[12:16] somerville32: persia said it was important to wipe debian/changelog because the upstream one was never released === macd_ [n=d@adsl-6-126-12.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === macd [n=d@adsl-6-126-12.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === asac_ [n=asac@debian/developer/asac] has joined #ubuntu-motu === lbm [n=lbm@0x555373ab.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:40] Good Evening All === reggaemanu_ [n=manu@ARennes-257-1-104-237.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-motu === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-motu === neversfelde [n=neversfe@nrbg-4db443a5.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:57] Morning everyone. [12:58] morning Fujitsu [12:58] Hi Fujitsu [12:59] Hi Nafallo, geser. === RoninX341 [n=etank@ubuntu/member/etank] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:11] morning Fujitsu [01:11] Hi LaserJock. === Fujitsu wonders when -changes will wake up again. === Fujitsu also wonders why everything depending on libgconfmm is now dieing with an undefined symbol error. That's not meant to happen, is i [01:13] *is it? [01:13] hmm, is -changes dead? I hadn't really thought about it [01:13] -changes died along with changelog-closes-bugs after the last LP rollout. [01:14] I'm 100% mutt now so email has been weird [01:14] I decided I didn't like IMAP [01:15] Libraries are meant to change their soname when they drop symbols or similar, aren't they? [01:17] if public symbols are dropped then the so-version should be changed [01:17] Right. But libgconfmm didn't, so now everything depending on it is dead. [01:18] :( [01:19] What is the best thing to do? Bump the so version and rebuild everything, or just rebuild everything? [01:22] rebuilding would fix it for now but partial upgrades were still broken, so the correct solution would be to bump the so version and rebuild [01:23] Thought so. [01:23] LaserJock can fix it with his newfound superpowers! [01:23] Nyahah. === persia [n=persia@ubuntu/member/persia] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:25] Hi persia === minghua [n=minghua@ubuntu/member/minghua] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:25] Hi geser [01:25] Hi persia. [01:25] hi Fujitsu [01:26] Hey folks. [01:27] Hi TheMuso. [01:27] Hi TheMuso [01:27] Hey persia. [01:27] You guys may be interested in knowing that I have set up a shared apt cache for all my sbuild instances. [01:28] How're you doing it? Bind something over /var/cache/apt/archive? [01:28] Well its an NFS share, so just mounting it directly as NFS. [01:28] it seems to be working fine. [01:29] Ah. [01:30] This is because I have sbuild set up on three boxes. [01:30] Nifty. [01:30] And have a download quota === porthose [n=chatzill@24-119-100-168.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:33] TheMuso: what is the advantage of your solution over apt-proxy? === ryanakca [n=ryan@ubuntu/member/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:35] minghua: I don't have to have custom sources.list files for all the sbuild/LVM instances I have. [01:35] And its a lot more trivial to set up IMO. [01:35] TheMuso: good point on custom repos [01:36] triviality depends on what you already have, I suppose [01:37] Yeah. === apachelogger [n=me@amarok/rokymotion/apachelogger] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:43] c [01:43] ugh [02:03] If debian/copyright is autogenerated by debian/rules, may it be removed in debian/rules clean:? I'd think that this would result in no debian/copyright from apt-get source packagename and would therefore be bad, but wanted to check before complaining. [02:05] if there is a debian/copyright.in, I don't see any problem removing debian/copyright in clean === etank [n=etank@ubuntu/member/etank] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:07] minghua: For this package, there's a debian/copyright-files/ which contains some portions of the copyright, and a shell script to collect the remainder from various places in the source code. [02:15] that sounds weird [02:16] that's...special [02:16] AndyP: Yep. That's why I want other opinions :) === AndyP tackles another package with an upstream debian directory [02:23] Well, I guess I'll go with the principal of minimal changes then (and not accept deletion of debian/copyright as a undocumented change in a debdiff). === LaserJock wonders what powers Fujitsu thinks he has === AndrewB [n=andy@freenode/helper/ubuntu.member.AndrewB] has joined #ubuntu-motu === effie_jayx [n=valles@ubuntu/member/effie-jayx] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:42] cd /usr/include/ [02:43] gah wrong terminal === jrib [n=jrib@upstream/dev/jrib] has joined #ubuntu-motu === bluefoxicy notices Gutsy uses KVM 16, makes a bug requesting latest version (28 currently) before feature freeze. [03:06] bluefoxicy: Were the issues reported with 28 mentioned at the bottom of the comment thread for bug 119254 resolved? While KVM needs work, I'm not sure a sync will be better. [03:06] Launchpad bug 119254 in kvm "Fails to create KVM context on linux-image-2.6.22-6" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/119254 [03:10] Fujitsu: changelog-closes-bugs was working again for me ~20 hours ago. [03:11] persia: what issues? [03:11] black screen, I'm not sure what guest OS [03:11] I know with KVM24 I loaded operating systems and with 16 I load absolutely nothing [03:11] KVM16 is slower than straight emulation by a billion times ;) [03:11] and hangs barely into run. [03:12] KVM16 reminds me of bochs actually <.< [03:12] persia: but maybe a direct sync isn't the answer [03:15] ScottK: They broke at the same time, but they're not both fixed. === Fujitsu notes that Compiz is doing strange stuff... when I set the number of desktops to 4, I get a plane rather than a cube. Any other value gives an appropriate shape. [03:16] Fujitsu: OK. Just thought I'd mention that one of them was fixed. I'd rather have had them fix "Triaged" bugs not showing up in standard searches. [03:17] Fujitsu: Desktop on a triangle? [03:20] /dev/mapper/system-mirror 60G 60G 40K 100% /srv/mirror [03:20] Humm. [03:20] bluefoxicy: That's about it: 16 is definitely bad, and 28 (or similar) likely better. I'm just tempted to mark bug 121940 as invalid, as I'm not sure it will fix the various problems, and based on the KVM changelog, needs coordination with the kernel team. [03:20] Launchpad bug 121940 in kvm "KVM newest version request" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/121940 [03:20] I think the time has come for me to stop mirroring edgy. === persia [n=persia@ubuntu/member/persia] has left #ubuntu-motu [] === cypher1 [n=cypher1@c-69-249-127-102.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:57] 1/aw Away === bashelie1 [n=bashelie@srv122.hosteur.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === _neversfelde [n=neversfe@nrbg-4db4463d.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ryanakca [n=ryan@ubuntu/member/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-motu === DarkMageZ [n=richard@ppp59-167-30-126.lns1.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:31] ScottK: Yeah, that pretty much makes Triaged useless for now. === cynics [n=cynics@123.118.0.94] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:31] StevenK: Or octagonal prism, or whatever. [04:31] (my SSH session timed out and I didn't notice, hence the slow responses) [04:37] Hm, why's desktop-effects our problem now? === jrib [n=jrib@upstream/dev/jrib] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Knightlust [n=Dax@ubuntu/member/knightlust] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:45] Fujitsu: Are you referring to the compiz demotion? [04:46] Fujitsu: because it's redundant [04:46] ScottK: compiz itself seems to remain in main. [04:46] see system->preferences->appearance [04:47] Oh. I thought I saw some reference to it being demoted and the new merged bling would be in main. [04:47] th new merged bling is in main [04:48] compiz-compcomm-plugins-main | 0.0.0+git20070612-0ubuntu1 | http://nz.archive.ubuntu.com gutsy/universe Packages [04:48] that part is yet to be moved [04:48] hence the -main suffix :) [04:50] compiz-fusion-plugins-* it is now. [04:51] yay [04:52] the virtual package not provided by anything? === IanC26 [n=IanC26@2002:cb36:1c7e:4:216:6fff:fe39:ff6e] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:55] william@irranat:~/MOTUing$ dpkg -L compiz-fusion-plugins-main | wc -l [04:55] 73 [04:55] Looks fairly real to me. [04:57] Can anyone make sense of bug #120152? [04:57] Launchpad bug 120152 in archivemail ""Permission Denied" when archiving from /var/mail directory" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/120152 === ScottK looks === effie_jayx [n=valles@ubuntu/member/effie-jayx] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:59] Fujitsu: Nice how he attaches a new copy of the program as a "patch" [04:59] That's what I thought. [04:59] It might have been easier to work out what the heck he was talking about if there was a patch/ === Fujitsu uses Won't Fix for the first time. [05:03] Fujitsu: I can guess what he might mean, but that sounds reasonable. [05:04] What's he saying? That the user running archivemail can't read root's mailbox? That sounds like a correct behaviour. [05:04] No candidate version found for compiz-fusion-plugins-main [05:05] Fujitsu: I think he's saying if a root user runs archivemail it changes the permissions so the regular user can't read it anymore. [05:05] ajmitch: How laggy is nz.archive? It's even on my local mirror. [05:05] Ahh. [05:06] StevenK: Probably slowed by the snow. [05:06] StevenK: it's a little odd, since I'm pulling from both nz.a.u.c & a.u.c === ajmitch even synced his local mirror yesterday === Fujitsu synced his a few hours ago. [05:07] That's probably why I've got the new compiz-fusion crack! [05:07] lucky you! [05:07] Does this mean we can kill off beryl soon? [05:07] please === Arrogance [n=aks@ottawa-hs-209-217-123-27.d-ip.magma.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ajmitch is currently waiting for debmirror to finish grabbing source crack [05:08] Oh yay, let's request that a Tcl/Tk application use GNOME file dialogs. === ryanakca_ [n=ryan@ubuntu/member/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-motu === tonyyarusso [n=anthony@ubuntu/member/tonyyarusso] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:12] we could just kill tcl/tk === javier_galicia [n=Javier@189.130.232.119] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ScottK files a bug against LP for Triaged not showing up in standard searches... [05:25] ScottK: Already done. [05:25] Marked High, not Critical, for some stupid reason. [05:26] Bug #121636 [05:26] Launchpad bug 121636 in malone "when a bug is marked as triaged it disappears" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/121636 [05:26] Fujitsu: I just hit send. I'll dupe mine to that one. === lukaswayne9 [n=lukas@c-68-84-69-12.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === Monk-e [i=guido-de@c529dd229.cable.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:33] It's quite ironic, considering what Triaged is meant to be used for. [05:38] Fujitsu: I suspect it's symptomatic of the FUBAR nature of that entire set of changes. Whoever designed (I use the word losely) it had one very narrow perspective on the work flow and got very little detailed input. After all, once a bug is "Triaged" triagers don't need to see it anymore because they are done. [05:38] Not that I'm bitter or anything. [05:39] I guess that should be loosely and not losely... === javier_galicia [n=Javier@189.130.232.119] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:46] ScottK: that person would be Henrik, I think === cypherbios [n=cypher@ubuntu/member/cypherbios] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:48] Burgundavia: The impression I had was he heard about it at the last minute, but I don't know, nor do I really care. It's symptomatic of the problems in close source proprietary development processes. [05:48] Whoever messed up, it isn't really their fault. It's a fundamental process issue. [05:48] I agree [05:48] You can't develop something useful to the community in isolation from the community. [05:49] raise it at the next Tech Board === man-di [n=mkoch@dyndsl-080-228-193-079.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:50] Burgundavia: There's really no point. The will open source LP when/if Canonical wants to. Ubuntu's use of proprietary tools is a significant negative in my book, but not one (yet) that outweighs Ubuntu's advantages. [05:50] Oops [05:50] The/They [05:50] ScottK: you can raise the issue of process and suggest some solutions, however [05:51] Burgundavia: The only real solution is to open up LP and they're very clear that's not in the cards. [05:52] As long as it's developed in a back room we'll just get told to ignore the man behind the curtain. [05:52] given the operating constraints, you can fix certain things === Fujitsu hasn't dared to participate in a discussion like this recently. [05:52] Except we already have stuff like an official MOTU-LP liaison and he wasn't consulted. === ScottK is never reluctant to open his mouth (I know I didn't need to tell you that). [05:53] I used to not be, then I got a lot of important people annoyed. === Fujitsu engraves `WTF' into bug #119469 [05:54] Launchpad bug 119469 in firefox-launchpad-plugin "all of the previous bugs, plus malformed line 40" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/119469 [05:55] Fujitsu: Just mark it Triaged. That'll take care of it. [05:55] Yeah, true. [05:56] And why is gutsy-changes still screwed? How'd they manage to break changelog-closes-bugs? {sync,backport}-source? Aren't they meant to have some tests? [05:56] Burgundavia: Given the operating constraints there's very little that can be done to fix things on this side of the interface. LP is a black box we can't see into. It's really up to them. If I thought there was something I could do that would make a difference, I'd be glad to go to the tech board, I just don't see the point. [05:57] Fujitsu: Trust them. They know what they are doing (no need to open source this project yet). [05:57] ScottK: I think this is how a lot of people feel, but you're the only one who is particularly vocal about it at the moment. Good to see somebody has taken on my old task! === acm_ [n=ameinke@p54BC1CFB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu [06:07] Burgundavia: Or to put it differently, if someone wants me to invest my time in making a proprietary program better, I have a consulting rate for that. [06:12] ScottK: you do not think of Launchpad as a service? [06:12] :P [06:13] joejaxx: No. I think of it as a critical part of the toolchain of the Linux distribution I use. [06:14] interesting [06:17] Building free software on a proprietary toolset is not a point of comfort for me. [06:17] It's why I use DaD instead of MoM for merges even though the later is more mature. === ryanakca [n=ryan@ubuntu/member/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-motu === CarlF1 [n=carl@adsl-75-57-182-186.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [06:32] joejaxx: I believe LP should be Free. period [06:32] Personally, I've yet to see any arguments for keeping it proprietary that make sense to me. [06:33] Ubuntu is "just a service" [06:34] I'm sure most here know my opinion on the subject. === gouki_ [n=gouki@ubuntu/member/gouki] has joined #ubuntu-motu [06:35] In that case, I should just quit working on making their service better. [06:35] ScottK: did you see the comment from sabdfl about his reasonings? [06:36] The problem is that Ubuntu has benefits that outweigh the downside (ie. non-free infrastructure). It's a really neat trap. === Monk-e [i=guido-de@c529dd229.cable.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-motu [06:36] Flannel: I've seen comments that are going into the LP FAQ - probably the same. They don't make sense to me. [06:36] +1 for what Fujitsu said. [06:36] ScottK: the ones about anti-balkanization? [06:37] alcohol and hacking do not mix! [06:37] Yep. [06:37] to both of you. [06:37] nixternal: That doesn't help your MOTU application any. [06:37] ScottK: Hahahah. [06:37] !nixternal [06:37] Oh no! The pointy-clicky Vista lover has arrived! He's rumoured to be giving out free money, too! [06:38] well, where do I begin...Debian packaging talk, GPL talk, Ubuntu talk....and lots of home brewed and micro brewed beer..BarCamp is some good stuff [06:38] ScottK: what about the centralization argument doesn't make sense? [06:38] Flannel: If he's worried about lots of things called Launchpad running around, he can stop that with trademark. I see no difference if an upstream that we link to runs Bugzilla or another isntance of LP. [06:38] Flannel: the argument is bullsh*t [06:39] isntance/instance [06:39] ScottK: He's not worried about thename, he's arguing that if you have LOTS of LPs, you lose the benefit of integration. [06:39] The argument is a little valid. They don't want anybody running Bugzilla or their own LP. They want everyone to use *their* LP. [06:40] Flannel: So. If there is benifit in integration, people will run on Canonical's instance of LP. If he's wrong, they won't. No need to make it proprietary if the benifit is real. [06:40] gotta remember, Sourceforge is not proprietary/non-free now as well...so LP isn't alone which I find odd [06:40] s/not/now [06:40] Very true. [06:40] s/benifit/benefit/g [06:41] ScottK: his argument is that it needs to achive critical mass for the benefits to be apparent. Beofre that point, people won't want to hassle with the centralization, even if in the long run it's more cost effective [06:41] He won't achieve critical mass with it non-free. [06:41] Not a chance. [06:41] code.google.com (Chris DiLoser) says the reason they created code.google.com is not to replace Sourceforge but to have a free system that is similar...yet Google never made it free [06:41] Flannel: As long as it's proprietary, there is a 0% chance of me hosting a project on it. [06:42] I was talking to Ben Sussman today about it [06:43] Flannel: Since I package my stuff for Ubuntu, I can see actual benifit to being in the same infrastructure and using the tools, but the proprietariness is to big a negative. [06:43] ScottK: I see where you're coming from. I don't think I have an opinion on it personally. I was just wondering what your POV was. [06:43] nixternal: Well, that's similar to LP, but Canonical isn't quite as evil. [06:44] "yet?" [06:44] ;) [06:44] That was implied. [06:44] Right. [06:44] hehe [06:44] well, all day I heard that "Ubuntu is going to sign a deal as well, but they will sugar coat it" [06:44] I've already decided that my business is to important to accept the business risk of using proprietary tools. [06:45] and I got bitchy with a few people who were making those statements while using "windows" [06:46] people bringing Microsoft products to an open source party/event...well they need to swim with the fishies :) [06:46] then again, they could get online, network manager was once again hosing me with gutsy === Acksys [n=acksys@cpe-071-070-081-128.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [06:46] That's what you get for running Gutsy. === Acksys [n=acksys@cpe-071-070-081-128.sc.res.rr.com] has left #ubuntu-motu [] [06:46] yup === ScottK has two hard drives for the laptop. One is always stable. === Fujitsu runs Gutsy because the laptop isn't overly critical, and it's good practice to fix it if it breaks. === ScottK still has Feisty on the development drive, but is about ready to dist-upgrade it. === ScottK still runs Dapper on his desktop. [06:49] nixternal: where were you? [06:50] Burgundavia: Vista users group. [06:50] BarCamp Chicago [06:50] i just run windows 3.11 and forget about it all [06:50] hahahaha [06:50] stop lying, you dos lover! [06:51] ahh, interesting [06:51] so people figure Ubuntu is going to sign a deal, eh? [06:51] I think, even if Mark wanted to, he cannot, due to the optics [06:51] most of them Google employees [06:51] which I called all but 1 idiots [06:51] optics? [06:51] Ben Sussman is cool, the rest are morons [06:52] I am like you guys use Ubuntu, call it Goobuntu or some garbage, make all kinds of changes, yet don't share them... [06:52] nixternal, i've seen it, the only changes they make are artwork [06:52] I seen it tonight...quite more than artwork [06:52] pre-dapper they had some ltsp kernel patches [06:52] Ben uses it on his IBM lappy [06:53] then thats Ben's customizations, i have personaly b ooted to it from a pxe boot to my lappy at googleplex, the default boot is only artwork changes [06:54] it was what he had on a CD...he showed some cook SVN stuff him and a few others have done there as well [06:54] s/cook/cool === ScottK thought is was Chicago slang. [06:54] heh [06:54] Chicago homebrewed beer [06:55] http://images.imbrandon.com/lolcats/lolcatsdotcomib5v9oe8urvsgmh0.jpg [06:55] bwhahaha [06:55] hahah, that is great [06:55] nix if it was on a CD its far from "official" goobuntu, goobuntu is ONLY pxeboot or install from pxeboot [06:55] 12 of 21 is better [06:55] ahhh, he was talking about pxeboot === RAOF [n=chris@123-243-65-41.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-motu [06:56] he probably just rolled a goobuntu branded custom cd, not hard but not what most of them run anyhow [06:58] he runs Kubuntu mainly, but was showing off some of the stuff Google Chicago is working on..the SVN stuff was the coolest [06:58] :) [06:58] What did they do with it? [06:58] what sort of SVN stuff? [06:58] hell, the top 3 SVN devs all work Google Chicago now === imbrandon goes back to rolling a pr0n-buntu [06:58] lol j/k [06:58] imbrandon: just use PCLinuxOS :) [06:58] hahah [06:58] no way [06:58] No, just use warty. [06:59] dude, it is the perfect LivePr0nCD [06:59] thats art not pr0n, i mean real pr0n === tuxmaniac [n=tuxmania@unaffiliated/tuxmaniac] has joined #ubuntu-motu === acm__ [n=ameinke@p54BC1799.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu === acm__ is now known as acm [07:00] localized history stuff, some of the good things from other projects like Monotone, Mercurial, Git, Darcs and such [07:00] we have a picture of the SVN god with a Bazaar dev :) [07:01] What, so svn might not suck at merging sometime? [07:01] RAOF: exactly a point he talked about [07:01] he even said the best right now is Mercurial [07:02] Impossible. Sucky merging is an inherent SVN thing... it just wouldn't be SVN without it. [07:02] hehe, true, we wouldn't know what to do if it didn't suck [07:02] all these years of learning how to hack your way around the suckiness [07:03] I've tried to merge precisely one svn branch, and it was a nightmare [07:03] I got lucky once, with an SVN merge that is [07:03] Because I had foolishly moved files around, no knowing that SVN would chuck a screaming hissy fit. [07:04] oh ya [07:04] or even delete them with rm -rf and have it go "wft did it go" [07:04] wtf did it go, classic [07:05] So, my svn merging is now done with bzr-svn, which works :) [07:06] bzr's merging it good. [07:06] Well, anything is good compared to Subversion. [07:06] Indeed. Manually applying diffs is good, compared to svn. [07:06] That's what I do. [07:07] That's what I ended up doing, yeah. === Fujitsu notes that the LP discussion died out. [07:08] So, on further inspection, I think the mplayer-use-compiz patch needs reworking before it is in any way acceptable to upstream. [07:09] Fujitsu: Hard to have much of an argument when we all pretty much agree. [07:09] True. [07:09] Fujitsu: it seems to always die out, because we end up saying the same thing...for 2 years they have been planning on open sourcing it when it was "finished" === ScottK doesn't expect it. [07:09] Right. And then we just wait. And wait. [07:09] only thing I have seen take 2+ years to finish was Windows [07:09] And wait. [07:09] nixternal: Heheh. === ScottK just counts it as a cost of using Ubuntu. === ScottK also hopes if there are any CC members present (cough Burgundavia) they are taking notes. [07:10] registering a project is easier in code.google.com and sourceforge than LP is...LP has a bunch of confusing mumbo jumbo === Fujitsu somehow incites active opposition to LP. [07:10] Hah, the CC won't have any power over that. [07:10] Fujitsu: You didn't start it this time. [07:10] ScottK: I think Corey has hounded them enough on the aspect...you can guarantee that one! [07:11] wah? [07:11] Fujitsu: No, no one outside Canonical does, but I think it's important that sabdfl continue to hear that the community (at least us anyway) haven't rolled over and gotten happy with the situation. [07:11] I had an interesting argument with jono and Riched while in Sevilla [07:12] about 10 of us went out for dinner and for about half the meal, only the three of us were talking [07:12] I'm sure there are a few of Canonical people watching us in here. [07:12] s/ of// [07:12] I would have loved to have been there for that one..it seems the Canonical people have no problem defending the actions [07:12] Speaking of jono, I haven't seem him around much lately. [07:12] I just read his blog, said he is in California for FooCamp === jussi01 [n=jussi@a81-197-38-57.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #ubuntu-motu [07:13] Hello All [07:13] I raised the issue of LP going away like bitkeeper did [07:13] hello jussi01 [07:13] hehe, bitkeeper rocked [07:13] and was told to not worry and that I shoudl "just trust Mark": [07:13] Burgundavia: How'd that go? [07:13] Gaaaaah. [07:13] Trusting Mark doesn't last for more than a couple of years. [07:14] funny thing though, everyone at the even tonight think Mark is the next great thing for open source and free software [07:14] He probably is. [07:14] s/even/event [07:15] the FSF guys even said that...the FSF guys said that RMS is just to extreme and has been preaching the same thing on a lot of dead ears for 20 years now [07:16] hi joejaxx === jussi01 [n=jussi@a81-197-38-57.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #ubuntu-motu [07:16] i've been wondering how canonical is going to make money from launchpad [07:16] I raised the issue that Mark does get bored === LaserJock notes he missed some good LP ranting but is too lazy to read the backlog [07:17] and was "is there any sign of that?' [07:17] ?" [07:17] AndyP: Sell the service to the hordes of distributions that are clamouring to use it. [07:17] basically I was patronized by Jono and Riched and it pissed me off [07:17] LaserJock: Aw... [07:18] LaserJock: we should create a summarizer script for you :P [07:18] the plan seems to be: keep LP closed source -> get everyone using launchpad -> ??? -> profit! [07:18] Word's AutoSummarise! [07:18] autmatically detects certain keywords [07:18] AndyP: Right. He's obviously a /. fan. [07:18] Fujitsu: :P [07:18] I think they are thinking of running LP ala Collab.net style [07:18] for internal dev teams [07:18] LaserJock: Is Bug #121636 on your MOTUs are really annoyed with this LP bug list? [07:18] Launchpad bug 121636 in malone "when a bug is marked as triaged it disappears" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/121636 [07:19] ScottK: no [07:19] Burgundavia: Collab.net? I know not of it. [07:19] hosted svn basically [07:19] LaserJock: Please add it. It makes Triaged mostly useless at this point. [07:19] Fujitsu: it is what the oOo project uses [07:19] read Michael Meeks for about how crap it is [07:19] ScottK: More than mostly! [07:20] Fujitsu: I just said mostly because of the cases where we WANT the bugs to disappear. [07:20] ScottK: I know, I got rid of a bug using it ;-) [07:20] Heheh, like that one I mentioned earlier. [07:20] Exactly. [07:20] Won't Fix is convenient too. [07:20] i think i read somewhere that there was a plan to form a business model around the big-picture data that can be mined from LP, but i might be wrong [07:20] AndyP: I've never seen a reference to that, and I've looked hard. [07:21] AndyP: Dunno. Don't care. As long as it's a black proprietary box, I feel no responsiblity to do anything other than bitch and moan. [07:21] LaserJock: haha :P [07:21] +1 ScottK [07:21] I couldn't care less if it was opensourced [07:22] LaserJock: yes you do [07:22] crap woudl be fixed faster [07:22] no it wouldn't [07:22] it would things like release management [07:22] would have, rather [07:22] ya, like 2.5 years ago a bug was created to add support for tracking berlios.de bugs, and ummmmm it is still confirmed/wishlist [07:22] LaserJock: Developments wouldn't get dumped on us out of no where. [07:23] although joey has done amazing work [07:23] nixternal: I suppose there are no projects that are in main that need it. [07:23] well, the bcm43xx garbage is [07:23] OSS is not a panacea, but managed correctly, it would LP a better place [07:23] wow, you guys really know how to gripe.... :P [07:23] LaserJock: I don't particularly care about the source myself, but if the development process were more open, we'd all be better off. [07:23] jussi01: lol [07:23] jussi01: We're very experienced. [07:23] of course we do, we practice hard [07:23] I've seen a whole lot of crappy OSS projects [07:23] hehe [07:24] jussi01: most of us have been doing this for at least a year, closing in on three for some of us [07:24] this is a once a week discussion almost now [07:24] 2 for me [07:24] LaserJock: crappy projects are caused by crappy management [07:24] pure and simple [07:24] LaserJock: Sure. Not saying open source is a panacea, but that LP would be better than it is now. [07:24] sure [07:24] LP had major issues until joey came along [07:24] you don't know that though [07:24] LP has better management now that Joey has the wheel. [07:24] heheh, look like i walked in at the wrong time... [07:24] Fujitsu: If this is better management, I feel for you that've been around here a while. [07:24] as you say, it is management, IMO, more than openness that's the problem [07:25] but management only solves part of the problem [07:25] LaserJock: But the community can help if the management is more open. [07:25] it's *the* big problem for me [07:25] now development is at least more consistent [07:25] ScottK: what community? [07:25] who's going to jump on the LP train? [07:25] all teh bloody python lovers we have [07:25] LaserJock: Those of us interested in using it. [07:25] Burgundavia: hahahhaa [07:25] everybody who wants to fix it [07:25] do you think they could? [07:26] LaserJock: stupidity is not a good argument to us [07:26] use, rather [07:26] LaserJock: As an example, the idiotic idea to only let -devs set in progress lasted one day once it was in the light. [07:26] I seriously wonder if there would be very many people interested in it [07:26] "your are all too stupid to work on our shiny app" [07:26] Burgundavia: that's not what I'm saying [07:26] LaserJock: every single Ubuntu dev and user is, by the very definition, interested in LP development [07:26] I'm saying that it being open doesn't mean all of a sudden everybody starts fixing bugs [07:26] If LP is open, more projects are likely to use it. [07:27] no, no it doesn't [07:27] By having more projects, there's a wider development community. [07:27] I would do the same thing I'm doing now [07:27] if it is open, maybe we can get GNOME or Debian using it [07:27] filing bugs [07:27] perhaps KDE [07:27] LaserJock: No, not necessarily fixing more bugs, but maybe LP devs stop doing stupid stuff because they don't understand the community. [07:27] none of them are going to use a closed source app to track bugs [07:27] ScottK: I don't see how that would change with it being opensourced [07:27] http://wiki.python.org/moin/CallForTrackers [07:27] Burgundavia: that's a fair point [07:28] Burgundavia: That's a good page. [07:28] I can see adoption being hurt by it being open sourced [07:28] one of the reasons python does not LP for a bug tracker is because IT IS CLOSED SOURCE [07:28] Oh. [07:28] That's a new version. [07:28] sorry s/open/closed/ [07:28] LaserJock: If it's open and the development is open, more of us will be able to see what they are planning and maybe save them the trouble of inflicting something stupidon us. [07:28]