[12:17] <manchicken> Sure.
[12:17] <Lure> Riddell: ;-)
[12:18] <Lure> Riddell: and we have agenda full of artwork and usability ;-)
[12:18] <manchicken> I'm proposing a very simple, easy to understand program where VERY common issues are listed, and with one click you could solve the problem.
[12:18] <_StefanS_> help center thingy..
[12:18] <manchicken> Not really that...
[12:18] <mhb> manchicken: I've been thinking about this app, and I'm not sure whether it will be as useful as desired
[12:19] <Lure> manchicken: I like the idea to not need console, but I do not think this should be central place for fixes - rather applications should cope with such cases better
[12:19] <mhb> I'm with Lure on that one
[12:19] <Lure> for your example: adept should propose to run dpkg-configure
[12:19] <manchicken> Lure: Sure.
[12:19] <mhb> and it's hard to guess what problems will be the most common for a release
[12:19] <fdoving> mhb, lure, that's fine, applications don't cope, then what do we do?
[12:19] <Hobbsee> certainly the adept stuff is
[12:19] <Lure> otherwise it looks like we have broken system that needs fixes ;-)
[12:19] <fdoving> fix aall applications?
[12:19] <manchicken> Lure: My biggest concern is that in the short term that is less likely to take hold.
[12:20] <DaSkreech> Lure: I think that what he wants is for the person to not touch command line
[12:20] <manchicken> And while we're waiting for these features, users are left being told to hit the command line.
[12:20] <_StefanS_> you got all sorts of issues keeping the common issues list updated
[12:20] <Hobbsee> but a generic "fix my wifi" is a bit....well, if it's using knetworkmanager - often that requires killing NetworkManager, starting it again, then doing other buggery.  also, you'd need root for that
[12:20] <Lure> manchicken: if we can implement fix in menu, we can also add it to application effected, right?
[12:20] <Riddell> it wouldn't be hard to change adept to offer that fix(/hack) as an option
[12:20] <manchicken> I'm not talking about a permanent fix, or a once and for all fix.
[12:20] <Lure> Riddell: really? couldn;t notifier do that?
[12:20] <manchicken> I'm talking about something that we can put into place where we can have short-term fixes until the real fix is present.
[12:21] <Riddell> Lure: spose so
[12:21] <DaSkreech> manchicken: do you think this will come across as a We know this is broken we aren't going to fix it here is a band aid ?
[12:21] <Lure> manchicken: my concern is that it would look worse than it is
[12:21] <Jucato> I suggest that this one fix app would still be able to display terminal output, like what Adept has (can't remember the term for it)
[12:21] <manchicken> Lure: I think writing a collection of well-presented shell scripts will be easier than making knetworkmanager reload network interfaces and renew DHCP leases.
[12:21] <Lure> manchicken: true it would help for user with problem, but people just explore the menu and try to run stuff to try it out
[12:21] <toma> DaSkreech++
[12:22] <manchicken> DaSkreech: I don't think people will see it that way.  Instead I think people will realize that there's something wrong when they are required to go to the command line.
[12:22] <Riddell> another problem is a lot of issues would only come to light after release
[12:22] <manchicken> Lets face it, if a user has to go to the command-line to fix a problem, that is a failure on our part.
[12:22] <Hobbsee> DaSkreech: we just did that for the unmount dialog.  *shrug*
[12:22] <manchicken> This is a desktop distribution.
[12:22] <Lure> manchicken: I know that some issues are more "common", therefore workarounds are fine
[12:22] <manchicken> Users should be able to do everything without command-line interaction.
[12:22] <DaSkreech> manchicken: I'm behind you for that. But what's the main problem we are trying to solve
[12:22] <Lure> manchicken: I just do not want to have central place for them
[12:22] <toma> manchicken: but you can not get an app which prevents that
[12:22] <fdoving> manchicken: if we look at support, it's way easier to do commandline support, than GUI. explaining where to click is a pain. giving a command is easier. i'd prefer an dcop/dbus interface on that one-click-app :)
[12:23] <manchicken> DaSkreech: Getting folks to fix problems without command-line interaction.
[12:23] <DaSkreech> ryanakca: but we need bandaids
[12:23] <_StefanS_> fdoving: I think it would be a good idea, why not expose what is actually run if you need to do some debug/help on it ?
[12:23] <DaSkreech> ryanakca: how long have we been telling people how to unlock the apt database?
[12:23] <Hobbsee> *** can we look at what we can add, and how, as opposed to whether this is a good idea or not?  it seems most people, at least, think it's a good idea ***
[12:23] <yuriy> Lure: i think when issues are "more common" that's when workarounds are NOT fine. for rare issues, workarounds are fine
[12:23] <ryanakca> DaSkreech: yeah
[12:24] <manchicken> Do we have dozens of c++ developers sitting around ready to patch programs for these complicated problems?
[12:24] <Lure> manchicken: clicking again in knetworkmanager on interface/wlan does ifdown/ifup, btw
[12:24] <DaSkreech> manchicken: Would something like the Examples folder suffice?
[12:24] <mhb> I don't want to discuss it now, but I had an idea based on this one ... a collection of one-time scripts people can use with one click
[12:24] <mhb> I even had a mockup somewhere
[12:24] <kwwii> mhb: might be a good idea as long as it does not fsck things worse than before
[12:24] <mhb> http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oneclickmockupoc3.png
[12:24] <fdoving> automatifix :)
[12:24] <manchicken> DaSkreech: My idea initially was to have an icon that sent you to a folder with .desktop entries that launched shell scripts to fix the problems.
[12:25] <Lure> yuriy: I agree, but example (dpkg-configure -a) is a common issue, with clear solution
[12:25] <Hobbsee> fdoving: twitch.
[12:25] <DaSkreech> fdoving: ha ha :)
[12:25] <mhb> kwwii: not necessarily fixes, little helper scripts
[12:25] <Lure> yuriy: and it is not considered bandage
[12:25] <manchicken> I don't even want to have to have a separate UI for things.
[12:25] <DaSkreech> manchicken: that could be updated as we added more fixes?
[12:25] <manchicken> I'd just like to see konq display icons for clicking.
[12:25] <kwwii> this sounds like something we could add to the help system in a very prominent place
[12:25] <yuriy> how is that not a bandage? dpkg shouldn't randomly fail. and if it does, it should be fixed invisibly to the user
[12:25] <manchicken> DaSkreech: Don't see why not.
[12:26] <_StefanS_> yuriy: not everything is perfect, you got to admit that
[12:26] <fdoving> manchicken: icons for clicking that opens a konsole and runs scripts with -ex ?
[12:26] <yuriy> also, what "common problems" are we actually talking about other than dpkg-configure -a?
[12:26] <Hobbsee> i wonder about running dpkg --configure -a whenever adept closes - especailly if it could be detected that it was a crash
[12:26] <DaSkreech> yuriy: Fixing network, fixing sudo lockouts, fixing apt issues
[12:27] <Lure> yuriy: agree, but this will never happen (dpkg randomly failing) ;-)
[12:27] <manchicken> fdoving: Ideally these scripts would do nothing but fix the problem and exit with no command line displaying.
[12:27] <fdoving> manchicken: then i'm 100% against the whole idea.
[12:27] <toma> maybe someone should make a complete list of things which should be fixed by this app
[12:27] <_StefanS_> that thing could also be used to re-apply standard kubuntu settings and enable/disable some of the bling automatically
[12:27] <ryanakca> Hobbsee: well, KCrash (or whatever the backtrace app is called) knows when it's a crash... maybe implement something that recognizes solely an adept crash and then runs dpkg --configure -a    ?
[12:27] <Jucato> I'm against not showing what's going on. at least like Adept's Dpkg view
[12:28] <_StefanS_> you should be able to see details if needed
[12:28] <manchicken> fdoving: And I'm 100% against us telling users "oh, just enter this one simple command."
[12:28] <manchicken> Because to many users, there is no such thing as one simple command.
[12:28] <DaSkreech> toma: we have a list somewhere
[12:28] <manchicken> It's black, and ugly, and unknown, and scary.
[12:28] <toma> manchicken: windows also refers to cmd now and then
[12:28] <Hobbsee> ryanakca: sounds sane, manchicken would have to give input
[12:28] <_StefanS_> manchicken: I agree
[12:28] <Lure> manchicken: the problem is that you will never cover all cases
[12:29] <yuriy> ryanakca, Hobbsee: i think adept should run dpkg-configure on start up when it's not working. it already gives an error, just needs a button to run the fix.
[12:29] <DaSkreech> toma: almost never
[12:29] <ryanakca> hmmm... I guess
[12:29] <Lure> yuriy: +1 (or adept_notifier)
[12:29] <DaSkreech> toma: and I know people who feel dirty if they have to do that in windows
[12:29] <toma> DaSkreech: yes they are, look at the knowledgebase answers
[12:30] <_StefanS_> toma: you cant really compare, as alot of the "repair" is already available in the windows gui
[12:30] <DaSkreech> toma: it's like someone on Linux from foreveer being told oh you have to edit your registry look for this alien string and find this alien key and switch it
[12:30] <fdoving> manchicken: well.. an option to make it verbose then? - if this is ment as a tool for us to support users, we need something more than 0 or 1, success or fail.
[12:30] <yuriy> how would users access such an app?
[12:30] <Lure> DaSkreech: yes, but we shoudl add "Troubleshoot" stuff near the failure and not to central place
[12:30] <DaSkreech> toma: it may work but it scares the hell out of you
[12:30] <Lure> DaSkreech: you want to hide such stuff ;-)
[12:30] <DaSkreech> Lure: Yeah
[12:31] <toma> DaSkreech: again, i would like to see a complete list of things that you want to fix with that app.
[12:31] <Riddell> well, I see lots of potential problems with it, but of course if someone codes it we can't stop them, and it would be interesting to see the feedback that gets
[12:31] <Lure> I agree with toma: we first need a list, then we can agree what make sense and what is the best way to address it
[12:31] <DaSkreech> toma: we shoudl have wikied it :(
[12:31] <Riddell> mhb's mockup does look interesting
[12:31] <DaSkreech> toma: it's floating on gobby.ubuntu.com
[12:31] <Lure> I belive that each bandage may need special handling
[12:31] <DaSkreech> Lure: ++
[12:31] <Riddell> you could even do hot new stuff to update it after release (scary idea)
[12:31] <DaSkreech> Riddell: Errm no :)
[12:32] <DaSkreech> and I'm a GHNS pimp
[12:32] <fdoving> Riddell: very scary, as i guess most scripts will need root access.
[12:32] <_StefanS_> fdoving: cant you make a way of undoing changes also ?
[12:32] <_StefanS_> fdoving: like a rollback feature
[12:32] <mhb> Riddell: yes, something like that ... but I know it's scary
[12:33] <toma> i think Riddell means using hot new stuff to add new scripts to the application. Not to scary for me.
[12:33] <mhb> Riddell: the scripts would have to be reviewed
[12:33] <Riddell> our main focus should be on actually fixing the issues, the adept one does seem entirely fixable even if with a hack in adept rather than outwith it
[12:33] <Riddell> mhb: of course
[12:33] <DaSkreech> Riddell: as far as I know GHNS currently doens't have versioning
[12:33] <Riddell> so code away if you want, but no guarantees it'll ever go on the CD
[12:33] <DaSkreech> which makes it a terrible choice
[12:33] <fdoving> toma: of those scripts are to be run as root - does hotnewstuff have some kind of md5sum checking thing?
[12:34] <DaSkreech> Riddell: Could it be one of those things we ask people to try out of their own will first?
[12:34] <toma> fdoving: i believe not anyone can add scripts blindly
[12:34] <Riddell> lets move on
[12:34] <Riddell> Sho_: your item
[12:34] <fdoving> toma: i'd like some checksum-verification, really.
[12:34] <DaSkreech> So the consensus is code it and we shall see?
[12:34] <Lure> manchicken: can we add a table to your wiki with issue:reason:solution kind of proposal
[12:35] <Sho_> Alright
[12:35] <toma> fdoving: you can make that ;-)
[12:35] <manchicken_> I **HATE** wireless networking.  It is the asscrack of all networking.
[12:35] <manchicken_> Lure: Sure.  Not a problem.
[12:35] <fdoving> toma: yep :)
[12:35] <manchicken_> Lure: I was gonna make you work on it anyway ;)
[12:35] <_StefanS_> manchicken_: you should buy some descent equipment ;)
[12:35] <Sho_> The issue at hand is that Kubuntu ships a bunch of default settings and modifications to Konversation which deviate from upstream, and which upstream (that is me and my co-developers) are unhappy with
[12:35] <Lure> manchicken: then it will be empty table ;-)
[12:35] <manchicken_> _StefanS_: For wireless networking there is no such thing.
[12:35] <DaSkreech> manchicken_: I have a cord and some tin cans
[12:35] <_StefanS_> manchicken_: I disagree.
[12:35] <fdoving> manchicken_: i liked your konqueror + .desktop idea. simple and very convenient.
[12:36] <Lure> Sho_: examples?
[12:36] <Sho_> We've previously been talking to our Kubuntu liason Hobbsee who has agreed to bring those issues up, but as things have stagnated for a while I've decided to become a little more proactive
[12:36] <Riddell> wheesht people, listen to Sho_
[12:36] <Sho_> Here's some detail on what exactly we have problems with: http://konversation.kde.org/kubuntu-issues.txt
[12:36] <Hobbsee> Sho_: thanks.  uni stuff and crap :(
[12:36] <Riddell> ooh system tray shouldn't be on by default? yay!
[12:36] <toma> Sho_: the list looks sane to me, we should fix some things.
[12:36] <DaSkreech> ha ha
[12:37] <DaSkreech> First thing I thought
[12:37] <Sho_> I'm told Riddell hates systray icons, so #1 should be a nobrainer ;)
[12:37] <mhb> yes
[12:37] <kwwii> lol
[12:37] <Sho_> :)
[12:37] <toma> Sho_: last one as well
[12:37] <Hobbsee> 1 & 4 are no brainers
[12:37] <Lure> Sho_: first: I did not agree with some default changes, however I am not sure how can upstream really work with distro about such customization of defaults
[12:38] <Hobbsee> 3 tonio_ will argue with you over, that the default theme doesnt make implicit sense - but i'm not sure that terms like "voice" etc do either
[12:38] <yuriy> what's wrong with the systray icon? :(
[12:38] <DaSkreech> why was 3 done?
[12:38] <Lure> Sho_: kubuntu does quite some changes from default kde, but this is imho good as some new ideas can be tested with wider audience
[12:38] <fdoving> Sho_: good points.
[12:38] <manchicken_> Sho_: My concern here would be that these seem like normal things that many distros do to many different programs.
[12:38] <DaSkreech> yuriy: Riddel hates any and all System tray icons :)
[12:38] <manchicken_> Sho_: So why is it such a big deal?
[12:39] <DaSkreech> yuriy: after a while staring at windows I agree
[12:39] <manchicken_> Most of these things are just packaging.
[12:39] <DaSkreech> Sho_: I think that konvi and kopete fall in near the same category
[12:39] <Riddell> Sho_: the only one I disagree with is tabs on the left are good because you can fit more in.  I have 140 irc windows open, that works as well as it can with a listview on the left but not with tabs along the bottom
[12:39] <Sho_> manchicken_: Perhaps we care about Kubuntu more than about other distros for the same reasons you probably think it's a really neat distro? ;-)
[12:39] <fdoving> yuriy: you can put konsole in systray. check out kstart :)
[12:39] <DaSkreech> Sho_: Kopete I think should have a icon tray maybe konvi shoudl as well?
[12:39] <kwwii> Riddell: I agree with that as well, but all bottom-up text based apps should have the same tab placement for usability reasons
[12:39] <Sho_> manchicken_: Fact is, Kubuntu is the KDE-centric desktop distro people go for these days, and whatever Konvi Kubuntu ships shapes the public image of Konvi to a great degree
[12:39] <fdoving> Riddell: you're a special case :)
[12:39] <Jucato> yuriy: or modify the K Menu entry :)
[12:39] <_StefanS_> I like konversation in tray by default
[12:40] <kwwii> new users expect tabs to be in the same place
[12:40] <DaSkreech> Riddell: I don't think you are a standard user case
[12:40] <manchicken_> Sho_: But my concern is that upstream and distro have always been a bit of a separation of powers.  This seems like there may be a bit of a boundary crossing to me.
[12:40] <kwwii> we should definitely ask usability peeps about tab placement
[12:40] <Riddell> it seems not usual for people to have more than 10 irc windows open
[12:40] <Hobbsee> I want a decision that "this is how we're running konversation", and that the default settings dont change after that, without consensus from the KC.  This is ridiculous
[12:40] <manchicken_> I'm but a lowly geek though.  I'll yield to others, that's just my $0.02.
[12:40] <Lure> kwwii: +1 - left side channels are really useful for heavy irc users
[12:40] <Sho_> manchicken_: Our stance is that we spend more time thinking about our defaults than distributions and that distributions shouldn't change what we come up with on a whim
[12:40] <Lure> kwwii: geeks ;-)
[12:41] <toma> Riddell: can you fix konsole? I have more open then fits in there..
[12:41] <kwwii> Lure: exactly :-)
[12:41] <manchicken_> Sho_: Why not?
[12:41] <Sho_> manchicken_: For example, the tab position change was clearly done on a whim by maintainer preference (I get it, it looks cooler - I wrote it, I like it too), which I don't think is a good enough reason
[12:41] <Lure> kwwii: I was fighting against tab placement change, but lost :-(
[12:41] <manchicken_> Sho_: Why does it matter to upstream konversation though?
[12:42] <DaSkreech> manchicken_: Kubuntu is high profile
[12:42] <Sho_> manchicken_: see [00:41]  <Sho_> manchicken_: Fact is, Kubuntu is the KDE-centric desktop distro people go for these days, and whatever Konvi Kubuntu ships shapes the public image of Konvi to a great degree
[12:42] <kwwii> everone needs a 1024x768 screen to understand why the left tabs waste space as well
[12:42] <Riddell> Sho_: it's not just the looks, don't you run out of space with bottom tabs?
[12:42] <Lure> Sho_: it is better only for heavy IRC user (like us), but not for typicall kubuntu user that may use it only to get support in #kubuntu (one channel)
[12:42] <DaSkreech> Hold on. Everyone agrees on point 4 ?
[12:42] <manchicken_> Sho_: So does that mean that konvi now gets to dictate how kubuntu packages konvi?
[12:42] <kwwii> Riddell: non-geeks don't have that many channels open
[12:42] <Hobbsee> DaSkreech: yes
[12:42] <ryanakca> point 4 is fine by me
[12:42] <Riddell> DaSkreech: sure
[12:43] <Lure> Riddell: you do,m bt not typicall user that wants to get help by Jucato in #kubuntu ;-)
[12:43] <DaSkreech> manchicken_: no he's asking us to look at the default changes
[12:43] <Sho_> Riddell: Yes, that's one of the reasons people like the treelist over the tab bar. However I'd argue that new users tend not to open so many views that they run into the problem, and by the time they do, they'll probably be in a position to find the preference themselves.
[12:43] <Riddell> manchicken_: they're asking, not dictating
[12:43] <Jucato> heh :)
[12:43] <kwwii> manchicken_: no, but being the representative kde dist is a very important thing
[12:43] <Riddell> kwwii: but non-geeks don't use irc
[12:43] <neversfelde> ah
[12:43] <kwwii> Riddell: but they still need things to be usable on first use - geeks love to change things
[12:43] <_StefanS_> kwwii: good point !
[12:44] <neversfelde> yeah
[12:44] <mhb> Riddell: well, they might start, a lot of (k)ubuntu help points them to IRC
[12:44] <ryanakca> I think #2 can be easily fixed...
[12:44] <manchicken_> Yes, but we need to distribute how we think is best to distribute, not how we think upstream would like us to distribute.  If both of these goals align, fantastic.  If they're in conflict, I would say upstream takes the back seat.
[12:44] <toma> i would vote for tabs at bottom for the default, but this discussion will be endless... seele?
[12:44] <Hobbsee> ryanakca: sure it can - but we dont want to change it yet again.
[12:44] <Sho_> manchicken_: We're not in a position to dictate, but it'd be swell if we could discuss the issues we have?
[12:45] <Riddell> manchicken_: mind that if we annoy upstream too much we end up not having any software
[12:45] <kwwii> manchicken_: sure, but this is a matter of where the tabs are, not something amazingly hard to prove usability-wise
[12:45] <fdoving> i'd say do what the konversation developers have spent hours deciding. what some packager did in 4 minutes doesn't really matter that much.
[12:45] <manchicken_> Sho_: Sure.  But some of these things seem to be of rather little consequence.  I'm just concerned that konversation--a program that I am now using and have been using for quite some time--may be trying to control downstream distribution a little too much.
[12:45] <kwwii> we should ask seele and other usability peeps on this (but I know what they are going to say)
[12:45] <mhb> manchicken_: don't forget, "downstream loves them (KDE)"
[12:45] <Jucato> manchicken_: while distros have the right to change defaults and customize, it doesn't mean of course that we do so on a whim. It also doesn't mean that just because we have decided on something that it totally closed for discussion w/ upstream
[12:46] <Sho_> manchicken_: Surely you don't find it odd that the developers of software have a stake in how it's going to be presented to the users?
[12:46] <Sho_> manchicken_: We're not your wall socket code supply, we make apps
[12:47] <Riddell> I suspect we've run out of new stuff
[12:47] <mhb> yeah
[12:47] <Hobbsee> toma: has a point about debian
[12:47] <Jucato> ryanakca: but we don't have preferences, we have settings :P
[12:47] <DaSkreech> Nicklist?
[12:47] <Riddell> should we do a council vote?
[12:47] <ryanakca> DaSkreech: channel list
[12:47] <Jucato> exercise new powers :)
[12:47] <mhb> I suggest waiting for the usability folks
[12:47] <mhb> to comment on it
[12:47] <DaSkreech> ryanakca: Right I'm asking on opinion
[12:47] <manchicken_> I'm just gonna pull out of this conversation and go AFK for a bit.
[12:47] <DaSkreech> Should it be changed?
[12:48] <Hobbsee> Riddell: fairly sure tonio_ will throw a cow if we do, as he feels strongly on this, and we dont have seele's input either, which i'd prefer to see
[12:48] <mhb> like Hobbsee said
[12:48] <Sho_> Notably Ellen Reitmayr from the KDE usability team is a participant in Konversation's development process, and an active Konvi user.
[12:48] <ryanakca> Riddell: I'd put it on the ML, and if no concensus by next meeting, then KC can vote
[12:48] <Lure> mhb: +1 on usability review
[12:48] <Hobbsee> and/or el
[12:48] <Sho_> Haven't heard any complaints from her about the bottom default so far.
[12:48] <nixternal> OK, I am back..sorry for that
[12:48] <kwwii> don't worry, I'll give tonio the love he needs
[12:48] <DaSkreech> Sho_: wait? the squares one?
[12:48] <ryanakca> wb nixternal
[12:48] <Lure> Hobbsee: I think imbrandon was pushing for tree and not Tonio_
[12:48] <Hobbsee> Lure: right
[12:48] <nixternal> that was a quick drive
[12:48] <Hobbsee> hehe
[12:48] <DaSkreech> Sho_: Simplistic?
[12:48] <ryanakca> lol
[12:49] <jjesse> mtg still going on?
[12:49] <Riddell> ok, let's get el to explain the ratonal from a usability view, seele to review and follow that
[12:49] <Hobbsee> jjesse: yep
[12:49] <Riddell> and break the no sys tray thing gently to tonio
[12:49] <kwwii> Riddell: +1
[12:49] <Sho_> DaSkreech: The default theme is "Simplistic", yeah
[12:49] <fdoving> there is probably not a reason all kde apps have the tabs at top or bottom. :)
[12:49] <Sho_> On what grounds?
[12:49] <Lure> Sho_: bottom tabs is better for sure - near the text reading area and consistent with konsole
[12:49] <DaSkreech> It's impossible to read
[12:50] <Hobbsee> people tend not to grok the different parts of irc anyway, so i dont suspect that the symbols really mean much to the user
[12:50] <Hobbsee> apart from the "greyed out means away"
[12:50] <Riddell> ok, any other business?
[12:50] <kwwii> let's leave this up to those who specialize in this area
[12:50] <Hobbsee> in which case the point is moot
[12:50] <Hobbsee> Riddell: yes, toma
[12:50] <Lure> DaSkreech: I agree that default theme is not good enough, but I vote for kwwii to help konversation gust with new icons
[12:50] <Sho_> DaSkreech: The nickname list widget has a comprehensive "What's This" help tooltip that uses the active theme to describe the different states, and the theme preview widget in the preferences dialog has description tooltips.
[12:50] <Jucato> Lure; +1 :D
[12:50] <DaSkreech> Hobbsee: yeah but I can easily glance at the nicklist and ascertain that some people have powers with squares
[12:50] <DaSkreech> I can't do that with simplistic
[12:51] <DaSkreech> unless it's explained
[12:51] <Hobbsee> DaSkreech: true that.  i actually agree with you - that's what i use too
[12:51] <Hobbsee> but tonio will absolutely throw a cow over it :)
[12:51] <Riddell> toma has an item?
[12:51] <toma> In some recent discussions with the debian KDE team it appears that they are not really happy with the coorparation between both parties and I would like to organise a meeting between both to see where we can help eachother. Please -1 if objecting, +1 if you want to attend, 0 if you dont care
[12:51] <Sho_> DaSkreech: The nickname list widget has a comprehensive "What's This" help tooltip that uses the active theme to describe the different states, and the theme preview widget in the preferences dialog has description tooltips.
[12:51] <fdoving> +1
[12:51] <mhb> +1
[12:51] <DaSkreech> Sho_: you are assuming that people click on that
[12:51] <Hobbsee> Riddell: yeah.  the agenda didnt catch up with his brainwaves, though.
[12:51] <Sho_> oops, sry
[12:51] <Riddell> toma: actually I hope to plan the real life meeting at debconf
[12:51] <Lure> toma: +1
[12:51] <kwwii> +1
[12:52] <Riddell> err, attend, not plan
[12:52] <Sho_> DaSkreech: Our main concern with the theme Kubuntu chose is that it's graphically poor. If Kubuntu is going to deviate from our default, maybe another option would be to spend some art resources on fixing the theme.
[12:52] <Lure> Sho_: but good icon is always better than tooltip
[12:52] <ryanakca> +1
[12:52] <Sho_> DaSkreech: We're not married to the default, but we'd like for the app not to look like shit.
[12:52] <DaSkreech> Sho_: I vote for fixing it
[12:52] <toma> Riddell: ok, that's nice, but not many people here will be there I guess
[12:52] <Hobbsee> we need to look at sending oru changes back to debian, and oru bugs back - else we just make them furious
[12:52] <Sho_> DaSkreech: we're ok with that
[12:52] <Lure> Sho_: exactly - I hope kwwii can help here with some icon proposal
[12:52] <DaSkreech> Sho_: would you like to contribute what makes it poor?
[12:52] <Jucato> +1 for asking kwwii for some awesome looking icons :)
[12:52] <Hobbsee> DaSkreech: you're volunteering?
[12:53] <mhb> Sho_: let's keep it family friendly .o)
[12:53] <toma> can we stop the konversation discussion please?
[12:53] <kwwii> looks like I am voluntold to make icons
[12:53] <yuriy> kubuntu kde packaging is completely separate from debian?
[12:53] <DaSkreech> toma: +1
[12:53] <DaSkreech> kwwii: lol
[12:53] <Riddell> yuriy: no, it's mostly the same
[12:53] <Hobbsee> yuriy: no - but it's mainly bugs now
[12:53] <Lure> kwwii: just 4 or so (not 20 batteries ;-)
[12:53] <Hobbsee> which we should really send back
[12:53] <nixternal> toma: +1 on the Debian KDE meeting, however physically will be a hard one for me since I am back in school...1 year left then we can all party Kubuntu style :)
[12:53] <yuriy> oh i thought Riddell packages the new KDE every time
[12:54] <yuriy> or is that just for kubuntu.org?
[12:54] <Hobbsee> there's a reportbug-ng too, so you dont have to use email
[12:54] <Hobbsee> yuriy: nope.  and nope
[12:54] <Sho_> DaSkreech: The colour palette doesn't fit very well into either KDE or Kubuntu defaults, and the serif typography doesn't look particularly fresh.
[12:54] <Hobbsee> yuriy: we have to rebuild for kubuntu, and add some of our stuff, but otherwise it's the same
[12:54] <DaSkreech> Sho_: noted
[12:54] <yuriy> oh ok
[12:54] <toma> i want a meeting to see where we can help each other and with all people involved, i think thats only possible on irc
[12:54] <DaSkreech> Sho_: can i request that you put that on the text that we are referencing ?
[12:54] <Sho_> Ok, so to sum things up: Disabling the systray icon is a go; removing the C++ patch is a go; theme is going to the artwork people; tab bar ... what?
[12:54] <Riddell> toma: meeting sounds fine, should it be before or after debconf?
[12:55] <mhb> an irc meeting would be lovely for those that can't attend debconf
[12:55] <DaSkreech> Sho_: usabilty
[12:55] <toma> Riddell: what do you think?
[12:55] <mhb> from both sides
[12:55] <DaSkreech> Sho_: then a decision
[12:55] <Hobbsee> Sho_: tab bar to the usability
[12:55] <Hobbsee> people
[12:55] <Sho_> DaSkreech: Isn't it kind of redundant to double-check KDE Usability with Kubuntu Usability? ;-)
[12:55] <Riddell> Sho_: tab bar we ask el for a rationale and seele for feedback and follow them
[12:55] <Sho_> hmkay
[12:55] <Lure> toma: I think irc meeting is fine and Riddell (+whoever) does f-to-f on debconf
[12:55] <Hobbsee> meeting would be good - give me at least a couple of weeks so i can go thru those logs again and become sanely thought out
[12:55] <DaSkreech> Sho_: sure it is. Swing us what KDE usabilty said :)
[12:56] <toma> can we stop the konversation discussion please?
[12:56] <Sho_> DaSkreech: As noted above, El is a participant in our process and so far hasn't complained about the bottom default, anyway
[12:56] <toma> ok
[12:56] <Hobbsee> Riddell: please do impress on them at debconf htat you're interested in making the distros kde both as good as possible, not just trying to add crackful bling
[12:56] <toma> good nite all, i'll set it in motion
[12:56] <DaSkreech> Nite
[12:57] <fdoving> nite.
[12:57] <DaSkreech> nixxy baby!
[12:57] <mhb> anything else?
[12:57] <Hobbsee> Riddell: afaik, that's not hte case - but it is the perception
[12:57] <Riddell> Hobbsee: what's not the case?
[12:57] <Sho_> DaSkreech: I've added the points about the theme to the txt file
[12:58] <DaSkreech> Sho_: thanks
[12:58] <Hobbsee> Riddell: that you're adding crackful bling, and not interested in making kde work the best - just making it the shinyest
[12:58] <Hobbsee> id' have to look up the exact quote
[12:58] <Riddell> we only add good bling
[12:59] <Riddell> any other business?
[12:59] <Hobbsee> well, good bling too.
[12:59] <nixternal> no gold wheels with spinners please
[12:59] <Hobbsee> Riddell: i want a pony, please.
[12:59] <Riddell> should we try and hold regular kubuntu meetings?
[01:00] <jjesse> yes
[01:00] <Hobbsee> oh yes, that's right
[01:00] <Lure> Riddell: yes!
[01:00] <mhb> sure
[01:00] <Lure> Riddell: bi-weekly?
[01:00] <Hobbsee> * Volunteers for helping to clean up the kubuntu wiki
[01:00] <Hobbsee> please, if there are people who are interested, do so
[01:00] <Hobbsee> i cleaned up a hwole lot of breezy kubuntu stuff at UDS
[01:00] <Jucato> Hobbsee: I'll try to see if I could help this weekend on that
[01:00] <yuriy> kubuntu wiki being wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu?
[01:00] <Lure> Hobbsee: +1 - I like KernelTeam desing
[01:00] <Lure> design even
[01:00] <Hobbsee> yuriy: category kubuntu stuff
[01:01] <Hobbsee> havent seen that, sorry
[01:01] <Hobbsee> * Have monthly meetings, maybe on the first wednesday of each month was the plan
[01:01] <Hobbsee> Riddell: apparently our kde4 packages start - we probably want to look at working more with debian on this?
[01:01] <Hobbsee> tha's where we got blasted for a lot
[01:02] <DaSkreech> Hobbsee: a Mustang?
[01:02] <Hobbsee> DaSkreech: hm?
[01:02] <Riddell> Lure: do you think we have enough business for fortnightly?
[01:03] <Lure> Riddell: we can probably start with monthly as Hobbsee proposed
[01:03] <DaSkreech> Hobbsee: for your pony
[01:03] <Hobbsee> DaSkreech: ahh
[01:03] <DaSkreech> What's the criteria for wiki cleanup?
[01:03] <Riddell> how about first wednesday of each month?
[01:03] <Riddell> I remember that was suggested at UDS
[01:03] <Hobbsee> DaSkreech: "anything that's not needed"
[01:04] <Lure> Riddell: what time - like tonight?
[01:04] <Hobbsee> i believe that pending timetable, tha'ts okay
[01:04] <Hobbsee> Lure: yeah
[01:04] <Riddell> Lure: at a time that suits best for the month?
[01:04] <Hobbsee> Lure: it'd change when daylight savings screws up, though
[01:04] <Hobbsee> as in, it's hinged upon my time, so it'll change when au timezones do
[01:04] <Lure> or do we have two times (to better fit people like Jucato and then alter?
[01:05] <Riddell> so next meeting, 4th of july
[01:05] <Hobbsee> Lure: doesnt really work - we miss the europeans
[01:05] <Hobbsee> i've tried that
[01:05] <Jucato> :)
[01:05] <Hobbsee> Riddell: tha't sa US holiday, isnt it?
[01:05] <DaSkreech> Hobbsee: as in out of date?
[01:05] <Riddell> yes, means they have no excuse for being at work :)
[01:05] <Hobbsee> haha
[01:05] <Lure> Hobbsee: right, as it is during our work hours....
[01:05] <Hobbsee> Lure: exactly
[01:05] <Riddell> any volunteer to do minutes from this meeting?
[01:06] <nixternal> Wednesday for me is busy between after 22:00 UTC
[01:06] <Sho_> Hobbsee: (btw, you're going to ping us when the results on the usability review are in?)
[01:06] <Hobbsee> Sho_: will CC you on all the relevant mailing list mail, yes.
[01:06] <nixternal> argh this ssh is killing me
[01:06] <Riddell> Sho_: sure, and it's less a review more an opinion, no need to spend hours on it
[01:06] <Riddell> nixternal: another day suit better?
[01:06] <Lure> nixternal: we can probably do also Tue or Thu
[01:07] <Riddell> thursdays tend to have other meetings
[01:07] <Hobbsee> actually, screw that
[01:07] <Sho_> Hobbsee, Riddell: k, thanks
[01:07] <nixternal> Riddell: Monday - Thursday after 22:00 is busy for me for school...anytime before 22:00 is fine
[01:07] <Hobbsee> my timetable will change next semester - there's only one more weke of class
[01:07] <Jucato> kthxbye? lolcode! :)
[01:07] <Lure> Sho_: and thans for great app!
[01:07] <Lure> Sho_: thanks even
[01:07] <Riddell> nixternal: 22:00 local time?
[01:08] <nixternal> UTC
[01:08] <Sho_> Lure: thanks :)
[01:09] <Hobbsee> Riddell: definetly UTC.  if anyone gives me a timezone in NST or FUTZ, i shoot them.
[01:09] <Jucato> hehehe
[01:09] <Riddell> ok, well lets try wednesdays and pick a time closer to the date
[01:09] <Hobbsee> give me a min, i'm fighting estudent
[01:10] <Hobbsee> ooh, saner timetable!
[01:10] <Hobbsee> okay, tuesday and wednesday works here, but we may bea ble to push the meeting alter anyway
[01:10] <mhb> aww, 22:00 UTC is midnight here :o(
[01:11] <Hobbsee> Riddell: (up arrow here)
[01:11] <mhb> but it's fine for one or two meetings
[01:11] <Riddell> mhb: and he needs it before that time
[01:11] <Riddell> still looking for minutes volunteers :)
[01:11] <mhb> Riddell: oh, before that is fine
[01:11] <mhb> Riddell: I'll do it
[01:11] <Riddell> yay
[01:12] <Riddell> meeting over I think
[01:12] <Hobbsee> seems so
[01:12] <Hobbsee> thanks all for coming
[01:12] <Riddell> thanks all
[01:12] <Hobbsee> 1/3 meetings down
[01:12] <Hobbsee> and yay, core dev tonight!  maybe
[01:12] <Riddell> oh yes, everyone come and support Hobbsee for core dev tomorrow european morning
[01:12] <Hobbsee> 930 UTC, iirc
[01:12] <Jucato> what time? (UTC)
[01:13] <Hobbsee> 7.30pm local
[01:13] <Hobbsee> not sure for you
[01:13] <Jucato> cool 5:30 pm :)
[01:13] <Jucato> er.. wait
[01:13] <Jucato> should be 5:30. I'll compute later eheheh
[01:13] <Lure> Hobbsee: good luck with core-dev - you will rock!
[01:13] <mhb> Hobbsee: good luck
[01:13] <Hobbsee> thanks :)
[01:14] <Jucato> Hobbsee: you don't need luck. you have your Long Pointy Stick of Doom TM :)
[01:14] <Hobbsee> Jucato: heh
[01:14] <DaSkreech> Doooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom
[09:41] <spiderman_> hi there   im trying to connect MS blue tooth keyboard in ubuntu 7.0.4 and getting error Can't create HID control channel: Connection refused ... can any one tell me what to do
[09:41] <spiderman_> ?
[11:27] <DarkSun88> Hi all
[11:36] <mdz> Hobbsee: ping?
[11:36] <Hobbsee> mdz: pong, on release management conference call
[11:36] <Hobbsee> as is keybuk
[11:41] <mdz> Hobbsee: ok, though I have an 1100 meeting
[11:53] <Hobbsee> mdz: in what TZ?
[11:54] <mdz> Hobbsee: about 6 minutes from now
[11:54] <Hobbsee> bugger
[11:54] <mdz> is the call finished?
[11:54] <Hobbsee> almost
[11:54] <mdz> we scheduled from 0930-1000 UTC for this meeting
[11:54] <Hobbsee> right, OK
[11:54] <mdz> did the release call run over, or was there a scheduling error?
[11:54] <Hobbsee> soryr - meeting started 45 mins late.
[11:54] <Hobbsee> it ran over
[11:55] <Hobbsee> mdz: it's done now
[11:55] <Hobbsee> hiya Keybuk
[11:55] <fabbione> Hobbsee: trying to become core-dev?
[11:55] <Hobbsee> fabbione: yes
[11:56] <mdz> fabbione: australia-compatible tech board meeting
[11:56] <fabbione> ok.. mdz, Keybuk: you have my plus on her work to be core-dev
[11:56] <fabbione> (for what it matters)
[11:56] <fabbione> i have been eyeballing her work from time to time and it was good
[11:56] <mdz> Keybuk: did you hear anything from mjg59?
[11:56] <mdz> sabdfl is in the office
[11:56] <fabbione> mdz: yeah i could guess that
[11:56] <Hobbsee> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-May/000124.html was Riddell's input, he found out late
[11:57] <Keybuk> mdz: it's about 5 hours until he gets up
[11:57] <Hobbsee> mdz: i'm not sure what you want to do, in the interests of time now.  it's your call.
[11:57] <Riddell> that post doesn't read as enthusiastically as it should have done :)
[11:57] <sabdfl> hi all
[11:57] <Hobbsee> hi sabdfl
[11:57] <sabdfl> Hobbsee: sorry for the delay
[11:58] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: no problem - our conference call on release management only just ended.
[11:58] <Hobbsee> which Keybuk was on as well
[11:58] <sabdfl> Keybuk: mdz has another call so it's just you me and mjg59 iirc
[11:59] <sabdfl> should we get started?
[11:59] <Keybuk> Hobbsee: how did you find UDS?  did you have a productive week?  any suggestions for how we might improve the format/sessions to make them better?
[11:59] <ogra> if one MOTU deserves it, its Hobbsee
[11:59] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: i found it useful, when it wasnt freezing cold.  i had a fairly productive week, getting to know people
[11:59] <sabdfl> Hobbsee: what does -core-dev mean, in your opinion, other than the ability to upload to main/restricted?
[12:00] <Hobbsee> it's hard for the more community type people to actually get stuff done - it's very coding focussed
[12:00] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: a responsibility for QA, being able to merge seeds, etc. more so than just MOTU.
[12:00] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: the sessions seemed better this time, from what i'd heard.  the hotel and such worked really well.
[12:01] <mdz> I've delayed my meeting by 30 minutes
[12:01] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: oh, and getting to know the canonical people were really cool
[12:01] <cjwatson> Hobbsee: which sessions were you mostly involved in?
[12:01] <Hobbsee> cjwatson: kubuntu, obviously, irc, forum ambassadors, a bit of planet stuff...
[12:01] <Hobbsee> ended up sitting on a copule of "canonical" ones, like the developer weather report
[12:02] <cjwatson> (I don't think that's particularly Canonical FWIW, though it should probably end up running on a DC machine)
[12:02] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: actually, that's one thing i'd like to see - an awareness that developer weather report, etc, or some of the more archive-y things you dont actually need to be a canonical employee for - they wont kick you out
[12:02] <Hobbsee> it's not, i suspect, but the perception was there
[12:03] <cjwatson> I think, for those sessions that were closed, we were reluctant to overly draw attention to them by pointing out that everything else was open :-)
[12:03] <mdz> Hobbsee: you mentioned to me that it wasn't apparent to you that it was possible to get involved in certain activities without Canonical, and I've heard indications like that from others as well (for example, people who think that ubuntu-core-dev is only Canonical).  Do you have any thoughts about how we can help to communicate better that this is not the case?
[12:03] <cjwatson> but it's an interesting point
[12:04] <Hobbsee> mdz: i think the canonical wiki is a big problem - it's got all htis secret info
[12:04] <Hobbsee> of course, the fact that it's secret, and we see bits of secret info coming off it, makes us all wonder how much else we're missing out on
[12:04] <Hobbsee> which makes it hard to actually feel involved in some of the higher stuff.
[12:04] <Hobbsee> cjwatson: true that.  and i wasnt including the intel stuff in that.
[12:05] <Hobbsee> mdz: i'm not sure, to be honest.  it's a very big perception on MOTU == community, core-dev == canonical.  it's becoming apparent that there are other non-canonical core devs...
[12:05] <mdz> Hobbsee: we try to draw that line clearly, and keep Ubuntu activity separate from Canonical activity.  information about business relationships, employees, etc. will always be confidential.  is there something in particular which you feel is misplaced?
[12:05] <Keybuk> mdz: she spoke about the *Process wiki pages during the call
[12:06] <Hobbsee> but as soon as you deal in anything which requires ubuntu-archive powers, or anything special on LP, you're stuffed.
[12:06] <mdz> that was sabdfl's call
[12:06] <Keybuk> as a community member, it's hard for her to be involved with the milestone or release process, because those checklist/tasklists are on the canonical wiki
[12:06] <Hobbsee> mdz: it's a bit of working in the dark.  and most people wont do that.
[12:06] <Hobbsee> okay, it's a lot of working in the dark, and backtracking, to guess what that info might be.
[12:07] <Hobbsee> mdz: of course business, employees, etc, will be confidential.  it's hard to say, without actually being able to see what's there, what i'd like to see moved from there to somewhere public of course.  but any of the documentation, like release management, which isnt trouble for compeditors to have shouldnt be a problem, i w ould think
[12:07] <Hobbsee> i'm not sure if i'im making sense here
[12:08] <Hobbsee> blerg.
[12:08] <Hobbsee> "if it's not company-secret, then release it"
[12:08] <Hobbsee> is the upshot.
[12:08] <mdz> that is in fact pretty much our guideline
[12:09] <Hobbsee> and i fail to see how stuff like RM'ing is company secret - if the iso testing is public
[12:09] <mdz> we try to be as transparent as possible
[12:09] <Hobbsee> then it's a question of whether your perception matches your actions.
[12:09] <mdz> Hobbsee: I agree with you, it should be able to be public
[12:10] <Hobbsee> you'll find, if you spread some of this info around, that people will say 'oh, i'm interested in this', like you did last night - and they wont necessarily be canonical people.
[12:10] <mdz> I *think* that sabdfl's concerns had to do with information about the internal network infrastructure, but I'm not going to try to speak for him
[12:10] <Hobbsee> he should be here, he should be able to speak for himself.  *g*
[12:10] <sabdfl> there will always be some things we want to be uniquely good at, at canonical, that we consider company expertise
[12:10] <Hobbsee> but i see your point, yes.  obviously small parts will be confidential
[12:10] <sabdfl> and those things we keep internal to canonical
[12:10] <Hobbsee> yeah
[12:10] <Hobbsee> of course
[12:11] <sabdfl> and there will always be folks wanting to see or participate in that
[12:11] <mdz> Hobbsee: that particular documentation presumably only came up today during the release call, though the perception certainly predated that.  is there something else about that wiki which troubles you?
[12:11] <sabdfl> so that point of friction is an inevitability
[12:11] <sabdfl> same thing happens when a developer working on cool stuff says "i'll release htis when i'm ready"
[12:11] <Hobbsee> mdz: the specs being moved to the wiki on the 4th, when UDS started on the 6th, was an absolute nightmare, community wise.
[12:11] <sabdfl> increasingly there are also other companies working with ubuntu, and they don't disclose what they do even to canonical
[12:12] <Hobbsee> the fact that you were doing it internally, when there was no great logical reason to, when most of the people there didnt work for canonical...is...odd.
[12:12] <Hobbsee> at least, i think msot of the people there didnt work for canonical
[12:12] <cjwatson> sabdfl: I'm not sure this is the right place, but I would like to investigate the possibility of documenting the broad outline publicly in order to be able to take advantage of points where we're currently pressed for effort on staff and there are community members want to help, even if many of the specifics are private
[12:12] <mdz> Hobbsee: it was no better for Canonical; there are no secrets there.  we are always rushed to prepare for UDS after the release, and this was no exception.  I do intend to improve that process this time around
[12:12] <imbrandon> right but how do we get rid of the "feeling" that there is a core-dev and canonical-core-dev
[12:12] <sabdfl> cjwatson: sure, and i do trust your judgement
[12:13] <Hobbsee> mdz: of course, if you're prepared to open it up, there are probably people who are interested in helping you, who like doing that kind of stuff.
[12:13] <cjwatson> sabdfl: perhaps I can put something together and run it by you?
[12:13] <Hobbsee> if you trust them.
[12:13] <mdz> Hobbsee: it's not as if the UDS schedule was secret until then; it simply didn't exist yet
[12:13] <Mithrandir> cjwatson: maybe expanding the release checklist to include bits we want to be sane for the milestones too?
[12:13] <sabdfl> think of it this way - one of the things canonical brought to the distro world was hard release timing, and that's still a company competence
[12:13] <Hobbsee> mdz: it somewhat existed.  i know, as i grilled Riddell over what was there.
[12:13] <mdz> it required all of the specs to be registered in launchpad, prioritized, etc. before we could generate it
[12:13] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: of course.  i understand that.
[12:13] <sabdfl> so, we make a choice to do some of that work ourselves, to preserve the feeling that we're damn damn good at it
[12:13] <Hobbsee> mdz: wouldnt it have been more helpful if people could have subscribed to all their spects early, so you could have run your autogenerator a bit earlier?
[12:14] <sabdfl> Hobbsee: what do you consider the big challenges on the free software desktop?
[12:14] <Hobbsee> ooh heck.
[12:14] <Hobbsee> hmmm....
[12:14] <cjwatson> Hobbsee: it was public from at least the 3rd, but we just hadn't had time to go through and register the specs; I think this is a matter of organisation rather than Canonical vs. Ubuntu, though I grant you the point that it would have been helpful to do it earlier
[12:14] <mdz> Hobbsee: yes, it certainly would
[12:14] <Hobbsee> cjwatson: bear in mind, i left on the 3rd.  and your third was my 4th.  timezones suck.
[12:14] <Hobbsee> cjwatson: i understand your point, i'm not trying to grill you on it
[12:15] <mdz> but I agree with Colin, "UDS could be better organized" isn't a Canonical vs. community issue
[12:15] <mdz> I've been thinking of writing a document explaining in more detail the relationship between Canonical and Ubuntu
[12:15] <mdz> so that it's easier to understand the role that we play and how to interact
[12:15] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: actually getting it into schools, universites, etc, so people can play with it.
[12:16] <mdz> Hobbsee: if a community member had volunteered to organize UDS, I would have welcomed them with open arms :-)
[12:16] <sabdfl> from a -core-dev point of view, how can we help that process?
[12:16] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: a couple of years ago, the only thing i knew about, open-source wise, was firefox.  and then it lead from there.
[12:16] <Hobbsee> mdz: did you actually say that you would have welcomed input from them?  if the answer is no, then people would have expected that that was a canonical thing, so they couldnt do it.
[12:17] <mdz> Hobbsee: and I'd like to fix that problem at its root, rather than explicitly saying "yes, you *can* do <most everything>"
[12:17] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: i'm not sure, to be honest.  hmmm...i suspect edubuntu's going to be your key progress there, for all the new users.
[12:17] <mdz> the assumption shouldn't be that you can't
[12:17] <Hobbsee> mdz: true.  to us, you're a company, so we only expect to be able to do the things that you make public to us.
[12:18] <Hobbsee> because we wouldnt be able to help out in a normal company like this
[12:18] <Hobbsee> you guys are open, and it's great.  it's still surprising me, tbh.
[12:18] <mdz> Hobbsee: but Canonical isn't Ubuntu.  Community members hold positions all over, including this very technical board
[12:18] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: but it's an ubuntu event, not a canonical event, so people should feel empowered to help.
[12:18] <Hobbsee> mdz: indeed.  perceptions vs reality.
[12:18] <mdz> perhaps that's the root
[12:18] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: sure, but canonical is organising it.
[12:19] <Hobbsee> mdz: i'm convinced it is.  or at least one of them.
[12:19] <sabdfl> i'd be happy to have an ubuntu-conf team
[12:19] <sabdfl> that's a great idea, actually
[12:19] <Mithrandir> so the question is, how can we drag more community people into helping organise it?
[12:19] <mdz> Canonical created Ubuntu, but from the very beginning, it was established as a community project
[12:19] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: by doing as you did in yesterday's meeting
[12:19] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: s/drag/encourage/
[12:19] <mdz> with its own governance and openings for participation all over
[12:19] <Hobbsee> "who's interested in doing this?" - especially if you add that you dont ahve to be a canonical employee to do it
[12:20] <mdz> Canonical does a lot of the heavy lifting, including most of the things that aren't as much fun as contributing at one's leisure :-)
[12:20] <Hobbsee> mdz: of course, but we all understand that there's various private stuff involved, and so if it looks private, not to touch it.
[12:20] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: ok, so we should try to be more explicit about "this is going to happen in six months, if you want to help organise, tell us"?
[12:20] <sabdfl> the next summit will be a good opportunity to do better on this front
[12:20] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: exactly
[12:20] <imbrandon> i think just the fact it is a company that started it you *have* to point somethings out explisitly
[12:20] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: and we need help in ways x, y, z
[12:20] <sabdfl> and now is a good time to discuss it, since we're just gearing up to arrange it
[12:20] <Hobbsee> well, i wont be there.
[12:21] <Hobbsee> unfortunately
[12:21] <Hobbsee> unless something really big happens and the world explodes.
[12:21] <mdz> which is why we go to such lengths to make it possible to at least stay informed and participate without attending UDS
[12:21] <Hobbsee> but yes
[12:21] <cjwatson> actually, it would be worth having somebody who isn't going to be there on the team to ensure that we think about other people who aren't
[12:21] <cjwatson> although I realise that's less of an appealing prospect than helping with a conference you *will* be at
[12:22] <Hobbsee> mdz: that has improved this time, i think.
[12:22] <cjwatson> Hobbsee: at this point, what specific things have you needed to touch but been unable to due to not being in core-dev?
[12:22] <Hobbsee> mdz: there was more of a perception of "ooh, i wonder what's on today", as opposed to a "oh, paris UDS is on.  so what.  we wont speak to any of those people for the week"
[12:23] <Hobbsee> cjwatson: kde, mainly.  the seeds i havent looked into, only because i knew it was core dev
[12:23] <mdz> Hobbsee:  so you stayed in touch with how the community perceived the event, even though you were in attendance?
[12:23] <imbrandon> she touches alot of KDE main with us
[12:23] <mdz> that is challenging
[12:24] <Hobbsee> cjwatson: i'll probably need it for release management stuff, with the seeds and such.  although ti seems that a lot of permissions are only restricted to -dev now
[12:24] <Hobbsee> mdz: sure.
[12:24] <Hobbsee> mdz: i tend to be pretty good at reading people, and i was on irc for a lot of the conference.  particularly when i wasnt in multiple sessions at once.
[12:24] <mdz> Hobbsee: I didn't even manage to read my email ;-)
[12:25] <Hobbsee> mdz: yes, but you're mdz.
[12:25] <Hobbsee> and one of the conference organisers
[12:25] <Mithrandir> mdz: you were everywhere else, though
[12:25] <Hobbsee> i mean, once the main kubuntu kde4 plan got decided, there wasnt so much kubuntu stuff for me to do
[12:25] <mdz> Hobbsee: but there are always more things going on
[12:25] <Hobbsee> of course
[12:26] <Hobbsee> i'm not saying i didnt get involved with them - i was more meaning that i didnt have 10 billion sessions in a day to go to
[12:26] <Hobbsee> which i did on teh first day.
[12:26] <Hobbsee> 3 hours, 4 sessions, iirc, plus the original "welcome" etc ones
[12:26] <mdz> we tried to have some sessions each day for groups which were represented the entire week
[12:26] <Hobbsee> it worked well, it really did
[12:27] <mdz> Keybuk,cjwatson and I got blisters from shuffling bits of paper
[12:27] <Hobbsee> often we had mornings off, and the community ones were in the latter half of the day
[12:27] <Hobbsee> heh
[12:27] <Hobbsee> again, i suspect more people would be happy to help, if they knew you'd accept it
[12:27] <cjwatson> ( later in the week, it has been proven that people who don't get paid to get up in the morning have a lower rate of doing so ;-) )
[12:27] <mdz> next time around, I'd like to do a proper call for topics, have a mailing list for people attending the conference, and generally be more organized about it
[12:28] <Hobbsee> cjwatson: haha.  true that.
[12:28] <cjwatson> (by Friday, I wouldn't have been up for 9 sharp had I not had to be ..)
[12:28] <Hobbsee> :P
[12:28] <mdz> Hobbsee: so you think I should send out a call saying we're looking for volunteers to help organize UDS?
[12:28] <Hobbsee> mdz: yes.
[12:29] <Hobbsee> stick it on the mailing list that you're going to create about UDS organisation.
[12:29] <Hobbsee> they did that for ubucon.
[12:29] <mdz> ubuntu-devel-summit
[12:29] <Keybuk> cjwatson: I would rephrase that as "people who aren't at risk of not being paid" ;)
[12:29] <mdz> ok, I'm out of time here
[12:30] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: haha
[12:30] <mdz> sabdfl seems to have fallen off the network and only just now reconnected
[12:30] <mdz> Keybuk: any further questions for Hobbsee?
[12:30] <sabdf1> hi, sorry, network issues
[12:30] <sabdf1> from my side, +1 for Hobbsee on -core-dev, with thanks for a wonderful contribution to date and congrats on the speed at which she has made a big impact on an already-big project
[12:30] <Keybuk> wifi signal is clearly weak in the "West Core" of Millbank
[12:30] <Hobbsee> sabdf1: you havent suddenly moved to australia, have you?
[12:30] <sabdf1> Hobbsee: spiritually, perhaps
[12:30] <imbrandon> :)
[12:30] <Hobbsee> at least my wifi's not disconnecting every 30 mins again
[12:31] <Keybuk> my panel just crashed
[12:31] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: shh, don't remind it.
[12:31] <Keybuk> nm-applet seems to have caused it
[12:31] <Keybuk> freaky
[12:31] <Hobbsee> heh
[12:31] <Keybuk> anyway, unreserved +1 from me#
[12:31] <mdz> +1 from me, you've made sustained contributions of excellent quality and are clearly taking an interest in moving the project forward through activities beyond packaging
[12:31] <Hobbsee> mdz: sabdf1: there are people who will offer you this kind of feedback, i suspect.  i'm one.  but only if you want it, and go asking for it.
[12:32] <mdz> Hobbsee: congratulations and welcome
[12:32] <Hobbsee> seeing as talking to busy people == bad, as it's disrupting them.
[12:32] <Hobbsee> thankyou :D
[12:32] <mdz> Keybuk: will you do the honors in LP and email?
[12:32] <imbrandon> congrats Hobbsee :)
[12:32] <mdz> I'm late
[12:32] <Keybuk> yup
[12:32] <sabdf1> Hobbsee: we specialise in being disrupted round here ;-)
[12:32] <mdz> thanks
[12:32] <sabdf1> disruptive, too, i hope!
[12:32] <Hobbsee> sabdf1: true that.  but you're big and scary, as is mdz.
[12:32] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: woo, congrats!
[12:33] <imbrandon> heh
[12:33] <Hobbsee> sabdf1: i took a big chance in actually saying "i'm interested in RM" for eg, knowing that i wasnt employed by you.
[12:33] <dholbach> congratulations Hobbsee!
[12:33] <seb128> Hobbsee: congrats ;)
[12:33] <Hobbsee> hehe, here are all the lurkers :)
[12:33] <sabdf1> Hobbsee: have confidence. you're smart and sane, and make a great contribution, you have a vote and you have credibility
[12:33] <Hobbsee> sabdf1: :)
[12:33] <Hobbsee> sabdf1: of course, where to put that feedback to is an interesting question
[12:33] <sabdf1> thanks for being part of the project, and it's your project too
[12:33] <Hobbsee> and which particular feedback you want, too
[12:33] <Hobbsee> :)
[12:34] <shawarma> Hobbsee: Congrats!
[12:34] <Hobbsee> which reminds me, i need to whine at the CC :P
[12:34] <sabdf1> Hobbsee: i want feedback on the things you care most about, though i hope you understand that i can't always act in the way you might want
[12:34] <sabdf1> well done
[12:35] <asac> Hobbsee: congratulations
[12:35] <ogra> finally
[12:35] <ogra> :)
[12:35] <Hobbsee> hehe
[12:35] <Hobbsee> i was just going to never go for it again, you know...
[12:35] <Hobbsee> once bitten, twice shy...
[12:35] <ogra> heh
[12:36] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: maybe you didn't, but others wanted you to. :-P
[12:36] <Hobbsee> hehe
[12:36] <Hobbsee> yes....
[12:36] <Hobbsee> they'll keep...
[12:37] <ogra> Mithrandir, well done :)