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ikesireis it true that gutsy won't include ntfs-3g?01:32
ikesire(by default)01:32
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calccrimsun: you here?01:40
calccrimsun: got some alsa devel questions for you01:40
calccrimsun: eg what is NID in reference to patch_realtek.c01:42
=== calc is trying to figure out how this stuff works so he try to fix the ALC268 support
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=== calc has never written an audio driver though
jdahlinWhy isn't a package's source code included in the -dbg deb?01:45
calcjdahlin: why would it be?01:46
calcjdahlin: you can easily get the source via apt-get source01:46
jdahlincalc, for tools such as gdb where the source code is useful01:46
jdahlinwell, the complete source tree is not necessary only the .c files (and perhaps the .h)01:46
minghuajdahlin: but as calc said, it's easy to get the source with "apt-get source", .c, .h, everything.01:48
jdahlinI know that fedora has .debuginfo packages which provides the libraries/programs compiled with debugging symbols in addition to the source code01:48
jdahlinminghua, *I* am not interested in reading the source code, I programs that uses the debugging symbols to be able to read it01:48
persiajdahlin: A couple other reasons are 1) archive space, and 2) reduction of redundancy.  The -dbg package is useful for those generating stack traces.  The source is useful for those investigating the issue.  These are not always the same person, and the source must be distributed separately in any case.01:48
minghuaI don't see the point.  The -dbg package should give you the function name and the filename and line number01:50
jdahlinpersia, -dbg doesn't seem to be something the normal user installs, I can't quite why the source shouldn't be shipped together, it makes it easier for developers to use tools which depends on them (gdb, valgrind for instance)01:50
minghuathat's all you need to identify the problem in the source, if you want to01:50
jdahlinminghua, right, but you're still missing the point. I do not want to track this down manually, I'd like tools to be able to use the references01:50
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minghuajdahlin: it also duplicate the source several times (once for each architecture) and consume a lot of archive space01:51
persiajdahlin: Matter of preference I suppose.  I often don't need the -dbg or -dbgsym package when working on a stacktrace generated by someone else, and don't always try to fix stacktraces I generate.01:51
jdahlinthe -dbg package for glib points to a path inside a buildd root, it's not very useful...01:51
jdahlinminghua, that could be solved by having a separate repository for debugging packages01:51
minghuahonestly I don't see how that would help anything01:52
jdahlinminghua, I guess you don't use gdb a lot do you?01:53
minghuaIt's probably a little more convenient for those who do debugging, but the downside is not worth it01:53
minghuajdahlin: no I don't01:53
ikesireis it true that gutsy won't include ntfs-3g by default (on the install cd)?01:53
jdahlinpersia, the -dbg packages are already quite heavy and contains redudant information, I can't see why it shouldn't contain all necessary information to make life easier for developers01:53
minghuajdahlin: what redundant information do the -dbg packages contain?01:54
jdahlinminghua, gdb is very painful to use without access to the sources, it's like walking blind folded, you can't really see what you're doing without the source code01:54
jdahlinminghua, a completely new binary!01:55
Fujitsuapt-get source somepackage01:56
persiajdahlin: Aside from archive space, personal preferences, reduction of redundancy, and different (but overlapping) target audiences, I don't have any explanations.01:56
minghuajdahlin: I don't quite know about the -dbgsym packages for Ubuntu, but for Debian, the -dbg packages, if built correctly (with dh_strip, for example), don't contain completely new binaries, only the debug symbols01:56
jdahlinpersia, I can't see who's the target audience for -dbg packages without source code included.01:56
minghuajdahlin: and I believe the -dbgsym packages are the same01:56
persiaminghua: The Ubuntu -dbg and -dbgsym packages also follow that model.01:56
minghuapersia: do ubuntu have different/separate -dbg packages?  I thought not.01:57
FujitsuWe keep most that Debian has, but -dbgsym makes them redundant.01:57
persiajdahlin: Those generating backtraces for bug reports.  These people may not be developers, but they may have just the right environment to generate a crash that cannot be replicated by a developer.  Also, the apport retracing service.01:58
persiaminghua: Sometimes.  Generally the dbgsym packages are enough, but many packages (especially Debian imports) have -dbg packages defined as well.01:59
calccrimsun: ah NID == Node ID01:59
jdahlinpersia, remember that source package is not the same as the source code as I am refering to02:00
jdahlinpersia, the source code I'd like to have included is just all the source files which the debugging symbols refers to02:00
jdahlinpersia, which in general is very small compared to the size of the complete source package02:01
jdahlinsorry, it's not that small I compared compressed vs uncompressed. it appears to be about the same size as the object files.02:05
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=== LongPointyStick waves
=== Fujitsu waves back.
=== minghua gets out of LongPointyStick's way :-P
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LongPointyStickwhy use a pointy end when you can use a person-projectile?02:15
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LongPointyStickat least some of the time02:16
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Nafallosomething has put folders in my homedir!02:23
persiaNafallo: xdg-user-dirs02:24
Nafallobut... why?! :-)02:25
LaserJockmy money is on "because it's fun" ;-)02:26
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BurgundaviaNafallo: to make nice default locations for crap02:35
NafalloBurgundavia: I already have those, and it's not the new folders :-P02:37
Nafallothey use big Capitals ffs ;-)02:37
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superm1hi guys, I was wondering if anyone could speak to casper and the requirements for the hooks to properly work04:28
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sbalneavBooyeah.  fixed nbd-server04:35
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calcScottK: hi :)04:56
ScottKHello calc.04:56
=== ScottK guesses you read my mail to MOTU Council.
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calcScottK: yea05:06
calcScottK: just replied to it05:06
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ScottKcalc: Sounds reasonable.  It's just a little odd for a community driven process when someone shows up and says (essentially, although very politely) I need to be annointed because of the job Canonical gave me.  05:08
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calcScottK: well i was hired for OOo but all of my other debian packages are in core as well05:10
calcthough since i am in debian already i could probably manage to maintain them directly in debian such that they only need sync on ubuntu side05:10
ScottKInterested in fixing any KDE related bugs?05:10
StevenKScottK: Oh no, get your hooks off him. :-P05:11
ajmitchmaybe he's ran away from KDE to preserve sanity?05:11
calci haven't used KDE in several years, stuck with gnome in Ubuntu :)05:11
ScottKcalc: Actually I think that's preferred (work in Debian) that way more people benifit.05:11
calcajmitch: yes thats part of it ;)05:11
ajmitchcalc: and yet you do OOo...05:11
calcajmitch: hehe05:11
calcajmitch: OOo can't be as insane as KDE, er right? ;)05:12
=== ajmitch coughs
calcok so i'm not sane, but its fun anyway05:12
ajmitchthat's probably why they hired you05:12
ajmitchsanity doesn't seem to be a common trait05:12
calcnumber one thing for me is to do work that benefits a lot of people and promotes oss05:12
calcthe best way i saw to do that was to become the OOo guy :)05:13
calci took over KDE when the previous debian guy got burned out on it and orphaned it at all at once05:13
calcwhile i had a full time job and full time school on top of that, heh05:14
calcso i think i am slowly becoming less insane05:14
calcmy current pet bug is to fix the alc268 codec05:16
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=== calc notes he knows nothing about audio drivers yet
=== calc is reading source and datasheets
=== Fujitsu is laughing at calc for having to deal with OOo.
FujitsuThat really can't be pleasant :(05:18
=== superm1 wonders why everyone wants to hear things so badly. first crimsun working on lots of audio bug , then him pawning off audio work to LongPointyStick , and now calc wants to help.
calcsuperm1: my sound doesn't work :)05:20
calcso i am going to fix it myself05:21
=== calc has written webcam and fs drivers before
calclearning enough about hda to actually understand whats going on takes a while though05:23
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calcok i think i have the beginnings of a clue about how this audio stuff works after reading this datasheet06:11
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calcwhee i understand this stuff now07:13
calcnow the question is whether i can figure out what is wrong with the patch so i can fix it07:13
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pygimorning folks08:59
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=== popey hugs everyone
FujitsuHi popey.09:51
FujitsuWhy do we deserve such hugs?09:51
Hobbseehello popey 09:52
pygiHobbsee, !!! :)09:55
Hobbseehi pygi :)09:55
pygiHobbsee, just looking over some other stuff ... mhm, most of the bugs are either fixable in 5 minutes, or closable already09:58
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Hobbseepygi: yay :)09:58
pygiHobbsee, but nobody is working on those :(09:58
Hobbseepygi: yell if/when you need a sponsor09:59
pygilooking at this right now: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus-cd-burner/09:59
Hobbseeare they coding bugs, or packaging bugs?09:59
pygiHobbsee, wanna work on that one? I have two hours, we might solve n-c-b as well today10:00
pygi(and yes, I know it's sunday :P)10:00
=== Hobbsee needs to study and such, and if i start bug fixing, i sure as heck wont do the study.
Hobbseemind you...reading this blog i wont either...10:01
Hobbseepygi: yeah, why not.  at least a bit.10:02
pygiHobbsee, k, blue ones and grey ones are yours10:02
Hobbseeof n-c-b?10:02
=== Hobbsee doesnt know n-c-b at all
Hobbseeand it was the colourless ones that were mine, yesterday10:03
pygiHobbsee, yea, but grey is a color =)10:03
Hobbseeindeed :P10:03
pygisee? I learn :p10:03
pygiHobbsee, we'll take some package of your choice after exams then :)10:03
pygiwe could fix-up amarok or something ^_^10:03
pygibtw. blue are mostly trivial, it's a wishlist10:04
=== Hobbsee marks a dupe
pygiif there are some things we can easily implement, do poke about the bug number, and I'll see what can we do10:05
=== Hobbsee kills a couple more
pygiHobbsee, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus-cd-burner/+bug/4912710:15
ubotuLaunchpad bug 49127 in nautilus-cd-burner "Long file names are truncated without warning" [Low,Confirmed]  10:15
pygiinteresting bug ^_^10:15
Hobbseepygi: indeed10:16
pygiHobbsee, good that I know about that standard ^_^10:17
pygifinally something useful out of it :p10:17
Hobbseepygi: did you need to do an upload of k3b from yesterday?  I found another patch10:23
pygiHobbsee, patch for what? Point me ?10:23
Hobbseepygi: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/k3b/+bug/10996810:23
ubotuLaunchpad bug 109968 in k3b "K3b shows an inexact information if MP3 plugin not installed" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  10:23
pygiwhy didn't we saw that before?10:23
Hobbseepygi: because i rejected it, adn didnt see the patch.  *shrugs*10:24
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pygiHobbsee, ah, we've got similar bug which is assigned on me10:24
pygigimme a sec10:24
Hobbseepygi: yeah, thoguht so.10:24
pygiHobbsee, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/+source/k3b/+bug/12187710:25
=== Hobbsee downloads k3b source to throw at a feisty pbuilder, to see if it builds.
ubotuLaunchpad bug 121877 in k3b "K3b doesnt prompt the user to install kubuntu-restricted-extras for codecs" [High,Confirmed]  10:25
Hobbseepygi: true that.  want me to mark as a dupe?10:25
pygiHobbsee, yup10:25
pygiHobbsee, and AFAIK that patch is useless for us10:26
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pygiHobbsee, I'm done with mine n-c-b bugs10:27
Hobbseepygi: i was done a while ago - based on the fact that i don trun the software, so could only do packaging bugs10:27
pygiHobbsee, hehe, oki :)10:27
Hobbseesarah@liquified:~/current/k3b-1.0.1$ pl-feisty10:27
pygiit should afaik build10:28
pygiand I *want* it in feisty-updates :(10:28
Hobbseeis it a SRU candidate?10:28
pygino idea :p10:28
pygibut if not, it should be10:28
pygiit fixes some important bugs10:28
Hobbseeif it's a new upstream version, then no, it isnt.  you'd have to cherry pick10:28
Hobbseeor at least, tha'ts hte usual case10:28
Hobbsee(see dapper xorg breakage for the reson why)10:29
ubotuStable Release Update information is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates for main and restricted, while https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/SRU is for universe and multiverse.10:29
pygimeh :P10:29
pygiI know what a SRU is, thank you :)10:29
Hobbseeway cool.  another LP bug.10:29
Hobbseethis newest rollout has had a whole lot of new bugs.  brilliant.10:29
pygihehe :)10:29
pygiHobbsee, I've suggested workarounds on number of n-c-b bugs10:30
Hobbseepygi: workarounds or fixes?10:30
pygilet's hope they work. If they do, we can just package it with the workaround probably10:30
Hobbseejdong: recurring ping10:30
pygiHobbsee, workarounds, by using cdrskin instead of wodim10:30
Hobbseepygi: ah right10:30
pyginot sure if it'll work, but worth to try10:30
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pygiHobbsee, wake up =)10:32
pygijdong, wake up :P10:32
pygibrasero and k3b backports awaiting you :)10:32
pygiHobbsee, sorry ^^10:32
Hobbseeno problem10:32
pygitalking too much with you lately is bad :P10:33
=== Hobbsee is evil, like that
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Hobbseei wish this exam tomorrow was actually on something interesting.10:34
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pygiHobbsee, what is it?10:36
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Hobbseepygi: it's electronics10:36
Hobbseepygi: unfortunately, i had only very small amounts of interest in it when i *started* the subject this semester.10:37
pygio yes, you told me about that10:37
Hobbseethen i just didnt understand it, went to spain, got so far behind, etc, that i definetly lost all interest in it.10:37
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pygihehe :)10:38
pygimeh, LP interface is messy :(10:38
pygino idea how to add upstream tracking10:38
pygio well10:38
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Hobbseepygi: the "upstream" section10:39
Hobbseewhich bug?10:39
realisthttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus-cd-burner/+bug/49127 - could that be filesystem related?10:39
ubotuLaunchpad bug 49127 in nautilus-cd-burner "Long file names are truncated without warning" [Low,Confirmed]  10:39
pygirealist, afaik it's mkisofs related =)10:40
Hobbseepygi: you want Also affects:  +   Upstream10:40
pygiHobbsee, I can't find neither kde or gnome on the list of upstream projects10:40
Hobbseepygi: gnome should be there10:40
pygiHobbsee, I got that, but still :p10:40
Hobbseewhich bug?10:40
Hobbseeoh, the project is n-c-b10:40
pyginah, it's brasero now10:41
pygibut still can't find anything useful10:41
Hobbseedoes lp.net/brasero exist?10:41
ubotuLaunchpad bug 120322 in brasero "Add functionality to make multiple copies of a disk" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  10:41
pygineeds watch on:10:41
ubotuGnome bug 447399 in general "Add functionality to make multiple copies of a disk" [Enhancement,Resolved: duplicate]  10:41
Hobbseepygi: instead of what's there already?10:41
pygiHobbsee, yup, instead of the old upstream bug watch10:42
Hobbseepygi: right.  click on the old bug watch, change it to GNOME Bug tracker, and add the new number10:42
Hobbseeit's there - scroll down a bit10:42
pygiHobbsee, and yay for us, so much k3b bugs closed10:43
pygiyay, I fixed the upstream tracker!!!10:44
pygirealist, why do you think it's a FS problem?10:46
pygiwell, truncating does need to happen indeed, but the bug has two problems:10:46
pygia)mkisofs should have more intelligent truncating algorithms10:46
pygib)n-c-b should provide a way for renaming10:46
pygithe ISO9660 does indeed impose length limit which can be extended with joliet/rockridge, but still .... 10:47
realistI was just assuming that certain filesystems would have a limit on path/filename lengths10:47
pygitwo above problems still stand :)10:47
pygiread what I just said ^_^10:47
Hobbseerealist: so fix those filesystems :P10:47
realistHobbsee: I'd rather not :-)10:48
=== pygi eats Hobbsee
pygibe good Hobbsee :P10:48
mhbHobbsee: are you sure about bug 121877 ?10:48
ubotuLaunchpad bug 121877 in k3b "K3b doesnt prompt the user to install kubuntu-restricted-extras for codecs" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/12187710:48
realistpygi: so basically, the bug relates to handling potential truncation, before it actually happens, and giving sane options/alternatives?10:48
=== pygi looks
pygirealist, I've explained the problem a bit in my latest comment, but mostly ... yes10:49
=== Hobbsee sends pygi to her workplace, and makes him work all her shifts
mhbHobbsee: what I think is that the user should not *get* any unsupported software he does not request.10:49
Hobbseemhb: what about it?10:49
pygiHobbsee, will do :)10:49
realistReading the bug comments now.10:50
mhbHobbsee: and k-r-e is not just k3b encoding/decoding, right?10:50
Hobbseegood pygi.  you'll save me from killing the stupid people10:50
Hobbseemhb: this is correct.10:50
Hobbseemhb: i'm going off the easy-codec-installation and common-customisations spec10:50
Hobbseepygi: maybe a thing to say "this will install the most commonly used stuff, if you wish to only install components, please install x,y,z manually"10:51
pygiHobbsee, meh, useless10:51
pygiIMHO ofcourse10:51
Hobbseepygi: well, yeah.  but it is possible that they may only want certain codecs.10:51
Hobbseei'd have to check the two specs for it10:52
pygiHobbsee, do check, and report to me :)10:52
Hobbseeas i never saw what the outcome was fro gnome10:52
pygiTell me what "manual stuff" we want mentioned there then10:52
Hobbseeliblame0 and libk3b-mp3*whateveritis, iirc10:53
pygiHobbsee, just mention it there pls :P10:53
pygiI can''t track everything in my head =10:53
Hobbseewhy not?10:54
=== Hobbsee should actually read the tribe 1 feedback, etc, on teh mailing list, before startign tribe 2 testing, i guess...
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mhbHobbsee: to be honest, I don't believe in pop-ups at first-startup-time10:55
Hobbseemhb: was that what the spec specified?10:55
pygimhb, this isn't popup at first-startup-time ?10:55
Hobbseemhb: i would assume it's for the first time a codec-required app is started.10:55
pygiit's just a change in the dialog that k3b regulary shows10:55
mhbpygi: at first-startup-time10:55
pygiok, I don't get you :P10:56
pygiwe aren't introducing any new dialogs at startup time :)10:56
pygi(when it's first ran :P)10:56
mhbHobbsee: I might be wrong, but Ubuntu apps I ran offered to install the codecs only if I played any non-free media10:56
pygiok, now I'm seriously confused10:56
pygisomeone fill me in on what we're talking about10:57
Hobbseemhb: this isnt the restricted manager here10:57
mhbno, it isn't10:57
mhbHobbsee: restricted-manager is also something completely different10:57
mhbHobbsee: why aren't we discussing this in #kubuntu-devel?10:58
realistWhat's the best way of approaching upstream authors, about providing bug/security patches that you've written?10:58
realistJust a straight-forward email, with the patch?10:58
pygirealist, mailing them politely with a patch, with GPG encrypted message? :)10:59
pygiif it's a security patch ^_^10:59
Hobbseemhb: because pygi is here, and we've had various burning related discussions here in the past few days.10:59
realistencrypted? is signing enough?10:59
Hobbseemhb: and it's quiet10:59
pygiHobbsee, I'm there as well if you really want to do it in #k-d10:59
Hobbseerealist: usually.  i dont bother encrypting, for the most part10:59
Hobbseepygi: makes no difference to me.  go for it10:59
pygiHobbsee, same to me :P11:00
pygieveryone is quiet anyway =)11:00
realistOkay, so just say, upstream author rejects patch, is it still okay to apply our own patches for ubuntu packages?11:00
realistOr is it preferred for package to be inline with upstream source?11:01
pygirealist, it is ok to apply own patches, depending on the patch11:01
ajmitch~/win 2811:01
pygiajmitch, ? ^_^11:01
=== pygi is confused :P
ajmitchthat's ok11:02
realistSo I guess it's our job to make sure that our patch doesn't conflict with any changes subsequently made to upstream sources?11:02
pygirealist, we can just drop the patch later on11:02
realistOkay, next silly question. It's okay to be both debian _and_ ubuntu developer?11:05
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realistGood, because I was having a difficult time deciding where to direct my efforts :-)11:07
pygihehe :)11:07
realistNow, if only I can pick up an orphaned package that exists in _both_ distros11:07
realistIs there an easy way to find such packages in ubuntu?11:07
realisti.e. no maintainer?11:08
pygirealist, in ubuntu we don't have maintainers11:08
Hobbseealthough there are plenty of packages which arent being kept up to date in ubuntu11:09
pygior properly maintained (i.e. no patching to make sure everything works, and stuff)11:09
realistpygi: that's a concept I can't understand11:09
pygirealist, there's MOTU which maintain universe and multiverse packages, and core devs which maintain Main and Restricted11:10
realistSo the MOTU don't look after _specific_ packages?11:10
realistThey just contribute where ever, and when ever they want?11:11
pyginot exactly like that, but ...11:11
pygithere's ofcourse coordination, talks, decisions, arguments, and stuff11:11
Hobbseerealist: basically11:11
Hobbseerealist: often people work in teams - or have sets of packages taht they touch11:11
realistChaos theory!11:11
Hobbseerealist: but anyone can touch anything, yes11:11
Hobbseerealist: not really.  it works reasonably well.11:12
realistI can see how that'd work actually11:12
realistSo people just start these 'teams' on launchpad?11:12
Hobbseerealist: i mean, there's social protocol that says "if a person has done the last few uploads of this, i should ask them first before i touch it"11:12
Hobbseerealist: a lot goes on in #ubuntu-motu, via email, whatever11:12
realistAnd focus on certain sets of bugs/requests, etc?11:12
Hobbseewell, for kde, for eg, we tend to have a group of people who works with debian kde extra team, who keeps control of all the kde packages in ubuntu11:13
realistHobbsee: but it's not written in stone11:13
Hobbseerealist: not currently11:13
realistThis will take me some getting used to :-)11:13
Hobbseerealist: i mean, people go inactive11:13
Hobbseeand if there's no response, then feel free to go and change it11:14
realistIs there official protocol for those cases?11:14
realistLike, no response within X days/weeks, etc?11:14
pygirealist, not really11:14
Hobbseeand most people will say "feel free to patch this", or in some cases "dont bother to merge this, i've looked at it already, and it's broken"11:14
pygiwe just know when and how to handle it11:14
realistJust wondering where the ownership, or accountability is11:14
Hobbseerealist: nope.  it's really just a free-for-all.11:14
Hobbseerealist: the MOTU team takes responsibility of them, really.11:15
realistPerhaps I've been in a commercial environment too long already ;p11:15
Hobbseerealist: it's not main, whihc is commercially supported11:15
realistThis "free-for-all" I could get used to11:15
pygiHobbsee, it mostly works really good11:15
StevenKrealist: Loosely organised choas. It's fun.11:15
Hobbseerealist: but even that - there are teams of people who do variosu bits11:15
realistMore eyes and hands on the code, has to be a "good thing" right?11:15
realistSo how are arguments/debates resolved?11:16
ion_With guns.11:16
Hobbseeion_: *grin*11:16
Fujitsuion_ is correct.11:16
=== realist laughs
Hobbseerealist: cant say there have been many, actually.  very few.11:16
Hobbseerealist: ther'es one on what to do about clamav stuff11:16
FujitsuThere are too few of us to have debates.11:16
realistWhat if someone disagrees with changes I've made?11:16
Hobbseerealist: but the people get on reasonably well - you've seen the COC, i presume, which everyone is under?11:17
Hobbseerealist: then they'll politely tell you, usually with reasons about why it's incorrect11:17
realistI've already _signed_ the CoC11:17
realistIs there avenues for arbitration?11:17
pygirealist, everything can be agreed on, and there are policies on sane and insane stuff :p11:17
Hobbseerealist: right.  i was merely pointing to it, and saying taht that stops a lot of flames, etc11:17
pygimostly unwritten, but they do exist11:17
Hobbseerealist: motu mailing list is a good start - if it really escalates, there's the community council or tech board.  11:17
realistMmmm it's the "unwritten laws" I'm uncomfortable with11:17
realistHobbsee: that sounds sensible11:18
Hobbsee(which is written, in the procedures of ubuntu)11:18
realistI should probably get on that mailing list11:18
realistAny others I should be interested in?11:18
Hobbseeubuntu-devel, maybe ubuntu-devel-discuss too11:18
Hobbseeubuntu-devel-announce and ubuntu-announce are low traffic, and are useful11:19
realistI'm already on security-announce, is there a place for security related discussion?11:19
Hobbseerealist: ask keescook 11:19
Hobbseewhen he's here11:19
realistI'm actually more interested in security related fixes, than anything else11:19
pygirealist, nice :)11:20
Hobbseerealist: he's the security guy.  i beleive there is stuff, but i dont remember exactly what, offhand11:20
Hobbseerealist: have you come from debian, or what?11:20
realistI vaguely remember a security-discuss, but I think it's dead11:20
realistI've been using debian for, umm 10+ years11:20
Hobbseei meant a developer of it11:20
realistBut never an 'official developer'11:20
realistIt's about time I started giving back11:21
Hobbseerealist: you'll find there's a collaborative attitude here, rather than an "it's my package, and if you touch it, then i'm going to come and hunt you down", as is often (it seems, from an outsiders POV) the case in debian.11:21
realistAlso a fan of OpenBSD11:21
realistHobbsee: there's just more organisational structure in debian, relating to single packages11:22
Hobbseerealist: indeed.11:22
realistAlthough, nothing stopping anyone else from contributing code to that particular developer11:22
Hobbseerealist: which is why i've never gotten involved particularly much in debian.11:22
Hobbseetrue - they just can reject it, and be a right pain11:22
realistHaving said that though, I could see the benifit in a 'free-for-all' approach11:23
realistHobbsee: indeed11:23
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Hobbseehiya mvo 11:23
realistAlthough, if your suggestion/contribution is good enough, they could accept it11:23
mvohey Hobbsee11:23
realistSo, in order to upload, you need to be either MOTU, or core dev?11:24
Hobbseerealist: this is true.  i've submitted a couple of packages back to debian.11:24
realistBut for now, what can I do to contribute?11:24
Hobbseerealist: technically, yes.  there are sponsorship processes, though11:24
realistSubmit packaged work to existing MOTU?11:24
Hobbseerealist: check https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU11:24
Hobbseehmmm.  persia's guide isnt in there yet, for sponsorship11:25
realistHobbsee: a more useful link, would be a list of willing mentors/sponsors :-)11:25
Hobbseerealist: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Sponsorship/SponsorsQueue is the info about the sponsorship queue11:25
realistThanks :-)11:26
Hobbseerealist: this is true - but there arent a lot of mentors around.  and the current lot of mentorees seem to go "i want a mentor, to tell me what to do, in everything"11:26
pygirealist, if you need anything, just ask11:26
Hobbseewhich is...less than useful.  you'll do better if you've already got something that you'd like to work on - either a package or an area11:26
pygiwe're always willing to help :)11:26
realistI guess it's time for me to debootstrap a chroot dev environment now :-)11:28
realistGet some actual _work_ done11:28
pygirealist, pbuilder might work good as well =)11:28
Hobbseerealist: or use a pbuilder11:29
Hobbseerealist: dual booting, etc, is often a good way to test11:29
=== Hobbsee uploads exaile from that queue
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mhbhi mvo 11:33
mvohey mhb, thanks for your mail11:34
Hobbseemhb: pygi mvo can probably provide input about the restricted stuff - or maybe not during a sunday11:34
pygiHobbsee, let's not do it today, and let's keep it simple :)11:35
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mhbmvo: check the code once you have time. If you could manage to look at it so we could upload a package in time for Tribe 2, that would be awesome.11:36
Hobbseedepends what mvo wants.11:36
Hobbseeif he can keep his connectoin for long enough11:36
ajmitchhey mvo/mvo_ :)11:37
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Hobbseecase in point.11:38
mvo__mhb: I will answer to your mail, network is way too unstable again here (but I was promised that it get fixed on monday, yay!)11:39
ajmitchHobbsee: maybe he's just having a multiple personality day?11:39
Hobbseemvo__: hooray!11:39
Hobbseeajmitch: heh, perhaps.  but this happens most days :P11:39
Hobbseepoor mvo11:41
=== Fujitsu loves his reliable cable.
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=== TheMuso pats his reliable ADSL.
mhbmvo: uh oh, that sounds like you hated the code :o)11:44
HobbseeTheMuso: you really do love the "c" key, dont you...11:45
TheMusoHobbsee: You know what the reason is for that.11:46
TheMusoI nedant mention it again.11:46
HobbseeTheMuso: i used to.  unfortunately, exams have killed my brain or something.11:47
Hobbseei've forgotten :(11:47
TheMusoHobbsee: Speakup + kvm11:47
HobbseeTheMuso: ahhh.  right11:47
HobbseeTheMuso: i figured it was likely something to do with speakup11:48
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realistwhat's "speakup"?11:52
realistOh cool :-)11:52
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TheMusorealist: At this point of time, I would call it a piece of crap code that does its best to screw your system if its loaded.11:59
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Enola_Gayhi all12:04
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Enola_GayI think that support is very important for Linux/Ubuntu. Since many people are behind routers/firewalls it isn't so easy to help them with vnc. People who need support doesn't often know how to open ports. Another group are people behind a firewall which can't be changed by them. For all them it would be great to have GUI for connection to listen vnc. People who give support know how to forward ports so it makes much more 12:09
Enola_Gaysense to let supported connect to vnc listen clients. This also makes things more secure since they don't need to open ports. Should I make a feature request or are there several reasons why this isn't already implemented?12:09
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Enola_GayAnd please don't forget to fix the vnc compiz bug until Gutsy release. Otherwise vnc support isn't possible anymore.12:12
HobbseeEnola_Gay: --> ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list, please12:23
ubotuIt's a weekend.  Often on weekends, the paid developers, and a lot of the community, may not be around to answer your question.  Please be patient, wait longer than you normally would, or try again during the working week.12:23
Hobbseeno problem12:23
=== realist pats ubotu
Enola_GayI post it to launchpad so if someone is interested ...12:24
realistEnola_Gay: To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what you're proposing.12:25
Enola_Gayrealist: Atm it is only possible to connect to someones computer to help him with vnc12:25
Enola_GaySo there have to be a port forwarded12:25
Enola_GayBut vnc has an option listen so the clients wait for connections and the remote desktop connects to the client12:25
realistAhhh I see.12:26
Enola_GaySo everyone who needs support behind a firewall doesn't need to forward anything just insert the ip and connect to the support who of course is able to forward ports.12:26
Enola_GayMuch more easier.12:26
Enola_GayBut without a gui it isn't so easy.12:26
realistMight actually be easier for someone providing the support, to instruct someone to use the CLI, than a GUI12:28
realistI know this is the case for me, since I can remember CLI better, as opposed to GUI navigation12:29
realistYou could even post the CLI instructions, where the support client could copy/paste12:30
realistThat'd be my workaround, but your suggestion is still a good one, so definately post to the mailing list12:30
Enola_Gaythis is true but many people who needs support doesn't like the console :)12:31
Enola_GayDo you know svnc? This is a great program for windows. It consists a little vnc server and all information needed to connect to the supporter. So if someone needs support you send him this file and he needs nothing more than just start it. It even supports encryption.12:34
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Enola_GayAnd it is open source :)12:42
Enola_GayOk, I have made the feature request. By the way the program is called scvnc. Thanks for your support. Cu12:45
popeythey dont need to use the console, you can do ALT+F2 and type the command in the box12:45
Enola_Gaypopey: :)12:45
Enola_GayBut I have to send them per Mail. Most of the old ones don't use im12:46
Enola_GayAnd it would be very hard through a telephone12:46
Enola_GayThis is needed to convince them from Linux imho since they need much support at first. The great thing is that they didn't play 3D games and most of the time only surf, write or print something but if they have i.e. a Canon printer it would be a problem too.12:49
Enola_GayBtw does anyone know if Java would be OpenSOurce in Gutsy and main?12:54
pygiEnola_Gay, no12:55
Enola_GayBecause it isn't ready?12:55
pygiit isn't open source12:56
pyginot completely12:56
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StevenKpitti: Hi!01:37
pittiHi StevenK 01:38
StevenKpitti: Is archive-cruft-checker still busted?01:44
pittiStevenK: yes, I doubt that someone fixed it over the weekend01:44
=== StevenK nods.
StevenKIt's becoming a little hard to juggle state about it in my head.01:45
tsmitheare there any archive admins able to look at http://revu.tauware.de/revu1-incoming/ubuntustudio-sounds-0706231730/ubuntustudio-sounds-0.5/debian/copyright (the debian/copyright file for ubuntustudio-sounds), and tell me if it is acceptable?01:45
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Hobbseehi pitti!01:49
pygipitti, hey ho01:51
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pittiStevenK: are you interested in a particular package? I can generate the rdepends per-package manually02:06
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pittiStevenK: bah, I just regenerate them all02:07
Hobbseepitti: he's watchign tv02:07
pittiStevenK: all updated02:13
pittisiretart, gpocentek: can I poke you again about the ffmpeg / libgoffice transition?02:13
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StevenKpitti: Thanks!02:16
pittiStevenK: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/scripts/checkrdepends, BTW02:16
pittiStevenK: that's the scripts which generates the output per package (source, or binary with -b)02:17
=== StevenK nods.
StevenKpitti: I'm a bit loath to just blindly rebuild the packages for ppc and ia64 for jasper without checking, but I am without ppc and ia64.02:18
pittiStevenK: no big problem; at worst it doesn't work and we need to build them again; no big deal02:18
StevenKpitti: Well, I'm happy to do so if you like.02:19
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pittiStevenK: great, thank you02:19
StevenKUgh. Some of the sources are huge.02:24
StevenKpitti: Your script seems to write out empty files, too.02:25
StevenKpitti: libtotem-plparser1 is zero size02:25
pittiStevenK: yeah, I didn't remove packages without rdepends02:25
StevenKchecking whether system headers can cope with -O2 -fno-inline... irrelevant02:27
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davmor2Hi Devs  Ubiquity and deb-installer are both failing on iso's for the 24/06/07.  Ubiquity gets a bugreport but it is empty.  deb-installer fails on debchroot ?  I think it is called.03:53
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Hobbseedavmor2: ok.  not sure if the candidate cds are being spun and such yet - main's not frozen yet03:55
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davmor2I know but it definitely is something that needs to be worked on.  That's my reason for highlighting it.03:57
Hobbseethanks :)03:59
davmor2well what else is the isotesting team here for ;)04:00
Hobbseedavmor2: i doubt all the stuff is in, if main's not frozen - which is when the real tribe 2 candidates testing will start.  so hang around for a couple of days, and please test again :)04:00
Hobbseemain freezes on tuesday, then they'll spin iso's and whatnot from there04:00
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davmor2Hobbsee:  Yes my main testing is on tuesday evening/ Wednesday.  but I was having bother with updating nm-applet and it not working well with gnome-keyring-manager.  So I was hoping that an update cd would solve the issue.  It's works fine on live I just can't install :(04:05
davmor2but it has at least highlighted the issue with the installer04:06
davmor2bye for now04:07
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affluxTheMuso: Hobbsee sent me to you because of bug 121937. Someone requests a way to let blind people decide in what language the live-cd should boot up.04:30
ubotuLaunchpad bug 121937 in Ubuntu "live-cd should ask for the language country (and maybe keyboard)" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/12193704:30
Hobbseeafflux: he's asleep04:31
affluxI tend to forget that it's 16 o'clock only in central europe ;)04:31
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pygiogra, ! :)04:41
pygiafflux, 4:40 to be precise =)04:41
ogra42 here :P04:41
pygiok, ok, germany is always special :p04:41
affluxnow 42 in germany :D04:42
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afflux(it's the answer!)04:42
pygihow are you doing?04:42
ograplaying with hal ...04:42
pygiuh, that must be interesting04:42
pygiit always is :)04:42
ion_17:41:36 < pygi> afflux, 4:40 to be precise =)  17:41:44 < ogra> 42 here :P04:43
pygiion_, but, but ...04:43
pygiyou're *wrong*04:43
ion_My ntpd should be working, unless it has became b0rked.04:43
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sim2who knows why /var/run and /var/lock are excempted from umounting in /etc/init.d/umountfs05:12
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ion_They are mounted as tmpfs.05:14
sim2no they are specifically filtered based on their name05:14
sim2but why, it keeps my /var mounted during shutdown05:17
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Kmoskeescook: are you there?05:58
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silvertip257good day everyone08:43
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silvertip257I doubt I'm in the right place, but I'd like to learn how to put together a live cd08:43
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mc44silvertip257: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization ?08:46
silvertip257mc44:  I tried that, but to no avail ... i'm lookin into making one from the foundation up08:46
pygisilvertip257, try reconstructor08:47
silvertip257hmm ok pygi08:47
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silvertip257thank you ... I will check that out .. bye08:48
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imachinewould this be the place devs sit about ?09:42
pygiimachine, what ya need?09:43
imachinepygi: dude, I need to know what patches apply against vanilla on ubuntu kernel09:43
imachinetalking about standard normal amd64 kernel that gets installed, 7.0409:43
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pygiyou could apt-get source the kernel package, and get the source09:44
imachineI'd like to use them maybe on the distro I use currently, but I don't know what they are. I need I guess acpi-asus patches.09:44
imachineyeah, but I use archlinux ;)09:44
imachineso no apt-get about ;] 09:44
imachinepygi: wouldn't that provide me with the ready sources anyway, and not vanilla + patches lying about in some patches/ dir ?09:44
pygiubuntu holds it's own kernel tree09:45
imachinecuz I could always download them just from some ubuntu mirror manually, whatever files apt-get source would provide me with.09:45
pygiI'm really not the right kernel person you should talk to :)09:45
imachinewell, don't you guys patch the vanilla stuff? I think you have to one way or the other no ?09:45
crimsunof course.  Its public via kernel.ubuntu.com/git/09:46
pygiofcourse that patching happens09:46
crimsunIt's, even.09:46
pygibut don't ask me :P09:46
pygithere, crimsun :)09:46
imachinewell. ultimately, I'd just like a directory I could get to ? and see stuff in there?09:47
imachineuh I'm feeling dumbified, if that's even a word.09:47
imachinethis whole ubuntu business, sorry guys I mean no offence, but it's on f..... mess for me.09:47
imachineI could never dev for you ;P09:47
imachinerespect for finding your way about.09:47
bhaleit isnt so hard if you have the tools and the will to learn them09:48
imachinewell it's not hard. it just seems overly complicated for no reason.09:49
crimsunyou need the git-core package or its equivalent on arch09:49
imachinefeels like you guys have levels of awareness ;)09:49
crimsunthen just clone the appropriate tree09:49
imachinecrimsun: well I guess I can use git yeah09:49
imachinecrimsun: and what will git pull in? will it pull in what I want, that is, vanilla + patches aside ?09:50
imachineI'm used to a PKGBUILD + patches and stuff in the PKGBUILD mentioning them.09:50
crimsunI recommend you read the documentation on using git.09:50
imachinebsd style Makefile. emerge files.09:50
imachinewhatever like that.09:50
crimsuncloning a git tree pulls the entire tree09:50
imachineyeah that's okay. just what will I get there.09:51
imachinei.e. , what does your git tree contain.09:51
crimsunthe entire Linux tree09:51
imachinedoes it contain what I need, that is, vanilla + patches ?09:51
crimsunare you even looking at kernel.ubuntu.com/git/ ?09:51
imachinedo you even have patches aside ?09:51
imachineor you just dev and submit.09:51
crimsunpatches are in git changesets.  There is no separate patch repository.09:51
crimsunSeriously, read the git documentation.09:51
imachinewell you don't understand what I'm saying I guess. because I understand patches to git, and to certain next/before versions of the tree. that's one thing.09:52
imachinebut what I'm talking about is Ubuntu patches to the vanilla kernel.09:52
imachinethat's what I ultimately need.09:52
imachinei just need the ubuntu patches, nothing more. the stuff that makes ubuntu kernel an ubuntu kernel.09:53
imachinelike I said somewhere else, I *could* just get your kernel through git like you said, and diff the files I want against a clean vanilla kernel09:53
imachinethat way I'd get patches.09:53
crimsunthen execute a recursive unified diff over the source and the origin.09:53
imachinebut that's overhead I think.09:53
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imachineyeah, so no other way then I reckon ?09:53
superm1crimsun, do you have a copy of that script that you use for collecting alsa related info?  I have a friend who is having troubles with gutsy and alsa, so I was going to have him run that and file a bug09:54
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imachinecrimsun: have you got no build files? or would those build files use the already patched kernel sources.09:54
crimsunsuperm1: linked from my LP profile.09:55
superm1thx crimsun 09:55
crimsunimachine: "build files"?09:56
imachineI mean, how do you build your packages?09:56
crimsunsee debian/rules09:56
imachinenot interested.09:56
crimsunum, you asked how they're built, and that's what you would need to see...09:56
imachinea build file is a file which contains information as to how a package is supposed to be built.09:57
crimsunthat's precisely debian/rules09:57
imachinewell, that was sort of a rhethorical question I guess.09:57
imachineI see, I thought that was some disclaimer ;)09:57
imachinecrimsun: so normally, I'd expect a line somewhere in this rules file that orders the build process to patch. since it would normally fetch vanilla sources, and patch them locally. that's how I'm used to doing stuff at least.09:59
imachinebut in your case I take it sources are fetched already patched, even worse, there's a source package for that matter which includes the rules.10:00
crimsunimachine: the entire git tree is, using standard terminology, "patched"10:00
imachinethis is like those dogs with fur over their eyes, you can't say whether they're barking with their arse. at least for me that's how I see it ;)10:00
superm1crimsun, are there any known bugs in that script?  It is hanging for both my friend and I when trying to run it following the directions listed on linux-sound.info10:00
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crimsunsuperm1: how is it being invoked?10:00
superm1bash alsa-info.sh10:00
imachinecrimsun: where could I see those patches? or do you just dev this stuff in such a fasion, that there simply isn't some general place one could get patches ?10:01
crimsunsuperm1: pastebin.ca may have high latency depending on his source10:01
imachineyeah I guess I'll just git your tree10:01
imachineand diff locally.10:01
crimsunsuperm1: have him use --no-upload and --debug, then pastebin the file generated in /tmp10:01
imachinethis is more work than I thought.10:01
crimsunimachine: it's precisely how all git trees that clone from Linus operate10:01
crimsunsee www.kernel.org/git/10:01
pygiimachine, just because ubuntu != arch doesn't mean that it's bad10:01
imachinepygi: I never said that.10:02
pyginot directly10:02
imachinearch is what I like not because it's called 'arch' but because it keeps to the KISS way.10:02
crimsunwhatever floats your boat.10:02
imachineas, in the end, your ways of doing things is probably not far different in consequences, it's mostly a matter of preference.10:02
imachineif you can get the same end funcionality, more-less, with a more simplistic apporach however, in my opinion that's better. hence I use arch. and not only because of that, actually I never knew how your development goes on until today ;)10:03
imachineso yeah, use whatever you like.10:03
imachineanyway I have to look through the files. I think it shouldn't be a lot of work anyway ;)10:03
imachinecrimsun: thanks for the info so far lad.10:04
pygiimachine, let's not discuss arch and it's development :)10:04
pygiI know much more about it then you think ^^_10:04
imachinepygi: you're right, let's not.10:05
imachinealso, I didn't mention how things are done basing on human factor, rather than on how the ways things could be done on it.10:05
imachineI'm sure there is plenty of rreasons to not choose arch or whatever other distro. But luckily for that, there is other possibilities.10:06
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imachineok, tas lads. that's helpful info. have a good one I might drop by sometime if noone minds ;] 10:09
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draikTo everyone who worked on Feisty...10:32
draikTHANK YOU!10:32
draikMy laptop works much cleaner and smoother than with Edgy. No complaints about Edgy, mind you. I'm just saying Edgy was great, but Feisty is Excellent!10:32
draikThank you all10:32
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alex_mayorg1Hello all, any dev can have a look at bug# 12111110:44
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ScottKalex_mayorga: There aren't likely to be many around on a Sunday afternoon/evening.10:46
ScottKBug #12111110:46
ubotuLaunchpad bug 121111 in linux-source-2.6.22 "Gutsy Tribe 1 CD don't load on Dell Inspiron 1501" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/12111110:46
alex_mayorgaScottK, fair enough10:46
alex_mayorgaI do most of my Ubunting on the weekends though10:47
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ScottKalex_mayorga: There is also a separate #ubuntu-kernel channel that might work better for you (at a better time).10:47
alex_mayorgaScottK, I'll give it a try, thanks10:50
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alex_mayorgaIs there a plan to do an Ubuntu like http://www.puppyos.com/flash-puppy.htm10:54
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Toxicity999alex_mayorga That's sort of a novelty project, I've seen individuals do it with great success though.11:15
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superm1alex_mayorga, an ordinary ubuntu install can be installed onto a flash drive or usb hard drive and bootable11:33
superm1the only problem is that different systems will refer to it is hd0 or hd1 or hd2 depending on what other things are plugged in11:34
Mithrandirit'll usually be hd0 if you boot off it.11:34
superm1and depending on what the bios is currently set as the primary drive to boot from11:34
superm1Mithrandir, my intel mobo installs grub onto the usb drive thinking its hd1, but really its hd0 unless i change the boot order in the bios11:35
superm1in which case its a bit difficult to boot from :)11:35
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Nafallomy home on lvm are named dm-0 :-P11:44
Nafalloconfusing :-)11:44
Nafallo/dev/dm-0 that is11:45
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DavieyHi, I have a USB module that i'm trying to write drivers for.  It is a hub & two devices.  It seems it's poorly implemented and it has a broken port 3.  Can i stop the kernel trying to enable the port?12:00
Davieygetting repeated; "hub 4-8:1.0: Cannot enable port 3.  Maybe the USB cable is bad?"12:01

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