[12:23] <hendrixski> when I run debuild -S it can't find my gpg secret key
[12:24] <crimsun> pass -k0xfoo to debuild
[12:24] <hendrixski> it never asks me to enter the secret key to sign the package, is there somewhere in the system I should enter it?
[12:24] <ampache> debuild -k<keyid>
[12:24] <hendrixski> crimsun, so like debuild -k 0xMYPUBLICKEY
[12:25] <crimsun> no space
[12:25] <hendrixski> ah
[12:25] <Fujitsu> Like -ka7247dc5
[12:25] <bmm> Hi everybody. I'm looking for comments on or advocates for ccbuild http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5295
[12:26] <StevenK> Actually, -k<unique identifer> works too, like -kstevenk
[12:26] <hendrixski> ah... OK... and I have to do this per package, right?  it's not a one-time deal?
[12:27] <mshima> try to put "export GPGKEY=XXXXXXX" at your .bashrc
[12:28] <hendrixski> mshima, I already have... that was in the instructions for setting up my gpgkey
[12:28] <mshima> or "export DEBEMAIL=yourmail@server.com"
[12:28] <hendrixski> ah, that's a new one
[12:29] <hendrixski> so both export GPGKEY and export DEBMAIL, and then debuild -S should do the signing by itself?  and prompt me for the secret passphrase at some point?
[12:29] <crimsun> I'd set the latter.
[12:30] <mshima> it does here.
[12:30] <ajmitch> hello crimsun 
[12:30] <mshima> don't know if I did something else..
[12:31] <crimsun> hello ajmitch 
[12:32] <hendrixski> hhmmm still not working...
[12:32] <hendrixski> oh, i spelled my name differently when I ran dh_make than it appears on my key
[12:32] <mshima> the uploader email must match you gpg email
[12:35] <mshima> I have posted the debdiff at a bug. And now?? I have to set it to confirmed?
[12:38] <crimsun> mshima: which bug?
[12:40] <marseillai> hi
[12:40] <crimsun> (good gosh, the motu list is getting a lot of spam)
[12:40] <marseillai> i'm wondering if someone could take a look at this for a revu : http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5305 ??
[12:40] <marseillai> thanks! :)
[12:42] <mshima> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libsynce/+bug/116626
[12:42] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 116626 in libsynce "WM5 (Windows Mobile 5) support" [Undecided,In progress]  
[12:43] <mshima> I sent the libsynce package
[12:44] <mshima> The others I'm working on
[12:46] <crimsun> correct, set that one to Confirmed and unassign yourself
[12:47] <crimsun> also, are those config.{guess,sub} changes necessary?
[12:49] <mshima> they are upstream changes
[12:50] <mshima> wrong..
[12:51] <crimsun> please ask the Debian maintainer(s) if he is going to update to 0.10.0 soon
[12:52] <mshima> I think they are not necessary
[12:53] <mshima> I will post another diff
[12:53] <mshima> ok
[12:53] <mshima> I will send an email to him
[12:53] <crimsun> also, in this case a debdiff will not suffice, since we need to generate the source package against an entirely new orig.tar.gz
[12:54] <mshima> What do I need to do?
[12:55] <crimsun> in this case, you don't generate a debdiff against 0.9.3-1.  Instead, post the entire new source package.
[12:55] <crimsun> diff.gz + dsc + orig.tar.gz
[12:55] <crimsun> rather, link to them in the bug report
[12:56] <mshima> I should post the dsc, the diff.gz and a link to upstream source. Correct?
[12:57] <crimsun> yes
[12:57] <TheMuso> /c
[12:57] <TheMuso> uuuugh
[12:57] <mshima> thanks
[01:05] <jmg> gir
[01:05] <jmg> .nz archive desynched
[01:09] <LaserJock> alright, MOTU Q&A added to Fridge
[01:11] <ajmitch> LaserJock: congrats on being a fridge editor now :)
[01:11] <jmg> hmm
[01:12] <LaserJock> ajmitch: thanks, I think ;-)
[01:12] <ajmitch> hehe
[01:12] <crimsun> it's worth noting that there are TWO times, both of which should appear in the fridge node.
[01:12] <LaserJock> crimsun: I put both times on
[01:12] <crimsun> LaserJock: in the node, not the calendar.
[01:12] <LaserJock> jmg: as far as they had developers for
[01:13] <LaserJock> crimsun: hmm
[01:13] <crimsun> as in node/998
[01:14] <LaserJock> ok, I created two nodes, one for each time
[01:14] <LaserJock> I can put in, "two sessions at 0:00 UTC and 12:00UTC"
[01:15] <crimsun> ok
[01:15] <crimsun> joejaxx: have you done anything with the newer ndisgtk?  Perhaps looked over https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ndisgtk additionally?
[01:15] <jmg>  a strange world we live in
[01:17] <LaserJock> jmg: sure, it's always been strange :-)
[01:19] <LaserJock> crimsun: ok, check now
[01:20] <crimsun> LaserJock: excellent, thanks.
[01:32] <ajmitch> there seem to have been a few duplicate bugs caused by automatix lately
[01:32] <LaserJock> interesting
[01:32] <mshima> crimsun: Should I subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors to the bug?
[01:33] <crimsun> mshima: if not already subbed, yes.
[01:33] <joejaxx> crimsun: hmm?
[01:33] <crimsun> joejaxx: you're listed as having last touched ndisgtk.
[01:34] <joejaxx> oh
[01:34] <crimsun> joejaxx: yes.  Do you intend to maintain said delta?
[01:35] <ajmitch> you touched it, you keep it
[01:35] <joejaxx> delta?
[01:35] <mshima> no
[01:35] <crimsun> joejaxx: difference from the Debian source package.
[01:35] <joejaxx> ajmitch: i have touched main packages lol
[01:35] <mshima> ok
[01:35] <joejaxx> crimsun: oh ok
[01:50] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: ah, you're back
[01:51] <Fujitsu> LaserJock, that I am, at work.
[01:51] <LaserJock> I was afk when you pong'd
[01:51] <Fujitsu> I guessed that much/.
[01:52] <jmg> :(
[01:52] <jmg> upgrading my vm to gutsy goatowned it
[01:55] <jmg> is there a gutsy cd yet?
[01:55] <RAOF> Don't think so.
[01:56] <LaserJock> jmg: nope
[02:03] <jmg> well, straight dist-upgrade totally owned the vm. 
[02:03] <jmg> it's dropped to initramfs shell.
[02:04] <jmg> how can i test bugs in gutsy if i cant dist-upgrade or install it?
[02:04] <jmg> is there a gutsy vmware image somewhere, then?
[02:04] <RAOF> Not that it's any help, but *my* vm dist-upgraded to gutsy just fine. :-/
[02:05] <TheMuso> jmg: Chroots FTW.
[02:05] <jmg> Mine said something about failed to find disk at /dev/disk/by-id/blah, dropping to initramfs shell.
[02:05] <jmg> TheMuso: not if you are trying to debug a kernel issue.
[02:05] <TheMuso> jmg: aaah
[02:06] <jmg> I really want to fix this bug.
[02:08] <jmg> RAOF: did you dist-upgrade this morning?
[02:08] <RAOF> No, not this morning.
[02:09] <jmg> Bling.
[02:09] <jmg> I'm gonna retry.
[02:34] <LaserJock> what an eventful day
[02:34] <Jucato> :(
[02:35] <crimsun> if you're bored, I'll fork you some alsa bugs.
[02:36] <LaserJock> far from bored
[02:36] <LaserJock> more feeling depressed and "demotivated"
[02:37] <crimsun> aren't you really close to finishing your doctoral degree?
[02:38] <RAOF> That sounds like a good reason to be depressed & "demotivated" :S
[02:38] <crimsun> no, it only gets worse after that.
[02:38] <crimsun> it's like the light at the end of the tunnel is just fallout.
[02:44] <ryanakca> can someone please review http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5314
[02:49] <LaserJock> crimsun: I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel
[02:49] <LaserJock> I'm working on a paper
[02:52] <crimsun> beware, that light is just fallout.
[02:52] <crimsun> and I don't mean it to be depressing :-)
[02:52] <LaserJock> I know
[02:53] <LaserJock> sometimes I see the community I love seemingly imploding, and I can't bear it. And I think, "Why do I do this to myself? Don't I have better things to do?"
[02:53] <LaserJock> a volunteer community with hundreds of people from all over the world
[02:54] <LaserJock> it's a heroic task keeping a ship like that on course
[02:55] <LaserJock> but I press on
[02:55] <LaserJock> we all press on
[02:57] <LaserJock> anyway, sorry for the OT
[02:58] <joejaxx> LaserJock: i wonder why there are some of the changelogs are missing
[02:59] <joejaxx> on c.u.c
[02:59] <LaserJock> hmm, no idea
[03:00] <ajmitch> LaserJock: don't worry, I've distracted myself from ubuntu this last week or so
[03:02] <ajmitch> I think i've got 1 outstanding merge to upload, and a couple more in main to update
[03:02] <ajmitch> and I don't think I've even touched universe merges yet
[03:02] <ajmitch> only main
[03:02] <ajmitch> LaserJock: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10442422
[03:03] <ajmitch> that'll cheer you up a little :)
[03:04] <LaserJock> yeah, it did actually
[03:07] <joejaxx> LaserJock: i just went to look at the changelog for ndisgtk and it is not there
[03:09] <AndyP> ryanakca: E: aoeui source: bad-version-number 1.0~alpha5-0ubuntu1
[03:10] <AndyP> did you get that last time? i don't remember
[03:11] <jmg> second attempt to upgrade vm to gutsy results in fail.
[03:11] <jmg> Does anyone have a valid gutsy virtual machine i can download?
[03:13] <ryanakca> can someone please review http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5314
[03:15] <persia> ryanakca: If someone has time, they'll look.  Please only announce infrequently, as most developers read the scrollback when they have been away, and will take a look then if they have time.
[03:16] <ryanakca> persia: okies
[03:16] <AndyP> ryanakca: did you read my comment ^^
[03:16] <AndyP> i'm not a motu but i'll give my opinions
[03:16] <ryanakca> hmm.
[03:16] <RAOF> He's getting a lot of non-MOTU reviews :)
[03:17] <ryanakca> who was it that told me I should switch to that yesterday?
[03:17] <RAOF> That would be me.
[03:17] <RAOF> I didn't know that was an incorrect version number!
[03:18] <ryanakca> ah, lol.
[03:18] <ryanakca> AndyP: hmmm. What do you suggest I rename the version to?
[03:20] <tonyyarusso> Can you use a tilde?
[03:20] <ryanakca> tonyyarusso: that's what I currently have, except lintian is complaining
[03:21] <ajmitch> of course it's a possibility that you're using an old lintian that doesn't quite grasp ~
[03:21] <ryanakca> 1.0~alpha5-0ubuntu1
[03:21] <ajmitch> since it's a relatively recent addition
[03:21] <tonyyarusso> ryanakca: What does linda say?
[03:21] <ryanakca> ajmitch: ah... so. ignore?
[03:21] <ryanakca> tonyyarusso: zilch
[03:21] <ajmitch> ryanakca: yep, from what I know that version is valid
[03:21] <RAOF> Yay!  I didn't suggest something incorrect!
[03:21] <ryanakca> http://revu.tauware.de/revu1-incoming/aoeui-0705281745/lintian , http://revu.tauware.de/revu1-incoming/aoeui-0705281745/linda
[03:22] <tonyyarusso> ryanakca: I'd be inclined to second ajmitch, but know far less, for whatever that's worth
[03:22] <persia> ryanakca: The lintian and linda on REVU are aging.  Do they report clean when you run them on your local system (or, even better, in a gutsy system or gutsy chroot)?
[03:23] <ajmitch> oh, if you're looking at lintian on REVU, it's very old
[03:23] <AndyP> ajmitch: what version is it running these days? dapper?
[03:24] <ryanakca> persia: nope. no such errors :)
[03:24] <LaserJock> hmm, we should maybe think about backporting some things on tiber
[03:24] <ajmitch> not sure if it was all successfully upgraded to dapper or not
[03:24] <ajmitch> LaserJock: sure, go ahead
[03:24] <ryanakca> hehe. or not :)
[03:25] <LaserJock> lintian should  be pretty easy, right?
[03:25] <ajmitch> of course
[03:25] <ryanakca> ?
[03:25] <persia> ryanakca: If it's clean locally, don't worry about the warnings from REVU.
[03:25] <ryanakca> persia: ok, thanks!
[03:26] <LaserJock> what other packages should be updated on tiber?
[03:26] <ajmitch> ryanakca: it's still running a breezy kernel, due to issues with a driver
[03:26] <ryanakca> cool
[03:26] <LaserJock> I think I hit something the other day but I can't remember what it was
[03:26] <persia> LaserJock: If you're doing lintian, consider linda as well (just to be complete).
[03:27] <LaserJock> sure
[03:27] <LaserJock> but of course linda is perfect
[03:29] <LaserJock> I got started in MOTU with breezy
[03:29] <ryanakca> Yes... and I think I had used Ubuntu 5.10 for a couple weeks, but then switched to CentOS
[03:29] <ajmitch> let him be anathema
[03:29] <LaserJock> heh
[03:31] <ryanakca> @.@
[03:32] <jsmidt> I am trying to convert a package to cdbs.  Everything works perfectly but the build isn't seeing my manpage.  Does it require a special extension with cdbs?  I use texmaker.1.
[03:33] <ryanakca> jsmidt: yep, just a sec
[03:34] <ryanakca> jsmidt: add "DEB_INSTALL_MANPAGES_aoeui := $(CURDIR)/aoeui.1" to your rules...
[03:34] <jsmidt> ryanakca, thanks a lot.
[03:35] <ryanakca> substitute aoeui with texmaker, and $(CURDIR)/aoeui.1 with the path... $(CURDIR)/ being the root directory of the sources...
[03:36] <jsmidt> ryanakca, one last thing, does this need to go in a specific section?  Like install-texmaker::?
[03:36] <ryanakca> jsmidt: nope! I just stick in after my includes :)
[03:36] <jsmidt> thanks agian.
[03:36] <ryanakca> np :)
[03:50] <persia> jsmidt: Just to explain, the DEB_INSTALL_MANPAGES_texmaker :=" is a variable definition that changes the behaviour of the CDBS rules.  Internally, it ends up in the binary-arch and binary-indep rules.
[03:51] <StevenK> Or you could just add 'texmaker.1' to debian/manpages
[03:53] <LaserJock> that's what I was thinking but didn't want to look like an idiot ;-)
[04:00] <LaserJock> hi tritium 
[04:01] <tritium> hi LaserJock 
[04:01] <tritium> Having a nice holiday?
[04:01] <LaserJock> oh decent
[04:01] <tritium> Same here.  Mostly yardwork at mom's.  :)
[04:01] <jsgotangco> heh
[04:01] <ajmitch> hey tritium 
[04:02] <tritium> hey there jsgotangco!
[04:02] <tritium> Hi ajmitch
[04:02] <jsgotangco> hey dude
[04:02] <ajmitch> jsgotangco!
[04:02] <jsgotangco> sup
[04:03] <ajmitch> work..
[04:04] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[04:05] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: still jobless?
[04:06] <jsgotangco> heh that's painful to hear
[04:06] <jsgotangco> but i had a nice interview yesterday and might work
[04:07] <jmg> good luck :)
[04:07] <tritium> Good luck, jsgotangco!
[04:07] <jsgotangco> thanks!
[04:08] <LaserJock> hmm, any recommendations for an email client lighter than Thunderbird that's not mutt?
[04:08] <tritium> I better go clean up...
[04:08] <jsgotangco> slypheed?
[04:08] <tritium> later guys
[04:08] <jsgotangco> later
[04:08] <persia> LaserJock: I've never used thunderbird, but I liked sylpheed during my experimentation with GUI mail clients.
[04:09] <LaserJock> persia: never used ...?!?
[04:09] <LaserJock> insanity ;-)
[04:09] <LaserJock> well, I've got 512MB of RAM on this laptop with a 1GB swap
[04:10] <Hobbsee> morning all
[04:10] <jsgotangco> that's more than enough for sure
[04:10] <persia> LaserJock: No.  Why?  I really didn't like the mail interface in the old netscape tools, and didn't need it.
[04:10] <LaserJock> and I often get hibernation failures because it says there isn't enough swap
[04:10] <Hobbsee> morning all
[04:10] <jsgotangco> hi Hobbsee
[04:10] <persia> LaserJock: How much swap do you use normally?  You want to have enough free swap for all your RAM when you hibernate.
[04:10] <LaserJock> I think it's mostly TB and Firefox that are killing me
[04:11] <Hobbsee> hi spam
[04:11] <LaserJock> right now I'm at:
[04:11] <LaserJock>              total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
[04:11] <LaserJock> Mem:           440        434          5          0          6        161
[04:11] <LaserJock> -/+ buffers/cache:        267        173
[04:11] <LaserJock> Swap:          972        263        709
[04:11] <ajmitch> LaserJock: just use mutt, you really want to :)
[04:11] <persia> Surely 709 > 434.  I don't understand then.  Sorry.
[04:12] <ajmitch> hello Hobbsee 
[04:12] <LaserJock> persia: well, I don't get it either
[04:12] <joejaxx> hello Hobbsee 
[04:12] <Hobbsee> :
[04:12] <Hobbsee> )
[04:12] <LaserJock> but if I have anything more than one FF window with a few tabs open it seems to fail
[04:12] <joejaxx> crimsun: so the delta would be every change from ubuntu1?
[04:13] <RAOF> Morning Hobbsee!
[04:14] <LaserJock> ajmitch: I have mutt ... as a backup
[04:24] <LaserJock> well stink
[04:25] <LaserJock> it's annoying when ./configure throws an error when it can't find something
[04:26] <LaserJock> I'm having gcompris not build with gnuchess support
[04:26] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: close them, then.
[04:26] <LaserJock> but I think I'm going to have to patch the autotools stuff
[04:26] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: these are bugs for work
[04:27] <Hobbsee> awww
[04:27] <AndyP> ok i have good news and bad news about Baby's fretsonfire debian packages... good news is, they build on ubuntu... bad news is, i can't stop playing it!
[04:27] <ajmitch> did an upgrade from sarge->etch, some things changed
[04:28] <AndyP> anyway must get some sleep, good night folks
[04:28] <Fujitsu> AndyP, No, you must keep playing.
[04:29] <AndyP> Fujitsu: it's so tempting :) but it is 3:28am
[04:43] <leonel> motus  good  night !
[04:53] <crimsun> joejaxx: an Ubuntu delta is simply any difference from the corresponding base Debian source package.
[04:57] <joejaxx> what would maintaining a delta involve?
[04:57] <LaserJock> meaning, each release we have to recheck the delta and do a manual merge
[04:57] <joejaxx> hmm
[04:58] <ajmitch> well you'll get practice
[04:59] <LaserJock> anybody know off-hand if epiphany uses less memory than FF?
[04:59] <jsmidt> After the cdbs build I need to remove usr/share/texmaker/COPYING.  What cdbs command in the rules file does this?
[05:16] <ajmitch> LaserJock: I think they're fairly equivalent
[05:16] <ajmitch> epiphany does still seem faster with lots of tabs though
[05:16] <ajmitch> firefox really slows down
[05:16] <ajmitch> at least here, with the extension set I have
[05:18] <crimsun> jsmidt: there's no such cdbs command, but you can exclude it from being installed, or you can simply rm it.
[05:19] <crimsun> I'm a bit fearful of using extensions, because I've had prior negative upgrade experiences with them.
[05:21] <jsmidt> crimsun, thanks
[05:24] <crimsun> hmm, more complaints about democracyplayer?  Are there pieces in main that would help alleviate?
[05:24] <RAOF> No, upstream is broken.
[05:24] <RAOF> As far as I can see.  Broken broken broken!
[05:25] <crimsun> ok, we do seem to have pyrex 0.9.5.1a-1 in.
[05:25] <crimsun> s/in//g
[05:26] <RAOF> They need some unit tests.  There's some code in the release that is syntactically incorrect (and there's a patch on trac to fix it).
[05:28] <ASCIIGirl> hello world! I found this --> "Fixed in RF 4082" closing a bug, can anybody tell me what RF refers to? 
[05:29] <crimsun> bug 70074?
[05:29] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 70074 in rosetta "Add direct link downloads" [Low,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/70074
[05:32] <crimsun> ASCIIGirl: if above, then I'm guessing it's a fix.  Try asking in #launchpad.
[05:32] <crimsun> no idea for what "RF" is an abbreviation.
[05:33] <ASCIIGirl> thanks :)
[05:36] <jsmidt> crimsun, you said I can just rm the file.  Does this have to be in a certain section like install-texmaker:: or can I just put it after the includes?
[05:36] <RAOF> jsmidt: Yeah, it'll need to be in a particular rule.  Let me check my specto package, which does something similar
[05:37] <RAOF> jsmidt: Probably under install/texmaker::
[05:38] <jsmidt> RAOF, thanks
[05:38] <RAOF> You can check the specto source package as a reference, if you like.  That's got those sort of rules.
[05:43] <jsmidt> RAOF, I just asked the admin to update my key in revu, about how long does that take?
[05:44] <RAOF> As in, you pinged them on IRC?  Why not ask them?
[05:44] <RAOF> Shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes if they do it immediately.
[05:44] <crimsun> let me log in to tiber.
[05:45] <crimsun> keyring sync running - should take about 20 mins.
[05:45] <Fujitsu> ASCIIGirl, RF == rocketfuel == the bzr branch that the production system works from.
[05:45] <ASCIIGirl> Fujitsu, oh...(btw, nice name ;)) great! thanks a lot!
[05:46] <jsmidt> how do you ping the admin on irc?
[05:46] <StevenK> Rocket Fuel because it's highly flammable?
[05:47] <crimsun> jsmidt: you're not paying attention...
[05:47] <crimsun> 23:44 < crimsun> let me log in to tiber.
[05:47] <crimsun> 23:45 < crimsun> keyring sync running - should take about 20 mins.
[05:47] <jsmidt> crimsun, sorry
[05:48] <Fujitsu> Learnt quite a bit from that.
[05:54] <ajmitch> jsmidt: 'admin' is just a mail alias that reaches a few of us
[05:56] <jsmidt> ajmitch, okay thanks.  
[05:57] <ajmitch> quite a few MOTUs are capable of resyncing the keyring now, thankfully
[05:57] <ajmitch> plus it does update nightly
[05:58] <StevenK> I thought he just did.
[05:58] <LaserJock> well, I just did one a day or two ago
[05:58] <ajmitch> LaserJock: I know, but you need to give us more
[05:59] <LaserJock> fine
[05:59] <StevenK> LaserJock: Do a Behind MOTU on ajmitch, that'll teach him.
[05:59] <LaserJock> hmm, I think that must be what he's hinting at
[05:59] <ajmitch> nah, I was going to volunteer crimsun or Hobbsee 
[05:59] <LaserJock> he's miffed I haven't interviewed him yet
[05:59] <superm1> haha
[06:00] <ajmitch> LaserJock: no, because I'd take about 2 months to reply
[06:00] <joejaxx> lol
[06:00] <Hobbsee> noooo!
[06:01] <crimsun> I'm no longer an MOTU, remember?
[06:01] <crimsun> :-)
[06:01] <joejaxx> LaserJock: do one on crimsun :P
[06:01] <ajmitch> crimsun: can I use that defense?
[06:01] <crimsun> ajmitch: psht.
[06:02] <Hobbsee> crimsun: you've left too, have you?
[06:02] <ajmitch> crimsun: keybuk kicked you back into motu, didn't he?
[06:03] <crimsun> something like that
[06:03] <ajmitch> https://launchpad.net/~motu <-- you even appear as 'recently approved'
[06:03] <crimsun> drat.  foiled!
[06:03] <StevenK> Hrm. I wonder if \sh had any parting words.
[06:04] <Hobbsee> he did
[06:04] <Hobbsee> they're in the logs, and they're on planet - see sharm's psot link
[06:04] <crimsun> err, he's gone again?
[06:04] <Hobbsee> yes
[06:05] <ajmitch> crimsun: yep, left every team on launchpad this time
[06:05] <ajmitch> says he's not coming back
[06:06] <StevenK> He took a break, and came back when I applied for MOTU.
[06:06] <StevenK> So I missed why he took a break.
[06:08] <ajmitch> I can't recall why initially
[06:08] <LaserJock> he was broke
[06:08] <LaserJock> and had no internet
[06:08] <ajmitch> though why that required him to deactivate himself from teams is beyond me
[06:09] <StevenK> Attention seeking, much?
[06:09] <LaserJock> 'cause that's what he does
[06:09] <StevenK> Who knows.
[06:09] <Hobbsee> oh that's right
[06:09] <Hobbsee> i remember the first break now
[06:10] <ajmitch> it's in the past now
[06:10] <LaserJock> yes
[06:10] <LaserJock> and now \sh is in the past now :/
[06:10] <ajmitch> sadly
[06:11] <crimsun> I thought he just formed a wine team or something.
[06:11] <ajmitch> he did
[06:11] <crimsun> my lack of reading planet.uc is showing
[06:12] <ajmitch> crimsun: you don't miss much, usually
[06:14] <elkbuntu> annoyingly, but not unsurprisingly, everyone is linking it to my letter last week, which is basically irrelevent in this case.
[06:15] <StevenK> "Oooh, look, the evil Melissa started it all!"
[06:15] <StevenK> Sigh.
[06:15] <elkbuntu> s/unsurprisingly/surprisingly/
[06:15] <elkbuntu> it was a sex toy for effs sake
[06:16] <jmg> someone say sex toy?
[06:16] <StevenK> Oh geez.
[06:17] <ajmitch> elkbuntu: got much mail over it?
[06:18] <elkbuntu> ajmitch, a few new comments on my blog, and a supportive 'i wish i had the guts to speak up' email
[06:18] <ajmitch> not too bad then
[06:19] <crimsun> psht, and to think I've only been engrossed by the black helicopter theories on "opendns vs. dell+google"
[06:20] <LaserJock> hehe
[06:20] <StevenK> crimsun: There are no black helicopters. </jedi>
[06:21] <nixternal> did someone say black helicopters
[06:21] <jmg> unmarked helicopters hovering
[06:21] <StevenK> nixternal: No, so you blew it up for nothing.
[06:22] <jmg> they said it was just a weather baloon
[06:24] <nixternal> ya, idiot me
[06:40] <jsmidt> I made a bad upload to revu.  I am trying to use dcut to remove it.  I typed: dcut -m josephsmidt@gmail.com revu rm texmaker_1.5-1ubuntu2.dsc.  This doesn't seem to be working.  Any suggestion how to fix it?
[06:40] <ajmitch> jsmidt: yes, let one of us remove it
[06:40] <jsmidt> okay
[06:41] <ajmitch> removed
[06:41] <jsmidt> thanks
[06:42] <LaserJock> darn
[06:43] <jussi01> hello all
[06:47] <jussi01> and everyones dead... sad...
[06:47] <ajmitch> LaserJock: darn?
[06:48] <ajmitch> jussi01: not dead, just sleeping
[06:49] <jussi01> ajmitch: heh... are you in the US? what time is it there?
[06:49] <superm1> ajmitch, would you be up for a revu?
[06:50] <ajmitch> in NZ
[06:50] <ajmitch> superm1: can't at the moment, sorry
[06:50] <superm1> mkay
[06:51] <LaserJock> ajmitch: well, gcompris depends on gnuchess, but gnome-games now has a conflicts/replaces on gnuchess
[06:52] <LaserJock> so essentially I have to rip out the gnuchess stuff from gcompris
[06:52] <jussi01> superm1: nice interview on planet!
[06:52] <superm1> Thanks jussi01 
[06:53] <jussi01> :)
[06:53] <superm1> i've been traveling all weekend (and still am) and didnt get to hear much of impressions
[06:54] <jussi01> i downloaded the alpha of mythbuntu the other day...
[06:55] <jussi01> nice pece of work, unfortunately I dont have any more space on my measly little 40gb hdd...
[06:56] <superm1> ah. jussi01
[06:56] <superm1> there are some big changes that will be coming in within the next week hopefully for it regarding the installer
[06:57] <jussi01> superm1: excellent. 
[06:59] <jsmidt> ajmitch, sorry to be such a problem tonight.  The ubuntu packaging website says it should take revu 5 minutes to process the upload and if it doesn't show to tell admin.  I just thought I would say the package hasn't shown up.
[07:00] <jussi01> jsmidt: are you on the revu keyring?
[07:00] <jsmidt> Good question. crimsun said he updated the list.  I just assumed I was on it now.
[07:01] <jussi01> hmm... well I suppose its a question for ajmitch or LaserJock then....
[07:03] <LaserJock> jsmidt: gimme a sec, what package is it?
[07:03] <jsmidt> LaserJock,  texmaker
[07:05] <ajmitch> pg: Signature made Mon 28 May 2007 11:18:42 PM EDT using DSA key ID 499C9944
[07:05] <LaserJock> jsmidt: did you make sure to upload a source.changes
[07:05] <ajmitch> gpg: Can't check signature: public key not found
[07:05] <ajmitch> you are in the launchpad group, right?
[07:06] <ajmitch> and you have your gpg key on launchpad?
[07:06] <ajmitch> hm, joined 1 hour ago
[07:06] <jsmidt> ajmitch, yes. LaserJock I uploaded .changes not source.changes.  If I did it wrong I can try again.
[07:07] <ajmitch> you were in the team before getting the keyring synced?
[07:07] <ajmitch> updating it again
[07:07] <jsmidt> It happened like 5 minutes apart so I'm not sure.  I think so though since I tried to follow the manual.
[07:09] <jsmidt> LaserJock, sorry I'm used to mentors.debian.net.  I don't upload source.changes there just .changes.
[07:10] <LaserJock> np, once we get the get keyring synced and your old upload cleared out of there you can reupload with the source.changes
[07:10] <jsmidt> okay, thanks
[07:11] <ajmitch> no need to clear the old upload or reupload
[07:11] <LaserJock> hmm, ok
[07:11] <jsmidt> okay
[07:12] <ajmitch> just move the source.changes from the rejected directory back into incoming
[07:24] <LaserJock> ajmitch: did you move it or were you wanting me to do it?
[07:43] <imbrandon> moins all
[07:43] <RAOF> moin moin imbrandon 
[07:44] <superm1> well as long as you dont take this meaning, maybe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moin_moin
[07:45] <LaserJock> I'm sure you can put imbrandon on a wiki
[07:46] <RAOF> Mmm, delicious.
[07:46] <imbrandon> lol
[07:46] <imbrandon> LaserJock, i'm on a few wiki's
[07:46] <imbrandon> :)
[07:47] <LongPointyStick> world blown up yet?
[07:51] <imbrandon> browses this "python for dummies" book on his desk
[07:51] <imbrandon> wonder where this came from
[07:51] <RAOF> Nah, although at some point I'm gonna have to learn how to make democracyplayer properly link against firefox.
[07:51] <imbrandon> firefox is a library now ?
[07:51] <imbrandon> heh
[07:51] <RAOF> Should I ever succeed, armageddon will be nigh.
[07:52] <RAOF> Ok, libgtkmozembed.so :P
[07:52] <RAOF> It's in the firefox package, though.
[07:55] <imbrandon> :)
[07:55] <LaserJock> LongPointyStick: looks like you're getting some traffic :-)
[07:59] <ajmitch> argh, there's now texmaker_1.5-1ubuntu2_i386.changes
[07:59] <ajmitch> bad
[08:00] <LaserJock> that's what I was talking about
[08:00] <LongPointyStick> LaserJock: so it seems.
[08:00] <jsmidt> ajmitch, LaserJock do you need me to reupload?
[08:00] <ajmitch> yes, I will now
[08:01] <LaserJock> LongPointyStick: I'm glad to see you have no right to feel safe, only a right to free speech ;-)
[08:01] <LongPointyStick> heh
[08:01] <LongPointyStick> yes
[08:01] <ajmitch> make sure you *only* upload a source.changes
[08:01] <LongPointyStick> i saw that, and just stopped reading
[08:02] <LongPointyStick> "i'm sorry, by my rule of free speech, i now say that feeling safe is more important, so screw you.  *gunshot*"
[08:02] <LongPointyStick> type idea.
[08:02] <ajmitch> sigh
[08:03] <crimsun> wait, I'm missing drama?
[08:03] <LaserJock> heh
[08:03] <jsmidt> ajmitch, could you clear out the .dsc so I can upload?
[08:04] <ajmitch> sorry, it was waiting for my password
[08:04] <LongPointyStick> crimsun: of course!  you cant miss drama!
[08:04] <ajmitch> cleared again
[08:04] <ajmitch> crimsun: somewhere, yes
[08:05] <jsmidt> Aright ajmitch LaserJock hopefully this time I did it right. :)
[08:08] <crimsun> hmm, I didn't know Mario was in rchland
[08:08] <crimsun> I wonder which building he's in
[08:14] <LaserJock> I find it interesting that Behind MOTU is more popular than my blog
[08:14] <LaserJock> so people must find everybody else in MOTU more interesting than me ;-)
[08:14] <crimsun> why else do you think I find blogging useless?
[08:15] <crimsun> [useless for me, not useless for others] 
[08:15] <ajmitch> I never have anything to write about, so why inflict my ramblings on others?
[08:15] <LongPointyStick> LaserJock: now you just need to do another behnid MOTU
[08:15] <LongPointyStick> ajmitch: is volunteering
[08:15] <jsmidt> Thanks again everyone.  See you later.
[08:15] <imbrandon> crimsun, fortunatelyheh
[08:15] <imbrandon> err
[08:16] <ajmitch> LongPointyStick: I alreday told him I'd take > 2 months to answer any questions
[08:16] <LongPointyStick> hehe
[08:16] <LongPointyStick> could be fun
[08:16] <imbrandon> lol
[08:16] <LongPointyStick> or imbrandon coudl
[08:16] <LaserJock> let's see, if I send it to him know ...
[08:16] <imbrandon> errr wha?!
[08:16] <ajmitch> LaserJock: *at least*
[08:17] <crimsun> it could be a christmas present - ajmitch's behindmotu responses!
[08:17] <ajmitch> haha
[08:17] <imbrandon> hhahah
[08:17] <LongPointyStick> hehe
[08:17] <LaserJock> I could put ajmitch on Behind MOTU by July or August
[08:17] <LaserJock> hmm, true
[08:17] <ajmitch> crimsun: he could interview nixternal for behindVista
[08:17] <imbrandon> bwhahaha classic
[08:17] <LaserJock> ouch
[08:18] <imbrandon> i thought it was funny that Ian Murdock runs XP for his "main" desktop
[08:18] <imbrandon> be he has semi good reason
[08:18] <ajmitch> he does?
[08:18] <imbrandon> yea
[08:19] <imbrandon> lemme find the interview
[08:19] <imbrandon> and screenshot
[08:19] <imbrandon> it was in a magasine i have so it might not be online
[08:21] <imbrandon> hrm i might have to dig the magazine out of the car and see if there is a url
[08:21] <imbrandon> google isnt helping
[08:22] <imbrandon> but the thing was his main desktop was windows XP, his ibm laptop was ubuntu and then he had "other" linux distros in VM's on the windows XP box
[08:22] <imbrandon> i was like WOW
[08:23] <LaserJock> why wouldn't he have XP in a VM?
[08:23] <imbrandon> he said something to the effect of "i get to know the enimy better if i use it everyday"
[08:23] <imbrandon> err
[08:23] <imbrandon> spelling much better
[08:24] <imbrandon> brb i'ma grab the mag out of the car, its bugging me now
[08:25] <ajmitch> heh
[08:27] <jussi01> or advocate please god....
[08:43] <Fujitsu> LongPointyStick: Why not?
[08:43] <LongPointyStick> Fujitsu: i'm at uni, doign opto stuff
[08:43] <Fujitsu> Why is this opto stuff not on GNU/Linux?
[08:45] <jussi01> ajmitch: Ive been haggling with motus over this... but it was decided python all was the way to go...
[08:45] <LongPointyStick> hehe
[08:46] <imbrandon> grrr i found the damn cover, but i cant find the stuff inside http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/covers/92-big.jpg
[08:48] <ajmitch> hm, I see that distutils is back in the main package, not in the -dev
[08:50] <StevenK_> Oh sigh, half way through the auth phase, and the wireless AP kicks me off.
[08:52] <imbrandon> nice
[08:53] <StevenK_> Yeah, well. Half the reason this wireless network sucks so hard is it uses TunnelGuard, and then runs a Nortel VPN client over that.
[08:53] <StevenK_> And suprise, suprise, the Nortel VPN client is a complete piece of crap.
[08:55] <StevenK_> The other half of the suckiness is that they are using about half the number of APs they should be, so the signal quality is crap, and students can flood others off.
[08:55] <imbrandon> wow are you putting government trade secrets or something over that 
[08:55] <StevenK_> I use it to run ssh. :-)
[08:55] <StevenK_> Although, not at the moment, since I've been unable to connect all afternoon.
[08:56] <crimsun> StevenK_: it could always be worse.  Our school blocks outgoing tcp & udp 53 for all but the primary NS.
[08:56] <StevenK_> Hrm. I think ours does the same thing.
[08:56] <crimsun> granted this is a case of incompetence, but whatever...
[08:57] <StevenK_> I think this is a case of over-draconian policy, which makes it much much harder to fix.
[09:00] <imbrandon> i dunno, teaching someone thats unwilling to listen let alone learn is very hard
[09:01] <imbrandon> but then again high school teachers in the USA do it everyday ( somewhat )
[09:01] <persia> imbrandon: If you really want to, make it a game, or make understanding a requirement for something they want (and have infinite patience).
[09:02] <imbrandon> :)
[09:02] <StevenK_> I don't mind learning, or having to be taught. 
[09:03] <imbrandon> yea i domt mean you , i ment the ones at crimsun's uni that dont know how to run a network
[09:03] <StevenK_> Ah.
[09:03] <StevenK_> Gasp! TunnelGuard is now running on my laptop.
[09:04] <StevenK_> Which immeadiately disconnects.
[09:04] <StevenK_> Bastard.
[09:04] <Fujitsu> Hah.
[09:04] <jussi01> lol
[09:04] <crimsun> it was pretty bad for a while.  We used to have dns outages consistently, so I openvpn'd through imbrandon's home machine to get name resolution.  Major suck.
[09:04] <StevenK_> Heh
[09:05] <Fujitsu> I admin the network at school and work, so there're no problems there :P
[09:06] <StevenK_> Oooh, the VPN connection managed to stay connected for a whole 30 seconds that time.
[09:06] <imbrandon> crimsun, oh wow, was that what you were using it for ? heh
[09:06] <crimsun> yep.
[09:07] <StevenK_> crimsun: Heh, only name resolution?
[09:07] <crimsun> StevenK_: well, it became everything for a spell
[09:07] <crimsun> jussi01: I think at least one person was looking at it
[09:08] <StevenK_> Hrm. And then, IE crashes.
[09:08] <jussi01> crimsun: ok... :D
[09:08] <jussi01> StevenK_: thats nothing new
[09:08] <jussi01> :D
[09:08] <StevenK_> I am becoming periously close to visiting the ITD offices with a large, blunt object.
[09:09] <StevenK_> Actually, what I need is a way to ssh out from the wired network.
[09:09] <Fujitsu> Tunnel through DNS.
[09:09] <jussi01> hello persia
[09:09] <persia> Hello jussi01
[09:10] <StevenK_> Fujitsu: Which requires a client on the machines. Which neatly run Windows.
[09:10] <Fujitsu> Ah.
[09:10] <Fujitsu> Ahahaha.
[09:10] <LongPointyStick> StevenK_: usb stick?
[09:10] <Fujitsu> Ahahahahahaha.
[09:10] <Fujitsu> Windows.
[09:10] <Fujitsu> Hahahaha
[09:10] <StevenK_> If I recall correctly, the wired networks will only hand out DHCP leases to certain MAC addresses, too.
[09:11] <LongPointyStick> awww
[09:11] <LongPointyStick> Fujitsu: yes, sometimes we have to use it
[09:11] <Fujitsu> Faking a MAC isn't hard.
[09:11] <Fujitsu> LongPointyStick: I'm quite happy not using it.
[09:11] <Fujitsu> Ever.
[09:11] <LongPointyStick> heh
[09:11] <LongPointyStick> too bad if you do science
[09:11] <Fujitsu> Bsh.
[09:11] <Fujitsu> *Bah
[09:11] <LongPointyStick> still, there is putty installed by default on these.
[09:12] <StevenK_> Of course, but it all adds up to "Do I want to spend an hour trying to get out, or just do what I have to do and go home"
[09:12] <LongPointyStick> and they dnot stop USB disks from working
[09:12] <persia> StevenK: You can spoof the MAC.  If you're just port-filtered (not proxied), you can usually hit an ssh server running on port 53 somewhere else.  In the worst case, use an IRC bot on some useless channel to pass commands :)
[09:12] <LongPointyStick> StevenK_: that's true :P
[09:12] <StevenK_> persia: Do you want to help me test? :-)
[09:13] <StevenK_> Ah.
[09:13] <imbrandon> StevenK_, want me to turn ssh on aurora on 53 along with 22 ?
[09:13] <StevenK_> imbrandon: Sure.
[09:13] <imbrandon> k one sec
[09:14] <StevenK_> Although, RTT to the states and then back might hurt. :-)
[09:14] <StevenK_> Ah hah, I just had an idea
[09:14] <persia> StevenK: It'll just be reminiscient of using a modem :)
[09:14] <sacater> imbrandon: are you able to vouch for me in #ubuntu-meeting at 21:00 UTC?
[09:14] <StevenK_> gluck.debian.org has a sshd running on port 443.
[09:14] <sacater> imbrandon: im re-applying for mem ership
[09:14] <imbrandon> StevenK_, done
[09:14] <imbrandon> should be listening on 53 and 22
[09:14] <StevenK_> imbrandon: Just trying gluck.debian.org first
[09:15] <StevenK_> Oooh
[09:15] <persia> Well known ports are amusingly open :)
[09:16] <imbrandon> sacater, umm 2100 , thats umm 1600 here ?
[09:16] <Fujitsu> StevenK_: It's open?
[09:16] <imbrandon> i /might/ be able to
[09:16] <sacater> imbrandon: okies
[09:16] <imbrandon> i'm normaly asleep then
[09:16] <imbrandon> but i'll try to make it
[09:16] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Apparently so.
[09:17] <Fujitsu> Nice lag, I suppose.
[09:17] <StevenK> Quite.
[09:17] <StevenK> Roughly 2 seconds, give or take.
[09:17] <Fujitsu> I've got one running on 443 in Melbourne, 4Mbps symmetric, if you want something faster.
[09:17] <crimsun> See if you can type an entire paragraph before it all appears in your term.
[09:18] <Fujitsu> crimsun, heh.
[09:18] <imbrandon> crimsun, heheh
[09:18] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Now that would be cool.
[09:18] <jussi01> gah, f'**''''' konqueror
[09:18] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: that'd almost be usable for me
[09:19] <StevenK> And what, Debian oldstable?
[09:19] <RAOF> Suse something or other, I think.
[09:20] <jussi01> RAOF: why doesnt the fecker save things instead of trying to open them...
[09:20] <crimsun> pfft. I know some machines at Argonne Nat'l Lab still running KDE 2.2x
[09:20] <RAOF> Suse 9.2
[09:20] <RAOF> jussi01: Because it's frikkin' KDE.  You can't expect it to work like you want it to :P
[09:21] <jussi01> RAOF: pffft...
[09:21] <imbrandon> RAOF, dont make be get hobbsee's stick after you
[09:22] <jussi01> hehe
[09:22] <RAOF> Don't worry, this version of xchat from 2004 is unable to properly render Hobbsee's stick of doom.  I'm immune!
[09:23] <StevenK> Heh
[09:23] <jussi01> lol
[09:23] <ajmitch> it's harmless anyway
[09:23] <imbrandon> irssi from 2007 dosent render it properly either :)
[09:24] <RAOF> And my home box that I'd usually by sshing into to run irssi is currently without internet, due to the move
[09:24] <imbrandon> the icons ? or the theme? the icons are non-free but you can get them from everaldo
[09:25] <imbrandon> the theme probably from freespire ftp
[09:25] <jussi01> search even
[09:26] <StevenK> RAOF: How is the move going?
[09:26] <RAOF> It's done, pretty much.
[09:26] <imbrandon> jussi01, http://www.everaldo.com/crystal.html   , Crystal Clear is the icon theme {Lin,Free}spire uses
[09:26] <StevenK> Except for intraweb?
[09:27] <RAOF> Yeah.
[09:27] <RAOF> Well, and fridge, and washing machine, and microwave, and bookcases, and wardrobe, and...
[09:27] <StevenK> Hahah
[09:27] <imbrandon> lol
[09:27] <StevenK> RAOF: Waiting for the movers, or what?
[09:27] <jussi01> imbrandon: thanks :d. Imparticularly after the window decorations/theme stuff... :D
[09:27] <RAOF> So, perhaps a more accurate description would be "All our stuff has been moved from our old flat in Rose Bay"
[09:28] <StevenK> Hrm. Kensington is a little better.
[09:28] <RAOF> And we've unpacked pretty much everything that isn't books
[09:28] <RAOF> Kensington is *very much* better if you're trying to get to UNSW :)
[09:28] <persia> jussi01: Another alternative would be to enable the freespire deb-src repositories, and use apt-cache to search for a theme.
[09:29] <StevenK> RAOF: Heh
[09:29] <jussi01> persia: thats a good idea...
[09:29] <RAOF> But I still need to get telstra to actually connect the phone in my name, then move the ADSL to our new place.
[09:29] <StevenK> Ooh, that could take weeks.
[09:29] <imbrandon> weeks!?!
[09:30] <imbrandon> wow
[09:30] <RAOF> Then I might ask imbrandon what would be required on my box to add it to the ubuntuwire build servers :)
[09:30] <imbrandon> RAOF, physical access to the rack :)
[09:30] <StevenK> Heh
[09:31] <RAOF> imbrandon: Ah, that might be somewhat difficult :)
[09:31] <imbrandon> :)
[09:31] <imbrandon> yea i need to get off my bum and finish out the buildd's i have most all arches now
[09:31] <RAOF> Maybe I should just scrape launchpad for everyone's SSH key and add them.
[09:31] <persia> imbrandon: You're getting ia64?
[09:31] <imbrandon> just been busy with my google thing and ubuntustudio.org
[09:32] <StevenK> RAOF: imbrandon has a script.
[09:32] <imbrandon> persia, not soon
[09:32] <imbrandon> RAOF, i ahve a amd64 buildd now
[09:32] <StevenK> Ah, purely selfish reasons. 
[09:32] <RAOF> Wooohooo!
[09:32] <StevenK> imbrandon: How fast?
[09:32] <imbrandon> dual core 3ghz 1 gig ram
[09:33] <imbrandon> pern-d 930
[09:33] <crimsun> jussi01: it's open in my browser, but I keep getting interrupted by alsa support requests.
[09:33] <imbrandon> pent*
[09:33] <jussi01> crimsun: hehe, ok then :D
[09:33] <StevenK> imbrandon: Right. I hate you.
[09:33] <RAOF> Ah, well.  Non-MOTU's are always welcome to ask for ssh access to my amd64 box, which isn't as fast as imbrandon's :)
[09:35] <StevenK> My amd64 is 3GHz, but only single core.
[09:35] <imbrandon> RAOF, carefull about security, its hard enough just limiting it to -motu and -core-dev , but anyhow if you want i can provide you with the script we use for accounts , its gpl'd
[09:35] <imbrandon> StevenK, thats what i did upgraded my home workstation to a core2 and donated the pent-d 930 to the buildd's
[09:36] <StevenK> Ah.
[09:36] <RAOF> Yeah, I probably need to restrict it a bit more if I'm going to be open to all :)
[09:36] <imbrandon> brb smoke break, lemme know  RAOF if you want that script
[09:36] <StevenK> I'm just unsure if a Core 2 Duo will work in my mainboard.
[09:37] <RAOF> imbrandon: Nah, I'll just be an "on demand" buildd :)
[09:37] <StevenK> And I'd want to be sure if I'm going to fork out $400 for a processor.
[09:37] <imbrandon> StevenK, i got a mobo/cpu combo for under $300
[09:37] <imbrandon> barely under but under
[09:37] <imbrandon> anyhow really smoke break brb
[09:38] <StevenK> Considering I bought the machine last year I don't want to replace it.
[09:40] <lifeless> is there xen on em64t yet ?
[09:41] <RAOF> aptitude thinks so
[09:42] <RAOF> And Sid runs wonderfully in my kvm :)
[09:44] <imbrandon> lifeless, yea afaik zul got it working
[09:44] <imbrandon> StevenK, old computers never die, they just get repourpsed
[09:48] <TheMuso> imbrandon: When is the amd64 box due to go live?
[09:48] <imbrandon> in a few minutes
[09:48] <TheMuso> Sweet.
[09:48] <imbrandon> twas what i'm working on tonight
[09:49] <jussi01> someone say a cool game in the repos.... im bored...
[09:49] <imbrandon> mmmm emdebian pbuilders 
[09:49] <StevenK> jussi01: blobwars
[09:49] <imbrandon> jussi01, trem
[09:49] <jussi01> imbrandon: i have trem... just no one to play with...
[09:50] <jussi01> StevenK: whats blobwars?
[09:50] <persia> jussi01: Really fun.  Install it :)
[09:50] <StevenK> Frets on Fire, if you don't mind building it for Feisty from Sid.
[09:50] <TheMuso> c/
[09:50] <TheMuso> ug typing
[09:51] <jussi01> persia: :D I should be working on genpo...but no, im procrastinating...
[09:51] <StevenK> persia: I'm stuck on one level, so I've been ignoring it. :-)
[09:52] <persia> StevenK: I know how that is :)
[09:52] <StevenK> Heh
[09:52] <persia> jussi01: No worries.  It needs licensing coordination anyway.
[09:52] <jussi01> astro and quantum physics lol
[09:52] <jussi01> persia: what?
[09:53] <persia> jussi01: genpo
[09:53] <jussi01> persia: no...licensing coordination...what?
[09:53] <imbrandon> i've been meaning to try FoF, i love Guitar Hero
[09:56] <persia> jussi01: genpo claims to be "Free Open Source" software, but doesn't ship with a license, and doesn't have the necessary headers in all the source files.
[10:00] <persia> jussi01: It's not that bad.  I suspect that if you tell the author that you'll be getting it into Ubuntu, they'll be happy to fix it.  From the looks of it, it's supposed to be GPL.
[10:01] <jussi01> persia: ok :D
[10:07] <crimsun> that was cool. User reports bug, fixed and submitted upstream within 16 minutes.
[10:07] <StevenK> Woot.
[10:08] <crimsun> ah, the powah of F/LOSS.
[10:08] <jussi01> nice
[10:08] <StevenK> crimsun: Ah, ALSA or non ALSA?
[10:10] <highvoltage> 9/win 11
[10:10] <crimsun> ALSA :-)
[10:10] <StevenK> Heh
[10:10] <crimsun> it's moments like that that make me keep going
[10:10] <StevenK> That isn't music, it's the sound of computed gotos!
[10:10] <crimsun> heheh
[10:31] <dholbach> hello
[10:31] <persia> Good day dholbach
[10:32] <dholbach> hey persia
[10:32] <imbrandon> heya dholbach 
[10:33] <dholbach> hey imbrandon
[10:52] <Jucato> it ihahah
[10:52] <Jucato> er sorry :/
[11:05] <mruiz> ping dholbach 
[11:05] <dholbach> mruiz: ok, what about the nautilus-image-converter merge?
[11:09] <mruiz> first of all, what's its difficulty ?  :-)
[11:10] <dholbach> that depends on what you know about packaging, gnome stuff, etc etc
[11:11] <mruiz> I read some changes, and many of them are only about "order"
[11:11] <dholbach> right
[11:12] <dholbach> we try to keep the delta between debian and ubuntu low. if we have fixes or things we improve in our packages, we keep them in the merged package
[11:12] <dholbach> if there's nothing worth keeping, we do a sync
[11:15] <mruiz> then? What's the next step ?
[11:17] <dholbach> you either send me the merged package (a diff from the debian package), so I can review it (or you tell me that we can sync it, and I'll review it too)
[11:18] <mruiz> Daniel, sorry but I'm confused about merge and sync
[11:19] <dholbach> syncing means: we drop all our changes and use the debian source package
[11:20] <dholbach> merging means: combining the efforts that both the debian and the ubuntu maintainer made
[11:20] <stgraber> morning
[11:20] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/Merging-and-Syncing
[11:20] <dholbach> hi stgraber
[11:20] <geser> the next step would be to check what Ubuntu changes are there currently and check if they are still needed
[11:22] <mruiz> thanks dholbach , geser 
[11:25] <mruiz> geser, How can I do it ? (to know about Ubuntu changes)
[11:26] <dholbach> persia: maybe we should have an example easy merge in the recipe section too - what do you think?
[11:26] <mruiz> dholbach, I think so!
[11:26] <persia> dholbach: I think we just need to clean up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Merging to point to using MoM (or DaD) and the like, and bring it up to date.  Also, there should be a guide to the MOTU Namespace - I don't even know how to start cleaning it up :)
[11:27] <persia> (oh, and add extra stuff from the School session)
[11:27] <dholbach> persia: definitely, both
[11:27] <mruiz> dholbach, Why don't we try with an easy merge ?
[11:27] <dholbach> persia: i'll try to wrap my head around the wiki motu thing
[11:28] <dholbach> persia: up until now we should maybe treat pages with the motu header as "ok, both information and location"
[11:28] <persia> dholbach: Thanks.  I'm happy to help with drafting, but I don't want to impose my ideas on Namespace (except to exise "Hopeful").  Any issues if I #REDIRECT GettingStarted?
[11:28] <dholbach> mruiz: I don't think this one is too hard, but if you want another one, sure - pick another one
[11:29] <dholbach> persia: no, sounds good
[11:29] <persia> dholbach: That's a good guideline, but I think we need some docs to feed MOTU wiki contributors.
[11:29] <imbrandon> bah
[11:29] <dholbach> persia: you rock
[11:30] <mruiz> dholbach, let's move to another merge!
[11:30] <mruiz> (or sync)
[11:30] <dholbach> mruiz: sure, pick another one
[11:33] <persia> jussi01:someone already said they were looking at it.  Expect comments as soon as they have enough time to commit them.
[11:34] <jussi01> persia: ok... :D
[11:38] <mruiz> ping dholbach 
[11:39] <dholbach> mruiz: I'm still here
[11:39] <mruiz> :)
[11:40] <geser> mruiz: you can fetch a patch with Ubuntu changes from patches.ubuntu.com
[11:53] <mruiz> geser, dholbach : what'a about https://patches.ubuntu.com/h/hostname/hostname_2.93build1.patch ?
[11:53] <geser> as build1 suggest it's only a rebuild without changes
[11:54] <dholbach> we should have that information at https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/basic-scratch.html#id2577623
[11:54] <dholbach> or at least at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/FAQ
[11:55] <geser> mruiz: the package can be synced once a new Debian package is available
[11:56] <dholbach> will be synced automatically even
[11:57] <mruiz> ok
[11:57] <geser> mruiz: patches.ubuntu.com contains all the Ubuntu delta not only for packages need merging
[11:57] <geser> so the best approach would be to pick a package which needs merging and look then at the current Ubuntu delta
[12:00] <mruiz> From there: http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html or http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe-manual.html ?
[12:00] <geser> the first, the second need more attention when merging
[12:02] <geser> if you are looking for an easy one for the start, look at mod-bt
[12:02] <mruiz> geser, why these merges are in red ?
[12:04] <geser> mruiz: good questions, they were a long time green. the color indicates the priority of the package
[12:04] <mruiz> yes, during last week they were green!
[12:04] <highvoltage> kontact
[12:05] <highvoltage> sorry, wrong keyboard :)
[12:05] <mruiz> :)
[12:08] <imbrandon> kvm's ftw
[12:08] <imbrandon> :)
[12:11] <mruiz> geser, dholbach: let's merge!
[12:15] <geser> mruiz: which one did you pick?
[12:16] <mruiz> geser, mod-bt ;-)
[12:18] <geser> have you grabbed it already from merges.ubuntu.com (MoM)?
[12:18] <mruiz> no, how can I do it ?
[12:19] <imbrandon> Hobbsee!
[12:19] <geser> Hi Hobbsee
[12:19] <Fujitsu> Hi Hobbsee.
[12:20] <geser> mruiz: get http://merges.ubuntu.com/grab-merge.sh and use it in an empty dir: /path/to/grab-merge.sh mod-bt
[12:20] <imbrandon> mruiz, you can get http://merges.ubuntu.com/grab-merge.sh and place it in your /usr/local/bin and chmod +x it , then grab-merge.sh mod-bt
[12:20] <imbrandon> in an empty dir
[12:20] <mruiz> thanks imbrandon! 
[12:20] <imbrandon> geser, beat me to it :)
[12:21] <Hobbsee> imbrandon!!
[12:22] <Hobbsee> heya people
[12:22] <imbrandon> brb smoke break
[12:27] <mruiz> geser, done!
[12:28] <geser> you should also got a REPORT that debian/control and debian/rules have a conflict after merge (the C before them)
[12:28] <mruiz> yes
[12:29] <geser> the next step would be to resolve this conflicts
[12:29] <geser> lets' take debian/control first
[12:29] <geser> open it in an editor
[12:30] <mruiz> ok
[12:30] <geser> you should find there a block beginning with <<<<<< and ending with >>>>>>
[12:30] <geser> that's the conflict
[12:31] <mruiz> php5-cli !
[12:31] <geser> [12:31] <geser> we keep the Debian changes, so we remove the <<<<<, [12:32] <mruiz> done!
[12:33] <geser> next is the conflict in debian/rules
[12:33] <mruiz> the same process: preserve Debian changes? 
[12:34] <geser> yes
[12:34] <mruiz> done!
[12:35] <geser> the next step would be to write the changelog entry
[12:36] <geser> dch -e if you have devscripts installed
[12:36] <mruiz> ok
[12:37] <geser> you can look at the previous ubuntu entry to see what was changed
[12:38] <geser> the only ubuntu change was in debian/control to remove the php4 binary package
[12:40] <geser> if you now also read the last Debian entry you will see that there was done the same
[12:40] <geser> so it looks like a sync candidate
[12:43] <mruiz> :)
[12:43] <geser> if you look at the files grab-merge downloaded you will find mod-bt_0.0.19+p4.2296-1ubuntu1.patch with the old Ubuntu delta and mod-bt_0.0.19+p4.2340-1.patch with the new Debian changes
[12:43] <DarkSun88> Hi all
[12:44] <geser> in this case you are lucky as both files are small and easy to read
[12:45] <Hobbsee> hey DarkSun88 
[12:45] <DarkSun88> Hi Hobbsee 
[12:45] <geser> when you compare both files you will see that the Ubuntu changes are applied in the Debian package (and also why we kept the Debian changes when resolving the conflict)
[12:47] <geser> mruiz: as we don't need to merge here the next step would be to test-build the Debian package in a gutsy pbuilder and file a sync request if it builds
[12:47] <mruiz> but I have to complete the changelog before!
[12:48] <geser> not needed in this case as we will use the Debian package without modifications
[12:49] <geser> you need to write an changelog entry only if there are Ubuntu changes left which isn't the case here
[12:49] <mruiz> geser, what's about "  * Merge from debian unstable, remaining changes:
[12:49] <mruiz>     - SUMMARISE HERE
[12:49] <mruiz> "
[12:49] <geser> it's a template
[12:50] <geser> merges.ubuntu.com can't descide if a sync or a merge is needed so it prepares a merge
[12:50] <mruiz> ok
[12:50] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, gutsy deb-src's on aurora now
[12:50] <mruiz> geser, then I don't need to save the changelog file ?
[12:50] <geser> no
[12:51] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: yay!
[12:51] <geser> mruiz: we didn't even need to resolve the conflicts but now you know how to do it
[12:52] <geser> if helps if you look at the old Ubuntu changes before starting a merge so you know which changes were introduces by Ubuntu
[12:53] <mruiz> geser... I'm maintaining some Debian packages and don't touch the changelog file is strange for me
[12:54] <mruiz> anyway, I have to configure pbuilder
[12:56] <geser> mruiz: you would write a changelog entry if the package would still have Ubuntu changes
[12:56] <mruiz> yes, I understood geser...
[12:57] <mruiz> pbuilder work out of the box ?
[12:59] <geser> yes, but you should add universe to the COMPONENTS before creating one
[01:00] <mruiz> done!
[01:04] <geser> Sorry, I've to leave now. Can someone take it over?
[01:04] <imbrandon> take what over>?
[01:05] <geser> helping mruiz with the sync request
[01:05] <imbrandon> ahh , i can a bit, i'm in and out
[01:05] <geser> and test-building the Debian package in a pbuilder
[01:06] <imbrandon> mruiz, just ask away and when i see it i'll anwser ( and as more people wake we can wrangle them too )
[01:06] <imbrandon> sure geser 
[01:08] <mruiz> thanks geser for your time (and patience)
[01:10] <mruiz> imbrandon: wait me 5 minutes, please!
[01:11] <imbrandon> sure , i'm in no hurry, i'm just away from the keyboard at times
[01:11] <imbrandon> because i'm at work
[01:20] <mruiz> imbrandon, I did the following: 1. grab-merge 2. solve conflicts 
[01:22] <imbrandon> ok , now you are ready to test build the package
[01:22] <imbrandon> in pbuilder or such
[01:23] <mruiz> yes
[01:23] <imbrandon> have you created your gutsy pbuilder envirnment ?
[01:23] <mruiz> no
[01:24] <imbrandon> ok good, yea follow that
[01:24] <mruiz> "If you want to participate in the current release cycle, you will want to have a GutsyGibbon basetgz. This can be done using the method described in the previous section."
[01:26] <beuno> mruiz: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/gs-pbuilder.html
[01:27] <mruiz> thanks beuno !
[01:27] <beuno> my pleasure  :D
[01:28] <mruiz> imbrandon, I got this error->  E: No such script: /usr/lib/debootstrap/scripts/gusty
[01:29] <Fujitsu> mruiz: You need the gutsy debootstrap package/
[01:29] <imbrandon> ahh you need backports enabled OR the gutsy bootstap
[01:29] <beuno> mruiz: If you want to create a pbuilder for a release newer than the one you currently have installed, you will need to manually install the debootstrap  .deb (from http://packages.ubuntu.com) from the newer release.
[01:30] <mruiz> imbrandon, what version?
[01:30] <mruiz>   Installed: 0.3.3.3ubuntu4 / Candidate: 0.3.3.3ubuntu4
[01:32] <imbrandon> that looks like the correct version
[01:33] <mruiz> yes, I'm using a special Gusty installation :-)
[01:34] <Fujitsu> Oh, right. gutsy, not gusty.
[01:35] <imbrandon> ahh right, the farty release
[01:35] <mruiz> :)
[01:35] <mruiz> damn typo!
[01:36] <thp_> can somebody sync the updated version of "gpodder" from debian's unstable repository to the gutsy repository?
[01:36] <bmm> Why does lintian on REVU complain about not knowing the gutsy release?
[01:36] <bmm> http://revu.tauware.de/revu1-incoming/ccbuild-0705270835/lintian
[01:36] <imbrandon> !sync | thp_ 
[01:36] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about sync - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[01:36] <imbrandon> grr
[01:38] <thp_> imbrandon: where can i look for what you wanted me to say?
[01:41] <imbrandon> thp_, wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU should ahve some request a sync info
[01:42] <thp_> imbrandon: thanks :)
[01:43] <mars_> hi
[01:44] <mars_> a package i've done has been rejected from gutsy/+queue because i mess LGPL! so i've corrected it now and i have to re-ask someone to revu ....
[01:44] <mars_> is there someone who could look at it : http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5320 ??
[01:51] <Lutin> mars_: did he *really* got rejected because of the missing LGPL thing (I mean, have you been asked to mention the LGPL ?=
[01:52] <mars_> Lutin: i've received this mail http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/23072/
[01:52] <mars_> but perhaps i've not understand it well
[01:53] <Lutin> yes, you did understand well
[01:53] <mruiz> imbrandon, ""W: Failure trying to run: chroot /var/cache/pbuilder/build/4905/. mount -t proc proc /proc
[01:53] <mruiz> pbuilder: debootstrap failed
[01:54] <imbrandon> mruiz, are you running it in sudo ?
[01:54] <DktrKranz> mruiz, did you run it as root?
[01:56] <mruiz> yes, with sudo. 
[02:00] <mars_> mruiz: i've allready seen this error i think you have to update your pbuilder
[02:01] <mruiz> how usually I must update my gutsy system?
[02:01] <imbrandon> sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
[02:02] <mars_> euh
[02:02] <mruiz> yes, I know
[02:02] <mars_> mruiz: sudo pbuilder update
[02:03] <mruiz> must I update my ubuntu "devel" every day?
[02:03] <mars_> if you have a feisty pbuilder and want a gusty one instead you can do this sudo pbuilder update --distribution gutsy --override-config
[02:03] <mars_> but i'm new to this so someone can correct me
[02:05] <imbrandon> mruiz, yes , sometimes more
[02:05] <mruiz> :o
[02:19] <xxxxx1> morning guys
[02:20] <jsgotangco> hi
[02:20] <Hobbsee> hi xxxxx1, hi spam
[02:20] <joejaxx> mruiz: hopefully it works for you
[02:21] <joejaxx> i have not been able to do anything because my gutsy pbuilder is broken
[02:21] <mruiz> :(
[02:22] <mruiz> any upgrade ?
[02:24] <Lutin> mars_: had a look at your package, seems fine, but I won't upload it, sorry. having to reupload because of the _autofoo_ licensing stuff just sounds way too picky to me
[02:28] <ScottK> Good $TIME_OF_DAY all.
[02:29] <dholbach> hi ScottK
[02:29] <persia> hi ScottK
[02:29] <ScottK> Hello dholbach and persia.
[02:30] <ScottK> persia: How goes gaphor in Debian?  I duped another how come gaphor won't start bug yesterday.
[02:30] <RainCT> Hi, persia
[02:31] <RainCT> persia: about the desktop-file-utils patch, you mean remove the section checking if Encoding's value is OK, too?
[02:32] <persia> ScottK: Cdric is working on it, but gaphas is not as easy as one might assume.  Based on our email discussion, I'm holding off on 0.9.2 until we get closer to UVF, as users would be better off with a 0.10 version.  By the way, Ubuntu doesn't currently have a supported distribution with a working gaphor (it last worked in Breezy) :)
[02:33] <persia> RainCT: Yep.  If you look at the other deprecations, all the code has been removed.  I expect upstream to do that when they get your patch, but it's better practice to comment it out or #ifdef it away when patching at a distribution level.
[02:34] <ScottK> persia: Right, but the sooner we get a working package, the sooner it can be backported.  You might work with Cdric on keeping version dependencies such that it can be backported at least to Feisty (Dapper's almost certainly hopeless and Edgy people can be told to upgrade if they want it).
[02:36] <persia> ScottK: Cdric isn't likely to support that.  I remember issues with python-support & boa-constructor for Edgy & Feisty.  If you think backports are really important, we might want to go with 0.9.2, just because it doesn't require gaphas, and new libraries are not a good idea for backports.
[02:36] <mruiz> imbrandon, I got the same problem: "W: Failure trying to run: chroot /var/cache/pbuilder/build/16442/. mount -t proc proc /proc"
[02:38] <persia> mruiz: debootstrap is broken in gutsy right now.  Your best option is to debootstrap feisty from feisty, and then dist-upgrade the chroot.
[02:39] <mruiz> thanks persia!
[02:39] <ScottK> persia: In that case I'd suggest 0.9.2 because I do think it's important.  We've been saying in the bug wait for a new package.  Clearly there's interest.  Waiting for Gutsy is a long ways off.  You'd be a hero to a bunch of people if you'd do 0.9.2 and we backport it.
[02:39] <persia> RainCT: If you have time, you might also consider looking at the rest of validate.c.  I suspect that there were other changes moving to the current version, and there are a couple FIXME labels that need new code.  If you don't have time, don't worry.  It won't hurt anything :)
[02:39] <Lin> there is any know bug on wpa_supplicant / network boot scripts on feisty?
[02:40] <Hobbsee> Lin: #ubuntu for support
[02:40] <Lin> Hobbsee: ok. no problem.
[02:41] <persia> ScottK: OK.  I'll clean up the package to have no warnings.  If I stuck it on REVU (I've already agreed with Cdric not to upload to gutsy) would you mind chasing the backports?
[02:41] <mruiz> persia: then, I have to install the debootstrap package from feisty...
[02:42] <persia> mruiz: Depends on your system.  If you are already running gutsy, booting temporarily from the LiveCD is probably easiest.
[02:42] <ScottK> persia: If you get the package ready, I'll work the backporting.  YOU agreed not to upload to Gutsy.  How pissed off would he be if I did?
[02:42] <ScottK> persia: Backporting will be easier if we upload to Gutsy first.
[02:42] <persia> ScottK: I don't imagine much.  I don't think Cdric cares much about Ubuntu: I just don't like to say one thing and do another.
[02:43] <mruiz> that's bad luck... I was learning how to merge :-(
[02:43] <persia> ScottK: Your call.  I'll clean up the errors, and put it somewhere.
[02:43] <ScottK> persia: Understand.  I don't like to do it either.  I'll avoid going via Gutsy if I can.
[02:44] <persia> ScottK: Thanks.  I'll try to get it up tomorrow, and send you an email with the URL.
[02:45] <ScottK> persia: OK.  REVU is fine too.  I can take e-mail up to 10MB.  If you want to just make a big tarball of the whole thing, and e-mail it, that'll work too.
[02:45] <persia> ScottK: I'll just email it then, if that's easier for you.
[02:45] <ScottK> Doesn't matter much either way.
[03:00] <RainCT> persia: okay, will work on it later (gonna go in 10 minutes)
[03:00] <persia> RainCT: Great.  Thanks.  Let me know if you have any questions.
[03:01] <RainCT> btw, how can I see the bugs with the new kernel?
[03:02] <mruiz> persia: about debootstrap... is it a bug ?
[03:03] <RainCT> is is that one? linux-image-2.6.20-16-386 
[03:03] <persia> RainCT: http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.22
[03:03] <RainCT> ok thanks
[03:03] <persia> mruiz: I think it's a temporary side effect of some of the merges.  It's a known issue, and is being worked on.  There may be a bug, but there may not be.
[03:05] <RainCT> well, if it isn't still there I'll also open a bug report there this evening.. I can't start with the new one
[03:13] <jekil> hello
[03:15] <fernando> moin all
[03:17] <mruiz> persia: then I must wait... :(
[03:18] <persia> mruiz: You could do what I'm doing now, and boot a liveCD and make some chroots for later use :)
[03:25] <siretart> bluekuja: around?
[03:25] <bluekuja> siretart, yes
[03:26] <siretart> bluekuja: I see that you have merged cryptsetup, and in the changelog you say that there is a patch for #85640 somewhere
[03:26] <siretart> bluekuja: can you point me to the patch you took over about that?
[03:26] <bluekuja> siretart, give me a minute, let me check it :)
[03:27] <siretart> thanks
[03:28] <bluekuja> siretart, that change was added by stgraber, in feisty
[03:28] <siretart> bluekuja: still, I cannot find the change in http://patches.ubuntu.com/by-release/ubuntu/c/cryptsetup/cryptsetup_2:1.0.4+svn29-1ubuntu1.patch
[03:29] <siretart> either it has been merged in the debian package, or it has been dropped somewhere
[03:30] <siretart> ooh, you mean http://librarian.launchpad.net/7329604/bug85640.debdiff, right?
[03:30] <bluekuja> yeah
[03:30] <bluekuja> thats it
[03:30] <bluekuja> anyway I see # Wait for udev to be ready
[03:30] <siretart> well, the thing is that debian/initramfs-cryptroot-script has been moved to debian/initramfs
[03:30] <bluekuja> in the diff
[03:30] <Ash-Fox> pidgin has a strange configure script: checking for me pot o' gold... no
[03:30] <bluekuja> added into initramfs-cryptroot-script
[03:31] <siretart> which doesn't exist anymore
[03:31] <persia> beuno: Hello.
[03:31] <bluekuja> siretart, yeah
[03:32] <siretart> bluekuja: it needs to be "ported" to debian/initramfs/cryptroot-script
[03:32] <beuno> mornin' persia
[03:32] <bluekuja> siretart, want me to fix it?
[03:33] <bluekuja> as far as it doesnt exist anymore
[03:33] <persia> beuno: Did you ever get anywhere with webboard?
[03:33] <beuno> persia: my gutsy pbuilder has been bishaving and I haven't had a chance to look at it yet...
[03:34] <persia> beuno: No worries.  Just checking.  Good luck with pbuilder :)
[03:34] <beuno> persia: It's on my "to-do" list, so I'll get to it sooner or later
[03:34] <beuno> and thanks  :D
[03:35] <siretart> bluekuja: I'm fixing it in my bzr branch
[03:35] <siretart> bluekuja: but you're welcome to review it!
[03:35] <bluekuja> siretart, yeah of course! just point me to your bzr repo, and I'll take a look
[03:35] <bluekuja> :)
[03:37] <siretart> bluekuja: http://code.launchpad.net/~siretart/cryptsetup/ubuntu
[03:38] <siretart> bluekuja: you can use http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~siretart/cryptsetup/ubuntu/changes for online review, my lastest revision is 8
[03:38] <mruiz> thanks all... bye!
[03:38] <bluekuja> siretart, not yet published, waiting for it :)
[03:38] <siretart> should be now
[03:38] <bluekuja> yup
[03:39] <jussi01> can someone do me a small favour?
[03:39] <elkbuntu> your favours are never small :
[03:41] <jussi01> please please tell me a nice _simple_, wsiwyg web page maker? (for linux)gah.. I just need to make a simple stuid web page...
[03:41] <jussi01> elkbuntu: rofl
[03:42] <bluekuja> siretart, all seems ok. Line /sbin/udevsettle --timeout=30 has been added
[03:42] <bluekuja> so patch applied
[03:42] <bluekuja> siretart, thanks for point me to it. Didnt see it was lost by stgraber
[03:43] <bluekuja> ;)
[03:43] <siretart> bluekuja: so the branch is okay for upload? or do you want to look at my earlier commits from today and/or send me a bundle for it? 
[03:44] <bluekuja> siretart, let me check last commits too
[03:46] <leonel> hello people  let's have a good day !
[03:47] <mshima> Hi I need some feedback at package odccm on http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5243
[03:49] <bluekuja> siretart, you re-added cryptdisks.functions missing hunk too?
[03:49] <bluekuja> that was deleted in the previous patch
[03:49] <siretart> sorry?
[03:49] <siretart> which commit?
[03:49] <bluekuja> siretart,  * add missing hunk of cryptsetup.functions compared to debian package.
[03:49] <siretart> http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~siretart/cryptsetup/ubuntu/revision/siretart%40tauware.de-20070529132213-2c28w55jhng4czm9?start_revid=siretart%40tauware.de-20070529133648-y2cb7ldw0dd7nsy5
[03:49] <bluekuja> commit 7
[03:49] <siretart> yes, I noticed that hunk while debdiffing with the debian package
[03:49] <bluekuja> yup
[03:50] <siretart> that hunk was missing in ubuntu, and I didn't see some documentation why it was removed. so I restored the hunk
[03:50] <bluekuja> siretart, yeah, in fact there is no changelog entry for that removed hunk
[03:51] <siretart> do you know what's about it?
[03:51] <siretart> if not, I'd prefer to stay closer to debian
[03:52] <bluekuja> siretart, nope, I dont know why it has been deleted, and we got no documentation for it, so its ok to stay closer with debian.
[03:52] <siretart> ok
[03:52] <bluekuja> siretart, its ok for upload. ;)
[03:52] <siretart> great. I'll do in a sec
[03:52] <bluekuja> great
[03:52] <bluekuja> :)
[03:59] <hendrixski> backporting usually just implies making sure that all of the dependencies can be met on that previous release, right?
[04:02] <hendrixski> because I tried the helloworld package from feisty in a dapper pbuilder... and it needed a newer libc6 which needs a newer linux-libc-dev ... and I'm just wondering if I'm going about this the wrong way of trying each one successively in pbuilder. 
[04:02] <Hobbsee> it means that all the build dependancies can be met, and that hte new dependancies generated from the build-dependancies can also be met
[04:03] <ScottK> Ideally the package should work too.  Just building isn't enough for a backport.
[04:03] <persia> Hobbsee: Could you please define "new dependancies generated from the build-dependancies"?
[04:04] <Hobbsee> persia: shlib depends
[04:04] <persia> Hobbsee: Thanks.
[04:04] <hendrixski> I gather that means that the dependancies of the dependancy, right?
[04:05] <Hobbsee> hendrixski: a package has build-dependancies - packages it needs to build.  if all is done correctly, the package, during the build, goes "if i needed this to build, then i'll need this to run"
[04:05] <Hobbsee> type idea
[04:05] <hendrixski> got it
[04:06] <hendrixski> so assuming that I have all the build-dependancies done, and the package sorts out all the dependancies to run... then I still need to test if it works (and possibly modify some code)?
[04:06] <Hobbsee> yes
[04:06] <Hobbsee> if you have to modify the code, then you cant get an official backport for it
[04:07] <nixternal> ajmitch: very funny!
[04:07] <hendrixski> ouch... the dependancies for the feisty helloworld are really low-level library things I don't know if I'm ready to modify...
[04:08] <Hobbsee> if you check debian/control in the source, you wont see many depends at all there
[04:08] <hendrixski> Hobbsee, official backports? are those the ones already in the repositories of that release? or is there also somewhere else I may look for them?
[04:09] <Hobbsee> !backports
[04:09] <ubotu> If new updated Ubuntu packages are built for an application, then they go into Ubuntu Backports. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports - See also !packaging
[04:09] <hendrixski> ah, sweet
[04:11] <persia> Does anyone have any good suggestions for keeping track of one's depth when working in chroots in chroots in chroots?
[04:12] <hendrixski> persia, you can do that?? wow cool
[04:12] <persia> hendrixski: If noone answers my question, I suggest you don't do that.  It's too easy to make a mistake.
[04:13] <ScottK> persia: Touch a unique file name for each level and then ls /home will tell you where you are.
[04:13] <StevenK> persia: Hrm. $SHLVL?
[04:13] <ScottK> .. a unique file name in /home..
[04:13] <persia> ScottK: Good idea.  Thanks.  None have unique homes, but I can fake it.
[04:14] <hendrixski> persia, I was just imagining how tricky that would be... but having a pbuilder in a chroot may be something I could use... just was afraid to try
[04:14] <persia> StevenK: Thanks.  That's exactly what I sought.
[04:14] <StevenK> persia: I have a file in /etc, and my prompt is set to show it if it exists.
[04:15] <StevenK> Why hack around when the shell can provide for you? :-)
[04:15] <StevenK> % echo $SHLVL
[04:15] <StevenK> 1
[04:15] <StevenK> % pl-gutsy 
[04:15] <StevenK> ...
[04:15] <StevenK> # echo $SHLVL
[04:15] <StevenK> 3
[04:15] <persia> StevenK: I'm currently playing with chroots with lifetimes of minutes - not worth configuring that, but thanks.
[04:15] <StevenK> persia: Then use $SHLVL and be happy. :-)
[04:25] <hendrixski> :-( I'm not seeing the libraries I need in the backports for dapper ... so, lemme see if I understand correctly.... either that means no modification needed, or just nobody has bothered yet and modification may be needed
[04:26] <Hobbsee> the latter, probalby
[04:26] <Hobbsee> and only smallish things are backported
[04:27] <hendrixski> oh,,, umm, I guess libc isn't "smallish" is it?
[04:27] <hendrixski> seeing as how almost everything on the system needs it
[04:27] <Hobbsee> no
[04:28] <StevenK> I daresay, libc will never be backported.
[04:28] <Hobbsee> you dont want to backport libc, and if you're trying to, then you're not understanding what you're wanting to do
[04:28] <Fujitsu> hendrixski: You need to rebuild the package in question, most probably.
[04:29] <dholbach> persia: motu-wiki-sheriff ping
[04:29] <ScottK> Note to self: Upload the spamassassin merge BEFORE you download a new merge into the same directory....  grumble, grumble ...
[04:29] <Hobbsee> hahahha
[04:29] <Hobbsee> yes
[04:30] <Hobbsee> and make sure you wait for the accepted mail
[04:30] <Fujitsu> ScottK: Or use separate directories for each.
[04:30] <hendrixski> hhhmm... I'm trying to learn by backporting the hello package from feisty onto dapper... 
[04:30] <hendrixski> so I have to rebuild the package rather than just slap it into a dapper pbuilder?
[04:30] <Fujitsu> hendrixski: Building it in a pbuilder is building it.
[04:32] <dholbach> persia: I wanted to write a wiki page about what "maintaining means" - do you think that MOTU/Documentation/MaintainingMeans might be a good place for that?
[04:33] <hendrixski> Fujitsu, "pbuilder build hello####.dsc" gives me an error that it can't find the libc6 it needs... is there another command for building in pbuilder I should try?
[04:35] <persia> dholbach: it will take a minute for me to see.
[04:36] <dholbach> persia: I didn't start writing it yet
[04:36] <dholbach> persia: just asking for an opinion and wanted to know if it'd make sense to you
[04:36] <imbrandon> i woudl drop the Means off imho
[04:36] <imbrandon> would*
[04:37] <persia> dholbach: It doesn't make sense at first glance, but I want to become a little more familiar with MOTU/Documentation before I say for sure, and my connection is a little slow right now (running multiple simultaneous debootstraps on a LiveCD).
[04:38] <imbrandon> persia, wow
[04:38] <joejaxx> persia: so you are a livecd abuser as well? :)
[04:38] <dholbach> persia: which place would make more sense to you?
[04:38] <persia> joejaxx: Only today.
[04:38] <joejaxx> persia: ah ok
[04:39] <persia> dholbach: Looking at what is available, it seems the MOTU/Documentation namespace is fairly empty - containing only the root and the TODO.
[04:39] <dholbach> yes, but that shouldn't stop us from adding more documentation there
[04:39] <dholbach> for example I'd like to have MOTU/Documenation/Wishlist
[04:39] <dholbach> where we can actively track what kind of documentation needs to be written
[04:40] <dholbach> we're fairly clueless about that and explain the same things over and over again atm ;-)
[04:40] <persia> dholbach: What do you think of MOTU/Packages/Maintaining, which includes a definition section and some guidelines on best practices and working with maintainers from other distributions?
[04:40] <dholbach> persia: sounds good
[04:42] <persia> dholbach: I don't disagree that adding more documentation would be good, but I think most things can probably fit into MOTU/Processes, MOTU/Packages, MOTU/School, MOTU/Teams, and MOTU/ itself.  These seem fairly well populated, and I'm not convinced there's enough new content for MOTU/Documentation (although I like MOTU/Documentation as a document in the MOTU/ Namespace)/
[04:42] <dholbach> persia: probably yes
[04:44] <persia> On the other hand, if things like HowToMerge, HowToPatch, Hopeful/Tips, etc. were to be consolidated under Documentation, that might make sense, although I'm not sure those don't belong under Packages as well.  Now I'm confused.
[04:44] <dholbach> I don't think that MOTU/Packages makes much sense anyway
[04:45] <dholbach> not that I'm trying to get rid of it just now, but thinking about it, there's not much sense in it
[04:45] <dholbach> packages are important to us, but it's not really intuitive in a document hierarchy
[04:46] <dholbach> Hobbsee: I changed http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentoring/Contributor to reflect the reservations you had during the last meeting - let me know what you think about it
[04:46] <persia> dholbach: The contents of the Namespace seem scattered as well.  Perhaps Packaging should move?
[04:46] <dholbach> persia: probably
[04:49] <persia> dholbach: My workstation is a bit of a mess right now, but if you don't develop a master plan for MOTU Wiki Namespaces beforehand, I'll draft a candidate structure for review in a couple hours.
[04:49] <Hobbsee> dholbach: looks great
[04:49] <dholbach> persia: that's very cool - thanks a lot - I'm happy to review
[04:49] <dholbach> Hobbsee: cool, thanks
[04:49] <persia> dholbach: Thanks.
[04:55] <shawarma> Is there a way to find old versions of packages in Debian? source packages, that is.
[04:57] <ScottK> shawarma: Sometimes.
[04:57] <shawarma> shawarma: Oh, good.
[04:57] <dholbach>  http://snapshot.debian.net ?
[04:58] <shawarma> dholbach: Yay! thanks.
[04:58] <ScottK> shawarma: If you look in the developrtd page for the source package it'll give a link to .dsc for the current version in each supported distro (oldstable, stable, testing, unstable, and experimental if it exists) and you can use dget to get it.
[04:58] <shawarma> ScottK: You should listen to dholbach. :)
[04:59] <ScottK> shawarma: Searching snapshot gets you the same things as you get from the developer page for the source package AFAICT.  
[05:00] <jsmidt> Where is a good place I can find packages in Debian which need to mergerged/synced in Ubuntu and vica versa. 
[05:00] <shawarma> ScottK: Only the version I was looking for was not a current one (in any release)
[05:00] <ScottK> Did you find it with snapshot?
[05:00] <shawarma> ScottK: Yup.
[05:00] <ScottK> OK.  Thanks.  I'll remember that.
[05:01] <dholbach> jsmidt:  http://merges.ubuntu.com ?
[05:02] <jsmidt> Is that an automated system?
[05:02] <shawarma> jsmidt: yes
[05:03] <jsmidt> okay, I see that on the first line.  I will read up on it.  I will just ask quickly though, do all these packages need someone to go through them and merge them by hand?
[05:04] <shawarma> jsmidt: Almost.
[05:04] <shawarma> jsmidt: Someone may have looked at them since the page was last generated.
[05:04] <shawarma> jsmidt: ..which happens at least once a day. Maybe more often.
[05:05] <shawarma> jsmidt: also, in order to not duplicate work, you are encouraged to ask here first if someone is working on it. It's up to you, though.
[05:05] <jsmidt> I would like to help with the mere process.  Can I upload merges into revu?
[05:06] <shawarma> You *can*, but we prefer if you prepare a debdiff (between your merged package and the recent debian version) and either submit a bug or poke someone here.
[05:06] <jsmidt> shawarma, okay that's what I will do.
[05:06] <shawarma> jsmidt: Yay! :)
[05:07] <persia> jsmidt: Take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing for best practices when generating a debdiff for a new revision.
[05:10] <jsmidt> persia, thanks.  Yesterday I tried to merge a couple packages but quickly found out I was going about it the wrong way.  My excuse is I was using Ubuntu's packaging guide which I do not believe said anything about merge-o-matic.
[05:10] <jsmidt> It says use revu.
[05:14] <persia> jsmidt: Sorry about that.  We hope to address that during this cycle.
[05:16] <persia> Does anyone know the URL to see a list of all the pages in the Wiki?
[05:22] <persia> dholbach: Thanks, but that doesn't show *everything* :)
[05:22] <dholbach> yeah
[05:22] <dholbach> :-/
[05:23] <persia>  /Pagesize does a good job, if the sorting is annoying.  I was hoping AllPages would work, but it appears to have been disabled.
[05:26] <dholbach> persia: I added the Maintaining section to MOTU/FAQ for now
[05:28] <persia> dholbach: That's probably a good place for now.  The more I look, the more I think the entire MOTU/ namespace isn't really a good idea.  There's just way too much that is shared between Universe and Main, and, as far as I can tell, increasingly little difference between the processes (excepting dev vs. core-dev).
[05:28] <vijay2000> hi all i am having the following problem when i am trying to do a build of clamtk - http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/23100/
[05:28] <dholbach> persia: I agree
[05:29] <dholbach> persia: we have some processes that differ, but that's been adressed by adding sections or linking to other pages
[05:29] <persia> dholbach: I'll draft my ideas in a while, but I'd especially like to get Jordan's input on this (and he's likely asleep now), as he had some strong opinions during Edgy / Feisty about the wiki namespaces.
[05:30] <dholbach> take your time
[05:30] <dholbach> and thanks again
[05:31] <persia> dholbach: I think sections are best - it seems like a lot of new people don't know how to distinguish between main and universe when starting to help.  At least, if I really had time to clean everything up, I'd do it that way.
[05:31] <dholbach> yeah, it's really confusing
[05:31] <dholbach> and that's the feedback we've been getting for quite a while
[05:33] <persia> Is there an active wiki team?
[05:33] <vijay2000> persia :please help what could be wrong with the patch http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/23100/
[05:34] <jsmidt> is there a manpage for merge-genchanges or merge-buildpackage?
[05:34] <persia> vijay2000: It doesn't apply.  Try applying the patch manually (or building locally) to try to figure out what went wrong.
[05:35] <vijay2000> ok i will read the how to patch wiki then 
[05:35] <Hobbsee> jsmidt: dpkg-genchanges
[05:35] <Hobbsee> jsmidt: and dpkg-buildpackage
[05:37] <jsmidt> So do I use merge-buildpackage instead of debuild? 
[05:42] <geser> jsmidt: it doesn't matter if you use merge-buildpackage or debuild if you want to create a debdiff
[05:42] <Hobbsee> if you're doing a merge, yes, you should use merge-buildpacakge
[05:42] <geser> also for the debdiff?
[05:42] <Hobbsee> as it does special things with the version numbers with the genchanges
[05:43] <Hobbsee> for normal uploads debuild is fine
[05:43] <geser> the .changes file isn't in the debdiff
[05:43] <Hobbsee> but for merging, if you dont do ti with -v (last ubuntu version), or whatever the syntax is, or use the merge-genchanges, or merge-buildpackage, keybuk will yell at you
[05:44] <geser> I do it when I upload myself but not if I only want to create a debdiff
[05:44] <persia> Hobbsee: If you're not uploading, it doesn't matter what the .changes file looks like.
[05:44] <geser> and I also call dpkg-buildpackage with -v when sponsoring
[05:45] <vijay2000> persia:can u tell me the link of how to patch
[05:45] <Hobbsee> persia: some people dont rebuild, and just sign the changes file, btw
[05:46] <persia> Hobbsee: People upload .changes files for merges?
[05:46] <persia> vijay2000: There are a couple.  Search the wiki for Patch.
[05:46] <Hobbsee> and .dsc's and .diff.gz's and tarballs.....
[05:46] <Hobbsee> well, signing the changes file, and automatically signing the .dsc as well
[05:47] <jsmidt> Using merge-buildpackage I get an error: source version without epoch 1.9.3-3ubuntu1
[05:47] <jsmidt> Does anybody know what that error is from?
[05:47] <geser> that's not an error just some output
[05:48] <jsmidt> okay, then it drops down and say test "'id -u'" =0 ... [testroot]  error.
[05:50] <geser> install fakeroot and add -rfakeroot to your call of merge-buildpackage or debuild
[05:50] <jsmidt> gaser thanks
[05:51] <jsmidt> That did it.
[05:54] <jsmidt> okay, is anyone working on kile?  It looks like it worked.
[05:59] <gpocentek> jsmidt: hello!
[06:00] <gpocentek> jsmidt: about texmaker, I'm not sure that a merge would be really useful
[06:00] <jsmidt> Hey, gpocentek 
[06:00] <gpocentek> if you switch to CBDS in debian we could just sync the package
[06:00] <gpocentek> CDBS even
[06:00] <jsmidt> gpocentek, okay.  
[06:00] <vijay2000> persia : which category in this page i need to refer to in my case https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PatchingSources?highlight=%28patch%29
[06:01] <persia> vijay2000: Depends on your package.  Look in debian/rules.
[06:04] <vijay2000> this is what my debian/rules says http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/23108/
[06:05] <persia> vijay2000: Do you see patch anywhere in there?  If so, look for a similar construction in the School session.
[06:07] <vijay2000> i dont see anypatch anywhere in here 
[06:07] <jsmidt> Alright, assuming nobody is working on kile, can I give my debdiff to someone here?
[06:07] <persia> vijay2000: How about line 4?
[06:08] <ScottK> vijay2000: Are you fixing clamtk so it'll actually work?
[06:08] <vijay2000> scottk: i am tying to build packages
[06:09] <ScottK> OK.  AFAICT, clamtk is currently very broken because it wasn't updated for the new clamav yet.
[06:10] <LaserJock> persia: I'm awake
[06:11] <persia> LaserJock: Hi.  I haven't finished reviewing all the pages in the wiki yet, but I thought that abolishing the MOTU Namespace, and instead trying to merge the useful docs with those in other namespaces as part of a shared Development area might lead to less confusion for newcomers.
[06:12] <persia> I know that you had been working on MOTU a lot, and wanted to hear what you thought about that, or if you thought more separation would be better.
[06:12] <persia> (MOTU := MOTU/ Namespace)
[06:13] <LaserJock> well, I don't think we need to abolish the namespace entirely
[06:13] <LaserJock> we'll always have a few MOTU specific things, team pages, and some process pages (TODO)
[06:14] <LaserJock> but ... I think it's a very good idea to put the stuff that applies to more than just MOTU in a generic namespace
[06:14] <LaserJock> I believe mdz likes the idea as well
[06:14] <mdz> I do
[06:14] <jsmidt> Who do I submit my debdiff to in a bug report: ubuntu-universe-sponsors?
[06:15] <mdz> there's plenty of documentation currently under MOTU which applies equally well to core
[06:15] <LaserJock> exactly
[06:15] <LaserJock>  /UbuntuDevelopment is an example
[06:15] <persia> I thought there was probably a good reason, but I see lots of apparent duplication (Developers, SRU, Sponsorship, packaging practices & documentation, UVF, etc.).
[06:15] <mdz> the most important thing is that it's easily reachable from UbuntuDevelopment
[06:15] <LaserJock> SyncRequestProcess
[06:16] <LaserJock> persia: well, mostly the reason is we started a lot of that stuff before the "outside MOTU" stuff existed really
[06:16] <mdz> the naming is secondary
[06:16] <ScottK> Another important point that is often lost in the current pages is when content is written from a developers' perspective (I can upload) or a contributors perspective (I need to get a deb to upload).  The process distinctions aren't always clear to the un-initiated.
[06:16] <persia> LaserJock: That's what I thought.  That's part of why I was interested in trying to rationalise the namespace: to make it easier for Wiki contributors to put things in easy to find places.
[06:17] <LaserJock> mdz: true, but it effects how people view and edit the documentation
[06:17] <persia> ScottK: Completely agreed.
[06:19] <LaserJock> mdz: do you think it'd be good idea to use something like a /Development/ namespace and put all the documentation there?
[06:19] <persia> I think /Development and /Processes should be separate, personally.
[06:19] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: that sounds...wise.  assumign that's only for ubuntu development, and nothing else wants that namespace
[06:19] <persia> Hobbsee: In the Ubuntu wiki?
[06:20] <Hobbsee> yes
[06:20] <LaserJock> I'm afraid that keeping MOTU namespace for general docs leads to core-devs not taking as much of an interest and MOTUs writing in a MOTU-specific way
[06:21] <mdz> LaserJock: I'm not particularly impressed with the namespacing in moin
[06:21] <mdz> most days I think it's more trouble than it's worth
[06:21] <LaserJock> I can imagine
[06:21] <Hobbsee> persia: i have no idea if anything else would be doing it's development on the ubuntu wiki.  but i do know that there are some insane people, which are inclined not to make sense
[06:22] <ScottK> Then/The
[06:22] <Hobbsee> so i was playing safe
[06:22] <persia> I like it because it allows one to search for $Namespace in FindPage and see a list.
[06:22] <persia> Hobbsee: I can see that point, but I think that counts as content to be removed / fixed.
[06:22] <Hobbsee> indeed
[06:22] <LaserJock> mdz: my other question is if you think the wiki should replace the Ubuntu Developer's Reference spec
[06:22] <Hobbsee> i was more saying "this should probably be checked for, first"
[06:23] <geser> jsmidt: for which package is the debdiff?
[06:23] <mdz> LaserJock: if the question is whether the official documentation should be maintained in the wiki, then yes, I think that's appropriate at this stage
[06:23] <persia> Hobbsee: You win.  Tilix Development is there (but that's not a namespace conflict).
[06:24] <Hobbsee> haha
[06:24] <Hobbsee> i was hoping i *wouldnt* win, really.
[06:26] <LaserJock> ok, well, how's this then
[06:26] <LaserJock> when creating new documentation, say the Cookbook stuff that dholbach suggested, why don't we try to do it in a general way and put it in a general place
[06:26] <jsmidt> geser, I filed a bug report in launchpad under kile 1.9.3-3 merge.  I subscribed ubuntu-universe-sponsors
[06:27] <xxxxx1> bddebian!
[06:27] <Hobbsee> jsmidt: there's something funny about kile
[06:27] <Hobbsee> jsmidt: did you test build it?
[06:27] <LaserJock> as time progresses the MOTU namespace will get weeded out (survival of the most used)
[06:27] <geser> Hi bddebian
[06:27] <bddebian> Heya gang
[06:27] <bddebian> Hi xxxxx1, geser
[06:28] <persia> LaserJock: That works for me.  I expect a fair amount of MOTU to stop being useful if anyone actually cleans the dupes.  Do yuo see any issues with that?
[06:28] <persia> bddebian: Hi.
[06:28] <bddebian> Hi persia
[06:29] <jsmidt> Hobbsee,  I did last night, but not before I did merged form merge-o-matic.  I just build debian's package, I will test the merge-o-matic one.
[06:29] <ScottK> Amazing how much better the package builds if you not only get all the letters from the build-dep in debian/control, but also get them in the correct order...
[06:29] <Hobbsee> kile was originally a sync, iirc, but ftbfs
[06:29] <jsmidt> I wasn't aware of merge-o-matic last night.
[06:29] <Hobbsee> i cant see the changleog, though.  it's broken again
[06:30] <LaserJock> persia: well, I really dislike all the dups and redirects we have
[06:30] <ScottK> LaserJock: Better than 404s though.
[06:30] <LaserJock> persia: I created the Sandbox to try to get around some of that, but perhaps I didn't really make it's usage clear
[06:30] <LaserJock> ScottK: marginally
[06:30] <persia> LaserJock: For the time being, I'm thinking of adding lots more redirects.  Cleaning up after moves is frustrating and annoying.
[06:31] <persia> LaserJock: I don't think anyone but you and I has ever used the sandbox.
[06:31] <LaserJock> 404's on a wiki aren't as horrible as on a website, there is search functionality
[06:31] <geser> jsmidt: the ubuntu-universe-sponsors team is correct to get your debdiff reviewed and uploaded
[06:31] <LaserJock> what I do is this: search the url in google to see if anybody outside the wiki has linked to it
[06:32] <LaserJock> then search within the wiki to see if anybody has linked to it
[06:32] <persia> Still, when people have lists of pages they've worked on, and it moves right before their CC meeting, it can be a bit awkward.
[06:32] <LaserJock> if there are outside links I leave it and redirect
[06:32] <LaserJock> if there are just inside links I fix the links and delete the old page
[06:33] <LaserJock> the only thing that should break are bookmarks
[06:33] <persia> LaserJock: That destroys the history.  Maybe good for the overall health of the Wiki, but I'm not sure our current processes are robust enough to protect against that.
[06:34] <LaserJock> well, you can rename and keep the history, I'm pretty sure
[06:34] <persia> Another defense of having lots of redirects (why am I defending this - I don't really like redirects) is that more search terms are likely to hit the page, as it will show all the different names people have used in the past.
[06:35] <LaserJock> working on the wiki becomes a gigantic headache when we have probably at least 1/3 of the pages being redirects
[06:36] <LaserJock> title search for MOTU gives 192 results
[06:36] <persia> LaserJock: That's a good point, but most of the redirect pages shouldn't be best practice anyway.
[06:36] <LaserJock> CategoryMOTU gives 94 results
[06:37] <persia> LaserJock: Most of that is just not including CategoryMOTU, at my guess.
[06:38] <LaserJock> I spent one day a while ago and cleared out ~30 redirects
[06:39] <LaserJock> we keep moving stuff around and the redirects keep piling up
[06:39] <LaserJock> how many SRU pages do we need? ;-)

[06:39] <persia> LaserJock: Four, as far sa I can tell :)
[06:40] <LaserJock> so, as we seem to be on a documentation kick these days
[06:40] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: 42
[06:40] <LaserJock> let's try to create new documents that are useful outside of just MOTU outside of /MOTU
[06:41] <persia> LaserJock: As with last time I was around, after about a month, I get really sick of answering the same questions, and want to write some docs.
[06:42] <LaserJock> persia: care to send an email to -motu about this?
[06:44] <persia> LaserJock: As long as you don't have a problem with the eventual death of /MOTU/, I'm more than happy to propose new merged development namespaces and targets for consolidation.  I'm less sure that I'll get to all the implementation, as it's not on my shortlist of Gutsy goals (although high on my long list of Ubuntu goals).
[06:45] <LaserJock> persia: well, I don't like "eventual death of /MOTU/" ;-) but yes, cleaning out all the non-MOTU specific documentation is a good idea
[06:46] <LaserJock> and rewording documentation that *should* not be MOTU-specific
[06:46] <persia> LaserJock: What do you consider MOTU-specific documentation?
[06:47] <LaserJock> I think we should still have a FAQ
[06:47] <LaserJock> Mentoring will probably have to stay for a while
[06:48] <persia> LaserJock: Why?  Core-devs can mentor (and some core-devs were listed on the MOTU/Mentoring page before NewMentoring).
[06:48] <LaserJock> yes, but we have a mailing list
[06:48] <LaserJock> ubuntu-motu-mentors
[06:48] <LaserJock> it is good to have generic docs
[06:49] <persia> LaserJock: Isn't that just the mailing list for the reception team?
[06:49] <LaserJock> but at some point people will get lost in the generic
[06:49] <LaserJock> I sure hope not
[06:49] <LaserJock> it was supposed to be like debian-mentors
[06:49] <LaserJock> a place for people to ask questions about packaging
[06:49] <persia> LaserJock: Is that still the way things are done after NewMentoring?
[06:50] <LaserJock> I'm not sure, but it'd be a shame if not
[06:50] <persia> LaserJock: Nothing has ever been sent to ubuntu-motu-mentors@ (or at least, nothing has passed moderation).
[06:51] <LaserJock> persia: sure, it hasn't been announced yet
[06:51] <LaserJock> that I know of
[06:51] <RainCT> Hello
[06:51] <persia> I still don't see why core-dev can't participate in the mentors list, if so inclined.
[06:51] <persia> Hi RainCT
[06:52] <persia> My (preliminary) dedicated MOTU list would be a team page, a faq, contact info, and the meeting notes.
[06:52] <LaserJock> persia: it's not excluding them, in fact their are lots of core-devs that will be involved
[06:52] <LaserJock> but we need to retain a space for MOTU run activities
[06:52] <persia> LaserJock: That's why I thought being part of merged docs would make sense.
[06:53] <persia> LaserJock: I'm just not sure what activities are exclusively MOTU.
[06:53] <LaserJock> MOTU School and MOTU Mentoring are MOTU driven activites
[06:53] <LaserJock> the documentation on packaging and on processes should be general
[06:53] <persia> Would that include the extracted HOWTOs from the MOTU/School sessions?
[06:53] <LaserJock> no
[06:53] <LaserJock> the HowTos should go to the general space
[06:54] <LaserJock> but scheduling, requests, info like that should be retained, IMO
[06:55] <persia> Scheduling?  Requests?  I'm not sure what you mean.
[06:55] <persia> Ah, about School?
[06:55] <LaserJock> yes
[06:56] <LaserJock> and with the Mentoring, until a general mentoring framework for Ubuntu exists it's still a MOTU driven process
[06:56] <persia> LaserJock: That makes sense.  School was one of the things that appeared to need the least cleanup, and was lowest on my list.
[06:57] <LaserJock> I believe Jono did wanted to do more with a across-Ubuntu mentoring thing
[06:57] <persia> I'll probably leave TODO as well (perhaps merging with Tasks), as this is not really core related.
[06:58] <LaserJock> however, I feel like we need to balance putting docs where the belong (if it's not MOTU-specific it shouldn't be in /MOTU) with keeping pages concrete and relavent
[06:58] <persia> LaserJock: Thanks a lot for the discussion.  I'll draft my ideas, and send to u-m@u.c for a wider audience.
[06:58] <LaserJock> MOTU is still the entry point for people wanting to become Ubuntu developers
[06:59] <LaserJock> so naturally we need to have more and lower-level documentation than core-dev
[06:59] <persia> LaserJock: I agree with the balancing, but I'm not sure people new to Ubuntu know that MOTU is the entry point.
[06:59] <LaserJock> persia: that's what I'm afraid of losing
[06:59] <persia> I also think that we'll get more and better contributors by generalising recruitment, and then pointing them to help with universe first.
[06:59] <LaserJock> if MOTU becomes 3 wiki pages and an IRC channel ...
[06:59] <persia> LaserJock: What are you afraid of?
[07:00] <LaserJock> that we'll end up gutting MOTU
[07:00] <LaserJock> MOTU is a force because we have a lot of projects and documentation
[07:01] <LaserJock> it is a great place for people wanting to get into packaging
[07:01] <persia> No, you're right.  I'm a big fan of cleaner documentation, but there's a sense of identity with MOTU that should probably maintained.
[07:01] <ScottK> And people doing Main stuff don't need a lot of this because they know already.
[07:01] <LaserJock> so I don't want to say "eventually /MOTU/ will die"
[07:02] <LaserJock> I'd rather say "Put docs that clearly aren't MOTU-specific in a general space"
[07:02] <persia> ScottK: Agreed, but I don't think those people search the wiki for docs.
[07:02] <LaserJock> so, my feeling is this:
 LaserJock: I agree with the balancing, but I'm not sure people new to Ubuntu know that MOTU is the entry point.  <---and  most  people use  packages from universe   thinking  they are safe  because  no  security  notices  
[07:03] <persia> LaserJock: I can understand, and certainly don't want to damage MOTU.  I guess I'm less sure of the distinction between MOTU identity and Ubuntu Developer identity.
[07:04] <LaserJock> 1) New documentation on packaging (packaging cookbook) or processes (SRU, sync request, merging) gets put in a general space
[07:04] <LaserJock> 2) Old packaging and process pages get evaluated and moved/reworded as appropriate
[07:05] <LaserJock> 3) Remaining MOTU/ wiki pages will evolve with time
[07:05] <AndyP> ScottK: you rock :)
[07:06] <LaserJock> with a "survival of the most used" process
[07:06] <ScottK> AndyP: Thanks.
[07:06] <LaserJock> pages in MOTU/ that we find we don't use we can get rid of
[07:06] <LaserJock> eventually as documentation outside of MOTU/ gets better we'll have less need for it
[07:06] <AndyP> i'm currently wrestling with some fine details of a python-support + cdbs package... XS-Python-Version etc.
[07:06] <ScottK> AndyP: Why are you not welshbyte just now?
[07:06] <persia> OK.  So if I'm annoyed at the current state of the docs, and rewrite it all, where does it go?  I want to balance my desire to avoid the confusion I see (and many different links to slightly different pages (e.g. SRU)) with the preservation of the MOTU identity.  If I rewrite everything, or encourage others to merge/rewrite, and these are "new" pages, that accelerates something that may not be best for MOTU identity.
[07:06] <LaserJock> but I feel like we shouldn't brute force it righ now
[07:07] <LaserJock> persia: well, my feeling right now is that packaging and process documentation (which I suspect is mostly what you're interested in) should be fair game
[07:08] <ScottK> persia: If you wait for consensus, you'll be arguing the same point for Gutsy + 2.  I'd say start working, lead the charge up the hill, and see if anyone follows.
[07:08] <AndyP> ScottK: i switched, i felt it better to use something like my real name... more personal, less confusing for others maybe... plus i'm tired of that old nick i gave myself about 4 years ago
[07:08] <persia> ScottK: Nah.  I work in Japan.  Consensus can be achieved.
[07:08] <LaserJock> pages like SyncRequestProcess are great
[07:08] <Hobbsee> persia: with a cluebat?  :P
[07:09] <ScottK> AndyP: OK.  I'll have to try and remember who you are now then.
[07:09] <LaserJock> especialy when processes in MOTU and Main don't differ much it makes a lot of sense to have just one page
[07:09] <ScottK> persia: Eventually.  You may have more patience than I.
[07:09] <AndyP> ScottK: don't worry, i won't go switching again (and apologies if i confused you) :)
[07:09] <LaserJock> persia: so, I say, go for it with packaging and process pages
[07:09] <ScottK> AndyP: No problem.  Figured it out with whois.
[07:10] <LaserJock> persia: if you aren't sure about if a page should be kept in MOTU-Land email -motu or ask in here
[07:10] <persia> LaserJock: OK.  I'll hit those to start (which probably doesn't need u-m@u.c review), and we can look again once there are less than 192 pages.
[07:10] <ScottK> persia: And I'd suggest as you edit, focus on make if you are -dev you do this, if you are not, you do it this way so people aren't confused about what process applies to them.
[07:11] <LaserJock> yes, essentially most process documentation falls into:
[07:11] <LaserJock> 1) Contributor
[07:11] <persia> ScottK: Two of my recent pages are MOTU/Contributing and MOTU/Sponsorship/SponsorsQueue.  Do you feel these strike the right balance?
[07:11] <LaserJock> 2) MOTU in Universe
[07:11] <LaserJock> 3) MOTU in Main
[07:12] <ScottK> persia: I'll look.
[07:12] <LaserJock> 4) core-dev in Main
[07:12] <LaserJock> it would be nice if we could shrink 1 and 3 into one and have
[07:12] <persia> LaserJock: I don't think I understand the difference between MOTU in main and Contributor in main.
[07:12] <LaserJock> there isn't for Main
[07:12] <persia> Ah yes.  WE can do that.  Certainly.
[07:13] <LaserJock> if our sponsorship processes are the same for Universe and Main it works out nicely
[07:13] <LaserJock> I think they pretty much are
[07:13] <persia> LaserJock: There're close.  I had several packages in main as a contributor, and I doubt I'm that much of an exception.  As long as the processes describe the variances, I think we're safe.
[07:13] <LaserJock> essentially it comes down to "Needs Sponsorship" or "Doesn't Need Sponsorship"
[07:14] <ScottK> LaserJock: Exactly.
[07:14] <persia> LaserJock: I see three categories "Sponsorship Request", "Direct Action", and "Sponsoring".
[07:14] <LaserJock> excellent, yes
[07:14] <LaserJock> actually doing the sponsoring needs documentation as well
[07:15] <LaserJock> I'm feeling like we need some "style" to differentiate the 3
[07:15] <persia> LaserJock: Thanks.  As I said, I don't know that I'll get to all of this for gutsy, but perhaps gutsy+1.
[07:15] <ScottK> Agreed.  I was a little lost at first with how to sponsor.
[07:15] <persia> ScottK: That's why I wrote the doc :)
[07:15] <LaserJock> it takes me some time to go through a doc and pick out where actually I need to read
[07:16] <LaserJock> perhaps color coded headings or an icon or something
[07:16] <LaserJock> just throwing out some ideas
[07:16] <persia> LaserJock: I prefer medium length docs with TOC for guidance.  Does that make sense to you?
[07:16] <LaserJock> kinda
[07:16] <LaserJock> my problem is we have quite a bit of different categories
[07:17] <LaserJock> making sure you can easily find the directions you need is important
[07:17] <LaserJock> so I need to find "Sponsorship Request for Main package" or "Sponsoring Univerese package"
[07:17] <persia> LaserJock: Right.  Some parallel navigation might be good.  Somethiing like a guide to contributing, a guide to doing, and a guide to sponsoring, each of which has heaps of links to the right places.
[07:18] <persia> LaserJock: I'd rather have one doc that tells the contributor to use apt-cache madison packagename to decide how to subscribe.
[07:18] <LaserJock> well, perhaps a well done TOC would suffice
[07:19] <LaserJock> well, if the Main and Universe policies are the same then it's pretty easy
[07:19] <LaserJock> like subscribe u-u-s if it's a Universe packagage and u-m-s if it's a Main package
[07:19] <LaserJock> bah
[07:20] <LaserJock> I'm way late in getting to work
[07:20] <LaserJock> I better head off
[07:20] <persia> LaserJock: At a contributor level, most of the processes are indistinguishable.  At a developer level, there are different thresholds as to what can be done, and at a sponsor level, they're the same again.  Have a good commute.
[07:20] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: beat the space-time continuum, and the speed limits
[07:20] <LaserJock> hehe
[07:20] <LaserJock> I'll bbl
[07:22] <RainCT> persia: desktop-file-validate is missing many new additional categories, may I add them?
[07:22] <persia> RainCT: That would be great.  Thanks.
[07:25] <nixternal> hi, I would like to be a master, I am a recovering Vista user who had this guy named Daniel, aka crumsin I think as my mentor
[07:26] <nixternal> and rjfinch was the leader of the mentors, and hobc was the leader of the leaders
[07:27] <RainCT> persia: when was this last updated? there are really a lot missing
[07:27] <persia> RainCT: Check the changelog for the last update.  I don't remember seeing anything since I patched it for Dapper.
[07:31] <sacater> LaserJock: can you vouch for me in #ubuntu-meeting tonight?
[07:32] <LaserJock> if I can make the meeting
[07:32] <ScottK> persia: Why would I have to join bugsquad to work in MOTU stuff?
[07:32] <LaserJock> you should join ubuntu-qa
[07:33] <LaserJock> but I don't see a requirement on bugsquad per se
[07:33] <persia> ScottK: Last I heard, one had to be a member of BugSquad (open team) to adjust the Status in LP.  Maybe I'm wrong.  Also, people with experience handling bugs help us.
[07:33] <ScottK> No, you don't.
[07:33] <LaserJock> ubuntu-qa is the team
[07:33] <ScottK> ubuntu-qa is needed for importance.
[07:33] <LaserJock> well, whatever
[07:34] <ScottK> Anyone with an LP ID can do status, AFAIK.
[07:34] <LaserJock> yes
[07:34] <persia> I still think MOTU contributors should work with bugs a bit before they do other things.  That can be changed if consensus disagrees.
[07:35] <ScottK> persia: What I'd suggest you do is drop the bugsquad stuff and add an up front sentence or two that says people might want to get some experience with triaging before they try and fix stuff.
[07:35] <persia> ScottK: bugsquad is open, and doesn't come with autosubscriptions.  It's a click away :)
[07:36] <ScottK> persia: That's true, but where's the value added.  I triaged bugs for a LONG time before I joined bugsquad.
[07:36] <LaserJock> we need to get people to ubuntu-qa though
[07:36] <persia> RainCT: Just to be sure, you might want to check http://www.freedesktop.org/software/desktop-file-utils/ to make sure you're looking at the latest code.
[07:36] <persia> LaserJock: Why do they need to be in ubuntu-qa?
[07:36] <LaserJock> I had a talk with bmurray about that
[07:36] <LaserJock> the Importance for one
[07:37] <LaserJock> and I think in the future there might be more attached to ubuntu-qa
[07:37] <LaserJock> like Release targeting
[07:37] <persia> I'm all for switching the bugsquad requirement to ubuntu-qa.
[07:38] <LaserJock> ubuntu-qa generally takes 20-30 bugs worked on
[07:38] <persia> That also meets ScottK's pont about demonstrating triage abilities before starting with MOTU stuff, as bmurray's only requirement (currently) is evidence of 5 well triaged bugs.
[07:38] <LaserJock> and you show say your best 5 to bmurray
[07:38] <LaserJock> he said he's really open with it
[07:39] <RainCT> persia: yea it's the same (or at least the changelog :P)
[07:39] <persia> Great.  I'll bump that to ubuntu-qa.
[07:39] <LaserJock> so I think we should document about ubuntu-qa and that it's a good thing to do
[07:39] <persia> RainCT: That's what I thought.  You and I seem to be the only ones who care (and Mr. Untz).
[07:40] <jussi01> hello peoples
[07:40] <LaserJock> now I'm really going away
[07:40] <persia> LaserJock: Not a recommended prerequisite?  We can always make exceptions for exceptional contributors (those who step up and start helping).
[07:40] <ScottK> Triage and packaging are two different things.  The often relate, but there shouldn't be requirements.
[07:40] <persia> ScottK: These are documented requirements only.  I don't think they should be enforced in launchpad.
[07:41] <persia> ScottK: We've heaps of new revisions that close a single bug.  I'd like to see more review of bugs in a package and preparation of a proper revision.  To do this, one needs to be familiar with LP.
[07:42] <ScottK> persia: I'd suggest decide if you are improving the process or improving the documentation.  I wouldn't do both at the same time.
[07:45] <RainCT> persia: are the categories for menu and desktop files the same?
[07:45] <ScottK> persia: The problem with non-comprehensive updates can (and I think) should be handled by UUS.  
[07:46] <persia> RainCT: I think so.  Check the spec to be sure.
[07:47] <RainCT> persia: can't find the categories on http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec . just noticed I was on menu-spec :s
[07:47] <persia> ScottK: U-U-S doesn't really do that now, and I can't remember it happening more than once or twice since I started contributing basic patches.
[07:47] <persia> RainCT: That matches my memory of the spec, so I'd say you are right.
[07:48] <ScottK> I think it's better to document in the MOTU documentation some where to check for other bugs (including in Debian BTS) that to make someone go through hoops for ubuntu-qa.
[07:48] <persia> ScottK: With regard to your experience, my memory is that you came with a specific issue you wanted fixed and significant technical expertise to fix it.  I'd consider you one of the exceptional contributors.
[07:48] <ScottK> persia: If you agree with that concept, I'll update the page.
[07:48] <persia> ScottK: That's part of the goal of the cleanup.  It's in MOTU/Contributing, but it should be other places as well.
[07:49] <persia> ScottK: Which concept?
[07:49] <hendrixski> I had those backporting questions because pbuilder wouldn't build my feisty hello deb in dapper .... 
[07:49] <hendrixski> turns out that was because of not enough diskspace in /dev/hda1
[07:49] <RainCT> persia: ok. should the entries be in the same order as in the website (in that list where I marked Encoding as deprecated), or doesn't it matter?
[07:49] <ScottK> Take out the go joinn team X stuff and say be familiar with LP and fix as many bugs as you can when you do an update.
[07:49] <hendrixski> it backported perfectly
[07:50] <ScottK> hendrixski: So you learned a lesson.  It's a good day when you learn something new.
[07:50] <hendrixski> didn't give me the libc error I was getting last time
[07:50] <persia> hendrixski: disk space is a tricky one.  One of the arguments for sbuild.  The big argument against sbuild is that it's changing now, and doesn't work :)
[07:50] <RainCT> well just found another deprecated item
[07:50] <hendrixski> ScottK, then every day has been a good day for me... just, frustrating at times 
[07:51] <hendrixski> persia, yeah, I keep meaning to try the sbuild in schroot instead of pbuilder
[07:53] <persia> ScottK: I don't really agree with that.  I think you've convinced me that ubuntu-qa is too hard, but I really think that joining bugsquad is easy (especially if you're given a link), and not very hard.  As for CoC and c-u-u, I think these are essential, and should not be dropped.
[07:53] <ScottK> persia: Another good point is if you fix a bug in Ubuntu, if it applies to Debian, report it in the Debian BTS and link to the bug in LP. Otherwise our diff just grows.
[07:53] <ScottK> I'm fine with CoC.
[07:53] <ScottK> persia: Maybe it was.  I was reading quickly.
[07:54] <ScottK> persia: Since bugsquad is an open team, what does bugsquad membership prove other than they know how to join a team in LP (u-u-c makes the same point)?
[07:54] <hendrixski> aaaaahhhh... but not it gives me the libc error when i do dpkg -i hello_##.deb
[07:54] <persia> ScottK: Yep.  In preparing patches it says "Check to see if the bug applies to the Debian package.  If so:" and provides instructions.  In preparing revisions, it says "While you are waiting, review the bugs that will be closed, to make sure that any that apply to Debian have Debian bugs open, and that any related Debian bugs have patches (you may need to extract individual patches from your diff to send to Debian - see Preparing Patches for hint
[07:55] <ScottK> persia: That sounds good to me.
[07:55] <ScottK> Sorry for missing it.
[07:55] <persia> ScottK: bugsquad is just a hint to encourage people to become familiar with bugs.  c-u-u is required for REVU access.
[07:55] <RainCT> persia: there are many entries I can't even find in the spec's
[07:56] <persia> RainCT: Yep.  That program doesn't get much attention.  If you only fix 50%, the freedesktop team will still thank you.
[07:57] <persia> ScottK: No worries.  I spent about three days reading it before posting, so I'm extra familiar :)
[07:57] <ScottK> persia: Then just say they ought to have some familiarity with bug triaging.  Bugsquad is pretty meaningless.  If you make the requirement join the team, people will point, click, and say that they meet the requirement.  Make the requirement what they should know, not what team they should join.
[07:58] <RainCT> persia: ok I found those, they are only for KDE. but I don't know where to get the version
[07:59] <persia> ScottK: The requirement is just pointy-clicky, but it requires action, and gives the contributor an extra icon for their LP account (which I think is an incentive).  The comment about bug management guidelines is in "First Steps".
[07:59] <persia> RainCT: The KDE .desktop specs?
[08:00] <RainCT> persia: nevermind, found it
[08:00] <persia> RainCT: OK.  Let me know if you get stuck - I'm happy to search if you need it.
[08:01] <ScottK> persia: All of which convinces me even more it shouldn't be a requirement.
[08:01] <persia> ScottK: Maybe.  I'll see if I can find the logs where the suggestion was made, to give you some context.
[08:02] <ScottK> OK.
[08:04] <RainCT> persia:  how can I fix this?         /* FIXME global variable cruft */  fatal_error_occurred = FALSE;
[08:06] <mathiaz> I'm trying to follow the Pbuilder how-to from wiki.ubuntu.com. I was wondering if sudo is always needed when using pbuilder ?
[08:07] <mathiaz> Can I setup a pbuilder environement under my home directory and not use sudo to build packages with pbuilder ?
[08:07] <Hobbsee> you dont have to put in sudo - but it will usually ask for a root p/w anyway, iirc
[08:08] <ScottK> mathiaz: Look at the pbuilder scripts here http://revu.tauware.de/~laserjock/ for what might be an easier approach.
[08:08] <persia> ScottK: I'm not finding it.  Sorry.  My memory (probably faulty at time time of day) suspects stevenk and hobbsee of participating in the discussion.
[08:08] <persia> RainCT: Where are you finding that?
[08:09] <ScottK> persia: No problem.  In any case I'm unlikely to be convinced that pointy-clicky join an open team is a good requirement.
[08:09] <LaserJock> persia: well, we don't really have prerequisites right now
[08:09] <persia> RainCT: Nevermind, I found it.  I think that's a hard one.  Don't worry about it.
[08:10] <LaserJock> and currently a person can do a whole lot of bug work without having to change the Importance
[08:10] <LaserJock> so I have a hard time making it mandatory
[08:11] <LaserJock> but it should surely be documented as a best practice and "If you want to be able to do X then you need to be a member of ubuntu-qa"
[08:11] <RainCT> persia: Okay, patch uploaded
[08:11] <persia> ScottK, LaserJock:  Essentially, I don't know a better way to strongly encourage people to work with bugs before working on other things.  ubuntu-qa is probably too stringent, but I'm not sure the recommendation in First Steps won't be ignored.
[08:12] <ScottK> persia: Adding the requirement to join an open team doesn't solve that problem.  I agree it's a problem.
[08:12] <persia> LaserJock: Actually, we do have a prerequisite of being a member of Contributors of Packages to Ubuntu Universe in order to use REVU.  I think the CoC threshold is also important.
[08:13] <ScottK> C-U-U shouldn't be required for doing fixes and merges.  Only for new packages.
[08:13] <persia> ScottK: I'd rather not drop the requirement until we find a better solution to the problem.  I think this may help, even if it's only a thin barrier to entry.
[08:13] <ScottK> I agree that CoC is important.
[08:13] <persia> ScottK: See the requirements for each group on the page.
[08:13] <LaserJock> persia: for MOTUship  though the only prerequisite I know of is Ubuntu Membership
[08:14] <ScottK> persia: I agree it's a problem, but your solution isn't a solution at all.  
[08:14] <persia> LaserJock: Yep.  One can probably even become a MOTU without doing anything on that page, if one is sufficiently active with library transitions, merges/syncs, etc.  I just think those are the things that we would most appreciate contributions about.
[08:14] <Hobbsee> !logs
[08:14] <ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[08:15] <ScottK> persia: OK.  But don't say required if it's not required then.
[08:16] <LaserJock> persia: that's why "best practice" and "good idea" are what I'd call it
[08:17] <persia> LaserJock: Maybe "Prerequisites" isn't the right word.  If you have another that fits well, I don't have any issues with changing it.
[08:18] <persia> Perhaps "Suggested Prerequisites"?
[08:18] <alfredoj69> hello everybody
[08:19] <ScottK> hello alfredoj69
[08:19] <ScottK> persia: Some of those really are prerequisites (note that the word means required, so suggested pre-requisites is a bit of an oxymoron).
[08:19] <persia> ScottK: Yep.  Please suggest something.
[08:20] <alfredoj69> I working on my first package, glc
[08:20] <ScottK> persia: I'd suggest a prerequisites list for things that are required and a suggested preparation section for good idea stuff.
[08:20] <persia> "Suggested Preparations"?
[08:20] <ScottK> Yes or Recommended.
[08:20] <alfredoj69> and the "make" process fails on a error
[08:21] <persia> (some people succeed in getting sponsorship for new software without c-u-u, so I think nothing is required).
[08:21] <persia> OK.  I'll change to "Recommended Preparation":.
[08:22] <alfredoj69> I contacted the developer but I haven't received an answer back
[08:22] <ScottK> persia: True, but they are truly operating out of process and so needn't really be considered.  The new package process is via REVU, so U-U-C is an actual requirement for new packages in my book.
[08:22] <alfredoj69> what do you do in that case?
[08:22] <ScottK> alfredoj69: What error?
[08:22] <alfredoj69> this is the error "static declaration of pis_vfs follows non-static declaration"
[08:23] <persia> ScottK: I agree, but I'd like to keep the format clean.
[08:23] <alfredoj69> I did some research and apparently this was a bug for gcc ver 3.4
[08:24] <ScottK> doko: Would you please have a look at Bug #117598?  If you agree with the bug, I'll fix it.
[08:24] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 117598 in python-defaults "adept crashed on exit" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/117598
[08:24] <ScottK> Oops.  Wrong bug.
[08:24] <alfredoj69> but I am running ver 4.1.2
[08:24] <ScottK> Bug #117599
[08:24] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 117599 in celementtree "celementtree provides redundant Python 2.5 packages" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/117599
[08:24] <persia> alfredoj69: This usually means that you have a syntax issue in your code somewhere, such that the compiler thinkgs you are rtying to redeclare the variable.  It may be a compiler error, but I can usually fix it by revewing the active namespace in the code.
[08:24] <ScottK> doko: That one ^^
[08:25] <ScottK> alfredoj69: IIRC gcc 4 is less forgiving than gcc 3.  It's probably something you need to fix.  I'd listen to persia.
[08:26] <alfredoj69> persia: I see, but how do I fix that?
[08:27] <superm1> hi everyone, any motu's up for a revu?
[08:27] <persia> alfredoj69: I presume that make is telling you where it dies.  If so, take a look at the section about 10 lines on each side of that place for a missing ;, }, ), or ".   Also, it's worth using grep to find the first "declaration", as that might be the problem instead.
[08:28] <RainCT> is it possible to set two different icons on a .desktop?
[08:29] <RainCT> ah well, nevermind, there were a .xpm and a .png provided upstream with different names but the .png has bad size anyways
[08:29] <alfredoj69> persia: I contacted the developer of the package informing him of the problem but I haven't received any answer yet
[08:29] <persia> RainCT: Why would you want to.  (Separately, I'll take a look at the patch in m y morning.  Expect a comment.).
[08:29] <persia> alfredoj69: Does this only happen in your package, or does it happen with the distributed tarball?
[08:30] <RainCT> persia: Nvm.   OK.   Btw, what GMT are you on?
[08:30] <persia> RainCT: +9 (it's late)
[08:31] <alfredoj69> persia: this happens with the distributed package. There is no debian/ubuntu package yet
[08:31] <alfredoj69> sorry distributed tarball
[08:31] <persia> alfredoj69: If you really want to hunt it, lint might also help, although 90% of the warnings are unimportant.
[08:32] <persia> Otherwise, wait for upstream (and put a note in the needs-packaging bug that upstream x.y.z doesn't compile).
[08:33] <alfredoj69> persia: In this case I can't go further
[08:34] <persia> alfredoj69: No worries.  Just note it in the needs-packaging bug so the next person can take advantage of your experience, and pick a new package.  If upstream gets back to you with the fix, you can have that one back.
[08:35] <alfredoj69> persia: yes good idea.  I was thinking of doing that
[08:37] <jwendell> Hi, any sponsor who could check my patch?
[08:37] <ScottK> jwendell: What bug?
[08:38] <jwendell> bug 117600
[08:38] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 117600 in circuslinux "create a desktop file" [Wishlist,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/117600
[08:39] <superm1> ScottK, would you be able to do a revu by chance?
[08:39] <jwendell> Hobbsee, around?
[08:39] <alfredoj69> persia: Thank you
[08:39] <ScottK> For?
[08:40] <superm1> ScottK, libhdhomerun, http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5277
[08:40] <Hobbsee> jwendell: You have sent me a contentless ping.  This is a contentless pong.  Please give a bit more information
[08:40] <jwendell> wow
[08:40] <Hobbsee> :P
[08:40] <Hobbsee> jwendell: the answer is "somewhat" - what's up?
[08:41] <jwendell> Hobbsee, could you check the patch for bug 117600?
[08:41] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 117600 in circuslinux "create a desktop file" [Wishlist,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/117600
[08:41] <LaserJock> well crap
[08:41] <LaserJock> somebody stole my bosses credit card info over the weekend
[08:41] <ScottK> superm1: I'll look and see if I think I know enough to have an opinion.
[08:41] <superm1> K thx ScottK 
[08:41] <ScottK> LaserJock: You aren't upset because you got caught are you?
[08:41] <Hobbsee> jwendell: i'm not really that awake, sorry
[08:41] <ScottK> ;-)
[08:42] <LaserJock> ScottK: no, it means they scour around looking at where it came from
[08:42] <jwendell> Hobbsee, np :)
[08:42] <jwendell> LaserJock, could you?
[08:42] <LaserJock> and I find security, both physical and internet, to be a rough thing
[08:42] <LaserJock> it's his university card
[08:42] <ScottK> Ah.  Makes sense.
[08:43] <LaserJock> everybody in his group uses it and knows the number
[08:43] <LaserJock> so I had to go see if anybody broke into my computer
[08:43] <LaserJock> and of course there was a nice brute-force over the weekend
[08:44] <LaserJock> but I don't see any evidence of them getting in
[08:46] <jwendell> RainCT, don't worry about that bug, i just opened it in order to attach tha patch ;)
[08:47] <DktrKranz> in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Sponsorship/SponsorsQueue, it is told to set merge requests as Confirmed
[08:47] <DktrKranz> is it the correct behaviour?
[08:48] <RainCT> jwendell: yes just seen it. you had assigned it to yourself, or? (thought I saw another name on it but already submited it :p)
[08:49] <jwendell> :)
[08:49] <ScottK> superm1: Are you committed to maintaining this package personally for eternity or do you want to set maintainer to MOTU?
[08:49] <superm1> I'm planning to maintain personally
[08:50] <ScottK> OK.  Just checking.
[08:50] <ScottK> That's legal, but not typical.
[08:51] <superm1> Once the mythtv team mailing list is eventually formed, I am actually going to set maintainer to be my entire team - but the list is still in rt's queue to be made
[08:51] <superm1> so in the interim, myself is fine
[08:53] <ScottK> superm1: Yes, although MOTU in the meantime would be equally fine.  Your call.
[08:53] <superm1> well this way, i'll get the bugs reported directly (rather than having to subscribe to the entire -motu mailing list)
[08:54] <superm1> so this way will be fine for me 
[08:55] <ScottK> superm1: You can subscribe yourself as bug contact in LP after it's uploaded.  That's what I do.  Being maintainer doesn't mean you get all bugmail for the package.
[08:56] <superm1> Ah okay.  Well i'll do that additionally then.  I'm still okay being listed as maintainer for it though for now though
[08:59] <afflux> keescook: guess that belongs to this channel... The problem is that I see about 14 security fixes between 2.0.2-2 (ubuntu dapper) and 2.0.10-1 (debian stable)
[08:59] <RainCT> jwendell: are you going to use the .desktop i posted? :)
[09:00] <hendrixski> hhhmmm, here's a solid question: a pbuilder with dapper which has cdbs 0.4.34 but a package needs cdbs 0.4.43 or higher...  what kinds of changes would I need to make to that package to backport it?
[09:00] <keescook> afflux: yeah, I'm not sure how to handle these bits of software.
[09:00] <superm1> ScottK, I'll be back in ~10-20 min if you leave any other comments in the channel i'll see them when i get back.
[09:01] <keescook> it seems like maybe going the SRU route is the best way to handle it?  That gives people a chance to do testing of the new version in -proposed ?
[09:02] <jwendell> RainCT, maybe
[09:02] <jwendell> RainCT, let's wait some review 
[09:05] <RainCT> Can somebody sponsor one of these? 117156 49443
[09:08] <afflux> keescook: I've never really done any packaging except merging. Guess I'm not the right man. I'll comment to the bug that I suggest a SRU. Anything else?
[09:09] <keescook> afflux: if you're willing, you can follow the SRU process.  it shouldn't be much more difficult that doing merges.
[09:11] <ScottK> afflux: If you get stuck, someone here will help you.
[09:12] <afflux> alright then.
[09:16] <ScottK> superm1: debian/copyright needs work too.  See http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/03/msg00023.html for some discussion on how to get it right.
[09:17] <jsmidt> Hobbsee, and others who know about kile not building.  Kile now builds with the diff I uploaded to bug report 117579.  Thanks.
[09:17] <jsmidt> Please merge.
[09:28] <Peaker> hi. How should I make patches to gutsy packages (specifically, scipy isn't installable currently) such that patches are accepted back in ubuntu?
[09:28] <Peaker> also, could use help in getting it fixed :)
[09:29] <Peaker> (how to change the version of a .deb? Can't find it in debian/control)
[09:29] <LaserJock> well, ideally you make a diff between two source packages
[09:29] <LaserJock> using a tool called debdiff
[09:29] <LaserJock> but first you need to make the new source package :-)
[09:29] <Peaker> ah. What's the difference between debdiff and a normal diff?
[09:30] <LaserJock> debdiff is smarter
[09:30] <LaserJock> but it still produces a diff
[09:36] <superm1> thx for looking over the pkg ScottK.  I'll work on debian/copyright tonite after work
[09:36] <ScottK> superm1: You're welcome.
[09:36] <ScottK> superm1: I didn't actually try and build the package, just looked at the diff, so there may be other issues yet.
[09:37] <superm1> well linda/lintian were clean for me on my test builds, and the package functions as expected for me, so hopefully not
[09:38] <ScottK> worksforme and conforms to policy often have a bunch of work in between.  I hope you're right.
[09:38] <AndyP> ScottK: does your package use cdbs?
[09:39] <LaserJock> worksforme is a good start though
[09:39] <ScottK> AndyP: Yes.
[09:39] <ScottK> LaserJock: Agreed.
[09:40] <AndyP> ScottK: this page says a bit about it http://wiki.debian.org/DebianPython/NewPolicy in the "CDBS + The Hard Way" section
[09:40] <ScottK> AndyP: Thanks.
[09:41] <AndyP> you're welcome
[09:41] <Peaker> numpy conflicts with scipy <= X-Y  and scipy is of version X, but I am not sure if they actually conflict, or why. I want to try to artifically change my scipy .deb version - how do I do that?
[09:43] <Peaker> What determines the .deb version?
[09:44] <geser> the last entry in debian/changelog
[09:44] <Peaker> ah. thought that was documentation only
[09:44] <Peaker> good way to force a changelog entry :)
[09:45] <Peaker> "Fixes FTBFS." -> ? :)
[09:46] <Peaker> does emacs have a mode for debian
[09:46] <Peaker> 's changelog?
[09:46] <superm1> Peaker, use dch
[09:46] <superm1> to create the new entry's structure
[09:47] <Peaker> dch?
[09:47] <Peaker> is that a package? or an emacs thing?
[09:47] <ScottK> Peaker: FTBFS == Failed To Build From Source
[09:47] <Peaker> ScottK: thanks
[09:48] <superm1> Peaker, its part of the devscripts package
[09:48] <ScottK> Peaker: dch is a devscript for debian changelog management.  Type dch from the top level dir of your package and it'll open debian/changelog in $EDITOR ready for you to enter new information.
[09:48] <Peaker> thanks
[09:49] <ScottK> Peaker: scipy used to have scipt and scipy-core.  numpy replaced scipy-core so if $VERSION is to low for numbpy, I'd try scipy-core (unless I completely misrembering which package that was).
[09:50] <siretart> Peaker: yes. just install 'devscripts-el'
[09:50] <Peaker> gutsy's kubuntu-desktop package is also fubar'd (via kdegraphics-kfile-plugins's dep on libpoppler1-qt on libpoppler1's old uninstallable version)
[09:50] <siretart> Peaker: I prefer it over dch
[09:50] <Peaker> siretart: ah cool
[09:51] <Peaker> siretart: what're the interesting emacs commands it exposes?
[09:52] <siretart> Peaker: they are mainly interesting for debian maintainers. you can expand the menu with the debian bugs of a package, and automatically generate lines to close bugs in the next upload
[09:53] <siretart> ah, there is also a pbuilder mode, but I don't use pbuilder
[09:53] <Peaker> siretart: anything special in it for changelog editing?
[09:53] <siretart> Peaker: create a new version with C-c C-e, a new entry with C-c C-a, and finalize with C-c C-f
[09:54] <siretart> that's what I mainly use from debian-changelog-mode
[09:54] <siretart> Peaker: you might be also interested in installing debian-el, it is quite handy to review binary .debs
[09:55] <siretart> can anyone please do me a favor and add this to his sources.list:
[09:55] <Peaker> "Most recent version has been finalized", what does that mean?
[09:55] <siretart> deb http://ppa.dogfood.launchpad.net/siretart/ubuntu gutsy main universe multiverse
[09:55] <siretart> deb-src http://ppa.dogfood.launchpad.net/siretart/ubuntu gutsy main universe multiverse
[09:56] <siretart> and try to install emacs-snapshot-common. or better, give me the output of 'apt-get update && apt-cache policy emacs-snapshot-common'
[09:57] <siretart> Peaker: yeah, it has an a bit annoying habit of not letting you touch the changelog with having it 'finalized'. 'unfinalize' it with C-c C-e
[09:57] <Peaker> siretart: what does finalizing mean though?
[09:57] <siretart> oh, new version was C-c C-v, 
[09:57] <Peaker> the package is perfect and should forever be untouched? :)
[09:57] <siretart> Peaker: finalizing means updating the "  -- Your Name <your@email.com>" line
[09:57] <siretart> with the current date
[09:58] <siretart> just press C-c C-e and see what happens
[09:58] <Peaker> ah, that specific version
[09:58] <Peaker> creating a new version is not a problem
[09:58] <afflux> siretart: sorry for german locales: http://paste.stgraber.org/1213
[09:59] <siretart> afflux: no problem, I'm german :)
[09:59] <Peaker> What does a version name like "0.5.2-7+b1" mean? 
[09:59] <siretart> afflux: damn. the package does show up in http://ppa.dogfood.launchpad.net/siretart/ubuntu/dists/gutsy/main/binary-amd64/Packages.gz. What's wrong here?
[09:59] <siretart> Peaker: there shouldn't be any +b1 packages in ubuntu
[10:00] <siretart> Peaker: there are in debian, though
[10:00] <geser> 0.5.2 is the upstream version, 7 is the Debian revision and +b1 is a binary rebuild (Debian specific)
[10:00] <Peaker> siretart: should that be converted to ubuntu1 instead? :-)
[10:00] <siretart> geser: are you in NM? ;)
[10:00] <siretart> Peaker: depends on what you want to do. in general, no
[10:00] <geser> no, just reading the debian-devel ML
[10:00] <siretart> :)
[10:01] <Peaker> well I am going to try that so I can see if numpy/scipy really conflict or if that's a bug in numpy's control
[10:01] <ScottK> Peaker: What version of Ubuntu are you running?
[10:03] <afflux> siretart: have no idea. the package isn't even listed with only your repo in the sources.list.
[10:03] <afflux> siretart: (well, okay, this was kind of expected after my log...)
[10:04] <geser> siretart: I'd guess your ppa archive is missing a Release file
[10:04] <Peaker> ScottK: yesterday's gutsy dist-upgrade or so
[10:05] <ScottK> OK.  What versions of scipy and numpy do you have?
[10:05] <Peaker> numpy: 1.0.3-1  scipy: 0.5.2-7ubuntu4
[10:06] <Peaker> weird, importing scipy creates a deprecation warning
[10:07] <siretart> afflux: are you on amd64 or i386?
[10:07] <afflux> am64
[10:07] <afflux> +d
[10:07] <Peaker> ScottK: scipy's test fails on a lot of invalid numpy's use. I think it depends on the wrong version of numpy
[10:08] <ScottK> Peaker: For gutsy, the package has been renamed python-scipy and scipy is an empty transitional package.  Not sure if that matters for what you are doing.
[10:08] <Peaker> ScottK: Sorry, I thought I should have said python-numpy and python-scipy
[10:08] <Peaker> ScottK: those are the packages I use
[10:08] <ScottK> OK.  Just making sure as scipy exists as a transitional package.
[10:09] <siretart> ah, I see you are all in #launchpad. let's continue that there
[10:09] <Peaker> I don't have scipy on my (apt-cache search)
[10:13] <ScottK> Peaker: The versions of python-numpy and python-scipy we have are both the current upstream versions, so I think it unlikely that they are not designed to be compatible.
[10:14] <Peaker> ScottK: well, apt-get build-dep and source didn't build out of the box
[10:15] <Peaker> ScottK: there was a minor bug in scipy's build, where it tried to import an inexistent symbol from numpy's installed package, and didn't use it
[10:15] <Peaker> so maybe the upstream version is some kind of nonworking snapshot?
[10:15] <ScottK> Peaker: Are you building the packages yourself or using the Ubuntu packages?  I meant the upstream release versions.
[10:16] <ScottK> Peaker: Both of them built on the Ubuntu buildd's, so I think it likely that they do build.
[10:16] <Peaker> At first I tried installing ubuntu's
[10:16] <Peaker> but scipy refused to install because numpy conflicts with it (that "b1" version thing I mentioned above)
[10:17] <Peaker> so I downloaded the soruce of both. numpy built out of the box. scipy didn't build out of the box, and after "fixing" numpy to not conflict with it, and fixing scipy's build problem, and installing it, its import raises a deprecation warning, and its tests fail
[10:17] <ScottK> Peaker: Where are you getting the b1 version.  That's not's what's in Gutsy.
[10:18] <Peaker> numpy's debian/rules has a conflict with scipy (<= b1)
[10:18] <Peaker> oops
[10:18] <Peaker> debian/control
[10:19] <Peaker> numpy's debian/control: "Conflicts: python-f2py, python2.3-f2py, python2.4-f2py, python-scipy (<= 0.5.2-7+b1), python-matplotlib (<< 0.90.0-1)"
[10:19] <Peaker> (numpy means python-numpy here, sorry for using the abbreviation)
[10:19] <ScottK> Right.
[10:21] <ScottK> Peaker: This may well be my bust then as I did that package update a few days ago.
[10:22] <Peaker> ScottK: ah. and are you sure the upstream version of scipy is a working one, that matches the numpy version?
[10:23] <ScottK> Peaker: No and the upstream version didn't change.  It was a Debian revision update.
[10:24] <Peaker> Well, according to http://www.scipy.org/Download, 0.5.2 indeed matches 1.0.3
[10:27] <ScottK> Peaker: It looks like the problem is we need some patches that have been added in Debian Experimental, but not released to Debian Unstable - http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/p/python-scipy/current/changelog
[10:27] <LaserJock> ScottK: indeed
[10:28] <LaserJock> I wonder why they don't have that in unstable though
[10:28] <LaserJock> some days I really wish they would just put scipy and numpy into one package
[10:29] <LaserJock> it's an even bigger mess on OS X
[10:29] <ScottK> Peaker: My advice is wait.  The dependencies in the package are the way they are for a reason.  If you don't want to wait, you can dget -x http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/p/python-scipy/python-scipy_0.5.2-9.dsc and build the experimental package locally.
[10:30] <Peaker> ScottK: I could probably build numpy/scipy upstream from source?
[10:30] <ScottK> Peaker: Just build the Debian experimental package for scipy and all should be well.
[10:31] <Peaker> ScottK: K, thanks
[10:31] <ScottK> Peaker: If not, it'd be good to know now while we can fix if for Gutsy.
[10:31] <Peaker> gutsy still has a long way to go before release, no?
[10:31] <ScottK> LaserJock: Is there any reason you can think of not to file a removal request for scipy-core for Gutsy?
[10:31] <ScottK> Yes
[10:32] <Peaker> any estimates on the chances of beryl being enabled by default in gutsy? :)
[10:33] <LaserJock> ScottK: the *only* thing I can think of is people with legacy scipy-core code
[10:33] <LaserJock> ScottK: it's been replaced by numpy upstream and it's really not as good anyway, from what I can tell
[10:33] <ScottK> LaserJock: When I read the upstream commentary on scipy-core it seemed like it barely even existed.
[10:34] <LaserJock> I'm not sure there
[10:34] <LaserJock> it existed when I first started using scipy
[10:35] <LaserJock> there was numeric, numarray, and then scipy-core
[10:35] <LaserJock> numpy is an attempt to pull together into one library
[10:36] <ScottK> OK.  I don't know enough.  I'll just leave it alone.
[10:37] <Peaker> if I dget a source package, any way to auto-get the build deps of that?
[10:37] <ScottK> Peaker: Chances, no.  Opinion, Oh $DEITY, I hope not.
[10:37] <Peaker> hehe
[10:38] <superm1> Peaker, if you build it in pbuilder - pbuilder will handle this for you
[10:38] <ScottK> Peaker: Yes.  I believe it's apt-get build-dep $packagename or something similar.
[10:38] <Peaker> ScottK: that works for source packages from the deb-src repository, no?
[10:39] <ScottK> Peaker: AFAIK it looks in debian/control, but I'm not sure.
[10:39] <ScottK> Hmmm  dunno.
[10:39] <Peaker> superm1: pbuilder wants to build as root and stuff :(
[10:39] <ScottK> superm1 is right about pbuilder.  That's generally a good way to go.
[10:40] <ScottK> Peaker: But it does it in a safe way
[10:40] <Peaker> k, thanks for the help.. see ya
[10:40] <superm1> Peaker, its the cleanest method to build package and *ensure* that you have all dependencies correct
[10:40] <TheMuso> Hey all.
[10:41] <Peaker> superm1: Okay, pbuilder build blah.dsc complains I dont have a base tarball.
[10:41] <superm1> Right you have to create one first, Peaker have you seen the packaging guide
[10:41] <Peaker> superm1: Nope, where is it?
[10:41] <superm1> ubotu knows about it i think.
[10:41] <superm1> !packagingguide
[10:41] <ubotu> The packaging guide is at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html - See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/New for information on getting a package integrated into Ubuntu - Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources - See also !backports
[10:41] <Peaker> its not long, I hope :)
[10:41] <superm1> well there is a section in there on pbuilder
[10:42] <superm1> that you can browse
[10:42] <superm1> its a page or two long
[10:42] <superm1> but the entire document is incredibly useful to anyone getting into packaging
[10:43] <RainCT> nixternal: Hi. You said on bug #117045 that there is an icon for QT Designer in the KDE icon set. but, if I don't include it, it wouldn't be there on systems with Gnome, or?
[10:43] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 117045 in qt4-x11 "Missing .desktop for qt4-designer" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/117045
[10:43] <nixternal> RainCT: not for Gnome it wouldn't be
[10:43] <nixternal> you would have to have kubuntu-desktop installed
[10:44] <bluekuja> guys, an information
[10:44] <bluekuja> how can I version 2.0 alpha release?
[10:44] <superm1> nixternal, you mentioned something a few days ago about Ubuntu Chicago.  how many guys would be interested you think in a mythtv talk?
[10:44] <bluekuja> e.g what syntax should I use
[10:44] <nixternal> RainCT: even then, Qt Designer definitely needs an icon file though, as even in KDE it isn't given one by default for some reason, you have to manually change it
[10:44] <nixternal> superm1: all of them :)
[10:44] <nixternal> superm1: especially at the College of DuPage LUG
[10:45] <nixternal> superm1: #ubuntu-chicago if you want to see how many are interested in there as well
[10:45] <ajmitch> morning
[10:45] <bluekuja> morning ajmitch 
[10:45] <superm1> nixternal, k.  Well after ULive, I'll be coming back for a few days in August
[10:45] <superm1> i can probably throw something together at that point
[10:45] <nixternal> ajmitch: I seen your funny...vista huh...ya ok i gotcha now ;p
[10:45] <bluekuja> ajmitch, do you know the correct syntax to version a 2.0 alpha release?
[10:45] <nixternal> superm1: rock on, let me know the dates and I will pimp a MythTV talk if possible
[10:46] <ajmitch> bluekuja: something like 2.0~alpha1-0ubuntu1 ?
[10:46] <bluekuja> ajmitch, thanks
[10:46] <ajmitch> lintian on REVU will complain loudly
[10:46] <bluekuja> :)
[10:46] <superm1> nixternal, okay sounds great. However if they want to spend a few bucks, i'm talking at ULive too :)
[10:46] <xxxxx1> bye guys
[10:47] <nixternal> hehe
[10:47] <imbrandon> superm1, you too ?
[10:47] <nixternal> bye xxxxx1 
[10:47] <imbrandon> seems we'll finaly meet
[10:47] <imbrandon> lol
[10:47] <superm1> imbrandon, yup.  you didnt hear?
[10:47] <superm1> yes indeed
[10:47] <superm1> imbrandon, your talking?
[10:47] <nixternal> ULive == to rich for my blood, plus I will be in sKool
[10:47] <imbrandon> nah but i got ticci for just general pimpness 
[10:48] <imbrandon> so i'll be there
[10:48] <superm1> neat
[10:48] <ajmitch> way too expensive for a couple of days
[10:48] <nixternal> hehe
[10:48] <nixternal> you think?
[10:48] <superm1> well imbrandon you and jono and I will have to grab some beers finally
[10:48] <ajmitch> well flying from NZ costs a bit too :)
[10:49] <imbrandon> ajmitch, yea
[10:49] <imbrandon> ajmitch, if oreilly wasent buying my ticci i wouldent be going
[10:49] <nixternal> ajmitch: driving or flying from Chicago costs a bit as well, but even then, the price of ULive might actually be more than the airfare
[10:49] <superm1> imbrandon, did you get orielly to pay your airfare and such too, or just ticket in?
[10:49] <imbrandon> superm1, definately, we'll have to drag jono to another bar with a "2 toothed woman singing keroke"
[10:49] <superm1> haha
[10:50] <imbrandon> superm1, everything but food
[10:50] <imbrandon> ( and beer )
[10:50] <superm1> wow imbrandon.  vee was only able to handle my ticket into the conference.  how'd you pull that off :)
[10:51] <imbrandon> dunno, they just offered and i took it :)
[10:51] <imbrandon> you got a hotel or anything yet ?
[10:51] <superm1> just bought my airfare the other day, but no hotel lined up yet
[10:52] <imbrandon> superm1, we should book the hotel togather and split it or something, or .... something
[10:52] <superm1> sounds like a great idea
[10:52] <superm1> (esp if its on orielly :))
[10:54] <ajmitch> imbrandon: lucky you
[10:54] <imbrandon> heh not really i would have rather been at spain
[10:55] <superm1> imbrandon, you going to be around for the CC meeting in 5 min?
[10:55] <imbrandon> supose so, i might go grab some food but i'll be there ~10 minutes into it
[10:56] <ajmitch> spain wasn't too bad
[10:56] <superm1> okay, well ubuntu mythtv team is going to be running up for being recognized by the CC and such
[10:56] <superm1> not sure how far in, we're near the top of the list
[10:56] <imbrandon> kk
[10:57] <imbrandon> i supose to vouch for sacater too iirc
[10:57] <imbrandon> :)
[10:58] <crimsun> superm1: are you interning at big blue this summer?
[10:58] <superm1> indeed crimsun 
[10:58] <crimsun> superm1: which building are you in?
[10:58] <superm1> bldg 40
[10:58] <superm1> third floor
[10:58] <crimsun> ah
[10:58] <superm1> ITAR area
[10:58] <crimsun> I was in 015-3
[10:58] <crimsun> under Mike Zanoni
[10:58] <superm1> oh yea?  Working on what?
[10:58] <crimsun> auiml
[10:59] <crimsun> ibm also has its on IRC intranet
[10:59] <superm1> ah software stuff :)
[10:59] <crimsun> its own IRC, even
[10:59] <superm1> yup rochester.irc.ibm.com :)
[10:59] <crimsun> there's an #ubuntu there, too :-)
[10:59] <superm1> i stick around in #lud, they do the ubuntu packages for ibm internal stuff
[10:59] <crimsun> I used to camp out at that Panera down the hill and leech wifi
[11:00] <superm1> haha
[11:01] <dabaR> Hi. Can someone help me change the place a .png file installs to?
[11:01] <superm1> crimsun, i'm with a hardware group up here, this is my second year in roch though.  I was with HGST last year
[11:02] <crimsun> superm1: nice
[11:03] <dabaR> I need to get a file install to /usr/share/pixmaps and it installs to /usr/share/pycentral/smartpm/site-packages/smart/interfaces/images/.
[11:04] <dabaR> I was told I need to create a smartpm.install file in debian/, but I am unsure of the exact contents.
[11:05] <LaserJock> dabaR: where is the .png file in the source?
[11:08] <dabaR> I am looking for it.
[11:09] <dabaR> hm...
[11:09] <dabaR> Would ls -R|grep *.png find it?
[11:09] <dabaR> I guess ls -R *.png is the same.
[11:10] <LaserJock> find . -name "*.png"
[11:10] <crimsun> freedesktop.org has specs for desktops
[11:10] <dabaR> /smart/interfaces/images/smart.png
[11:11] <dabaR> LaserJock: cool.
[11:11] <LaserJock> ok so in the .install file you need a line that has:
[11:11] <LaserJock> smart/interfaces/images/smart.png usr/share/pixmaps/
[11:12] <dabaR> I will try it.
[11:13] <crimsun> 'grats, superm1 et al.
[11:13] <superm1> thx crimsun 
[11:13] <ScottK> superm1: Congrats
[11:16] <tritium> congrats, superm1.  Can I make a mythbuntu suggestion?
[11:16] <superm1> thanks tritium sure.  shoot
[11:16] <tritium> superm1: if you end up modifying ubiquity, please allow it to resize the installer windows.
[11:16] <bmm> Ping for anybody willing to look at http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5295 and possibly advocate it.
[11:17] <tritium> my mythtv box is connected to my TV, and I always have to use alternate install images, as the installer window won't fit on the screen :)
[11:17] <superm1> tritium, we have a very invasive patch right now for ubiquity, so it will be changed eventually.  Are you thinking to scale with the resolution of the box?
[11:18] <tritium> superm1: if many people have their boxes attached to TV's, they'll likely have low resolutions until they enable restricted drivers.  The other issue with TVs is overscan, which can be accomodated in myth, but is a pain to address completely.
[11:19] <superm1> Oh indeed.  this can be a big issue
[11:19] <superm1> i see what you mean
[11:19] <superm1> I'll look into scaling with ubiquity.  Or at least having it work well on 640x480 for us
[11:19] <tritium> Yes, I lose the top and bottom panels beyond the display edges, so can't see the menu, etc.
[11:19] <tritium> superm1: great, thanks :)
[11:22] <crimsun> bmm: tools/*.sh have bashisms
[11:23] <crimsun> bmm: either change the hashbang to use /bin/bash explicitly, or fix them.
[11:23] <bmm> crimsun: that's upstream, right?
[11:23] <bmm> They are not part of the binary package
[11:23] <bmm> They are just in the upstream source and are not used in the creation of binaries.
[11:24] <crimsun> bmm: so they're cruft?
[11:24] <crimsun> bmm: even if they aren't used at all in the build process, they need to be fixed
[11:25] <bmm> crimsun: they are cruft, should have been called examples or something. Used in development of the program, but not distributed int the package.
[11:25] <bmm> crimsun: I
[11:25] <bmm> I'll post an upstream bug then.
[11:25] <bmm> Does that mean I would have to wait for a new release to get the package into ubuntu?
[11:25] <crimsun> however, they are in the source package itself, which is what's uploaded to Ubuntu.  We're accountable for everything in the source package.
[11:26] <crimsun> bmm: no, you can fix them and push the fixes back upstream.
[11:26] <bmm> Ok, so I just alter the source and do another "debuild -S -sa"?
[11:26] <crimsun> yes.
[11:26] <crimsun> granted I'm only about 1/4 through the source package.
[11:27] <bmm> thanks!
[11:28] <bmm> I'll keep my new update back until you have had your say ;-) Feel free to post a list in the REVU comment, then I can respond to everything point by point.
[11:30] <bmm> crimsun: do I need to need to mention the edits in the tools/* files, or is it implied by a diff?
[11:30] <blueyed> Is "sudo debootstrap --variant=buildd --arch i386 gutsy /var/chroot/gutsy/ http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/" supposed to fail currently?
[11:30] <blueyed> It results in: W: Failure trying to run: chroot /var/chroot/gutsy mount -t proc proc /proc
[11:31] <bmm> crimsun: isn
[11:31] <crimsun> bmm: you'd need to mention them in debian/changelog, but yes, they'll appear in the diff.
[11:31] <bmm> isn't it easier to just delete everything? They aren't used anyway
[11:31] <ScottK> blueyed: Make a Feisty chroot and then dist-upgrade it.  I believe the Gutsy breakage is known and being fixed.
[11:31] <crimsun> if you delete everything, you'd have to reroll the tarball, and that's really not a satisfactory rationale for rerolling
[11:32] <bmm> k
[11:32] <dabaR> LaserJock: That line did not do it.
[11:32] <crimsun> those are simple bugs that can be fixed; e.g., they're not files restricted by licenses
[11:32] <LaserJock> dabaR: oh, what error did it give? or where did it send it?
[11:33] <dabaR> Same place as before.
[11:33] <dabaR> I will double check that I did everything properly now.
[11:33] <dabaR> same place as before is /usr/share/pycentral/smartpm/site-packages/smart/interfaces/images/smart.png
[11:35] <dabaR> I have : "smart/interfaces/images/smart.png usr/share/pixmaps/" as the only line in debian/smartpm.install. It all seems done as you told me.
[11:36] <crimsun> dabaR: does your source package generate multiple binary packages?
[11:36] <dabaR> Yes.
[11:36] <dabaR> 2
[11:37] <RainCT> keescook: hi
[11:37] <crimsun> what is smart/interfaces/images/smart.png relative to?
[11:37] <keescook> hiya RainCT
[11:38] <dabaR> crimsun: to the directory apt-get source smart makes.
[11:38] <RainCT> keescook: do you remember how much time it was building until you got the error with debdiff #117045 ?
[11:38] <crimsun> dabaR: ok, so to the root of the extracted source?
[11:38] <dabaR> crimsun: Yes, I would say so.
[11:39] <crimsun> dabaR: and there's no ./usr/share/pixmaps/smart.png when you use dpkg-deb -c smart*deb ?
[11:39] <RainCT> keescook: (117045: "Missing .desktop for qt4-designer" https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qt4-x11/+bug/117045)
[11:39] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 117045 in qt4-x11 "Missing .desktop for qt4-designer" [Undecided,Confirmed]  
[11:39] <bmm> crimsun: Sorry to have to say this, but I'm going to have to go offline for a while. I hope to be able to read your comments tomorrow and I'll post a new version after fixing it all. Thanks!
[11:39] <crimsun> bmm: ok.
[11:40] <bmm> bye
[11:40] <dabaR> crimsun: no.
[11:40] <keescook> RainCT: all the way at the very end.  :P  you can do the build incrementally with "fakeroot debian/rules binary", it should skip the building part the 2nd time
[11:40] <crimsun> dabaR: can you post the pbuilder log?
[11:41] <RainCT> keescook: but it has to have finished building for that?
[11:41] <dabaR> I am not using that command at all, but if you still want it, and tell me whether it is in /var/log I certainly can
[11:41] <RainCT> keescook: because I'm falling asleep waiting for this to build xDD (like an hour until now)
[11:42] <crimsun> dabaR: pbuilder build --logfile somefile.txt your.dsc
[11:42] <keescook> RainCT: yeah, it's a reaaally big package.
[11:43] <RainCT> keescook: well I think I'll better let it run again tomorrow while I'm at school.. :p
[11:43] <RainCT> good night
[11:43] <keescook> g'night, thanks for checking into it!
[11:44] <dabaR> crimsun: with sudo?
[11:44] <dabaR> Cause without it seems it is not working properly: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/23170/
[11:46] <dabaR> Even with it it complains.
[11:46] <superm1> tritium, would you be able to download a mythbuntu alpha and let us know in #ubuntu-mythtv what does and doesnt appear right on your TV?  None of my tv's overscan, so I'm not sure how much things will need to be adjusted/resized
[11:46] <dabaR> I will try to set up the environment, crimsun, and get back to you.
[11:46] <tritium> superm1: sure, I don't mind doing that.
[11:46] <superm1> let me give you a link to a newer iso
[11:47] <superm1> than is posted on the site
[11:47] <tritium> superm1: what kind of TV do you have?  I'm surprised you don't get overscan issues.  Even modern HDTVs do.
[11:47] <superm1> tritium, http://www.mythbuntu.org/files/iso/mythbuntu-7.04~070529-i386.iso .  I just built it last night (and haven't even had a moment to test it myself)
[11:48] <tritium> superm1: okay, I'm at work right now (sshed in to support a membership application), but I'll d/l it tonight and test
[11:48] <superm1> tritium, samsung LNS3251D (VGA input at native res 1366x768)
[11:48] <superm1> awesome thanks
[11:49] <tritium> superm1: nice.  I've got a 720p JVC HD-ILA unit connected via HDMI
[11:49] <tritium> Yet, it defaults to 640x480 on liveCD
[11:49] <superm1> ah
[11:49] <superm1> does it have VGA input? or just HDMI(DVI)?
[11:50] <tritium> It's got VGA as well
[11:51] <superm1> you might want to give VGA a shot - its much more common to be able to accomodate the TVs exact native res
[11:51] <superm1> thats the exact reason i dont use hdmi on mine
[11:51] <tritium> I've not had much luck experimenting with Modelines.  Nor do I have much time for such things.
[11:51] <superm1> i dont even need a modeline
[11:51] <tritium> Ah, well, I may do that then.  Thanks.
[11:51] <tritium> superm1: you can run it at the native res?
[11:51] <superm1> in fact i do :)
[11:52] <tritium> Nice :)
[11:56] <StevenHarperUK> Hello Motu's - I'm trying to get my debain Package promoted...  Its at a stable state now : http://www.squeezedonkey.com/wiki/linux/index.php?title=Main_Page can anyone help please
[12:02] <ajmitch> StevenHarperUK: this is a new package you've done, that's not in debian or ubuntu?
[12:02] <StevenHarperUK> It snew
[12:02] <StevenHarperUK> My own code
[12:03] <StevenHarperUK> Visit that link
[12:03] <StevenHarperUK> There's a Screen shot
[12:03] <ajmitch> ok, you could put the source package up on REVU, after joining the ubuntu-universe-contributors team 
[12:04] <StevenHarperUK> Yeh im reading them instructions now
[12:04] <ajmitch> I see binary packages, but no source packaging there?
[12:04] <StevenHarperUK> I need to Join contributors team first : hows that done please
[12:05] <StevenHarperUK> I have deb packages
[12:05] <ajmitch> launchpad.net/~ubuntu-universe-contributors/+join I think
[12:05] <StevenHarperUK> Im not sure how to go about all this : I am new to debain packaging
[12:05] <ajmitch> yes, but do you have source packages?
[12:05] <dabaR> crimsun: OK, now I have a proper pbuilder log file, would you like to see the lines that contain "png"?
[12:05] <ajmitch> right, the ubuntu packaging guide may be a good start then
[12:06] <StevenHarperUK> I have an SVN server
[12:06] <ajmitch> I know
[12:06] <StevenHarperUK> at the moment I am building the debain package with an ANT script - I knowits not teh right way
[12:06] <ajmitch> no, to upload it to REVU it needs to be in a standard source package format
[12:06] <dabaR> StevenHarperUK: It is debian, btw.
[12:07] <ajmitch> I see you've got a control file, postinst, etc there
[12:07] <StevenHarperUK> Yeh its all hand-cranked at the moment
[12:07] <ajmitch> which could be reused, but aren't enough
[12:07] <ajmitch> there needs to be a debian/ directory at the root level, with a control, changelog, rules, postinst/preinst, etc
[12:07] <ajmitch> so that you can build the package with debuild -S
[12:08] <StevenHarperUK> right : debain - lowercase
[12:08] <ajmitch> it needs to be a reproducible build on anyone's system, debian/rules is a makefile with standard targets
[12:08] <ajmitch> the ubuntu packaging guide explains common ways of doing this
[12:09] <StevenHarperUK> OK : I understand most of that : like I say it is all new to me
[12:09] <StevenHarperUK> Do you have a URL please
[12:09] <ajmitch> !packagingguide
[12:09] <ubotu> The packaging guide is at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html - See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/New for information on getting a package integrated into Ubuntu - Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources - See also !backports
[12:09] <StevenHarperUK> Thanks thats bookmarked
[12:10] <StevenHarperUK> So I join contributes, get it packaged right, then get it onto REVU ?
[12:10] <ajmitch> yep
[12:10] <StevenHarperUK> sounds like another night or so
[12:11] <ajmitch> you may also want to look at python distutils as an upstream maintainer
[12:11] <StevenHarperUK> whats does that mean please
[12:11] <ajmitch> so that you can install from source with 'setup.py install', and it simplifies packaging
[12:11] <StevenHarperUK> ah right
[12:11] <StevenHarperUK> i'm new to python too :P
[12:11] <ajmitch> there are a number of examples out on the web
[12:12] <ajmitch> right :)
[12:12] <StevenHarperUK> I read that Python is the prefered language for Ubunut packages : so I learned it 
[12:12] <StevenHarperUK> Im a Java / C programmer
[12:12] <ajmitch> right, it means you wouldn't need to structure your source tree like src/usr/bin/usbadslmanager, too :)
[12:13] <StevenHarperUK> Is that such a bad thing?
[12:13] <ajmitch> yep
[12:13] <dabaR> probably distro dependent.
[12:13] <ajmitch> it really is confusing & unusual
[12:13] <StevenHarperUK> OK ill make that the next job then