AndyPsomerville32: persia said it was important to wipe debian/changelog because the upstream one was never released12:16
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joejaxxGood Evening All12:40
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FujitsuMorning everyone.12:57
Nafallomorning Fujitsu 12:58
geserHi Fujitsu12:58
FujitsuHi Nafallo, geser.12:59
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LaserJockmorning Fujitsu 01:11
FujitsuHi LaserJock.01:11
=== Fujitsu wonders when -changes will wake up again.
=== Fujitsu also wonders why everything depending on libgconfmm is now dieing with an undefined symbol error. That's not meant to happen, is i
Fujitsu*is it?01:13
LaserJockhmm, is -changes dead? I hadn't really thought about it01:13
Fujitsu-changes died along with changelog-closes-bugs after the last LP rollout.01:13
LaserJockI'm 100% mutt now so email has been weird01:14
LaserJockI decided I didn't like IMAP01:14
FujitsuLibraries are meant to change their soname when they drop symbols or similar, aren't they?01:15
geserif public symbols are dropped then the so-version should be changed01:17
FujitsuRight. But libgconfmm didn't, so now everything depending on it is dead.01:17
FujitsuWhat is the best thing to do? Bump the so version and rebuild everything, or just rebuild everything?01:19
geserrebuilding would fix it for now but partial upgrades were still broken, so the correct solution would be to bump the so version and rebuild01:22
FujitsuThought so.01:23
FujitsuLaserJock can fix it with his newfound superpowers!01:23
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geserHi persia01:25
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persiaHi geser01:25
FujitsuHi persia.01:25
persiahi Fujitsu01:25
TheMusoHey folks.01:26
FujitsuHi TheMuso.01:27
persiaHi TheMuso01:27
TheMusoHey persia.01:27
TheMusoYou guys may be interested in knowing that I have set up a shared apt cache for all my sbuild instances.01:27
FujitsuHow're you doing it? Bind something over /var/cache/apt/archive?01:28
TheMusoWell its an NFS share, so just mounting it directly as NFS.01:28
TheMusoit seems to be working fine.01:28
TheMusoThis is because I have sbuild set up on three boxes.01:30
TheMusoAnd have a download quota01:30
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minghuaTheMuso: what is the advantage of your solution over apt-proxy?01:33
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TheMusominghua: I don't have to have custom sources.list files for all the sbuild/LVM instances I have.01:35
TheMusoAnd its a lot more trivial to set up IMO.01:35
minghuaTheMuso: good point on custom repos01:35
minghuatriviality depends on what you already have, I suppose01:36
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persiaIf debian/copyright is autogenerated by debian/rules, may it be removed in debian/rules clean:?  I'd think that this would result in no debian/copyright from apt-get source packagename and would therefore be bad, but wanted to check before complaining.02:03
minghuaif there is a debian/copyright.in, I don't see any problem removing debian/copyright in clean02:05
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persiaminghua: For this package, there's a debian/copyright-files/ which contains some portions of the copyright, and a shell script to collect the remainder from various places in the source code.02:07
AndyPthat sounds weird02:15
persiaAndyP: Yep.  That's why I want other opinions :)02:16
=== AndyP tackles another package with an upstream debian directory
persiaWell, I guess I'll go with the principal of minimal changes then (and not accept deletion of debian/copyright as a undocumented change in a debdiff).02:23
=== LaserJock wonders what powers Fujitsu thinks he has
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TheMusocd /usr/include/02:42
TheMusogah wrong terminal02:43
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=== bluefoxicy notices Gutsy uses KVM 16, makes a bug requesting latest version (28 currently) before feature freeze.
persiabluefoxicy: Were the issues reported with 28 mentioned at the bottom of the comment thread for bug 119254 resolved?  While KVM needs work, I'm not sure a sync will be better.03:06
ubotuLaunchpad bug 119254 in kvm "Fails to create KVM context on linux-image-2.6.22-6" [Undecided,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/11925403:06
ScottKFujitsu: changelog-closes-bugs was working again for me ~20 hours ago.03:10
bluefoxicypersia:  what issues?03:11
bluefoxicyblack screen, I'm not sure what guest OS03:11
bluefoxicyI know with KVM24 I loaded operating systems and with 16 I load absolutely nothing03:11
bluefoxicyKVM16 is slower than straight emulation by a billion times ;)03:11
bluefoxicyand hangs barely into run.03:11
bluefoxicyKVM16 reminds me of bochs actually <.<03:12
bluefoxicypersia:  but maybe a direct sync isn't the answer03:12
FujitsuScottK: They broke at the same time, but they're not both fixed.03:15
=== Fujitsu notes that Compiz is doing strange stuff... when I set the number of desktops to 4, I get a plane rather than a cube. Any other value gives an appropriate shape.
ScottKFujitsu: OK.  Just thought I'd mention that one of them was fixed.  I'd rather have had them fix "Triaged" bugs not showing up in standard searches.03:16
StevenKFujitsu: Desktop on a triangle?03:17
StevenK/dev/mapper/system-mirror 60G   60G   40K 100% /srv/mirror03:20
persiabluefoxicy: That's about it: 16 is definitely bad, and 28 (or similar) likely better.  I'm just tempted to mark bug 121940 as invalid, as I'm not sure it will fix the various problems, and based on the KVM changelog, needs coordination with the kernel team.03:20
ubotuLaunchpad bug 121940 in kvm "KVM newest version request" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/12194003:20
StevenKI think the time has come for me to stop mirroring edgy.03:20
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TheMuso1/aw Away03:57
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FujitsuScottK: Yeah, that pretty much makes Triaged useless for now.04:31
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FujitsuStevenK: Or octagonal prism, or whatever.04:31
Fujitsu(my SSH session timed out and I didn't notice, hence the slow responses)04:31
FujitsuHm, why's desktop-effects our problem now?04:37
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ScottKFujitsu: Are you referring to the compiz demotion?04:45
ajmitchFujitsu: because it's redundant04:46
FujitsuScottK: compiz itself seems to remain in main.04:46
ajmitchsee system->preferences->appearance04:46
ScottKOh.  I thought I saw some reference to it being demoted and the new merged bling would be in main.04:47
ajmitchth new merged bling is in main04:47
ajmitchcompiz-compcomm-plugins-main | 0.0.0+git20070612-0ubuntu1 | http://nz.archive.ubuntu.com gutsy/universe Packages04:48
ajmitchthat part is yet to be moved04:48
ajmitchhence the -main suffix :)04:48
Fujitsucompiz-fusion-plugins-* it is now.04:50
ajmitchthe virtual package not provided by anything?04:52
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Fujitsuwilliam@irranat:~/MOTUing$ dpkg -L compiz-fusion-plugins-main | wc -l04:55
FujitsuLooks fairly real to me.04:55
FujitsuCan anyone make sense of bug #120152?04:57
ubotuLaunchpad bug 120152 in archivemail ""Permission Denied" when archiving from /var/mail directory" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/12015204:57
=== ScottK looks
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ScottKFujitsu: Nice how he attaches a new copy of the program as a "patch"04:59
FujitsuThat's what I thought.04:59
FujitsuIt might have been easier to work out what the heck he was talking about if there was a patch/04:59
=== Fujitsu uses Won't Fix for the first time.
ScottKFujitsu: I can guess what he might mean, but that sounds reasonable.05:03
FujitsuWhat's he saying? That the user running archivemail can't read root's mailbox? That sounds like a correct behaviour.05:04
ajmitchNo candidate version found for compiz-fusion-plugins-main05:04
ScottKFujitsu: I think he's saying if a root user runs archivemail it changes the permissions so the regular user can't read it anymore.05:05
StevenKajmitch: How laggy is nz.archive? It's even on my local mirror.05:05
ScottKStevenK: Probably slowed by the snow.05:06
ajmitchStevenK: it's a little odd, since I'm pulling from both nz.a.u.c & a.u.c05:06
=== ajmitch even synced his local mirror yesterday
=== Fujitsu synced his a few hours ago.
FujitsuThat's probably why I've got the new compiz-fusion crack!05:07
ajmitchlucky you!05:07
FujitsuDoes this mean we can kill off beryl soon?05:07
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=== ajmitch is currently waiting for debmirror to finish grabbing source crack
FujitsuOh yay, let's request that a Tcl/Tk application use GNOME file dialogs.05:08
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Burgundaviawe could just kill tcl/tk05:12
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=== ScottK files a bug against LP for Triaged not showing up in standard searches...
FujitsuScottK: Already done.05:25
FujitsuMarked High, not Critical, for some stupid reason.05:25
FujitsuBug #12163605:26
ubotuLaunchpad bug 121636 in malone "when a bug is marked as triaged it disappears" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/12163605:26
ScottKFujitsu: I just hit send.  I'll dupe mine to that one.05:26
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FujitsuIt's quite ironic, considering what Triaged is meant to be used for.05:33
ScottKFujitsu: I suspect it's symptomatic of the FUBAR nature of that entire set of changes.  Whoever designed (I use the word losely) it had one very narrow perspective on the work flow and got very little detailed input.  After all, once a bug is "Triaged" triagers don't need to see it anymore because they are done.05:38
ScottKNot that I'm bitter or anything.05:38
ScottKI guess that should be loosely and not losely...05:39
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BurgundaviaScottK: that person would be Henrik, I think05:46
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ScottKBurgundavia: The impression I had was he heard about it at the last minute, but I don't know, nor do I really care.  It's symptomatic of the problems in close source proprietary development processes.05:48
ScottKWhoever messed up, it isn't really their fault.  It's a fundamental process issue.05:48
BurgundaviaI agree05:48
ScottKYou can't develop something useful to the community in isolation from the community.05:48
Burgundaviaraise it at the next Tech Board05:49
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ScottKBurgundavia: There's really no point.  The will open source LP when/if Canonical wants to.  Ubuntu's use of proprietary tools is a significant negative in my book, but not one (yet) that outweighs Ubuntu's advantages.05:50
BurgundaviaScottK: you can raise the issue of process and suggest some solutions, however05:50
ScottKBurgundavia: The only real solution is to open up LP and they're very clear that's not in the cards.05:51
ScottKAs long as it's developed in a back room we'll just get told to ignore the man behind the curtain.05:52
Burgundaviagiven the operating constraints, you can fix certain things05:52
=== Fujitsu hasn't dared to participate in a discussion like this recently.
ScottKExcept we already have stuff like an official MOTU-LP liaison and he wasn't consulted.05:52
=== ScottK is never reluctant to open his mouth (I know I didn't need to tell you that).
FujitsuI used to not be, then I got a lot of important people annoyed.05:53
=== Fujitsu engraves `WTF' into bug #119469
ubotuLaunchpad bug 119469 in firefox-launchpad-plugin "all of the previous bugs, plus malformed line 40" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/11946905:54
ScottKFujitsu: Just mark it Triaged.  That'll take care of it.05:55
FujitsuYeah, true.05:55
FujitsuAnd why is gutsy-changes still screwed? How'd they manage to break changelog-closes-bugs? {sync,backport}-source? Aren't they meant to have some tests?05:56
ScottKBurgundavia: Given the operating constraints there's very little that can be done to fix things on this side of the interface.  LP is a black box we can't see into.  It's really up to them.  If I thought there was something I could do that would make a difference, I'd be glad to go to the tech board, I just don't see the point.05:56
ScottKFujitsu: Trust them.  They know what they are doing (no need to open source this project yet).05:57
FujitsuScottK: I think this is how a lot of people feel, but you're the only one who is particularly vocal about it at the moment. Good to see somebody has taken on my old task!05:57
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ScottKBurgundavia: Or to put it differently, if someone wants me to invest my time in making a proprietary program better, I have a consulting rate for that.06:07
joejaxxScottK: you do not think of Launchpad as a service?06:12
ScottKjoejaxx: No.  I think of it as a critical part of the toolchain of the Linux distribution I use.06:13
ScottKBuilding free software on a proprietary toolset is not a point of comfort for me.06:17
ScottKIt's why I use DaD instead of MoM for merges even though the later is more mature.06:17
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Burgundaviajoejaxx: I believe LP should be Free. period06:32
ScottKPersonally, I've yet to see any arguments for keeping it proprietary that make sense to me.06:32
BurgundaviaUbuntu is "just a service"06:33
FujitsuI'm sure most here know my opinion on the subject.06:34
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ScottKIn that case, I should just quit working on making their service better.06:35
FlannelScottK: did you see the comment from sabdfl about his reasonings?06:35
FujitsuThe problem is that Ubuntu has benefits that outweigh the downside (ie. non-free infrastructure). It's a really neat trap.06:36
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ScottKFlannel: I've seen comments that are going into the LP FAQ - probably the same.  They don't make sense to me.06:36
ScottK+1 for what Fujitsu said.06:36
FlannelScottK: the ones about anti-balkanization?06:36
nixternalalcohol and hacking do not mix!06:37
ScottKYep.  06:37
ScottKto both of you.06:37
ScottKnixternal: That doesn't help your MOTU application any.06:37
FujitsuScottK: Hahahah.06:37
ubotuOh no!  The pointy-clicky Vista lover has arrived!  He's rumoured to be giving out free money, too!06:37
nixternalwell, where do I begin...Debian packaging talk, GPL talk, Ubuntu talk....and lots of home brewed and micro brewed beer..BarCamp is some good stuff06:38
FlannelScottK: what about the centralization argument doesn't make sense?06:38
ScottKFlannel: If he's worried about lots of things called Launchpad running around, he can stop that with trademark.  I see no difference if an upstream that we link to runs Bugzilla or another isntance of LP.06:38
BurgundaviaFlannel: the argument is bullsh*t06:38
FlannelScottK: He's not worried about thename, he's arguing that if you have LOTS of LPs, you lose the benefit of integration.06:39
FujitsuThe argument is a little valid. They don't want anybody running Bugzilla or their own LP. They want everyone to use *their* LP.06:39
ScottKFlannel: So.  If there is benifit in integration, people will run on Canonical's instance of LP.  If he's wrong, they won't.  No need to make it proprietary if the benifit is real.06:40
nixternalgotta remember, Sourceforge is not proprietary/non-free now as well...so LP isn't alone which I find odd06:40
FujitsuVery true.06:40
FlannelScottK: his argument is that it needs to achive critical mass for the benefits to be apparent.  Beofre that point, people won't want to hassle with the centralization, even if in the long run it's more cost effective06:41
FujitsuHe won't achieve critical mass with it non-free.06:41
FujitsuNot a chance.06:41
nixternalcode.google.com (Chris DiLoser) says the reason they created code.google.com is not to replace Sourceforge but to have a free system that is similar...yet Google never made it free06:41
ScottKFlannel: As long as it's proprietary, there is a 0% chance of me hosting a project on it.06:41
nixternalI was talking to Ben Sussman today about it06:42
ScottKFlannel: Since I package my stuff for Ubuntu, I can see actual benifit to being in the same infrastructure and using the tools, but the proprietariness is to big a negative.06:43
FlannelScottK: I see where you're coming from.  I don't think I have an opinion on it personally.  I was just wondering what your POV was.06:43
Fujitsunixternal: Well, that's similar to LP, but Canonical isn't quite as evil.06:43
FujitsuThat was implied.06:44
nixternalwell, all day I heard that "Ubuntu is going to sign a deal as well, but they will sugar coat it"06:44
ScottKI've already decided that my business is to important to accept the business risk of using proprietary tools.06:44
nixternaland I got bitchy with a few people who were making those statements while using "windows"06:45
nixternalpeople bringing Microsoft products to an open source party/event...well they need to swim with the fishies :)06:46
nixternalthen again, they could get online, network manager was once again hosing me with gutsy06:46
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ScottKThat's what you get for running Gutsy.06:46
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=== ScottK has two hard drives for the laptop. One is always stable.
=== Fujitsu runs Gutsy because the laptop isn't overly critical, and it's good practice to fix it if it breaks.
=== ScottK still has Feisty on the development drive, but is about ready to dist-upgrade it.
=== ScottK still runs Dapper on his desktop.
Burgundavianixternal: where were you?06:49
ScottKBurgundavia: Vista users group.06:50
nixternalBarCamp Chicago06:50
imbrandoni just run windows 3.11 and forget about it all06:50
nixternalstop lying, you dos lover!06:50
Burgundaviaahh, interesting06:51
Burgundaviaso people figure Ubuntu is going to sign a deal, eh?06:51
BurgundaviaI think, even if Mark wanted to, he cannot, due to the optics06:51
nixternalmost of them Google employees06:51
nixternalwhich I called all but 1 idiots06:51
nixternalBen Sussman is cool, the rest are morons06:51
nixternalI am like you guys use Ubuntu, call it Goobuntu or some garbage, make all kinds of changes, yet don't share them...06:52
imbrandonnixternal, i've seen it, the only changes they make are artwork06:52
nixternalI seen it tonight...quite more than artwork06:52
imbrandonpre-dapper they had some ltsp kernel patches06:52
nixternalBen uses it on his IBM lappy06:52
imbrandonthen thats Ben's customizations, i have personaly b ooted to it from a pxe boot to my lappy at googleplex, the default boot is only artwork changes06:53
nixternalit was what he had on a CD...he showed some cook SVN stuff him and a few others have done there as well06:54
=== ScottK thought is was Chicago slang.
nixternalChicago homebrewed beer06:54
nixternalhahah, that is great06:55
imbrandonnix if it was on a CD its far from "official" goobuntu, goobuntu is ONLY pxeboot or install from pxeboot06:55
nixternal12 of 21 is better06:55
nixternalahhh, he was talking about pxeboot06:55
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imbrandonhe probably just rolled a goobuntu branded custom cd, not hard but not what most of them run anyhow06:56
nixternalhe runs Kubuntu mainly, but was showing off some of the stuff Google Chicago is working on..the SVN stuff was the coolest06:58
FujitsuWhat did they do with it?06:58
Burgundaviawhat sort of SVN stuff?06:58
nixternalhell, the top 3 SVN devs all work Google Chicago now06:58
=== imbrandon goes back to rolling a pr0n-buntu
imbrandonlol j/k06:58
nixternalimbrandon: just use PCLinuxOS :)06:58
imbrandonno way06:58
FujitsuNo, just use warty.06:58
nixternaldude, it is the perfect LivePr0nCD06:59
imbrandonthats art not pr0n, i mean real pr0n06:59
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nixternallocalized history stuff, some of the good things from other projects like Monotone, Mercurial, Git, Darcs and such07:00
nixternalwe have a picture of the SVN god with a Bazaar dev :)07:00
RAOFWhat, so svn might not suck at merging sometime?07:01
nixternalRAOF: exactly a point he talked about07:01
nixternalhe even said the best right now is Mercurial07:01
FujitsuImpossible. Sucky merging is an inherent SVN thing... it just wouldn't be SVN without it.07:02
nixternalhehe, true, we wouldn't know what to do if it didn't suck07:02
nixternalall these years of learning how to hack your way around the suckiness07:02
RAOFI've tried to merge precisely one svn branch, and it was a nightmare07:03
nixternalI got lucky once, with an SVN merge that is07:03
RAOFBecause I had foolishly moved files around, no knowing that SVN would chuck a screaming hissy fit.07:03
nixternaloh ya07:04
nixternalor even delete them with rm -rf and have it go "wft did it go"07:04
imbrandonwtf did it go, classic07:04
RAOFSo, my svn merging is now done with bzr-svn, which works :)07:05
Fujitsubzr's merging it good.07:06
FujitsuWell, anything is good compared to Subversion.07:06
RAOFIndeed.  Manually applying diffs is good, compared to svn.07:06
FujitsuThat's what I do.07:06
RAOFThat's what I ended up doing, yeah.07:07
=== Fujitsu notes that the LP discussion died out.
RAOFSo, on further inspection, I think the mplayer-use-compiz patch needs reworking before it is in any way acceptable to upstream.07:08
ScottKFujitsu: Hard to have much of an argument when we all pretty much agree.07:09
nixternalFujitsu: it seems to always die out, because we end up saying the same thing...for 2 years they have been planning on open sourcing it when it was "finished"07:09
=== ScottK doesn't expect it.
FujitsuRight. And then we just wait. And wait.07:09
nixternalonly thing I have seen take 2+ years to finish was Windows07:09
FujitsuAnd wait.07:09
Fujitsunixternal: Heheh.07:09
=== ScottK just counts it as a cost of using Ubuntu.
=== ScottK also hopes if there are any CC members present (cough Burgundavia) they are taking notes.
nixternalregistering a project is easier in code.google.com and sourceforge than LP is...LP has a bunch of confusing mumbo jumbo07:10
=== Fujitsu somehow incites active opposition to LP.
FujitsuHah, the CC won't have any power over that.07:10
ScottKFujitsu: You didn't start it this time.07:10
nixternalScottK: I think Corey has hounded them enough on the aspect...you can guarantee that one!07:10
ScottKFujitsu: No, no one outside Canonical does, but I think it's important that sabdfl continue to hear that the community (at least us anyway) haven't rolled over and gotten happy with the situation.07:11
BurgundaviaI had an interesting argument with jono and Riched while in Sevilla07:11
Burgundaviaabout 10 of us went out for dinner and for about half the meal, only the three of us were talking07:12
FujitsuI'm sure there are a few of Canonical people watching us in here.07:12
Fujitsus/ of//07:12
nixternalI would have loved to have been there for that one..it seems the Canonical people have no problem defending the actions07:12
FujitsuSpeaking of jono, I haven't seem him around much lately.07:12
nixternalI just read his blog, said he is in California for FooCamp07:12
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joejaxxHello All07:13
BurgundaviaI raised the issue of LP going away like bitkeeper did07:13
joejaxxhello jussi01 07:13
nixternalhehe, bitkeeper rocked07:13
Burgundaviaand was told to not worry and that I shoudl "just trust Mark":07:13
FujitsuBurgundavia: How'd that go?07:13
FujitsuTrusting Mark doesn't last for more than a couple of years.07:13
nixternalfunny thing though, everyone at the even tonight think Mark is the next great thing for open source and free software07:14
FujitsuHe probably is.07:14
nixternalthe FSF guys even said that...the FSF guys said that RMS is just to extreme and has been preaching the same thing on a lot of dead ears for 20 years now07:15
jussi01hi joejaxx07:16
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AndyPi've been wondering how canonical is going to make money from launchpad07:16
BurgundaviaI raised the issue that Mark does get bored07:16
=== LaserJock notes he missed some good LP ranting but is too lazy to read the backlog
Burgundaviaand was "is there any sign of that?'07:17
FujitsuAndyP: Sell the service to the hordes of distributions that are clamouring to use it.07:17
Burgundaviabasically I was patronized by Jono and Riched and it pissed me off07:17
FujitsuLaserJock: Aw...07:17
joejaxxLaserJock: we should create a summarizer script for you :P07:18
AndyPthe plan seems to be: keep LP closed source -> get everyone using launchpad -> ??? -> profit!07:18
FujitsuWord's AutoSummarise!07:18
joejaxxautmatically detects certain keywords07:18
FujitsuAndyP: Right. He's obviously a /. fan.07:18
joejaxxFujitsu: :P07:18
BurgundaviaI think they are thinking of running LP ala Collab.net style07:18
Burgundaviafor internal dev teams07:18
ScottKLaserJock: Is Bug #121636 on your MOTUs are really annoyed with this LP bug list?07:18
ubotuLaunchpad bug 121636 in malone "when a bug is marked as triaged it disappears" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/12163607:18
LaserJockScottK: no07:19
FujitsuBurgundavia: Collab.net? I know not of it.07:19
Burgundaviahosted svn basically07:19
ScottKLaserJock: Please add it.  It makes Triaged mostly useless at this point.07:19
joejaxxFujitsu: it is what the oOo project uses07:19
Burgundaviaread Michael Meeks for about how crap it is07:19
FujitsuScottK: More than mostly!07:19
ScottKFujitsu: I just said mostly because of the cases where we WANT the bugs to disappear.07:20
LaserJockScottK: I know, I got rid of a bug using it ;-)07:20
FujitsuHeheh, like that one I mentioned earlier.07:20
FujitsuWon't Fix is convenient too.07:20
AndyPi think i read somewhere that there was a plan to form a business model around the big-picture data that can be mined from LP, but i might be wrong07:20
FujitsuAndyP: I've never seen a reference to that, and I've looked hard.07:20
ScottKAndyP: Dunno.  Don't care.  As long as it's a black proprietary box, I feel no responsiblity to do anything other than bitch and moan.07:21
joejaxxLaserJock: haha :P07:21
Fujitsu+1 ScottK07:21
LaserJockI couldn't care less if it was opensourced07:21
BurgundaviaLaserJock: yes you do07:22
Burgundaviacrap woudl be fixed faster07:22
LaserJockno it wouldn't07:22
Burgundaviait would things like release management07:22
Burgundaviawould have, rather07:22
nixternalya, like 2.5 years ago a bug was created to add support for tracking berlios.de bugs, and ummmmm it is still confirmed/wishlist07:22
ScottKLaserJock: Developments wouldn't get dumped on us out of no where.07:22
Burgundaviaalthough joey has done amazing work07:23
Fujitsunixternal: I suppose there are no projects that are in main that need it.07:23
nixternalwell, the bcm43xx garbage is07:23
BurgundaviaOSS is not a panacea, but managed correctly, it would LP a better place07:23
jussi01wow, you guys really know how to gripe.... :P07:23
ScottKLaserJock: I don't particularly care about the source myself, but if the development process were more open, we'd all be better off.07:23
joejaxxjussi01: lol07:23
Fujitsujussi01: We're very experienced.07:23
nixternalof course we do, we practice hard07:23
LaserJockI've seen a whole lot of crappy OSS projects07:23
Burgundaviajussi01: most of us have been doing this for at least a year, closing in on three for some of us07:24
nixternalthis is a once a week discussion almost now07:24
nixternal2 for me07:24
BurgundaviaLaserJock: crappy projects are caused by crappy management07:24
Burgundaviapure and simple07:24
ScottKLaserJock: Sure.  Not saying open source is a panacea, but that LP would be better than it is now.07:24
BurgundaviaLP had major issues until joey came along07:24
LaserJockyou don't know that though07:24
FujitsuLP has better management now that Joey has the wheel.07:24
jussi01heheh, look like i walked in at the wrong time...07:24
ScottKFujitsu: If this is better management, I feel for you that've been around here a while.07:24
LaserJockas you say, it is management, IMO, more than openness that's the problem07:24
Burgundaviabut management only solves part of the problem07:25
ScottKLaserJock: But the community can help if the management is more open.07:25
LaserJockit's *the* big problem for me07:25
Burgundavianow development is at least more consistent07:25
LaserJockScottK: what community?07:25
LaserJockwho's going to jump on the LP train?07:25
Burgundaviaall teh bloody python lovers we have07:25
ScottKLaserJock: Those of us interested in using it.07:25
nixternalBurgundavia: hahahhaa07:25
Burgundaviaeverybody who wants to fix it07:25
LaserJockdo you think they could?07:25
BurgundaviaLaserJock: stupidity is not a good argument to us07:26
Burgundaviause, rather07:26
ScottKLaserJock: As an example, the idiotic idea to only let -devs set in progress lasted one day once it was in the light.07:26
LaserJockI seriously wonder if there would be very many people interested in it07:26
Burgundavia"your are all too stupid to work on our shiny app"07:26
LaserJockBurgundavia: that's not what I'm saying07:26
BurgundaviaLaserJock: every single Ubuntu dev and user is, by the very definition, interested in LP development07:26
LaserJockI'm saying that it being open doesn't mean all of a sudden everybody starts fixing bugs07:26
FujitsuIf LP is open, more projects are likely to use it.07:26
Burgundaviano, no it doesn't07:27
FujitsuBy having more projects, there's a wider development community.07:27
LaserJockI would do the same thing I'm doing now07:27
Burgundaviaif it is open, maybe we can get GNOME or Debian using it07:27
LaserJockfiling bugs07:27
Burgundaviaperhaps KDE07:27
ScottKLaserJock: No, not necessarily fixing more bugs, but maybe LP devs stop doing stupid stuff because they don't understand the community.07:27
Burgundavianone of them are going to use a closed source app to track bugs07:27
LaserJockScottK: I don't see how that would change with it being opensourced07:27
LaserJockBurgundavia: that's a fair point07:27
FujitsuBurgundavia: That's a good page.07:28
LaserJockI can see adoption being hurt by it being open sourced07:28
Burgundaviaone of the reasons python does not LP for a bug tracker is because IT IS CLOSED SOURCE07:28
FujitsuThat's a new version.07:28
LaserJocksorry s/open/closed/07:28
ScottKLaserJock: If it's open and the development is open, more of us will be able to see what they are planning and maybe save them the trouble of inflicting something stupidon us.07:28
BurgundaviaGNOME translators would love to use Rosetta, but it is closed source07:28
LaserJockScottK: I'm not sure that that is really the case07:28
FujitsuRosetta seems to be great.07:28
LaserJockwe already can see the bugs, we at least have little snippets of the specs07:29
FujitsuLaserJock: We could see the bloody specs.07:29
Burgundaviaif you look at most of the people using LP, they are already existing Ubuntu devs or users07:29
BurgundaviaJokosher, by example07:29
LaserJockI agree that they should open up the wiki for at least sanatized versions07:29
LaserJockand many within LP agree07:29
ScottKLaserJock: Where's the spec that said they were going to make it so only -devs could mark in progress?07:29
LaserJockScottK: it's on the wiki07:29
Burgundaviawhich wiki?07:29
LaserJockthe Ubuntu wiki07:29
ScottKLaserJock: Where?07:30
Burgundaviathere are a million good reasons either way07:30
LaserJockapparently that wiki page is slightly outdated, but it has what you're looking for07:30
Burgundaviaat the end of the day, the question that needs to be asked is: "Is Launchpad being closed source good for Ubuntu?"07:31
FujitsuAnd the answer is a resounding no.07:31
LaserJocklook, I think LP being opensourced would be a cool thing, no doubt07:31
LaserJockbut I'm not going to get all upset over it07:31
LaserJockbecause at the end of the day, I'm not convinced it would change anything for me07:31
LaserJockI think it would be good from a philosophical standpoint, "Ubuntu should be developed on an open source infrastructure"07:32
FujitsuI've seen people say they won't get involved with Ubuntu because of LP.07:32
LaserJockand I see that point07:32
LaserJockI *don't* see "If LP was open sourced then it would be so much better"07:32
BurgundaviaI think the process around its development would be better07:33
Burgundaviawhich, in time, will produce a better app07:33
LaserJockwell, maybe07:33
ScottKLaserJock: In the end, if Canonical believes in Open Source, then the default ought to be it's Free unless there is a strong reason not to and I have yet to see a sensible strong reason not to.07:33
FujitsuWe'd have more developers. More people who actually matter could help with it.07:33
LaserJockI agree to some degree07:33
LaserJockFujitsu: I don't think you would07:33
joejaxxhas then been a spec to talk about this at a UDS07:33
nixternal$$$$ is a strong reason if you are Canonical I am sure07:33
ScottKIt's pretty well established that open source development produces better software.07:33
LaserJockI think it would be hard to gain as much developer power as what Canonical is pumping into it now07:34
Fujitsujoejaxx: I don't think they'd allow it.07:34
ScottKnixternal: I don't even see that.07:34
joejaxxFujitsu: oh?07:34
LaserJockFujitsu: oh come on07:34
FlannelWell, if LP was open source, it would probably be navigatable again.07:34
FujitsuLaserJock: It's hard to say.07:34
LaserJockMark and several other Canonical people have talked about it before07:34
LaserJockit's not a dirty little secret that they censor07:34
LaserJockFlannel: I doubt it07:35
nixternalya, I listened in on some of the LP talks at UDS via voip07:35
ScottKLaserJock: talked about what?07:35
LaserJockLP being closed source and why it isn't07:35
ScottKLaserJock: None of which makes much sense to me.  Maybe they get it and I don't.07:35
FlannelLaserJock: Eh, it was usable before the rewrite.  Now it's just impossible for anyone to find anything unless they know where it is already.07:35
joejaxxLaserJock: so they would not allow a UDS session on it? to discuss its current standing?07:36
FujitsuParticularly Soyuz navigation absolutely sucks.07:36
LaserJockFlannel: and I don't think that would change if it was suddenly open sourced07:36
LaserJockjoejaxx: I don't see why they wouldn't07:36
LaserJockgeeze, it's not a big deal07:36
FujitsuWhat discussion is there? "We're not doing it in the foreseeable future. BoF dismissed."07:36
ScottKLaserJock: It's not a big deal to YOU.07:36
joejaxxFujitsu: no07:36
joejaxxcome on07:37
joejaxxi doubt they would do that07:37
LaserJockif the developer community is interested, then let's send a letter to Mark asking for an explanation07:37
joejaxxit would be interesting to bring up all these things you all have said07:37
joejaxxin here07:37
LaserJockit's not a big deal, really07:37
ScottKjoejaxx: They would have slides and it would take longer, but it would amount to that.07:37
Fujitsujoejaxx: True.07:37
joejaxxparticularly the python/gnome/kde07:37
joejaxxand present it to them07:37
joejaxxthat is what i am talking about07:37
ScottKLaserJock: I'm not really interested in a defense of proprietary infrastructure.  I want free software.  An explanation is really no help at all.07:38
LaserJockbut you can encourage Mark to timeline it or whatever you want07:38
Burgundaviaa timeline would be snazzy07:38
ScottKLaserJock: From my perspective this last go round dumped a lot of cr@p on us and it would have been worse if we hadn't started screaming.  07:38
LaserJockI'm just saying, address it if you want, you don't have to sit here complain all the time07:39
FujitsuBack to the discussion of about 10 months ago.07:39
joejaxxi really think there should be a uds session about it if people really feel that strongly about it, present cases and facts and see what is said in response07:39
BurgundaviaLaserJock: I have raised it with Mark several times as well07:39
LaserJockthis is one of the most open communities I know, surely it's not that hard07:39
ScottKLaserJock: If there were more community involvement, it'd have been better.  Since it's proprietary, it's up to them.07:39
LaserJockthis isn't Debian07:39
LaserJockwe have a corporate sponsor07:39
joejaxxi doubt they would turn down a spec that 100 people are subscribed to :P07:39
LaserJockgotta take the good with the bad07:39
FujitsuTheir version of community discussion is a UDS BoF that isn't publicised.07:39
LaserJockI say having full time developers is the good07:40
ScottKLaserJock: Yes, take the good with the bad, but it doesn't mean we have to like it.07:40
LaserJocknot having complete control over development infrastructre is the bad07:40
LaserJockScottK: I'm not saying you have to07:40
LaserJockbut I think we have some constructive things we can do perhaps07:40
LaserJockthis last "status" thing was a storm in a teapot07:41
LaserJockit really didn't need to be as big of a deal as it ended up being07:41
ScottKLaserJock: As long as the LP methology is an oh by the way e-mail to devel-discuss, it's hard to know what to do.07:41
FujitsuIt shows enormous flaws in LP's development process.07:41
ScottKFujitsu: +107:41
FujitsuWhat ScottK said.07:41
LaserJockwell, geeze, we do that sort of stuff all the time07:42
LaserJockgranted on a smaller scale07:42
LaserJockbut "Oops, btw, I broke the kernel today"07:42
joejaxxLaserJock: :P07:42
LaserJocksometimes crap happens07:42
LaserJockI agree that we need better communication07:42
ScottKLaserJock: How often does it happen on a released Ubuntu version?07:42
ScottKLaserJock: WE don't need better communication, they do.07:43
LaserJockand I'll come right out and say it that I'm fairly disappointed that Revell hasn't been on top of these things07:43
LaserJockbut gosh, we've got lots of communication problems07:43
LaserJockI guess I just don't let it bother me all that much07:44
LaserJockI can see why people get upset07:44
ScottKSure, everyone has communication problems, but as long as LP is proprietary, the responsibility can only lie in one place.07:44
LaserJockI'm fine with that07:44
LaserJockyou may not07:44
ScottKLaserJock: What is the antecedant of 'that'07:44
LaserJockI'm fine with it being their problem07:45
LaserJockalthough I don't think your statement is strickly true07:45
FujitsuWe break things in development releases (except for X.org in Dapper, but that was really bad).07:45
LaserJockI've often talked with LP devs and they really wanted to know what their users (us) thought and needed07:46
LaserJockFujitsu: and they realize that this status thing was a "really bad"07:46
FujitsuThey do? Good.07:46
LaserJockand it wasn't that bad either07:46
ScottKYes, good.  First I've heard of it.07:46
LaserJockthey make all kinds of changes all the time07:46
ScottKIt was a lot less bad then it might have been because they didn't fully deploy it.07:47
LaserJockit sucks documentation wise and they should have given us some heads-up time07:47
FujitsuIt was announced to a non-developer list of part of their userbase. The announcement was misleading, and the changes deserved a lot more warning.07:48
ScottKAnd it didn't actually work correctly either (link translations and failing to include all open statuses in searches)07:48
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ScottKIt appeared to have had very little testing.07:48
LaserJockFujitsu: sure, heno was a little confused07:48
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LaserJockthey are doing monthly rollouts, I doubt it gets all *that* much testing anyway07:48
FujitsuAs heno's the one who should know about that stuff (other then Mr. Revell), that's even worse.07:48
ScottKThat's a problem.07:49
FujitsuThey used to have weekly rollouts.07:49
FujitsuNothing had broken too badly in a while.07:49
FujitsuTheir review process is still similar, AFAIK.07:49
LaserJockgosh, you guys act as if no other software ever has bugs or mishaps or bad features07:49
LaserJockwe deal with this stuff all the time07:49
LaserJockjust because it's proprietary doesn't mean we need to treat it all that differently07:50
ScottKLaserJock: Yes.  Absolutely it does.07:50
LaserJockespecially since many of the devs come from an open source community07:50
LaserJockScottK: I think that's crap, but whatever07:50
ScottKLaserJock: As long as it's proprietary, the community has no responsibility for it.07:50
FujitsuIt's proprietary, the open source community depends on it, and we have to trust the proprietary devs.07:50
LaserJockso what?07:50
LaserJockhonestly, geeze07:50
LaserJockyou guys have never had to rely on anythin proprietary in your lives?07:51
ScottKIt's a question of where the responsibility lies.07:51
=== joejaxx thinks that discussion would be better discussed at a UDS BoF
LaserJockI see problems, I file bugs, bug hopefully get fixed07:51
Fujitsujoejaxx: That's a few months away yet.07:51
joejaxxFujitsu: yes but i can still wish07:51
FujitsuLaserJock: ... or they sit around for a year or two.07:51
LaserJockFujitsu: and we don't have bugs like that?07:52
LaserJockI mean, I really don't see any difference here07:52
FujitsuWith F/LOSS, you can scratch your own itch, so to speak.07:52
ScottKLaserJock: WIth most apps, if I don't like the new features, I can run the old version.  Not so with LP.07:52
FujitsuThat too.07:52
LaserJockdo you get to do that with Google?07:52
LaserJockwith Yahoo?07:53
LaserJockwith Amazon?07:53
FujitsuI don't want to be forced to run Vista the second it's released.07:53
LaserJockit's a service guys07:53
FlannelLaserJock: yes.  You simply don't shop at Amazon.07:53
LaserJockwe use them everyday07:53
joejaxxnot to disrupt the current discussion but does anyone know what the "later" mileston is?07:53
joejaxxon lp?07:53
LaserJockI think it is obsolete07:53
ScottKNo, but if Google get's things wrong enough, I can use Yahoo.07:53
joejaxxLaserJock: oh ok07:53
Fujitsujoejaxx: Used to be for stuff that should be done before release, but not a milsetone in particular, AFAIK.07:54
joejaxxah ok07:54
joejaxxjust wondering thanks07:54
LaserJockI mean, I totally understand that opensourced LP would be better07:54
LaserJockbut I'm not going to get an ulcer over it not being07:54
ScottKLaserJock: For some other distro, it's a service that distro has chosen to use.  For Ubuntu it's a critical part of our tool chain.07:54
LaserJockand I *have* to trust Mark and Canonical enough to use it07:54
LaserJockpart of being an Ubuntu developer right now is dealing with issues with Canonical07:55
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LaserJockit's the nature of the beast07:55
ScottKLaserJock: Sure.  I'm here now aren't I.07:55
FujitsuIt's mostly manageable.07:55
FujitsuThere are some conflicts, but it's pretty OK.07:55
LaserJockso if we don't like it we can say so, and work towards getting a better situation07:55
ScottKBut as I said at the beginning, the proprietary toolset is a negative aspect of an overall positive picture.07:55
crimsundo you mean "part of being an Ubuntu developer right now is accepting issues beyond your control"?07:56
LaserJockI can see where people would think that07:56
ScottKLaserJock: I just don't see what can be done on our end to make the situation better.07:56
LaserJockI personally don't care, and that's justme07:56
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AndyPScottK: write a better LP clone :)07:56
ScottKHi crimsun.  How'd househunting go?07:56
LaserJockwell, for one thing it doesn't help to just complain about it being closed source, therefor it sucks07:56
LaserJockthe LP devs really want to make LP better07:57
crimsunScottK: not bad, I've settled on Columbia given the N-S commute07:57
LaserJockbut they need actionable material07:57
LaserJockI've been trying to work on that some07:57
ScottKLaserJock: It doesn't suck because of the fact that it's closed source, it's just harder to make it better/more widely used because it is.07:57
joejaxxwell one thing is if this is a sprint at the next UDS07:57
LaserJockScottK: agreed07:57
joejaxxi think our discussions will be alot more productive07:57
ScottKcrimsun: It's a nice area.  If you're headed into DC, it's about the best direction to head in from.07:58
LaserJockI don't think a UDS BOF would be helpful at all07:58
LaserJockI think it would be a disaster07:58
joejaxxLaserJock: really?07:58
LaserJockyes, really07:58
FujitsuUDS BoFs worked well for the status changes07:58
=== ScottK agreew w/ LaserJock
joejaxxwhy? :\07:58
LaserJockpeople would just yell at each other and nothing would get done07:58
LaserJockthis is a Canonical policy issue07:58
joejaxxwell people need to learn to act civil :P07:58
ScottKjoejaxx: Keep in mind the level of passion here and remember this is only one side of the discussion. 07:58
LaserJockthat has community consequences07:58
FujitsuI can see a lot of yelling and not much else, like LaserJock.07:58
ScottKIt would get load.07:59
joejaxxtrue :\07:59
LaserJockwhat we would need is a unified community statement07:59
LaserJockheck, MOTU could go on strike or something if it truely came to it07:59
LaserJockbut us grumbling amongst each other does nothing much to help the situation, IMO07:59
FujitsuNyeh, Canonical doesn't need us that much.07:59
ScottKAndyP: I don't feel a need to replace LP (now), but I would like it to support our processes rather than attempt to drive them.08:00
joejaxxFujitsu: yes they do08:00
joejaxxif universe halted there would be a problem08:00
AndyPScottK: yeah, bit drastic isn't it... i was half joking 08:00
LaserJockScottK: honestly though, the status stuff was oiginally designed to do that08:00
crimsunjoejaxx: only to an extent.  There are plenty of people who will compile their own debs and post URLs to them.08:01
joejaxxcrimsun: ah that is true08:01
LaserJockthe issue is not so much specific to LP though08:01
joejaxxbut it has been there for quite some while08:01
FlannelLaserJock: I hardly think a strike is appropriate.  You hurt the users more than anything else.  Once theyre gone (even if the strike only lasts a day) the fallout will remain.08:01
joejaxxso it is a convenience now08:01
ScottKLaserJock: I believer that was the goal, just not how it was going to end up.08:01
crimsunUbuntu as a distro most definitely does not need MOTU.08:01
crimsunit helps immensely to have diligent MOTU, but it's not a matter of life or death.08:02
LaserJockwe (the volunteer community) have a lot of interfaces with Canonical and at those interfaces friction can happen08:02
joejaxxcrimsun: because most of the stuff is in main (ie maintained by u-c-d) ?08:02
FujitsuThe main stuff that users use is, unsurprisingly, in main.08:02
LaserJockcommunication is a key aspect here08:02
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LaserJockCanonical could really use better communication with the volunteer community08:03
FujitsuUbuntu would operate without universe, and could even just grab stuff unmodified from Debian. MOTU aren't really necessary in the scheme of things.08:03
DarkSun88Hi all08:03
FujitsuThey definitely could.08:03
FujitsuHi DarkSun88. Welcome to the warzone.08:03
LaserJockCanonical is probably one of the better Linux companies around, but it could still use a lot more08:03
DarkSun88Fujitsu: :D08:03
LaserJockThe thing with this spec is, the LP devs did discuss it with the community08:03
LaserJockin a BOF in Sevilla08:03
LaserJockso for them they got the "user" feedback they needed to procede08:04
FujitsuThat wasn't publicised.08:04
LaserJockthat's an issue08:04
FujitsuI only discovered it when trawling through Malone specs a week ago.08:04
LaserJockI feel like we do a bad job of giving out the results of the UDSs08:04
Fujitsubug-workflow doesn't to me say "let's rewrite all the statuses and permissions!"08:04
FujitsuSo I didn't think much of it until I read it recently.08:05
LaserJockbut lots of things are done that way presently08:05
ScottKAs I understand it, they had a discussion of a PART of the changes, at UDS, not all of them.08:05
crimsunUDS specifically aren't for the community; they're for Canonical employees paid to work on Ubuntu.08:05
LaserJockI don't know a 10th of what's going on after a UDS08:05
LaserJockin fact, as I said earlier, I talked with kiko, BjornT, and mdz about statuses earlier in the week08:06
LaserJockand I got blindsided with these changes08:06
LaserJockso obviously it didn't get out properly08:06
FujitsuNot good.08:06
LaserJockbut I think that's more of a communication issue, rather than "LP is closed source so it's evil"08:07
LaserJockI honestly think we can get much further by completely avoiding the proprietary issue08:07
AndyPopenness and communication are linked quite strongly08:07
=== elkbuntu would love to see the alternative with 20 LP's trying to be synched
LaserJockbecause I feel that that isn't *the* issue08:07
FujitsuThat part is due to communication, but the whole bug status thing would have been avoided if their development process was more open.08:08
LaserJock*the* issue is a lack of communication, which can happen anywhere08:08
Fujitsuelkbuntu: Right, that's one problem.08:08
poningruwhere is jono08:08
elkbuntuFujitsu, and one that would add to the communication barriers08:08
poningrubeen reading scroll back08:08
elkbuntuponingru, probably on a plane somewhere08:08
ScottKLaserJock: I agree that communication is the issue, not (primarily) the close nature of it, but the fact that it's closed put the onus on them to do all the communicating.08:08
LaserJockFujitsu: LPs development process is about as open as Ubuntu's, roughly08:08
poningrudef needs jono in here to answer these questions08:08
LaserJockScottK: no it doesn't08:08
ScottKelkbuntu: Why does it matter if the upstream bug tracker is another LP or a bugzilla?08:09
LaserJockScottK: it makes it more difficult, for sure08:09
Fujitsujono is the Ubuntu community manager. I think this is more Matt Revell's domain.08:09
ScottKLaserJock: It's either a community project or it's not.08:09
poningruFujitsu: the reason being I think this is more a lack of communication between community and canonical08:09
FujitsuScottK: It does matter, in that LP could probably be taught to communicate with another LP very easily :P08:09
LaserJockScottK: I don't think it matters so much08:10
elkbuntuScottK, it's already a challenge keeping them all in touch, without complicating it even further08:10
poningruFujitsu: and I see this problem not only in the motu||LP devel communication08:10
poningruI also see it in marketing08:10
LaserJockI think it's hard to really tell what is a "community project" and what isn't08:10
poningruwhere we have no fracking idea who the marketing person is at canonical08:10
LaserJockyou can see LP bugs08:10
ScottKFujitsu: Right, so opening up LP and spreading them would make things better than a monolithic proprietary LP that others won't use.08:10
LaserJockyou can see LP specs (there should be enough to get an idea of what's going on)08:10
FujitsuScottK: Right. They can communicate, and the world lives in peace and harmony forever. Aw.08:11
crimsunLaserJock: what's difficult?08:11
FujitsuLaserJock: A lot of them have a description of one line.08:11
poningruanyway Burgundavia going to sleep got a bit done as far as thursday goes will upload it tomorrow08:11
LaserJockcrimsun: communication to a proprietary app development team08:11
Fujitsuponingru: Night.08:11
ScottKLaserJock: Look at the fraction of Ubuntu core-devs that are not Canonical employees and then do the same caluculation for LP.  I think you'll find it very different.08:12
LaserJockFujitsu: they *should* have enough to get an idea08:12
LaserJockScottK: but what does that matter?08:12
LaserJockI mean, what does that prove08:12
ScottKYou said LP development and Ubuntu development were equally open.08:12
ScottKThey aren't.  LP development is limited to Canonical devs.08:12
ScottKOK roughly.08:12
LaserJockand core Ubuntu development is roughly limited to Canonical08:13
FujitsuI know LP had one community dev for a short period a long time ago.08:13
LaserJockthey define priorities08:13
LaserJockthey pay the key people and tell them what to work on08:13
LaserJockthey do a lot of stuff behind our backs08:13
ScottKRight, but they still can't tell you what to work on.08:13
FujitsuWhereas they do with LP. We can't work on anything.08:13
LaserJockwell, LP devs aren't doing that either08:13
ScottKIf you want to make package X do Y and upload it, it's there.  08:13
LaserJockthere isn't anything to work on ;-)08:14
ScottKYes, because it's closed source08:14
LaserJockScottK: well, only to a certain extent08:14
LaserJockthe archive admins are Canonical08:14
=== jussi01 sighs...
FujitsuThat's mostly because LP is deficient.08:14
LaserJockthey *could* stop volunteer devs if they wanted to08:14
FujitsuThere's no UI.08:14
ScottKSure.  They've got the ultimate veto power.08:14
LaserJockanyway, this is a little sidebar08:15
LaserJockmy point was that Ubuntu isn't completely open either08:15
ScottKSure.  What is.08:15
LaserJockit's a part of having a distro that is sponsored by a company08:15
ScottKEven Debian isn't completely open.  It just has it's closed aspects worked a different way.08:16
crimsunwhat I'm reading is that LP changes could have been better disclosed to its potential clients.08:16
LaserJockI'd love to see us use a free and open source infrastrucure tool08:16
LaserJockcrimsun: exactly08:16
LaserJockand tbh, I'm not convinced the "big idea" of LP is going to work08:16
ScottKAnd they could have been less brain dead too (the changes).08:17
LaserJockbut I don't control what we use and I like LP just fine and I think the LP devs do a good job08:17
LaserJockso even though I'm not particularly fond of the way LP is developed some days, I work *with* LP devs to make it better08:17
LaserJockbecause I don't think it's just going to "go away"08:18
ScottKLP is generally fine these days (although personally I don't particularly like the new UI).  I just wish they wouldn't do stuff that makes it worse.08:18
LaserJockwith something like 1/2 to 2/3 of his company into LP I can't imagine Mark will just let it go08:18
ScottKI wouldn't expect them to let it go.08:18
LaserJockScottK: sure, and much of that can be corrected08:18
ScottKLaserJock: Yes, but why are we doing that after the fact.  08:19
LaserJocksome things are tough to change because of the way it's written08:19
LaserJockScottK: cause they goofed, they didn't test enough, they didn't get enough user feedback08:19
LaserJockstuff that happens to us all the time08:19
LaserJockthink of all the silly SRUs we have to do08:19
ScottKI'd say that they got all the user feedback they asked for.08:20
LaserJockwell, they though they had enough08:20
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LaserJockthey got, I think, several of the big players in Ubuntu to be ok with their changes08:20
ScottKOr at least the fraction of the changes they discussed.08:20
AndyPthey should encourage user feedback at every stage... as you said, that wiki page went out of date (why?)08:21
LaserJockbecause it changed at the Sevilla BOF I think08:21
LaserJockor something roughly like that08:21
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ScottKLaserJock: My understanding from someone who was there was that not all of the proposed changes (the limits on status changes in particular) were discussed at UDS.08:22
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LaserJockthat's possible08:22
LaserJockoften times they don't think it's going to be a big deal and then it is08:22
FujitsuScottK: I have talked to someone who said similar.08:22
LaserJockstuff like this happens08:22
LaserJockI think we *can* help them do better08:23
ScottKIt seems disingenuous to me to discuss part of a spec at UDS and then respond to complaints about the stuff not discussed with "But we discussed the spec at UDS:.08:23
LaserJockwell, there's a lot more too it08:23
LaserJockLP devs see distro employees as just as good as asking us08:24
LaserJockthey don't always get a proper sampling of feedback08:24
ScottKLaserJock: I'm sure there is, but this is where it being proprietary hurts again.  As long as it's a proprietary app, my give a darn factor for how hard it is for them is very low.08:25
ScottKBy deciding to make LP proprietary, Canonical has really made it their problem.08:25
LaserJockI guess08:26
LaserJockI've talked to these guys08:26
LaserJockand know how much they are interested in helping us08:26
elkbuntuthis discussion isnt really going to solve anything...08:26
LaserJockobviously, LP being proprietary makes it harder08:26
LaserJockbut I guess Mark has weighed the pros and cons08:26
joejaxxhello elkbuntu :)08:27
LaserJockand decided that for now at least it remains unreleased08:27
LaserJockelkbuntu: I think it's useful08:27
ScottKelkbuntu: I agree, but LaserJock is the MOTU rep to LP, so I think it's important for him to be stuffed full of the community opinion on this.08:27
LaserJockI've talked to kiko once about the status thing already08:27
ScottKLaserJock: Useful yes, but for who?  It doesn't help me any.08:27
LaserJockwell, I don't think he was all that happy about it08:28
ScottKWho is kiko?08:28
FujitsuOne of the LP bergods.08:28
elkbuntuScottK, in terms of it's probably better with more LP people in the discussion08:28
FujitsuAlmost on top, I think.08:28
LaserJockChristian Reis08:29
ScottKHenrick (who was fronting the mailing list discussion) seemed unable to really get that we had people who were devs that fixed bugs.08:29
ScottKLaserJock: Doesn't help me any.08:29
ScottKFujitsu: Thanks.08:29
LaserJockScottK: as Fujitsu said, one of the top admins in the LP world08:29
FujitsuScottK: weren't devs, you mean? I got that too.08:29
LaserJockkiko is my primarly technical contact08:29
ScottKFujitsu: Yes.  Weren't devs.08:29
FujitsuI'm not sure how SteveA relates to him.08:29
LaserJockI think they're kinda at the same level08:30
LaserJockbut oversee different aspects perhaps08:30
LaserJockor SteveA might be his immediate boss, I'm not sure08:30
LaserJockI'd love to see an organizational chart08:30
FujitsuAnyhow, kiko is very very close to the top of all things LP.08:30
FujitsuYeah, it'd be interesting.08:30
LaserJockkiko is my primary LP technical contact08:30
ScottKOK.  What kind of not happy?08:31
LaserJockhe *came* to me asking for a MOTU liason08:31
joejaxxhow many people work on LP?08:31
LaserJockjoejaxx: roughly 50 I think08:31
ScottKLaserJock: I guess the kindest thing I can say is how to use the liaison is still a work in progress then.08:31
Fujitsu(developers, that is)08:31
LaserJockFujitsu: right08:32
joejaxxAndyP: ah good thinking i never thought about that08:32
FujitsuThat was my reference, AndyP.08:32
LaserJockScottK: I agree08:32
LaserJockthere's a lot that goes one though08:32
LaserJockI honestly feel like I at least should have been given a heads up08:32
LaserJockto pass on to MOTU08:32
ScottKAlternatively, it's all just window dressing because they are going to do what they are going to to.08:32
LaserJockespecially since I talked with the LP devs about the statuses at Sevilla08:32
LaserJockI doubt it08:33
ScottKWould you ask them to bump the Triaged bugs disappear bug to Critical.08:33
LaserJockI just got an email from kiko asking me to use the motu tag more08:33
ScottKLaserJock: I doubt it too, but at this point either theory fits the data.08:33
FujitsuThat should be trivial to fix, and Triaged is useless without it.08:33
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LaserJockright now I've got about 8 bugs that I've asked to get fixed that have been08:34
FujitsuAfternoon, Hobbsee.08:34
LaserJockit's sometimes slow work, no doubt08:34
LaserJockbut they *do* work on them08:34
AndyPwell, presumably they only work 9-5 on weekdays :)08:35
LaserJockheh, they work a fair amount08:35
LaserJockI think they do more than 40hrs/week08:35
LaserJockin general08:35
LaserJockfrom what I can see, Rosetta is taking a lot of resources08:36
Hobbseehi Fujitsu 08:36
crimsunwell, I always give them the benefit of the doubt; development is a painstaking problem, and I'm on both ends08:36
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crimsunclients nearly always have a different idea of "critical" from developers08:37
ScottKHello Hobbsee.08:37
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Hobbseehi ScottK, crimsun, LaserJock, AndyP 08:37
crimsunhi Hobbsee 08:37
AndyPhello Hobbsee 08:37
LaserJockhi Hobbsee 08:37
crimsun(plus I'm not an employee, nor have I purchased a support contract, so I'm a nobody.  I just don't bother.)08:38
LaserJocklook, I'll try to talk to kiko and perhaps joey and matthew revell this next week08:38
AndyPhere's an idea... get LP devs to do some MOTU work or bug triage for a training week :)08:38
LaserJockand see if we can hash out some communication and SOS plans08:38
AndyPput them in our shoes08:39
ScottKHobbsee: You've been missing all the fun.  We've been on a collective LP rant for over 3 hours now.08:39
FujitsuThis is the longest one to date, I think.08:39
LaserJockAndyP: and we get to develop LP for a week? :-)08:39
HobbseeScottK: oh woot.  i need to file some critical bugs on it, too08:39
FujitsuMakes for a fun afternoon.08:39
ScottKLP Bug #1 - Launchpad not open source.08:39
AndyPLaserJock: no, i'll stick with ubuntu stuff i think, much more fun08:39
LaserJockso here's my ideas, see if you guys agree:08:40
Hobbseeoh right, it got filed.  https://launchpad.net/bugs/12163608:40
ubotuLaunchpad bug 121636 in malone "when a bug is marked as triaged it disappears" [High,Confirmed]  08:40
FujitsuHobbsee: Ah yes, that one.08:40
FujitsuNice job on their part to manage to stuff that up.08:40
ScottKHobbsee: I already asked LaserJock to add it to his MOTU really annoyed list.08:40
Hobbseei marked a bug as critical and triaged - made me go "so, uh, where on earth is that bug i just marked as critical, for herd 2?"08:40
LaserJock1. We need an SOS plan. That is to say, if they do something or something critical happens we (MOTU) need a way to get a fix ASAP08:41
calci'm pretty sure disappearing triaged bugs issue will be fixed pretty fast ;)08:41
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ScottKcalc: But you work for Canonical, so you'd say that.08:41
Fujitsucalc: It's waiting for the next rollout.08:41
FujitsuScottK: Exactly what I thought too.08:41
FujitsuSo, it's a month away.08:41
LaserJock2. We need to know relevent LP changes at least a week? before a rollout08:41
calcScottK: that kind of bug affects everyone including employees though08:41
calcFujitsu: what?08:42
LaserJock3. Have a number of LP beta-testers that can test MOTU-critical activites before rollout08:42
HobbseeScottK: i'm not sure that canonical has a blanket 'you must say only positive things about canonical' rule08:42
calcFujitsu: they don't rollout faster when they break critical stuff?08:42
Fujitsucalc: Unless it's Critical, it's not a candidate for cherrypicking.08:42
FujitsuIt's obviously not important enough.08:42
ScottKHobbsee: I was actually kidding.  He's new enough not to have been fully brainwashed yet.08:42
calcFujitsu: ah ok apparently this bug is already critical though08:42
calcFujitsu: oh nm its high08:42
HobbseeScottK: where'd you get your bitterness from?08:42
=== calc reads the bug report
AndyPit's not critical, it's "High"08:43
ScottK3+ hours of whining about LP08:43
FujitsuAndyP: Exactly.08:43
ScottKThat and it's almost 3AM here.  I have no idea why I didn't just go to bed.08:43
LaserJockso what do people think about my points?08:44
HobbseeLaserJock: being that ubuntu isnt the only group in launchpad, i'm not sure they care terribly much08:44
crimsun(3) needs a clearly delineated set of "activities" with precise test cases08:44
FujitsuLaserJock: Point 3 was done this time. Staging was accessible to everyone... for about 24 hours before the change entered production.08:44
ScottKLaserJock: I think 2 and 3 go together.  If there were MOTUs involved in testing, they could seek community opinions if stuff seemed odd to them.08:44
LaserJockwell, I split them as in08:45
LaserJockwe get a list of LP changes08:45
LaserJockthen we have a number of MOTUs that can go through and test08:45
LaserJockI guess I'm thinking like doing Release Candidate .iso testing08:45
crimsunI would strongly advise against that approach08:45
LaserJockok :-)08:46
ScottKThey key is getting the list early enough so that if we come back and say, "OMG, no - that will kill us", they don't say, "Sorry, too late."08:46
LaserJockwell, we do have the milestones08:46
Fujitsucrimsun: What issues do you see?08:46
crimsuninstead, we should delineate our critical use cases detailing what our typical procedure is and what the expected result is08:47
=== calc seconded Hobbsee's request
Hobbseecalc: which request, sorry?08:47
calcHobbsee: to get that stupid LP bug fixed ASAP ;)08:47
LaserJockcrimsun: so like on a wiki page or something that they can use?08:47
crimsunwe definitely do not want LP rollout blocking on MOTU08:47
Hobbseeah right08:47
crimsunLaserJock: yes08:47
Hobbseecalc: it's blocking ubuntu-release08:47
Hobbseeso, as far as i'm concerned, it's critical.08:47
Hobbseemaybe i'm biased, as i'm part of ubuntu-release08:47
LaserJockwell, I wasn't really seeing it as blocking them08:48
FujitsuHobbsee: It's not blocking them. It's just making their job easier :P08:48
LaserJockbut giving them some time to fix critical stuff before rollout08:48
calcHobbsee: well i think ubuntu is a high enough customer of LP to get something like that fixed quickly if it blocks ubuntu for stuff... but we'll see08:48
crimsunLaserJock: if we can add to the regression suite, it's much better than having to ping-pong us08:48
HobbseeFujitsu: where them == ubuntu-release?  sure, but it's not actually getting the bugs fixed, it's losing them.08:48
Hobbseecalc: i would think so.  i only noticed it last night when doing some RMing08:48
LaserJockcrimsun: good point08:49
calcluckily i haven't triaged any OOo bugs in the past couple days08:49
calcso the tag wasn't there to cause me problems08:49
LaserJockcrimsun: I'm not sure what all we'd give them but it sounds reasonable08:49
=== calc leaving for real now
crimsunwell, our hangup seems to be sponsoring, so we outline our typical sponsorship protocol08:50
crimsuna secondary one is SRU, but that could be tied to main as well08:50
LaserJocksometimes when I've talked with LP devs about how we often us LP they are a bit surprised08:50
LaserJockthey should really know what our typical workflow is08:50
LaserJockhow we are using LP08:50
crimsunlike I said, most of us are just peons.  It's you high exposure deity folk that they see.08:50
LaserJockI've tried to do a little informally08:51
FujitsuIt's the distro team that they see.08:51
LaserJockcrimsun: we're all peons ;-)08:51
crimsunFujitsu: yes, the "paying clients" of sorts.08:51
HobbseeFujitsu: they do listen to non-canonical people.  sometimes.08:51
Hobbseeat least some people within canonical do08:51
LaserJockI think they are also fairly interested in MOTU as well08:51
Hobbseebut you have to be careful in what you say :P08:52
LaserJockbecause I think MOTU are probably closer to what their real clients would be08:52
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LaserJockwell, Joey gets them using the milestones better I think it will help08:53
LaserJockI just checked the 1.1.6 milestone and I don't see anything about the status thing08:53
FujitsuLaserJock: It's the second of the two specs.08:53
LaserJockwhere are you looking?08:53
LaserJockoh freaking heck08:54
FujitsuOn malone.08:54
LaserJockthey have the specs split up by product/project08:54
FujitsuThere's no unified LP project milestone page.08:54
FujitsuIt makes sense.08:55
LaserJockI was looking only at the Launchpad milestone08:55
FujitsuBut the launchpad-project project group should really list them all.08:55
LaserJockthat's what it does for bugs08:55
FujitsuI guess that would make too much sense, though.08:56
LaserJockso we got 1 good spec and 1 not-so-good spec out of malone08:56
LaserJockI *was* around for the MOTU permissions spec08:56
FujitsuThe first was very quick in the implementation. It only took like 2 months from when it was proposed a couple of days before UDS. I was surprised.08:56
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ScottKHobbsee: I did file bugs with the Postfix changes you uploaded yesterday with Debian today.08:58
HobbseeScottK: cool08:58
LaserJockbtw, I've got 15 "motu" bugs in LP right now08:58
LaserJockI did have like 4 or 5, so hopefully they'll keep busy08:58
LaserJockI've got to get to bed, so let me wrap up a little here08:59
HobbseeLaserJock: who will you poke over them?08:59
FujitsuWell, it seems to have died out after about 3.5 hours. Not a bad effort.08:59
FujitsuNight, LaserJock.08:59
ScottKGood night LaserJock08:59
LaserJockHobbsee: "motu" is an official LP dev tag, kiko "appoints" resources and prioritizes them for me09:00
LaserJockI think the discussion is useful09:00
=== ScottK should get to bed too. LaserJock is two hours west of me and it's late for him.
HobbseeLaserJock: right.  so kiko09:00
LaserJockLP *is* proprietary and so we do need to take any advantage they offer us to move our priorities along09:00
LaserJockI can't opensource it09:01
LaserJockI'd love to see progress there, but for now I'm not worrying about it so much09:01
ScottKUnderstand.  It just limits what we can do.09:01
LaserJockwhat I *can* do is pass along to LP devs our need for better communication09:01
LaserJockScottK: agreed09:01
LaserJockand try to work on getting us the best situation we can09:02
FujitsuHobbsee: The verb is affect, not effect!09:02
crimsunok, so to accomplish that, we should draw up aforementioned protocol, no?09:02
LaserJockso what I'm getting from this status mess is that we/me need a way to SOS LP09:02
crimsun(sponsorship, SRU among them)09:02
FujitsuIf we're going to get anywhere, we should.09:02
LaserJockand to give them realistic example workflows, etc. as crimsun has said09:03
LaserJockgive them a list of things we have to have working to do our work09:03
HobbseeFujitsu: i often get the two confused, as they both apply in different situations09:03
LaserJockone thing I'm interested in is if I could mark that "Triaged" bug as Critical09:04
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LaserJockeven if they downgrade it it would be interesting ;-)09:04
ScottKGo for it.09:04
LaserJockI'm tempted09:04
FujitsuLaserJock: And mark it as Triaged, as it has enough info to be fixed.09:04
LaserJockbut I don't want to piss anybody off just now09:05
ScottKWhat're they going to do, cut your pay?09:05
LaserJockFujitsu: lol09:05
FujitsuLaserJock: Are you actually able to change the importance?09:05
LaserJockFujitsu: I belive so09:05
ScottKEveryone say it together... Go LaserJock09:05
LaserJockI could move it to Critical and then back to High to give them a little ping09:06
FujitsuThat might work.09:06
ScottKJust mark it critical and leave it.09:06
FujitsuScottK: kiko will eat him.09:06
ScottKWhy, it's data loss and it's impacting Tribe 2 release.  I'd say it qualifies.09:06
Fujitsukiko is the only one allowed to appoint bugs for cherrypicking.09:07
Hobbseethere are workarounds, of course09:07
Hobbseeif anyone's got serious wishes to work on LP, they can probably get access to the code, btw.09:07
FujitsuWorkarounds are the LP way.09:07
Hobbseeif they're known within the community, etc.09:08
Hobbsee(under a NDA)09:08
FujitsuYay, NDAs.09:08
Hobbseewell, yeah.09:09
=== ScottK only does NDAs for stuff I'm getting paid for.
AndyPNDAs are very chic, even kernel driver devs are wearing them these days09:10
FujitsuI have a number for different companies for work, but they all have good reasons to keep their data secret.09:10
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HobbseeLaserJock: i'd imagine the wiki page was written by kiko, pre-sevilla.09:10
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HobbseeLaserJock: where he found out that the workflow was different to what he thought09:11
crimsunf login --save-after-login09:11
FujitsuI agree with crimsun.09:11
ScottKIt's easy enough to see who worked on it. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugWorkflow?action=info09:12
LaserJocklol, I did it ;-)09:13
LaserJockok, there you guys go09:14
LaserJockif my head rolls, it's all your fault ;-)09:14
ScottKLaserJock: If they didn't want you to push that button, they shouldn't have given you the power.09:14
LaserJockwell, I'm not sure how many of them know I have it ;-)09:15
LaserJockI don't want to ruin a good thing, hehe09:15
=== ScottK watches an big empty space open up around LaserJock.
LaserJockI *was* getting some private emails, but we got that worked out09:15
=== ScottK is out of steam and going to bed.
LaserJockprivate bugmails that is09:15
=== Fujitsu watches the strike team being dispatched to LaserJock's.
ScottKGood night everyone.  It's been an interesting evening.09:16
FujitsuNight, ScottK.09:16
LaserJockI'm out too09:16
LaserJockthanks ScottK and Fujitsu 09:16
LaserJockand crimsun and everybody else09:16
LaserJockit's been fruitful09:16
ScottKNo problem.09:16
AndyPg'night ScottK and LaserJock 09:16
LaserJockhopefully I can get something done this next week09:16
FujitsuNight LaserJock09:16
FujitsuIt has been.09:16
ScottKBeing persistent and argumentative are two of my strong points.09:16
HobbseeLaserJock: you werent supposed to admit to that :P09:16
Hobbseenight LaserJock 09:16
AndyPwell i'm glad that wasn't brought up at a motu meeting, the minutes would have been huge09:19
FujitsuAndyP: Heheh.09:20
FujitsuClose to 4 hours.09:20
Hobbseestill not sure how much was acheieved, without matt revell here.09:21
FujitsuIt would have been nice to have him and perhaps kiko here.09:21
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Hobbseetrue.  but it's sunday09:22
FujitsuWell, yes.09:22
TheMusoWhat have I just missed/09:23
FujitsuOver 1000 lines of LP ranting.09:23
HobbseeTheMuso: a long rant about launchpad09:23
RAOFOver a breathtaking 4 hour stint :)09:24
jussi01long? dont you mean ginormous?09:24
TheMusoOk, sounds like I haven't missed much then.09:24
RAOFSurely this is the perfect time to whip out "gargantuan" :)09:24
jussi01lol RAOF09:24
FujitsuTheMuso: It there was a bit of useful stuff in there. Not enough to be worth going through the logs, though.09:28
FujitsuWhere'd that `It' come from?09:29
=== RAOF picks up the box of articles he left lying around
=== Fujitsu has been using compiz all day. It's rather pretty.
RAOFIt is, isn't it.09:30
RAOFThe big question is: do you also find it useful?09:30
crimsunScreen 0: not direct rendering capable.09:31
crimsunno.  I don't find it useful.09:31
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FujitsuThe translucency changing can be, if you want to check something behind.09:31
FujitsuThe writing on the screen in fire... well, I'm sure I don't need to go over the reasons for that being useful.09:31
AndyPthe marketing folks find it very useful09:32
RAOFI'm learning to love "close windows in scale with RMB"09:32
FujitsuI can't seem to get that working.09:33
RAOFAndyP: Yeah, I can imagine.  It is extremely shiny09:33
RAOFFujitsu: It's the "scale addons" plugin, it might not be enabled by default?09:33
=== TheMuso looks forward to compiz powering good screen magnification for accessibility.
FujitsuRAOF: Noted, but I have that turned on.09:34
FujitsuTheMuso: It already does that. Super+scroll works well.09:34
TheMusoFujitsu: Well better integration with accessibility technologies09:37
RAOFFujitsu: Oh, sorry, it's middle-mouse-button to close windows in scale.  RMB should zoom them to the centre.09:37
RAOFIf neither of these work, bug amaranth :)09:38
=== Fujitsu graffitis his screen with fire.
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=== AndyP wonders if anyone's done a compiz-esque version of xpenguins yet
=== RAOF wonders what xpenguins does.
AndyPwould be funny to have 3D penguins waddling all over your cube09:44
TheMusoIMO compiz by default is a bad idea. Waste of resources.09:45
RAOFWhat resources?09:45
RAOFDeveloper resources?09:45
Treenaksthe scarce gpu resources!09:45
TheMusographics/memory resources?09:45
AndyPRAOF: basically it animates penguins floating down and landing on your windows and waddling around... pure gimmick09:45
crimsunTreenaks: do either model=3stack or model=5stack work?09:45
jussi01!info xpenguins09:46
ubotuxpenguins: little penguins walk on your windows. In component universe, is optional. Version 2.2-4 (feisty), package size 218 kB, installed size 1316 kB09:46
Treenakscrimsun: for what?09:46
crimsunTreenaks: for said laptop.  I've been asked to query you regarding that change.09:46
Treenakscrimsun: Oh you mean the intel-hda thing?09:46
RAOFTheMuso: But the graphics resources are currently going to waste almost all the time :)09:46
Treenaksthat's not a laptop :)09:46
crimsunTreenaks: ok, but the question remains.09:47
RAOFLike RAM, it's only a waste if you don't use it :)09:47
TheMusoRAOF: What about keeping power usage down?09:47
crimsunI disable DRI according to linuxpowertop.org's recommendations.09:47
RAOFTheMuso: Ok, that is an issue.09:48
RAOFHowever, I personally don't see much of a difference in power consumption metacity/compiz09:48
Treenakscrimsun: 3stack works09:48
crimsunTreenaks: and the latter (5stack)?09:49
Treenakscrimsun: so does 5stack09:49
crimsunok, do you have a spdif?09:49
crimsunwhat's your physical jack layout?09:50
Treenakscrimsun: a stereo jack + mic jack on the front panel.. and some stuff at the back panel09:52
Treenakscrimsun: (line out/line in/mic I think, switchable to surround output)09:52
crimsunok, 3stack09:53
Treenaks(maybe an extra jack on the back panel for LFE or Center, but I can't see the machine atm)09:53
crimsunok, please let me know when you can see it.09:53
TreenaksOK, that'll be tomorrow then, sorry09:53
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Treenakscrimsun: I've found the user's manual PDF at dell.com09:58
Treenakscrimsun: front panel: headphone/mic; back panel: 5 sound connectors09:58
DktrKranzcould you please have a look at http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5709?09:59
crimsunTreenaks: ok, then 5stack.  I'll fix it upstream, thanks.09:59
=== TheMuso just looked in the desktop effects preferences pain, and only saw two options. I thought compiz could do more.
Treenakscrimsun: (this is a Dell Dimension 9150, for future reference)09:59
RAOFTheMuso: It can.  You're after "compizconfig-settings-manager", I believe10:00
crimsunTreenaks: ok.  (Model's unimportant but SSID is important.)10:00
RAOFTheMuso: If you run it, you'll see why it's not the default interface :)10:00
Treenakscrimsun: where do I find that? :)10:00
crimsunTreenaks: lspci -nv|grep 0403 -A110:00
TheMusoRAOF: Right.10:00
Treenaks00:1b.0 0403: 8086:27d8 (rev 01) Subsystem: 1028:01d110:00
crimsunright, 0x102801d110:01
TreenaksRAOF: ccsm "crashes" (apport pops up; program continues to run in "broken" state) all the time for me, and can't set half of the settings10:02
RAOFTreenaks: Ah, yes.  Fixed in git.10:02
Treenaksgreat :)10:03
RAOF(In case anyone wonders, it's very important to actually maintain references to your objects if you want them to hang around)10:03
TreenaksRAOF: that, or strangle the garbage collector ;)10:04
TheMusoSo does anybody know how the compiz/beryl merge is going?10:04
RAOFIt's done.10:04
TheMusoWow that was quick.10:04
RAOFAnd has been done for ages, apart from stupid politics.10:04
Treenakswhat's it called now? :)10:04
TheMusoWhats the name of it now?10:04
AndyPcompiz fusion10:04
AndyPbit of a blah name10:05
=== RAOF was hanging out for just plain "compiz", but "fusion" will do.
RAOFAt least it's not "coral"10:05
AndyPwith all the distros calling it desktop effects, i would've thought they'd go somewhere like DFX10:06
RAOFYou don't know that particular community, obviously :)10:07
AndyPi've never been all that interested, mainly because my graphics hardware sucks... or drivers suck :)10:08
TreenaksI finally "fixed" my driver problem yesterday10:09
Treenaks(bug 20283)10:09
ubotuLaunchpad bug 20283 in xserver-xorg-video-ati "[X700]  Really bad sync on HP NW8240" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/2028310:09
RAOFAll of my driver bugs get worked around with XGL.10:09
Treenaksrunning some register dump tool after logging in resolves the problem, yay workarounds ;)10:09
TreenaksRAOF: I like my RANDR10:09
RAOFI like my resume-from-suspend :)10:10
TreenaksRAOF: sounds like Bugfixing Time!10:10
FujitsuI like my resume-from-suspend and RandR.10:10
RAOFTreenaks: Say hello to binary blob!10:10
TreenaksRAOF: say hello to radeon :)10:10
=== RAOF will try out the nouveau drivers sometime soon, but untill then...
RAOF...nvidia will continue to suck.  But suck less than fglrx.10:11
TreenaksRAOF: yes, that's why I'm so glad the radeon driver now works for my card (instead of fglrx)10:12
=== TheMuso realized the other day that ATI hardware doesn't have XVMC support. :S
TreenaksTheMuso: hardware, or drivers?10:12
TheMusoTreenaks: Sorry, drivers.10:13
Fujitsufglrx is really great. Starting a second X server on our main desktop causes the kernel to hang.10:13
TreenaksTheMuso: because afaik, they're working on it, just severely understaffed10:13
TheMusoThanks to ATI not even releasing specs for cards that have open source driver support.10:13
TheMusoWell I only have ATI hardware that is not supported by the binary drivers.10:13
TheMusoi.e one mobility 7500, and 9200.10:14
TheMusoSorry, two 9200s.10:14
TreenaksTheMuso: they're now doing nvidia/renouveau-like dumps on r500 cards10:14
TreenaksTheMuso: using a tool called "revenge"10:14
Treenakstirdc.livejournal.com :)10:14
TheMusoWell I don't think any of mine are R500 card10:14
TheMusoanyways, bbl.10:15
Treenaks9200 is r300, I think, 7500 is most likely r20010:15
RAOFMy partner's 9000 mobility works nicely out of the box.10:15
Treenaksso does my 9600 mobility :)10:16
TreenaksIt's just the FireGL V5000 Mobility that's broken :)10:16
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=== _guardian is now known as guardian
guardiananyone here knows if alsa 1.0.14 packages will be made available for feisty ? main repositories ? or do i have to enable backports ? or do i have to build from source ?11:00
Hobbseecrimsun: ^11:01
Hobbseecrimsun: wont be in -updates11:01
Hobbseeer, guardian, it wont be in -updates11:01
ajmitchpoor daniel11:02
guardianHobbsee: so i better try to build it from source than wait ?11:02
Hobbseemight be smart11:02
Hobbseemay possibly be in backports - but unlikely11:03
guardianwhat decides if something goes into backports or not ?11:04
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Hobbseea) if it builds, b) if it works c) if it breaks for people11:06
Hobbseeand alsa is a fiddly beast, and tends to break11:06
guardianok i see, well gonna try to build from source then, this is the only way i can have my emu1212m working so it's worth the hassle11:08
crimsunalsa-driver cannot be backported without backporting -lib as well.11:08
crimsunyour emu1212m likely won't work even with 1.0.1411:09
guardianit's reported to work though11:09
crimsun_some_ older models do11:09
Hobbseeguardian: FYI - crimsun is the alsagod.11:09
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guardianHobbsee: i don't argue people's knowledge :)11:09
crimsunand asking to backport alsa-driver currently would be silly; it hasn't even entered gutsy yet11:09
guardianok, well i was not aware of that 11:10
crimsun(officially: waiting on 1.0.14 to enter sid, which is blocked on i18n processing)11:10
StevenKcrimsun: And unofficially? :-P11:10
crimsunStevenK: killing the udev rule completely and letting kmix or mixer_applet2/pulseaudio handle the state restoration11:11
crimsunerr, missing "testing ..."11:11
crimsunguardian: plenty of people use 1.0.14 just fine with Ubuntu 7.04.  You're responsible for any breakage, however. :-)11:13
guardianbut since i never built alsa from source, i prefered looking for .debs :)11:13
crimsunit doesn't really matter.  You'd be overwriting most of /lib/modules/$(uname -r)/kernel/sound/11:14
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KmosHobbsee: hi :)12:17
ubotuLaunchpad bug 121924 in libapt-pkg-perl "Please sync libapt-pkg-perl 0.1.21 from Debian unstable" [Undecided,Incomplete]  12:17
Kmosso, i need to change sync to merge ?12:18
Kmosbut there is ubuntu patches ?12:18
HobbseeKmos: it may be a sync, it may be a merge.   you need to check12:22
KmosHobbsee: i don't see nothing on ubuntu changelog12:25
Kmosthat indicates to be a merge12:25
HobbseeKmos: then you need to say why each of the changes arent needed.12:27
HobbseeKmos: ie, "the only changes are rebuilds, and build deps x,y,z, which are included in debian" if they actually are12:27
Kmos+Build-Depends: perl (>= 5.8.0-6), debhelper (>> 3.0.18), libapt-pkg-dev (>= 0.7.0)12:28
geserthe only change is a version bump for libapt-pkg-dev12:28
Kmosso maybe isn't needed a merge12:31
geseras the last upload was done on Jun 19th bumping the build-depends, I'd at least ask mvo about his opinion on this12:32
geserbesides such a simple merge is done quick12:33
Hobbseedepends what the lowest versoin of apt is in gutsy12:33
Hobbseeer,sorry  libapt-pkg-dev12:33
geserlibapt-pkg-dev | 0.7.2ubuntu2 |12:33
geserI guess the bumped b-d was only needed to make sure that is was build with the recent apt12:34
Hobbseeand if that's the same, or higher, than what the debian build dep of it is12:34
geserthe b-d is still libapt-pkg-dev (>= in the debian package12:35
Kmosi'll subscribe mvo to the bug12:41
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StevenK# Accepted alsa-driver 1.0.14-1 (source all) Jordi Mallach01:20
StevenKHrm. I thought crimsun was waiting for that.01:20
=== persia thought it was officially waiting for entry to testing, and unofficially waiting for better pulse audio support to be added.
jerome_hello all01:24
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jerome_I need some help with one package i've submitted to revu01:24
jerome_I don't manage to get rid of the linda warning01:25
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jerome_I've added a python-soya.links file in debian/ to create a symlink01:25
jerome_and added a rule to the debian/rules file to delete the file 01:26
jerome_but as you can see it doesn't work01:26
jerome_anyone could help me ?01:26
persiajerome_: Does the version of python-soya currently distributed in the archive generate that linda warning?01:26
jerome_i will try01:26
jerome_yes and another warning that i don't have01:27
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persiajerome_: Great!  Someone else might still be able to help you resolve this, but if you are only asking for REVU of a package update (please make this more clear in your comments), and there are some bugs you cannot fix in a package, it may still be uploaded.  If you cannot solve it, you might want to open a bug against the package, reporting the issue.01:29
jerome_persia : ok01:30
persiajerome_: Also, as previously mentioned, please attach the diff of the debian directory to bug 117840, to make it easy to review the packaging changes vs. the upstream changes, and add a link from this bug to a REVU upload for the package.01:32
ubotuLaunchpad bug 117840 in soya "Wishlist: Update python-soya package" [Wishlist,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/11784001:32
jerome_persia : ok I will do that01:33
persiajerome_: Just to explain: the reason you want to do this is that most packages on REVU are new packages, and the upload policies for new packages are *much* more restrictive than the upload policies on package updates.  If a sponsor knows it is a package update, your work will likely be included more easily.01:35
jerome_persia : good to know :)01:36
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jerome_persia : to do a diff of the two debian folders, is this ok :01:37
jerome_diff ./soya-0.12/debian/ ./soya-0.13.1/debian/01:37
StevenKjerome_: There's a tool for this, called debdiff01:37
StevenKjerome_: debdiff <old dsc> <new dsc>01:37
persiajerome_: Better would be `diff -urN ./soya-0.12/debian/ ./soya-0.13.1/debian/`01:38
jerome_persia : ok01:38
tsmitheanyone able to review the ubuntustudio-* packages on revu?01:38
persiaStevenK: Using debdiff for package upstream updates requires use of filterdiff to clean up later, which I find hard to explain :(01:38
persiatsmithe: I'll take a look.  Did wired get an update as well?01:39
tsmitheno not yet01:39
tsmitheit's tricky....01:39
persiatsmithe: OK.  ubuntustudio-* only it is then.01:39
tsmithethanks a lot01:39
tsmithepersia, re the licence of -sounds, if the packaging is good, i would still like to give it a shot in the archive and let the admins decide re licence. is that feasible?01:41
jerome_persia : ok done01:43
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persiatsmithe: Yes, but it can be time consuming.  You might ask here (or in #ubuntu-devel if nobody steps forward) if someone knows if that license is OK first.  Here you'll get good advice, and in -devel, you might get an actual archive admin.01:43
tsmithecool - i'll do that01:43
persiajerome_: Thanks.  The comments look much better.  Could you please upload the diff to the bug report?  The pastebin servers regularly purge old posts, and it may be gone before someone looks closely (I'm not a good person to review python packaging).01:46
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jerome_persia : ok no problem01:47
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persiajerome_: Now, you'll want to request sponsorship as described in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing (near the bottom of "Preparing New Revisions"), and someone should look at it within the next couple days.01:54
=== tsmithe distutilsises asoundconf-ui
jerome_persia : well scott kitterman already had a first look01:56
persiajerome_: True, but it doesn't look like it was uploaded.  At this point, you'll want to get another look (perhaps from the same person) in order to get it uploaded (or more comments on why it should not be uploaded yet).01:58
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jerome_persia: ok i'm reading everything01:58
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tsmitheragh stupid connection02:03
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persiaDoes anyone have an opinion (or a link to a precedent) on mixing CC-SA and GPL?  I know CC-BY variants are not GPL compatible, but I'm not finding an opinion on only -SA from my initial search.02:40
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polopolohello, does someone know how I can add on a .deb join a group02:45
shawarmapolopolo: What do you mean?02:47
polopoloI want to package virtualbox, but I don know how I can someone join a group02:48
shawarmapolopolo: What do you mean by "join a group"? What kind of group?02:48
gnomefreakpolopolo: you dont need to join a group to build a package02:48
polopolognomefreak: I need to work the program good02:49
polopoloand no errors02:49
RainCTpolopolo: VirtualBox is already packaged02:49
polopoloon ubuntu?02:50
polopoloI want package the OSE on ubuntu02:50
gnomefreak!info virtualbox02:50
polopoloand it's not avalible02:50
ubotuPackage virtualbox does not exist in feisty, feisty-seveas02:50
gnomefreak!info virtualbox gutsy02:50
RainCTI have it on Feisty02:50
ubotuPackage virtualbox does not exist in gutsy02:50
gnomefreaki swore we had it02:50
jerome_it's from the repo of virtualbox02:51
polopolothe PUEL is avalible02:51
polopolothe OSE not02:51
polopoloand I want upload the OSE on debian unstable and ubuntu02:51
StevenKI seriously doubt it would get accepted.02:51
polopolobut can someone explain how to join a group with package02:52
RAOFYou don't.  First, you package (possibly with help from here).  Then, you put the source on REVU (and possibly mentors.debian.net, but that's debian).  Then you try and get someone to tell you what's wrong with it.02:53
RAOFRepeat, until there's nothing wrong with the package, and a MOTU can upload the package into Universe (or a sponsor can upload into Debian)02:54
RainCThe means have the user where it is installed joining the VirtualBox group02:54
RAOFAaaah.  That makes more sense :)02:55
RainCTwhen I installed it it created a 'vboxusers' group and added me to it02:55
persiaBlech.  Offering source as GPL, trademarking the name, and posting notice that the name cannot be used for modified versions is just annoying.02:55
RAOFIs that even gpl compatible?02:56
polopoloRAOF: there is a GPL vesrion02:57
RainCTpersia: well, Ubuntu does that too, in minor grade02:57
persiaRAOF: Yes.  I don't think it's GPLv3 compatible, but that's one of the things that annoys some people about GPLv3.02:57
RAOFFair enough.  I'm not very sure about those edges :)02:57
polopolooh, virtualbox OSE is GPL V202:57
RAOFStill.  Annoying, yes.02:57
polopoloSo no need (or not allowed) to upload it to ubuntu or debian?02:58
=== Havis [n=Havis@adsl-d56.87-197-178.t-com.sk] has joined #ubuntu-motu
persiaRainCT: Yes, but I think the situation is different for a distribution vs. a software package.02:58
Hobbseeyay, virtualbox!02:58
polopoloBut I wtill don know how to add the user to the virtualbox group on the computer02:59
RainCTI don't see the difference. if it wouldn't everybody could make a different version of it and say it's VirtualBox, when in fact _it is a modified version of VirtualBox_02:59
polopoloAnd if I can upload it to ubuntu02:59
RAOFRainCT: Part of the thing is: what constitutes a modified version?  Can we patch it to fix bugs?  To change behaviour to make it integrate better?03:00
polopoloNobody has the answer?03:00
persiaRAOF: On a completely different note, are you still working on 119254?  If so, you might have the background to properly redirect bug 121940 (I'm not sure if it should be dup'd or rejected (and am someone annoyed that neither "wontfix" nor "invalid" really apply).03:00
ubotuLaunchpad bug 121940 in kvm "KVM newest version request" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/12194003:00
RAOFpersia: I am, but have been somewhat delayed by marking.03:01
Hobbseeyay, marking.03:01
RAOFOh, hells yes.03:01
HobbseeRAOF: do my exam tomorrow.  thankyou.03:01
persiaRainCT: Most of the packages distributed in Debian or Ubuntu have at least small modifications to make them work better for us.  If we had to change all the names of all the software packages in the process, it would be very difficult for users to understand.03:01
polopoloOk, nobody has the answer, fine :(03:02
persiaRAOF: No worries: I just thought from your comments that 28 might need a little work before the sync (and don't have the hardware to evaluate it properly).03:02
RainCTah, yes, if it also applies to patches and such small stuff then yes, it's annoying03:03
RAOFpolopolo: The answer to your question?  Check out the kvm package; that creates a "kvm" group03:03
persiaRainCT: For a distribution, it's less bad: the branding is mostly just branding, so someone could copy all of Ubuntu, and maintain bug fixes to it without needing to rename things (users would still see "Ubuntu" in many places).03:04
RAOFpersia: No, it should be a straight sync + add epoch.  I need to (manually) check the ubuntu changes to the kvm-16 package, although I don't think there are any, bar the epoch.03:05
RainCTyes, Ubuntu allows to call it "Ubuntu Remix" iirc03:05
persiaRAOF: Doesn't it also require coordination with an updated kernel?03:06
polopolocreating a virtualbox package is difficault *slick*03:06
RainCT(off-topic: do you know of any program that allows you to minimize other programs to the notification bar?)03:06
RAOFNope.  kvm-28 works nicely with our current kernel.03:06
persiapolopolo: Please note that by packaging virtualbox OSE, you are generating modified source, for which you may not be able to use the virtualbox name.03:07
polopolobigger *slick*03:07
RAOF!!! Really?03:07
RainCTdoes it allow names derived from virtualbox?03:07
ubotuSorry, I don't know anything about really? - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi03:08
polopoloI think a gonna jumping03:08
persiaI'm not sure what is allowed.  The statement is only "if you choose to ship custom binaries and/or source code revisions of the product, InnoTek reserves the right to deny use of the trademark VirtualBox", which isn't very promising.03:09
RAOFI suggest the name IceBox :P03:10
polopoloWe talk about GPL2.0 right?03:10
persiapolopolo: http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Licensing_FAQ03:10
RainCTfor me this sounds like "you are allowed but if we don't like it we can ask you to rename it"03:10
polopoloI package virtualbox OSE and that is based on GPL2.003:10
RainCTI'd try mailing InnoTek to be sure of that, and in the case they say 'no' use a derivated name03:11
Q-FUNKwho would know about ACPI regressions in Feisty (compared to Edgy) and their workarounds?03:11
polopoloeven with GPL2.0?03:11
polopolocan't belive it03:12
persiaRainCT: Perhaps.  It could also mean "You are welcome to use this code for other purposes, but we don't want to support any virtualbox binaries we didn't build, so you can't call them virtualbox".03:12
persiapolopolo: Trademark law and Copyright law are different.03:12
polopoloSO virtualbox OSE is not based on http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/GPL03:13
polopolobut http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/VirtualBox_PUEL ?03:13
RainCTpolopolo: it's dual licensed03:14
RainCTyou can redistribute the GPL version but no the PUEL one03:14
polopolo@#@#$@, I stop with package that03:14
persiapolopolo: Being granted a license to use, modify, and distribute software under the GPL allows certain exceptions to Copyright law, but doesn't affect Trademark law.03:14
polopoloe-mail me the answer when the e-mail comes03:14
zorglu_q. what is the issue with shipping the PUEL ?03:14
polopoloI gonna package further with gverse03:15
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RainCTpolopolo: who has mailed them?03:18
polopoloBut now I know why firefox now named iceweasel :D03:18
polopoloyou, or not?03:18
RainCTno, should I?03:18
RainCTzorglu_:  The Personal Use and Evaluation License allows you to download the VirtualBox binaries for personal and academic use and for evaluation, but it does not give you the right to redistribute these binaries.03:18
zorglu_RainCT: ok, this is indeed very clear :)03:19
polopolo[15:11]  <RainCT> I'd try mailing InnoTek to be sure of that, and in the case they say 'no' use a derivated name03:19
RainCTthat was a suggestion03:19
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RainCTbut if no problem doing so if you want03:20
polopoloyou all say that virtualbox OSE uses things with PUEL inside?03:20
zorglu_RainCT: just in case, virtualbox people are on irc and have been very nice everytime i talked to them. so maybe chatting with them could help03:21
persiapolopolo: No.  Virtualbox OSE is indeed completely GPLv2.  It's just that the name "virtualbox" is trademarked, and there isn't a clear grant of trademark for redistribution.03:21
persiaumm...  clear grant of license on the trademark for redistribution.03:21
polopolonow I really understand it really03:21
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zorglu_virtualbox channel with some people from inotek, #vbox03:23
RainCTI'm on #vbox-dev03:23
zorglu_cool then03:24
RainCTfound a InnoTek employer there03:24
persiaemployer?  employee?03:24
polopoloI join03:24
zorglu_innotek provides good sw to opensource, lets treat them as nicely as possible :)03:24
RainCT(*employee, sorry)03:25
=== persia notes that InnoTek has the right to collect monies for their software: it may be that they prefer the use of PUEL to encourage paid licensing for non-personal use.
RainCTbut the OSE is only allowed for Open Source projects, or?03:29
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polopoloI think not, it's only liniced with GPLV2.0, more not03:31
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RainCToops sorry, I've said nothing :P03:32
RainCTlapse, that was another program :P03:33
persiaRainCT: I think that restricting a GPL version of dual-licensed software to use within open source projects is a violation of the GPL.  It would be another violation for a closed source project to actually distribute anything based on the GPL version of something else under a license not compatible with the GPL, but there's no reason it couldn't be used internally by some organisation.03:36
=== persia points to the removal of linuxsampler from the Debian archive as precedent for this opinion.
=== RainCT looks at polopolo and Hobbsee on #vbox-dev
polopoloRainCT: so no make virtualbox?03:37
jussi01hello everyone03:37
persiaHi jussi0103:37
polopolojussi01: hello03:37
RainCTpolopolo: he said it's ok but he would prefer it they provide the package, or?03:37
shawarmapersia: The copyright holder of GPL software is free to release the exact same software under a more restrictive license.03:38
jussi01qq, if a program is no longer being developed can it be accepted into the repos?03:38
jussi01ie. http://qjoypad.sourceforge.net/03:38
jussi01hi persia polopolo03:38
persiashawarma: Absolutely, I just don't think that the copyright holder can restrict the use of the GPL version by either field of endeavour or by eventual end use (except requiring GPL compatible redistribution).03:38
persiajussi01: It's possible, but not encouraged (there needs to be a good reason, such as several active projects that depend on it, etc.).03:39
shawarmapersia: No, that wouldn't make any sense. You can't say it violates the GPL, though. They've just added an exception to the GPL.03:39
persiashawarma: I'm confused.  I thought exceptions to the GPL could only be used to grant more rights to the licensee, not to further restrict granted rights.03:40
jussi01persia: thank you. 03:41
Hobbseepolopolo: even better if they want to do it themselves03:41
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polopoloNo problem for me, as I say, I go further with package gverse03:41
persiajussi01: In this case, I'd like to recommend gizmod, which has an active upstream, and a candidate on REVU.  There's no GUI for it, but there is a nice python interface for configuration.03:42
Hobbseegizmod is being worked on by pricechild03:42
shawarmapersia: The GPL is just a license. If it's your software, you decide which license to release it under.03:43
PriceChildpersia, its in the queue, not just candidate on revu?03:43
persiaPriceChild: Yep, but most people can't download from the NEW queue, so it's not an ideal place to look for things :)03:44
PriceChildahh hehe gotcha03:44
=== shawarma takes off
polopolook next question: must I set confirmed on my name on bug #11777203:45
ubotuLaunchpad bug 117772 in Ubuntu "[needs-packaging]  gVerse" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/11777203:45
persiashawarma: I agree with that: I just didn't think one could call a license "GPL" if it was more restrictive due to the FSF licensing arrangements.03:45
persiapolopolo: I'd recommend "In Progress", if you're working on it.03:45
RAOFHey, where can I get the debian source to kvm-16-1?03:45
RainCTRAOF: http://packages.debian.org03:46
RAOFIt's an old version (current is kvm-28-4)03:46
polopolopersia: ok03:46
Hobbseebug #11173503:47
ubotuLaunchpad bug 111735 in svnmailer "Notifier: svnmailer.util.URLDecorator" [Undecided,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/11173503:47
persiaRAOF: http://snapshot.debian.net/ is usually helpful, but in this case, I suggest reverting http://patches.ubuntu.com/k/kvm/kvm_1:16-1ubuntu2.patch from the Ubuntu source.03:47
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RAOFMan, that's a big patch.03:52
polopoloand what gonna happen if the package in revu is approved but importfreeze is begon on gutsy?03:52
RAOFOh, because it's against kvm-2803:52
persiatsmithe: Are you strongly committed to native packages for the ubuntustudio packages?03:53
tsmithewell, i think it makes sense... don't you think?03:53
persiaRAOF: Hunt around patches.ubuntu.com: there might be an easier patch (I remember something about modular patches, but don't have a link).03:53
RAOFOh, crap.  There wasn't a kvm-16 package.  The most recent one before that was kvm-14.  We then packaged 2 new upstream versions.03:54
persiatsmithe: I don't like native packages, so I'm biased.  I'm especially wondering about ubuntustudio-sounds, as there appears to be an active upstream for the original source package (and I don't know how much it's been modified).03:54
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persiaRAOF: In that case, you'd do best to contact the last uploader - perhaps they can provide useful advice.03:55
tsmithepersia, i'm pretty ubuntustudio-sounds is a total rewrite of the upstream package: all that's the same is the sound files themselves03:56
RAOFpersia: Right.  Well, that's not getting done before I go to sleep :)03:56
RAOFbluefoxicy: Hanging out for your kernel-virtual-machine to work?03:57
bluefoxicyRAOF:  Desktop effects.03:57
RAOFOh, yeah.03:57
bluefoxicyEnabling under my account makes the window title bars vanish03:57
bluefoxicyIf I create a fresh user account and go enable desktop effects there, works perfectly.03:57
RAOFAwesome, stale config.03:58
bluefoxicywhat do I delete03:58
bluefoxicyI tried deleting ~/.compizconfig03:58
RAOFAlternatively, it's possible that you've built some compiz plugins before?03:58
bluefoxicyno, I just reinstalled feisty 5 minutes ago.03:58
bluefoxicyand compiz has never worked03:58
RAOFIt'd be in gconf.03:58
RAOFgconftool2 --recursive-unset /apps/compiz might do it03:58
StevenKTwitch. --recursive-unset03:59
StevenKEven the option sounds evil03:59
RAOFrm -r sounds better?03:59
StevenKCan't pipe that into gconf? :-P03:59
tsmitherargh.... bzr seems to have crapped up on me again03:59
bluefoxicyRAOF:  thanks.03:59
RAOFrm -r .gconf2, I believe :P03:59
=== tsmithe overwrites a branch, in the only hope of fixing
bluefoxicyRAOF:  There should be an "Attempt to fix errors" button that does that ;)04:00
tsmithethis is insanity gone mad04:00
RainCTshould a debdiff for the patch in bug #68620 be made?04:00
ubotuLaunchpad bug 68620 in gnome-system-monitor "gnome-system-monitor shows squashed key in resources graphs" [Low,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/6862004:00
persiatsmithe: I've just looked at upstream Borealis, and it doesn't seem to have any packaging.  How is this different from packaging other upstreams (aside from branding)?04:00
RAOFbluefoxicy: I believe the phrase is "patches welcome"04:00
bluefoxicyRAOF:  ;)04:00
RAOFbluefoxicy: Also, that's a pretty crazy "attempt to fix errors" action.  I'm not sure I'd apply such a patch, were I in a position to do so.04:01
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RAOFA better one would, of course, be to not crash on crazy config.04:02
RAOFBut that goes against the compiz way of ABI incompatibilities and crazy configs.04:02
=== RAOF is tired, and tired of marking. He doesn't really mean that.
tsmithepersia, i'm not sure. at the moment, my dsl is down below dial-up speeds, so getting down that 15 meg tarball to compare is a bit difficult. however, the tarball i'm looking at is only about 4.1 meg, so i'm guessing there is a bit of difference somewhere04:03
persiatsmithe: Quite a few of the sounds were dropped (causing the size reduction)  it just seems odd to me to have an upstream, but not use it.  This won't keep me from advocating (if appropriate), but doesn't match my understanding of regular practice.04:05
tsmitheok. i'm sure there was a reason to it, but i have only recently adopted the package, and the original packager is a bit busy with real life things for me to get in touch quickly :)04:06
persiatsmithe: No worries - just something to investigate.  The last package I saw that had significant similar source (a fork) was rejected by the archive admins at first pass, so you'll want to marshall your arguments in advance.04:08
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GamezBeCJHello everyone ... My first time here ...04:16
bluefoxicyhttp://youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ this is way more impressive than what I'm getting now04:16
persiaGamezBeCJ: Welcome!04:16
superm1Hi GamezBeCJ 04:16
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GamezBeCJUbuntu Beryl video in youtube is very impressive !04:33
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_MMA_bluefoxicy: Try: http://youtube.com/watch?v=E4Fbk52Mk1w HOWTO: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=481314&highlight=compiz+fusion My little screenshot: http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/7477/screenshotri7.png04:43
GamezBeCJI just installed ... it's beautiful ... 04:46
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bluefoxicyswitching metacity theme, crashing gnome-xchat04:51
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DarkMageZbluefoxicy, xchat is better :P04:53
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polopoloI gonna race on windows xp, bye all :D05:05
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Kmoscrimsun: are you there?05:58
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ScottKpersia: In general, putting a statement about copyright of Debian packaging is recommended, but it's not yet "Policy"06:20
persiaScottK: No?  I thought it was.  Thanks.06:20
ScottKpersia: It's not policy until it's published in an updated policy manual.06:21
=== persia needs to review the policy manual
ScottKpersia: Of course the policy manual by definition lags since it codifies policy in use, it doesn' t drive it.06:21
ScottKGotta run.06:22
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jussi01hmmm...anyone use the medibuntu repos? they seem to be down for me...06:44
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Adri2000jussi01: works for me. tell Sp4rKy if it doesn't work for you, he is responsible for medibuntu's servers.06:52
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jussi01Sp4rKy: Im getting 404's on all the medibuntu repos from  http://medibuntu.sos-sts.com07:03
mr_pouitjussi01: please use medibuntu.org (see http://www.medibuntu.org/repository.php) ;)07:06
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tobiasschul1i have a problem with dput07:18
tobiasschul1dput -f svn/jeliza_2.3.2-0ubuntu1_source.changes07:18
tobiasschul1Upload package to host revu07:18
tobiasschul1Checking Signature on .changes07:18
tobiasschul1gpg: Signature made Sun Jun 24 17:15:04 2007 UTC using DSA key ID C619E86707:18
tobiasschul1gpg: Good signature from "Tobias Schulz <tobischulz@arcor.de>"07:18
tobiasschul1Good signature on svn/jeliza_2.3.2-0ubuntu1_source.changes.07:18
tobiasschul1Checking Signature on .dsc07:18
tobiasschul1gpg: Signature made Sun Jun 24 17:15:00 2007 UTC using DSA key ID C619E86707:18
tobiasschul1gpg: Good signature from "Tobias Schulz <tobischulz@arcor.de>"07:18
tobiasschul1Good signature on svn/jeliza_2.3.2-0ubuntu1.dsc.07:18
tobiasschul1Package includes an .orig.tar.gz file although the debian revision suggests07:18
tobiasschul1that it might not be required. Multiple uploads of the .orig.tar.gz may be07:18
ubotupastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)07:18
tobiasschul1rejected by the upload queue management software.07:18
tobiasschul1Uploading to revu (via ftp to revu.tauware.de):07:19
tobiasschul1  jeliza_2.3.2-0ubuntu1.dsc:07:19
tobiasschul1Error '553 Could not create file.' during ftp transfer of jeliza_2.3.2-0ubuntu1.dsc07:19
tobiasschul1Note: This problem might be caused by files already existent on the server.07:19
tobiasschul1      For the official Debian upload queues, the dcut(1) utility can be used07:19
tobiasschul1      to remove stale files from unsuccessful uploads.07:19
man-ditobiasschul1: DONT DO THIS PLEASE07:19
=== tsmithe emphasises the please and the not
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tobiasschul1i was uploading the file before, but my computer has crashed07:21
tobiasschul1what to do?07:21
bluekujatobiasschul1, ping a REVU admin07:22
bluekujaand ask to have it removed07:22
tobiasschul1who is a revu admin? ^^07:22
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bluekujathey seems to be away, persia you can fix it?07:23
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bmmAny motu: ccbuild is looking for it's second advocate or comments to change it, please look at http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=568509:02
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bmmIs anybody still online here? Does my IRC work? Persia are you online?09:50
=== bmm thinks it's quiet, to quiet...
bmmthere is probably a meeting somewhere :-D09:51
Babybmm: I read u09:52
bmmAh, cool IRC is working then :-) Thanks, that's all I needed to know09:52
man-dibmm: its sunday, on sunday its normally quiet here09:54
man-dimore quiet then usual at least09:54
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bmmAh, then that's it. I just got back from a weekend away so I'm in for some packaging ;-)09:55
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icf7Is the debian policy manual binding for Ubuntu too?10:14
geserthere is no difference packagewise if you do a deb for Debian or Ubuntu10:16
icf7mmm ... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/CommonPackagingMistakes/ChangingTheOrigTarball contains examples of uscan usage, and http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-source.html#s-debianrules specifies that get-orig-source can be called from every directory (".. leaves it in cwd")10:19
icf7how do these two specifications fit? Is there a good example on how to use uscan/implement get-orig-source?10:20
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ScottKThe MOTU Meeting for Friday does not appear to be on the schedule for #ubuntu-meeting.  persia, where you taking care of that?10:39
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crimsunI've pinged -marketing to get it added to fridge.uc10:42
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Kmoscrimsun: bug 10484810:47
ubotuLaunchpad bug 104848 in hwdb-client "Bad english translation on hwdb-client" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/10484810:47
Kmoscheck this out10:47
crimsunI'm busy ATM>10:47
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nixternaladded the MOTU meeting to the Fridge10:58
nixternalno problem. Thanks for the +1 by the way!10:59
ScottKnixternal: I guess the quality of your sucking up has improved.11:00
crimsunoh crap, did I type '+' instead of '-'?  Damn, better amend that.11:00
nixternalfigures ;p11:00
coNP- + - = + ?11:00
crimsunnixternal: do most (subjective) KDE 3 apps have a Close or Quit pushbutton?11:01
crimsunScottK: ^ , too11:02
nixternalwhen you say subjective, you mean something like a small widget and not a full windowed app?11:02
nixternalerr, s/widget/applet11:02
crimsunnixternal: no, "subjective" above means "in your sampling of KDE 3 apps"11:03
crimsunI'm not sure there is a quantifiable method of determining "most" for everyone.11:03
nixternaloh...that would be a no, file->exit (alt+q), and the big X up top11:03
crimsunnixternal: ok, and do you generally use alt+q or the window manager's Close?11:04
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nixternaldepends in if I am at the keyboard or not really, but mostly, the X does it for me, or alt+f4/q11:04
crimsunok, so a Qt application generally would need to offer a File menu, too11:05
crimsunok, thanks.11:05
crimsunI'll adjust my app11:05
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crimsuncurrently I'm simplying relying on the window manager's Close11:05
nixternalcrimsun: if it is just somethin small that allows something like an enable/disable option, then you don't need the filemenu11:05
crimsunhowever, consistency within the environment is very important11:06
nixternala quit button and the X would be enough11:06
crimsunwell, my concern is whether "most" KDE 3 apps even offer a Quit pushbutton11:06
nixternalthere is/was a KDE GUI guide, but last I looked, it seemed a little outdated11:06
nixternalI am trying to think of one with a Quit button11:06
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crimsunnixternal: http://www.trilug.org/~crimsun/Screenshot.png11:09
crimsunnixternal: top right, Qt3.  Bottom right, Qt4.11:09
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nixternalcrimsun: that is about perfect..I think maybe an "OK" button?11:13
=== nixternal looks at some applets that are similar
crimsunnixternal: do most KDE 3 apps have an OK pushbutton?11:13
nixternalthe configuration windows typically do11:14
crimsunok, and this holds true in both KDE 3 and KDE 4?11:14
crimsunis the OK pushbutton always enabled/active?11:15
nixternalactually, in your case, since there is only one setting to apply, then maybe just an "OK" and a "Cancel"11:15
nixternallet me check with someone really quick11:15
nixternalOK is always enabled, y es11:15
crimsunerr, I'd rather be consistent with the KDE X UI11:15
crimsunif most configuration dialogs have Apply and Ok, then I need both pushbuttons11:15
crimsunif most only have Ok and Cancel, then I need those11:16
crimsunwhat I'm attempting to avoid is have this dialog do something completely different from, say, KMix dialog windows11:16
nixternalheh, config dialogs have "help", "defaults", "OK", "apply", and "cancel"11:16
nixternalbut those dialogs have more than 1 view for configuration as well11:17
icf7crimsun: Apply is "do the action, but don't close the window"11:17
crimsunok, "defaults" is not sensible in this case11:17
crimsunicf7: yes, that's its current semantics11:17
crimsunas implemented in displayqt[34] .py11:17
ScottKcrimsun: It looks reasonable to me.  Agree with icf7.  If you are going to close the window as well as apply, I think it should say OK, not Apply.11:18
crimsunScottK: I agree there, but I need to know if Ok _and_ Apply pushbuttons appear in _most_ windows11:18
ScottKcrimsun: I'll look around a bit.11:19
crimsunI shouldn't need a Help action; the app should be so straightforward that Help would be superfluous11:19
crimsunIMO the app is straightforward, but what do I know?  I do this junk all the time. ;)11:20
nixternalcrimsun: http://developer.kde.org/documentation/standards/kde/style/dialogs/simple.html11:20
crimsunThus, a non-debugger's perspective is vital11:20
nixternalso you would offer them the selection, and then just an OK button11:21
ScottKcrimsun: I just looked at several of the system settings type windows and they all had either Apply or OK depending on if they would close the window or not.11:21
ScottKcrimsun: I don't think that there is any application too trivial for Help.11:21
AndyPthe gnome sound prefs has a close button and making a selection applies the change immediately, but that's gnome11:22
superm1is there a way to make debconf think that a package isn't configured, so that next time another package gets installed, it is forced to run the postinst script again?11:22
superm1well i guess s/debconf/apt/11:22
crimsunAndyP: Toby's GTK+ 2 UI uses slightly different semantics.11:23
crimsunAndyP: His changes are active (written to ~/.asoundrc.asoundconf if appropriate) upon combobox change.11:23
crimsunI'm working with slightly different semantics, since I have to use Qt/KDE11:23
crimsunin this latter vein, I need at least an Apply which is only active upon combobox change11:24
nixternalcrimsun: when you are done, I would like to see your code for this app, there is something similar I would like to do as well...did you use Python or C++?11:24
crimsunnixternal: launchpad.net/asoundconf-ui.11:24
nixternalrock on11:24
crimsunPyQt3 and PyQt411:24
nixternalexactly what I wanted you to say11:24
crimsunmy branch is ~motu/trunk11:24
crimsunToby's is ~tsmithe/trunk11:24
crimsunScottK: what do you feel a Help action would add?11:25
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ScottKcrimsun: I'm not sure exactly since I haven't been following the details, but even though it seems obvious, it ought to say something about what the program does and perhaps something about how one might decide what selection to make.11:27
crimsunthere are ToolTips11:27
crimsunlike "Apply"'s is "Commit change"11:27
crimsunbut I'm not sure how to go about the latter suggestion of yours11:28
ScottKUp to you, but I don't think anything is too trivial for help.  11:28
ScottKI'm all about the theory, implementation is a detail left to you ;-)11:28
crimsunwell, I'm all for Help; I'm just having a difficult time seeing how it actually clarifies anything11:28
ScottKMaybe for your initial release have a help stub asking people to e-mail you with questions they were expecting to find an answer to in the help.11:29
crimsunthis is going to be even more fun when I try to fix GNOME's control-center mess11:29
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crimsunand it gets even _more_ fun when I have to explain that the change only takes effect for newly executed alsa apps11:30
crimsunbah, libglademm2.4 is still broken11:30
crimsunwell, thanks for input, everyone11:31
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athenawhat's the deal with package signing? whenever I build something, apt throws a gpg error11:53
icf7athena: Do you have a private key imported to gpg? Use a gpg frontend of your choice to verify it.11:54
athenaicf7, yes, I do11:54
athenawhen I run dpkg-buildpackage, it even askes me for my password at the end11:55
athenabut when I stick them in a local repository and try to apt-get them, apt says that they can't be authenticated11:55
icf7athena: This is fine.11:55
icf7athena: How should they? You must import the public ones first to authenticate them.11:56
geserthat are two different signatures11:56
geserthe signing at packaging building is used for uploading11:56
athenathen how do I sign them so that they can be downloaded?11:57
geserthe signature that apt checks is from the release file from the repository11:57
geserwhat do you use for your repository?11:57
athenauh, cp and vim11:58
geserand how do you generate the Packages file? with vim?11:58
minghuaathena: http://wiki.debian.org/SecureApt11:58
minghuaand I don't think it's an error, just a warning, which you can ignore11:59
athenayes, but I'd need --force-yes, which is not good to use in scripts11:59
gesercreate a release file with e.g. apt-ftparchive12:00
gesera create a detached signature for it12:00
geserbetter would be to use a repository software which does it for you12:01
athenaoh? is there anything light? 12:01
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RainCTgood night12:08
minghuaapt-get(1) man page says there is an "--allow-unauthenticated" option12:08
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minghuaI've never used it, but it looks like what you wanted instead of "--force-yes"12:08
TheMusoHey folks.12:08
minghuahello TheMuso12:08
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ScottKHello TheMuso12:13

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