=== Monk-e [n=guido@c529dd229.cable.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mdz_ [i=mdz@nat/google/x-8124a4123a191ea9] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:14] hey mdz_ [12:16] hi === gnomefreak [n=gnomefre@ubuntu/member/gnomefreak] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jml [n=jml@ppp121-44-219-120.lns1.hba1.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === gnomefreak [n=gnomefre@ubuntu/member/gnomefreak] has joined #ubuntu-devel === didymo [n=ashley@CPE-61-9-197-223.static.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel === tiiiam [n=jonathon@24-107-8-64.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LordLimecat [n=limecat@ip24-255-112-71.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:36] is there a known bug whereby if ubuntu crashes, theres a chance syslog will have a line filled with "^@" on it, causing gnome-system-log to crash? [12:37] its happened twice, and removing the offendign line (thru nano, since gedit is also unable to read the file) seems to fix the issue === tiiiam [n=jonathon@24-107-8-64.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has left #ubuntu-devel [] === fabiomaximiano [n=fabio@201-40-20-220.bsaco300.ipd.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-devel === xtknight [n=xtknight@c-68-43-122-102.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === cypherbios [n=cypher@ubuntu/member/cypherbios] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:00] if its of any help, its writing 1745 or 1746 bytes worth of 0x0s to the following logs: /var/log/messages /var/log/syslog /var/log/kern.log === mikmorg [n=mikmorg@pool-71-98-110-171.ipslin.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:07] LordLimecat: I have never seen such behaviour; it could be caused by filesystem corruption [01:07] yea, well, its possibly because upon returning to comp (both times) it wasnt responding, so i tried alt+sysrq+x, no response.... [01:07] so i did alt+sysrq+b [01:07] .,....and rebooted [01:08] it's fairly common on a system crash, unless you use data=journal [01:08] and if you use xfs, it's basically a given [01:08] but the exact same thing, same data written, same quantity [01:08] 1745 bytes worth of 0s [01:08] cant be random [01:08] ...can it? [01:08] (it == the 0x0's in files that are open and being written to at time of crash) [01:09] well, there was data written RIGHT before system went down, after the 0s-- [01:09] noting that a reboot was requested [01:09] Which filesystem do you use? [01:09] ext3 [01:09] i MAY have changed its writeback [01:09] possibly [01:09] how do i check quickly [01:09] Eh. Data is certainly not guaranteed to be there if you don't reboot cleanly [01:10] Before doing sysrq+b, do sysrq+s [01:10] couldnt :( couldnt get to terminal [01:10] oh, i generally do that [01:10] ...but didnt this time [01:10] is there a way to...like..bump it to init 1 with a system call? [01:10] the problem is likely that the oops output you see is being written [01:11] so this isnt really a bug? [01:11] and since it's the same oops, will always be the same length... [01:11] it's a bug that gnome-system-log is crashing. [01:11] lol, yea, it was a PITA to track it down [01:11] luckily, gedit also refuses to open the files [01:11] makes it easy to find [01:12] ...is it a bad idea to make a script that finds and removes 1745 0s from those 3 logs? [01:12] could that cause any damage? === Spads [n=spacehob@unaffiliated/spads] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jmg [n=cartel@shinobi.thoughtcrime.org.nz] has left #ubuntu-devel [] === hggdh [n=hggdh@72-255-103-116.client.stsn.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === milli [n=milli@famfrit.acmeps.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === zul [n=chuck@ubuntu/member/zul] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mat [n=mat@igoan/mat] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jack_wyt [n=jack@124.64.106.72] has joined #ubuntu-devel === cjwatson [n=cjwatson@82-69-40-219.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LordLimecat [n=limecat@ip24-255-112-71.dc.dc.cox.net] has left #ubuntu-devel [] === RadiantFire [n=ryan@ip68-230-209-186.rd.hr.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === cypher1 [n=cypher1@c-68-83-184-230.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === j_ack [n=jack@p508D8C44.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jsgotangco [n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-devel === johanbr [n=j@blk-224-156-151.eastlink.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel === dtolj_ [n=b6001b10@142.204.140.28] has left #ubuntu-devel [] === thully [n=thully@dpc6746164142.direcpc.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === infinity2 is now known as infinity [03:00] hi - I'm a MacBook user and wondered who I would get in contact with about getting some of the bugs relating to it fixed in Gutsy... === hggdh [n=hggdh@72-255-103-116.client.stsn.net] has left #ubuntu-devel [] [03:01] thully: your best starting place is searching Launchpad's Ubuntu section for the specific bugs you've encountered. === Keybuk [n=scott@quest.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:03] I've looked at the bugs, and responded, and heard nothing in months === jono [n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono] has joined #ubuntu-devel === persia [n=persia@ubuntu/member/persia] has joined #ubuntu-devel === somebody0000 [i=someone@84.39.101.126] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:18] One bug is 92635 (MacBook doesn't sleep) - I've got a temporary kernel fix, and it seems like something could be done for Gutsy [03:23] BenC, ping === Monk-e [n=guido@c529dd229.cable.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel === licio [n=licio@ubuntu/member/licio] has joined #ubuntu-devel === bren [n=bren@74-131-212-151.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jsgotangco_ [n=jsg123@121.97.243.223] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mpt [n=mpt@121-72-131-30.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jsgotangco_ [n=jsg123@121.97.243.223] has joined #ubuntu-devel === zul_ [n=chuck@CPE0006258ec6c1-CM000a73655d0e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === hggdh [n=hggdh@72-255-103-116.client.stsn.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === hggdh [n=hggdh@72-255-103-116.client.stsn.net] has left #ubuntu-devel [] === RAOF [n=Chris_@matht464.maths.unsw.edu.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:33] does anyone know how I can get in touch with the Ubuntu kernel/laptop team about getting the issues with macBooks - many of which I know the issue and have some ideas about solutions - fixed in Gutsy [04:33] the bugs have all been reported long ago === jsgotangco [n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-devel [04:43] thully: LP is the mechanism by whcih such things are done [04:43] *which [04:49] I haven't managed to get any response via that channel... [04:50] bug #? [04:50] thully: If you have a solution, try attaching a patch against the ubuntu git repository to the bug, and adding the patch tag. [04:51] well, the solution is kind of hackish at this point [04:52] 92635 is the bug # - me and some others have used the mentioned workaround patch to get suspend on first-generation MacBooks [04:52] For some reason, 1g MacBooks are funky with their suspend... [04:54] I also was going to comment on - but I can't find the bug # off hand, though it has been reported - the absolutely craptastic state of the appletouch driver [04:55] that's not a bug, though [04:55] that's a feature request [04:55] it is a bug, as it is SO craptastic that you can't change the mouse pointer acceleration - something you can do even with dumb old usbhid [04:57] upstream has acknowledged this as a bug? [04:57] I haven't contacted upstream - all I know is that appletouch as shipped w/ Feisty doesn't let you change pointer acceleration [04:58] right now, I'm actually running in VMware as I got sick of the issues - figure I may download gutsy and install on the bare metal tonight to check on these issues [04:58] does it have the cntrols to do so, but just doesn't do it? [04:59] yes - if you go into GNOME's mouse control panel - or Xorg.conf - and change the acceleration, nothing happens [05:08] are you on the Macbook now? [05:16] yes - I don't have a raw install right now, though, as I just got it back from repairs and it was wiped by Apple [05:17] I could install Feisty now, or I could get a Gutsy ISO (would have to be later - am on satellite with strict bandwidth caps) and try that [05:18] BTW, just reported the trackpad issue - 119964 [05:26] sudo rmmod appletouch && sudo modprobe appletouch [05:27] that may clear up some Appletouch woes. try it next time you're in Ubuntu. [05:28] I could try the Feisty live CD in a few minutes if that would help... [05:29] up to you. i'm not a maintainer for any of that stuff. ;) [05:30] OK [05:30] just something to try. [05:30] and if you narrow it to the kernel module, you're making progress. [05:31] OK - I figure I can find out some from the Feisty live CD - I'll get the Gutsy one if it seems I may be able to learn more that way [05:33] thully: It's possible you'll have more luck in #ubuntu-kernel . [05:33] OK - wondered if there was a "kernel" channel... [05:35] Also, on a (somewhat-unrelated) note, is VMware considered a supported configuration for running/testing Ubuntu in general? I'm using it ATM because my hardware works better and I can switch OSes fast (still use OS X a lot - I like both OSes) [05:36] obviously not for testing issues w/ MacBook hardware (like the aforementioned appletouch issues) but just in general [05:41] thully: I don't know. My guess is that it would depend on the sort of bug you encounter. For higher-level bugs I'd think it'd be okay, but as you say not for kernel/hardware things. [05:42] well, it does seem like kernel/hardware issues would be valid - though my hardware would basically be a VMware VM instead of the actual machine I'm running on [05:45] thully: the kernel speaks to hardware. VMWare is not hardware. [05:45] thully: an abstraction layer between the kernel and metal is nothing but a DIStraction layer when reporting bugs. [05:46] Right. My guess would be that the kernel developers might just say "vmware is closed source, we have no way of knowing which bugs the virtualization introduces". If you really want to know, you should ask them, though. [05:46] VMWare cannot keep accurate time. even with ntpd installed. === jvw [i=jeroen@220pc220.sshunet.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:47] let that inform your thinking about VMWare's relationship to hardware. [05:47] If you really want to view vmware as hardware, it's not on the list of supported architectures, in any case. [05:48] VMWare *is* hardware when it comes to its interactions with the kernel. [05:48] I see, I knew that would come up. [05:48] (gross oversimplification, but the sentiment is valid) [05:48] I wouldn't be filing many kernel bugs in any case - most of them I'd test would be bare metal bugs (like appletouch) [05:49] thully: VMWare can't keep its clock straight. you want to report issues with input device timings? [05:49] thully: Appletouch is hardware. the kernel talks to hardware. VMWare stands between the kernel and hardware .... [05:50] appletouch isn't in vmware - those were two totally separate issues [05:51] sorry for confusing everyone [05:52] I just meant in general if I were to use VMware at some point and file bugs - not using vmware to test macbook hardware bugs [05:52] eh, if everyone apologised every time i didn't understand coherent English, IRC would be nothing but "sorry, mnep" [05:52] just be sure to mention VMWare's place in the recipe when appropriate. :) [05:53] I realized that it was pretty much like its own hardware === azeem [n=mbanck@ppp-88-217-39-101.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === geser_ [i=mb@ubuntu/member/geser] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:58] OK - thanks - figure I'll reboot onto bare metal Ubuntu and try some things with appletouch === Knightlust [n=Dax@ubuntu/member/knightlust] has joined #ubuntu-devel === gouki_ [n=gouki@ubuntu/member/gouki] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pbn [i=pbn@wopr.geekshells.org] has joined #ubuntu-devel === thully [n=ubuntu@dpc6746164142.direcpc.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:30] http://mcmaster.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2207033242 [06:32] for those of you who were on when I was discussing my appletouch problem - I've discovered that an rmmod and modprobe of the module fixes the issue until X is restarted [06:33] after X is restarted, you have to do it again if you want proper acceleration === wasabi_ [n=wasabi@cpe-76-184-122-13.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:38] morning guys === predius_ [n=predius@190.8.154.185] has joined #ubuntu-devel [06:42] morning fabbione === stub [n=stub@ppp-58.8.16.153.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #ubuntu-devel === StevenK waves to fabbione [06:51] hi pygi [06:51] StevenK: you got mail [06:51] fabbione: I'm not not so sure that tig and lyx are too blame. [06:51] nope.. they are not [06:51] you will have to ask sysadmin help here to see what's happening in the buildds [06:52] and unfortunately i can't help you there === StevenK nods. [06:52] I saw this problem a few days ago, with all buildds doing the same thing, spinning with no logs and not changing state. I'm suspecting a LP bug. [06:53] oh well just ask for rescheduling [06:53] it might have been the congestion thingy on LP [06:53] anyway you know they build [06:54] Okay, so bug $BUILDD_PERSON for a requeue of lyx and tig on sparc. That's fine. === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-devel === freeflying [n=freeflyi@123.116.102.227] has joined #ubuntu-devel === siti [n=siti@clix-jaquesmartin-nz.cpe.clix.net.nz] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:00] morning all! [07:01] word. [07:02] hrm? [07:03] heya Hobbsee :) === desrt is desperately trying to get from manchester to nijmegen without spending a fortune [07:04] good luck with that. walk? swim? [07:05] i wanted to take the train, but that's just ridiculous. [07:05] and i'll have some luggage.... so swimming is probably a bad idea. [07:06] awww === mpt [n=mpt@121-72-131-30.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === nags [n=nags@125.16.129.16] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pygi eats Hobbsee === Hobbsee is not worth eating. [07:14] pygi: mpt is probably better to eat. === mfmenzer [n=menzemth@fw.luk.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:14] Hobbsee, but no! === mfmenzer [n=menzemth@fw.luk.de] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Ex-Chat"] [07:15] pygi: why no? [07:15] no idea, just because =) === Hobbsee is too thin to eat. === Hobbsee has very little body fat, therefore would nto roast up well [07:16] your point? :P [07:16] unless you're into bones, of course. [07:16] lol === Hobbsee glances over in Mithrandir's direction === Hobbsee hides from Mithrandir [07:17] I'll be back [07:17] math exam === mfmenzer [n=menzemth@fw.luk.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:18] pygi: have fun. make up lots of rubbish [07:19] Hobbsee, are you calling me fat? [07:19] mpt: no, i'm calling you bigger than me. [07:19] mpt: which, seeing as racarr was the only one smaller than me, isnt hard. [07:19] (at UDS) [07:19] there's a difference. [07:25] on the node.. it's not difficult to be bigger than Hobbsee :))) [07:25] the problem is if you are more thin than she is... you might consider a doctor appointment ;) [07:26] Or a career as a supermodel. [07:26] haha === StevenK hides. [07:26] StevenK: i'm not pretty enough to do that :P [07:27] I wasn't at UDS, but I'm pretty small [07:27] mpt: still slightly larger than Hobbsee :) [07:28] mpt: i met both of you... [07:28] We shall find out for sure at the next UDS :-) [07:28] mpt: you could probably handle my weight on you... [07:28] she would crack :P [07:28] mpt: not in boston === mpt flees [07:28] fabbione, not a chance [07:28] ahha [07:28] mpt: i'm thin enough that a person like seveas could easily break my wrist, if he tried hard enough [07:28] mpt: i lost since last we met :) [07:29] Fatherhood is hard work? [07:29] mpt: and another bunch of reasons [07:29] ah [07:29] mpt: remember i haven't been feeling very well recently.. so that adds up === tbf [n=mathias@ip-80-226-0-1.vodafone-net.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === huahua [n=huahua@60.20.49.90] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Burgundavia [n=corey@ubuntu/member/burgundavia] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Q-FUNK [n=q-funk@dsl-hkibras1-ff55c300-121.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #ubuntu-devel === thekorn [n=thekorn@a89-182-14-105.net-htp.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === elkbuntu [n=melissa@ubuntu/member/elkbuntu] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Lure [n=lure@external-1.hermes.si] has joined #ubuntu-devel === anibal [n=anibal@debian/developer/anibal] has joined #ubuntu-devel === bonii [n=bonii@unaffiliated/bonii] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Yasumoto [n=joe@cpe-75-84-49-174.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === elkbuntu [n=melissa@ubuntu/member/elkbuntu] has joined #ubuntu-devel === thully [n=thully@dpc6746164142.direcpc.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === viviersf [n=cain@gw.impilinux.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Fujitsu [n=william@c58-107-52-79.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel === blackskad [n=blackska@d54C1A48C.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel === stu1 [n=stub@ppp-58.8.8.95.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:40] I'm looking at the squid merge. Apart from the stuff that's mentioned in the last changelog, the patch that MoM has created also contains a bunch of translation releated stuff. Now, since the last patch (the one between our previous version and the debian version on which it's based) did not contain any of that stuff, I don't quite get where it came from? It may just be because I have absolutely no idea how all our translation stuff is handled. [08:41] shawarma: i believe that launchpad automaticlaly updates the translations on build, or something. it's thru launchpad, regardless. [08:42] Hobbsee: But that does not interfere with source packages in any way, I suppose? [08:42] i'm not sure [08:42] I don't see how it could since they're signed and all that. [08:42] shawarma: talk to pitti, he set up the language pack stuff [08:43] Burgundavia: Right. [08:45] Burgundavia: How's it going? New job yet? [08:46] not yet [08:46] Burgundavia: On purpose? [08:46] sadly, not [08:46] although quitting was very much "on purpose" [08:47] Yes, my keen jedi senses told me that, too. === amitk [n=amit@a81-197-135-210.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #ubuntu-devel === chaoslawful_ [i=chaos@nat/yahoo/x-bb1d130a44e6930e] has joined #ubuntu-devel === xipietotec_ [n=jackfros@cpe-67-49-247-144.dc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:54] are there any plans in ubuntu+x releases to use suspend2? [08:54] xipietotec_: not unless it gets into the main kernel, iirc. [08:54] check what the mailing lists say on it (ubuntu-devel, ubuntu-devel-discuss) - the archives are tehre [08:55] ah, gotcha. duh, that makes sense. [09:02] xipietotec_: it is the kind of thing that needs to get upstream, unless it provided such amazing functionality as to require the huge delta [09:03] Well, evidently it works *better* than normal hibernate [09:04] given how much laptop support has been a priority for Ubuntu and the fact that it isn't in basically means it ain't comin' until upstream gets it === xipietotec_ caresses his new dell with ubuntu preinstalled === dholbach [n=daniel@i59F718A8.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === hunger [n=tobias@pd95b0676.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:06] good morning === Spads [n=spacehob@unaffiliated/spads] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:07] hey dholbach [09:07] hiya Burgundavia === erlingre [n=erlingre@85.234.150.88] has joined #ubuntu-devel === dholbach_ [n=daniel@i59F706F1.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === hunger [n=tobias@pd95b0676.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pygi [n=mario@161.53.120.107] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:18] hey folks [09:18] hiya pygi, how was maths? [09:19] Hobbsee, easy, but I won't pass sadly [09:19] I blame my complete of interest in the subject === persia [n=persia@ubuntu/member/persia] has left #ubuntu-devel [] [09:19] Hobbsee, want to upload a debdiff so I don't have to bug mvo when he's around? ;) [09:19] awww. it's useful to pass [09:19] it is ofcourse completely acceptable and working :) [09:19] and a debdiff for what? [09:20] no kidding :P [09:20] brasero package [09:20] oh ick. === Hobbsee should go study [09:21] Hobbsee, then go ^_^ [09:21] and pass things, unlike me :) === mvo [n=egon@p54A67D50.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === gnomefreak [n=gnomefre@ubuntu/member/gnomefreak] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:23] hey mvo [09:23] hey dholbach [09:23] hiya mvo [09:24] ooh, if mvo is here, i can ask him about my plans for dput. [09:24] You have plans for dput? === StevenK has patches in dput. [09:24] hey Hobbsee! === seb128 [n=seb128@ubuntu/member/seb128] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:24] StevenK: i know, i saw :) === StevenK grins. === gnomefreak [n=gnomefre@ubuntu/member/gnomefreak] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mvo wonders what kind of plans [09:25] mvo: it seems that no ubuntu system, including upload.ubuntu.com and revu, allow you to use dcut [09:25] dput* [09:25] mvo: so siretart and myself are thinking of putting in a message saying that "this does not apply to ubuntu systems" or something [09:26] That's do-able. [09:26] that's what i thought [09:26] some o fit's in bzr too, not the latest version though. no idea why. === asac_ [n=asac@debian/developer/asac] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:35] Hobbsee: No ubuntu system allows you to use dput? Um... WhaT? [09:35] shawarma: Not dput, *dcut* [09:36] shawarma: dcut. === Hobbsee checks that she wrote dcut. [09:36] oh yes, i did. [09:36] StevenK: Ah, I just saw the "dput*" thing, and didn't notice it wasnt' Hobbsee saying it. :) [09:36] hehe === Hobbsee blames pygi [09:36] shawarma: i'm not *usually* an idiot. [09:36] Hobbsee, what did I do this time?!?! [09:36] shawarma: so i wont usually say stupid stuff like that [09:37] Hobbsee: I *was* kind of puzzled. [09:37] oh! [09:37] Hobbsee, nop, your fault [09:38] shawarma: then again, i did ask "is a package still in the new queue" without just looking it up. [09:38] Hobbsee: That's not stupid. That's just lazy, which is entirely different and entirely alright. [09:39] shawarma: what's stupid about it is that i didnt even think of it. [09:39] getting the rejected mail was a red herring, so confused me :P [09:40] (and the powers that be say "we gave her core because...?") [09:40] :) === huahua_ [n=huahua@60.20.48.147] has joined #ubuntu-devel === giskard [n=giskard@62-101-126-218.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:45] hey giskard :0 [09:45] hello pygi :) === hunger [n=tobias@pd95b0676.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:46] giskard, how is it going? [09:47] bad, in 10 days i have my final school exam [09:48] meh, I just had math exam [09:48] was bad :p === ssam [n=ssam@87.127.117.246] has joined #ubuntu-devel === zenrox [n=zenrox@pool-71-115-211-46.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:54] I am absolutely delighted with my discovery that there is such a thing as the "International Standard Atmosphere" [09:55] the what? [09:55] shawarma: merge-o-matic does some translation merging with specialised tools, which is nice if you actually changed the translations but an interference if you didn't; if those diffs are pointless, ditch them [09:55] haha, cool [09:56] hey Keybuk [09:56] mneptok: we use VMware fairly extensively internally for testing, so on a practical level it's a good idea for us to accept at least some number of bugs about it [09:56] cjwatson: Cool. Thanks. [09:56] Keybuk: so you gave compiz to mvo? ;) [09:56] heh, was just /msg'ing you about that :p [09:56] Hobbsee: it's to do with how plane altimeters work [09:56] yeah, i wikipedia'd. [09:57] eventually [09:57] Hobbsee: in an ideal world, a reject would always be accompanied by a mail [09:57] an explanatory one rather than the LP standard "kthxbye" one [09:58] cjwatson: indeed. [09:58] cjwatson: but it makes enough sense, as is. unless you screw it up originally [09:58] Hobbsee: unfortunately, there's a long-standing bug in soyuz noting that the reject interface doesn't let us give a reason, so it relies on the rejecting archive admin remembering to fish out all the e-mail addresses and send mails by hand [09:58] which, in the case of bulk things like de-duplication, is less likely [09:58] cjwatson: ahhh, okay. fair enough === Arby [n=richard@shiny.york.ac.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:08] keyutils is in universe, is that why krb5 doesn't build? === huahua [n=huahua@60.20.58.41] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:09] tepsipakki: yes [10:09] Hobbsee: okay, I'll file a MIR === Arby [n=richard@shiny.york.ac.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mfmenzer [n=menzemth@fw.luk.de] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Ex-Chat"] === Arby [n=richard@shiny.york.ac.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Zdra [n=zdra@195.244.169.43] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-devel === glatzor [n=sebi@p57AEEF9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jono [n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:29] Hobbsee: I'd have no problems with removing that message completely === Hobbsee nods [10:29] Hobbsee: because the set of people who would be using an ubuntu dput to upload to debian normally would know about dcut, I think [10:30] Hobbsee: but changing it is fine to me as well [10:30] right....that's a point === zakame [n=zakame@ubuntu/member/zakame] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:30] siretart: um, about REVU - what's the "official" way to get something out of the rejected queue? [10:30] i've just been moving the changes file up a directory, but i've got no idea what's supposed to happen [10:30] Keybuk: "Ow! You broke my nose!" - very funny :) [10:30] I'll reprocess it [10:31] siretart: seems to work, at least some of the time. [10:32] Hobbsee: the script who processes the incoming directory is /srv/revu1-production/scripts/process_uploads.sh. it is run from revu1's crontab every 5 minutes [10:32] siretart: right [10:33] dholbach: I wasn't going to even start on the fact that using 1024 multiples for disk or storage devices is wrong anyway, and disks are measured in thousands, millions & billions of bytes === heno [n=henrik@ubuntu/member/heno] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:33] siretart: persia probably wants/needs access to resync the keyring, etc, too - he's diong a lot of reviewing. [10:33] siretart: i dont think you and him have actually been around at the same time, though [10:34] Keybuk: seems like a good move as the topic is quite suitable for flame wars [10:34] it's cold today [10:35] right === cassidy [n=cassidy@220.87-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:35] Keybuk: my dog love you for that, if it was true [10:35] Keybuk: you'd get on well with the partman author [10:36] cjwatson: heh === gpocentek [n=gauvain@ubuntu/member/gloubiboulga] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:36] there's a special note in the ubiquity partman frontend that has to say "this is measured in 1000000, not 1048576" or words to that effect [10:36] it's true, disk manufactures do actually use 1000 byte multiple, not 1024 [10:36] indeed [10:36] except sometimes they use a mix [10:37] 1024000 and that sort of thing [10:37] heh, yeah, sometimes they like to use thousands and millions of 1024 bytes [10:37] personally I think that kilo, mega, giga are the only way forward [10:37] Keybuk: and rid the world of crappy imperial measurements, and timezones, while you're at it, please. [10:37] because they by saying "this drive has a capacity of 100GB (100 billion bytes)", you're guaranteeing the minimum number of bytes it is likely to have :p [10:38] trying to be more specific is just guess-work [10:39] Keybuk: KB is defined as 1000Byte (MB as 1000KB, and so forth). [10:39] Keybuk: No guesswork required. [10:39] Keybuk: 1024Bytes are a KiB. [10:40] that's a retcon though [10:41] There actually is a international standard about that stuff... [10:41] it is unarguably not what KB has always meant, and thus guesswork is required. [10:41] hunger: there's an international standard cup of tea, that doesn't mean you can't drink coffee [10:41] Keybuk: Of course not. But then you as the distribution guys need to fix it;-) [10:42] yeah, I think we should put this to the technical board ... [10:42] I vote for "use KB and MB and GB everywhere, and eradicate all uses of KiB, MiB and GiB because they cause confusion" [10:42] because we have nothing better to do? [10:42] Keybuk: Yes, rage against the standards! [10:43] hunger: stupid standards, yes [10:43] just because someone wrote a "standard", doesn't mean it's right [10:43] Keybuk: Well, it tries to end the confusion you complained about. Just sticking to "we always did it that way" will not do it. [10:44] especially when the person wrote a standard didn't reference the current practice [10:44] the "KiB" standard has caused more confusion than the prior practice did [10:44] that's like "I have a better idea how to do this, if I write a standard, then people will obey me! muahahaha!" [10:44] a bit like the IRC standard, actually [10:44] === chand| [n=rsamson@linagoraberri.pck.nerim.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:45] Well, do whatever you want. You'll do so anyway;-) [10:45] hunger: in general, I've found that places that refer to things as KiB are using the wrong unit anyway [10:45] worst offenders using it to refer to disk space, or bandwidth, etc. [10:46] Keybuk: I have not made that experience yet. [10:46] the primary advantage to KB is that, in the worst case, it slightly under-estimates === seb128 [n=seb128@ubuntu/member/seb128] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mc44 [n=mc44@unaffiliated/mc44] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:46] hunger: the main place I see it is in ifconfig [10:46] Keybuk: Diskspace is traditionally in MB/GB... which started the whole mess. [10:46] to measure bandwidth [10:46] which is so utterly bogus, it's funny [10:46] bandwidth should be measured in thousands, millions, etc. of bytes [10:47] what shocks me is just how much effort people have put into this whole thing [10:47] there are huge threads on both ubuntu and debian-devel [10:47] Keybuk: Why is it bogus? If it is the proper unit for the thing they measure it is fine. [10:47] hunger: that's the point, it isn;t [10:47] Burgundavia: "huge"? you don't read debian-devel often, do you? ;) [10:47] seb128: right, moderately large :) [10:47] huge would be an Ubuntu flamewar [10:48] anti-ubuntu, that is [10:48] Keybuk: Yes. I don't care how it is measured, as long as the proper unit of measurement is given. [10:48] hunger: and in this case, the wrong unit of measurement is given [10:48] hunger: which is the case with every instance of Ki I've ever seen [10:49] Keybuk: So far I had no trouble with that. All Ki I noticed so far (and that does *not* include ifconfig;-) seemed to be properly 1024 based. [10:49] hunger: inappropriately 1024 basde [10:49] hunger: ie. using multiples of 1024 for things that should be multiples of 1000 [10:50] Keybuk: This discussion is a bit like using inches or centimeters. [10:50] exactly ;) let's standardise on centimetres! [10:50] (and spell it right :p) [10:51] Keybuk: As long as the proper unit is attached I do not really care. I just don't like the KiB on 1000 based values (never encountered those) or KB being based on 1024 (happens a lot). [10:51] it shouldn't be KiB anyway [10:51] it should by kiB [10:52] Keybuk: right. === chand| [n=rsamson@linagoraberri.pck.nerim.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mc44 [n=mc44@unaffiliated/mc44] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mvo_ [n=egon@p54A64893.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:52] we could solve this with Unicode! [10:52] B! [10:53] Actually I usually do not even care wether 1000 or 1024 is the base... as long as enough free space is available to store my stuff;-) [10:53] hunger: right, in which case you should always use 1000 as the base, because then in the worst case you have more space than quoted === hunger sighs. Unicode rocks. [10:53] using 1024 or 1024000 means you could have less space than quoted [10:53] :p [10:54] !seveas [10:54] oops [10:54] Seveas has a popular 3rd party repository for several packages. More info (and mirrors) on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeveasPackages [10:55] Only ignorant US citizens speak up against unicode;-) === mvo__ [n=egon@p54A659F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:56] hunger: You'd be surprised.. [10:56] I never said anything bad about Univode [10:56] uh, code [10:56] hunger: I know a handful of {free,open}bsd people who absolutely refuse to use anything but iso-8859-* [10:57] shawarma: well, they use BSD, they're already swimming against the tides of inevitability ;) [10:57] shawarma: ignarant bastards... "I do not need more than 256letters, why should anybody else?" [10:58] easy === Monk-e [n=guido@c529dd229.cable.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:00] hunger: It's a *very* frustrating discussion. I've had it with them many times now. Their argument always goes something like "Whaaaa! I once saw one of my 's that didn't look right because someone used utf-8.. Whaaa!" [11:00] shawarma: I can imagine:-( [11:02] then there are applications that don't work with utf.. like Tectia ssh-client for windows [11:03] which is maybe the biggest obstacle for utf adoption here === carlos__ [n=carlos@163.pool85-48-166.static.orange.es] has joined #ubuntu-devel === persia [n=persia@ubuntu/member/persia] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:04] There's putty... === pitti [n=pitti@ubuntu/member/pitti] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:05] mjr: true, it works [11:05] Good morning [11:05] copy/pasting is just weird in it, though [11:05] hiya pitti! [11:05] tepsipakki: Yes, let's head back to stoneage... at least everything worked back then. [11:05] now, it has to be decided do we change tectia to putty&winscp and modify all the documentation there is [11:05] copy/pasting in putty is X normal === pitti hugs Hobbsee [11:06] hunger: rather, stay there :) === Hobbsee hugs pitti :) [11:06] there's a configuration option to switch it to a more Windows-ish behaviour if you prefer that [11:06] cjwatson: ahhh. i must find that. actually, i tihnk i did, one day [11:06] cjwatson: yep [11:06] mvo: ping? === antonym55 [n=antony@202.105.146.122] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:07] tectia will be fixed early next year, but it's too late if we are to adopt nfsv4 [11:07] anyway, offtopic :) [11:08] mvo: I just confirmed the app-install-data install failure bug [11:08] hello fabbione [11:08] tepsipakki: what bugnumber? === chowmeined [n=will_@67.170.91.193] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:08] mvo: hey dude.. [11:08] mvo: Accepted redhat-cluster-suite 2.20070503-0ubuntu3 (source) [11:08] mvo: * Kill libccs-dev binary package. Nothing B-D on it anymore and it will be [11:08] killed upstream too at somepoint. [11:08] mvo: a sec, didn't subscribe to it :P [11:08] mvo: have fun :) [11:09] mvo: just give it time to build and you should be good [11:09] mvo: bug 118740 [11:09] Launchpad bug 118740 in app-install-data-ubuntu "app-install-data : Can't import AppInstall.CoreMenu, aborting" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/118740 [11:09] fabbione: cool! my upstream change the name for libccs as well :) [11:09] mvo: perfect... [11:10] tepsipakki: you get a postinst failure ? [11:10] tepsipakki: can you please put the exact error output from dpkg into the bugreport [11:11] mvo: that's all I see (netboot) [11:11] the same message, that is [11:12] mvo: um, actually the package apparently installs fine, but pkgsel fails [11:14] tepsipakki: so this happens when you try to install a fresh gutsy? ok, I will try to reproduce [11:14] why would pkgsel be involved in an upgrade? [11:14] cjwatson: this was a fresh install [11:14] you said "During the upgrade process" in the bug report [11:14] but the original reporter had an upgrade [11:14] ok, sounds like your problem is different then [11:14] can you put the syslog somewhere I can see it? [11:15] cjwatson: yes, a sec [11:17] ah, found it [11:17]