/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/06/24/#ubuntu-motu.txt

AndyP	somerville32: persia said it was important to wipe debian/changelog because the upstream one was never released	12:16
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joejaxx	Good Evening All	12:40
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Fujitsu	Morning everyone.	12:57
Nafallo	morning Fujitsu	12:58
geser	Hi Fujitsu	12:58
Fujitsu	Hi Nafallo, geser.	12:59
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LaserJock	morning Fujitsu	01:11
Fujitsu	Hi LaserJock.	01:11
=== Fujitsu wonders when -changes will wake up again.
=== Fujitsu also wonders why everything depending on libgconfmm is now dieing with an undefined symbol error. That's not meant to happen, is i
Fujitsu	*is it?	01:13
LaserJock	hmm, is -changes dead? I hadn't really thought about it	01:13
Fujitsu	-changes died along with changelog-closes-bugs after the last LP rollout.	01:13
LaserJock	I'm 100% mutt now so email has been weird	01:14
LaserJock	I decided I didn't like IMAP	01:14
Fujitsu	Libraries are meant to change their soname when they drop symbols or similar, aren't they?	01:15
geser	if public symbols are dropped then the so-version should be changed	01:17
Fujitsu	Right. But libgconfmm didn't, so now everything depending on it is dead.	01:17
geser	:(	01:18
Fujitsu	What is the best thing to do? Bump the so version and rebuild everything, or just rebuild everything?	01:19
geser	rebuilding would fix it for now but partial upgrades were still broken, so the correct solution would be to bump the so version and rebuild	01:22
Fujitsu	Thought so.	01:23
Fujitsu	LaserJock can fix it with his newfound superpowers!	01:23
Fujitsu	Nyahah.	01:23
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geser	Hi persia	01:25
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persia	Hi geser	01:25
Fujitsu	Hi persia.	01:25
persia	hi Fujitsu	01:25
TheMuso	Hey folks.	01:26
Fujitsu	Hi TheMuso.	01:27
persia	Hi TheMuso	01:27
TheMuso	Hey persia.	01:27
TheMuso	You guys may be interested in knowing that I have set up a shared apt cache for all my sbuild instances.	01:27
Fujitsu	How're you doing it? Bind something over /var/cache/apt/archive?	01:28
TheMuso	Well its an NFS share, so just mounting it directly as NFS.	01:28
TheMuso	it seems to be working fine.	01:28
Fujitsu	Ah.	01:29
TheMuso	This is because I have sbuild set up on three boxes.	01:30
persia	Nifty.	01:30
TheMuso	And have a download quota	01:30
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minghua	TheMuso: what is the advantage of your solution over apt-proxy?	01:33
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TheMuso	minghua: I don't have to have custom sources.list files for all the sbuild/LVM instances I have.	01:35
TheMuso	And its a lot more trivial to set up IMO.	01:35
minghua	TheMuso: good point on custom repos	01:35
minghua	triviality depends on what you already have, I suppose	01:36
TheMuso	Yeah.	01:37
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TheMuso	c	01:43
TheMuso	ugh	01:43
persia	If debian/copyright is autogenerated by debian/rules, may it be removed in debian/rules clean:? I'd think that this would result in no debian/copyright from apt-get source packagename and would therefore be bad, but wanted to check before complaining.	02:03
minghua	if there is a debian/copyright.in, I don't see any problem removing debian/copyright in clean	02:05
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persia	minghua: For this package, there's a debian/copyright-files/ which contains some portions of the copyright, and a shell script to collect the remainder from various places in the source code.	02:07
AndyP	that sounds weird	02:15
LongPointyStick	that's...special	02:16
persia	AndyP: Yep. That's why I want other opinions :)	02:16
=== AndyP tackles another package with an upstream debian directory
persia	Well, I guess I'll go with the principal of minimal changes then (and not accept deletion of debian/copyright as a undocumented change in a debdiff).	02:23
=== LaserJock wonders what powers Fujitsu thinks he has
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TheMuso	cd /usr/include/	02:42
TheMuso	gah wrong terminal	02:43
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=== bluefoxicy notices Gutsy uses KVM 16, makes a bug requesting latest version (28 currently) before feature freeze.
persia	bluefoxicy: Were the issues reported with 28 mentioned at the bottom of the comment thread for bug 119254 resolved? While KVM needs work, I'm not sure a sync will be better.	03:06
ubotu	Launchpad bug 119254 in kvm "Fails to create KVM context on linux-image-2.6.22-6" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/119254	03:06
ScottK	Fujitsu: changelog-closes-bugs was working again for me ~20 hours ago.	03:10
bluefoxicy	persia: what issues?	03:11
bluefoxicy	black screen, I'm not sure what guest OS	03:11
bluefoxicy	I know with KVM24 I loaded operating systems and with 16 I load absolutely nothing	03:11
bluefoxicy	KVM16 is slower than straight emulation by a billion times ;)	03:11
bluefoxicy	and hangs barely into run.	03:11
bluefoxicy	KVM16 reminds me of bochs actually <.<	03:12
bluefoxicy	persia: but maybe a direct sync isn't the answer	03:12
Fujitsu	ScottK: They broke at the same time, but they're not both fixed.	03:15
=== Fujitsu notes that Compiz is doing strange stuff... when I set the number of desktops to 4, I get a plane rather than a cube. Any other value gives an appropriate shape.
ScottK	Fujitsu: OK. Just thought I'd mention that one of them was fixed. I'd rather have had them fix "Triaged" bugs not showing up in standard searches.	03:16
StevenK	Fujitsu: Desktop on a triangle?	03:17
StevenK	/dev/mapper/system-mirror 60G 60G 40K 100% /srv/mirror	03:20
StevenK	Humm.	03:20
persia	bluefoxicy: That's about it: 16 is definitely bad, and 28 (or similar) likely better. I'm just tempted to mark bug 121940 as invalid, as I'm not sure it will fix the various problems, and based on the KVM changelog, needs coordination with the kernel team.	03:20
ubotu	Launchpad bug 121940 in kvm "KVM newest version request" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/121940	03:20
StevenK	I think the time has come for me to stop mirroring edgy.	03:20
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TheMuso	1/aw Away	03:57
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Fujitsu	ScottK: Yeah, that pretty much makes Triaged useless for now.	04:31
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Fujitsu	StevenK: Or octagonal prism, or whatever.	04:31
Fujitsu	(my SSH session timed out and I didn't notice, hence the slow responses)	04:31
Fujitsu	Hm, why's desktop-effects our problem now?	04:37
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ScottK	Fujitsu: Are you referring to the compiz demotion?	04:45
ajmitch	Fujitsu: because it's redundant	04:46
Fujitsu	ScottK: compiz itself seems to remain in main.	04:46
ajmitch	see system->preferences->appearance	04:46
ScottK	Oh. I thought I saw some reference to it being demoted and the new merged bling would be in main.	04:47
ajmitch	th new merged bling is in main	04:47
ajmitch	compiz-compcomm-plugins-main \| 0.0.0+git20070612-0ubuntu1 \| http://nz.archive.ubuntu.com gutsy/universe Packages	04:48
ajmitch	that part is yet to be moved	04:48
ajmitch	hence the -main suffix :)	04:48
Fujitsu	compiz-fusion-plugins-* it is now.	04:50
ajmitch	yay	04:51
ajmitch	the virtual package not provided by anything?	04:52
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Fujitsu	william@irranat:~/MOTUing$ dpkg -L compiz-fusion-plugins-main \| wc -l	04:55
Fujitsu	73	04:55
Fujitsu	Looks fairly real to me.	04:55
Fujitsu	Can anyone make sense of bug #120152?	04:57
ubotu	Launchpad bug 120152 in archivemail ""Permission Denied" when archiving from /var/mail directory" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/120152	04:57
=== ScottK looks
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ScottK	Fujitsu: Nice how he attaches a new copy of the program as a "patch"	04:59
Fujitsu	That's what I thought.	04:59
Fujitsu	It might have been easier to work out what the heck he was talking about if there was a patch/	04:59
=== Fujitsu uses Won't Fix for the first time.
ScottK	Fujitsu: I can guess what he might mean, but that sounds reasonable.	05:03
Fujitsu	What's he saying? That the user running archivemail can't read root's mailbox? That sounds like a correct behaviour.	05:04
ajmitch	No candidate version found for compiz-fusion-plugins-main	05:04
ScottK	Fujitsu: I think he's saying if a root user runs archivemail it changes the permissions so the regular user can't read it anymore.	05:05
StevenK	ajmitch: How laggy is nz.archive? It's even on my local mirror.	05:05
Fujitsu	Ahh.	05:05
ScottK	StevenK: Probably slowed by the snow.	05:06
ajmitch	StevenK: it's a little odd, since I'm pulling from both nz.a.u.c & a.u.c	05:06
=== ajmitch even synced his local mirror yesterday
=== Fujitsu synced his a few hours ago.
Fujitsu	That's probably why I've got the new compiz-fusion crack!	05:07
ajmitch	lucky you!	05:07
Fujitsu	Does this mean we can kill off beryl soon?	05:07
ajmitch	please	05:07
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=== ajmitch is currently waiting for debmirror to finish grabbing source crack
Fujitsu	Oh yay, let's request that a Tcl/Tk application use GNOME file dialogs.	05:08
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Burgundavia	we could just kill tcl/tk	05:12
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=== ScottK files a bug against LP for Triaged not showing up in standard searches...
Fujitsu	ScottK: Already done.	05:25
Fujitsu	Marked High, not Critical, for some stupid reason.	05:25
Fujitsu	Bug #121636	05:26
ubotu	Launchpad bug 121636 in malone "when a bug is marked as triaged it disappears" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/121636	05:26
ScottK	Fujitsu: I just hit send. I'll dupe mine to that one.	05:26
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Fujitsu	It's quite ironic, considering what Triaged is meant to be used for.	05:33
ScottK	Fujitsu: I suspect it's symptomatic of the FUBAR nature of that entire set of changes. Whoever designed (I use the word losely) it had one very narrow perspective on the work flow and got very little detailed input. After all, once a bug is "Triaged" triagers don't need to see it anymore because they are done.	05:38
ScottK	Not that I'm bitter or anything.	05:38
ScottK	I guess that should be loosely and not losely...	05:39
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Burgundavia	ScottK: that person would be Henrik, I think	05:46
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ScottK	Burgundavia: The impression I had was he heard about it at the last minute, but I don't know, nor do I really care. It's symptomatic of the problems in close source proprietary development processes.	05:48
ScottK	Whoever messed up, it isn't really their fault. It's a fundamental process issue.	05:48
Burgundavia	I agree	05:48
ScottK	You can't develop something useful to the community in isolation from the community.	05:48
Burgundavia	raise it at the next Tech Board	05:49
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ScottK	Burgundavia: There's really no point. The will open source LP when/if Canonical wants to. Ubuntu's use of proprietary tools is a significant negative in my book, but not one (yet) that outweighs Ubuntu's advantages.	05:50
ScottK	Oops	05:50
ScottK	The/They	05:50
Burgundavia	ScottK: you can raise the issue of process and suggest some solutions, however	05:50
ScottK	Burgundavia: The only real solution is to open up LP and they're very clear that's not in the cards.	05:51
ScottK	As long as it's developed in a back room we'll just get told to ignore the man behind the curtain.	05:52
Burgundavia	given the operating constraints, you can fix certain things	05:52
=== Fujitsu hasn't dared to participate in a discussion like this recently.
ScottK	Except we already have stuff like an official MOTU-LP liaison and he wasn't consulted.	05:52
=== ScottK is never reluctant to open his mouth (I know I didn't need to tell you that).
Fujitsu	I used to not be, then I got a lot of important people annoyed.	05:53
=== Fujitsu engraves `WTF' into bug #119469
ubotu	Launchpad bug 119469 in firefox-launchpad-plugin "all of the previous bugs, plus malformed line 40" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/119469	05:54
ScottK	Fujitsu: Just mark it Triaged. That'll take care of it.	05:55
Fujitsu	Yeah, true.	05:55
Fujitsu	And why is gutsy-changes still screwed? How'd they manage to break changelog-closes-bugs? {sync,backport}-source? Aren't they meant to have some tests?	05:56
ScottK	Burgundavia: Given the operating constraints there's very little that can be done to fix things on this side of the interface. LP is a black box we can't see into. It's really up to them. If I thought there was something I could do that would make a difference, I'd be glad to go to the tech board, I just don't see the point.	05:56
ScottK	Fujitsu: Trust them. They know what they are doing (no need to open source this project yet).	05:57
Fujitsu	ScottK: I think this is how a lot of people feel, but you're the only one who is particularly vocal about it at the moment. Good to see somebody has taken on my old task!	05:57
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ScottK	Burgundavia: Or to put it differently, if someone wants me to invest my time in making a proprietary program better, I have a consulting rate for that.	06:07
joejaxx	ScottK: you do not think of Launchpad as a service?	06:12
joejaxx	:P	06:12
ScottK	joejaxx: No. I think of it as a critical part of the toolchain of the Linux distribution I use.	06:13
joejaxx	interesting	06:14
ScottK	Building free software on a proprietary toolset is not a point of comfort for me.	06:17
ScottK	It's why I use DaD instead of MoM for merges even though the later is more mature.	06:17
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Burgundavia	joejaxx: I believe LP should be Free. period	06:32
ScottK	Personally, I've yet to see any arguments for keeping it proprietary that make sense to me.	06:32
Burgundavia	Ubuntu is "just a service"	06:33
Fujitsu	I'm sure most here know my opinion on the subject.	06:34
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ScottK	In that case, I should just quit working on making their service better.	06:35
Flannel	ScottK: did you see the comment from sabdfl about his reasonings?	06:35
Fujitsu	The problem is that Ubuntu has benefits that outweigh the downside (ie. non-free infrastructure). It's a really neat trap.	06:36
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ScottK	Flannel: I've seen comments that are going into the LP FAQ - probably the same. They don't make sense to me.	06:36
ScottK	+1 for what Fujitsu said.	06:36
Flannel	ScottK: the ones about anti-balkanization?	06:36
nixternal	alcohol and hacking do not mix!	06:37
ScottK	Yep.	06:37
ScottK	to both of you.	06:37
ScottK	nixternal: That doesn't help your MOTU application any.	06:37
Fujitsu	ScottK: Hahahah.	06:37
Fujitsu	!nixternal	06:37
ubotu	Oh no! The pointy-clicky Vista lover has arrived! He's rumoured to be giving out free money, too!	06:37
nixternal	well, where do I begin...Debian packaging talk, GPL talk, Ubuntu talk....and lots of home brewed and micro brewed beer..BarCamp is some good stuff	06:38
Flannel	ScottK: what about the centralization argument doesn't make sense?	06:38
ScottK	Flannel: If he's worried about lots of things called Launchpad running around, he can stop that with trademark. I see no difference if an upstream that we link to runs Bugzilla or another isntance of LP.	06:38
Burgundavia	Flannel: the argument is bullsh*t	06:38
ScottK	isntance/instance	06:39
Flannel	ScottK: He's not worried about thename, he's arguing that if you have LOTS of LPs, you lose the benefit of integration.	06:39
Fujitsu	The argument is a little valid. They don't want anybody running Bugzilla or their own LP. They want everyone to use their LP.	06:39
ScottK	Flannel: So. If there is benifit in integration, people will run on Canonical's instance of LP. If he's wrong, they won't. No need to make it proprietary if the benifit is real.	06:40
nixternal	gotta remember, Sourceforge is not proprietary/non-free now as well...so LP isn't alone which I find odd	06:40
nixternal	s/not/now	06:40
Fujitsu	Very true.	06:40
Fujitsu	s/benifit/benefit/g	06:40
Flannel	ScottK: his argument is that it needs to achive critical mass for the benefits to be apparent. Beofre that point, people won't want to hassle with the centralization, even if in the long run it's more cost effective	06:41
Fujitsu	He won't achieve critical mass with it non-free.	06:41
Fujitsu	Not a chance.	06:41
nixternal	code.google.com (Chris DiLoser) says the reason they created code.google.com is not to replace Sourceforge but to have a free system that is similar...yet Google never made it free	06:41
ScottK	Flannel: As long as it's proprietary, there is a 0% chance of me hosting a project on it.	06:41
nixternal	I was talking to Ben Sussman today about it	06:42
ScottK	Flannel: Since I package my stuff for Ubuntu, I can see actual benifit to being in the same infrastructure and using the tools, but the proprietariness is to big a negative.	06:43
Flannel	ScottK: I see where you're coming from. I don't think I have an opinion on it personally. I was just wondering what your POV was.	06:43
Fujitsu	nixternal: Well, that's similar to LP, but Canonical isn't quite as evil.	06:43
nixternal	"yet?"	06:44
nixternal	;)	06:44
Fujitsu	That was implied.	06:44
ScottK	Right.	06:44
nixternal	hehe	06:44
nixternal	well, all day I heard that "Ubuntu is going to sign a deal as well, but they will sugar coat it"	06:44
ScottK	I've already decided that my business is to important to accept the business risk of using proprietary tools.	06:44
nixternal	and I got bitchy with a few people who were making those statements while using "windows"	06:45
nixternal	people bringing Microsoft products to an open source party/event...well they need to swim with the fishies :)	06:46
nixternal	then again, they could get online, network manager was once again hosing me with gutsy	06:46
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ScottK	That's what you get for running Gutsy.	06:46
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nixternal	yup	06:46
=== ScottK has two hard drives for the laptop. One is always stable.
=== Fujitsu runs Gutsy because the laptop isn't overly critical, and it's good practice to fix it if it breaks.
=== ScottK still has Feisty on the development drive, but is about ready to dist-upgrade it.
=== ScottK still runs Dapper on his desktop.
Burgundavia	nixternal: where were you?	06:49
ScottK	Burgundavia: Vista users group.	06:50
nixternal	BarCamp Chicago	06:50
imbrandon	i just run windows 3.11 and forget about it all	06:50
nixternal	hahahaha	06:50
nixternal	stop lying, you dos lover!	06:50
Burgundavia	ahh, interesting	06:51
Burgundavia	so people figure Ubuntu is going to sign a deal, eh?	06:51
Burgundavia	I think, even if Mark wanted to, he cannot, due to the optics	06:51
nixternal	most of them Google employees	06:51
nixternal	which I called all but 1 idiots	06:51
ScottK	optics?	06:51
nixternal	Ben Sussman is cool, the rest are morons	06:51
nixternal	I am like you guys use Ubuntu, call it Goobuntu or some garbage, make all kinds of changes, yet don't share them...	06:52
imbrandon	nixternal, i've seen it, the only changes they make are artwork	06:52
nixternal	I seen it tonight...quite more than artwork	06:52
imbrandon	pre-dapper they had some ltsp kernel patches	06:52
nixternal	Ben uses it on his IBM lappy	06:52
imbrandon	then thats Ben's customizations, i have personaly b ooted to it from a pxe boot to my lappy at googleplex, the default boot is only artwork changes	06:53
nixternal	it was what he had on a CD...he showed some cook SVN stuff him and a few others have done there as well	06:54
nixternal	s/cook/cool	06:54
=== ScottK thought is was Chicago slang.
nixternal	heh	06:54
nixternal	Chicago homebrewed beer	06:54
imbrandon	http://images.imbrandon.com/lolcats/lolcatsdotcomib5v9oe8urvsgmh0.jpg	06:55
imbrandon	bwhahaha	06:55
nixternal	hahah, that is great	06:55
imbrandon	nix if it was on a CD its far from "official" goobuntu, goobuntu is ONLY pxeboot or install from pxeboot	06:55
nixternal	12 of 21 is better	06:55
nixternal	ahhh, he was talking about pxeboot	06:55
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imbrandon	he probably just rolled a goobuntu branded custom cd, not hard but not what most of them run anyhow	06:56
nixternal	he runs Kubuntu mainly, but was showing off some of the stuff Google Chicago is working on..the SVN stuff was the coolest	06:58
imbrandon	:)	06:58
Fujitsu	What did they do with it?	06:58
Burgundavia	what sort of SVN stuff?	06:58
nixternal	hell, the top 3 SVN devs all work Google Chicago now	06:58
=== imbrandon goes back to rolling a pr0n-buntu
imbrandon	lol j/k	06:58
nixternal	imbrandon: just use PCLinuxOS :)	06:58
imbrandon	hahah	06:58
imbrandon	no way	06:58
Fujitsu	No, just use warty.	06:58
nixternal	dude, it is the perfect LivePr0nCD	06:59
imbrandon	thats art not pr0n, i mean real pr0n	06:59
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nixternal	localized history stuff, some of the good things from other projects like Monotone, Mercurial, Git, Darcs and such	07:00
nixternal	we have a picture of the SVN god with a Bazaar dev :)	07:00
RAOF	What, so svn might not suck at merging sometime?	07:01
nixternal	RAOF: exactly a point he talked about	07:01
nixternal	he even said the best right now is Mercurial	07:01
Fujitsu	Impossible. Sucky merging is an inherent SVN thing... it just wouldn't be SVN without it.	07:02
nixternal	hehe, true, we wouldn't know what to do if it didn't suck	07:02
nixternal	all these years of learning how to hack your way around the suckiness	07:02
RAOF	I've tried to merge precisely one svn branch, and it was a nightmare	07:03
nixternal	I got lucky once, with an SVN merge that is	07:03
RAOF	Because I had foolishly moved files around, no knowing that SVN would chuck a screaming hissy fit.	07:03
nixternal	oh ya	07:04
nixternal	or even delete them with rm -rf and have it go "wft did it go"	07:04
imbrandon	wtf did it go, classic	07:04
RAOF	So, my svn merging is now done with bzr-svn, which works :)	07:05
Fujitsu	bzr's merging it good.	07:06
Fujitsu	Well, anything is good compared to Subversion.	07:06
RAOF	Indeed. Manually applying diffs is good, compared to svn.	07:06
Fujitsu	That's what I do.	07:06
RAOF	That's what I ended up doing, yeah.	07:07
=== Fujitsu notes that the LP discussion died out.
RAOF	So, on further inspection, I think the mplayer-use-compiz patch needs reworking before it is in any way acceptable to upstream.	07:08
ScottK	Fujitsu: Hard to have much of an argument when we all pretty much agree.	07:09
Fujitsu	True.	07:09
nixternal	Fujitsu: it seems to always die out, because we end up saying the same thing...for 2 years they have been planning on open sourcing it when it was "finished"	07:09
=== ScottK doesn't expect it.
Fujitsu	Right. And then we just wait. And wait.	07:09
nixternal	only thing I have seen take 2+ years to finish was Windows	07:09
Fujitsu	And wait.	07:09
Fujitsu	nixternal: Heheh.	07:09
=== ScottK just counts it as a cost of using Ubuntu.
=== ScottK also hopes if there are any CC members present (cough Burgundavia) they are taking notes.
nixternal	registering a project is easier in code.google.com and sourceforge than LP is...LP has a bunch of confusing mumbo jumbo	07:10
=== Fujitsu somehow incites active opposition to LP.
Fujitsu	Hah, the CC won't have any power over that.	07:10
ScottK	Fujitsu: You didn't start it this time.	07:10
nixternal	ScottK: I think Corey has hounded them enough on the aspect...you can guarantee that one!	07:10
Burgundavia	wah?	07:11
ScottK	Fujitsu: No, no one outside Canonical does, but I think it's important that sabdfl continue to hear that the community (at least us anyway) haven't rolled over and gotten happy with the situation.	07:11
Burgundavia	I had an interesting argument with jono and Riched while in Sevilla	07:11
Burgundavia	about 10 of us went out for dinner and for about half the meal, only the three of us were talking	07:12
Fujitsu	I'm sure there are a few of Canonical people watching us in here.	07:12
Fujitsu	s/ of//	07:12
nixternal	I would have loved to have been there for that one..it seems the Canonical people have no problem defending the actions	07:12
Fujitsu	Speaking of jono, I haven't seem him around much lately.	07:12
nixternal	I just read his blog, said he is in California for FooCamp	07:12
=== jussi01 [n=jussi@a81-197-38-57.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #ubuntu-motu
joejaxx	Hello All	07:13
Burgundavia	I raised the issue of LP going away like bitkeeper did	07:13
joejaxx	hello jussi01	07:13
nixternal	hehe, bitkeeper rocked	07:13
Burgundavia	and was told to not worry and that I shoudl "just trust Mark":	07:13
Fujitsu	Burgundavia: How'd that go?	07:13
Fujitsu	Gaaaaah.	07:13
Fujitsu	Trusting Mark doesn't last for more than a couple of years.	07:13
nixternal	funny thing though, everyone at the even tonight think Mark is the next great thing for open source and free software	07:14
Fujitsu	He probably is.	07:14
nixternal	s/even/event	07:14
nixternal	the FSF guys even said that...the FSF guys said that RMS is just to extreme and has been preaching the same thing on a lot of dead ears for 20 years now	07:15
jussi01	hi joejaxx	07:16
=== jussi01 [n=jussi@a81-197-38-57.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #ubuntu-motu
AndyP	i've been wondering how canonical is going to make money from launchpad	07:16
Burgundavia	I raised the issue that Mark does get bored	07:16
=== LaserJock notes he missed some good LP ranting but is too lazy to read the backlog
Burgundavia	and was "is there any sign of that?'	07:17
Burgundavia	?"	07:17
Fujitsu	AndyP: Sell the service to the hordes of distributions that are clamouring to use it.	07:17
Burgundavia	basically I was patronized by Jono and Riched and it pissed me off	07:17
Fujitsu	LaserJock: Aw...	07:17
joejaxx	LaserJock: we should create a summarizer script for you :P	07:18
AndyP	the plan seems to be: keep LP closed source -> get everyone using launchpad -> ??? -> profit!	07:18
Fujitsu	Word's AutoSummarise!	07:18
joejaxx	autmatically detects certain keywords	07:18
Fujitsu	AndyP: Right. He's obviously a /. fan.	07:18
joejaxx	Fujitsu: :P	07:18
Burgundavia	I think they are thinking of running LP ala Collab.net style	07:18
Burgundavia	for internal dev teams	07:18
ScottK	LaserJock: Is Bug #121636 on your MOTUs are really annoyed with this LP bug list?	07:18
ubotu	Launchpad bug 121636 in malone "when a bug is marked as triaged it disappears" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/121636	07:18
LaserJock	ScottK: no	07:19
Fujitsu	Burgundavia: Collab.net? I know not of it.	07:19
Burgundavia	hosted svn basically	07:19
ScottK	LaserJock: Please add it. It makes Triaged mostly useless at this point.	07:19
joejaxx	Fujitsu: it is what the oOo project uses	07:19
Burgundavia	read Michael Meeks for about how crap it is	07:19
Fujitsu	ScottK: More than mostly!	07:19
ScottK	Fujitsu: I just said mostly because of the cases where we WANT the bugs to disappear.	07:20
LaserJock	ScottK: I know, I got rid of a bug using it ;-)	07:20
Fujitsu	Heheh, like that one I mentioned earlier.	07:20
ScottK	Exactly.	07:20
Fujitsu	Won't Fix is convenient too.	07:20
AndyP	i think i read somewhere that there was a plan to form a business model around the big-picture data that can be mined from LP, but i might be wrong	07:20
Fujitsu	AndyP: I've never seen a reference to that, and I've looked hard.	07:20
ScottK	AndyP: Dunno. Don't care. As long as it's a black proprietary box, I feel no responsiblity to do anything other than bitch and moan.	07:21
joejaxx	LaserJock: haha :P	07:21
Fujitsu	+1 ScottK	07:21
LaserJock	I couldn't care less if it was opensourced	07:21
Burgundavia	LaserJock: yes you do	07:22
Burgundavia	crap woudl be fixed faster	07:22
LaserJock	no it wouldn't	07:22
Burgundavia	it would things like release management	07:22
Burgundavia	would have, rather	07:22
nixternal	ya, like 2.5 years ago a bug was created to add support for tracking berlios.de bugs, and ummmmm it is still confirmed/wishlist	07:22
ScottK	LaserJock: Developments wouldn't get dumped on us out of no where.	07:22
Burgundavia	although joey has done amazing work	07:23
Fujitsu	nixternal: I suppose there are no projects that are in main that need it.	07:23
nixternal	well, the bcm43xx garbage is	07:23
Burgundavia	OSS is not a panacea, but managed correctly, it would LP a better place	07:23
jussi01	wow, you guys really know how to gripe.... :P	07:23
ScottK	LaserJock: I don't particularly care about the source myself, but if the development process were more open, we'd all be better off.	07:23
joejaxx	jussi01: lol	07:23
Fujitsu	jussi01: We're very experienced.	07:23
nixternal	of course we do, we practice hard	07:23
LaserJock	I've seen a whole lot of crappy OSS projects	07:23
jussi01	hehe	07:23
Burgundavia	jussi01: most of us have been doing this for at least a year, closing in on three for some of us	07:24
nixternal	this is a once a week discussion almost now	07:24
nixternal	2 for me	07:24
Burgundavia	LaserJock: crappy projects are caused by crappy management	07:24
Burgundavia	pure and simple	07:24
ScottK	LaserJock: Sure. Not saying open source is a panacea, but that LP would be better than it is now.	07:24
LaserJock	sure	07:24
Burgundavia	LP had major issues until joey came along	07:24
LaserJock	you don't know that though	07:24
Fujitsu	LP has better management now that Joey has the wheel.	07:24
jussi01	heheh, look like i walked in at the wrong time...	07:24
ScottK	Fujitsu: If this is better management, I feel for you that've been around here a while.	07:24
LaserJock	as you say, it is management, IMO, more than openness that's the problem	07:24
Burgundavia	but management only solves part of the problem	07:25
ScottK	LaserJock: But the community can help if the management is more open.	07:25
LaserJock	it's the big problem for me	07:25
Burgundavia	now development is at least more consistent	07:25
LaserJock	ScottK: what community?	07:25
LaserJock	who's going to jump on the LP train?	07:25
Burgundavia	all teh bloody python lovers we have	07:25
ScottK	LaserJock: Those of us interested in using it.	07:25
nixternal	Burgundavia: hahahhaa	07:25
Burgundavia	everybody who wants to fix it	07:25
LaserJock	do you think they could?	07:25
Burgundavia	LaserJock: stupidity is not a good argument to us	07:26
Burgundavia	use, rather	07:26
ScottK	LaserJock: As an example, the idiotic idea to only let -devs set in progress lasted one day once it was in the light.	07:26
LaserJock	I seriously wonder if there would be very many people interested in it	07:26
Burgundavia	"your are all too stupid to work on our shiny app"	07:26
LaserJock	Burgundavia: that's not what I'm saying	07:26
Burgundavia	LaserJock: every single Ubuntu dev and user is, by the very definition, interested in LP development	07:26
LaserJock	I'm saying that it being open doesn't mean all of a sudden everybody starts fixing bugs	07:26
Fujitsu	If LP is open, more projects are likely to use it.	07:26
Burgundavia	no, no it doesn't	07:27
Fujitsu	By having more projects, there's a wider development community.	07:27
LaserJock	I would do the same thing I'm doing now	07:27
Burgundavia	if it is open, maybe we can get GNOME or Debian using it	07:27
LaserJock	filing bugs	07:27
Burgundavia	perhaps KDE	07:27
ScottK	LaserJock: No, not necessarily fixing more bugs, but maybe LP devs stop doing stupid stuff because they don't understand the community.	07:27
Burgundavia	none of them are going to use a closed source app to track bugs	07:27
LaserJock	ScottK: I don't see how that would change with it being opensourced	07:27
Burgundavia	http://wiki.python.org/moin/CallForTrackers	07:27
LaserJock	Burgundavia: that's a fair point	07:27
Fujitsu	Burgundavia: That's a good page.	07:28
LaserJock	I can see adoption being hurt by it being open sourced	07:28
Burgundavia	one of the reasons python does not LP for a bug tracker is because IT IS CLOSED SOURCE	07:28
Fujitsu	Oh.	07:28
Fujitsu	That's a new version.	07:28
LaserJock	sorry s/open/closed/	07:28
ScottK	LaserJock: If it's open and the development is open, more of us will be able to see what they are planning and maybe save them the trouble of inflicting something stupidon us.	07:28
Burgundavia	GNOME translators would love to use Rosetta, but it is closed source	07:28
LaserJock	ScottK: I'm not sure that that is really the case	07:28
Fujitsu	Rosetta seems to be great.	07:28
LaserJock	we already can see the bugs, we at least have little snippets of the specs	07:29
Fujitsu	LaserJock: We could see the bloody specs.	07:29
Burgundavia	if you look at most of the people using LP, they are already existing Ubuntu devs or users	07:29
Burgundavia	Jokosher, by example	07:29
LaserJock	I agree that they should open up the wiki for at least sanatized versions	07:29
LaserJock	and many within LP agree	07:29
ScottK	LaserJock: Where's the spec that said they were going to make it so only -devs could mark in progress?	07:29
LaserJock	ScottK: it's on the wiki	07:29
Burgundavia	which wiki?	07:29
LaserJock	the Ubuntu wiki	07:29
ScottK	LaserJock: Where?	07:30
LaserJock	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugWorkflow	07:30
Burgundavia	there are a million good reasons either way	07:30
LaserJock	apparently that wiki page is slightly outdated, but it has what you're looking for	07:30
Burgundavia	at the end of the day, the question that needs to be asked is: "Is Launchpad being closed source good for Ubuntu?"	07:31
Fujitsu	And the answer is a resounding no.	07:31
LaserJock	look, I think LP being opensourced would be a cool thing, no doubt	07:31
LaserJock	but I'm not going to get all upset over it	07:31
LaserJock	because at the end of the day, I'm not convinced it would change anything for me	07:31
LaserJock	I think it would be good from a philosophical standpoint, "Ubuntu should be developed on an open source infrastructure"	07:32
Fujitsu	I've seen people say they won't get involved with Ubuntu because of LP.	07:32
LaserJock	sure	07:32
LaserJock	and I see that point	07:32
LaserJock	I don't see "If LP was open sourced then it would be so much better"	07:32
Burgundavia	I think the process around its development would be better	07:33
LaserJock	sure	07:33
Burgundavia	which, in time, will produce a better app	07:33
LaserJock	well, maybe	07:33
ScottK	LaserJock: In the end, if Canonical believes in Open Source, then the default ought to be it's Free unless there is a strong reason not to and I have yet to see a sensible strong reason not to.	07:33
Fujitsu	We'd have more developers. More people who actually matter could help with it.	07:33
LaserJock	I agree to some degree	07:33
LaserJock	Fujitsu: I don't think you would	07:33
joejaxx	has then been a spec to talk about this at a UDS	07:33
joejaxx	?	07:33
nixternal	$$$$ is a strong reason if you are Canonical I am sure	07:33
ScottK	It's pretty well established that open source development produces better software.	07:33
LaserJock	I think it would be hard to gain as much developer power as what Canonical is pumping into it now	07:34
Fujitsu	joejaxx: I don't think they'd allow it.	07:34
ScottK	nixternal: I don't even see that.	07:34
joejaxx	Fujitsu: oh?	07:34
LaserJock	Fujitsu: oh come on	07:34
Flannel	Well, if LP was open source, it would probably be navigatable again.	07:34
Fujitsu	LaserJock: It's hard to say.	07:34
LaserJock	Mark and several other Canonical people have talked about it before	07:34
LaserJock	it's not a dirty little secret that they censor	07:34
LaserJock	Flannel: I doubt it	07:35
nixternal	ya, I listened in on some of the LP talks at UDS via voip	07:35
ScottK	LaserJock: talked about what?	07:35
LaserJock	LP being closed source and why it isn't	07:35
ScottK	LaserJock: None of which makes much sense to me. Maybe they get it and I don't.	07:35
Flannel	LaserJock: Eh, it was usable before the rewrite. Now it's just impossible for anyone to find anything unless they know where it is already.	07:35
joejaxx	LaserJock: so they would not allow a UDS session on it? to discuss its current standing?	07:36
Fujitsu	Particularly Soyuz navigation absolutely sucks.	07:36
LaserJock	Flannel: and I don't think that would change if it was suddenly open sourced	07:36
LaserJock	joejaxx: I don't see why they wouldn't	07:36
LaserJock	geeze, it's not a big deal	07:36
Fujitsu	What discussion is there? "We're not doing it in the foreseeable future. BoF dismissed."	07:36
ScottK	LaserJock: It's not a big deal to YOU.	07:36
joejaxx	Fujitsu: no	07:36
joejaxx	come on	07:37
joejaxx	i doubt they would do that	07:37
LaserJock	if the developer community is interested, then let's send a letter to Mark asking for an explanation	07:37
joejaxx	it would be interesting to bring up all these things you all have said	07:37
joejaxx	in here	07:37
LaserJock	it's not a big deal, really	07:37
ScottK	joejaxx: They would have slides and it would take longer, but it would amount to that.	07:37
Fujitsu	joejaxx: True.	07:37
joejaxx	particularly the python/gnome/kde	07:37
joejaxx	and present it to them	07:37
joejaxx	that is what i am talking about	07:37
ScottK	LaserJock: I'm not really interested in a defense of proprietary infrastructure. I want free software. An explanation is really no help at all.	07:38
LaserJock	fine	07:38
LaserJock	but you can encourage Mark to timeline it or whatever you want	07:38
Burgundavia	a timeline would be snazzy	07:38
ScottK	LaserJock: From my perspective this last go round dumped a lot of cr@p on us and it would have been worse if we hadn't started screaming.	07:38
LaserJock	I'm just saying, address it if you want, you don't have to sit here complain all the time	07:39
Fujitsu	Back to the discussion of about 10 months ago.	07:39
joejaxx	i really think there should be a uds session about it if people really feel that strongly about it, present cases and facts and see what is said in response	07:39
Burgundavia	LaserJock: I have raised it with Mark several times as well	07:39
LaserJock	this is one of the most open communities I know, surely it's not that hard	07:39
ScottK	LaserJock: If there were more community involvement, it'd have been better. Since it's proprietary, it's up to them.	07:39
LaserJock	sure	07:39
LaserJock	this isn't Debian	07:39
LaserJock	we have a corporate sponsor	07:39
joejaxx	i doubt they would turn down a spec that 100 people are subscribed to :P	07:39
LaserJock	gotta take the good with the bad	07:39
Fujitsu	Their version of community discussion is a UDS BoF that isn't publicised.	07:39
LaserJock	I say having full time developers is the good	07:40
ScottK	LaserJock: Yes, take the good with the bad, but it doesn't mean we have to like it.	07:40
LaserJock	not having complete control over development infrastructre is the bad	07:40
LaserJock	ScottK: I'm not saying you have to	07:40
LaserJock	but I think we have some constructive things we can do perhaps	07:40
LaserJock	this last "status" thing was a storm in a teapot	07:41
LaserJock	it really didn't need to be as big of a deal as it ended up being	07:41
ScottK	LaserJock: As long as the LP methology is an oh by the way e-mail to devel-discuss, it's hard to know what to do.	07:41
Fujitsu	It shows enormous flaws in LP's development process.	07:41
ScottK	Fujitsu: +1	07:41
Fujitsu	What ScottK said.	07:41
Fujitsu	Brb	07:42
LaserJock	well, geeze, we do that sort of stuff all the time	07:42
LaserJock	granted on a smaller scale	07:42
LaserJock	but "Oops, btw, I broke the kernel today"	07:42
joejaxx	LaserJock: :P	07:42
LaserJock	sometimes crap happens	07:42
LaserJock	I agree that we need better communication	07:42
ScottK	LaserJock: How often does it happen on a released Ubuntu version?	07:42
ScottK	LaserJock: WE don't need better communication, they do.	07:43
LaserJock	and I'll come right out and say it that I'm fairly disappointed that Revell hasn't been on top of these things	07:43
LaserJock	but gosh, we've got lots of communication problems	07:43
LaserJock	I guess I just don't let it bother me all that much	07:44
LaserJock	I can see why people get upset	07:44
ScottK	Sure, everyone has communication problems, but as long as LP is proprietary, the responsibility can only lie in one place.	07:44
LaserJock	I'm fine with that	07:44
LaserJock	you may not	07:44
ScottK	LaserJock: What is the antecedant of 'that'	07:44
LaserJock	I'm fine with it being their problem	07:45
LaserJock	although I don't think your statement is strickly true	07:45
Fujitsu	We break things in development releases (except for X.org in Dapper, but that was really bad).	07:45
LaserJock	I've often talked with LP devs and they really wanted to know what their users (us) thought and needed	07:46
LaserJock	Fujitsu: and they realize that this status thing was a "really bad"	07:46
Fujitsu	They do? Good.	07:46
LaserJock	and it wasn't that bad either	07:46
ScottK	Yes, good. First I've heard of it.	07:46
LaserJock	they make all kinds of changes all the time	07:46
ScottK	It was a lot less bad then it might have been because they didn't fully deploy it.	07:47
LaserJock	it sucks documentation wise and they should have given us some heads-up time	07:47
LaserJock	hmm	07:48
Fujitsu	It was announced to a non-developer list of part of their userbase. The announcement was misleading, and the changes deserved a lot more warning.	07:48
ScottK	And it didn't actually work correctly either (link translations and failing to include all open statuses in searches)	07:48
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ScottK	It appeared to have had very little testing.	07:48
LaserJock	Fujitsu: sure, heno was a little confused	07:48
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LaserJock	they are doing monthly rollouts, I doubt it gets all that much testing anyway	07:48
Fujitsu	As heno's the one who should know about that stuff (other then Mr. Revell), that's even worse.	07:48
ScottK	That's a problem.	07:49
Fujitsu	They used to have weekly rollouts.	07:49
Fujitsu	Nothing had broken too badly in a while.	07:49
Fujitsu	Their review process is still similar, AFAIK.	07:49
LaserJock	gosh, you guys act as if no other software ever has bugs or mishaps or bad features	07:49
LaserJock	we deal with this stuff all the time	07:49
LaserJock	just because it's proprietary doesn't mean we need to treat it all that differently	07:50
ScottK	LaserJock: Yes. Absolutely it does.	07:50
LaserJock	especially since many of the devs come from an open source community	07:50
LaserJock	ScottK: I think that's crap, but whatever	07:50
ScottK	LaserJock: As long as it's proprietary, the community has no responsibility for it.	07:50
Fujitsu	It's proprietary, the open source community depends on it, and we have to trust the proprietary devs.	07:50
LaserJock	so what?	07:50
LaserJock	honestly, geeze	07:50
LaserJock	you guys have never had to rely on anythin proprietary in your lives?	07:51
ScottK	It's a question of where the responsibility lies.	07:51
LaserJock	so?	07:51
=== joejaxx thinks that discussion would be better discussed at a UDS BoF
LaserJock	I see problems, I file bugs, bug hopefully get fixed	07:51
Fujitsu	joejaxx: That's a few months away yet.	07:51
joejaxx	Fujitsu: yes but i can still wish	07:51
Fujitsu	LaserJock: ... or they sit around for a year or two.	07:51
LaserJock	Fujitsu: and we don't have bugs like that?	07:52
LaserJock	I mean, I really don't see any difference here	07:52
Fujitsu	With F/LOSS, you can scratch your own itch, so to speak.	07:52
LaserJock	sure	07:52
ScottK	LaserJock: WIth most apps, if I don't like the new features, I can run the old version. Not so with LP.	07:52
Fujitsu	That too.	07:52
LaserJock	do you get to do that with Google?	07:52
LaserJock	with Yahoo?	07:53
LaserJock	with Amazon?	07:53
Fujitsu	I don't want to be forced to run Vista the second it's released.	07:53
LaserJock	it's a service guys	07:53
Flannel	LaserJock: yes. You simply don't shop at Amazon.	07:53
LaserJock	we use them everyday	07:53
joejaxx	not to disrupt the current discussion but does anyone know what the "later" mileston is?	07:53
joejaxx	on lp?	07:53
LaserJock	I think it is obsolete	07:53
ScottK	No, but if Google get's things wrong enough, I can use Yahoo.	07:53
joejaxx	LaserJock: oh ok	07:53
Fujitsu	joejaxx: Used to be for stuff that should be done before release, but not a milsetone in particular, AFAIK.	07:54
joejaxx	ah ok	07:54
joejaxx	just wondering thanks	07:54
joejaxx	:)	07:54
LaserJock	I mean, I totally understand that opensourced LP would be better	07:54
LaserJock	but I'm not going to get an ulcer over it not being	07:54
ScottK	LaserJock: For some other distro, it's a service that distro has chosen to use. For Ubuntu it's a critical part of our tool chain.	07:54
LaserJock	and I have to trust Mark and Canonical enough to use it	07:54
LaserJock	part of being an Ubuntu developer right now is dealing with issues with Canonical	07:55
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LaserJock	it's the nature of the beast	07:55
ScottK	LaserJock: Sure. I'm here now aren't I.	07:55
Fujitsu	It's mostly manageable.	07:55
Fujitsu	There are some conflicts, but it's pretty OK.	07:55
LaserJock	so if we don't like it we can say so, and work towards getting a better situation	07:55
ScottK	But as I said at the beginning, the proprietary toolset is a negative aspect of an overall positive picture.	07:55
crimsun	do you mean "part of being an Ubuntu developer right now is accepting issues beyond your control"?	07:56
LaserJock	I can see where people would think that	07:56
ScottK	LaserJock: I just don't see what can be done on our end to make the situation better.	07:56
LaserJock	I personally don't care, and that's justme	07:56
=== lfittl [n=lfittl@chello080109027166.17.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #ubuntu-motu
AndyP	ScottK: write a better LP clone :)	07:56
ScottK	Hi crimsun. How'd househunting go?	07:56
LaserJock	well, for one thing it doesn't help to just complain about it being closed source, therefor it sucks	07:56
LaserJock	the LP devs really want to make LP better	07:57
crimsun	ScottK: not bad, I've settled on Columbia given the N-S commute	07:57
LaserJock	but they need actionable material	07:57
LaserJock	I've been trying to work on that some	07:57
ScottK	LaserJock: It doesn't suck because of the fact that it's closed source, it's just harder to make it better/more widely used because it is.	07:57
joejaxx	well one thing is if this is a sprint at the next UDS	07:57
LaserJock	ScottK: agreed	07:57
joejaxx	i think our discussions will be alot more productive	07:57
ScottK	crimsun: It's a nice area. If you're headed into DC, it's about the best direction to head in from.	07:58
LaserJock	I don't think a UDS BOF would be helpful at all	07:58
LaserJock	I think it would be a disaster	07:58
joejaxx	LaserJock: really?	07:58
joejaxx	:(	07:58
LaserJock	yes, really	07:58
Fujitsu	UDS BoFs worked well for the status changes	07:58
=== ScottK agreew w/ LaserJock
ScottK	heh	07:58
joejaxx	why? :\	07:58
LaserJock	people would just yell at each other and nothing would get done	07:58
LaserJock	this is a Canonical policy issue	07:58
joejaxx	well people need to learn to act civil :P	07:58
ScottK	joejaxx: Keep in mind the level of passion here and remember this is only one side of the discussion.	07:58
LaserJock	that has community consequences	07:58
Fujitsu	I can see a lot of yelling and not much else, like LaserJock.	07:58
ScottK	It would get load.	07:59
joejaxx	true :\	07:59
LaserJock	what we would need is a unified community statement	07:59
LaserJock	heck, MOTU could go on strike or something if it truely came to it	07:59
LaserJock	but us grumbling amongst each other does nothing much to help the situation, IMO	07:59
Fujitsu	Nyeh, Canonical doesn't need us that much.	07:59
ScottK	AndyP: I don't feel a need to replace LP (now), but I would like it to support our processes rather than attempt to drive them.	08:00
joejaxx	Fujitsu: yes they do	08:00
joejaxx	lol	08:00
joejaxx	if universe halted there would be a problem	08:00
joejaxx	universe/multiverse*	08:00
AndyP	ScottK: yeah, bit drastic isn't it... i was half joking	08:00
LaserJock	ScottK: honestly though, the status stuff was oiginally designed to do that	08:00
crimsun	joejaxx: only to an extent. There are plenty of people who will compile their own debs and post URLs to them.	08:01
joejaxx	crimsun: ah that is true	08:01
LaserJock	the issue is not so much specific to LP though	08:01
joejaxx	but it has been there for quite some while	08:01
Flannel	LaserJock: I hardly think a strike is appropriate. You hurt the users more than anything else. Once theyre gone (even if the strike only lasts a day) the fallout will remain.	08:01
joejaxx	so it is a convenience now	08:01
ScottK	LaserJock: I believer that was the goal, just not how it was going to end up.	08:01
crimsun	Ubuntu as a distro most definitely does not need MOTU.	08:01
crimsun	it helps immensely to have diligent MOTU, but it's not a matter of life or death.	08:02
LaserJock	we (the volunteer community) have a lot of interfaces with Canonical and at those interfaces friction can happen	08:02
joejaxx	crimsun: because most of the stuff is in main (ie maintained by u-c-d) ?	08:02
Fujitsu	The main stuff that users use is, unsurprisingly, in main.	08:02
joejaxx	yeah	08:02
LaserJock	communication is a key aspect here	08:02
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LaserJock	Canonical could really use better communication with the volunteer community	08:03
Fujitsu	Ubuntu would operate without universe, and could even just grab stuff unmodified from Debian. MOTU aren't really necessary in the scheme of things.	08:03
DarkSun88	Hi all	08:03
Fujitsu	They definitely could.	08:03
Fujitsu	Hi DarkSun88. Welcome to the warzone.	08:03
LaserJock	Canonical is probably one of the better Linux companies around, but it could still use a lot more	08:03
DarkSun88	Fujitsu: :D	08:03
LaserJock	The thing with this spec is, the LP devs did discuss it with the community	08:03
LaserJock	in a BOF in Sevilla	08:03
LaserJock	so for them they got the "user" feedback they needed to procede	08:04
Fujitsu	That wasn't publicised.	08:04
LaserJock	that's an issue	08:04
Fujitsu	I only discovered it when trawling through Malone specs a week ago.	08:04
LaserJock	I feel like we do a bad job of giving out the results of the UDSs	08:04
Fujitsu	bug-workflow doesn't to me say "let's rewrite all the statuses and permissions!"	08:04
Fujitsu	So I didn't think much of it until I read it recently.	08:05
LaserJock	sure	08:05
LaserJock	but lots of things are done that way presently	08:05
ScottK	As I understand it, they had a discussion of a PART of the changes, at UDS, not all of them.	08:05
crimsun	UDS specifically aren't for the community; they're for Canonical employees paid to work on Ubuntu.	08:05
LaserJock	I don't know a 10th of what's going on after a UDS	08:05
LaserJock	in fact, as I said earlier, I talked with kiko, BjornT, and mdz about statuses earlier in the week	08:06
LaserJock	and I got blindsided with these changes	08:06
LaserJock	so obviously it didn't get out properly	08:06
Fujitsu	Not good.	08:06
LaserJock	but I think that's more of a communication issue, rather than "LP is closed source so it's evil"	08:07
LaserJock	I honestly think we can get much further by completely avoiding the proprietary issue	08:07
AndyP	openness and communication are linked quite strongly	08:07
=== elkbuntu would love to see the alternative with 20 LP's trying to be synched
LaserJock	because I feel that that isn't the issue	08:07
Fujitsu	That part is due to communication, but the whole bug status thing would have been avoided if their development process was more open.	08:08
LaserJock	the issue is a lack of communication, which can happen anywhere	08:08
Fujitsu	elkbuntu: Right, that's one problem.	08:08
poningru	where is jono	08:08
elkbuntu	Fujitsu, and one that would add to the communication barriers	08:08
poningru	been reading scroll back	08:08
elkbuntu	poningru, probably on a plane somewhere	08:08
ScottK	LaserJock: I agree that communication is the issue, not (primarily) the close nature of it, but the fact that it's closed put the onus on them to do all the communicating.	08:08
LaserJock	Fujitsu: LPs development process is about as open as Ubuntu's, roughly	08:08
poningru	def needs jono in here to answer these questions	08:08
LaserJock	ScottK: no it doesn't	08:08
ScottK	elkbuntu: Why does it matter if the upstream bug tracker is another LP or a bugzilla?	08:09
LaserJock	ScottK: it makes it more difficult, for sure	08:09
Fujitsu	jono is the Ubuntu community manager. I think this is more Matt Revell's domain.	08:09
ScottK	LaserJock: It's either a community project or it's not.	08:09
poningru	Fujitsu: the reason being I think this is more a lack of communication between community and canonical	08:09
Fujitsu	ScottK: It does matter, in that LP could probably be taught to communicate with another LP very easily :P	08:09
LaserJock	ScottK: I don't think it matters so much	08:10
elkbuntu	ScottK, it's already a challenge keeping them all in touch, without complicating it even further	08:10
poningru	Fujitsu: and I see this problem not only in the motu\|\|LP devel communication	08:10
poningru	I also see it in marketing	08:10
LaserJock	I think it's hard to really tell what is a "community project" and what isn't	08:10
poningru	where we have no fracking idea who the marketing person is at canonical	08:10
LaserJock	you can see LP bugs	08:10
ScottK	Fujitsu: Right, so opening up LP and spreading them would make things better than a monolithic proprietary LP that others won't use.	08:10
LaserJock	you can see LP specs (there should be enough to get an idea of what's going on)	08:10
Fujitsu	ScottK: Right. They can communicate, and the world lives in peace and harmony forever. Aw.	08:11
crimsun	LaserJock: what's difficult?	08:11
Fujitsu	LaserJock: A lot of them have a description of one line.	08:11
poningru	anyway Burgundavia going to sleep got a bit done as far as thursday goes will upload it tomorrow	08:11
LaserJock	crimsun: communication to a proprietary app development team	08:11
poningru	nn	08:11
Fujitsu	poningru: Night.	08:11
ScottK	LaserJock: Look at the fraction of Ubuntu core-devs that are not Canonical employees and then do the same caluculation for LP. I think you'll find it very different.	08:12
LaserJock	Fujitsu: they should have enough to get an idea	08:12
LaserJock	ScottK: but what does that matter?	08:12
LaserJock	I mean, what does that prove	08:12
ScottK	You said LP development and Ubuntu development were equally open.	08:12
LaserJock	roughly	08:12
ScottK	They aren't. LP development is limited to Canonical devs.	08:12
ScottK	OK roughly.	08:12
LaserJock	and core Ubuntu development is roughly limited to Canonical	08:13
Fujitsu	I know LP had one community dev for a short period a long time ago.	08:13
LaserJock	they define priorities	08:13
LaserJock	they pay the key people and tell them what to work on	08:13
LaserJock	they do a lot of stuff behind our backs	08:13
ScottK	Right, but they still can't tell you what to work on.	08:13
Fujitsu	Whereas they do with LP. We can't work on anything.	08:13
LaserJock	well, LP devs aren't doing that either	08:13
ScottK	If you want to make package X do Y and upload it, it's there.	08:13
LaserJock	there isn't anything to work on ;-)	08:14
ScottK	Yes, because it's closed source	08:14
LaserJock	ScottK: well, only to a certain extent	08:14
ScottK	Agreed.	08:14
LaserJock	the archive admins are Canonical	08:14
=== jussi01 sighs...
Fujitsu	That's mostly because LP is deficient.	08:14
LaserJock	they could stop volunteer devs if they wanted to	08:14
Fujitsu	There's no UI.	08:14
ScottK	Sure. They've got the ultimate veto power.	08:14
LaserJock	anyway, this is a little sidebar	08:15
ScottK	OK.	08:15
LaserJock	my point was that Ubuntu isn't completely open either	08:15
ScottK	Sure. What is.	08:15
LaserJock	it's a part of having a distro that is sponsored by a company	08:15
ScottK	Even Debian isn't completely open. It just has it's closed aspects worked a different way.	08:16
ScottK	Agreed.	08:16
crimsun	what I'm reading is that LP changes could have been better disclosed to its potential clients.	08:16
LaserJock	I'd love to see us use a free and open source infrastrucure tool	08:16
LaserJock	crimsun: exactly	08:16
LaserJock	and tbh, I'm not convinced the "big idea" of LP is going to work	08:16
ScottK	And they could have been less brain dead too (the changes).	08:17
LaserJock	but I don't control what we use and I like LP just fine and I think the LP devs do a good job	08:17
LaserJock	so even though I'm not particularly fond of the way LP is developed some days, I work with LP devs to make it better	08:17
LaserJock	because I don't think it's just going to "go away"	08:18
ScottK	LP is generally fine these days (although personally I don't particularly like the new UI). I just wish they wouldn't do stuff that makes it worse.	08:18
LaserJock	with something like 1/2 to 2/3 of his company into LP I can't imagine Mark will just let it go	08:18
ScottK	I wouldn't expect them to let it go.	08:18
LaserJock	ScottK: sure, and much of that can be corrected	08:18
ScottK	LaserJock: Yes, but why are we doing that after the fact.	08:19
LaserJock	some things are tough to change because of the way it's written	08:19
LaserJock	ScottK: cause they goofed, they didn't test enough, they didn't get enough user feedback	08:19
LaserJock	stuff that happens to us all the time	08:19
LaserJock	think of all the silly SRUs we have to do	08:19
ScottK	I'd say that they got all the user feedback they asked for.	08:20
LaserJock	well, they though they had enough	08:20
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LaserJock	they got, I think, several of the big players in Ubuntu to be ok with their changes	08:20
ScottK	Or at least the fraction of the changes they discussed.	08:20
AndyP	they should encourage user feedback at every stage... as you said, that wiki page went out of date (why?)	08:21
LaserJock	because it changed at the Sevilla BOF I think	08:21
LaserJock	or something roughly like that	08:21
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ScottK	LaserJock: My understanding from someone who was there was that not all of the proposed changes (the limits on status changes in particular) were discussed at UDS.	08:22
=== me [n=ano@68.152.35.34] has left #ubuntu-motu []
LaserJock	that's possible	08:22
LaserJock	often times they don't think it's going to be a big deal and then it is	08:22
Fujitsu	ScottK: I have talked to someone who said similar.	08:22
LaserJock	stuff like this happens	08:22
LaserJock	I think we can help them do better	08:23
ScottK	It seems disingenuous to me to discuss part of a spec at UDS and then respond to complaints about the stuff not discussed with "But we discussed the spec at UDS:.	08:23
LaserJock	well, there's a lot more too it	08:23
LaserJock	LP devs see distro employees as just as good as asking us	08:24
LaserJock	they don't always get a proper sampling of feedback	08:24
ScottK	LaserJock: I'm sure there is, but this is where it being proprietary hurts again. As long as it's a proprietary app, my give a darn factor for how hard it is for them is very low.	08:25
ScottK	By deciding to make LP proprietary, Canonical has really made it their problem.	08:25
LaserJock	I guess	08:26
LaserJock	I've talked to these guys	08:26
LaserJock	and know how much they are interested in helping us	08:26
elkbuntu	this discussion isnt really going to solve anything...	08:26
LaserJock	obviously, LP being proprietary makes it harder	08:26
LaserJock	but I guess Mark has weighed the pros and cons	08:26
joejaxx	hello elkbuntu :)	08:27
LaserJock	and decided that for now at least it remains unreleased	08:27
LaserJock	elkbuntu: I think it's useful	08:27
ScottK	elkbuntu: I agree, but LaserJock is the MOTU rep to LP, so I think it's important for him to be stuffed full of the community opinion on this.	08:27
LaserJock	yes	08:27
LaserJock	I've talked to kiko once about the status thing already	08:27
ScottK	LaserJock: Useful yes, but for who? It doesn't help me any.	08:27
ScottK	and?	08:27
LaserJock	well, I don't think he was all that happy about it	08:28
ScottK	Who is kiko?	08:28
Fujitsu	One of the LP bergods.	08:28
elkbuntu	ScottK, in terms of it's probably better with more LP people in the discussion	08:28
Fujitsu	Almost on top, I think.	08:28
LaserJock	Christian Reis	08:29
ScottK	Henrick (who was fronting the mailing list discussion) seemed unable to really get that we had people who were devs that fixed bugs.	08:29
ScottK	LaserJock: Doesn't help me any.	08:29
ScottK	Fujitsu: Thanks.	08:29
LaserJock	ScottK: as Fujitsu said, one of the top admins in the LP world	08:29
Fujitsu	ScottK: weren't devs, you mean? I got that too.	08:29
LaserJock	kiko is my primarly technical contact	08:29
ScottK	Fujitsu: Yes. Weren't devs.	08:29
Fujitsu	I'm not sure how SteveA relates to him.	08:29
LaserJock	I think they're kinda at the same level	08:30
LaserJock	but oversee different aspects perhaps	08:30
LaserJock	or SteveA might be his immediate boss, I'm not sure	08:30
LaserJock	I'd love to see an organizational chart	08:30
Fujitsu	Anyhow, kiko is very very close to the top of all things LP.	08:30
Fujitsu	Yeah, it'd be interesting.	08:30
LaserJock	kiko is my primary LP technical contact	08:30
ScottK	OK. What kind of not happy?	08:31
LaserJock	he came to me asking for a MOTU liason	08:31
joejaxx	how many people work on LP?	08:31
LaserJock	joejaxx: roughly 50 I think	08:31
Fujitsu	35	08:31
ScottK	LaserJock: I guess the kindest thing I can say is how to use the liaison is still a work in progress then.	08:31
Fujitsu	(developers, that is)	08:31
AndyP	https://launchpad.net/~launchpad/+members	08:31
LaserJock	Fujitsu: right	08:32
joejaxx	AndyP: ah good thinking i never thought about that	08:32
Fujitsu	That was my reference, AndyP.	08:32
LaserJock	ScottK: I agree	08:32
LaserJock	there's a lot that goes one though	08:32
LaserJock	I honestly feel like I at least should have been given a heads up	08:32
LaserJock	to pass on to MOTU	08:32
ScottK	Alternatively, it's all just window dressing because they are going to do what they are going to to.	08:32
LaserJock	especially since I talked with the LP devs about the statuses at Sevilla	08:32
LaserJock	I doubt it	08:33
ScottK	Would you ask them to bump the Triaged bugs disappear bug to Critical.	08:33
LaserJock	I just got an email from kiko asking me to use the motu tag more	08:33
ScottK	LaserJock: I doubt it too, but at this point either theory fits the data.	08:33
Fujitsu	That should be trivial to fix, and Triaged is useless without it.	08:33
=== Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-motu
LaserJock	right now I've got about 8 bugs that I've asked to get fixed that have been	08:34
Fujitsu	Afternoon, Hobbsee.	08:34
LaserJock	it's sometimes slow work, no doubt	08:34
LaserJock	but they do work on them	08:34
AndyP	well, presumably they only work 9-5 on weekdays :)	08:35
LaserJock	heh, they work a fair amount	08:35
LaserJock	I think they do more than 40hrs/week	08:35
LaserJock	in general	08:35
LaserJock	from what I can see, Rosetta is taking a lot of resources	08:36
Hobbsee	hi Fujitsu	08:36
crimsun	well, I always give them the benefit of the doubt; development is a painstaking problem, and I'm on both ends	08:36
=== grayman [n=grayman@89.1.183.110.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu
crimsun	clients nearly always have a different idea of "critical" from developers	08:37
ScottK	Hello Hobbsee.	08:37
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Hobbsee	hi ScottK, crimsun, LaserJock, AndyP	08:37
crimsun	hi Hobbsee	08:37
AndyP	hello Hobbsee	08:37
LaserJock	hi Hobbsee	08:37
Hobbsee	:)	08:38
crimsun	(plus I'm not an employee, nor have I purchased a support contract, so I'm a nobody. I just don't bother.)	08:38
LaserJock	look, I'll try to talk to kiko and perhaps joey and matthew revell this next week	08:38
AndyP	here's an idea... get LP devs to do some MOTU work or bug triage for a training week :)	08:38
LaserJock	and see if we can hash out some communication and SOS plans	08:38
AndyP	put them in our shoes	08:39
ScottK	Hobbsee: You've been missing all the fun. We've been on a collective LP rant for over 3 hours now.	08:39
Fujitsu	This is the longest one to date, I think.	08:39
LaserJock	AndyP: and we get to develop LP for a week? :-)	08:39
Hobbsee	ScottK: oh woot. i need to file some critical bugs on it, too	08:39
Fujitsu	Makes for a fun afternoon.	08:39
ScottK	LP Bug #1 - Launchpad not open source.	08:39
AndyP	LaserJock: no, i'll stick with ubuntu stuff i think, much more fun	08:39
LaserJock	so here's my ideas, see if you guys agree:	08:40
ScottK	OK	08:40
Hobbsee	oh right, it got filed. https://launchpad.net/bugs/121636	08:40
ubotu	Launchpad bug 121636 in malone "when a bug is marked as triaged it disappears" [High,Confirmed]	08:40
Fujitsu	Hobbsee: Ah yes, that one.	08:40
Fujitsu	Nice job on their part to manage to stuff that up.	08:40
ScottK	Hobbsee: I already asked LaserJock to add it to his MOTU really annoyed list.	08:40
Hobbsee	i marked a bug as critical and triaged - made me go "so, uh, where on earth is that bug i just marked as critical, for herd 2?"	08:40
LaserJock	1. We need an SOS plan. That is to say, if they do something or something critical happens we (MOTU) need a way to get a fix ASAP	08:41
calc	i'm pretty sure disappearing triaged bugs issue will be fixed pretty fast ;)	08:41
=== Monk-e [n=guido-xu@c529dd229.cable.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-motu
ScottK	calc: But you work for Canonical, so you'd say that.	08:41
Fujitsu	calc: It's waiting for the next rollout.	08:41
Fujitsu	ScottK: Exactly what I thought too.	08:41
Fujitsu	So, it's a month away.	08:41
LaserJock	2. We need to know relevent LP changes at least a week? before a rollout	08:41
calc	ScottK: that kind of bug affects everyone including employees though	08:41
calc	Fujitsu: what?	08:42
LaserJock	3. Have a number of LP beta-testers that can test MOTU-critical activites before rollout	08:42
Hobbsee	ScottK: i'm not sure that canonical has a blanket 'you must say only positive things about canonical' rule	08:42
calc	Fujitsu: they don't rollout faster when they break critical stuff?	08:42
Fujitsu	calc: Unless it's Critical, it's not a candidate for cherrypicking.	08:42
Fujitsu	It's obviously not important enough.	08:42
ScottK	Hobbsee: I was actually kidding. He's new enough not to have been fully brainwashed yet.	08:42
calc	Fujitsu: ah ok apparently this bug is already critical though	08:42
Hobbsee	mmm...brainwashing.	08:42
calc	Fujitsu: oh nm its high	08:42
Hobbsee	ScottK: where'd you get your bitterness from?	08:42
=== calc reads the bug report
AndyP	it's not critical, it's "High"	08:43
ScottK	3+ hours of whining about LP	08:43
Fujitsu	AndyP: Exactly.	08:43
ScottK	That and it's almost 3AM here. I have no idea why I didn't just go to bed.	08:43
LaserJock	so what do people think about my points?	08:44
Hobbsee	heh	08:44
Hobbsee	LaserJock: being that ubuntu isnt the only group in launchpad, i'm not sure they care terribly much	08:44
crimsun	(3) needs a clearly delineated set of "activities" with precise test cases	08:44
Fujitsu	LaserJock: Point 3 was done this time. Staging was accessible to everyone... for about 24 hours before the change entered production.	08:44
ScottK	LaserJock: I think 2 and 3 go together. If there were MOTUs involved in testing, they could seek community opinions if stuff seemed odd to them.	08:44
LaserJock	well, I split them as in	08:45
LaserJock	we get a list of LP changes	08:45
LaserJock	then we have a number of MOTUs that can go through and test	08:45
LaserJock	I guess I'm thinking like doing Release Candidate .iso testing	08:45
crimsun	I would strongly advise against that approach	08:45
LaserJock	ok :-)	08:46
ScottK	They key is getting the list early enough so that if we come back and say, "OMG, no - that will kill us", they don't say, "Sorry, too late."	08:46
LaserJock	well, we do have the milestones	08:46
LaserJock	now	08:46
Fujitsu	crimsun: What issues do you see?	08:46
crimsun	instead, we should delineate our critical use cases detailing what our typical procedure is and what the expected result is	08:47
=== calc seconded Hobbsee's request
Hobbsee	calc: which request, sorry?	08:47
calc	Hobbsee: to get that stupid LP bug fixed ASAP ;)	08:47
LaserJock	crimsun: so like on a wiki page or something that they can use?	08:47
crimsun	we definitely do not want LP rollout blocking on MOTU	08:47
Hobbsee	ah right	08:47
crimsun	LaserJock: yes	08:47
Hobbsee	calc: it's blocking ubuntu-release	08:47
Hobbsee	so, as far as i'm concerned, it's critical.	08:47
Hobbsee	maybe i'm biased, as i'm part of ubuntu-release	08:47
LaserJock	well, I wasn't really seeing it as blocking them	08:48
Fujitsu	Hobbsee: It's not blocking them. It's just making their job easier :P	08:48
LaserJock	but giving them some time to fix critical stuff before rollout	08:48
calc	Hobbsee: well i think ubuntu is a high enough customer of LP to get something like that fixed quickly if it blocks ubuntu for stuff... but we'll see	08:48
crimsun	LaserJock: if we can add to the regression suite, it's much better than having to ping-pong us	08:48
Hobbsee	Fujitsu: where them == ubuntu-release? sure, but it's not actually getting the bugs fixed, it's losing them.	08:48
Hobbsee	calc: i would think so. i only noticed it last night when doing some RMing	08:48
LaserJock	crimsun: good point	08:49
calc	luckily i haven't triaged any OOo bugs in the past couple days	08:49
calc	so the tag wasn't there to cause me problems	08:49
LaserJock	crimsun: I'm not sure what all we'd give them but it sounds reasonable	08:49
=== calc leaving for real now
crimsun	well, our hangup seems to be sponsoring, so we outline our typical sponsorship protocol	08:50
LaserJock	yeah	08:50
crimsun	a secondary one is SRU, but that could be tied to main as well	08:50
LaserJock	sometimes when I've talked with LP devs about how we often us LP they are a bit surprised	08:50
LaserJock	they should really know what our typical workflow is	08:50
LaserJock	how we are using LP	08:50
crimsun	like I said, most of us are just peons. It's you high exposure deity folk that they see.	08:50
LaserJock	I've tried to do a little informally	08:51
Fujitsu	It's the distro team that they see.	08:51
LaserJock	crimsun: we're all peons ;-)	08:51
crimsun	Fujitsu: yes, the "paying clients" of sorts.	08:51
LaserJock	well	08:51
Hobbsee	Fujitsu: they do listen to non-canonical people. sometimes.	08:51
Hobbsee	at least some people within canonical do	08:51
LaserJock	I think they are also fairly interested in MOTU as well	08:51
Hobbsee	but you have to be careful in what you say :P	08:52
LaserJock	because I think MOTU are probably closer to what their real clients would be	08:52
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LaserJock	well, Joey gets them using the milestones better I think it will help	08:53
LaserJock	I just checked the 1.1.6 milestone and I don't see anything about the status thing	08:53
Fujitsu	LaserJock: It's the second of the two specs.	08:53
LaserJock	hmm?	08:53
LaserJock	where are you looking?	08:53
LaserJock	oh freaking heck	08:54
Fujitsu	On malone.	08:54
LaserJock	they have the specs split up by product/project	08:54
Fujitsu	There's no unified LP project milestone page.	08:54
LaserJock	s/specs/milestones/	08:54
Fujitsu	It makes sense.	08:55
LaserJock	I was looking only at the Launchpad milestone	08:55
Fujitsu	But the launchpad-project project group should really list them all.	08:55
LaserJock	yes	08:55
LaserJock	that's what it does for bugs	08:55
Fujitsu	I guess that would make too much sense, though.	08:56
LaserJock	so we got 1 good spec and 1 not-so-good spec out of malone	08:56
LaserJock	;-)	08:56
Fujitsu	Yes.	08:56
LaserJock	I was around for the MOTU permissions spec	08:56
LaserJock	s/spec/BOF?	08:56
Fujitsu	The first was very quick in the implementation. It only took like 2 months from when it was proposed a couple of days before UDS. I was surprised.	08:56
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ScottK	Hobbsee: I did file bugs with the Postfix changes you uploaded yesterday with Debian today.	08:58
Hobbsee	ScottK: cool	08:58
LaserJock	btw, I've got 15 "motu" bugs in LP right now	08:58
LaserJock	I did have like 4 or 5, so hopefully they'll keep busy	08:58
LaserJock	I've got to get to bed, so let me wrap up a little here	08:59
Hobbsee	LaserJock: who will you poke over them?	08:59
Fujitsu	Well, it seems to have died out after about 3.5 hours. Not a bad effort.	08:59
Fujitsu	Night, LaserJock.	08:59
ScottK	Good night LaserJock	08:59
LaserJock	Hobbsee: "motu" is an official LP dev tag, kiko "appoints" resources and prioritizes them for me	09:00
LaserJock	I think the discussion is useful	09:00
=== ScottK should get to bed too. LaserJock is two hours west of me and it's late for him.
Hobbsee	LaserJock: right. so kiko	09:00
LaserJock	LP is proprietary and so we do need to take any advantage they offer us to move our priorities along	09:00
LaserJock	I can't opensource it	09:01
LaserJock	I'd love to see progress there, but for now I'm not worrying about it so much	09:01
ScottK	Understand. It just limits what we can do.	09:01
LaserJock	what I can do is pass along to LP devs our need for better communication	09:01
LaserJock	ScottK: agreed	09:01
LaserJock	and try to work on getting us the best situation we can	09:02
Fujitsu	Hobbsee: The verb is affect, not effect!	09:02
crimsun	ok, so to accomplish that, we should draw up aforementioned protocol, no?	09:02
LaserJock	so what I'm getting from this status mess is that we/me need a way to SOS LP	09:02
crimsun	(sponsorship, SRU among them)	09:02
Fujitsu	If we're going to get anywhere, we should.	09:02
LaserJock	and to give them realistic example workflows, etc. as crimsun has said	09:03
LaserJock	give them a list of things we have to have working to do our work	09:03
Hobbsee	Fujitsu: i often get the two confused, as they both apply in different situations	09:03
LaserJock	one thing I'm interested in is if I could mark that "Triaged" bug as Critical	09:04
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LaserJock	even if they downgrade it it would be interesting ;-)	09:04
ScottK	Go for it.	09:04
LaserJock	I'm tempted	09:04
Fujitsu	LaserJock: And mark it as Triaged, as it has enough info to be fixed.	09:04
LaserJock	but I don't want to piss anybody off just now	09:05
ScottK	What're they going to do, cut your pay?	09:05
LaserJock	Fujitsu: lol	09:05
Fujitsu	LaserJock: Are you actually able to change the importance?	09:05
LaserJock	Fujitsu: I belive so	09:05
ScottK	Everyone say it together... Go LaserJock	09:05
LaserJock	I could move it to Critical and then back to High to give them a little ping	09:06
Fujitsu	That might work.	09:06
ScottK	Just mark it critical and leave it.	09:06
Fujitsu	ScottK: kiko will eat him.	09:06
ScottK	Why, it's data loss and it's impacting Tribe 2 release. I'd say it qualifies.	09:06
Fujitsu	kiko is the only one allowed to appoint bugs for cherrypicking.	09:07
Hobbsee	there are workarounds, of course	09:07
Hobbsee	if anyone's got serious wishes to work on LP, they can probably get access to the code, btw.	09:07
Fujitsu	Workarounds are the LP way.	09:07
Hobbsee	if they're known within the community, etc.	09:08
Hobbsee	(under a NDA)	09:08
Fujitsu	Yay, NDAs.	09:08
Hobbsee	well, yeah.	09:09
=== ScottK only does NDAs for stuff I'm getting paid for.
AndyP	NDAs are very chic, even kernel driver devs are wearing them these days	09:10
Fujitsu	I have a number for different companies for work, but they all have good reasons to keep their data secret.	09:10
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Hobbsee	LaserJock: i'd imagine the wiki page was written by kiko, pre-sevilla.	09:10
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Hobbsee	LaserJock: where he found out that the workflow was different to what he thought	09:11
crimsun	f login --save-after-login	09:11
crimsun	argh	09:11
Fujitsu	I agree with crimsun.	09:11
ScottK	It's easy enough to see who worked on it. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugWorkflow?action=info	09:12
LaserJock	lol, I did it ;-)	09:13
AndyP	:)	09:13
LaserJock	ok, there you guys go	09:14
LaserJock	if my head rolls, it's all your fault ;-)	09:14
ScottK	LaserJock: If they didn't want you to push that button, they shouldn't have given you the power.	09:14
LaserJock	well, I'm not sure how many of them know I have it ;-)	09:15
LaserJock	I don't want to ruin a good thing, hehe	09:15
=== ScottK watches an big empty space open up around LaserJock.
LaserJock	I was getting some private emails, but we got that worked out	09:15
=== ScottK is out of steam and going to bed.
LaserJock	private bugmails that is	09:15
=== Fujitsu watches the strike team being dispatched to LaserJock's.
ScottK	Good night everyone. It's been an interesting evening.	09:16
Fujitsu	Night, ScottK.	09:16
LaserJock	I'm out too	09:16
LaserJock	thanks ScottK and Fujitsu	09:16
LaserJock	and crimsun and everybody else	09:16
LaserJock	it's been fruitful	09:16
ScottK	No problem.	09:16
AndyP	g'night ScottK and LaserJock	09:16
LaserJock	hopefully I can get something done this next week	09:16
Fujitsu	Night LaserJock	09:16
Fujitsu	It has been.	09:16
ScottK	Being persistent and argumentative are two of my strong points.	09:16
Hobbsee	LaserJock: you werent supposed to admit to that :P	09:16
Hobbsee	night LaserJock	09:16
AndyP	well i'm glad that wasn't brought up at a motu meeting, the minutes would have been huge	09:19
Fujitsu	AndyP: Heheh.	09:20
Fujitsu	Close to 4 hours.	09:20
Hobbsee	haha	09:21
Hobbsee	still not sure how much was acheieved, without matt revell here.	09:21
Fujitsu	It would have been nice to have him and perhaps kiko here.	09:21
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Hobbsee	true. but it's sunday	09:22
Fujitsu	Well, yes.	09:22
TheMuso	What have I just missed/	09:23
Fujitsu	Over 1000 lines of LP ranting.	09:23
Hobbsee	TheMuso: a long rant about launchpad	09:23
jussi01	lol	09:23
RAOF	Over a breathtaking 4 hour stint :)	09:24
jussi01	long? dont you mean ginormous?	09:24
TheMuso	heh	09:24
TheMuso	Ok, sounds like I haven't missed much then.	09:24
jussi01	hehe	09:24
RAOF	Surely this is the perfect time to whip out "gargantuan" :)	09:24
jussi01	lol RAOF	09:24
TheMuso	haha	09:27
Fujitsu	TheMuso: It there was a bit of useful stuff in there. Not enough to be worth going through the logs, though.	09:28
Fujitsu	Where'd that `It' come from?	09:29
=== RAOF picks up the box of articles he left lying around
=== Fujitsu has been using compiz all day. It's rather pretty.
RAOF	It is, isn't it.	09:30
RAOF	The big question is: do you also find it useful?	09:30
crimsun	Screen 0: not direct rendering capable.	09:31
crimsun	no. I don't find it useful.	09:31
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Fujitsu	The translucency changing can be, if you want to check something behind.	09:31
Fujitsu	The writing on the screen in fire... well, I'm sure I don't need to go over the reasons for that being useful.	09:31
RAOF	Heh.	09:31
AndyP	the marketing folks find it very useful	09:32
RAOF	I'm learning to love "close windows in scale with RMB"	09:32
Fujitsu	I can't seem to get that working.	09:33
RAOF	AndyP: Yeah, I can imagine. It is extremely shiny	09:33
RAOF	Fujitsu: It's the "scale addons" plugin, it might not be enabled by default?	09:33
=== TheMuso looks forward to compiz powering good screen magnification for accessibility.
Fujitsu	RAOF: Noted, but I have that turned on.	09:34
Fujitsu	TheMuso: It already does that. Super+scroll works well.	09:34
TheMuso	Fujitsu: Well better integration with accessibility technologies	09:37
RAOF	Fujitsu: Oh, sorry, it's middle-mouse-button to close windows in scale. RMB should zoom them to the centre.	09:37
RAOF	If neither of these work, bug amaranth :)	09:38
=== Fujitsu graffitis his screen with fire.
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=== AndyP wonders if anyone's done a compiz-esque version of xpenguins yet
=== RAOF wonders what xpenguins does.
AndyP	would be funny to have 3D penguins waddling all over your cube	09:44
TheMuso	IMO compiz by default is a bad idea. Waste of resources.	09:45
RAOF	What resources?	09:45
RAOF	Developer resources?	09:45
Treenaks	the scarce gpu resources!	09:45
TheMuso	graphics/memory resources?	09:45
AndyP	RAOF: basically it animates penguins floating down and landing on your windows and waddling around... pure gimmick	09:45
Treenaks	wait..	09:45
crimsun	Treenaks: do either model=3stack or model=5stack work?	09:45
jussi01	!info xpenguins	09:46
ubotu	xpenguins: little penguins walk on your windows. In component universe, is optional. Version 2.2-4 (feisty), package size 218 kB, installed size 1316 kB	09:46
Treenaks	crimsun: for what?	09:46
crimsun	Treenaks: for said laptop. I've been asked to query you regarding that change.	09:46
crimsun	(audio)	09:46
Treenaks	crimsun: Oh you mean the intel-hda thing?	09:46
crimsun	yes.	09:46
RAOF	TheMuso: But the graphics resources are currently going to waste almost all the time :)	09:46
Treenaks	that's not a laptop :)	09:46
crimsun	Treenaks: ok, but the question remains.	09:47
RAOF	Like RAM, it's only a waste if you don't use it :)	09:47
TheMuso	RAOF: What about keeping power usage down?	09:47
crimsun	precisely.	09:47
crimsun	I disable DRI according to linuxpowertop.org's recommendations.	09:47
RAOF	TheMuso: Ok, that is an issue.	09:48
RAOF	However, I personally don't see much of a difference in power consumption metacity/compiz	09:48
Treenaks	crimsun: 3stack works	09:48
crimsun	Treenaks: and the latter (5stack)?	09:49
Treenaks	crimsun: so does 5stack	09:49
crimsun	ok, do you have a spdif?	09:49
Treenaks	no	09:50
crimsun	what's your physical jack layout?	09:50
Treenaks	crimsun: a stereo jack + mic jack on the front panel.. and some stuff at the back panel	09:52
Treenaks	crimsun: (line out/line in/mic I think, switchable to surround output)	09:52
crimsun	ok, 3stack	09:53
Treenaks	(maybe an extra jack on the back panel for LFE or Center, but I can't see the machine atm)	09:53
crimsun	argh	09:53
crimsun	ok, please let me know when you can see it.	09:53
Treenaks	OK, that'll be tomorrow then, sorry	09:53
crimsun	np	09:53
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Treenaks	crimsun: I've found the user's manual PDF at dell.com	09:58
Treenaks	crimsun: front panel: headphone/mic; back panel: 5 sound connectors	09:58
DktrKranz	could you please have a look at http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5709?	09:59
crimsun	Treenaks: ok, then 5stack. I'll fix it upstream, thanks.	09:59
=== TheMuso just looked in the desktop effects preferences pain, and only saw two options. I thought compiz could do more.
Treenaks	crimsun: (this is a Dell Dimension 9150, for future reference)	09:59
RAOF	TheMuso: It can. You're after "compizconfig-settings-manager", I believe	10:00
crimsun	Treenaks: ok. (Model's unimportant but SSID is important.)	10:00
RAOF	TheMuso: If you run it, you'll see why it's not the default interface :)	10:00
Treenaks	crimsun: where do I find that? :)	10:00
crimsun	Treenaks: lspci -nv\|grep 0403 -A1	10:00
TheMuso	RAOF: Right.	10:00
Treenaks	00:1b.0 0403: 8086:27d8 (rev 01) Subsystem: 1028:01d1	10:00
crimsun	right, 0x102801d1	10:01
Treenaks	RAOF: ccsm "crashes" (apport pops up; program continues to run in "broken" state) all the time for me, and can't set half of the settings	10:02
RAOF	Treenaks: Ah, yes. Fixed in git.	10:02
Treenaks	great :)	10:03
RAOF	(In case anyone wonders, it's very important to actually maintain references to your objects if you want them to hang around)	10:03
Treenaks	RAOF: that, or strangle the garbage collector ;)	10:04
TheMuso	So does anybody know how the compiz/beryl merge is going?	10:04
RAOF	It's done.	10:04
TheMuso	Wow that was quick.	10:04
RAOF	And has been done for ages, apart from stupid politics.	10:04
Treenaks	what's it called now? :)	10:04
TheMuso	Whats the name of it now?	10:04
AndyP	compiz fusion	10:04
AndyP	bit of a blah name	10:05
TheMuso	meh	10:05
=== RAOF was hanging out for just plain "compiz", but "fusion" will do.
RAOF	At least it's not "coral"	10:05
Treenaks	Berpiz	10:06
AndyP	with all the distros calling it desktop effects, i would've thought they'd go somewhere like DFX	10:06
RAOF	You don't know that particular community, obviously :)	10:07
AndyP	i've never been all that interested, mainly because my graphics hardware sucks... or drivers suck :)	10:08
Treenaks	I finally "fixed" my driver problem yesterday	10:09
Treenaks	(bug 20283)	10:09
ubotu	Launchpad bug 20283 in xserver-xorg-video-ati "[X700] Really bad sync on HP NW8240" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20283	10:09
RAOF	All of my driver bugs get worked around with XGL.	10:09
Treenaks	running some register dump tool after logging in resolves the problem, yay workarounds ;)	10:09
Treenaks	RAOF: I like my RANDR	10:09
RAOF	I like my resume-from-suspend :)	10:10
Treenaks	RAOF: sounds like Bugfixing Time!	10:10
Fujitsu	I like my resume-from-suspend and RandR.	10:10
RAOF	Treenaks: Say hello to binary blob!	10:10
Treenaks	RAOF: say hello to radeon :)	10:10
=== RAOF will try out the nouveau drivers sometime soon, but untill then...
RAOF	...nvidia will continue to suck. But suck less than fglrx.	10:11
Treenaks	RAOF: yes, that's why I'm so glad the radeon driver now works for my card (instead of fglrx)	10:12
=== TheMuso realized the other day that ATI hardware doesn't have XVMC support. :S
Treenaks	TheMuso: hardware, or drivers?	10:12
TheMuso	Treenaks: Sorry, drivers.	10:13
Fujitsu	fglrx is really great. Starting a second X server on our main desktop causes the kernel to hang.	10:13
Treenaks	TheMuso: because afaik, they're working on it, just severely understaffed	10:13
TheMuso	Thanks to ATI not even releasing specs for cards that have open source driver support.	10:13
TheMuso	Well I only have ATI hardware that is not supported by the binary drivers.	10:13
TheMuso	i.e one mobility 7500, and 9200.	10:14
TheMuso	Sorry, two 9200s.	10:14
Treenaks	TheMuso: they're now doing nvidia/renouveau-like dumps on r500 cards	10:14
Treenaks	TheMuso: using a tool called "revenge"	10:14
Fujitsu	Hahah.	10:14
TheMuso	Nice.	10:14
RAOF	:)	10:14
Treenaks	tirdc.livejournal.com :)	10:14
TheMuso	Well I don't think any of mine are R500 card	10:14
TheMuso	cards	10:14
TheMuso	anyways, bbl.	10:15
TheMuso	Dinner.	10:15
Treenaks	9200 is r300, I think, 7500 is most likely r200	10:15
RAOF	My partner's 9000 mobility works nicely out of the box.	10:15
Treenaks	so does my 9600 mobility :)	10:16
Treenaks	It's just the FireGL V5000 Mobility that's broken :)	10:16
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=== _guardian is now known as guardian
guardian	hello	11:00
guardian	anyone here knows if alsa 1.0.14 packages will be made available for feisty ? main repositories ? or do i have to enable backports ? or do i have to build from source ?	11:00
Hobbsee	crimsun: ^	11:01
Hobbsee	crimsun: wont be in -updates	11:01
Hobbsee	er, guardian, it wont be in -updates	11:01
ajmitch	poor daniel	11:02
guardian	Hobbsee: so i better try to build it from source than wait ?	11:02
Hobbsee	might be smart	11:02
Hobbsee	may possibly be in backports - but unlikely	11:03
Fujitsu	Unlikely.	11:03
guardian	what decides if something goes into backports or not ?	11:04
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Hobbsee	a) if it builds, b) if it works c) if it breaks for people	11:06
Hobbsee	and alsa is a fiddly beast, and tends to break	11:06
guardian	ok i see, well gonna try to build from source then, this is the only way i can have my emu1212m working so it's worth the hassle	11:08
crimsun	alsa-driver cannot be backported without backporting -lib as well.	11:08
crimsun	your emu1212m likely won't work even with 1.0.14	11:09
guardian	it's reported to work though	11:09
crimsun	_some_ older models do	11:09
Hobbsee	guardian: FYI - crimsun is the alsagod.	11:09
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guardian	Hobbsee: i don't argue people's knowledge :)	11:09
Hobbsee	:)	11:09
crimsun	and asking to backport alsa-driver currently would be silly; it hasn't even entered gutsy yet	11:09
guardian	ok, well i was not aware of that	11:10
crimsun	(officially: waiting on 1.0.14 to enter sid, which is blocked on i18n processing)	11:10
StevenK	crimsun: And unofficially? :-P	11:10
crimsun	StevenK: killing the udev rule completely and letting kmix or mixer_applet2/pulseaudio handle the state restoration	11:11
crimsun	err, missing "testing ..."	11:11
crimsun	guardian: plenty of people use 1.0.14 just fine with Ubuntu 7.04. You're responsible for any breakage, however. :-)	11:13
guardian	sure	11:13
guardian	but since i never built alsa from source, i prefered looking for .debs :)	11:13
crimsun	it doesn't really matter. You'd be overwriting most of /lib/modules/$(uname -r)/kernel/sound/	11:14
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Kmos	Hobbsee: hi :)	12:17
Kmos	https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libapt-pkg-perl/+bug/121924	12:17
ubotu	Launchpad bug 121924 in libapt-pkg-perl "Please sync libapt-pkg-perl 0.1.21 from Debian unstable" [Undecided,Incomplete]	12:17
Hobbsee	hiya	12:17
Kmos	so, i need to change sync to merge ?	12:18
Kmos	:)	12:18
Kmos	but there is ubuntu patches ?	12:18
Hobbsee	Kmos: it may be a sync, it may be a merge. you need to check	12:22
Kmos	Hobbsee: i don't see nothing on ubuntu changelog	12:25
Kmos	that indicates to be a merge	12:25
Hobbsee	Kmos: then you need to say why each of the changes arent needed.	12:27
geser	http://patches.ubuntu.com/liba/libapt-pkg-perl/libapt-pkg-perl_0.1.20ubuntu5.patch	12:27
Hobbsee	Kmos: ie, "the only changes are rebuilds, and build deps x,y,z, which are included in debian" if they actually are	12:27
Kmos	+Build-Depends: perl (>= 5.8.0-6), debhelper (>> 3.0.18), libapt-pkg-dev (>= 0.7.0)	12:28
geser	the only change is a version bump for libapt-pkg-dev	12:28
Kmos	yeah	12:31
Kmos	so maybe isn't needed a merge	12:31
geser	as the last upload was done on Jun 19th bumping the build-depends, I'd at least ask mvo about his opinion on this	12:32
geser	besides such a simple merge is done quick	12:33
Hobbsee	depends what the lowest versoin of apt is in gutsy	12:33
Hobbsee	er,sorry libapt-pkg-dev	12:33
geser	libapt-pkg-dev \| 0.7.2ubuntu2 \|	12:33
geser	I guess the bumped b-d was only needed to make sure that is was build with the recent apt	12:34
Hobbsee	and if that's the same, or higher, than what the debian build dep of it is	12:34
Hobbsee	yeah	12:34
geser	the b-d is still libapt-pkg-dev (>= 0.6.40.1) in the debian package	12:35
Kmos	i'll subscribe mvo to the bug	12:41
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StevenK	# Accepted alsa-driver 1.0.14-1 (source all) Jordi Mallach	01:20
StevenK	Hrm. I thought crimsun was waiting for that.	01:20
=== persia thought it was officially waiting for entry to testing, and unofficially waiting for better pulse audio support to be added.
jerome_	hello all	01:24
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jerome_	I need some help with one package i've submitted to revu	01:24
jerome_	http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5712	01:24
jerome_	I don't manage to get rid of the linda warning	01:25
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jerome_	I've added a python-soya.links file in debian/ to create a symlink	01:25
jerome_	and added a rule to the debian/rules file to delete the file	01:26
jerome_	but as you can see it doesn't work	01:26
jerome_	anyone could help me ?	01:26
persia	jerome_: Does the version of python-soya currently distributed in the archive generate that linda warning?	01:26
jerome_	i will try	01:26
jerome_	yes and another warning that i don't have	01:27
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persia	jerome_: Great! Someone else might still be able to help you resolve this, but if you are only asking for REVU of a package update (please make this more clear in your comments), and there are some bugs you cannot fix in a package, it may still be uploaded. If you cannot solve it, you might want to open a bug against the package, reporting the issue.	01:29
jerome_	persia : ok	01:30
persia	jerome_: Also, as previously mentioned, please attach the diff of the debian directory to bug 117840, to make it easy to review the packaging changes vs. the upstream changes, and add a link from this bug to a REVU upload for the package.	01:32
ubotu	Launchpad bug 117840 in soya "Wishlist: Update python-soya package" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/117840	01:32
jerome_	persia : ok I will do that	01:33
persia	jerome_: Just to explain: the reason you want to do this is that most packages on REVU are new packages, and the upload policies for new packages are much more restrictive than the upload policies on package updates. If a sponsor knows it is a package update, your work will likely be included more easily.	01:35
jerome_	persia : good to know :)	01:36
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jerome_	persia : to do a diff of the two debian folders, is this ok :	01:37
jerome_	diff ./soya-0.12/debian/ ./soya-0.13.1/debian/	01:37
StevenK	jerome_: There's a tool for this, called debdiff	01:37
StevenK	jerome_: debdiff <old dsc> <new dsc>	01:37
persia	jerome_: Better would be `diff -urN ./soya-0.12/debian/ ./soya-0.13.1/debian/`	01:38
jerome_	persia : ok	01:38
tsmithe	anyone able to review the ubuntustudio-* packages on revu?	01:38
persia	StevenK: Using debdiff for package upstream updates requires use of filterdiff to clean up later, which I find hard to explain :(	01:38
persia	tsmithe: I'll take a look. Did wired get an update as well?	01:39
tsmithe	no not yet	01:39
tsmithe	it's tricky....	01:39
persia	tsmithe: OK. ubuntustudio-* only it is then.	01:39
tsmithe	thanks a lot	01:39
tsmithe	persia, re the licence of -sounds, if the packaging is good, i would still like to give it a shot in the archive and let the admins decide re licence. is that feasible?	01:41
jerome_	persia : ok done	01:43
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persia	tsmithe: Yes, but it can be time consuming. You might ask here (or in #ubuntu-devel if nobody steps forward) if someone knows if that license is OK first. Here you'll get good advice, and in -devel, you might get an actual archive admin.	01:43
tsmithe	cool - i'll do that	01:43
persia	jerome_: Thanks. The comments look much better. Could you please upload the diff to the bug report? The pastebin servers regularly purge old posts, and it may be gone before someone looks closely (I'm not a good person to review python packaging).	01:46
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jerome_	persia : ok no problem	01:47
jerome_	done	01:49
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persia	jerome_: Now, you'll want to request sponsorship as described in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing (near the bottom of "Preparing New Revisions"), and someone should look at it within the next couple days.	01:54
=== tsmithe distutilsises asoundconf-ui
jerome_	persia : well scott kitterman already had a first look	01:56
persia	jerome_: True, but it doesn't look like it was uploaded. At this point, you'll want to get another look (perhaps from the same person) in order to get it uploaded (or more comments on why it should not be uploaded yet).	01:58
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jerome_	persia: ok i'm reading everything	01:58
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tsmithe	ragh stupid connection	02:03
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persia	Does anyone have an opinion (or a link to a precedent) on mixing CC-SA and GPL? I know CC-BY variants are not GPL compatible, but I'm not finding an opinion on only -SA from my initial search.	02:40
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polopolo	hello, does someone know how I can add on a .deb join a group	02:45
polopolo	nobody?	02:47
shawarma	polopolo: What do you mean?	02:47
polopolo	I want to package virtualbox, but I don know how I can someone join a group	02:48
shawarma	polopolo: What do you mean by "join a group"? What kind of group?	02:48
gnomefreak	polopolo: you dont need to join a group to build a package	02:48
polopolo	gnomefreak: I need to work the program good	02:49
polopolo	and no errors	02:49
polopolo	wait	02:49
RainCT	polopolo: VirtualBox is already packaged	02:49
polopolo	on ubuntu?	02:50
gnomefreak	yes	02:50
polopolo	I want package the OSE on ubuntu	02:50
gnomefreak	!info virtualbox	02:50
polopolo	and it's not avalible	02:50
ubotu	Package virtualbox does not exist in feisty, feisty-seveas	02:50
gnomefreak	!info virtualbox gutsy	02:50
RainCT	I have it on Feisty	02:50
ubotu	Package virtualbox does not exist in gutsy	02:50
gnomefreak	i swore we had it	02:50
polopolo	http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Downloads	02:50
jerome_	it's from the repo of virtualbox	02:51
polopolo	the PUEL is avalible	02:51
polopolo	the OSE not	02:51
polopolo	and I want upload the OSE on debian unstable and ubuntu	02:51
StevenK	I seriously doubt it would get accepted.	02:51
polopolo	but can someone explain how to join a group with package	02:52
RAOF	You don't. First, you package (possibly with help from here). Then, you put the source on REVU (and possibly mentors.debian.net, but that's debian). Then you try and get someone to tell you what's wrong with it.	02:53
RAOF	Repeat, until there's nothing wrong with the package, and a MOTU can upload the package into Universe (or a sponsor can upload into Debian)	02:54
RainCT	he means have the user where it is installed joining the VirtualBox group	02:54
RAOF	Aaaah. That makes more sense :)	02:55
RainCT	when I installed it it created a 'vboxusers' group and added me to it	02:55
persia	Blech. Offering source as GPL, trademarking the name, and posting notice that the name cannot be used for modified versions is just annoying.	02:55
RAOF	Is that even gpl compatible?	02:56
polopolo	RAOF: there is a GPL vesrion	02:57
RainCT	persia: well, Ubuntu does that too, in minor grade	02:57
persia	RAOF: Yes. I don't think it's GPLv3 compatible, but that's one of the things that annoys some people about GPLv3.	02:57
RAOF	Fair enough. I'm not very sure about those edges :)	02:57
polopolo	oh, virtualbox OSE is GPL V2	02:57
polopolo	based	02:57
RAOF	Still. Annoying, yes.	02:57
polopolo	So no need (or not allowed) to upload it to ubuntu or debian?	02:58
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persia	RainCT: Yes, but I think the situation is different for a distribution vs. a software package.	02:58
Hobbsee	yay, virtualbox!	02:58
polopolo	But I wtill don know how to add the user to the virtualbox group on the computer	02:59
RainCT	I don't see the difference. if it wouldn't everybody could make a different version of it and say it's VirtualBox, when in fact _it is a modified version of VirtualBox_	02:59
polopolo	And if I can upload it to ubuntu	02:59
RAOF	RainCT: Part of the thing is: what constitutes a modified version? Can we patch it to fix bugs? To change behaviour to make it integrate better?	03:00
polopolo	Nobody has the answer?	03:00
persia	RAOF: On a completely different note, are you still working on 119254? If so, you might have the background to properly redirect bug 121940 (I'm not sure if it should be dup'd or rejected (and am someone annoyed that neither "wontfix" nor "invalid" really apply).	03:00
ubotu	Launchpad bug 121940 in kvm "KVM newest version request" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/121940	03:00
RAOF	persia: I am, but have been somewhat delayed by marking.	03:01
Hobbsee	yay, marking.	03:01
RAOF	Oh, hells yes.	03:01
Hobbsee	RAOF: do my exam tomorrow. thankyou.	03:01
persia	RainCT: Most of the packages distributed in Debian or Ubuntu have at least small modifications to make them work better for us. If we had to change all the names of all the software packages in the process, it would be very difficult for users to understand.	03:01
polopolo	Ok, nobody has the answer, fine :(	03:02
persia	RAOF: No worries: I just thought from your comments that 28 might need a little work before the sync (and don't have the hardware to evaluate it properly).	03:02
polopolo	:'(	03:03
RainCT	ah, yes, if it also applies to patches and such small stuff then yes, it's annoying	03:03
RAOF	polopolo: The answer to your question? Check out the kvm package; that creates a "kvm" group	03:03
polopolo	slick	03:04
persia	RainCT: For a distribution, it's less bad: the branding is mostly just branding, so someone could copy all of Ubuntu, and maintain bug fixes to it without needing to rename things (users would still see "Ubuntu" in many places).	03:04
RAOF	persia: No, it should be a straight sync + add epoch. I need to (manually) check the ubuntu changes to the kvm-16 package, although I don't think there are any, bar the epoch.	03:05
RainCT	yes, Ubuntu allows to call it "Ubuntu Remix" iirc	03:05
persia	RAOF: Doesn't it also require coordination with an updated kernel?	03:06
polopolo	creating a virtualbox package is difficault slick	03:06
RainCT	(off-topic: do you know of any program that allows you to minimize other programs to the notification bar?)	03:06
RAOF	Nope. kvm-28 works nicely with our current kernel.	03:06
persia	polopolo: Please note that by packaging virtualbox OSE, you are generating modified source, for which you may not be able to use the virtualbox name.	03:07
polopolo	bigger slick	03:07
RAOF	!!! Really?	03:07
RainCT	does it allow names derived from virtualbox?	03:07
ubotu	Sorry, I don't know anything about really? - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi	03:08
polopolo	I think a gonna jumping	03:08
persia	I'm not sure what is allowed. The statement is only "if you choose to ship custom binaries and/or source code revisions of the product, InnoTek reserves the right to deny use of the trademark VirtualBox", which isn't very promising.	03:09
RAOF	I suggest the name IceBox :P	03:10
polopolo	We talk about GPL2.0 right?	03:10
persia	polopolo: http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Licensing_FAQ	03:10
RainCT	for me this sounds like "you are allowed but if we don't like it we can ask you to rename it"	03:10
polopolo	I package virtualbox OSE and that is based on GPL2.0	03:10
RainCT	I'd try mailing InnoTek to be sure of that, and in the case they say 'no' use a derivated name	03:11
Q-FUNK	who would know about ACPI regressions in Feisty (compared to Edgy) and their workarounds?	03:11
polopolo	even with GPL2.0?	03:11
polopolo	can't belive it	03:12
persia	RainCT: Perhaps. It could also mean "You are welcome to use this code for other purposes, but we don't want to support any virtualbox binaries we didn't build, so you can't call them virtualbox".	03:12
persia	polopolo: Trademark law and Copyright law are different.	03:12
polopolo	SO virtualbox OSE is not based on http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/GPL	03:13
polopolo	but http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/VirtualBox_PUEL ?	03:13
RainCT	polopolo: it's dual licensed	03:14
RainCT	you can redistribute the GPL version but no the PUEL one	03:14
polopolo	@#@#$@, I stop with package that	03:14
persia	polopolo: Being granted a license to use, modify, and distribute software under the GPL allows certain exceptions to Copyright law, but doesn't affect Trademark law.	03:14
polopolo	e-mail me the answer when the e-mail comes	03:14
zorglu_	q. what is the issue with shipping the PUEL ?	03:14
polopolo	I gonna package further with gverse	03:15
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RainCT	polopolo: who has mailed them?	03:18
polopolo	But now I know why firefox now named iceweasel :D	03:18
polopolo	you, or not?	03:18
RainCT	no, should I?	03:18
RainCT	zorglu_: The Personal Use and Evaluation License allows you to download the VirtualBox binaries for personal and academic use and for evaluation, but it does not give you the right to redistribute these binaries.	03:18
zorglu_	RainCT: ok, this is indeed very clear :)	03:19
polopolo	[15:11] <RainCT> I'd try mailing InnoTek to be sure of that, and in the case they say 'no' use a derivated name	03:19
RainCT	that was a suggestion	03:19
polopolo	ah	03:19
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RainCT	but if no problem doing so if you want	03:20
polopolo	you all say that virtualbox OSE uses things with PUEL inside?	03:20
RainCT	eh?	03:20
zorglu_	RainCT: just in case, virtualbox people are on irc and have been very nice everytime i talked to them. so maybe chatting with them could help	03:21
persia	polopolo: No. Virtualbox OSE is indeed completely GPLv2. It's just that the name "virtualbox" is trademarked, and there isn't a clear grant of trademark for redistribution.	03:21
polopolo	ooooooh	03:21
persia	umm... clear grant of license on the trademark for redistribution.	03:21
polopolo	now I really understand it really	03:21
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zorglu_	virtualbox channel with some people from inotek, #vbox	03:23
RainCT	I'm on #vbox-dev	03:23
zorglu_	cool then	03:24
RainCT	found a InnoTek employer there	03:24
persia	employer? employee?	03:24
polopolo	I join	03:24
zorglu_	innotek provides good sw to opensource, lets treat them as nicely as possible :)	03:24
RainCT	(*employee, sorry)	03:25
=== persia notes that InnoTek has the right to collect monies for their software: it may be that they prefer the use of PUEL to encourage paid licensing for non-personal use.
RainCT	but the OSE is only allowed for Open Source projects, or?	03:29
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polopolo	I think not, it's only liniced with GPLV2.0, more not	03:31
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RainCT	oops sorry, I've said nothing :P	03:32
polopolo	:D	03:33
RainCT	lapse, that was another program :P	03:33
persia	RainCT: I think that restricting a GPL version of dual-licensed software to use within open source projects is a violation of the GPL. It would be another violation for a closed source project to actually distribute anything based on the GPL version of something else under a license not compatible with the GPL, but there's no reason it couldn't be used internally by some organisation.	03:36
=== persia points to the removal of linuxsampler from the Debian archive as precedent for this opinion.
=== RainCT looks at polopolo and Hobbsee on #vbox-dev
polopolo	RainCT: so no make virtualbox?	03:37
jussi01	hello everyone	03:37
persia	Hi jussi01	03:37
polopolo	jussi01: hello	03:37
RainCT	polopolo: he said it's ok but he would prefer it they provide the package, or?	03:37
shawarma	persia: The copyright holder of GPL software is free to release the exact same software under a more restrictive license.	03:38
jussi01	qq, if a program is no longer being developed can it be accepted into the repos?	03:38
jussi01	ie. http://qjoypad.sourceforge.net/	03:38
jussi01	hi persia polopolo	03:38
persia	shawarma: Absolutely, I just don't think that the copyright holder can restrict the use of the GPL version by either field of endeavour or by eventual end use (except requiring GPL compatible redistribution).	03:38
persia	jussi01: It's possible, but not encouraged (there needs to be a good reason, such as several active projects that depend on it, etc.).	03:39
shawarma	persia: No, that wouldn't make any sense. You can't say it violates the GPL, though. They've just added an exception to the GPL.	03:39
persia	shawarma: I'm confused. I thought exceptions to the GPL could only be used to grant more rights to the licensee, not to further restrict granted rights.	03:40
jussi01	persia: thank you.	03:41
Hobbsee	polopolo: even better if they want to do it themselves	03:41
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polopolo	No problem for me, as I say, I go further with package gverse	03:41
persia	jussi01: In this case, I'd like to recommend gizmod, which has an active upstream, and a candidate on REVU. There's no GUI for it, but there is a nice python interface for configuration.	03:42
Hobbsee	gizmod is being worked on by pricechild	03:42
shawarma	persia: The GPL is just a license. If it's your software, you decide which license to release it under.	03:43
PriceChild	persia, its in the queue, not just candidate on revu?	03:43
persia	PriceChild: Yep, but most people can't download from the NEW queue, so it's not an ideal place to look for things :)	03:44
PriceChild	ahh hehe gotcha	03:44
=== shawarma takes off
polopolo	ok next question: must I set confirmed on my name on bug #117772	03:45
ubotu	Launchpad bug 117772 in Ubuntu "[needs-packaging] gVerse" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/117772	03:45
persia	shawarma: I agree with that: I just didn't think one could call a license "GPL" if it was more restrictive due to the FSF licensing arrangements.	03:45
persia	polopolo: I'd recommend "In Progress", if you're working on it.	03:45
RAOF	Hey, where can I get the debian source to kvm-16-1?	03:45
RainCT	RAOF: http://packages.debian.org	03:46
RAOF	It's an old version (current is kvm-28-4)	03:46
polopolo	persia: ok	03:46
Hobbsee	bug #111735	03:47
ubotu	Launchpad bug 111735 in svnmailer "Notifier: svnmailer.util.URLDecorator" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/111735	03:47
persia	RAOF: http://snapshot.debian.net/ is usually helpful, but in this case, I suggest reverting http://patches.ubuntu.com/k/kvm/kvm_1:16-1ubuntu2.patch from the Ubuntu source.	03:47
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RAOF	Man, that's a big patch.	03:52
polopolo	and what gonna happen if the package in revu is approved but importfreeze is begon on gutsy?	03:52
RAOF	Oh, because it's against kvm-28	03:52
persia	tsmithe: Are you strongly committed to native packages for the ubuntustudio packages?	03:53
tsmithe	well, i think it makes sense... don't you think?	03:53
persia	RAOF: Hunt around patches.ubuntu.com: there might be an easier patch (I remember something about modular patches, but don't have a link).	03:53
RAOF	Oh, crap. There wasn't a kvm-16 package. The most recent one before that was kvm-14. We then packaged 2 new upstream versions.	03:54
persia	tsmithe: I don't like native packages, so I'm biased. I'm especially wondering about ubuntustudio-sounds, as there appears to be an active upstream for the original source package (and I don't know how much it's been modified).	03:54
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persia	RAOF: In that case, you'd do best to contact the last uploader - perhaps they can provide useful advice.	03:55
tsmithe	persia, i'm pretty ubuntustudio-sounds is a total rewrite of the upstream package: all that's the same is the sound files themselves	03:56
RAOF	persia: Right. Well, that's not getting done before I go to sleep :)	03:56
bluefoxicy	damnit.	03:56
RAOF	bluefoxicy: Hanging out for your kernel-virtual-machine to work?	03:57
RAOF	:)	03:57
bluefoxicy	RAOF: Desktop effects.	03:57
RAOF	Oh, yeah.	03:57
bluefoxicy	Enabling under my account makes the window title bars vanish	03:57
bluefoxicy	If I create a fresh user account and go enable desktop effects there, works perfectly.	03:57
RAOF	Awesome, stale config.	03:58
bluefoxicy	what do I delete	03:58
bluefoxicy	I tried deleting ~/.compizconfig	03:58
RAOF	Alternatively, it's possible that you've built some compiz plugins before?	03:58
bluefoxicy	no, I just reinstalled feisty 5 minutes ago.	03:58
RAOF	Hm.	03:58
bluefoxicy	and compiz has never worked	03:58
RAOF	It'd be in gconf.	03:58
RAOF	gconftool2 --recursive-unset /apps/compiz might do it	03:58
StevenK	Twitch. --recursive-unset	03:59
StevenK	Even the option sounds evil	03:59
RAOF	rm -r sounds better?	03:59
StevenK	Can't pipe that into gconf? :-P	03:59
tsmithe	rargh.... bzr seems to have crapped up on me again	03:59
bluefoxicy	RAOF: thanks.	03:59
RAOF	rm -r .gconf2, I believe :P	03:59
=== tsmithe overwrites a branch, in the only hope of fixing
bluefoxicy	RAOF: There should be an "Attempt to fix errors" button that does that ;)	04:00
tsmithe	this is insanity gone mad	04:00
RainCT	should a debdiff for the patch in bug #68620 be made?	04:00
ubotu	Launchpad bug 68620 in gnome-system-monitor "gnome-system-monitor shows squashed key in resources graphs" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/68620	04:00
persia	tsmithe: I've just looked at upstream Borealis, and it doesn't seem to have any packaging. How is this different from packaging other upstreams (aside from branding)?	04:00
RAOF	bluefoxicy: I believe the phrase is "patches welcome"	04:00
bluefoxicy	RAOF: ;)	04:00
RAOF	bluefoxicy: Also, that's a pretty crazy "attempt to fix errors" action. I'm not sure I'd apply such a patch, were I in a position to do so.	04:01
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RAOF	A better one would, of course, be to not crash on crazy config.	04:02
RAOF	But that goes against the compiz way of ABI incompatibilities and crazy configs.	04:02
=== RAOF is tired, and tired of marking. He doesn't really mean that.
tsmithe	persia, i'm not sure. at the moment, my dsl is down below dial-up speeds, so getting down that 15 meg tarball to compare is a bit difficult. however, the tarball i'm looking at is only about 4.1 meg, so i'm guessing there is a bit of difference somewhere	04:03
bluefoxicy	heh	04:03
persia	tsmithe: Quite a few of the sounds were dropped (causing the size reduction) it just seems odd to me to have an upstream, but not use it. This won't keep me from advocating (if appropriate), but doesn't match my understanding of regular practice.	04:05
tsmithe	ok. i'm sure there was a reason to it, but i have only recently adopted the package, and the original packager is a bit busy with real life things for me to get in touch quickly :)	04:06
persia	tsmithe: No worries - just something to investigate. The last package I saw that had significant similar source (a fork) was rejected by the archive admins at first pass, so you'll want to marshall your arguments in advance.	04:08
tsmithe	righty	04:10
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GamezBeCJ	Hello everyone ... My first time here ...	04:16
bluefoxicy	http://youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ this is way more impressive than what I'm getting now	04:16
persia	GamezBeCJ: Welcome!	04:16
superm1	Hi GamezBeCJ	04:16
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GamezBeCJ	Ubuntu Beryl video in youtube is very impressive !	04:33
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_MMA_	bluefoxicy: Try: http://youtube.com/watch?v=E4Fbk52Mk1w HOWTO: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=481314&highlight=compiz+fusion My little screenshot: http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/7477/screenshotri7.png	04:43
bluefoxicy	ah	04:44
GamezBeCJ	I just installed ... it's beautiful ...	04:46
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bluefoxicy	lol.	04:51
bluefoxicy	switching metacity theme, crashing gnome-xchat	04:51
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DarkMageZ	bluefoxicy, xchat is better :P	04:53
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polopolo	I gonna race on windows xp, bye all :D	05:05
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Kmos	crimsun: are you there?	05:58
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ScottK	persia: In general, putting a statement about copyright of Debian packaging is recommended, but it's not yet "Policy"	06:20
persia	ScottK: No? I thought it was. Thanks.	06:20
ScottK	persia: It's not policy until it's published in an updated policy manual.	06:21
=== persia needs to review the policy manual
ScottK	persia: Of course the policy manual by definition lags since it codifies policy in use, it doesn' t drive it.	06:21
ScottK	Gotta run.	06:22
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jussi01	hmmm...anyone use the medibuntu repos? they seem to be down for me...	06:44
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Adri2000	jussi01: works for me. tell Sp4rKy if it doesn't work for you, he is responsible for medibuntu's servers.	06:52
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jussi01	Sp4rKy: Im getting 404's on all the medibuntu repos from http://medibuntu.sos-sts.com	07:03
mr_pouit	jussi01: please use medibuntu.org (see http://www.medibuntu.org/repository.php) ;)	07:06
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tobiasschul1	hi	07:18
tobiasschul1	i have a problem with dput	07:18
tobiasschul1	dput -f svn/jeliza_2.3.2-0ubuntu1_source.changes	07:18
tobiasschul1	Upload package to host revu	07:18
tobiasschul1	Checking Signature on .changes	07:18
tobiasschul1	gpg: Signature made Sun Jun 24 17:15:04 2007 UTC using DSA key ID C619E867	07:18
tobiasschul1	gpg: Good signature from "Tobias Schulz <tobischulz@arcor.de>"	07:18
tobiasschul1	Good signature on svn/jeliza_2.3.2-0ubuntu1_source.changes.	07:18
tobiasschul1	Checking Signature on .dsc	07:18
tobiasschul1	gpg: Signature made Sun Jun 24 17:15:00 2007 UTC using DSA key ID C619E867	07:18
tobiasschul1	gpg: Good signature from "Tobias Schulz <tobischulz@arcor.de>"	07:18
tobiasschul1	Good signature on svn/jeliza_2.3.2-0ubuntu1.dsc.	07:18
tsmithe	uhoh	07:18
tobiasschul1	Package includes an .orig.tar.gz file although the debian revision suggests	07:18
tobiasschul1	that it might not be required. Multiple uploads of the .orig.tar.gz may be	07:18
tsmithe	!flood	07:18
ubotu	pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)	07:18
tobiasschul1	rejected by the upload queue management software.	07:18
tobiasschul1	Uploading to revu (via ftp to revu.tauware.de):	07:19
tobiasschul1	jeliza_2.3.2-0ubuntu1.dsc:	07:19
tobiasschul1	Error '553 Could not create file.' during ftp transfer of jeliza_2.3.2-0ubuntu1.dsc	07:19
tobiasschul1	Note: This problem might be caused by files already existent on the server.	07:19
tobiasschul1	For the official Debian upload queues, the dcut(1) utility can be used	07:19
tobiasschul1	to remove stale files from unsuccessful uploads.	07:19
tobiasschul1	ok	07:19
man-di	tobiasschul1: DONT DO THIS PLEASE	07:19
=== tsmithe emphasises the please and the not
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tobiasschul1	http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/27040/	07:20
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tobiasschul1	i was uploading the file before, but my computer has crashed	07:21
tobiasschul1	what to do?	07:21
bluekuja	tobiasschul1, ping a REVU admin	07:22
bluekuja	and ask to have it removed	07:22
tobiasschul1	who is a revu admin? ^^	07:22
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bluekuja	they seems to be away, persia you can fix it?	07:23
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bmm	Any motu: ccbuild is looking for it's second advocate or comments to change it, please look at http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5685	09:02
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bmm	Is anybody still online here? Does my IRC work? Persia are you online?	09:50
=== bmm thinks it's quiet, to quiet...
bmm	there is probably a meeting somewhere :-D	09:51
Baby	hi!	09:52
Baby	bmm: I read u	09:52
bmm	Ah, cool IRC is working then :-) Thanks, that's all I needed to know	09:52
Baby	:)	09:53
man-di	bmm: its sunday, on sunday its normally quiet here	09:54
man-di	more quiet then usual at least	09:54
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bmm	Ah, then that's it. I just got back from a weekend away so I'm in for some packaging ;-)	09:55
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icf7	Is the debian policy manual binding for Ubuntu too?	10:14
geser	yes	10:15
geser	there is no difference packagewise if you do a deb for Debian or Ubuntu	10:16
icf7	mmm ... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/CommonPackagingMistakes/ChangingTheOrigTarball contains examples of uscan usage, and http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-source.html#s-debianrules specifies that get-orig-source can be called from every directory (".. leaves it in cwd")	10:19
icf7	how do these two specifications fit? Is there a good example on how to use uscan/implement get-orig-source?	10:20
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ScottK	The MOTU Meeting for Friday does not appear to be on the schedule for #ubuntu-meeting. persia, where you taking care of that?	10:39
=== ScottK goes back to adding regular clamav whining session to the agenda...
crimsun	I've pinged -marketing to get it added to fridge.uc	10:42
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ScottK	Cool.	10:42
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Kmos	crimsun: bug 104848	10:47
ubotu	Launchpad bug 104848 in hwdb-client "Bad english translation on hwdb-client" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/104848	10:47
Kmos	check this out	10:47
crimsun	I'm busy ATM>	10:47
Kmos	ok	10:47
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nixternal	added the MOTU meeting to the Fridge	10:58
crimsun	thanks.	10:58
nixternal	no problem. Thanks for the +1 by the way!	10:59
ScottK	nixternal: I guess the quality of your sucking up has improved.	11:00
nixternal	hahah	11:00
crimsun	oh crap, did I type '+' instead of '-'? Damn, better amend that.	11:00
nixternal	figures ;p	11:00
coNP	- + - = + ?	11:00
crimsun	nixternal: do most (subjective) KDE 3 apps have a Close or Quit pushbutton?	11:01
crimsun	ScottK: ^ , too	11:02
nixternal	when you say subjective, you mean something like a small widget and not a full windowed app?	11:02
nixternal	err, s/widget/applet	11:02
crimsun	nixternal: no, "subjective" above means "in your sampling of KDE 3 apps"	11:03
crimsun	I'm not sure there is a quantifiable method of determining "most" for everyone.	11:03
nixternal	oh...that would be a no, file->exit (alt+q), and the big X up top	11:03
crimsun	nixternal: ok, and do you generally use alt+q or the window manager's Close?	11:04
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nixternal	depends in if I am at the keyboard or not really, but mostly, the X does it for me, or alt+f4/q	11:04
crimsun	ok, so a Qt application generally would need to offer a File menu, too	11:05
nixternal	yes	11:05
crimsun	ok, thanks.	11:05
crimsun	I'll adjust my app	11:05
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crimsun	currently I'm simplying relying on the window manager's Close	11:05
nixternal	crimsun: if it is just somethin small that allows something like an enable/disable option, then you don't need the filemenu	11:05
crimsun	however, consistency within the environment is very important	11:06
nixternal	a quit button and the X would be enough	11:06
crimsun	well, my concern is whether "most" KDE 3 apps even offer a Quit pushbutton	11:06
nixternal	there is/was a KDE GUI guide, but last I looked, it seemed a little outdated	11:06
nixternal	I am trying to think of one with a Quit button	11:06
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crimsun	nixternal: http://www.trilug.org/~crimsun/Screenshot.png	11:09
crimsun	nixternal: top right, Qt3. Bottom right, Qt4.	11:09
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nixternal	crimsun: that is about perfect..I think maybe an "OK" button?	11:13
=== nixternal looks at some applets that are similar
crimsun	nixternal: do most KDE 3 apps have an OK pushbutton?	11:13
nixternal	the configuration windows typically do	11:14
crimsun	ok, and this holds true in both KDE 3 and KDE 4?	11:14
crimsun	is the OK pushbutton always enabled/active?	11:15
nixternal	actually, in your case, since there is only one setting to apply, then maybe just an "OK" and a "Cancel"	11:15
nixternal	let me check with someone really quick	11:15
nixternal	OK is always enabled, y es	11:15
crimsun	err, I'd rather be consistent with the KDE X UI	11:15
crimsun	if most configuration dialogs have Apply and Ok, then I need both pushbuttons	11:15
crimsun	if most only have Ok and Cancel, then I need those	11:16
crimsun	etc.	11:16
crimsun	what I'm attempting to avoid is have this dialog do something completely different from, say, KMix dialog windows	11:16
nixternal	heh, config dialogs have "help", "defaults", "OK", "apply", and "cancel"	11:16
nixternal	but those dialogs have more than 1 view for configuration as well	11:17
icf7	crimsun: Apply is "do the action, but don't close the window"	11:17
crimsun	ok, "defaults" is not sensible in this case	11:17
crimsun	icf7: yes, that's its current semantics	11:17
crimsun	as implemented in displayqt[34] .py	11:17
ScottK	crimsun: It looks reasonable to me. Agree with icf7. If you are going to close the window as well as apply, I think it should say OK, not Apply.	11:18
crimsun	ScottK: I agree there, but I need to know if Ok _and_ Apply pushbuttons appear in _most_ windows	11:18
ScottK	crimsun: I'll look around a bit.	11:19
crimsun	I shouldn't need a Help action; the app should be so straightforward that Help would be superfluous	11:19
crimsun	IMO the app is straightforward, but what do I know? I do this junk all the time. ;)	11:20
nixternal	crimsun: http://developer.kde.org/documentation/standards/kde/style/dialogs/simple.html	11:20
crimsun	Thus, a non-debugger's perspective is vital	11:20
nixternal	so you would offer them the selection, and then just an OK button	11:21
ScottK	crimsun: I just looked at several of the system settings type windows and they all had either Apply or OK depending on if they would close the window or not.	11:21
ScottK	crimsun: I don't think that there is any application too trivial for Help.	11:21
AndyP	the gnome sound prefs has a close button and making a selection applies the change immediately, but that's gnome	11:22
superm1	is there a way to make debconf think that a package isn't configured, so that next time another package gets installed, it is forced to run the postinst script again?	11:22
superm1	well i guess s/debconf/apt/	11:22
crimsun	AndyP: Toby's GTK+ 2 UI uses slightly different semantics.	11:23
crimsun	AndyP: His changes are active (written to ~/.asoundrc.asoundconf if appropriate) upon combobox change.	11:23
crimsun	I'm working with slightly different semantics, since I have to use Qt/KDE	11:23
crimsun	in this latter vein, I need at least an Apply which is only active upon combobox change	11:24
AndyP	understood	11:24
nixternal	crimsun: when you are done, I would like to see your code for this app, there is something similar I would like to do as well...did you use Python or C++?	11:24
crimsun	nixternal: launchpad.net/asoundconf-ui.	11:24
nixternal	rock on	11:24
crimsun	PyQt3 and PyQt4	11:24
nixternal	exactly what I wanted you to say	11:24
crimsun	my branch is ~motu/trunk	11:24
crimsun	Toby's is ~tsmithe/trunk	11:24
crimsun	ScottK: what do you feel a Help action would add?	11:25
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ScottK	crimsun: I'm not sure exactly since I haven't been following the details, but even though it seems obvious, it ought to say something about what the program does and perhaps something about how one might decide what selection to make.	11:27
crimsun	there are ToolTips	11:27
crimsun	like "Apply"'s is "Commit change"	11:27
crimsun	but I'm not sure how to go about the latter suggestion of yours	11:28
ScottK	Up to you, but I don't think anything is too trivial for help.	11:28
ScottK	I'm all about the theory, implementation is a detail left to you ;-)	11:28
crimsun	well, I'm all for Help; I'm just having a difficult time seeing how it actually clarifies anything	11:28
ScottK	Maybe for your initial release have a help stub asking people to e-mail you with questions they were expecting to find an answer to in the help.	11:29
crimsun	this is going to be even more fun when I try to fix GNOME's control-center mess	11:29
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ScottK	Heh	11:30
crimsun	and it gets even _more_ fun when I have to explain that the change only takes effect for newly executed alsa apps	11:30
crimsun	bah, libglademm2.4 is still broken	11:30
crimsun	well, thanks for input, everyone	11:31
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athena	what's the deal with package signing? whenever I build something, apt throws a gpg error	11:53
YannDinendal	hi	11:54
icf7	athena: Do you have a private key imported to gpg? Use a gpg frontend of your choice to verify it.	11:54
athena	icf7, yes, I do	11:54
athena	when I run dpkg-buildpackage, it even askes me for my password at the end	11:55
athena	but when I stick them in a local repository and try to apt-get them, apt says that they can't be authenticated	11:55
icf7	athena: This is fine.	11:55
icf7	athena: How should they? You must import the public ones first to authenticate them.	11:56
athena	how?	11:56
geser	that are two different signatures	11:56
athena	hmm?	11:56
geser	the signing at packaging building is used for uploading	11:56
athena	then how do I sign them so that they can be downloaded?	11:57
geser	the signature that apt checks is from the release file from the repository	11:57
geser	what do you use for your repository?	11:57
athena	uh, cp and vim	11:58
geser	and how do you generate the Packages file? with vim?	11:58
minghua	athena: http://wiki.debian.org/SecureApt	11:58
athena	dpkg-scanpackages/dpkg-scansources	11:58
minghua	and I don't think it's an error, just a warning, which you can ignore	11:59
athena	yes, but I'd need --force-yes, which is not good to use in scripts	11:59
geser	create a release file with e.g. apt-ftparchive	12:00
geser	a create a detached signature for it	12:00
geser	better would be to use a repository software which does it for you	12:01
athena	oh? is there anything light?	12:01
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RainCT	good night	12:08
minghua	apt-get(1) man page says there is an "--allow-unauthenticated" option	12:08
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minghua	I've never used it, but it looks like what you wanted instead of "--force-yes"	12:08
TheMuso	Hey folks.	12:08
minghua	hello TheMuso	12:08
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ScottK	Hello TheMuso	12:13

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