[01:12] jjesse: can you give me that patch in txt format? [01:12] it is in html format on lp [01:13] actually, I can just edit manually [01:41] nixternal: well, since you don't know about Qt and C++, I'm sure you know about KDE documentation [01:41] what is that? [01:41] does anybody with 'gobby' installed feel like "mentoring" me in rewriting my KMail + gpg-agent article? [01:42] ryanakca: you want to know the easiest way to do what you want? [01:42] download and use Desktop MoinMoin [01:42] Desktop MoinMoin? okies [01:42] you can do it in wiki, and then export to docbook with the new version [01:42] And... what do I want? [01:42] ah [01:42] ya, I have been messing with it here lately [01:43] it is actually working fairly well [01:45] nixternal: hmmm. If I'm exporting it to docbook... where is it going? I was thinking it would go into Community Documentation on help.u.c... [01:46] ahh, then no need to export it to docbook..I thought that is why you asked for mentoring === ryanakca is more concerned with the proper formatting/structure, as well as the "quality" [01:46] gotcha [01:46] you can always post it to the wiki and work from there..much easier than asking me to fireup gobby ;) [01:47] hmmm... but I'm more than willing to convert it to docbook, and you can stick it somewheres [01:47] I am afraid of where you might want me to stick it ;p [01:47] I dunno [01:48] ryanakca: I would love to put it into KDE documentation for one, and if it doesn't fit there well do to it being distro dependant, then I would love to have it in Kubuntu docs === ryanakca hasn't really read any documentation other than a few man pages [01:48] It would have to be distro dependant... [01:49] speaking of manpages, I actually have to create one in order to be considered for a debian developer [01:49] that one through me for a loop [01:49] hehe [01:49] get a KDE app and run kdemangen.pl on it :P [01:49] hehe [01:50] isn't there a xml or docbook 2 man? [01:50] You created it... kindof... [01:50] I have used help2man before [01:52] hmmm [02:04] nixternal: did you get that patch correctly? [02:04] I just did it by hand...it was spitting it out as html on lp..did you select the patch button? [02:04] hmm don't remember what i did, i thought i just attached a file [02:05] ya, if it is a patch you need to select the patch checkbox just under the folder icon when you attach [02:05] ok, will do in the future [02:12] nixternal: Any idea what the gentoo documentation is released under? [02:12] license wise? [02:13] gfdl I thought [02:13] cc-by-sa for us === ryanakca likes the intro from http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_KMail_gpg-agent_kde [02:13] but.. if someone is going to be installing gpg-agent with kmail, they know what gpg, -agent and kmail are. [02:14] http://gentoo-wiki.com/Gentoo_Linux_Wiki:Copyrights [02:14] Unless otherwise stated, the content of this wiki is in public domain. [02:15] ah, so, safe to include the What is gpg-agent blurb? === merriam__ [n=merriam@85-211-245-180.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:34] nixternal: how do you include boxes like those in http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_KMail_gpg-agent_kde#Setup for moinmoin? I know I could use tables, but anything more elegant? [02:34] not in our version unfortunately [02:34] nixternal: email message sent, please add in your .02 [02:35] will do [03:12] nixternal: done. [03:12] I just have do figure out how to place a paragraph in a table though... it seems to be ignoring [[BR] ] [03:14] nixternal: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KMailGPGAgent#preview === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:32] hmm, bzr again [04:34] nixternal: have you been doing any docs in bzr? [04:34] no buntu docs no [04:35] messing with jjesse docs, and kubuntu-system-settings, and a couple of websites..and the list goes on [04:35] I'm pretty hesitant still [04:35] I want to see LP with the smartserver stuff [04:35] and time that and see how fast it is [04:36] it is a tad bit faster now..hell, I can commit faster with bzr than I can doc svn right now [04:38] yeah, but commit speed hasn't really ever been an issue I don't think [04:38] nah, just the initial checkout is slow [04:38] the initial commit, too. [04:38] and remember you are pulling in the entire history as well [04:38] and quadruply so on a 33.6kbps [04:38] remember not all of us are on broadband. [04:38] and we need to see if there was an issue with the export from svn to the import of bzr as well [04:38] crimsun: then I suggest they get broadband ;) [04:39] nixternal: tell that to the providers. [04:39] there are only 8 contribs at most to docs anyways right now :) [04:39] point me to them, I will gettum [04:39] I'll suffer for a few more weeks. After I move, I'll just get fiber. [04:40] oooh [04:40] living in DC, there is fiber everywhere [04:40] jjesse usually uses dialup [04:40] yes, and I won't be paying for it. :) [04:40] LaserJock: but that is understandable with jjesse seeing most of his neighbors just purchased AOL accounts. I know where he lives...remember Deliverance? :) [04:41] SQUEEL!!! [04:44] I think we can handle dialup users by providing weekly/monthly tarballs [04:45] that isn't to bad of an idea..but only if we get them asking [04:46] weekly could be managed. I'd rsync, much as I do now. [04:47] also with bzr you can do the lightweight checkouts [04:48] yeah, but then ... [04:48] why not just keep using svn [04:49] the thing is, with our current workflow I really don't see any real advantage with bzr [04:49] just trying to be like everyone else ;) [04:49] lets switch to git [04:49] ;p [04:50] well, switch RCS just 'cause is pretty stupid, IMO [04:59] I think we need to sort of rework workflow/repo structure if we want to use bzr [05:00] oh most definitely [05:00] I think having xubuntu-docs, kubuntu-docs, edubuntu-docs, and ubuntu-docs all within the Ubuntu Documentation Project would be good [05:01] or could be good rather [05:01] yeah, but that means reworking things [05:01] well, I can easily separate kubuntu docs from svn w/o any issues [05:01] I would need trunk/libs and thats about it [05:05] the svn structure is specificly designed to minimize redundancy [05:05] and to enourage collaboration, team spirit [05:06] sorry was afk playing madden and now heading to bed [05:06] i'm on dsl now [05:06] and thanks nixternal [05:07] svn just seems more cumbersome to maintain [05:07] anyways email the list as i'm off to bed [05:09] it's only cumbersome because he keeps forgetting his svn password ;-) [05:12] hahahahahahahaha [05:12] you know what we should do if we keep svn [05:12] svn+ssh [05:12] that way there you can't lose your key [05:12] debian is svn+ssh, kde is svn+ssh [05:22] yeah, seems like that would help === bhuvan [n=bhuvan@ubuntu/member/bhuvan] has joined #ubuntu-doc === endperform [n=endperfo@c-24-99-14-44.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === endperform [n=endperfo@c-24-99-14-44.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] === Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@ubuntu/member/burgundavia] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Gwaihir [n=Gwaihir@mail.foredil.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === glatzor [n=sebi@p57AEDDCB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke [n=matt@80-47-141-162.lond-th.dynamic.dial.as9105.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:52] morning all === willvdl [n=will@41.206.34.170] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sacater [n=sacater@colchester-lug/member/sacater] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@121-72-131-30.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === glatzor [n=sebi@p57AEF58D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === willvdl [n=will@41.206.34.170] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bodhi_zazen [n=bodhizaz@stpete.helmednet.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sacater [n=sacater@colchester-lug/member/sacater] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bodhi_zazen [n=bodhizaz@stpete.helmednet.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc === willvdl [n=will@196.201.228.158] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Admiral_Chicago [n=freddy@adsl-68-255-99-153.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:35] New bug: #117382 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Usability of 'Manually Mounting and Unmounting File Systems'" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/117382 [06:40] New bug: #48852 in ubuntu-docs (main) "relogin isn't sufficient for xserver config changes [desktopguide - config-system] " [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/48852 [06:41] hrmm [08:59] nixternal: outrageous... encouraging people to post howtos on their blogs [09:05] heh [09:10] lol [09:10] I knew you would say something about that :) [09:12] I've actually been planning a plea for bloggers to contribute their howtos to the wiki [09:13] there is a lot of good material out there which doesn't get near the wiki :( [09:14] I suppose [09:14] I am getting ready to do a Howto on Howto post a Howto :) [09:14] hahaha [09:14] I do find a lot of good stuff on blogs === mdke nods [09:15] especially the more technical stuff [09:16] yeah === Gwaihir [n=Gwaihir@ubuntu/member/gwaihir] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:29] so LaserJock, what about this bzr business [09:29] heh [09:29] if LP gets the bzr smartserver then the speed should be quite a bit improved [09:29] I don't think the "waiting on RT" issue is a big one [09:29] it's speed vs convenience of using LP [09:30] and if it doesn't have smartserver right now I think it's going to be real soon now [09:30] is the speed poor even if you use it without downloading the whole history? [09:31] it's still a bit slower than svn, but not nearly as much as a full branching [09:31] each release of bzr gets faster and faster [09:31] the biggest reason I can see [09:31] right [09:31] would be the ability to check out just kubuntu docs, or edubuntu docs, etc. [09:31] I'm not really sure about that [09:32] I see quite a few people that one to contribute to a specific area [09:32] there is common stuff for all of them [09:32] but they get overwhelmed with having the whole repo [09:32] I agree [09:32] that's why I'm hesitant about [09:32] *what [09:32] let's think this through [09:32] what would be the consequence of keeping all the packages separately? [09:33] well, I think it could depend on how we do it [09:33] theoretically, not much; I guess. A small amount of effort to keep the common stuff updated across them all. In practice, I suspect that it would be problematic in terms of each sub-group following what the others are doing [09:34] I *think* we could split it up into something like common, ubuntu, edubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu, teamstuff [09:34] so if you want to work on kubuntu you could get a branch of common and kubuntu [09:35] hmm [09:35] I don't like that much [09:35] for technical reasons? [09:35] no :) [09:35] right [09:36] just a feeling [09:36] me too [09:36] I don't have a problem with nuking common and simply putting the relevant docs into each branch [09:36] I'm just concerned that the benefits of having us all working together would be lost [09:37] fragmentation etc [09:37] yeah, I can certainly understand that [09:38] although I'm not sure if I like the idea of having a technical constraint in order to keep the team together [09:38] but then again, do any other packages which appear in kubuntu, edubuntu and ubuntu share the same branch or source package? [09:39] not that I know of [09:39] maybe *ubuntu-desktop [09:39] there we go...howto post a howto [09:39] those are done from separate source [09:39] the -desktops are separate source built from seed files that are in bzr in ~ubuntu-core-dev [09:40] svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/kubuntu [09:40] ideally that's the situation I'd like to see with the docs [09:40] ya, so that doesn't work out well [09:40] LaserJock: can you explain how that works? [09:40] only thing though, that won't pull in the trunk/libs or trunk/common [09:41] mdke: well, the seed files are stored in bzr in ~ubuntu-core-dev [09:41] I think another reason was hit on my LaserJock last night, and that was the "forgetting of passwords"...which could be curbed by using svn+ssh [09:41] each derive and release is a separate branch [09:42] nixternal: or the writing down of passwords [09:42] so edubuntu-feisty, ubuntu-gutsy, etc. [09:42] mdke: that makes to much sense thoug ;) [09:42] s/thoug/though [09:43] nixternal: jjesse's problem is that he keeping forgetting his gnupg password, which is *quite odd*. I have no confidence that he will remember his ssh key password better :) [09:43] and using svn+ssh would also prevent us from having to go to RT everytime to add a user...we would just add their key to a script file in svn [09:43] but ssh doesn't use your gpg password [09:43] no, it uses your ssh password/phrase [09:43] it uses a plain text password [09:44] our svn uses some silly password..it don't use my ssh password either...I have the password in a txt file in ~/.ssh [09:44] no, you've missed the point [09:44] I shouldn't say silly, but it uses plain text when it is just ssh [09:44] he can't remember his GNUPG key password in order to decrypt the email with his svn password [09:44] are we talking bzr or ssh with the ssh password/phrase [09:45] mdke: oh..hahahaGHAHAH@H#@ [09:45] if he can't remember that, then why will he be able to remember his ssh password? [09:45] holy smokes I did not catch that [09:45] :) [09:45] anyway, RT is quite quick with svn requests nowadays [09:46] still, if there are reasons to use bzr over svn, then we should consider it anyway [09:46] only thing I don't like about using svn is if I lose my laptop, someone can commit quite easily...svn+ssh curbs that as well...a little more security really [09:46] yeah, I think it's minimally more convenient to do authentication via LP team [09:46] well I think waiting for the module that LaserJock was referring to may be best [09:46] LaserJock: nod [09:47] I think the strongest point is that bzr would open up new workflows [09:47] and we can give it a shot in a bit [09:47] not that it makes our current workflow better [09:47] potentially we could move to bzr and keep a single repo, and then consider split repos later [09:47] well, people can create their own personal bzr branch if needed, and we would still be able to pull from it and merge it into svn quite easily [09:47] and vice-versa [09:48] mdke: I think really we perhaps need a spec/wiki page [09:48] we need to get the bzr guys (like lifeless) to help us out [09:49] ok. are you volunteering? [09:49] another thing I could possibly take a little flak over is licensing...it seems there may be some unhappy people coming down the tubes since Kubuntu docs are CC-by-SA and not GFDL anymore. I am guessing the KDE and Debian guys that have used some of our docs and vice-versa in the past [09:49] Riddell pinged me earlier but has yet to respond [09:50] I will keep you abreast of the situation though [09:50] debian has used our docs? [09:50] ya..I didn't know that until I got emailed today by one [09:50] well [09:50] oh well; they are still free to do so :) [09:50] it's not like we've closed anything up [09:50] cc-by-sa == non-free to Debian Policy though [09:50] the email said they think the docs should be done more in collaboration [09:51] nixternal: so is gfdl [09:51] the list email did [09:51] for debian it has to be GPL [09:51] yup [09:51] or MIT/BSD and such [09:51] well, it has to be compatible with GPL [09:51] I haven't seen these emails [09:52] i.e. not GFDL or CC [09:52] mdke: nixternal when and made a mistake by emailing the debian documentation mailing list [09:52] I am guessing with the new release of the GFDL that is due out about the same time as the GPL v3 [09:52] haha LaserJock [09:52] spontaneously? [09:53] or prompted by something else? [09:53] I had helped with one of their documents prior...not spontaneously [09:53] prompted by a KDE/Debian talk last night [09:53] so they have used some of our documentation, and can no longer do so? [09:54] well from the talk in #kde-docs yesterday that would be a yes...on the Kubuntu side of things [09:54] Debian doesn't have much KDE help it seems [09:54] what did they use? [09:54] I couldn't tell you [09:54] I haven't even seen a KDE based doc out of them truthfully [09:55] It seems really strange the idea that *our* upstream is complaining about our licensing [09:55] I wonder how they use KDE documentation then seeing it is GFDL [09:55] anyone, bbl [09:55] anyway* [09:55] hehe [09:55] later [09:55] GFDL is ok as long as it doesn't have invariant sections [09:55] I think [09:56] LaserJock: you are correct...I tend to forget about the invariance [09:56] which is not cool, in some instances [09:57] Debian had to basically strip out the TeX documentation [09:57] and RMS isn't so happy :-) [09:57] RMS should know better though [09:57] yeah, but he made some really good sense === Knightlust [n=Dax@203.87.200.214] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:58] I was told by Peter Brown that they are supposedly removing the "invariant sections" part(s) [09:58] like he set the license in the doc as a invariant section [09:58] *an [09:58] because you should be changing the license, right? [09:59] nixternal: fixed a few typos, etc in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KMailGPGAgent ... how do I export to docbook with Moin Moin desktop? [10:00] in the drop down menu there is the option [10:00] hmmm. Okies [10:00] LaserJock: I should be changing it? === nixternal is confused [10:04] nixternal: changing what/ [10:04] ? [10:04] [ LaserJock] because you should be changing the license, right? [10:04] which license? and why me? [10:04] bah [10:05] let me rewrite my sentence [10:05] lol [10:05] RMS set the licensing section of documentation as invariant [10:05] since people deriving from the work shouldn't be changing the text of the license [10:05] ahh, got it [10:06] yes you are correct [10:06] like if I working from a doc that was GFDL I shouldn't be able to reword the GFDL [10:06] so that really did make sense to me [10:06] correct...at least what I could gather from the Debian lists from 2004 when that all started [10:07] I also noticed that while watching the GPL v3 highlights where people could leave messages, I swore I seen the "invariant" section in there as well [10:07] and someone commented on it [10:07] so according to the GFDL you can only make "secondary" material as invariant [10:07] which is another reason I don't mind it [10:08] right [10:08] there is a "Secondary" and "Invariant" section [10:08] so I really don't have a problem with GFDL [10:08] but I can sort of see where it'd be DFSG non-free [10:08] but I think it's an area where DFSG is a big pain in the butt and not realistic [10:08] OK, so the invariant applies to the secondary [10:09] you can *only* mak invariant a secondary section [10:09] "Secondary Section" is a named appendix or a front-matter section of [10:09] the Document that deals exclusively with the relationship of the [10:09] publishers or authors of the Document to the Document's overall subject [10:09] (or to related matters) and contains nothing that could fall directly [10:09] within that overall subject. [10:09] oops didn't mean to paste that much [10:10] hehe, I have it open reading it as well [10:10] so I really don't see why those invariant sections restricte anything meaningful [10:10] ya, me either [10:11] I need to re-read that debian list again to see their reasoning [10:11] but definition it doesn't effect the real contents of the doc [10:11] well, they don't care how significant it is, I think [10:11] if it restricts modification in anyway I think it's non-DFSG [10:12] that legal mumbu jumbo is enough to drive someone to drink [10:12] s/mumbu/mumbo [10:13] yeah [10:13] I really dislike licensing, especially doc licensing [10:13] hehe, it should just say "You are free to do whatever" [10:14] but then ... do I want people to do "whatever"? [10:14] I go between wanting to MIT everything I do [10:14] to wanting to make everything proprietary evilness ;-) [10:14] the MIT license from what I can understand isn't to shabby, nor is the BSD license [10:15] the BSD license will allow you to make it proprietary evilness [10:15] what exactly is a "front-matter section" [10:16] never mind, that same sentence tries to explain it [10:16] like I was thinking the other day what it'd be like to find out code I'd written as used by hackers/terrorists/bad guys to do harm [10:16] nixternal: where would you like the docbook for the KMail thing? ubuntu-doc ML? [10:17] you can put it there or fire it off to me [10:17] make sure you dual license that bad boy though so I can use it with Kubuntu docs as well as KDE docs [10:17] ;D [10:18] dual license... === ryanakca scratches his head [10:19] send me the legal blurb/tell me how to do that, and sure [10:20] in order for me to be able to use your work, you need to license it either GFDL for KDE or CC-by-SA for Kubuntu, or both :) [10:20] you can explicitly state that in a signed email as well [10:21] if you do, at least link me to the GFDL and the CC-by-SA 2.5 license [10:21] Kubuntu won't take GFDL? [10:21] instead of attaching the huge things there [10:21] ox [10:21] ok [10:21] nope, only CC-by-SA unless Riddell pushes for GFDL/GPL [10:21] ohhh for goodness sakes :/ [10:21] hehe [10:22] sorry, just reading planet :( [10:22] lol [10:22] which one? === ryanakca pushes Riddell to push for GFDL [10:22] ryanakca: something tells me that his ping earlier was going to get into that [10:23] nixternal: \sh leaving Ubuntu ... again [10:23] I just noticed he is back online [10:23] LaserJock: hahahaha [10:23] you are just now reading about it? [10:23] you didn't see them arguing in motu earlier? [10:24] I am upset with the fact they a) argued it out in a public channel, and b) it got posted tot he planet afterwards [10:24] that is the stuff the FUD/anti-Ubuntu people love to see [10:24] you know, and Dell enjoys seeing it as well [10:25] darn it === Knightlust_ [n=Dax@203.87.200.214] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:45] holy smokes, I just read the 2006 vote for the GFDL and the DFSG...talk about mind boggling [10:45] so now I totally understand the "secondary section" [10:46] it is the a section created with the beliefs and/or opinions of the author...therefor the author makes that section invariant [10:46] nixternal: hmmm. Do I need to add the licenses as a comment in the docbook file? [10:47] which is commendable, as you wouldn't want anyone editing and changing your beliefs/opinions and still calling them yours [10:47] it makes sense, and I agree with option 3, it would be considered unethical to do so [10:47] ryanakca: you probably should [10:47] bbiaf..need to check up on the weather outside [10:47] comments... [10:47] ok === Igorots [n=Dax@203.87.200.214] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:54] sure === beuno [n=martin@ubuntu/member/beuno] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:58] nixternal: hmmm. And, saving the file messes up the structure... *points to #docbook* [11:01] any idea? [11:03] weee! I fixed it with `tidy` [11:05] [11:05] haha [11:08] ah, that's all I need? [11:09] and link to the licenses I guess [11:09] but ifyou got it, don't worry about it then === ryanakca had links to them, and the legal copyright blurb for GFDL [11:09] hmmm. [11:09] you are good to go then [11:09] How do I "visualize"/read the docbook. I can see the xml stuff, but reading it? [11:10] rendering is probably a better term [11:10] meinproc *.xml [11:19] nixternal: Error: CALS tables must specify the number of columns. [11:19] hrmm [11:20] send me the xml file, let me take a quick look at it [11:20] ok [11:22] brb..I need to eat some food [11:22] sent [11:22] ok === jjesse [n=jjesse@ppp-70-226-88-166.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:37] when you come back, I've cleaned up a bit of it, and fixed that error. It still doesn't properly generate the .html... it creates two files, one with intro and TOC, and another with conclusion. [11:37] http://blog.ryanak.ca/KMailGPGAgent.xml [11:51] oh wow, the moin2docbook doesn't make a pretty output does it [11:51] it actually creates invalid xml [11:56] hmmm [11:57] that's what it looks like after running tidy -m -i -xml KMailGPGAgent.xml on it, btw [11:57] feel free to mess around with the formatting... [11:58] hrmm, from into to conclusion [12:00] did you already post to the wiki this document? [12:00] ya, that made sense [12:00] I have an old copy on the ubuntu wiki, just a sec [12:00] where is your new copy wikified? [12:00] wtf is up with me [12:01] where is your new WIKIFIED copy [12:01] nixternal: what moin2docbook are you using? [12:01] the latest in MoinMoin Personal Desktop [12:01] nixternal: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KMailGPGAgent [12:02] nixternal: ah, that is rubbish [12:02] nixternal: I had fixed it up on my desktop wiki, just had to update the help.ubuntu.com [12:02] cool ryanakca [12:02] is there another version mdke? === ryanakca brb, restarting X [12:03] nixternal: there is a test wiki with the latest code, but it appears to be broken [12:03] hrmm...maybe I can find the latest code and create a new plugin with it [12:03] that would be very helpful [12:04] http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/DocBook [12:04] Burgwork: damn; we have communication issues === mdke beds [12:09]