/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/06/07/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 19:00 UTC: Technical Board
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DarkSun88Hi all02:23
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Hobbsee@schedule sydney04:25
ubotuSchedule for Australia/Sydney: 08 Jun 06:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jun 01:00: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 15 Jun 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Jun 03:00: Xubuntu Developers | 20 Jun 05:00: Technical Board04:25
evand@schedule new_york04:27
ubotuSchedule for America/New_York: 07 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 Jun 11:00: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 08:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 12:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 13:00: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 15:00: Technical Board04:27
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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 19:00 UTC: Technical Board
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=== agoliveira waves all
dholbachhiya agoliveira09:53
Riddellevening09:54
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pittihi09:54
mathiazhello09:54
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=== ogra waves
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bryycehi all09:55
keescookhiya09:55
evandhello09:56
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=== bdmurray thinks of something different
bdmurrayolleh09:57
cjwatsongood evening all09:57
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dholbachbdmurray: (-: o09:58
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bdmurraydoh, that didn't render well09:58
pittidholbach: erk09:58
pittihere it did09:58
pittibut it hurts my eyes :)09:58
kylemmoo.09:58
bdmurrayI blame keescook09:58
pittibdmurray: no, its not a 'X rendering fonts upside down' bug :)09:58
keescookbdmurray: get yer own colo! ;)09:58
shawarmaGood evening, all.09:59
fabbioneevening09:59
asachi all10:00
dholbachcjwatson: doko told me he might be 5 minutes late10:00
cjwatsonok10:00
cjwatsonthanks10:00
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cjwatsonasac,rtg__: ping?10:01
rtg__dong10:01
dholbachwow.... hey mvo10:01
asaccjwatson: 5 lines above :)10:01
mvogood evening10:01
mvohey dholbach10:01
=== Mithrandir pongs
asacevening mr. mvo10:01
cjwatsonasac: err, sorry, didn't mean you :)10:02
cjwatsonbryyce: ping10:02
bryyceheya10:02
cjwatsoncool10:02
cjwatsonnow where's mdz10:02
cjwatsonmdz: pingaling10:02
Keybukstuck at the mercy of British Rail I'm afraid10:02
Keybukhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting2007060710:02
Keybuklet's get started while mdz is delayed10:03
Keybukeverybody here?10:03
=== ogra waves
RiddellI am10:03
KeybukI see everyone from my team, Colin and Heno, everyone from yours?10:03
agoliveiraThe ones absent, please raise your hands!10:03
henoKeybuk: yep10:03
cjwatsonKeybuk: yes10:03
Keybukeveryone from mdz's looks to be here too?10:03
shawarmaThink so.10:03
mathiazyop10:04
Keybukso, we have some new people with us today10:04
bryyceyay!10:04
Keybukkeescook has returned from the IS team, and will be working on security, and filling in his spare time with some server work10:04
keescook\o/10:04
mvowelcome back!10:04
asackeescook: welcome back!10:04
shawarmaYay, keescook!10:04
=== dholbach hugs keescook
keescookthanks; I missed you guys.  :)10:04
=== pitti hugs keescook, welcome back to distro!
=== agoliveira is sad for not being the "youngish" anymore :(
=== agoliveira just kidding
Keybukand heno has bravely stepped up to lead our QA efforts, and will be reporting to mdz and leading the new QA team; the first member of which is bdmurray10:05
=== fabbione grins at new fresh blood in the team...
cjwatsonQA> there will be more10:05
henoindeed10:05
bdmurraythat'll be nice10:05
kylemmore quality? :P10:05
=== keescook hugs heno, "congratz!"
=== dholbach hugs heno and bdmurray :-)
cjwatsonkylem: maaaaaaaaybe10:05
pittiQuality! Quality! Quality!10:05
henoI'm assigning bugs to all of you as we speak :)10:05
=== keescook hugs bdmurray too
keescook:)10:06
MithrandirKeybuk: spare time?  What's that? :-P10:06
dholbachheno: python-launchpad-bugs FTW :)10:06
=== heno looks ...
Keybukif everyone's read the agenda and reports, any further agenda items before we get started?10:06
cjwatsonI encourage those of you with ideas or problems related to quality, bugs, etc. to make sure heno is aware of them so that he can include them in plans10:06
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henoyep, tips and suggestions welcome!10:07
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Keybukaha, an mdz!10:08
Keybukno longer at the mercy of SouthEastern trains, eh?10:08
BenCheno: please ping me when you have ample time :)10:08
agoliveiramdz_: hi boss10:08
cjwatsonso no more agenda items; let's go on with those we have10:08
mdz_Keybuk: south west10:08
cjwatsonWhere is the right place to carry kernel /proc/sys settings? (kees)10:08
cjwatsonhistorically this has been in procps, but I agree that the conffile merge is a bit nasty10:08
Keybukkeescook: so there's obviously /etc/sysctl.conf, but that's not really great10:08
kylemcjwatson, why not have an /etc/sysctl.d? :)10:08
cjwatsonhaha donk10:09
Keybukthere's the double-not-great there of also it only gets done once10:09
cjwatsonnightmare ;-)10:09
keescookright, I already did the procps change, but I thought I'd double check10:09
Keybukso if the sysctl is for a module, it won't take effect10:09
henoBenC: will do, thanks10:09
cjwatsonKeybuk: interesting point10:09
kylemKeybuk, modules can't register sysctls iirc10:09
keescookaaah, yeah10:09
kylemit's a static kernel table.10:09
keescookso, this is (currently) for core kernel features.10:09
kylemi'm 99% sure...10:09
cjwatsonBenC: are you willing to have your team take such patches?10:09
keescookI expect more, though10:09
BenCsysctl.d sounds like a good idea10:09
Keybukkylem: /proc/sys/net/ipv6 ? :p10:10
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cjwatsondoko: welcome10:10
mdz_keescook: what's the use case you're trying to address?10:10
BenCcjwatson: which kind of patches?10:10
BenCfor procps?10:10
Keybukmy thoughts in the past was indded an /etc/sysctl.d that would get re-run on each module load10:10
kylemKeybuk, good point.10:10
dokosorry, a bit late10:10
keescookmdz_: the use-case is me getting controversial security features into mainline kernel.10:10
kylemKeybuk, apparently maybe things have changed in the intervening 7 years since i cared about a sysctl :P10:10
mdz_keescook: which require boot-time initialization of sysctls?10:10
keescookI've been allowed to do it as long as I provide a /proc toggle10:10
Keybukkeescook: does the sysctl turn them on or off?10:10
mdz_ah10:10
cjwatsonsysctl.d does sound a bit excessive to me though; .d usually means because multiple packages need to ship configuration10:11
keescookKeybuk: right.  for example /proc/sys/kernel/maps_protection (now in gutsy)10:11
pittikeescook: ah, such as enabling /tmp race protection and such?10:11
BenCI have to step out for 15, but maybe udev could handle the modular sysctl stuff?10:11
cjwatsonBenC: right, things that we're setting in the default distro anyway in /etc/sysctl.conf at the moment10:11
keescookpitti: right, symlink races, and I can imagine there may be others10:11
cjwatsonsince we ship them that way by default, it's arguable that our kernel should just default that way10:11
KeybukBenC: udev can set sysctls quite easily, since it knows when modules are added10:11
BenCcjwatson: we can do that, yes10:11
kylemare you proposing applying these from initramfs?10:12
iwjMy autopkgtest-xenlvm needs to mess with sysctl.10:12
BenCKeybuk: right, my thoughts exactly10:12
pittikeescook: hmm, but sysctl.conf is a conffile, so why is that so painful?10:12
iwjThat is, maybe people will hate it for doing so but it does anyway :-).10:12
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cjwatsonat present, we appear to set kernel.printk, kernel.maps_protect, and some dev.mac_hid stuff on powerpc10:12
cjwatson(the latter of which is mostly superseded by mouseemu now)10:12
keescookpitti: well, I just worry about people having to do a sysctl.conf merge on each upgrade10:12
Keybukcjwatson: and all of net.ipv4.conf.*10:12
iwjI think a .d is the right answer.10:12
keescookand I'd hate to see people ignore the update and leave themselves open10:12
cjwatsonkeescook: even worse, it's a conffile with arch-specific contents10:13
kylemkees, why would this change more than once a stable release10:13
mdz_cjwatson: eewww10:13
kylemsurely procps isn't going to have /that/ many bugs. :P10:13
cjwatsonfortunately work in feisty means that can probably go away in the future, but still10:13
keescookkylem: it shouldn't, which is why I put it in currently.  I just thought I'd ask here where everyone can give me some ideas.  :)10:13
pittikeescook: hm, but in general that's true for every changed conffile; do you really think that so many people will care?10:13
=== kylem thinks sysctl.d is sensible.
cjwatsonanother problem with sysctl.conf or sysctl.d is that if sysctls go away and you don't merge conffile changes you get cryptic warnings on boot which look scary but aren't10:13
pittianyway, I agree that setting those we care about by default in the kernel is a bit cleaner10:14
cjwatsonwhat does sysctl.d buy us over sysctl.conf?10:14
iwjcjwatson: It lets my package not have to invent an init.d script which doesn't work properly because it runs too early.10:14
mdz_if we're changing the default, it should be changed in the kernel10:14
Keybukcjwatson: takes away merge headaches10:14
keescookI'd probably like to see two things:  1) sysctl.d (to avoid merge pain)  2) sysctl not die when it tries to set a non-existing file10:14
mdz_and so no sysctl.conf modification should be required to stick with the default10:14
iwjAnd keescook's (2) too.10:14
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cjwatsonit sounds like there are a couple of different cases, one set of which (e.g. iwj's) are addressed by sysctl.d and others of which (the stuff procps is shipping by default) should be addressed by kernel patches10:15
keescookmdz_: that's was my thinking originally.  it's a 1 line patch to the kernel, and if people don't like it for some reason, they should _disable_ it with procps.10:15
pittikeescook: then it should at least cry out very loudly, otherwise you could miss important things10:15
cjwatsonso I see no reason why we can't do both10:15
pittikeescook: I agree to 'disable manually'10:15
keescookpitti: right, it already cries loudly, but just bombs out10:15
iwjcjwatson: both> Mmm, perhaps.10:16
mdz_keescook: that's a bug10:16
cjwatsonI never knew it bombed out; I thought it was just a warning10:16
cjwatsonI agree that's a bug10:16
pittikeescook: at least initially we probably have to carry the entire patch and not just the 'flip it on' bit, right?10:16
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keescookmdz_, cjwatson: perhaps I am wrong; I will double check and open a bug if needed10:16
iwjWe could give it a new flag --don't-mind-unknown-ctls.10:17
cjwatsonit doesn't currently document that it minds10:17
cjwatsonoh10:17
cjwatson       -e     Use this option to ignore errors about unknown keys.10:17
mdz_we could add a --don't-be-stupid10:17
iwjI mean, to even suppress the warning.10:17
keescookpitti: I have been trying to get stuff into mainline.  the maps protection is in 2.6.22, so we only need to carry the "on by default" patch (1 line)10:17
iwjcjwatson: Oh :-).10:17
Keybuksysctl --i-agree-that-this-is-not-a-benchma-oh-wait10:17
fabbioneROFL10:17
shawarma:)10:17
mdz_cjwatson: that should be the default when reading from a file10:18
MithrandirKeybuk: "acknowledge".  Have to weed out the lousy spelers.10:18
cjwatsonkeescook: from the source, I think you are mistaken that it bombs out10:18
cjwatsonit does exit non-zero, but it keeps going round the loop anyway10:18
keescookIf I can get enough time, I hope to have ASLR taken upstream, but applied in our kernel (/me begs BenC)10:18
pittikeescook: ah, that one, yes; I thought we would finally include the /tmp race protection and so10:18
keescookcjwatson: okay, sorry for that bit.  ignore my (2) above.  :)10:18
iwj/tmp race protection> What, the thing where creating without O_EXCL in sticky dirs fails ?10:18
keescookpitti: yup, I imagine many things10:19
iwjOr something else ?10:19
mdz_keescook: I think that modifying /etc/sysctl.conf is rare enough, and the consequences of the merge are trivial enough, that we don't need to worry about it10:19
keescookiwj: can't follow symlinks not owned by you in a +t dir10:19
pittiiwj: following a symlink in world-writable directories fails if it isn't owned by you10:19
iwjsymlink> Ah, helps a lot.10:19
keescookmdz_: meaning these things should stay in procps?10:19
pittisimple 10-line patch and very effective10:19
mdz_keescook: I don't see a problem10:19
keescookmdz_: okay.10:20
mdz_keescook: it's not as if something breaks if they miss the merge10:20
iwjln -s /somewhere /tmp/.X11-unix ...10:20
iwjStill, we can say "use mount --bind".10:20
keescookmdz_: it doesn't break, but it leaves them "open" to this minor issue10:20
mdz_keescook: ...which they're already open to and have been for 30 years :-)10:20
pittiiwj: lots of daemons and scripts still use things like /tmp/$$ or even static names, right10:20
keescookwell, it hasn't mattered in 29 of those 30 years because everything was statically located in memory.  :)10:21
Keybukiwj: don't bind-mount anything /ish to /tmp :p10:21
keescookso, since stack/heap ASLR, this is an issue.  once text ASLR is done, the maps file becomes very valuable10:21
Keybukthe guy who filed *that* bug is still stalking me10:21
mdz_keescook: but one is still no worse off than one has been in the paste10:22
mdz_past10:22
mdz_the worst that happens is that one misses out on a new bit of sticky gooey protective measure10:22
keescookanyway, sounds like the norm is to put kernel defaults into procps, which is the answer I was looking for.  :)  right, they're no worse off.10:22
mdz_next?10:22
KeybukWhere do Ubuntu's non-stock ulimits come from? (kees)10:23
KeybukPAM10:23
Keybukshe's an air-hostess who does UNIX security work in her spare time10:23
keescookso, pam has compiled defaults?10:23
Keybukyeah10:23
mdz_Keybuk: and keeps things from sticking to the skillet10:23
cjwatsonit does, but they don't match those keescook cites10:23
KeybukI think everything is unlimited10:23
Keybukbar a few things10:23
cjwatsonnproc is unlimited in pam_limits, for instance10:23
pittiright, a longstanding bug10:23
cjwatsonwhereas keescook says it's 204810:23
KeybukI think kees is advocating a limit, not advocating its removal?10:24
cjwatsonoh, hang on, you mean it should be 204810:24
keescookwell, my list is from what the kernel hands init10:24
mdz_there's a very, very old bug about this10:24
pitti$ ulimit -u10:24
pittiunlimited10:24
pittiright, 'provide sane default ulimits' or so10:24
cjwatsonmdz_: bug#?10:24
mdz_looking10:24
keescookand I've seen a few places where don't want unlimited signals, locked memory, or user process.  I need to study the POSIX msg queue more10:24
cjwatson14505?10:24
mdz_it's something like "ZOMG UBUNTU VULNERABLE TO SHELL SCRIPT FORK BOMB"10:24
=== Keybuk checks what limits init gets
Mithrandirkeescook: locked memory locked to 32kb sounds a bit on the slim side, though10:25
mdz_cjwatson: that's the one10:25
keescookMithrandir: according to kernel comments, this is how much gnupg wants.  *shrug*10:25
Mithrandirkeescook: hm, ok.10:25
=== agoliveira wonders what the heck is an "air-hostess". Flight attendent?
fabbionewe should be careful not to slam them too much down10:25
keescookbut unlimited is clearly wrong it introduces yet another local DoS10:25
cjwatsonkeescook: feel free to poke pam (note that it uses a debian/patches-applied/ patch scheme)10:25
cjwatsonagoliveira: yes10:26
mdz_Mithrandir: it's enough for a password, which is as much as any typical application wants10:26
keescookfabbione: are you aware of other things that lock mem?  I've been told that the binary video drivers need it, but I don't understand why/where10:26
mdz_would make a good soft limit at least10:26
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Keybukcore 0, prio 0, sigpending 3072, memlock 32, nofile 1024, msgqueue 819200, rtprio 0, nproc 307210:27
Keybuk(everything else unlimited)10:27
fabbionekeescook: no, and since we don't have good samples, that's why i suggest to trigger them down slowly to see where we break10:27
iwj__Excuse me, I didn't see anything after    21:21 <Keybuk> the guy who filed *that* bug is still stalking me10:27
Mithrandirkeescook: binary video drivers run as root anyway, I'd think?  Or do they mean GL memory is locked?10:27
mdz_keescook: seems like a good thing to switch early in the release cycle and see what breaks10:27
cjwatsoniwj__: I'll /msg you the rest10:27
iwj__I seem to be having some local dsl difficulty.10:27
kylemkeescook, if you use binary video drivers, security isn't one of your concerns...10:27
mdz_keescook: that's the best way to chase out the unexpected cases10:27
keescookMithrandir: yeah, I'm not sure, I go poke at it with nvidia10:27
mdz_keescook: though a grep for mlock over the archive sources wouldn't hurt either10:27
keescookkylem: very good point.  :)10:27
pittikylem: no, but if we have too restrictive defualt limits, their double-buffering etc. might break10:27
kylempitti, seriously though, nvidia.ko has a "get root" ioctl...10:28
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=== BenC is back
pittikylem: yeah, and samsung printer drivers make your openoffice suid root10:28
keescookmdz_: so we maintain a set of unpack sources in the DC, or do I need to do a big step/unpack loop?10:28
pittikylem: (no joke)10:28
Mithrandirpitti: that's the best thing ever.10:28
kylempitti, ...10:28
mdz_keescook: we don't, afaik10:29
=== keescook goes to buy some more drives
=== mdz_ mumbles about how it isn't even possible to get at unpacked sources in a standard way these days
fabbionekeescook: i have the space to do that here locally10:29
cjwatsonkylem: bug 11072410:29
ubotuLaunchpad bug 110724 in openoffice.org "OpenOffice runs as root for all users" [Undecided,Rejected]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/11072410:29
mdz_keescook: do yourself a favour and do it on a DC machine10:29
keescookand that bug has _duplicates_10:29
keescookfabbione: do I have access to "here"?10:30
fabbionekeescook: i can provide that...10:30
keescookokay, cool10:30
pittikeescook: I still have some scripts to grep the sources of the entire archive10:30
fabbionekeescook: or use the DC.. up to you.. just let me know10:30
keescookanyway, what do people think of the 2048 user process limit?10:30
mdz_pitti: that should go in a package somewhere10:30
fabbionekeescook: that will break my builds10:30
iwj__~~10:30
mdz_keescook: I think it's perfectly reasonable10:30
iwjExcuse me.10:30
keescookyeah, i'll raise it for myself, but for an ubuntu default, it seemed better than unlimited.  :)10:31
mdz_fabbione: make -j should fail gracefully; if it doesn't, it should be fixed10:31
pittimdz_: well, it only ever makes sense on the DC, and the scripts currently need hand-editing, but I'll look at generalizing them and maybe put them into devscripts or so10:31
mdz_not even fail gracefully. cope, rather10:31
Keybukkeescook: the default is 3072, why lower it?10:31
fabbionemdz_: ehhehe :)10:31
keescookKeybuk: your init values differ from mine a bit.  we'll compare notes later?10:31
pittikeescook: fabbione's 'make -j 300' is not what I really call 'reasonable default for normal users' anyway :)10:31
Keybukkeescook: I'm just reading from gdb before upstart's main loop <g>10:32
pittiKeybuk: default is unlimited for nproc10:32
keescookneither is my use of LVM.  :)10:32
fabbionepitti: nah.. that's history.. i am at an average of -l 409610:32
fabbione-j even10:32
keescookKeybuk: ah, I booted with init=/bin/bash and did "ulimit -a"  :P10:32
cjwatsonfabbione: I think you can raise your ulimits10:32
Keybukkeescook: what's the reason for wanting to apply limits anyway?10:32
Keybukfor a single-person machine, surely unlimited *is* the right default?10:32
fabbionecjwatson: yeah i guess i will have to10:32
keescookmostly local DoSs10:33
Keybukwhy do we want to place limits on what an Ubuntu user can do10:33
keescookKeybuk: ^^10:33
pittiKeybuk: making processes which are gone wild not block the entire system10:33
Keybukthey'll have the same ffect10:33
keescookthe aim is slightly more towards safer server installs10:33
Keybukprocess goes wild => machine can't spawn new process to fix it10:33
Keybukprocess goes wild and hits limit => still can't spawn new process10:33
mdz_Keybuk: bulletproof shoes10:33
keescookand these were a few things that stood out when comparing ubuntu defaults to other distros10:33
pittiKeybuk: they can, on a new console10:33
Keybukmdz: I prefer paper bullets10:33
pittiKeybuk: AFAIK, nproc is per console, isn't it?10:33
Keybukpitti: and how do we explain "new console" to non-server users?10:34
mdz_pitti: I don't think so10:34
Keybukpitti: no10:34
Keybuknproc is global10:34
cjwatsonsetrlimit(2) says it's per-uid10:34
keescookanyway, sounds like "yes, hunt and fix, culprit is PAM".10:34
Keybuk(remember, no root password, guys!)10:34
pittiah, 'k; sorry for misremembering then10:34
Keybukno logging in as root and killing the run-away process10:34
cjwatsonKeybuk: I think they're screwed either way10:34
Keybukcjwatson: exactly, so why limit users from doing legitimate things with no gain here?10:34
cjwatsonI'm not sure that we gain a whole lot by taking away the lubricant10:34
cjwatsoner, I mean I'm not sure that we lose a whole lot10:35
cjwatsonKeybuk: legitimate users who need that can raise the limit, no?10:35
keescookI think it marginally helps multiuser systems.10:35
Keybukdoes nproc cover processes or processes *and* threads?10:35
pittiKeybuk: anyway, right now the bash fork bomb instantly freezes the entire system; it can only get better10:35
keescookKeybuk: unsure about threads10:35
cjwatsonI think there are much fewer of them, and that they're much more knowledgeable, than those who get screwed by accidental or malicious forkbombs10:36
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Keybukcjwatson: will we provide a gui to increase the limit?10:36
pittigvim limits.conf (SCNR)10:36
Keybuk(I'm firmly a "0, 1 or unlimited" kinda man, sorry)10:36
cjwatsondo you think that users who need several thousand concurrent processes require a gui?10:36
bryyceheh10:36
Keybukcjwatson: I think that nprocs includes threads10:36
pittiwell, '1' is not that bad either; worked fine in DoS :)10:36
cjwatsoneven so10:36
pittierm, DOS10:36
cjwatson(yes, threads too)10:37
mdz_we do have the option of setting different defaults for server and desktop10:37
mdz_and more restrictive limits do make sense for servers10:37
fabbionethat would be more sensible10:37
Keybukyeah, I agree that this is right for server10:37
Keybukjust not desktop10:37
Keybukdesktops are by definition hundreds of processes with lots of threads each10:37
keescookKeybuk: you're speaking specifically about nproc?10:37
pittibut if we use sysctl.conf, we have to agree to a common limit10:37
cjwatson$ ps x | wc -l10:37
cjwatson11010:37
cjwatsonthis is a factor of at least 20 or so we're talking about?10:38
keescookpitti: I think they'd go in /etc/security/limits.conf in the end10:38
cjwatsonI'm not convinced, I'm afraid10:38
Keybukcjwatson: i just don't see the gain in changing it10:38
mdz_anything less than the maximum pid is an improvement10:38
Keybukyou're still screwed by a fork bomb10:38
Keybukso what's the difference?10:38
mdz_Keybuk: not on a server10:38
mdz_where there are non-admin users10:38
pittifor me the gain is that right now you are definitively screwed on a fork bomb; with a limit you at least have a chance to recover10:38
keescookpitti: +110:39
cjwatsonat least accidental forkbombs may well stop and give you your system back once they hit the limit10:39
Keybukcjwatson: you forgot the "m"10:39
Keybukps won't show threads by default these days10:39
mdz_Keybuk: I don't think nproc applies to threads anyway10:39
cjwatsona forkbomb that chews through your pid space will likely cause the OOM killer to kick in and then bits of your desktop start to disappear10:39
cjwatsonKeybuk: given that most of my processes are non-threaded terminals, that's specious10:39
Keybukcjwatson: more likely the fork bomb will keep pushing against the limit, and you have to reboot10:40
Luremdz_: it does (according to setrlimit(2) manpage)10:40
mdz_Lure: is that pre- or post-NPTL?10:40
Keybuknproc is counted for each clone(), no?10:40
mdz_date on the man page is 200510:40
cjwatsonI have 110 processes and 124 threads10:41
mdz_keescook: this is becoming a discussion which needs to be had on the mailing list10:41
mdz_we need to move on10:41
keescookmdz_: sure thing.  sounds like only nproc is contentious10:41
mdz_pitti: release update?10:41
pittimdz_: it's out :)10:42
mdz_pitti: wow! way ahead of schedule10:42
cjwatsonpitti: congratulations on Ubuntu 7.10, then10:42
pittiwent pretty smooth, although I had to learn and struggle a lot with learning the engineering bits10:42
mdz_we were planning on october10:42
agoliveira:-D10:42
mdz_pitti: you should have a chat with heno about release-relevant bug tracking10:42
pittimdz_: right, that's on the list already10:43
pittiso far we have about 5 or 6 for tribe-210:43
pittiand a few for later versions10:43
=== iwj double-checks the network connection.
Keybukfabbione: how is the hardware certification proceeding?10:45
fabbioneKeybuk: started as scheduled.. no bugs so far but it's a bit early to say10:45
fabbionewe are going to skip sparc for this round10:46
fabbionei found a last minute blocker10:46
fabbioneand agreed with pitti to not release it10:46
fabbionebut we have fixes on the way already10:46
fabbionethat's about it from radio hardware-cert10:47
fabbione:)10:47
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mdz_I think it would be good to publicize the test results from tribe-1 sometime before tribe-210:47
mdz_on -devel or -devel-announce10:47
mdz__I just got randomly dropped from the wireless network10:47
mdz__I think it would be good to publicize the test results from tribe-1 sometime before tribe-2 on -devel or -devel-announce10:47
cjwatsonmerges: we have 30 outstanding, which need to be completed by 21st June10:48
cjwatsonthat's excellent progress for this point in the cycle, but we just need to get through the last few10:48
fabbionemdz_: did someboby pasted to you?10:48
mdz_fabbione: no10:48
henowe need to add a feature to the USO tracker to make such reporting efficient10:49
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henoShould be fairly easy to do10:49
heno*ISO tracker10:49
bryycecjwatson: should the Updated Merges also be completed by the 21st?10:50
pittibryyce: there will constantly be new ones10:50
mdz_bryyce: those are packages which have been updated since they were merged10:50
pittithose should be picked with some common sense applied, I think10:50
bryyceok10:50
mdz_we can't be exactly up to date at the deadline, but we should be close enough10:51
cjwatsonbryyce: no10:51
mdz_everything must be merged at least once10:51
Keybukish10:51
Keybukthose are packages which have been *uploaded* since the start of the release cycle10:52
Keybukthey may have never been merged10:52
Keybukcheck versions10:52
=== dholbach will try to keep an eye on universe/multiverse merges and make everybody aware of the deadline, although it generally looks quite good already
cjwatsonright, I know grub is in that camp10:52
Keybuk(it parses the changes file and looks at the intended distribution <g>)10:53
Keybukif the last change was for the current release, it goes in updated rather than new10:53
cjwatsonto clarify, we can still upload merges after the Debian import freeze, up to upstream version freeze; we just won't automatically sync every day or so10:53
cjwatson(if that confused you, ask me out of band and I'll be happy to clarify)10:53
mdz_speaking of grub, /me mumbles about bug 2141210:53
ubotuLaunchpad bug 21412 in grub "Default update-grub behaviour is not intuitive with respect to user modifications" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/2141210:53
mdz_that bug needs to die.  who will speak for the trees?10:54
=== fabbione checks
Keybuk(and I tend to turn a switch at DIF to change the word from "Outstanding" to "New" :p)10:54
mdz_it's bitten countless users and sysadmins, and now it's bitten Dell as well10:55
mdz_heno: let us make gutsy the release where it finally dies10:55
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Keybukis that the "you need to edit the comments?" bug10:55
cjwatsonplease check with me about installer implications; it's fiddly :-/10:55
=== iwj waits for the bug to load.
mdz_Keybuk: yes10:55
=== heno makes a note
mdz_cjwatson: might be a good idea to note that in the bug itself10:56
cjwatsonit is a bug that requires careful design to make sure the result isn't just as bad10:56
mdz_in case the bug fairy comes by to fix it and wasn't in this meeting10:56
mdz_speaking of meetings, is there any other business for this one?10:56
cjwatsondone10:56
ogra:)10:57
mdz_going once10:57
mdz_twice10:57
mdz_thrice...gone.  good night and good day and back to the battlefield with ye10:57
bryycefor those curious, here's some photos of current bulletproof-x status:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~bryce/BulletProofX/10:57
bryycenight!10:57
keescookthanks everyone!10:57
mdz_thanks, everyone10:57
asacthanks!10:57
Mithrandirthat leaves me with a whooping three minutes until next meeting. :-P10:57
bdmurraybye!10:57
evandthanks10:57
dholbachthanks10:57
iwjGoodnight all.  Hmm, I should sleep on that bug.10:57
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=== agoliveira is jumping to the next meeting!
fabbionenight all10:57
ograthanks :)10:57
mathiazthanks. bye.10:57
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mvogoodnight10:58
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pittithanks all10:58
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nixternal@schedule chicago10:59
ubotuSchedule for America/Chicago: Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 Jun 10:00: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 07:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 12:00: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 14:00: Technical Board10:59
cjwatsonbryyce: nice start!10:59
bryycethanks :-)10:59
pittibryyce: cool11:00
=== evand wonders where he can find the iwantapony driver
pittithat, and friendly-recovery as yet another fallback will make it much better11:00
cjwatsonbryyce: I have various minor quibbles but it sounds like you want to get further before taking those, and I probably shouldn't distract you with irrelevant bits :)11:00
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bryyceyeah I am going to hammer on it more11:01
bryycebtw, I'm thinking the right place for this to live is as a patch on gdm - does that sound reasonable?11:02
pittibryyce: hm, either that or the place which currently produces those broken blue screens?11:03
pittibryyce: with gdm you'd have to do it for all dms11:03
pittilike kdm and the XFCE one at least11:03
bryyceI'm guessing the blue screens are generated by xorg-server itself11:03
pittiright, Xorg should notice if it couldn't start up11:03
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bryyceyeah, unfortunately this approach relies on a gdm hook that kdm doesn't have (haven't looked at xmms yet)11:04
pittixmms? :)11:04
bryyceer11:04
bryycexfce ;-)11:04
pittiautofingers11:04
bryycezactly11:04
pittibryyce: why is it significantly easier to hack this into gdm than into X?11:05
bryyceI don't have strong feelings either way11:05
bryyceI figured gdm since it hooks in via the gdm.conf file11:05
bryycehowever it isn't really gdm specific other than the hook11:06
bryyceso putting it in xorg-server might make sense if/when we can also hook into kdm.  hmm11:06
pittibryyce: I figure eventually it can call kde-guidance on Kubuntu and such?11:06
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bryyceyup11:07
pittiit could just check which is available and pick the first11:07
shawarmaWell, both zenity and displayconfig-gtk are not going to work all that well on a Kubuntu system anyway?11:07
pittiand if nothing's there, just call dpkg-reconfigure -phigh xserver-xorg :)11:07
bryyceshawarma: shouldn't matter11:07
shawarmabryyce: right, just read the bit about kde-guidance..11:07
pittishawarma: right, but guidance should; after all, displayconfig-gtk was ported from KDE :)11:07
bryycewe're not loading the window manager proper at all11:07
shawarmapitti: Oh, really? I didn't know.11:07
bryycehowever, I do like the idea that the dialog used for configuring in failsafe is the same as when they're logged into whatever they normally use11:08
pittishawarma: yeah, it sometimes happens in this direction, too11:08
bryycesince things will look the same, etc.11:08
pittibryyce: right, merely checking for which one is available will not be 100% right, but it's a fine start11:08
bryyceyeah displayconfig-gtk and kde's displayconfig both use the guidance_backends package11:08
pittithe latter was recenlty split out; yay no more code duplication :)11:09
bryycefor now I'm just focusing on the gnome/ubuntu, to keep it simple.  I think it should be straightforward to adapt it to other window managers once the basics are proven11:09
pittiright, it just needs to be kept in mind11:10
bryycemost of the hard work is going to be in getting it to boot up reliably on any random piece of hardware11:10
bryycepitti, yup!  Unfortunately, presently installing guidance_backends pulls in a bunch of Qt libs too11:10
pittibryyce: how good does the 'no xorg.conf' mode work currently?11:10
bryycepitti, works great11:10
pittiyuck @ qt libs11:11
pittiI was planning to use that for restricted-manager11:11
bryycepitti, a lot of systems I've tested it on came up just fine11:11
pitticool, I gotta try that11:11
pittiit'll give me the wrong resolution, but still11:12
bryycebut when you want custom stuff - extra font paths, binary drivers, different keyboard layouts, etc. then obviously that's a problem11:12
pittikeyboard layout is the worst thing probably11:12
bryycehowever I understand xserver 1.3 will accept partial xorg.conf's, where you leave display/device/etc. empty and just specify stuff you wish to override11:12
pittibut as long as you can drive the recovery with the mouse, its probably ok11:12
bryycebut I haven't tested that out11:12
bryycexserver 1.4 is going to have input hotplug as well, so maybe many of these customizations will not be needed either11:13
Riddellbryyce: that should be fixed no?11:13
pittiDepends: libc6 (>= 2.5-5), libx11-6, libxext6, libxrandr2 (>= 2:1.2.0), libxrender1, libxss1, libxxf86vm1, python (>= 2.5), python-support (>= 0.3.4), python (<< 2.6)11:13
pittilooks fine to me11:13
pitti(guidance-backends)11:13
bryyceok hmm11:14
Riddellit's a recent fix11:14
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cjwatsonpartial xorg.conf - it pretty much has to, that's going to be the common case :)11:14
bryyceahh, I must have grabbed before that11:14
pittiRiddell: btw, would you mind if I put my spacing fix there?11:14
bryycecjwatson: yup11:14
pittiRiddell: it changes the tabs/spacing to be like the one dexconf writes11:14
Riddellpitti: what does that do?11:14
Riddellpitti: hmm, ask _Sime_ first, he's the upstream11:15
pittibut just that, no functional changes11:15
pittiRiddell: it's probably not appropriate for upstream, since that's a distro-level custom11:15
pittibut sure, I'll ping him11:15
cjwatsonso if I have xserver 1.3 installed, can I just delete the Device, Monitor, and Screen sections and let it try to guess?11:15
Riddellpitti: actually ignore me, we discussed that patch before in #k-d and it's fine to apply11:16
pittiRiddell: cool, then I'll do that and throw out the copy from r-m11:16
bryycecjwatson: or delete their contents11:16
bryycecjwatson: ah yeah it looks like you can delete the contents entirely11:17
bryycestill need the ServerLayout section though11:18
bryyceSection "ServerLayout"11:18
bryyce  Identifier "Default Layout"11:18
bryyce  InputDevice "Generic Keyboard"11:18
bryyce  InputDevice "Configured Mouse"11:18
bryyceEndSection11:18
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cjwatsonbut delete the Screen line from ServerLayout?11:18
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bryyceyup11:20
pittigood night everyone11:23
bryycecya11:23
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