[02:39] <jgamio> hi does the xubuntu meeting finshed ?
[08:35] <highvoltage> @schedule EDT
[03:06] <evand> @schedule New_York
[03:06] <ubotu> Schedule for America/New_York: 28 Jun 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 29 Jun 07:00: MOTU Team | 03 Jul 15:00: Technical Board | 04 Jul 16:00: Edubuntu | 05 Jul 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Jul 11:00: Kernel Team
[03:07] <Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
[03:07] <ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 29 Jun 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 29 Jun 21:00: MOTU Team | 04 Jul 05:00: Technical Board | 05 Jul 06:00: Edubuntu | 06 Jul 06:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 11 Jul 01:00: Kernel Team
[03:07] <Hobbsee> hi evand
[03:07] <Hobbsee> 2 hours.  hmmm.
[03:08] <Mithrandir> *sigh*; I was sure it was later today.
[03:08] <evand> good whateveritisdownthere Hobbsee
[03:09] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: awww
[03:09] <Hobbsee> evand: evening.  it's 11pm
[03:09] <evand> ah, good evening then
[04:51] <mdz> good day, all
[04:52] <fabbione> hello
[04:52] <seb128> hey mdz
[04:52] <evand> hi
[04:52] <pitti> pong
[04:52] <BenC> mdz: hey
[04:52] <bdmurray> hullo
[04:53] <ogra> whoops ...
[04:53] <kylem> er, early
[04:53] <calc> hello
[04:53] <BenC> kylem, rtg_: ping
[04:54] <kylem> slow.
[04:54] <rtg_> I'm here.
[04:54] <heno> hello
[04:54] <BenC> cool, kernel team accounted for
[04:54] <rtg_> BenC: Is your clock fast?
[04:55] <BenC> I've got that amd64 fast clock bug in my brain today
[04:55] <dholbach> hiya
[04:56] <shawarma> o/ Hi all
[04:57] <cjwatson> hi all
[04:57] <dendrobates> hey y'all :-D
[04:57] <mdz> mathiaz,kees: ping
[04:58] <mathiaz> mathiaz: pong
[04:58] <mdz> mathiaz: oh, hi
[04:58] <cjwatson> doko is excused due to a rehearsal
[04:58] <cjwatson> everyone else on my team here
[04:58] <mathiaz> hi all
[04:58] <kylem> i'm actually here, despite the agenda.
[04:58] <dendrobates> mathiaz: in France?
[04:58] <mathiaz> dendrobates: yes
[04:59] <cjwatson> yes, the calendar is mistaken about kyle's travel plans
[04:59] <mathiaz> dendrobates: seems that they have internet connection in this country
[04:59] <kylem> cjwatson, "travel" heh, it's like 15 minutes that-way.
[04:59] <kylem> ;-)
[05:00] <mdz> anyone seen Keybuk recently?
[05:00] <stgraber> hello
[05:00] <pitti> mdz: summoning powers :)
[05:01] <kylem> Keybuk, got your mail sorted?
[05:01] <kwwii> hi
[05:02] <mdz> ok, let's get started
[05:02] <mdz> it's good to see everyone!  feels like a long time
[05:02] <Keybuk> kylem: nope, nowhere near
[05:02] <kylem> Keybuk, bummer.
[05:02] <mdz> I was traveling and then on holiday, glad to be back though
[05:03] <mdz> today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070628
[05:03] <mdz> it looks like no agenda items were submitted in summary activity this week
[05:03] <kylem> i think shawarma has one. heh.
[05:03] <shawarma> Yeah.
[05:03] <mdz> I guess that means no one has any problems at all! ;-)
[05:03] <Riddell> hi
[05:04] <shawarma> We're getting more and more requests for updated Dapper install CD's since a lot of new, fancy SCSI and RAID controllers aren't support.
[05:04] <mdz> I echo pitti's hearty appreciation for the efforts which went into tribe 2
[05:04] <cjwatson> shawarma: coincidentally ... ;-)
[05:04] <pitti> wow
[05:04] <mdz> shawarma: Ubuntu 6.06.2 is under discussion right now
[05:04] <keescook> hug-powered!
[05:05] <mdz> shawarma: tentative target is August
[05:05] <shawarma> mdz: Oh, really? Where do I join the fun?
[05:05] <cjwatson> probably late Aug
[05:05] <Hobbsee> yay pitti!
[05:05] <agoliveira> I've helped a bit and could follow closelly the huge effort as well! Well done!
[05:05] <cjwatson> the main thing to do for 6.06.2 is to identify what should go into it
[05:06] <fabbione> i did propose to have a session at UDS to discuss exactly this problem
[05:06] <cjwatson> we've been circulating a couple of ideas but have only *just* got started
[05:06] <BenC> maybe we should create a linux-backports-modules-2.6.15 for dapper
[05:06] <fabbione> but the session was never scheduled
[05:06] <mdz> what we likely want is a list of targeted bugs
[05:07] <shawarma> Where has this discussio been going on? (i.e. which mailing list have I failed to subscribe to?)
[05:07] <mdz> shawarma: no, a very preliminary discussion just began with a few people via private mail
[05:07] <BenC> Could the server team come up with a list of network and storage drivers with bug numbers?
[05:07] <asac> will 6.06.2 be a release update ... or a new branch that will coexist?
[05:07] <cjwatson> asac: the former
[05:07] <mdz> to collect input on how the process will work
[05:07] <kylem> BenC, the problem primarily is how to re-qualify the release.
[05:08] <kylem> backporting subsystems is *guaranteed* to break working configs.
[05:08] <cjwatson> we definitely need to bear in mind support for people upgrading dapper
[05:08] <BenC> I don't want to backport subsystems for sure :)
[05:08] <cjwatson> adding hardware support in stable releases has been a thorny topic in the past, to say the very least
[05:08] <BenC> network controllers are pretty easy, and scsi is not bad...sata will likely be a no-go though
[05:08] <pitti> we already had that discussion on the ML, and the basic outcome was that it was too crazy/too much work/not doable at all, right?
[05:08] <mdz> kylem: we'll consider the needs on a case-by-case basis, and determine what needs to be done
[05:09] <mdz> kylem: things which are too risky for the benefit they provide will have to be put aside
[05:09] <cjwatson> I don't think we can promise to support everyone's new+shiny hardware in 6.062
[05:09] <mdz> as always for SRUs
[05:09] <amitk> Greg K-H wrote abot this very thing the other day: http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/enterprise_kernel_future.html
[05:09] <BenC> yeah, I read that
[05:09] <kylem> amitk, yeah, greg, arjan and i talked a bit about this at the LF summit
[05:09] <BenC> pretty much describes the problems we have, like any distro
[05:09] <agoliveira> SRUs?
[05:09] <pitti> BenC: linux-backports-modules-2.6.15 sounds much better wrt. breaking existing setups; that will limit the type of drivers which can be backported at all, right?
[05:10] <dholbach> agoliveira: stable release updates
[05:10] <BenC> not much help in that document though :)
[05:10] <kylem> this was a big session with vendors at LF.
[05:10] <agoliveira> Thanks
[05:10] <mdz> BenC: yeah, only his solution fails to mention the 'con' of 'new upstream kernels are full of regressions'
[05:10] <shawarma> cjwatson: I'm just afraid we'll lose ground due to lacking hardware support in our LTS's.
[05:10] <shawarma> The alternative is more frequent LTS's, but that brings in entirely different issues.
[05:10] <pitti> cjwatson: and TBH we should never even publicly announce this as a goal
[05:10] <kylem> mdz, did you catch that session?
[05:10] <mdz> kylem: no, I'm afraid not
[05:10] <kylem> mdz, yeah, i think it was friday afternoon.
[05:10] <kylem> basically it was vendor versus distro bitchfest 2007
[05:11] <BenC> pitti: yeah, limits it to just drivers, no subsystems, unless we get frisky too drop new subsystem replacements in updates/, which is probably bad :)
[05:11] <agoliveira> kylem: very well put :-D
[05:11] <kylem> greg summarizes it pretty well in that blog entry though.
[05:11] <mdz> so, to come back to 6.06.2
[05:11] <mdz> the answer is, stay tuned, we'll begin the process soon
[05:11] <pitti> BenC: agreed; so we can backport drivers which don't depend so heavily on big and/or changing kernel ABIs; if that covers wifis and graphics drivers (nvidia/fglrx), that's already something
[05:12] <mdz> I want to take advantage of this cycle to formalize the process a bit more and get it documented
[05:12] <kylem> wifi is one of the biggest problems.
[05:12] <BenC> mdz: for kernel side, I propose a linux-backports-modules-2.6.15, with appropriate meta packages...anything beyond that is too much work/testing for an Aug release
[05:12] <mdz> BenC: that unfortunately doesn't solve the problem, which is that people can't install
[05:12] <BenC> mdz: make that package default on the CD?
[05:12] <mdz> s/the/an important/
[05:12] <fabbione> we will need appropriate changes to the installer to
[05:12] <cjwatson> BenC: then for 6.06.3 we'd need a linux-backports-backports-modules-2.6.15
[05:12] <BenC> just need to seed it and include it
[05:13] <cjwatson> for the stuff that breaks people using the previous set of backports
[05:13] <mdz> BenC: we're not going to spec out a technical solution here; it is a big hairy mess
[05:13] <BenC> cjwatson: why? Just update the same package?
[05:13] <cjwatson> for the same reason we don't install l-b-m by default in the first place
[05:13] <shawarma> cjwatson: which was.. ?
[05:13] <shawarma> cjwatson: fear of breaking stuff that already works?
[05:13] <cjwatson> we plan to put stuff in it that may well break people's working setups
[05:13] <shawarma> Right.
[05:14] <shawarma> hrm..
[05:14] <cjwatson> the entire reason to put something in l-b-m is that it shouldn't go in a regular kernel update
[05:14] <BenC> if we fear it that much, then we are saying we can't do it at all for .02?
[05:14] <mdz> please, guys
[05:14] <pitti> shawarma: a module could then be autoloaded in favor of another one which was used before
[05:14] <mdz> this is not the time to argue technical details
[05:14] <BenC> ok
[05:14] <mdz> I will circulate a plan and ask for comments on it
[05:14] <shawarma> pitti: Sure.
[05:14] <mdz> and we'll take it from there
[05:14] <shawarma> \o/
[05:15] <cjwatson> done
[05:15] <mdz> are Canonical folks all sorted for the sprint?
[05:15] <cjwatson> oh, I still need to book the train travel
[05:15] <agoliveira> Yep
[05:15] <fabbione> yeo
[05:15] <cjwatson> (all 15 of it)
[05:15] <dendrobates> mdz: yep
[05:15] <Riddell> do we have a page to put agenda items?
[05:15] <shawarma> Yup.
[05:15] <keescook> mdz: yup
[05:15] <calc> yes
[05:16] <Riddell> (I can't think of any just now but if it do)
[05:16] <iwj> cjwatson: It's no cheaper to book if I'm not mistaken.
[05:16] <asac> yes
[05:16] <kylem> cjwatson, get keybuk to fly you in? :)
[05:16] <shawarma> Riddell: It's on the sprint page on the wiki.
[05:16] <Keybuk> kylem: unlikely with the current UK weather :-/
[05:16] <Keybuk> I can't fly above clouds
[05:16] <cjwatson> iwj: it would get clan off my back ;-)
[05:16] <asac> agoliveira: dito :)
[05:16] <pitti> looking forward to it
[05:16] <fabbione> what's the name of the hotel btw?
[05:16] <mdz> ok, good
[05:16] <iwj> pitti: The snoring ?
[05:16] <agoliveira> asac: You're screwed :-D
[05:17] <Keybuk> fabbione: Rochester Grand iirc
[05:17] <Keybuk> it's a nice little place
[05:17] <BenC> mdz: how should I coordinate setting aside time for canonica-qa/kernel-team and such?
[05:17] <pitti> iwj: absolutely :) seb128 doesn't snore fortunately
[05:17] <fabbione> Keybuk: ok, there are directions but no name :)
[05:17] <Keybuk> Rochester Grange, sorry
[05:17] <mdz> heno: do you want to raise any questions here regarding workflow for bugs, especially escalations?
[05:17] <shawarma> Riddell: Beneath the list of people.
[05:17] <mdz> BenC: GMTA
[05:17] <Keybuk> http://www.grangehotels.com/grange_rochester_hotel/index.htm
[05:17] <fabbione> Keybuk: thanks
[05:17] <Riddell> shawarma: oh yes
[05:18] <heno> mdz: no I think I'll do that in individual conversations, thanks
[05:18] <Keybuk> (at least, I'm assuming that's where we are -- claire hasn't actually confirmed yet)
[05:18] <mdz> ok
[05:18] <pitti> thanks for that, I'll need it for directions from Gatwick
[05:18] <iwj> Oh, no, cjwatson got there first.
[05:18] <Keybuk> pitti: I've already added directions from all major airports to the wiki ;)
[05:18] <fabbione> Keybuk: directions looks like KK, but there are a bunch of hotels there..
[05:18] <pitti> Keybuk: ah, sweet
[05:18] <amitk> mdz: has Intel confirmed that they will be sending people?
[05:18] <mdz> amitk: yes
[05:19] <amitk> benc: in that case we need to schedule some time with them as well?
[05:19] <agoliveira> amit:At least for 2 or 3 days there'll be some of them with us.
[05:19] <mdz> amitk: add it to the wiki page just to keep it on the radar
[05:19] <BenC> amitk: yep
[05:20] <shawarma> I have an e-mail where it says PArk Plaza Riverside?
[05:20] <mdz> there will be plenty of UME work to be done in any caes
[05:20] <mdz> case
[05:20] <mdz> Keybuk: no, it's a different hotel
[05:20] <mdz> clan will update the wiki page
[05:20] <Keybuk> mdz: yeah, I just asked and found that out :p
[05:20] <Keybuk> the map on the wiki says the rochester, which is what confused me
[05:21] <mdz> that's the general "office and stuff nearby" map
[05:21] <dendrobates> shawarma: me too, is the server team in a different hotel?
[05:21] <mdz> shawarma: same
[05:21] <agoliveira> BTW, is this hotel far from the office? Can we go by foot?
[05:21] <kylem> re: sprint; is the heathrow express worth the 15GBP?
[05:21] <mdz> dendrobates: everyone is in the park plaza riverside as far as I'm aware
[05:21] <shawarma> dendrobates: That would be rather silly. :)
[05:21] <Keybuk> kylem: no, takes you to the wrong train station
[05:21] <fabbione> kylem: no, subway > *
[05:21] <Keybuk> kylem: paddington is an arse to get anywhere from
[05:22] <cjwatson> I'm just checking into the details but I doubt the Stansted Express is worth it either
[05:22] <agoliveira> fabbione: tube ;)
[05:22] <kylem> Keybuk, yeah but i want to take a picture of the bear statue :P
[05:22] <iwj> cjwatson: Err, the Stansted Express and the Gatwick Express are much more sensible.  They're basically mostly normal trains.
[05:22] <calc> url/address for PPR?
[05:22] <Keybuk> Gatwick Express is utterly non-sensible
[05:22] <Keybuk> it's twice as much as the ordinary train, and almost identical times to the same station
[05:23] <Keybuk> and isn't any nicer
[05:23] <mdz> inquiries regarding the sprint should be directed first to the wiki, and then to clan (with a wiki update for any new information obtained via the latter)
[05:23] <cjwatson> iwj: hmm, ok. seems to take you into Liverpool Street though which probably isn't ideal
[05:23] <mdz> it looks a little out of date, but that should be fixed soon
[05:24] <iwj> cjwatson: Oh, yes.
[05:24] <mdz> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/+specs shows a lot of unknown statuses
[05:25] <mdz> please remember to update LP with your progress, so as not to give the impression of falling behind
[05:25] <Mithrandir> I'll nag the Intel guys to do so for their specs too
[05:25] <Mithrandir> (for mobile)
[05:25] <mdz> thanks
[05:25] <pitti> mdz: what status to give to an informational spec like bzr-best-practices? (this is cuurently 'unknown')
[05:26] <agoliveira> They have being working on them latelly.
[05:26] <agoliveira> I mean, the Intel guys.
[05:26] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: oh, sure, they just need to update the status of the spec.
[05:26] <mdz> pitti: for an informational spec, it should be the progress of the writeup.  if it's published and appropriately linked, it's implemented
[05:26] <pitti> mdz: alright, thanks
[05:26] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: I'm not unhappy with their progress, just with not knowing the status.
[05:26] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Righto
[05:27] <mdz> are there any questions or issues with spec progress or reporting?
[05:28] <mdz> feature freeze is 16 August
[05:28] <Mithrandir> Mobile are behind on writeups, but I'm prodding people to have them ready, hopefully this week.
[05:28] <Keybuk> (suggests a 1 minute panic'd silence :p)
[05:28] <mdz> right, mobile got a late start for reasons beyond our control, and is playing catch-up
[05:29] <mdz> server projects were also off to a late start, but the team is working steadily as well (thanks!)
[05:29] <shawarma> \o/
[05:30] <shawarma> Go us!
[05:30] <shawarma> :)
[05:30] <iwj> I can't seem to find this mail about the sprint hotel address.
[05:30] <shawarma> iwj: I got it early because I've got sprint next week, too.
[05:30] <Keybuk> iwj: there isn't a mail yet
[05:30] <mdz> iwj: clan is on it, don't worry
[05:30] <agoliveira> shawarma: That's self confidence!
[05:30] <shawarma> iwj: Server sprint, that is.
[05:30] <agoliveira> ;)
[05:30] <iwj> Oh, OK, that's fine then.  Just so long as it hadn't got lost ...
[05:31] <mdz> ok, is there any other business for the meeting?
[05:31] <mdz> is there anything deeply buried in my inbox I should be aware of?
[05:31] <mdz> (I'm almost caught up, actually)
[05:31] <ogra> does anyone know whats up with -changes ?
[05:32] <mdz> not quite, but the appropriate LP folks have been informed and are working on it
[05:32] <fabbione> it works?
[05:32] <ogra> it seems to flip/flop between Changed By ad MAintaianer adresses at the moment
[05:32] <mdz> ogra: known issue
[05:32] <Riddell> mdz: your UDS e-mail wasn't clear to me, are we ment to forward names of invitees?
[05:32] <fabbione> ogra: if you did an upload with Closes LP: #1234, check with with cprov. some of them have gone lost
[05:32] <mdz> Riddell: yes
[05:32] <pitti> ogra: I reported it to the soyuz guys already
[05:33] <Riddell> mdz: ok
[05:33] <pitti> fabbione: I mailed u-d-a@ about it actually
[05:33] <ogra> well, i only noticed the Maintainer being used ... but just saw the flip/flop today, so i thought i should mention it :)
[05:33] <fabbione> pitti: ok
[05:33] <pitti> ogra: hm, did it actually change *back* to Maintainer?
[05:33] <fabbione> pitti: mail is not around yet...
[05:34] <mdz> pitti: yes, it's behaving strangely.  but known.
[05:34] <ogra> well i see a bunch that uses Maintainer ...
[05:34] <mdz> sounds like we can safely wrap up the meeting, then
[05:34] <ogra> and then there are dokos uploads :)
[05:34] <pitti> fabbione: it was days ago already
[05:34] <fabbione> pitti: i am talking to the uploads it lost today?
[05:34] <pitti> fabbione: that would be news to me
 fabbione: yes, something went wrong in soyuz when closing the respective bug
[05:35] <pitti> fabbione: doesn't it close bugs for packages that were held in the unapproved queue until thawing?
[05:35] <fabbione> this was about one hour ago
[05:35] <pitti> erk
[05:35] <fabbione> it's fixed
[05:35] <pitti> fabbione: ok, good to know
[05:35] <fabbione> but it might have lost not just my upload
[05:35] <pitti> fabbione: I only applied the fix in-place in soyuz, it might have been clobbered by  the new rollout
[05:35] <dholbach> thanks everybody :)
[05:35] <fabbione> pitti:  i don't know the details.. -ENOACCESS to the toys
[05:36] <mdz> right. back to your regularly scheduled soyuz chatter. :-)
[05:36] <mdz> adjourned, thanks everyone
[05:36] <fabbione> bye bye
[05:36] <pitti> thanks everyone
[05:36] <evand> thanks
[05:36] <agoliveira> Bye all
[05:36] <ogra> thanks
[05:36] <keescook> bye
[05:36] <asac> thanks all
[05:36] <kwwii> bye all
[05:36] <pitti> that was easy today :)
[05:36] <mvo> bye!
[05:36] <mathiaz> bye all
[05:36] <BenC> bye everyone....good job on tribe-2
[05:36] <dendrobates> bye
[05:36] <amitk> bye
[05:40] <bryce> cya!
[12:03] <AndyP> @schedule london
[12:03] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 29 Jun 12:00: MOTU Team | 03 Jul 20:00: Technical Board | 04 Jul 21:00: Edubuntu | 05 Jul 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Jul 16:00: Kernel Team | 11 Jul 13:00: Edubuntu