12] <Hobbsee> persia: we dont have the manpower to detain people like that, unless it's by a bot
[02:12] <Hobbsee> but i'm wondering how #ubuntu-beginners would go
[02:12] <Hobbsee> because even the intermediate people should be able to answer the questions
[02:12] <Hobbsee> the forums seem to cope
[02:12] <persia> Hobbsee: Do we detail people in bugsquad -> qa -> contributor?  It's more that those not ready for the next step are encouraged to help more with bugs.
[02:13] <ompaul> persia, so it becomes like the CC interview - we have markers 
[02:13] <Hobbsee> persia: you're a contributor when you do bugsquad.  or support.  i'm not sure what your questoin is
[02:14] <ompaul> Hobbsee, that is code contrib I think
[02:14] <persia> Hobbsee: It's about perception, but you're right in some ways.
[02:14] <Hobbsee> heh.  i answered a question in debian, saying "use this command to do this" adn they immediately went for the manpage.  yay!  :)
[02:14] <Hobbsee> persia: bugsquad is not code contrib, but it's definetly contributions.
[02:14] <persia> ompaul: right.  Not restricted, but people are given official notice somehow when they reach the next step, and congratulated.
[02:14] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Wow, I'd like that knowledge to be more prevalent in #ubuntu :(
[02:15] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: which?
[02:15] <Fujitsu> man
[02:15] <Hobbsee> ah right, yes
[02:15] <Hobbsee> "if someone gives you a command, try using "man command" to get more infomration on it"
[02:16] <Hobbsee> persia: i think that we need to point out why bug triage is good, and to get more people into it - not give off the view that it's a poor substitute for developing
[02:17] <Hobbsee> chances are, they will go into developing after doing bugsquad for a while anyway
[02:17] <Hobbsee> qa is going away, iirc.
[02:17] <ompaul> well that is what happened to gnomefreak that right John?
[02:17] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Where'd you hear this?
[02:17] <persia> QA is going away?  I liked that, and saw a lot of triage being done to be allowed to join QA.  Too bad.
[02:17] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: UDS
[02:17] <Fujitsu> Hm.
[02:18] <Hobbsee> well, with the talk of changing a lot of things in the bugtracker
[02:18] <Hobbsee> no idea how much of it will actually happen though
[02:18] <Hobbsee> it was a productive lunch with the LP guys.
[02:18] <Fujitsu> Hahahaha. Change in LP.
[02:18] <Hobbsee> sure, it happens.   PPA exists now.
[02:18] <ompaul> Hobbsee, they lied to you :-)
[02:18] <Hobbsee> i just didnt write all the info down as to where it is.
[02:18] <Hobbsee> ompaul: i've seen it :P
[02:18] <Hobbsee> ompaul: works nicely
[02:18] <Fujitsu> How does it look?
[02:18] <Fujitsu> What's the interface like?
[02:19] <Hobbsee> meh.  it's listings of files
[02:19] <Hobbsee> uses dput, etc.
[02:19] <Hobbsee> ftp
[02:19] <Hobbsee> does the repositories thing, etc
[02:19] <Hobbsee> no fancy gui around it, iirc.
[02:19] <Hobbsee> i didnt play with it myself - just saw people playing around with it before the end fo the final session, uploading thigns to it, etc
[02:26] <Hobbsee> ompaul: :)
[02:26] <Hobbsee> ompaul: post your thougths to the ML please
[02:26] <ompaul> Hobbsee, no, no, anything but my thoughts, :-)
[02:26] <ompaul> if I get to a conclusion I'll post them
[02:26] <Hobbsee> heh
[02:26] <Hobbsee> post a summary, your thoughts, *and* the conclusion.
[02:27] <Hobbsee> :P
[02:28] <bhale> yay beagle built successfully on all archs
[02:34] <gnomefreak> what happened to me?
[02:34] <persia> Hobbsee: Sorry.  Missed a comment.  I don't think bug triage is a poor substitute for development, I just think that having done some bug triage should be a requirement when applying to be a developer, as otherwise bug management is difficult.
[02:35] <Hobbsee> depends how you're terming a "developer" and how you're measuring it
[02:35] <Hobbsee> are you talking about for motu, or what?
[02:36] <ogra-classmate> congrats
[02:36] <persia> Hobbsee: Sorry ubuntu-dev. 
[02:36] <Hobbsee> persia: right, yeah, of course
[02:37] <gnomefreak> persia: problem that you might run into: person knows enough to be a developer can code maybe 20 years of experience, if needed that bad why tell him come back in 3 months when you have done enough bug triaging?
[02:37] <gnomefreak> know if you are pulling from motu that would be different
[02:37] <gnomefreak> s/know/now
[02:38] <persia> gnomefreak: I'd suggest that person work upstream, help them find some bugs to write code for, and help them manage the bugs until the three months had passed.
[02:38] <Hobbsee> i suspect it's assumed that you'll have done a whole lot with bugs
[02:38] <Hobbsee> whether our people actually do or not, when going for motu, is an interesting question
[02:39] <ogra-classmate> grmbl, why does my pbuilder always fail with jadetex crap
[02:39] <persia> It's assumed.  I think that creating a "Career path" helps protect us from breaking down the word assume.
[02:39] <Hobbsee> which is part of DeveloperResources
[02:40] <Hobbsee> good idea, though
[02:40] <Hobbsee> not sure how far out of scope it is
[02:40] <persia> Hobbsee: *way* out of scope, but as the groups grow, scope can expand (and it becomes important, as it's harder to know people).
[02:41] <Hobbsee> indeed
[02:41] <gnomefreak> i agree i think at times its a great thing but i think there are times where that shouldnt matter. this ofcourse is assuming they are hired by canonical or are we talking just joining the ubuntu-devel team without being employed?
[02:42] <Hobbsee> ubuntu-dev
[02:42] <Hobbsee> so not necessarily canonical employees
[02:42] <persia> gnomefreak: Completely separate from canonical, just Ubuntu
[02:42] <Hobbsee> motu & core
[02:43] <persia> (Canonical may sponsor a large number of core devs and others, but they are only one of many sponsors for Ubuntu)
[02:43] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: dev == motu + core
[02:43] <ogra-classmate> seb128: any hint ? i cant build g-p-m here, my pbuilder fails on jadetex do you have any workaround you use over there ?
[02:44] <seb128> ogra-classmate: what error?
[02:44] <gnomefreak> oh
[02:44] <seb128> ogra-classmate: no workaround, I don't use pbuilder and didn't get any jadetex error on my desktop
[02:44] <ogra-classmate> oh, ok
[02:45] <ogra-classmate> must be my pbuilder then ... it also takes about 30min to even get to the build ... setting up tetex in all languages it seems
[02:45] <ogra-classmate> s/tetex/texlive/
[03:03] <noria> one more thought i have, if nobody stops me from expressing it :P
[03:03] <noria> people dont have to wait for the freenode-registry project to be finished to deal with the changing situation
[03:04] <noria> for those "core developers" who need protection and privacy in their closer environment, a channel could be setup that is set to "invite only" and approved visitors are added to chanserv's access list so they can invite themselves
[03:06] <noria> for lower requirements, a channel bot chan be setup that asks the new visitor to agree with certain points, then gets a passphrase which registers his hostmask for voice. only then the user can ask his questions
[03:06] <persia> noria: At this point, it's probably best to draft some proposed processes for review.  Discussion is good, but having a starting point helps a lot.  I think it's generally agreed that something should be done, but IRC is probably not the best place to document what (although it may be used for decisions).
[03:06] <Hobbsee> canonical has an irc server for that....
[03:06] <Hobbsee> and ubuntu uses open development
[03:06] <broonie> Debian uses a password protected channel.
[03:06] <Hobbsee> trust us - we know a fair bit of irc lingo
[03:06] <persia> noria: Also, there needs to be an open forum for developers.  As long as there is an adequate support structure, it helps a lot.
[03:07] <noria> expressing an opinion is not sign of distrust in abilities and skills of others
[03:07] <noria> i just noticed some people expressing earlier that they "hate users"
[03:07] <noria> and my suggestion would be a quick fix for such people
[03:08] <noria> for that i dont need to spend the next hours on a wiki posting
[03:08] <Hobbsee> it's not the users that are teh problem - it's the questiosn they ask, in the wrong place.
[03:08] <noria> ...
[03:08] <mjg59> We already have a channel devoted to development discussion, not user questions
[03:08] <persia> noria: It's quick, but it's not good :)  Users needs are important, regardless of how much any specific individual might wish to interact with them.  Without users there is no point to working on Ubuntu.
[03:08] <noria> "its not your hairs, but the way you move"
[03:09] <mjg59> There's no problem with users being in here
[03:09] <Hobbsee> uh oh, it's a tech board member
[03:09] <persia> Users even sometimes have good comments in here.
[03:09] <mjg59> The only constraint on use of this channel is that discussion be devoted to development of the distribution
[03:09] <noria> yeah, i think my ideas are fantastic :)
[03:10] <mjg59> I don't think there's any requirement for anything above that
[03:10] <mjg59> It's not a social channel for developers, it's a forum for discussion of developmnt
[03:10] <Hobbsee> mjg59: we had yet another user wanting support in here, saying that she could never get answers in #ubuntu, etc....
[03:10] <noria> yeah. and you better spend a lot of time correcting people who bring other questions to the channel instead of having arrangesments that fix that problem
[03:11] <noria> "the stupid user who does not read the channel topic"
[03:11] <Hobbsee> i didnt say that
[03:11] <noria> thats a general quote and addressed to no person
[03:11] <mjg59> This is an inappropriate place to ask for support
[03:12] <mjg59> If #ubuntu is failing to provide support, then yes, that needs fixing
[03:12] <Hobbsee> mjg59: users are not seeming to undersatnd this.
[03:12] <noria> wrong point of view
[03:12] <Hobbsee> and there are slight discussions as to how to fix that
[03:12] <mjg59> Right. But the appropriate fix isn't to turn this into a support channel and try to give developers a private space
[03:12] <noria> you expect that a person who is new to Ubuntu and new to IRC sticks to prefect procedure. and that shows a very limited understand of humans 
[03:13] <Hobbsee> noria: it's like road rules.  yes.
[03:13] <noria> Hobbsee, please dont go to a personal level
[03:13] <mjg59> noria: We have no problem with directing people to the right place
[03:13] <noria> mjg59, okay
[03:13] <mjg59> If someone asks a question here, it's quick and easy to direct them elsewhere
[03:13] <noria> i hope i dont have to read about hate that often then
[03:14] <Hobbsee> ...
[03:14] <Hobbsee> if you twist words, you can read whatever you like.
[03:14] <noria> Hobbsee, please dont go to a personal level
[03:14] <mjg59> noria: The only person to have mentioned the word hate is you
[03:14] <noria> mjg59, that is not correct if you scroll back
[03:14] <Hobbsee> (and persia, hours ago, about hating doing user support)
[03:15] <mjg59> noria: Not within the past 8 hours
[03:15] <persia> noria: I believe I'm the person who expressed that I didn't much like doing user support, but I certainly don't hate the users.
[03:16] <Hobbsee> noria: i'm not sure how that's going onto a personal level, or possibly becoming a personal attack - it's a simple fact.  if you're twisting words, you'll be reading whatever you want to be.
[03:16] <Hobbsee> i really cant see how this is helping, nor is it on topic
[03:16] <noria> we can do nit-picking, we can agree on the fact that i better part, or we can discuss about opinions
[03:16] <Hobbsee> ompaul: has had some useful input, so hopefully the irc team will be able to come up with a better solution
[03:17] <Hobbsee> and until anyone actually *does* something, then i'ts all hot air.
[03:17] <noria> so my opinion is hot air. and that is not a personal level that you choose?
[03:17] <Seveas> Hobbsee, hot air can be useful for a hot air balloon ;)
[03:17] <mjg59> noria: An opinion alone does little to change things
[03:17] <Hobbsee> Seveas: this is true.  please read the backscroll on what to do with #ubuntu - there are some good thoughts there.
[03:18] <noria> some body might be really good with code, but it looks to me that some people have no feeling for humans
[03:18] <Seveas> Hobbsee, read parts of it, don't like noria's approach to 'expressing an opinion'
[03:18] <persia> Seveas: feel free to bug me if you want assistance with process documentation.
[03:18] <Hobbsee> Seveas: noria's had trouble with freenode staff before - i never found out why.
[03:19] <Hobbsee> Seveas: i was meaning about splitting the channel up - that section
[03:19] <Seveas> Hobbsee, that's been suggested numerous times -- was the split design any good this time?
[03:19] <Hobbsee> Seveas: i believe so
[03:19] <Hobbsee> Seveas: it was good enough that ompaul is thinking about it, rather than rejecting it outright.
[03:20] <Seveas> that's better than previous attempts then :)
[03:20] <Hobbsee> exactly
[03:28] <Hobbsee> mjg59: as a member of the tech board, what kind of meeting times work for you?
[03:32] <mjg59> Anything between 12:00 and 02:00 or so BST
[03:33] <mjg59> Though, outside the role of #ubuntu-devel, I don't think any of this is really a tech board issue
[03:35] <Hobbsee> mjg59: true.  it's unrelated.  (core dev app)
[03:35] <Hobbsee> mjg59: can you give that to me in a real timezone please?
[03:35] <Hobbsee> like, UTC?
[03:36] <Lure> Hobbsee: BST is UTC+1 now and I think most (all?) TB is in this timezone
[03:36] <Hobbsee> oh blerg.  i could have coped with "london time" or something.
[03:37] <Hobbsee> or UTS
[03:37] <Hobbsee> * UTC
[03:37] <Lure> Hobbsee: BritishStandardTime, afair
[03:37] <mjg59> Summer Time
[03:37] <mjg59> But yeh
[03:37] <Lure> mjg59: right
[03:37] <Hobbsee> let's hope kclock is right hten.
[03:37] <mjg59> Hobbsee: Ah, ok.
[03:38] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: said that my afternoon would be good for you guys
[03:38] <Hobbsee> either i cant add, or it's actually not.
[03:38] <persia> Hobbsee: 9 hours earlier than your local time
[03:41] <Hobbsee> 9pm local, until 11am the next day.  right.
[03:41] <Hobbsee> persia is right, then.
[03:41] <Hobbsee> persia: now do my maths assignment.
[03:41] <Hobbsee> thankyou in advance.
[03:42] <persia> Hobbsee: pastebin?
[03:42] <Hobbsee> you need an ID and such for it, i think :(
[03:42] <Hobbsee> it's tripple integrals, and general stuff that was covered while i was in spain  / not at uni
[03:43] <Hobbsee> it probably wouldnt be that evil if i looked at it, and knew the material.
[03:43] <persia> Hobbsee: I don't have an ID.  Sorry.
[03:43] <Hobbsee> yeah i realise ;(
[03:55] <highvoltage> a
[04:08] <ompaul> Seveas, we are not putting a quantity on how much better at this stage ;-) I have reservations about a split but can see some merits in same
[04:09] <ompaul> Seveas, got a land line close to you, I have an idea I want to bounce and see if it is plausable
[04:09] <Hobbsee> heh
[04:09] <Hobbsee> oh you lucky people who can do that
[04:09] <ompaul> Hobbsee, have telephone will talk
[04:09] <ompaul> have viop will talk for less
[04:09] <persia> Hobbsee: You don't have a telephone?
[04:09] <ompaul> voip even
[04:09] <Hobbsee> this is true
[04:10] <Hobbsee> crap.  it's about an assignment that's probably due tomorrow, and that i havent even started yet.  brilliant.
[04:11] <ompaul> byeee
[04:17] <Hobbsee> good thing they dont care if i submit very late
[04:31] <EnolaGay> hi all
[04:31] <Hobbsee> hiya
[04:31] <EnolaGay> Is it possible that sony_acpi is removed from the linux-source-22 but not from the kernel package?
[04:31] <EnolaGay> hi Hobbsee
[04:32] <Hobbsee> ask in #ubuntu-kernel
[04:32] <EnolaGay> In Gutsy of course :)
[04:32] <EnolaGay> ok, thx
[05:16] <mrsn0> bugs.launchpad really slow recently or is it just me ? :)
[05:19] <finalbeta> Goes faster then before for me.
[05:19] <finalbeta> I'm using openDNS servers now. Might just be that for me.
[05:30] <shawarma> I really wish irssi would show the old /topic along with the new one when it was changed..
[05:37] <siretart> shawarma: I'm using topics.pl (an irssi script) for that.
[05:38] <shawarma> I just found topic-diff.. Now I'm just holding my breath until someone changes the topic. :)
[05:40] <Keybuk> lifeless: around?
[06:00] <mrsn0> finalbeta strange, opendns seemed to make it load faster O-o thx
[06:01] <afflux> A package using gdk-pixbuf-csource fails to build ("Couldn't recognize the image file format for file '../pixmaps/camorama-webcam-16.png'"). Would it be okay to put a "gdk-pixbuf-query-loaders > /etc/gtk-2.0/gdk-pixbuf.loaders" before the call of gdk-pixbuf-csource?
[06:01] <afflux> (not really sure if this is the right channel)
[06:02] <finalbeta> mrsn0: np. Seems to perform better then many peoples own DNS servers.
[06:03] <mrsn0> finalbeta one less reason to rely on virgin/nthell ;)
[06:03] <mrsn0> if only i could switch my cable to "opencable" and such a thing existed
[06:35] <keescook> wow.  udev totally broke my lvm snapshotting.
[06:37] <Hobbsee> morning keescook 
[06:37] <keescook> hiya Hobbsee :)
[06:41] <siretart> keescook: :(
[06:42] <ogra-classmate> does anyone know if squashfs supports XIP already ? i know it was planned 
[06:42] <siretart> keescook: my system doesn't boot again. it breaks again in initramfs, after doing the 'lvm vgchange -ay; logout' makes it boot
[06:42] <siretart> keescook: can you confirm that?
[06:42] <keescook> siretart: yup, same for me.
[06:43] <siretart> great!
[06:43] <keescook> I think something must have been left out of the lvm2 merge, but I haven't tracked that down; I can workaround that.  the snapshotting thing... I'm unable to do any work.  :P
[06:44] <siretart> not able to boot warrants severity 'critical' imho
[06:44] <siretart> keescook: are you talking about bug #105936
[06:44] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 105936 in lvm2 "snapshot creation failure race "in use: not deactivating"" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/105936
[06:45] <keescook> siretart: nope, I don't even get devices any more.  :(  (though perhaps once this is fixed that "in use" bug will be gone)
[06:51] <benpi> hi
[06:52] <benpi> I've hard kernel freezes since upgrade to Feisty ; seting up remote-console, I only got this kernel message : "[99350.074138]  invalid opcode: 0000 [#1] "
[06:53] <mrsn0> benpi this channel is for devel talk, try #ubuntu i believe
[06:53] <benpi> ah ok (was about : how to debug such a freeze, actually)
[06:54] <benpi> sorry for disturbing
[07:39] <turmo> can I ask a question?
[07:40] <welshbyte> turmo: first rule of asking questions is just go ahead and ask the question, don't ask if you can ask it
[07:40] <turmo> what question should I ask?
[07:43] <desrt> "am i a troll?"
[07:45] <turmo> ?
[07:46] <turmo> what question shall I ask?
[07:46] <mjg59> What question do you want to ask?
[07:46] <turmo> yes
[07:47] <turmo> what question shall I ask?
[07:47] <ogra-classmate> (07:39:23 PM) turmo: can I ask a question?
[07:47] <ogra-classmate> which one *did* you want to ask ?
[07:47] <turmo> why?
[07:48] <turmo> what question shall I ask?
[07:48] <ogra-classmate> mjg59: since you are here, any clue if there are chances we ever see that in ubuntu ? http://lwn.net/Articles/192851/
[07:49] <ogra-classmate> it would be extremely helpful for thin client boots 
[07:49] <mjg59> ogra-classmate: So far it hasn't proven to be stable
[07:49] <turmo> what question shall I ask?
[07:50] <ogra-classmate> well, he says its relatively stable in certain conditions
[07:50] <ogra-classmate> which thin clients would fulfill
[07:51] <ogra-classmate> the udev initscript takes about a third of the overall bootime of a thin client boot cutting that down would improve a lot
[07:51] <mjg59> ogra-classmate: That seems massively unlikely
[07:51] <mjg59> Well, Greg gets an improvement of 0.4 seconds
[07:51] <ogra-classmate> well, dropping udevsettle from the initscript to make init not wait for udev finishing brings me about 20secs on a standard HW client
[07:52] <turmo> what question shall I ask
[07:52] <mjg59> turmo: If you have a question to ask, ask it. Otherwise no, you can't ask a question.
[07:52] <ogra-classmate> so i assume parallel threading would lie somewhere inbetween
[07:52] <mjg59> Right now, it results in stuff breaking
[07:52] <turmo> what question shall I ask
[07:52] <ogra-classmate> yeah, indeed
[07:56] <turmo> what question shall I ask
[08:03] <Joe_CoT> #ubuntu-bugs
[08:03] <Joe_CoT> (sorry)
[08:05] <wereHamster> can I create a bug in launchpad where I request a new package to be added (I'm neither running ubuntu nor do I have experience creating debian packages, but building the package should be straight-forward aka. ./configure; make; sudo make install;)?
[08:09] <geser> wereHamster: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Candidates for how to do it
[08:31] <wereHamster> geser, thanks
[08:39] <keescook> cjwatson_: can you ACK the final grub debdiff for bug 106887?  It looks fine to me, but I'm not a grub expert.  :)
[08:39] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 106887 in grub ""ALERT! does not exist" at boot with ICH7" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/106887
[08:51] <shaya> anyone running gutsy on a t60?
[08:51] <shaya> there seem to be multiple issues
[08:57] <mjg59> shaya: Have you reported them?
[08:57] <shaya> just discovered them :)
[08:57] <shaya> playing around w/ a T60 I got off of craig's list
[08:57] <shaya> though it semi sucks in gutsy right now do to fglrx not working w/ new X and having to use VESA
[09:16] <keescook> yay, snapshot creation solved.
[10:21] <wasabi> Hmm... I think sleep on my laptop is sort of working... except that when it gets back the monitor doesn't turn back on.
[10:21] <wasabi> adding a delay of 5 seconds after chvt 12 fixed the corruption. ;)
[10:25] <wasabi> Hmm... I think sleep on my laptop is sort of working... except that when it gets back the monitor doesn't turn back on.
[10:33] <AlexLatchford> I was just reading through this spec... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianMaintainerField.. There seems to be that derivatives of Ubuntu are not accounted for.. What about Linspire's maintainer? Where does that go..? I would add a comment to the wiki page, but I am unsure of if I am allowed as the spec has been approved..
[10:48] <Burgundavia> AlexLatchford: it is expected that derivs don;t really care about other derivs maintainers
[10:49] <AlexLatchford> fair enough
[10:49] <Burgundavia> are you a linspire dev?
[10:49] <AlexLatchford> Nope.. just thought that if this has come up now with Deb/Ubuntu it may come up between Ubuntu/DistroX in the future
[10:50] <AlexLatchford> thus it would make sense to implement it now..
[10:50] <Burgundavia> I imagine linspire would create an "original-ubuntu-maintainer" field
[10:51] <AlexLatchford> Ah okay, so these changes do not have to go back upstream?
[10:51] <AlexLatchford> (I am not the most technical of guys)
[10:51] <Burgundavia> no, those changes are done at the Ubuntu level, by our buildds and infrastrucure
[10:52] <AlexLatchford> Ahh, okay.. that's cool then, I was worried that the spec was collaborating with Debian and changing the structure for all their packages also.. which would be pain in the future if the change was needed again..
[11:17] <_StefanS_> stuff related to gutsy, and kernel bug(s), what channel is that?
[11:17] <_StefanS_> and hi ;)
[11:18] <Burgundavia> _StefanS_: bugs go in launchpad
[11:18] <Burgundavia> if you want to help with kernel development, try #ubuntu-kernel
[11:18] <_StefanS_> Burgundavia: I know, but I was wondering whether my mptscsi issue was my fault