[05:30] <xivulon> HI all,
[05:30] <xivulon> it's ago
[05:30] <xivulon> cjwatson, evand are you around?
[05:30] <evand> Hello ago
[05:30] <cjwatson> hi
[05:30] <xivulon> Hi evan
[05:31] <xivulon> Is colin around?
[05:31] <cjwatson> 16:30 <cjwatson> hi
[05:31] <xivulon> hi
[05:32] <xivulon> is it ok to discuss briefly on wubi and other matters?
[05:32] <evand> sure, go ahead
[05:32] <cjwatson> sure; did you see my spec updates recently?
[05:32] <cjwatson> (installer-for-windows)
[05:32] <cjwatson> booting directly from CD was the main one I think
[05:33] <xivulon> yep I am subscribed
[05:33] <xivulon> first some status report
[05:34] <xivulon> we had a few nasty bugs to take care of
[05:34] <xivulon> we still have not finished but we are almost there
[05:34] <xivulon> once wubi is fairly stable I can help you guys out to merge our changes upstream
[05:34] <cjwatson> do you have a patchset I can look at?
[05:35] <cjwatson> as far as lupin is concerned
[05:35] <xivulon> not yet colin
[05:35] <xivulon> lupin is yet to be considered stand-alone code
[05:35] <cjwatson> or, you know, code :)
[05:35] <cjwatson> it doesn't have to be final
[05:35] <xivulon> exactly
[05:35] <cjwatson> I'm capable of reviewing and possibly merging half-formed patches
[05:35] <xivulon> as mentioned I wanted to ship a stable wubi first
[05:36] <cjwatson> but I'd like to look at them ASAP
[05:36] <xivulon> ok
[05:36] <cjwatson> (guessing)
[05:36] <xivulon> yes
[05:37] <xivulon> on a side note, my wife is expecting a son, so I might be a bit busy over next few weeks
[05:37] <xivulon> cjwatson, as far
[05:38] <xivulon>  as lupin goes, I will have to split the code into initrd patches and live/alternate-iso patches
[05:38] <xivulon> now both functionality is merged
[05:38] <cjwatson> basically I'd like to be in a position where we can somewhat independently look at the changes that need to be made to core code
[05:38] <cjwatson> I don't mind if it's in a messy state right now as long as I know where to look
[05:38] <xivulon> you can start looking at lupin/devel branch that
[05:39] <cjwatson> it's very important that we be able to assess the feasibility of the changes pretty much now
[05:39] <cjwatson> ok
[05:39] <xivulon> delicate topiccs:
[05:39] <xivulon> we require ntfs-3g
[05:39] <xivulon> preinstalled
[05:39] <xivulon> if users uninstall it when they use wubi bad things happen
[05:40] <cjwatson> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/write-support-for-ntfs
[05:40] <xivulon> yep
[05:40] <cjwatson> I've all but approved that spec; the sticking point is that I don't like the proposal for locale configuration
[05:40] <xivulon> other gotcha is that the boot folder has to be a windows folder
[05:40] <cjwatson> could you expand on that/
[05:40] <cjwatson> ?
[05:40] <xivulon> it's the only way I could think of to upgrade kernel
[05:41] <xivulon> when you boot the kenrel initrd cannot be inside an image file
[05:41] <cjwatson> oh, I see. is that implemented in lupin at the moment?
[05:41] <xivulon> yes
[05:41] <cjwatson> ah, you munge the grub configuration
[05:41] <cjwatson> hmmm
[05:41] <xivulon> we do not install grub at the moment
[05:41] <cjwatson> could we arrange to ntfs-mount /boot instead?
[05:42] <xivulon> what do you mean exactly?
[05:42] <cjwatson> re lupin.postinst, I don't think we can merge that as it stands, as (due respect) it isn't really maintainable as part of the core; but we could look at teaching partman how to do loop-mounting and then it could be preseeded as a recipe
[05:42] <cjwatson> could the initramfs just arrange to mount /boot as a directory on the hosting NTFS filesystem?
[05:43] <xivulon> it does that already
[05:43] <cjwatson> ok
[05:43] <cjwatson> hmm, grub doesn't understand ntfs at the moment though
[05:43] <xivulon> there are a lot of parts of lupin that can be avoided
[05:43] <cjwatson> I assume you've patched that
[05:43] <xivulon> grldr does
[05:43] <xivulon> we are in touch with grub4dos devs
[05:43] <cjwatson> ok
[05:43] <xivulon> they have helped us out a lot
[05:44] <xivulon> and we provided lot's of corner cases ;P
[05:44] <xivulon> we basically use grldr to boot from within windows
[05:44] <cjwatson> my concern is to integrate this fully into Ubuntu, so replacing workarounds with more straightforward approaches in the core code
[05:44] <xivulon> there were several patches recently
[05:44] <xivulon> as mentioned lot's of workarounds can be avoided
[05:45] <xivulon> 1
[05:45] <xivulon> ntfs-3g installation (ditto)
[05:45] <xivulon> 2
[05:45] <xivulon> patch for clean reboot/shutdown
[05:45] <xivulon> now when you shutdown sendisgs is used
[05:45] <xivulon> that kills all userprocesses
[05:45] <xivulon> including fuse
[05:45] <xivulon> that does not go to well with us
[05:46] <cjwatson> ugh
[05:46] <cjwatson> that's one messy patch :)
[05:46] <xivulon> yep
[05:46] <xivulon> but if that is corrected properly upstream nothing is needed in lupin
[05:46] <xivulon> I have submitted a bug report
[05:46] <cjwatson> perhaps it would be better to get the fuse processes into the same session as sendsigs
[05:47] <cjwatson> the session support is there to make that kind of thing unnecessary
[05:47] <xivulon> I did not know about session support
[05:48] <xivulon> what is relevan is that once shutdown is handled properly upstream that is a bit of nasty patches off lupin
[05:48] <cjwatson> see killall5(8)
[05:48] <xivulon> 3
[05:48] <xivulon> mkinitramfs patches
[05:49] <xivulon> now lupin replaces /etc/initramfs-tools
[05:49] <xivulon> so that it can clone itself
[05:49] <cjwatson> yes, those clearly should be integrated
[05:49] <cjwatson> clone itself?
[05:49] <xivulon> exactly
[05:50] <xivulon> clone so that when you generate a new initrd it is a lupin-initrd
[05:50] <xivulon> capable of booting from loopmounted file
[05:50] <cjwatson> err, right, but that should be part of the core initramfs' features, right?
[05:50] <xivulon> correct
[05:50] <xivulon> only 3 is the relevant part
[05:50] <cjwatson> ok, so stepping back a little bit
[05:50] <cjwatson> it seems likely that we will proceed by gradually fixing/integrating things piece by piece
[05:51] <cjwatson> until, essentially, lupin disappears
[05:51] <xivulon> yes
[05:51] <cjwatson> because it's entirely integrated in other bits of Ubuntu
[05:51] <cjwatson> does that make sense?
[05:51] <xivulon> that was my plan to begin with
[05:51] <cjwatson> will it be possible to gradually update a branch of lupin to track what's been integrated in gutsy?
[05:51] <cjwatson> so we know we're done when it's empty :-)
[05:52] <xivulon> yes
[05:52] <cjwatson> ok, great
[05:52] <xivulon> who do I bother to update sendisgs / initramfs-tools?
[05:53] <xivulon> can I send the patches to you?
[05:53] <cjwatson> sure, though it doesn't sound to me like sendsigs itself should be changed at all
[05:53] <xivulon> I'll have to read about session support
[05:54] <cjwatson> you'll probably need to read a fair bit of source code
[05:54] <cjwatson> might be worth talking to Keybuk, the upstart autho
[05:54] <xivulon> n/p/
[05:54] <cjwatson> r
[05:54] <xivulon> what channel is he usually on?
[05:54] <cjwatson> actually, rather than sending them to me, send them to ubuntu-installer@lists.ubuntu.com
[05:54] <cjwatson> #ubuntu-devel
[05:54] <cjwatson> mail is sometimes better
[05:55] <xivulon> ok
[05:55] <xivulon> any q about lupin?
[05:55] <evand> I like that idea.  It'll give me the opportunity to see what's changing.
[05:55] <cjwatson> the partman patches are probably the scariest bits
[05:55] <cjwatson> I know partman very well, and can work on that
[05:55] <xivulon> yep
[05:56] <cjwatson> I expect it will be easier to ask questions once we have some experience
[05:56] <xivulon> I have an openbug to improve the code there but never got down to do it
[05:56] <cjwatson> sigh, I'm going to have to actually bite the bullet and get a Windows installation, aren't I
[05:56] <evand> hahaha
[05:56] <xivulon> good
[05:56] <cjwatson> not so much, I've been Windows-free since 1998 ;)
[05:57] <cjwatson> well, no, 1999 I think
[05:57] <xivulon> well I do not have windows
[05:57] <evand> 99 for me, but testing m-a required me to build XP images for testing.  MSDNAA for the win.
[05:57] <xivulon> either
[05:58] <xivulon> I test lupin on linux
[05:58] <cjwatson> I wonder where givre is; I was hoping to talk with him about the ntfs spec
[05:58] <cjwatson> I might just have to make the change I want and approve it ;-)
[05:58] <xivulon> can I assume that ntfs-3g is going to be there?
[05:58] <xivulon> for gutsy?
[05:59] <cjwatson> I think you have to; it's clearly a prerequisite
[05:59] <evand> makes sense, aren't we in overtime as far as the spec cutoff goes?
[05:59] <cjwatson> yeah
[05:59] <cjwatson> and implementation-wise, ntfs-3g doesn't seem all that scarily difficult now
[05:59] <xivulon> I wanted to discuss the windows GUI as well
[06:00] <cjwatson> sure
[06:00] <xivulon> Don't know if any of you has experience with nsis
[06:00] <cjwatson> I do not
[06:00] <xivulon> It's very nice for "standard" installers
[06:00] <evand> negative, though I have some experience programming in a Windows environment, if that counts for anything.
[06:01] <xivulon> But it becomes quite nasty for customized installers
[06:01] <xivulon> I am myself a python programmer
[06:01] <xivulon> (mostly)
[06:01] <xivulon> And we wanted to move to python
[06:01] <xivulon> Not sure if that will happen for gutsy, gutsy+1 or never
[06:02] <cjwatson> well, that obviously fits general Ubuntu preferences well
[06:02] <cjwatson> (although personally I use whatever comes to hand ...)
[06:02] <xivulon> And it's cross platform
[06:02] <xivulon> So we can have wubi ported to mac and linux
[06:02] <xivulon> With relatively little changes
[06:02] <cjwatson> I'm not concerned about that in the short term
[06:02] <cjwatson>  (I realise you might be)
[06:02] <xivulon> I just mentioned that
[06:03] <xivulon> Realistically we'll probably stick to nsis for this release
[06:03] <xivulon> even though we might create some python prototype
[06:03] <cjwatson> TBH, I have deep reservations about the loop-mounting approach in general, and steered clear for a long time
[06:03] <cjwatson> because it doesn't really scale to permanent installations
[06:03] <cjwatson> but I realise that it is an expedient approach for this particular use case
[06:03] <cjwatson> and avoids the whole "partitioning is scary" thing
[06:04] <xivulon> migration should not be so much difficult
[06:04] <xivulon> I mean from a virtual disk to a real partition
[06:04] <cjwatson> evand has plans there, but in general, any migration is harder than no migration
[06:04] <evand> yeah, we tried to make wubi more of a "try ubuntu" thing because of the lack of a clear migration to a permanent solution (m-a aside)
[06:04] <cjwatson> and migration is always going to be pretty hard if you're short on disk space
[06:04] <xivulon> Sure
[06:05] <xivulon> But all I mean is that is not unfeasible
[06:05] <cjwatson> anyway, I'm not arguing against using it from Windows, just saying I don't really want to see it presented by Ubuntu as a good option for running from Linux
[06:05] <cjwatson> obviously you guys can do what you like :-)
[06:05] <evand> we being those of us at the spec meeting
[06:05] <xivulon> We had several thousands of new ubuntu users and lots of them then decided to go with a full installation ;)
[06:05] <cjwatson> and there are some useful cases for partman being able to loop-mount things anyway
[06:06] <cjwatson> so at this point, I'm easy
[06:06] <xivulon> crypto-loop?
[06:06] <cjwatson> that too, though that's sort of separate
[06:06] <cjwatson> that's already done in partman-crypto
[06:07] <xivulon> All the things in lupin.postinst should be incorporated into ubiquity
[06:07] <xivulon> That was only a quick hack
[06:07] <cjwatson> one concern I have about lupin/wubi, which I'm not sure made it to you, is that it doesn't appear to identify itself properly
[06:07] <cjwatson> I get people showing up here asking for support
[06:08] <cjwatson> ideally, it should identify itself in /var/log/installer/version on the target system, so that it's more easily identifiable
[06:08] <xivulon> Ok I'll take care of that
[06:08] <cjwatson> obviously that's not so much of a concern if it's fully integrated
[06:08] <cjwatson> thanks
[06:08] <cjwatson> sorry we didn't manage to connect up properly at UDS, btw
[06:08] <xivulon> I apologize myself
[06:09] <xivulon> I have been told my voice was very loud
[06:09] <cjwatson> there was apparently some VoIP difficulty, and then the scheduling got horribly confused because we were both trying to schedule items for roughly the same thing
[06:09] <xivulon> I could not hear well
[06:09] <cjwatson> plus I was ill one day
[06:09] <xivulon> And when you cannot hear you assume that the other end cannot hear well either...
[06:09] <evand> xivulon: we had quite a bit of trouble hearing you
[06:09] <cjwatson> VoIP at conferences has always been a bit hairy
[06:09] <cjwatson> never mind
[06:09] <xivulon> So I was shouting in the mic...
[06:10] <cjwatson> there's a tendency to mutter when you think you can see everyone
[06:10] <cjwatson> even if you intellectually know there's somebody on the phone, it doesn't get to the visceral layer
[06:11] <xivulon> what is the time schedule?
[06:11] <xivulon> +/-
[06:13] <evand> for?
[06:13] <xivulon> spec/code
[06:13] <xivulon> I had the impression we are quite late
[06:14] <xivulon> colin there is one more issue
[06:14] <evand> Specifications were due today.  Code: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyReleaseSchedule , though Colin might want certain pieces in at certain points, you'd have to consult him directly on that.
[06:15] <xivulon> Let me know if there is something I can help with in the short term
[06:15] <xivulon> the other issue is that at the moment lupin finds the host drive via heuristic
[06:16] <xivulon> that was due to overcome the issue of mapping windows drives to grub devices
[06:17] <xivulon> if that is addressed properly that too is much less code to make it into lupin
[06:17] <cjwatson> I don't really have enough background to know about that
[06:18] <xivulon> me neither but I am sure that the grub4dos devs will be able to help on that
[06:18] <xivulon> As for the downloader we are now using metadl
[06:18] <cjwatson> mm, Ubuntu ISOs don't have metalink support though
[06:18] <cjwatson> unless it is cleverer than I last heard
[06:18] <evand> there's a spec for that, I believe
[06:18] <cjwatson> there is
[06:18] <xivulon> http://hampus.vox.nu/metadl/
[06:19] <cjwatson> that shouldn't be a dependency if you already have the physical CD or have downloaded an Ubuntu ISO though
[06:19] <cjwatson> so it doesn't need to block installer-for-windwos
[06:19] <cjwatson> ows
[06:19] <xivulon> just mentioning since I saw bittorrent mentioned
[06:19] <cjwatson> I changed that to metadl in at least one place
[06:19] <xivulon> we had bittorrent originally
[06:19] <cjwatson> following your comment
[06:20] <xivulon> ok
[06:20] <cjwatson> could you ensure the spec is kept up to date with anything we've discussed here that isn't in there?
[06:20] <cjwatson> perhaps the lupin spec
[06:20] <xivulon> metadl developer is helping us out as well
[06:20] <cjwatson> I noticed that the lupin spec linked to another launchpad page where it really should link to a wiki page
[06:20] <cjwatson> the "more information" link
[06:20] <xivulon> I linked to the lupin project
[06:20] <cjwatson> it would be much better if it linked to an Ubuntu wiki page, and had most of the stuff currently in the status whiteboard moved there
[06:21] <xivulon> but I will do a lupin spec
[06:21] <cjwatson> yes, that's not appropriate as the "more information" link
[06:21] <cjwatson> that is intended to link to a wiki page
[06:21] <cjwatson> the status whiteboard is just for brief notes
[06:21] <xivulon> apologies for the abuse then
[06:21] <cjwatson> then we could have a lot of this discussion recorded there
[06:21] <cjwatson> that's ok, I just wanted to make sure you knew
[06:22] <xivulon> shall we keep frontend wiki in the same place?
[06:22] <cjwatson> sorry, which?
[06:23] <xivulon> I mean topics relating to the windows GUI
[06:23] <xivulon> I guess they should be in the installer-for-windows spec
[06:25] <xivulon> One question
[06:26] <xivulon> never mind
[06:27] <cjwatson> oh, uh, hmm
[06:27] <xivulon> Do you want to keep also a stand alone installer?
[06:27] <cjwatson> installer-for-windows should be the minimum necessary to get this integrated and working and acceptable, I think
[06:27] <cjwatson> xivulon: what, you mean d-i and ubiquity?
[06:27] <xivulon> in which context?
[06:27] <cjwatson> 17:27 <xivulon> Do you want to keep also a stand alone installer?
[06:28] <xivulon> What I mean an installer that is downloaded standalone and supports multiple distros at once
[06:28] <cjwatson> oh, right
[06:28] <cjwatson> that's up to you
[06:28] <xivulon> Like the one we currently have
[06:29] <cjwatson> that seems like the sort of thing you can quite reasonably continue to provide, and we have no reason to object
[06:29] <xivulon> Considering the current interface, what changes do you envisage?
[06:30] <xivulon> I have no problem if the wubi project is integrated within ubuntu
[06:30] <xivulon> In fact I'd be glad
[06:30] <cjwatson> I have to be honest and say I have not yet seen the current interface ...
[06:30] <cjwatson> so it's pretty hard to have that conversation :)
[06:31] <xivulon> http://cutlersoftware.com/ubuntusetup/wubi/en-US/screenshots.html
[06:31] <xivulon> The original idea was to make a 1 click installer
[06:31] <cjwatson> ok, one concern I have is that a lot of validation code is going to have to be duplicated with that design
[06:31] <cjwatson> and that's something that gets updated quite a lot
[06:31] <xivulon> Since most settings can be autodetected and the system can be uninstalled
[06:32] <cjwatson> I would rather that the wubi interface just asked for the bare minimum (language and keyboard if it can't autodetect those, and the Windows side of partitioning), and left the rest to ubiquity
[06:32] <cjwatson> specifically user/password setup
[06:32] <xivulon> That's reasonable
[06:32] <xivulon> What about virtual disk creation?
[06:33] <cjwatson> that sounds like something that wubi needs to take care of
[06:33] <evand> Is there any reason why you have a separate /home?
[06:33] <cjwatson> it's outside the sandbox that ubiquity will see
[06:33] <evand> just out of curiosity
[06:33] <xivulon> We were thinking about eliminating it
[06:33] <xivulon> Main reason was security
[06:33] <cjwatson> ideally, wubi would hand ubiquity a virtual disk and ubiquity would partition it
[06:33] <xivulon> If a user reinstalls he won't loose his settings
[06:33] <cjwatson> but I don't know if that's possible
[06:33] <xivulon> and it's easy to backup
[06:34] <cjwatson> that's not security, that's safety or something
[06:34] <cjwatson> don't confuse the two
[06:34] <xivulon> sure
[06:34] <cjwatson> yes, that's a reason we often get that request; I've avoided it so far because repartitioning if you get it wrong is such a pain
[06:34] <evand> not to completely side track the coversation, but if I may nit pick one thing, I'm not sure your users are going to know what swap space is.
[06:34] <cjwatson> I can see that it might be less of a problem with a virtual disk, though I don't know the details
[06:34] <xivulon> We were going to remove it as well in fact
[06:35] <evand> ah :)
[06:35] <cjwatson> anyway, I have a visitor so need to wander off for a bit
[06:35] <xivulon> Next design will have six selectors in one single dialog
[06:35] <xivulon> ok thanks a lot
[06:35] <cjwatson> I appreciate your continued efforts
[06:35] <xivulon> I am glad to be helpful
[06:36] <xivulon> I'll setup a lupin wiki
[06:36] <evand> yes, thank you xivulon, I am quite excited about this spec.  And congratulations on the son!
[06:36] <xivulon> thanks a lot
[06:39] <xivulon> evan do you have any question for me?
[06:39] <evand> Not at the moment, but I know your irc nick and email address.
[06:40] <xivulon> great
[06:40] <evand> I'll be in touch, should anything arise.
[06:41] <xivulon> I'll try to bother Keybuk then, his turn now ;)
[06:41] <evand> curious, the icons for mounted partitions we've chosen to hide are appearing on the desktop again
[06:41] <evand> he's a nice guy, you shouldn't have any trouble there :)
[06:41] <xivulon> the host partition is always mounted
[06:41] <xivulon> since it contains /boot
[06:42] <xivulon> that is a windows folder
[06:42] <evand> in Ubiquity we tell gconf to ignore showing mounted partitions on the desktop as it tends to get a bit crazy with os-prober and friends.
[06:43] <xivulon> there is no particular code we use to create the icon
[06:43] <xivulon> I though it was some standard ubuntu feature
[06:44] <evand> I'm not sure I follow.  In GNOME if you mount a partition, it will appear on the desktop.  That's the default behavior, afaik.
[07:16] <xivulon> evand, yep that is what I meant, since we always mount the host device and have no code to alter the gnome behaviour
[07:36] <evand> gotcha
[07:46] <CIA-19> ubiquity: evand * r1500 ma/ (122 files in 11 dirs): Merged with trunk.
[11:26] <xivulon> Hi colin
[11:26] <xivulon> still around?
[11:31] <xivulon> evan?
[11:35] <cjwatson> xivulon: couple of IRC things you need to know
[11:35] <xivulon> I know
[11:35] <xivulon> what you are going to say
[11:35] <xivulon> cjwatson
[11:35] <cjwatson> xivulon: firstly, if you want to get somebody's attention, use their nick at the start of the line, like "cjwatson: hi"
[11:35] <xivulon> should I havc used
[11:35] <xivulon> second thing I do not know
[11:35] <cjwatson> xivulon: secondly, please just ask the question you want to ask rather than waiting for somebody to say they're here first - people tend not to watch IRC all day and you can end up with lots of round-trip delays otherwise
[11:36] <cjwatson> I'm going to bed soon, but go ahead and ask :)
[11:36] <xivulon> Just wanted to tell you that I edited the wiki
[11:36] <xivulon> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LupinMerge
[11:36] <xivulon> I did it in a rush, I will re-read that tomorrow
[11:37] <xivulon> but at least formally I met the deadline ;P
[11:37] <cjwatson> thanks, that's hugely useful
[11:37] <xivulon> feel free to edit, I might have forgotten something of what was said
[11:38] <cjwatson> I'll have a more detailed look tomorrow, but that looks very good indeed; thanks!
[11:39] <xivulon> you very welcome
[11:39] <xivulon> I wanted to add some questions to the installerforwindows
[11:39] <xivulon> re the interface
[11:39] <xivulon> the GUI
[11:40] <cjwatson> go ahead and edit them in
[11:41] <xivulon> done
[11:42] <xivulon> Is that ok if we keep the wubi name for the windows installer?
[11:42] <xivulon> That is an acronym for Windows UBuntu Installer
[11:42] <xivulon> As a project name I mean, then branding and title will be Ubuntu of course
[11:43] <cjwatson> as a project name, sure
[11:43] <cjwatson> as far as branding goes, we actually kind of like to keep branding minimal
[11:43] <xivulon> It would show continuity with our efforts
[11:44] <cjwatson> if you fire up ubiquity, you'll notice it doesn't mention Ubuntu at all
[11:44] <cjwatson> this saves having to worry about translations of Ubuntu into other languages and suchlike
[11:44] <xivulon> exactly same thing
[11:44] <cjwatson> and branding those translations to talk about Edubuntu or whatever
[11:44] <xivulon> We do not use "Wubi" name much either
[11:44] <cjwatson> continuity> absolutely, I respect that
[11:45] <xivulon> now it's in the version and folder name
[11:45] <cjwatson> that's certainly fine
[11:45] <xivulon> http://cutlersoftware.com/ubuntusetup/wubi/en-US/screenshots.html
[11:46] <cjwatson> mm, I suppose the branding requirements are arguably sort of different in wubi's case
[11:46] <xivulon> the banner will go of course
[11:46] <cjwatson> in the case of ubiquity, you've booted an Ubuntu CD and selected "Install", so it's already pretty clear that you're installing Ubuntu!
[11:47] <cjwatson> but wubi is sort of pretending that Ubuntu is an application you're installing on Windows, and it's conventional for that to mention the application name, AIUI
[11:47] <cjwatson> so I guess I don't really mind
[11:47] <xivulon> The dialog title reads simply Ubuntu Setup
[11:48] <xivulon> I am not sure how to convey the fact that it is not a "long-term" setup
[11:48] <xivulon> without explaining technical details
[11:48] <evand> demo?
[11:49] <xivulon> That might do
[11:50] <xivulon> The only issue I have with that is that most people are from the windows world
[11:50] <xivulon> where demo means that you get partial functionality for free, and full functionality for fee
[11:50] <evand> yeah, that crossed my mind as well
[11:50] <evand> hrm
[11:51] <xivulon> Anyway there are 4 months to think about that
[11:52] <evand> there are some great usability people in the Ubuntu community who it might help to consult on that.
[11:52] <xivulon> We'll certainly do so
[11:52] <evand> but yeah, I wouldn't get caught up in that detail for now :)
[11:52] <cjwatson> agreed
[11:52] <xivulon> Anything else I can do for you tonight?
[11:53] <evand> cjwatson: real quick: any word back from daniel on orca?
[11:55] <cjwatson> evand: yeah, he fixed it earlier
[11:55] <cjwatson> current CDs are built with that
[11:56] <evand> ah, thanks!
[11:57] <xivulon> sorry lost connection before
[11:57] <xivulon> good night everyone
[11:59] <evand> night xivulon