/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/06/29/#ubuntu-mobile.txt

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rustyrobr, you around?02:35
robryes02:35
robrrusty, yes02:35
rustyhows it going02:35
robrrusty, what's up?02:35
rustyjust arrived at my hotel and checking email02:35
robrrusty: running into networking issues on the menlow with the USB-Ethernet dongles...linksys works but i can't get the SMC device that ships w/ the knockdown kits to work02:36
rustyon the flight to Chicago i did some homework on creating init ram disks with mkinitramfs02:36
robrrusty: cool...is it something you want to add before or after tomorrow's M3.1 release?02:36
rustyrobr, is this exposing a hardware issue with usb, maybe?02:36
rustyrobr, i wouldn't feel comfortable pushing a change till after i get back... maybe, unless i get some good work time tomorrow02:37
rustybut... 02:37
robrrusty: not sure, it could be either at the moment...USB HW is still being debugged from what i understand, but i'm suspicious that one brand works and the other doesn't02:37
rustymkinitramfs has come a long way since i really used it02:38
robrrusty: i need to test with a different SMC device02:38
rustyactually, i think we can really simplify things02:38
robrrusty: that would be good02:38
rustyrobr, so... you hooking up asit with remote access?02:39
robrrusty: we could have Alek look at it if you're busy...i'd like to have him add a couple things to project-builder including CD images and kernel command-line options02:39
robrrusty: now that i've got networking working with the Linksys, it's possible for Asit to remote login, although he never responded to my email02:40
rustyrobr, you think this needs to be in for tomorrow?02:40
robrwhich part?02:40
rustyredoing the initrd creation02:40
robri'd think it could wait02:40
rustyrobr, that's what you were talking about, right?02:40
robri think what i was talking about Alek doing could wait until after tomorrow02:41
robrbut i know people are asking for ISO image support02:41
rustyrobr, asit did reply02:42
robrrusty, ahh...i see it now...it was burried in my inbox 02:44
robrrusty, i'll respond to him in a bit with an ip address he can ssh into the menlow box02:44
robrrusty: asit should now have what he needs02:58
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bspencertko: you online?  I'm looking for a good control panel applet example.09:30
bspencertko: A guy on my China team wrote a short how-to for control panel applets.  But has problems with the refactored code.09:30
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bspencerMithrandir: hello, TGIF09:51
bspencerMithrandir: am I supposed to change my blueprints to "review" or "pending approval" ?09:52
bspenceronce I'm done?09:52
Mithrandirbspencer: yes.09:53
Mithrandirand then I'll go through them and either give you feedback about stuff that needs changing, or approve it.09:53
bspencer"review"09:54
bspencernot "pending approval"09:54
Mithrandireither is fine, since we're not doing reviews, just the approval bit.09:56
Mithrandirusually, when we do this at a conference we start out by having them go to review where they're then checked for clarity, style, grammar, etc by a person who doesn't actually know about the spec itself.09:56
Mithrandirthe approver, on the other hand, is supposed to make sure it fits into the big picture and do a technical valuation of the spec.09:57
bspencerok.  I just chagned them to review09:57
Mithrandirthat's fine, I'll get to it.09:57
bspencerMithrandir: a build question for the master09:57
bspencerwe are using pbuilder create --distribution gutsy  (internal builds)09:58
bspencerand want our chroot'd environ to be able to pull from universe09:58
bspencercurrently it only pulls from main09:58
bspenceris there a way to indicate this when running pbuilder ?09:58
Mithrandiradd  --othermirror "deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu gutsy universe" to the command line09:59
Mithrandir(with the quotes)09:59
bspencerdoes that also include "main" by default?09:59
bspenceror also include ..." gutsy main universe..."09:59
Mithrandirmain is included by default, always.10:00
bspencerok.  much thanks10:00
loolMithrandir: Cool, thanks for merging from Debian10:04
Mithrandirlool: my pleasure; thanks for taking the effort to make it easy for me to do so10:07
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bspencerasac, Mithrandir question about our browser for mobile10:23
asac_bspencer: pong10:23
bspencerwe are starting from firefox pristine files (2.0.0.4)10:23
asac_hi10:23
asac_ok ... when will we release?10:23
bspencerwe were planning to create a new project called Mobile Internet Browser 10:23
asac_maybe its better to go trunk?10:23
bspencerbut wondered if we should use existing pristine files in cluded in Firefox ubuntu package 10:23
bspencerasac_:  you mean not use Firefox tag ?10:24
bspencerwe used firefox tag to pull from Mozilla base10:24
asac_no ... develop against 3.010:24
bspencerusing cvs.10:24
bspencerah10:24
asac_at best we could get kind of bzr import or something10:24
asac_but i think that is more than we can hope for10:24
bspencerjust so we don't spend time banging our heads on new stuff.10:25
bspencerwe figured get something working with 2.0.0.4 base, then move to 3.0 after it was working mainly10:25
asac_right10:25
asac_3.0 will be out in january10:25
bspencerok.  I think we can certainly jump when it is ready.  Maybe for next Ubuntu.10:26
asac_so if we develop for the future we should go that ... if we want to hack something now ... we need to stay on 1.8 branmch10:26
asac_1.8 branch == firefox 2.010:26
bspencerI don't know much about the difference or how much effort it will be to port what we are changing10:26
bspencermainly chrome, some GTK calls10:26
bspencerwe visited with Moz guys and kind of thought 1.8 would be fine.  They said 1.9 gecko in November10:26
asac_depends ... gecko engine has gotten a huge rewrite ... so porting anything that we adapt in gecko might cause headaches10:27
asac_... though i don't think we will really touch things that are hard to port10:27
bspencerbut if we release something in October that isn't done is that a headache?10:27
asac_yeah novembmer is too optimistic10:27
bspencersure10:27
bspencerso 1.8?10:27
asac_yes if we want to release in october ... yes10:28
bspencerok.  then... should we important a completely independent set of files for our browser ?10:28
asac_ok lets go back to topic :)10:28
bspencerdisregarding the existing Firefox package also containing pristine files of the same10:28
bspencers/important/import10:28
asac_i would think so10:29
bspencerme too.  that's our plan10:29
asac_though most files will just be identical10:29
mdzbspencer: good evening, up late or traveling?10:29
bspencerwe want to get a package started even if it looks curiously like Firefox at first.10:29
asac_but that is done for all mozilla products ... so consider it a best practice :)10:29
bspencermdz: up late.  internal deadline tomorrow10:29
bspencermdz:  (and Mithrandir 's *#@! deadline for blueprints)10:29
bspencerasac_: ok.  :)10:30
mdzasac_: do you know yet whether it makes sense for us to make this part of our firefox source package, or something separate?10:30
asac_for now lets do it separate10:30
bspencermdz: yes, my question10:30
asac_so we can release independently10:30
asac_... imo we should try to import source tree to bzr or something10:30
bspencerand we were also wanting to ensure we did the licensing stuff right.  10:30
Mithrandirasac_: the LP people are very cautious about importing non-trunk.. :-/10:30
bspencerso changing all the names from Firefox to "mobile internet browser" or such10:30
bspencerand then the help looked copyrighted...not sure how much we can alter or include10:31
bspencerit says "firefox" in many places.  Also about box changed.10:31
Mithrandirbspencer: hm, MozCo should be fine with you changing it massively if you change the name, I thought.10:32
asac_Mithrandir: yes ... i don't think its realistic to sync checkins anyway ... I thought more about doing bulk imports on release10:32
asac_bspencer: we would have to add a PROJECT in client.mk/configure.in10:33
bspencerMithrandir: yes, but first we might look very similar10:33
asac_bspencer: i can get this bootstrapped10:33
bspencerasac_ that would be great10:33
asac_but first i have to figure out how we can develop collaboratively :)10:33
Mithrandirbspencer: iceweasel and firefox both look very similar too.10:33
asac_e.g. bzr ... git ... or whatever 10:33
MithrandirI don't see how that would be a problem as long as we have an intention of fixing it?10:33
bspencerMithrandir: agreed10:35
bspencerasac_ recommend something and we'll follow10:35
Mithrandirspeaking of browser, have we evaluated webkit at all?10:35
bspencerI updated the blueprint with uninteresting details regarding teh browser10:35
asac_actually i would prefer to use git ... so we can rebase and keep our patches on top10:35
bspencerMithrandir: my understanding was that webkit was lighter and faster, but there wasn't a stable gtk port10:35
bspencerand not the strong community or familiarity with it10:36
Mithrandirbspencer: ok.. I talked a bit with the gtk-webkit maintainer at debconf and he urged us to at least look at it, but I agree about the community bit.10:36
bspencerasac_ git is great for us10:37
asac_we would have to find how we can host git though :)10:37
=== asac_ wonders if launchpad does provide something
MithrandirLP doesn't do git10:38
amitkasac_ kernel team has their git repos exported at kernel.ubuntu.com10:38
asac_Mithrandir: where is kernel.ubuntu.com hosteed?10:38
Mithrandirseparate machine10:38
amitkzinc10:38
MithrandirI think it might be a challenge, politically, to get git trees hosted in the DC.  The kernel is kinda special and we tried using bzr for that.10:39
asac_i would be fine with bzr ... if its fast enough for a 300+M source tree (maybe that is resolved by now) ... and if we can rebase10:40
asac_... keeping a branch for each patch to get something rebase-like doesn't sound like a feasible way for such a huge tree though10:41
asac_but i am open for discussion10:41
Mithrandiryou can do a reverse rebase instead of a regular one.10:41
asac_he?10:42
Mithrandirso you'd do bzr branch, then merge the previous branch10:42
Mithrandirthat'd almost give you the same thing10:42
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bspencersee you after a few hours of sleep10:52
asacbspencer: night10:52
asacMithrandir: i think i should talk to some bzr people .. who is the one that would know best?10:55
Mithrandirask on #bzr?10:55
asacoh ... those people have not really been helpful in the past :)10:55
asaci think i will try ddaa10:55
asacto start :)10:56
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mdzasac: please take some time to talk with the bzr team about your needs, as we would prefer to use bzr if it meets them11:43
asacmdz: yes ... i will definitly do11:44
mdzasac: talk to Martin Pool, rather than ddaa11:47
asacmdz: whats his nick?11:56
Mithrandirpoolie, iirc11:57
asacthanks11:57
asachmmm ubuntu-mobile doesn't install hildon-desktop ... is that a bug or a feature?12:11
Mithrandirit's because you're on amd64, and hildon-desktop was FTBFS when ubuntu-meta was last uploaded.12:13
asacah ok12:14
asacnow i started it ... and hildon-desktop just crashed :/12:14
asaclast week it started ... but when clicking on something it crashed12:14
Mithrandirin general, hildon doesn't work completely correct on amd64, I would recommend using an i386 chroot12:14
asachttp://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/27754/12:14
asacok12:14
asacany known reasons why this is the case?12:15
Mithrandirsizeof(void*) != sizeof(int), in general.12:15
MithrandirI would also guess that you didn't use the start-hildon script?12:15
asaci used the script from wiki12:16
Mithrandirok, then you should be good12:16
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asaclets see what happens on i38612:16
asacMithrandir: it crashes as well12:20
asacMithrandir: ah ... just saw that i need ume user?12:20
asacwhy that?12:20
Mithrandirno, you shouldn't necessarily need it.12:20
asachmm12:20
asacthen i have no idea12:20
Mithrandiranyway, it works for me in a fresh chroot, as of yesterday12:21
asaci just recopied the start script12:21
asacin case it has changed in last week12:21
asacbut no improvement12:21
Mithrandirmdz: is it correct that  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-development-environment is still drafting?12:23
Mithrandirmdz: and can you set ubuntu-mobile as the approver on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-mediaplayer ?  I can't edit it otherwise.12:25
Mithrandirditto for https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-browser12:25
Mithrandirmdz: you're drafter for https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-maemo-packaging-cleanup ; I think it should be approved even if we might discover new problems that needs to be cleaned up, so unless you protest I'll just mark it as approved.12:37
mdzMithrandir: packaging-cleanup -> fine12:53
mdzMithrandir: media-player -> done12:53
mdzMithrandir: I need for you or adilson to take over development-environment; I can't put the time in right now12:54
MithrandirI'll be happy to take it12:55
mdzthanks12:57
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Mithrandirhiya rusty02:10
Mithrandirhow's OLS?02:10
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Mithrandiragoliveira: I think we should start on getting you through MOTU and such, so you can do your own uploads, at least to universe.02:18
Mithrandiragoliveira: any thoughts on that?02:19
agoliveiraMithrandir: That would be helpful. BTW, saw your last email. Got it.02:19
Mithrandirit's not a big deal, it just looks better to use the standard syntax.02:20
agoliveiraMithrandir: No problem. I'm aways open to learn ;)02:21
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rustymorning... I haven't hit the conf floor yet... still getting ready in my room 02:25
Mithrandirah02:30
Mithrandiragoliveira: asac complained about hildon falling over when trying to start the UI; can you reproduce it?  (I can, but I'm not sure where the problem lies)02:32
agoliveiraMithrandir: Until yesterday (when I was testing the dbus with you) it was fine here. I can try again to see if anything changed.02:35
Mithrandirmake sure to upgrade the chroot first02:35
agoliveiraMithrandir: Ok.02:36
Mithrandirmeh, and hildon-control-panel needs an -l10n-mr package02:38
agoliveiraMithrandir: Yes, I put that on the TODO. I already prepared the package yesterday but it need to be uploaded.02:39
Mithrandiris it in bzr?02:40
agoliveiraYep.02:40
Mithrandiroh, excellent, you're way ahead of me, then. :-)02:40
agoliveiraHmmm... now that you mentioned, I remember that I did push it yesterday but I can't find it on the mobile list. Let me see what happened.02:42
Mithrandirhttps://launchpad.net/hildon-control-panel-l10n doesn't have an import02:44
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agoliveiraMithrandir: My bad. I registered it but was waiting for the import02:44
agoliveirafrom svn.02:44
Mithrandirhm02:44
Mithrandirare you sure?  I can't see any SVN details connected to it02:46
asacagoliveira: if you need any info ... let me know02:46
agoliveirahttps://launchpad.net/hildon-control-panel-l10n/trunk02:46
asacagoliveira: it just crashes here ... same for amd64 and i386 chroot02:46
agoliveiraSubversion:             https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/hildon-control-panel-l10n                                        Import status:           Testing02:46
asaclast week it crashed when i click on something ... now it crashes right at startup02:46
Mithrandiragoliveira: ok, I can see that. Just strange it's not listed at all in the list of imports.02:46
agoliveiraasac: Sure, let me test it here first.02:47
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Mithrandiragoliveira: you're prodding our LP guy when he shows up, I presume?02:47
agoliveiraYep. That was the first thing on my TODO for today.02:47
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MithrandirI'm taking a break now, phone me if there's anything urgent?02:55
agoliveiraMithrandir: Nope. Call you is be expensive :-D02:56
agoliveiras/is be/is02:56
loolMithrandir: Instead of patching gconfschemasdir, you might want to call dh_gconf02:57
loolOh nm, you do call dh_gconf; you don't need to patch gconfschemasdir though02:57
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looldh_gconf will pick the files in /etc02:58
agoliveiraasac: The crash you saw earlier was caused by a bug already solved. Yesterday I tested the last batches and it works fine. I'm checking out right now again, just in case.02:58
agoliveiraearlier = the first you mentioned.02:58
agoliveiraasac: I just tested it here using the procedure described here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/HildonDesktopManualProcedure and I can click, run other applications, same as yesterday. Are you sure you didn't miss anything?03:04
agoliveiraI even have the side panel working now, btw.03:04
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Mithrandirlool: oh, ok, thanks.03:15
asacagoliveira_brb: i didn't setup a clean chroot03:16
asacagoliveira_brb: maybe there are some conflicts?03:17
asacagoliveira_brb: or leftover files from last weeks which have not been properly cleaned up?03:17
asaci just apt-get install ubuntu-mobile ... and dist-upgraded to get the latest03:17
asacagoliveira_brb: btw, i got bug 123003 when doing this on amd64 ... don't looked if the same occured during i386 upgrade03:19
agoliveiraasac: That's possible. We have being messing with a lot of stuff and perhaps some dependencies are not being updated correctly. I sugest you try with a clean chroot and see what happens. We don't have clean support for 64 bit yet. Maemo code simply is not ready for it and we are going to need a lot of tweaking to do it.03:21
asacoh damn ... why can't you package things properly ... setting up a new chroot isn't exactly what i like to do :)03:22
asaclets see03:22
asaci will remove stuff and look for any leftover03:22
Mithrandirasac: it's already fixed in bzr03:23
asacagoliveira: have you looked at bug 123003 ?03:23
asacMithrandir: what is fixed in bzr? e.g. what is the problem?03:23
agoliveiraasac: I really don't know if it was your case yesterday I just updated my chroot and it worked.03:24
Mithrandirasac: 123003 is fixed in bzr.03:24
asacagoliveira: what package can i remove to purge everything?03:24
asacMithrandir: ah ok.03:24
asacMithrandir: might that cause problems?03:24
asaclike crash on startup?03:24
MithrandirI doubt it03:24
asack03:24
agoliveiraasac: Removing hildon-desktop should do the trick for the base packages but the is some data like the themes that you might have to remove manually.03:26
asachildon-desktop doesn't remove anything else :) ... 03:27
asacapt-get remove libhildon-1-0 libosso1 libhildonwm003:27
asaclooks better03:27
asacbut stilll i have the feeling that there is something else ... like maemo :)03:27
asacok ... i think i purged everything ... lets install ubuntu-mobile again :)03:31
asacagoliveira: which package ships the /etc/hildon-desktop files?03:34
asachildon-desktop right?03:35
agoliveiraasac: I believe so.03:35
asacyes ok ... lets see03:35
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asacagoliveira: ok ... now it doesn't crash anymore :) ... but in xephyr window i just see the side bar for less than half a second then all disappaers again03:40
asaclog is http://pastebin.mozilla.org/11116703:40
asacanyway ... if you don't see it right now ... i will try with fresh chroot03:41
asacbut not today :)03:41
Mithrandirasac: it's something in osso-init which fails03:41
chrissturmhey guys! what are the target devices for ubuntu-mobile? will it work fine with a n800?03:41
Mithrandirchrissturm: it's not the initial target, no.03:42
Mithrandirwe're initially targetting intel-based devices03:42
chrissturmare devices like that already available?03:42
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agoliveiraasac: There is a glib message that's new to me too :-/03:43
asac ... ** (hildon-desktop:25339): CRITICAL **: hildon_home_window_set_work_area: assertion `HILDON_IS_HOME_WINDOW (window) && work_area' failed03:45
asacthat looks definitely critical :)03:45
agoliveirachrissturm: Also, the N770 and N800 have some proprietary parts so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for anything but Nokia code into it.03:45
asacright after the critical pointer assertion03:45
asachmmm '/bin/sh: /usr/bin/esd: not found' ... then03:46
asac' WARNING **: Failed to initialize libOSSO'03:46
agoliveiraasac: Yep.03:46
asacis that related?03:46
agoliveiraasac: Let me check mine here.03:46
asaci mean does libosso fail because there is no esd03:46
asac=03:46
asacaahhh03:46
asackeyboards03:47
agoliveiraasac: I don't know, I just pack things here :-D03:47
tko_libosso init failure is usually because of missing dbus03:47
asactko_: ok is that a problem?03:47
asacor just ignorable?03:47
agoliveiratko_: I was about to say that! Not fari! :-D03:48
tko_apps might crash03:48
agoliveiras/fari/fair03:48
tko_agoliveira, you're just packaging things, remember :)03:48
asacso how do i make dbus work in my chroot?03:48
agoliveiratko_: That's why I wanted to say it ;)03:48
agoliveiraasac: That's a vewy vewy good question... I didn't worry about it because mine just worked.03:49
asacyour dbus works?03:49
asacor you your hildon desktop?03:49
agoliveiraasac: I just follow the instructions and it works. I never needed to do anything extra.03:50
agoliveiraasac: Both03:50
asacagoliveira: you don't get the dbus warning?03:50
asacin line 11 of my log?03:50
agoliveiraasac: Nope. 03:51
asacok maybe i miss a mount03:52
asaclets see03:52
asac$ sudo mount --bind /tmp ${DIR}/tmp03:55
asacagoliveira: ^^^ why do we need to mount tmp?03:55
Mithrandirto access the X server03:56
agoliveiraasac: IIRC, it was something related to the the X sockets03:56
agoliveiraasac: Just in case ;)03:56
asacmakes no difference03:56
asaci crashes again :/  ... i am out of this for today i guess ;)03:57
agoliveiraasac: That's really strange. It has to be something there because it's being working fine for several people.03:57
asacyes ... its strange ... i still think i have leftover03:58
asacfrom last week03:58
agoliveiraasac: Why don't you try from scratch?03:58
asacbecause i usually don't accept that i need to wipe a chroot :) just to test latest ... especially since i don't want to develop mobile core , but just browser :/04:00
asacbut yes ... i will probably do it04:00
asacon monday :)04:00
Mithrandiragoliveira: I can reproduce the problem here, so it's not just asac.04:00
Mithrandirand wiping out where the problem might be found is wrong; better to track it down and fix it.04:00
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asacright04:00
asacshould be a packaging bug if it really works with clean chroot04:01
asacMithrandir: does dbus work for you ?04:01
asacor do you get the warning at the beginning as well?04:01
agoliveiraMithrandir: I know that, I was suggest trying from scratch on a different chroot to have something to compare with.04:01
asacagoliveira: i trust you to tell the truth04:02
asacMithrandir: i see ** (hildon-desktop:25881): DEBUG: Failed to connect to DBUS: Failed to connect to socket /var/run/dbus/system_bus_socket: Connection refused!04:02
agoliveiraasac: Why wouldn't I do it?04:02
asacat the beginning (line 11 or so)04:02
asacagoliveira: i ment i don't have to setup clean chroot to see that it works ... i am sure that it does04:03
asacand since my chroot has lots of other stuff installed i cannot really do a diff on a clean install and the one i have right now04:03
agoliveiraasac: Oh, fine. I tought you were using this one ony for testing UME. That's why I suggested that.04:04
Mithrandirasac: bingo, restarting dbus in the chroot fixed it for me.04:04
asachow do i do that?04:04
Mithrandiragoliveira: it'll break for you too if you reboot and don't start dbus in the chroot by hand04:05
asacand why does it start for agoliveira automagically?04:05
Mithrandir/etc/init.d/dbus restart04:05
asaclets see :)04:05
MithrandirI would guess he hasn't rebooted since he bootstrapped the chroot.04:05
rustyMithrandir, sorry... just popping in.... about that error: you see that dbus error if you chroot inside a file system that the system dbus is not running or if you did not start a clean environment and the connection to an existing session bus fails04:05
asacMithrandir: rock!04:05
asacit works04:05
agoliveiraMithrandir: IF I stop dbus indeed the error shows up.04:05
Mithrandirrusty: yup, we just triaged it down to that now.04:05
asacagoliveira: hell ... why didn't you tell me that you start dbus by hand :) ... is that on the wiki page?04:06
Mithrandirno, it's not.04:06
asacEnter the chroot and su - to the user created above. That will start the dbus session.04:07
Mithrandirasac: that's plain wrong04:07
asacthat sounds as if its wrong04:07
asacok i will fix04:07
Mithrandirrusty: does your project builder start dbus in the chroot automatically?04:07
rustyone complicating factor is that dbus is automatically started with you install the dbus package, so people get a chroot working and don't realize that dbus was started so that they see the problem after rebooting04:07
agoliveiraasac: Because I didn't!04:07
rustyMithrandir, no, not yet... it's one of those things i want to add04:07
Mithrandirthis is why chroots suck. :-P04:08
rustybut... i do have a wrapper for chroot to stick in all those details so people don't have to remember all the steps04:08
Mithrandiror part of the reason anyway.04:08
asacok done04:08
asachttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/HildonDesktopManualProcedure04:08
asacthough i use schroot ... but i think i people can figure out :)04:08
asacMithrandir: maybe there are hooks to execute something when entering chroot?04:09
agoliveiraasac: Actually I forgot to remove that reference yesterday.04:09
asache?04:09
asacremove?04:09
asaci just added something :)04:09
agoliveiraasac: "Enter the chroot and su - to the user created above. That will start the dbus session."04:10
asacah ... ok ... now it should be more explicit04:10
agoliveiraSure04:10
asacwithout that hint there was nothing about dbus at all04:10
asacok fine :)04:10
asaclets move ahead ;)04:10
asacis it a problem that sapwood-server et al are started everytime i run that startscript?04:11
asaci killed them manually for now04:11
asacdamn ... now i get a bad X window crash when clicking on side bar04:12
rustydoesn't the sapwood server die with X dies?04:12
MithrandirI've put a start-hildon script in the hildon-desktop pacakge04:12
Mithrandirrusty: it does, yes, but gconfd keeps running04:12
Mithrandirstart-hildon should possibly go on a killing spree before starting anything.04:12
asachmmm on second try it works04:13
asaccooollll i have firefox running :)04:13
=== agoliveira is feeling awfully useless today :(
agoliveiraasac: I even run openoffice on it. Albeit useless is interesting to see :)04:14
asachttp://people.ubuntu.com/~asac/hildon.png04:14
asacwhy is there such a huge blue area on the left?04:14
asacit takes a way precious space here04:14
tko_that's the status bar :)04:15
asache?04:15
tko_bug04:15
Mithrandirit doesn't look that way for me04:15
tko_fixed in later hildon-desktop versions04:15
asacah :)04:15
asacmaybe fixed in bzr then04:15
agoliveiraasac: Are you sure you have a recent hildon-desktop?04:15
asachey i purged and installed ten times in the last 2 hours04:15
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agoliveiraasac: This was solved some time ago and mine is fine.04:15
asacwhat package version do you want?04:16
agoliveiraasac: Hold on a minute04:16
asacdist-upgrade just brings me new libcairo ... so i appear to be up-to-date04:17
agoliveiraasac: 0.0.14-2ubuntu404:17
asachilden desktop is 0.0.14-2ubuntu404:17
asacyes04:17
asacsame here04:17
agoliveiraWeird...04:17
asacmaybe there is some config file created in my home from last week?04:17
asacdoes hildon create configs?04:17
asacthat i might try to wipe?04:17
agoliveiraasac: Check if /etc/hildon-desktop/desktop.conf has the last session commented out.04:17
rustyThe day before yesterday I saw Bob had the new layout of the desktop working (i.e. you no longer had the waisted space on the left hand side of the screen)04:18
rustyso i guess bob has some check-ins to make04:18
asacagoliveira: oh i understood from wiki that i should enable it:)04:18
asacmaybe misread04:19
asaclets see04:19
agoliveiraasac: It does create a .osso directory so this might be04:19
agoliveiraasac: Ah04:19
agoliveiraasac: Actually this should not be a issue anymore as I already fixed on the package04:19
asacok all is solved04:19
asacthanks :)04:19
agoliveiraasac: My pleasure04:20
Mithrandirrusty: another solution would be to bind-mount /var/run04:20
=== agoliveira starts to feel a bit useful today at least ;)
=== asac hugs agoliveira
asacso now ... the menus in firefox should go away ?04:20
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asacis that the idea?04:21
asace.g. same for toolbar and locationbar?04:21
agoliveiraasac: That I don't know but it's quite possible as the idea is to have a integrated context menu due size/space restrictions.04:21
suihkulokkifirefox presumably does not use normal gtkmenus04:22
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asacyes right04:22
asaci mean ... do we have a gtk applictaion or something that does that already?04:22
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asacsuihkulokki: yes i know :)04:22
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agoliveiraasac: AFAIK, we don't have any application already done to work inside that context but usually simpler things like gnome games behave much nicer.04:24
asachow can i start an application? .. maybe we should add a terminal?04:25
asac:)04:25
agoliveiraasac: Just go to a terminal and run DISPLAY=:1 whatever_app04:26
asacyeah i know :)04:27
asacso why doesn't hildon fallback to default icons if there are no in the theme?04:27
asace.g ** (hildon-desktop:26750): WARNING **: Error loading icon '/usr/share/icons/sun-java6.xpm': Icon '/usr/share/icons/sun-java6.xpm' not present in theme04:27
asacwhile /usr/share/icons/sun-java6.xpm *exists*04:27
agoliveiraasac: I have no idea. Never dug into the theme stuff. Perhaps the Nokia guys can answer.04:28
asacok ... not really important04:28
asacjust would like to the firefox.png displayed :)04:29
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agoliveiraSome icons actually work, some not.04:29
inzhttp://inz.fi/mubu-abi.png04:34
inzThe theming really breaks :/04:36
agoliveiraMithrandir: Can you upload matchbox-window-manager-maemo?04:43
agoliveirainz: What have you done?04:46
=== rusty notices that OLS is pretty lame this year
agoliveiraRusty: Really sucks when you go to an event like that and it's not what you expect. I remember FISL 6.04:48
rustyi've been to OLS for the past... i don't know... maybe 5 years.  this year is weaker then past years04:48
inzagoliveira, I edited /etc/hildon-desktop/desktop.conf and changed the tasknavigator orientation to bottom instead of left04:49
agoliveirainz: So you're on your own for now ;) The Plankton theme is there because we need something to start with but I don't think it's going to stay.04:52
agoliveirainz: and becasue hildon-desktop demands a theme as well.04:53
=== rusty signs off to listen to Len Brown's talk about thermal extensions
inzhttp://inz.fi/mubu-cpu.png04:54
inzyay, my cpu load applet works ;)04:54
inzif only the statusbar worked properly ;)04:55
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agoliveiraMeeting in 62 minutes, right?04:58
agoliveiraI'm going lunch then. BRB.04:58
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asac_agoliveira_lunch: do we have an application that properly integrates its menu bars into the toolbar atm? ... so i can take a look and get an idea?05:14
tkoasac: look up hildon_window_set_menu() 05:19
asac_tko: i know that method05:19
asac_just wanted to see a real life example :)05:19
tkon800 *g*05:19
asac_hehe05:20
tkowell, hildon-control-panel actually05:20
agoliveiraQuick lunch today ;)05:21
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asac_tko: yeah ... i don't consider that a good example as its natural place is the control panel :)05:21
agoliveiraasac_: No, I don't but, sorry.05:21
asac_i think i will try to hack gnome-terminal05:22
agoliveiraasac_: Forget the but ;)05:22
asac_can i just set the gtk_menu ... as hildon menu?05:22
tkoasac_: you said you knew the function already :-P05:22
tkoasac_: yes, it takes a normal GtkMenu05:22
asac_k cool05:22
asac_i know like i have seen it in api :)05:23
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inzasac, check osso-xterm05:33
asacinz: hmm appears to be not packaged :-P05:38
asacyet05:38
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agoliveir1Damn freenode...05:40
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agoliveiraMeeting in 10?05:50
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ian_brasilola05:54
agoliveiraian_brasil: Oi Ian. Bem vindo ao nosso cantinho ;)05:57
ian_brasilvalew...acho melhor a gente se-fala em portuguese, ne ;)05:58
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agoliveiraian_brasil: Voc que manda, mano ;)05:58
Mithrandiragoliveira: I need to look at what's different there compared to the regular matchbox, but otherwise, yes, I'll do05:59
Mithrandirhi rusty05:59
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agoliveiraMithrandir: There were several patches made by Nokia. I don't know what they do exactly.06:00
MithrandirNo Bob here yet.06:00
agoliveiraNope06:00
tkoagoliveira: my guess would be they add / fix window frame animation or fix window stacking issues06:01
agoliveiratko: Yes, I saw that, I meant I didn't know what it would mean for us.06:01
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agoliveiraSo there's Bob!06:02
bspenceragoliveira, good morning06:03
agoliveirabspencer: Good afternoon ;)06:03
Mithrandirmorning, mr Spencer.06:03
tkoagoliveira: maybe you could get Matthew comment on them in ubuntu context.. generally there should be single way of doing the window stacking (i.e. no patches) but I don't know for certain06:03
Mithrandirah, Charlie is here already.06:03
charliefjohnsonYep - I'm here.06:04
agoliveiratko: Fine. Anyway, I put it in a different branch so we can jump back if necessary.06:04
asachi06:04
robr2good morning everyone06:04
Mithrandiramitk_: are you here or is it just your IRC client?06:04
Mithrandiroh well, seems like he's not here, I think we can manage without him.06:05
MithrandirI'd like to get us started then, unless anybody sees anyone missing?06:06
rustyhello06:06
charliefjohnsonLet's start.06:06
MithrandirOk, the plan is to go through the list of specs, get status updates.06:06
MithrandirI suggest we just go through them in the default sort order on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/06:07
Mithrandirwhich then starts with mobile-app-framework06:07
MithrandirAdilson and I have been busy bringing in some more fixes, mostly packaging-related.06:07
Mithrandirthere are some problems running the code properly on AMD64/EM64T, so we recommend using a 32 bit chroot for now.06:08
asacnetsplit06:08
Mithrandiryeah, I noticed.06:08
agoliveiraGee...06:08
asacbob is gone06:08
rustybobux, you listening?06:09
asacmaybe move to oftc for meetings :-P06:09
Mithrandirwe have lots of ground to cover, so I'll just paste him the backlog when he gets back.06:09
=== agoliveira sugests a minute of silence for those gone in the line of duty...
asacrofl06:09
Mithrandirany questions about the application framework itself?06:09
rustyhow are the startup scripts comming?06:10
MithrandirI haven't started investigating them; Adilson, have you?06:10
agoliveiraNope.06:10
agoliveiraI can take care of this.06:11
Mithrandirok, thanks.06:11
rustymy hack has been to add a init script that does startx, and then move the hildon startup script to /root/.xinitrc (after removing the line that sets the display variable)06:11
agoliveiraAs I mostly finished the panel, I can take some time for that.06:11
Mithrandirthe hildon startup script is now in the hildon-desktop package, btw06:11
Mithrandir(called start-hildon)06:12
agoliveiraYep, saw it.06:12
asacdoes that replace the one in wiki?06:12
charliefjohnsonIs hildon-desktop a toplevel package that pulls everything else in ??06:12
Mithrandirno, ubuntu-mobile is06:12
agoliveiraasac: yes06:12
asacgreat06:12
Mithrandirasac: it's the same, but it starts dbus too06:12
charliefjohnsonOK - thanks.06:13
Mithrandirok, let's move on.06:13
MithrandirRusty has done great work on the image creation spec.06:13
Mithrandirand the implementation seems to be good too.06:13
Mithrandirrusty: we need to talk about how to actually do the package building since it'll build as a non-root user.06:14
rustythe current implementation needs some work on how it creates initrd images06:14
Mithrandirbut we can do that outside of the meeting.06:14
rustyMithrandir, yea, i've even wondered if building the rootstraps should happen as a postinst script on the user's machine06:14
rustythat would mean a much smaller deb package but a long install06:15
agoliveirarusty: I would prefer that way.06:15
Mithrandiror it could happen on demand when the user requests it.06:15
rustyrusty, building the rootstraps at install time?06:15
agoliveirarusty: Yes, but it's my personal feeling.06:15
Mithrandirrusty: is there anything apart from the initramfs building and the rootstrap build issues that's outstanding there?06:16
rustyoh, also... maybe the first time a user tries to build an image for a given platform06:16
rustyMithrandir, that's initrd building and rootstrap file creation are the two big items06:17
Mithrandirok06:17
rustybeyond that it's bug fixing once more users are finding problems06:17
Mithrandirof course.06:17
charliefjohnsonDo we have an estimate as to when we'll have UME images as part of the standard Ubuntu builds ?? Or at least have project builder available so that images could be generated ??06:17
rustyand i think i know how to fix the initrd thing... did some study on the flight to Chicago06:17
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rustywell, first i need to fix the rootstrap and initrd issues06:18
Mithrandircharliefjohnson: once we have worked out how to do build the package as non-root, it should be fairly simple.06:18
Mithrandircharliefjohnson: I'd guess we'll have dailies either next week or during the sprint.06:18
charliefjohnsonwhat sprint?06:19
agoliveira... and The Root said "There be Bob!" and Bob is back... the The Root wonders if it was good or not...06:19
rusty:->06:19
Mithrandirthe one in London starting July 9th06:19
charliefjohnsonThat's news to me.06:19
agoliveiracharliefjohnson: There will be some intel guys there.06:19
rustywe should setup an agenda item to go over what we want to accomplish for and what has to be done before the sprint06:20
Mithrandirit's a Canonical distro sprint, and I sent an invitation to you (Intel); I can check exactly whom I sent it to.06:20
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ian_brasilis it open to the community?06:20
agoliveiraian_brasil: Sorry, it is not.06:20
ian_brasilok06:20
Mithrandiragoliveira: wait a second06:20
Mithrandirian_brasil: traditionally, it has been, but it's a sprint, and there are no sponsorships or anything given out for it.06:21
rustyI'm still working on who from OTC will be there, but at the very least Bob and I will be in London... did you want to cover the sprint now or later in the meeting?06:21
Mithrandirlater's fine06:21
ian_brasili am in the uk waiting for my work visa for Brazil06:21
agoliveiraMithrandir: I'm sorry. I tought this one would be diffent for being on Canonical HQ.06:21
Mithrandirian_brasil: ok; I can check what our position on it is.  I'm happy for a small number of people to come in, but it's just not a big community event like the UDS-es are.06:22
ian_brasilcool, let me know06:22
Mithrandirwill do06:22
Mithrandirlet's move on?06:22
Mithrandirmobile kernel06:23
charliefjohnsonNo kernel reps ?06:23
Mithrandirbspencer: do you want a paste of what you missed when you were away?06:23
Mithrandirno, but I can give a short update on it.06:24
rustyis there lpia kernel build available yet... i.e. something in the gutsy repositories06:24
charliefjohnsonRob - Any updates on Poulsbo patches beyond what you already gave to Ben ??06:24
Mithrandirrusty: no, we are having some problems getting LPIA bootstrapped.  I'm working on fixing it, but it takes some time, unfortunately.06:24
kylempoulsbo patches are going to go into the next upload, along with a UME config.06:24
Mithrandirkylem: oh, good.06:25
bspencerMithrandir: I'm good06:25
robr2amit gave jacob a kernel to test with our patches applied, i've not heard from jacob on the status 06:25
kylemamit kucheira will be taking over for me.06:25
kylemi expect as soon as we can actually build something with a lpia chroot, we'll have a UME flavour on that arch as well.06:25
charliefjohnsonQuestion: How to handle kernel modules that are part of other blueprints such as graphics ??  (drm.ki & psk.ko) 06:25
charliefjohnsons/ki/ko/06:26
Mithrandirthey should still go to the kernel team, naturally.06:26
rustycharliefjohnson, will they not be a kernel patch?06:26
kylemcharliefjohnson, for the "problematic" ones, we'll likely put them in their own seperate packages, but will be maintained by the kernel team still06:26
kylemthe rest will be integrated.06:26
robr2kylem: one problem we're having with the kernel patches is you need to pass in the kernel cmdline option "nolapic_timer" to get around a boot hang"06:27
charliefjohnsonThe Poulsbo specific drm module (psb.ko) is brand new.  drm.ko however is the rewrite with the drm memory management.06:27
Mithrandirrobr2: make sure to file a bug about that and subscribe ubuntu-mobile06:28
kylemcharliefjohnson, right, we haven't really talked about it yet, but i've worked out in my head the easiest thing to do is for the UME config to turn off in-kernel drm entirely and build it seperately.06:28
robr2Mithrandir: ok06:28
charliefjohnsonGreat!06:28
kylemcharliefjohnson, mesa 7 should be in gutsy really soon now.06:28
rustykylem, that makes sense06:28
charliefjohnsonI saw Bryce's announcement.06:29
kylemgroovy, ok.06:29
kylemoop, it already is in gutsy. cool.06:29
Mithrandireven better :-)06:29
rustyabout the need for kernel arguments...06:30
amitk_yup06:30
kylemrusty, what hardware are you seeing it on?06:30
rustywhere do we handle that?  I am guessing in a device config package06:30
rustyrobr2,  the lpia systems in the lab06:31
kylemrusty, probably easiest for this instance is to DMI blacklist it.06:31
Mithrandirisn't that something which should be handled in a quirks table somewhere? (he says, waying his hand vaguely around)06:31
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kylemMithrandir, yes, precisely.06:31
robr2rusty: all poulsbo based systems06:31
kylemis anyone investigating what the actual problem is, is it a hw bug, or the linux code not being flexible enough?06:32
charliefjohnsonThis is where you have to pump the power button once to bypass the hang?  I thought Jacob had a fix?06:32
robr2kylem: yes, we're investigating it06:32
kylemrobr2, ok, cool, thanks.06:32
Mithrandirok, sounds good.06:32
Mithrandirmove on?06:32
robr2kylem: we suspect it's a kernel bug with some newly introduced Local APIC timer code in the kernel06:33
charliefjohnsonyes06:33
Mithrandirmobile-ui; Spec's approved; Bob, what's the status?06:33
bspencerMithrandir: status on implementation?06:33
Mithrandiryes, given the spec is approved, there's not much more to be said about that.06:34
Mithrandirso, yes, implementation status.06:34
bspencerwe need a few things06:34
bspencercontrol panel doesn't work06:34
bspencerthere's been some changes recently and we need tko to help us figure out how to integrate it06:34
bspenceralso I've got an almost working UI per the spec (the big icons UI)06:34
bspencera question I had:06:35
bspencersome of this is just configuration changes06:35
bspencerbut if I make them in the default hildon package, you will no longer see the Maemo UI06:35
bspencerit will always look like the new UI06:35
bspenceris that OK with all?06:35
bspencerIt won't look like the old Hildon, per say.  06:35
agoliveiraOk06:36
MithrandirI wouldn't mind, or we could just move configuration into its own package so we could choose by installing hildon-look-maemo or hildon-look-mid or hildon-look-whatever06:36
bspencerI just need to check in a new theme, a new package of plugins, get control panel working, change the config.06:36
amitk_robr2, charliefjohnson, kyle: sorry it took a while to read through the backlog. But jacob confirmed that my reworked patches were fine. They will be in the next kernel release06:36
bspencerI can do that with agoliveira in short order.06:36
bspencerMithrandir: got it.  Good idea06:36
bspencerMithrandir: the last thing is to get some help with the startup scripts06:36
agoliveirabspencer: Just say the word!06:36
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bspencerso that we can boot a device and get it up to the UI 06:36
bspencerwithout having to manually run 3-4 steps.06:37
Mithrandirbspencer: Adilson was voluntold at the start of the meeting. :-)06:37
Mithrandirso he'll help you out with that.06:37
bspencerMithrandir: OK.  So we'll get the changes pushed up as quick as we can.  I'll talk to him today06:37
Mithrandirgreat.06:37
agoliveiraMithrandir: Yeah, me and my big mounth :)06:37
bspencerthat will give us a UI that looks like the spec.06:37
bspencer(thanks for approval)06:37
Mithrandirdo you have your code changes pushed to LP yet?06:38
bspencerMithrandir: some, but I have more06:38
bspencerMithrandir: and I haven't created the matching theme in LP yet06:38
Mithrandirok06:38
bspencerMithrandir: on a related note.  "Utilities"06:38
bspencerthat is the control panel stuff06:38
bspencerI'm not sure of the status of control panel wrt Hildon changes06:38
bspencertko: are you on?06:38
agoliveirabspencer: I just pushed it. Should be on repo soon.06:39
tkobspencer: mmm, yes06:39
Mithrandirthe current bzr branch has the rewrite in it06:39
bspencertko, agoliveira is the new control panel stuff (refactored) already in ?06:39
agoliveiraYes06:39
tkoI'm not the right person to talk about control panel though.. you'll want lucas for that06:39
bspencerok.  tko -- we couldn't get our control panel applets to work06:39
Mithrandirit's not uploaded yet, since I couldn't test it, but it's in bzr.06:40
bspencertko: ok.  can you give me a name to ask after the meeting?06:40
agoliveiraIt was a bit of PITZ to get it there but it's on bzr06:40
bspencerI'm sure we're missing something small06:40
tkobspencer: the lucas in ChangeLog06:40
agoliveiras/PITZ/PITA :)06:40
bspencertko: we updated the "Utilities" blueprint that describes the control panel.  We put in a document (rough) about how to create a control panel06:40
bspencerapplet06:40
bspencerit is based off of 3.x help and what we could figure out.  But the applet doesn't work with the new code.06:41
Mithrandirok, so move on.06:41
Mithrandir?06:41
agoliveiraSure06:41
bspencersure06:41
charliefjohnsonyep06:41
Mithrandirwindow manager - this is now approved, Adilson has done work on the bzr branches and asked me to upload, which I haven't done yet.06:42
Mithrandir(since I was out shopping a birthday present for my wife when he asked)06:42
MithrandirI'll do so before I sign off for today06:42
=== agoliveira knows what is like ;)
Mithrandirany questions?06:43
=== rusty has a moment of panic thinking that his wife's birthday is comming up, or is it?
bspencerwindow manager -- and Xephyr06:43
=== agoliveira thinks that rusty might be in a BIG problem!
bspencerquestion:06:43
bspencerwill the gutsy Xephyr handle the composite transparency stuff and not clip the home plugins?06:44
Mithrandiryes, that's just waiting for an xorg-server upload.06:44
MithrandirAIUI06:44
agoliveiraMithrandir: You're too quick. I give up :)06:44
Mithrandirok, any more questions?06:45
rustyso i should be running Xephyr from my gutsy chroot and not directly off my feisty install06:45
Mithrandiryes06:45
Mithrandirat least eventually06:45
Mithrandiror rather, eventually you should just run gutsy.06:45
MithrandirI'll get bryce to mail the list when he uploads so people know what they have to deal with06:46
Mithrandirnext; graphics - pending approval; I've asked Bryce (our X person) to take a look at it, it's a bit thin, but if he's happy with it, I'm not going to protest.06:46
Mithrandircharliefjohnson: how's the implementation coming along there?06:47
charliefjohnsonI have an functioning Apha 2D driver right now.06:47
charliefjohnsonWe got internal approval to release external from Intel - So I can provide at any time.06:47
charliefjohnson3D is still in progress.06:48
Mithrandirgreat; can you talk directly with Bryce and get that moving?06:48
charliefjohnsonYes - I emailed him yesterday a couple of times.  No reponse yet.06:48
MithrandirI'll prod him with my electric cattle prod and see if I can get him to respond.06:49
charliefjohnsonHe's local - I could just call him.  06:49
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Mithrandirwell, prodded.  Gently so far. :-)06:49
charliefjohnsonDo you need anything more in the spec ???  06:50
Mithrandirit's not I who will implement it, but I know that if I was going to make changes to our X packages based on the spec, it would not have been enough.06:50
charliefjohnsonI've asked Bryce to review.06:51
Mithrandiryup06:51
Mithrandirso let's leave it on his plate.06:51
Mithrandirmove on?06:51
charliefjohnsonyes06:51
MithrandirBrowser is in review; I haven't had the time to review it properly today.  Bob, how is it coming along?06:52
bspencergod06:52
Mithrandirbspencer: iirc, it was your spec?06:52
bspencergood06:52
bspenceryes06:52
bspencervisited briefly with you and asac yesterday06:52
bspencerwe have a pulled a branch of recent Mozilla06:52
Mithrandircan you please set ubuntu-mobile as approver and yourself as assignee/drafter?06:52
bspencerMithrandir: yes06:52
MithrandirI can't because ubuntu-mobile doesn't have a relation to the spec.06:52
bspencerhave made changes for the font.  I'll work with asac on getting the git-repo up and ready to go.06:52
asacbspencer: when can we talk a bit more in detail about it?06:52
bspencerasac: you say when06:53
bspencerafter the meeting06:53
bspenceror tonight at 2am.  You choose.06:53
asacbspencer: actually i have to leave in a minute :)06:53
asacdo you work at weekend?06:53
bspencerthis weekend, yes06:53
asacotherwise just ping me on monday06:53
bspencerIt would be great to work on it sooner, if you want to chat Saturday sometime06:54
asacyes ... if you are in this channel i will try to get a grib on you :)06:54
bspencerasac: give me a time sometime before my Sunday and we'll chat.06:54
bspencerk06:54
asacthats hard to say ... i have to figure out with my wife ... which is not here atm06:55
bspencerdetails :)06:55
asaci will try to tell you tonight (in a few hours)06:55
bspencersure06:55
asacmaybe we can chat then06:55
asaceven06:55
bspencerMithrandir: that's all I have for browser.06:55
Mithrandirworst case, just mail each other with times you can meet up, or something.06:55
asacwe will figure out06:55
asacok i am out ... in a hurry06:55
asaccya06:55
Mithrandirok, thanks.  Seems to be progressing; any idea when we can have something looking ok-ish and not just a browser crammed into too little space?06:56
bspencerI don't have asac's email.  Mithrandir can you send?06:56
asacasac@jwsdot.com06:56
bspencerasac: thx06:56
asacbut i will come back in a few hours06:56
kylemcharliefjohnson, is there an agpgart kernel module for poulsbo as well?06:57
Mithrandirbspencer: my question above is probably something you can answer?06:57
charliefjohnsonNo - agpgart functionality is moving to the chipset specific drm module.  Apparently this isn't unique to Poulsbo.06:57
kylemcharliefjohnson, alright, thanks.06:57
bspencerMithrandir: sorry.  missed the Q06:58
bspencerlet's see on timing..06:58
bspencerre-themed and packaged:  3-4 days06:58
bspencerprobably about 1month to see a new chrome06:58
bspencermaybe less if asac jumps in strong06:58
Mithrandirok, thanks.06:58
Mithrandirmove on, or does anybody have any other questions?06:59
rustynope06:59
kylemok, i've fribbled the Graphics spec implementation section a bit... any objections?06:59
MithrandirUtilities; Bob, this is your spec too.06:59
kylemjust to make the packages needing modification a little clearer.06:59
bspenceryes06:59
bspencerwe touched on briefly before06:59
charliefjohnsonkylem: I'll take a look.06:59
bspencerthis is control panel + configuration utilities.06:59
MithrandirI haven't had the time to review that today, sorry, I'll do so monday06:59
bspencerMithrandir: ok.07:00
bspencerI think the big question is how to assign the configuration utilities.  They are not all known07:00
bspencerthey kind of trickle in as things progress07:00
bspencerI put a short list in there (5-6) that I know we'll need07:00
Mithrandirit says blocked; is that with the old control panel code or the new one?07:00
bspencerjust blocked that we don't have a working one in gutsy w/new Hildon changes.  (discusssed above)07:00
bspenceragoliveira: going to save the day and make it work soon.07:01
Mithrandiryup. :-)07:01
Mithrandirso it should be unblocked either today or Monday.07:01
bspencerk07:01
=== agoliveira starts to feel a chilly wind....
bspencer;07:01
agoliveiraAs soon as it uploads we can test it.07:01
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agoliveiraIt worked for me installed by had.07:02
agoliveirahand07:02
Mithrandirwhat to do about the control panel applets trickling in?  I think just writing about those you know about already, then listing "We might need more control panel applets" in the outstanding issues section might make sense.07:02
Mithrandirand then create separate specs for those, if they're sizable.07:02
rustysounds like a plan07:02
bspencerMithrandir: ok.  But I'm not sure I know which one's we are writing yet.  I'll take a stab.07:03
Mithrandirmake a qualified guess based on the SOW?07:03
bspenceryep07:03
bspencerCanonical owns all07:03
bspencer;)07:03
Mithrandir*cough* :-)07:03
rustybut it list some specific items, right?07:03
Mithrandiriirc, it does, yes.07:03
bspencerI'll review and update the spec today07:04
Mithrandirthanks; I'll approve it on Monday, assuming it's good then07:04
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Mithrandiris it useful for people that I send reviews publically to the list, or would you rather have me send them privately?  I was doing it so everybody can learn and you can see what is important to have in place in a spec and what the style should be.07:05
agoliveiraIt's being useful to me at least.07:05
bspencerI like public07:05
ian_brasilme too07:05
rustysame here07:05
bspenceresp if you say "great job Bob, perfect spec"07:05
charliefjohnsonPublic is OK - I just had to remember to look in the folder I was shuffling all ubuntu-mobile message into.07:05
Mithrandiras long as people aren't unhappy about me saying "those are problematic areas in this spec" and taking it personally, since it really isn't.07:06
Mithrandircharliefjohnson: I can Cc the drafter, if that'd be better?07:06
bspencerMithrandir: good idea.07:06
bspencerMithrandir: give it to us striaght.  We don't take offense07:06
charliefjohnsonMithrandir: That would be good to.07:06
=== agoliveira never takes personally but it's aways good to think ways to escape UK ...
Mithrandirok, good then. :-)07:07
MithrandirMove on, USB client.07:07
bspencerthat is one of the crappiest, half-baked specs I've ever seen07:07
Mithrandirthere was some discussion on the list about it, since apparently it was less clear than it seemed at first, so dumped back to drafting.07:07
Mithrandirhowever, the implementation seems to have started already?07:07
charliefjohnsonMy engineering in China made a couple of updates.  (Thanks Bob !!) Can you take another look?07:07
bspencercharliefjohnson: ;)07:08
Mithrandirit would probably be good to expand what CDC-EEM/RNDIS stands for.07:08
Mithrandirit sound more like a missile control system or a crypto system than anything else. :-)07:09
charliefjohnsonI don't even know what it means! :^)07:09
charliefjohnsonI has a good picture though!07:09
bspencerrusty had visited with the author about some changes07:09
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charliefjohnsonI'll ask them to update some more.07:10
rustyit means... the standard way of connecting a communication device over usb, or the crappy way to do it an have windows work07:10
rustyI think we are missing the high level debate on exactly what we expect to see when you plug in one of these devices to your pc07:11
Mithrandirit'd probably make sense for the implementors of the kernel bits to submit them to the kernel team too, so they can be reviewed and integrated early.07:11
Mithrandirrusty: yes, your response to my critique was good.07:11
charliefjohnsonYes - I'll working with them to make that happen.  07:12
Mithrandirgood07:12
charliefjohnsonI attempting to get them more directly involved instead of me being the middle man.07:12
Mithrandiranyway, I think we've covered this well enough and I'd like us to finish soonish, so move on.07:12
Mithrandirmedia player07:12
bspencermobile-mediaplayer:  following your advice to finish some all the way, and not partly do some, I didn't start due to time.07:12
Mithrandiryup, that's fine.07:13
robr2charliefjohnson: please make sure they work w/ jacob and me to get it integrated in our kernel too07:13
Mithrandircould you have it written up fairly early next week?07:13
bspencerour team is working on a media player.  Ken Wimer's graphics show some of what it looks like07:13
bspencerMithrandir: yes.  I'll finish that spec by next mtg07:13
Mithrandirok, nice.07:13
Mithrandira feature I've seen people ask for is gesture support, what are your plans regarding that?07:14
bspencerwe like the idea07:14
bspencergetting the basic stuff first, then investigate07:14
bspencerlike being able to render a video at all.  or show pictures07:14
=== rusty thinks of a gesture and laughs to himself
Mithrandirof course, if it doesn't play music, having support for gestures is hardly helpful.07:14
agoliveiraSorry but gesture support for the media player only or in general?07:14
MithrandirI've looked around for free software which does it, but most of it seems old.07:14
bspencerMithrandir: yes.  we're almost over the first hurdles.   07:15
Mithrandiragoliveira: in general would be sweet, but I don't think we'll have it for the first generation.07:15
bspencergestures always sound cool.  in practice we'll see.07:15
agoliveiraAgreed. Just clarifying07:15
Mithrandirok, move on.07:15
agoliveirabspencer: In pratice I never liked07:15
Mithrandirbuild infrastructure.  No update here, I need to clear up some internal problems we're having so this can be unblocked.07:16
MithrandirI'm hoping we'll have that ready by next meeting.07:16
Mithrandirnext; hardware accelerated video decode; Charlie?07:16
charliefjohnsonSpec is Approved.  We decoding MPEG2.07:17
charliefjohnsonMoving on to VC1 & h26407:17
Mithrandirthat's just decode, no encoding of h264?07:17
rustyhow hard would it be to create a gstreamer codec for each of these formats?07:18
agoliveirarusty: that would be sweet.07:18
charliefjohnsonWe'll do encode also.  I'm doing the h264 work.  (Actual coding. what a novel idea!)07:18
Mithrandirit sounds like it's coming along well?07:19
agoliveirabrb 2 min!07:19
charliefjohnsonWe're looking into gstreamer option right now.  I'll have to ask Waldo for an update.07:19
bspencerI'll enjoy bugging waldo for a deliverable07:19
rustywhen do you expect to get a first drop into bzr?07:19
charliefjohnsonWe're very dependent on the HW IP vendor.  I need to work that with Waldo.07:20
=== agoliveira is back, feeling much better!
Mithrandirok; so this is on track, gstreamer support is being investigated?07:21
charliefjohnsonI'll have Waldo join in on these meeting in the future.07:21
charliefjohnsonyes - no updates yet.  Right now it is Helix 07:22
Mithrandirok07:22
Mithrandirmove on; mobile gnome components, Bob?07:22
bspencergnome-components: Should be ready for review.  Needs an implementer to check that the latest/right versions of each component are planned to be included.07:22
Mithrandircan you make ubuntu-mobile the approver here too?07:22
bspenceryes, doing that now...07:23
Mithrandirthanks07:23
MithrandirI can do the checking of what parts need to go in, so put me as the assignee?07:23
Mithrandirunless somebody else wants it07:23
bspencerMithrandir: you got it07:23
bspencerMithrandir: one issue is that some are going to be released in Sept with next gnome release07:24
=== agoliveira pretends to be looking the other way and whistling...
bspencerso we are tight grabbing that latest and putting it in gutsy07:24
Mithrandirnah, GNOME has a standing upstream version freeze exception07:24
MithrandirI'll just make sure to get that extended to GMAE components too07:24
bspencerok. 07:24
Mithrandirso we're good on that front.07:25
Mithrandirit needs review too, but I'll do that on Monday.07:25
Mithrandiriirc, I did today, but couldn't approve it, so I'll get to do it again.07:25
bspencermy bad on the "Approver"07:25
Mithrandirnp07:25
Mithrandirmobile-overview is Matt's spec, it's informational.  At this point, it's mostly about cleaning up the Mobile and Embedded front page, something he voluntold Adilson and I to do yesterday.07:26
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Mithrandiragoliveira: you're listed as the assignee on mobile VCS; is there anything to do there but say "we use bazaar"?07:27
agoliveiraMithrandir: That's my feeling too. I spent some time yesterday just staring at it. Couldn't find anything to do but detail how bzr works, which is kinda silly.07:27
MithrandirI say mark it as obsolete then?07:28
agoliveiraYour call.07:28
agoliveiraI just couldn't find a better use for it.07:28
=== feig_ is now known as feig
Mithrandirthere07:30
Mithrandirmobile-development-environment07:30
rustyWe need an ubuntu-mobile-dev package that pulls in everything we need to enable building UME applications07:30
Mithrandiryup, that's the goal + some docs.07:30
Mithrandirit's drafting, I suspect it could be approved, I need to look at that next week.07:30
MithrandirI got it in my lap today so I'm not sure what the exact status is.07:31
Mithrandirthe implementation should be straightforward; just another metapackage07:31
charliefjohnsonShould it cover more than Application development ??  What about Drivers ??  07:31
bspencerrusty: Mithrandir what does that include on top of hildon-dev ?07:31
rustybspencer, i don't know07:32
Mithrandirbspencer: any GMAE development packages, maybe?07:32
agoliveirabspencer: Perhaps Xephyr also?07:32
bspenceryes, all good ideas07:32
rustycharliefjohnson, i wouldn't image kernel development for UME to be any different then normal Ubuntu kernel development07:33
Mithrandirrusty: agreed.07:33
charliefjohnsonMithrandir: Even if it is just documentation that Gutsy desktop is the driver development environment.  We will have ODM and third party vendors which will not make it into Gutsy.07:33
bspencerMithrandir: although each app is different and may not need all hte GMAE dev pgks.  But definately Xephyr, Hildon-dev, automake/buildessential, etc.07:34
agoliveirabspencer: I'll see that.07:34
Mithrandirbspencer: sure, not all apps use all the functionality, but it's an easy way to say "if you install this on a clean system, your binary should work without any extra packages on a mobile system"07:34
bspencerMithrandir: but not necessarily the -dev pgs? 07:35
bspenceryou are talking of GMAE generally?  or?07:35
Mithrandirno, but the development packages aren't needed for running the application.07:35
Mithrandirso ubuntu-mobile gives you an ubuntu mobile "desktop".  ubuntu-mobile-dev gives you same, plus all the relevant development packages.07:36
bspencerconsistent.  07:36
Mithrandirok, move on?07:38
agoliveiraOk.07:38
bspenceryep07:38
charliefjohnsonAny comments on my last comment?07:38
=== agoliveira is eager to move on a cup of coffe...
Mithrandircharliefjohnson: ah, yes, sure, we can put in some docs which says how to do driver development.07:38
Mithrandirthat should address your concern?07:38
charliefjohnsonOK. Lets move on.07:39
Mithrandirmobile-maemo-packaging-cleanup is also assigned to me; it should be approved even if we find something that we want to add to it later.  The actual implementation is going well07:39
Mithrandirit's a fairly minor spec too07:39
Mithrandirpower-management-in-ubuntu; Amit?07:40
agoliveiraThis is something I really look forward to find some time to do it.07:40
amitk_yes?07:40
rustyAtomicTodd, you listening?07:40
Mithrandiramitk_: what's the status on that, what's missing for it to be approved?07:40
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amitk_mithrandir: the current document is too generic. We don't yet know the Intel-specific optimisations07:41
Mithrandirwhich is why mobile-power-thermal-optimzations was added?07:41
charliefjohnsonThere may be overlap betwen this and the next spec though you can't tell since the next spec is still a skeleton.07:41
amitk_charliefjohnson mentioned that his team would be preparing specs for those..07:42
amitk_right07:42
rustyamitk_, you got the pointer to the power policy management wiki, right?07:42
amitk_rusty: no07:42
Mithrandircharliefjohnson: ok, so those are really both your specs to draft, or?07:42
rustyit's on the ubuntu wiki... let me see if i can scare up that URL07:42
amitk_mithrandir: we need a generic ubuntu spec and one specific to MIDs07:43
Mithrandirok07:43
rustyhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/PowerPolicyManagement07:43
charliefjohnsonI didn't really know what the first one was.  07:43
rustythat's what AtomicTodd is working on07:43
amitk_charliefjohnson: an overlap is fine as long as we get all the info on there. We can refactor later.07:43
Mithrandirshiny diagrams!07:44
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Mithrandirit looks fairly sane from skimming it07:44
Mithrandirbut shouldn't it be a spec and not just a document?07:44
charliefjohnsonIt sure should be.07:45
charliefjohnsonWhy not replace the wiki page for  power-management-in-ubuntu with this one.07:46
rustythis could be fodder for adding to the blueprint07:46
Mithrandirrusty: either that, or just turn it into a spec07:47
rustyi wasn't sure how this would work, so i just pushed todd to add it to the wiki07:47
rustyeither way, however amitk_ wants to run things07:47
amitk_charliefjohnson: not a good idea. This stuff is going to take bl**dy ages to get accepted by linux-pm and lkml07:47
rustyfor lkml, it's easy since this isn't requiring any kernel changes07:48
rustyit's just a user space stack on existing interfaces07:48
amitk_rusty: I agree this could be the fodder yes. I propose merging this and the other spec from charliefjohnson to ONE spec for Intel MID07:49
charliefjohnsonPPM is an SOW item - so we need to figure out what the right thing is for UME.07:49
rustycharliefjohnson, what's the other spec?07:49
amitk_rusty: I will study this in more detail and get back to you next week07:50
rustyok07:50
rustydo you have todds email?07:50
rustyi'm not actually working on the code07:50
rustyjust the guys who get's kicked in the ass by my boss when it doesn't happen :-<07:51
amitk_rusty: no. Why don't you send me a email with a list of all the people in Intel side contributing to MID kernel-space and low-level userspace and things like PM policy07:51
rustyok07:51
charliefjohnsonWhat was the conclusion on Todd's PPM stuff ?  07:52
charliefjohnsonFrom a spec point of view.07:52
rustyconclusion?07:52
rustythat we will work closely with amit to craft a working spec07:52
rustyer.. blueprint07:52
amitk_right07:52
Mithrandirok, can you have a good spec by next week?07:52
charliefjohnsonIs it going to be a separate spec, linked from the power-management-in-ubuntu spec ???07:53
amitk_charliefjohnson: probably07:53
rustyi'm thinking next week is realistic, amitk_, what do you think?07:53
amitk_rusty: yes. It should be in a fairly good shape, if not complete07:54
Mithrandirok, good.07:54
Mithrandirthen we're halfway through the agenda.  Second point on it is plans for next week.07:55
bspencerMithrandir: one last Q on specs07:55
bspencerMithrandir: there was a spec on "ui style guide"  I wasn't sure if this was the right place for it.  It is now gone?  I added a long detailed document in there from Intel about "UI style"07:55
=== agoliveira think s that we really need a smaller agenda :-D
Mithrandirbspencer: let me see if I can find it again07:56
bspencerMithrandir: just curious.  We can do it after the mtg if you'd prefer, given the time07:56
Mithrandirhttps://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-ui-style-guide07:57
bspenceryes07:57
Mithrandirit falls off the list when it's implemented07:57
bspencerit is informational07:57
Mithrandiryes07:57
bspenceroh07:57
bspencergot it.07:57
bspencernever to be read again07:57
Mithrandirhence it's implemented when it's written07:57
Mithrandir*cough*07:57
bspencerwrite-only specs.07:57
bspencernp07:57
Mithrandirit should probably be referenced from the front page of the mobile and embedded page.07:58
MithrandirI think we've covered where we think specs will be in a week fairly well, does anybody have other plans for the next week?07:58
bspencerBob assignments:  get tickets to sprint, finish media player spec, get browser started with asac, get new MID UI in gutsy07:59
rustyI should have project-builder in a state where it could be added to gutsy07:59
agoliveirarusty: That would be great07:59
charliefjohnsonThere is a possibility of a new spec around Location Based Services.  (GPS aware Apps.)  The team is in Israel so haven't closed yet.08:00
bspencerrusty: and renamed to Mobile Image Creator   ...er sumpin'   (bob hopes)08:00
rustyi like a little mystery08:00
Mithrandirrusty: yeah, we might want to rename it.08:00
Mithrandirif you want mystery, use pwgen to name it.08:00
bspencerMithrandir: :)08:01
rustyi already did that and got "project-builder"08:01
Mithrandirhaha08:01
Mithrandirian_brasil: do you have an update on docs?08:01
rustymy project names are like my web sites... not not flashy08:01
charliefjohnsonOnce it is in, then we can do actual Ubuntu builds as just another SKU besides Desktop and Server??  08:01
Mithrandircharliefjohnson: EXPN SKU?08:01
rustyby adding project-builder then all you have is the ability to do 'apt-get install project-builder'08:02
rustyif your running gutsy08:02
Mithrandirthat's the goal, yes.08:02
Mithrandir(to both of you)08:03
rustyshould we go over the sprint?08:04
Mithrandirsure08:04
charliefjohnsonBefore we do the sprint - Can we target Tribe-3 as the first to include a UME build ?08:04
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Mithrandircharliefjohnson: that sounds reasonable.08:05
=== rusty looks up the schedule
MithrandirJuly 19th08:05
Mithrandirwe'll have some interesting logistics there since a lot of us will be at guadec, but I'm hoping it'll work out anyway08:05
charliefjohnsonI have internal test teams and Intel managers asking me every couple of days.08:05
Mithrandirspeaking of that, any progress on the Q1s?08:06
=== rusty hides
rustythey are scheduled to be arriving now08:06
Mithrandiryou've moved from "next week" to "later this week", I've noticed.08:06
charliefjohnsonHW is a pain in the butt.  08:06
rustybut so far we have only recieved two of them (unless Mauri got some today)08:06
Mithrandirok08:07
agoliveiraI got an email from Maury and (he/she?) told me that they should be sent by the end of this week which mean today ;)08:08
rustyhow many of UME guys will be in London starting next week... would it be better for me to hand carry device for the 9th if they show up next week, or just ship the device for it to be waiting at the developers house when they get back from the sprint?08:08
Mithrandirall of us.08:08
bspenceragoliveira: Mauri is a girl08:08
agoliveirabspencer: Nice08:08
Mithrandirso for the sprint, I'm basically thinking we want to highlight any hot spots which require attention and we want to take a good look at the whole platform to see if we spot any uncovered spots.08:09
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agoliveirarusty: As I told her, that won't work for me due the taxes I would have to pay (60%!)08:09
rustyagoliveira, if i hand carry to London?08:09
agoliveiraspot... I mean, agree08:09
agoliveirarusty: Exactly08:09
rustyok, then shipping it is08:10
agoliveirarusty: It's already arranged.08:10
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rustyhow valuable would it be to carry over some menlow hardware (not for delivery, but for testing)?08:10
Mithrandirrusty: would be useful, I think.08:11
agoliveirarusty: I guess would be nice.08:11
rustyit would be more interesting to hardware guys08:11
agoliveiraYep.08:11
rustycharliefjohnson, would the graphics stuff be far enough along on the 9th to bring up a stack on menlow hardware?08:11
bspencermy schedule has me arriving mid-week.  I'll leave here Tues, I'll arrive tired Wed afternoon.  (July 11th)08:12
charliefjohnsonWe have 2D up now.08:12
charliefjohnson3D - Maybe.  There is a replan going on to not need a closed source kernel module.08:12
rustycharliefjohnson, not worried about 3d yet... for 2d, would it be in bzr in that time frame?08:13
rustyin other words, out in the wild08:13
charliefjohnsonI plan on working with Bryce next week to get it in.08:13
robr2charliefjohnson: there's still an issue with the kernel driver -- it still needs to be built outside the kernel tree (i.e. not a patch) but it's functioning from what i hear08:14
rustyok, i'll see if I can get Rob or Jacob to make the trip and carry a menlow development platform08:14
robr2rusty: i told jacob to start on his visa yesterday for the UK08:14
rustyvisa?08:15
robr2rusty: yes, he needs a visa because he's not a US Citizen08:15
rustyoh, yea, forgot08:15
agoliveirarob2: Weird... not even me need a visa...08:15
rustywe don't need anything right?08:15
agoliveiras/me/I08:15
rustyi didn't something for Australia08:15
robr2rusty: no, just your passport08:16
rustycool08:16
Mithrandirok, anything more for the sprint?08:16
robr2agoliveira: he's a chinese citizen, i think that's why he needs a visa08:16
agoliveirarobr2: Oh, indeed.08:16
rustyi think we are good, and i need to run to my hotel to get a couple of demo devices for the next talk08:16
agoliveiraIm' ok too.08:17
charliefjohnsonI won't be at the sprint since I have relative visiting that week.  08:17
Mithrandirok; I suspect we'll meet later then. :-)08:17
robr2i'm not sure i can make it either...but jacob will be there08:17
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charliefjohnsonWe need to make sure the sprint announcements always go to the core Intel team (rusty, Rob, Bob and Charlie)08:18
Mithrandiryup, agreed08:19
rustyok, gota go08:19
Mithrandirif I failed to do that now, mea culpa and I'll do better in the future.08:19
Mithrandiradjourned, then08:19
bspencerwhew!08:20
agoliveiraOk, bye rusty.08:20
bspenceron 2:2008:20
bspenceronly 2:20 08:20
agoliveiraThat reminded me my times at No machine ;)08:20
MithrandirI think we want to discuss the format of the meeting at the sprint, so we can get it down to < 1 hour08:21
bspencerMithrandir: we had a lot of specs08:21
bspencerthere are fewer now08:22
agoliveiraBut this one was a bit off because of the specs08:22
Mithrandirthey've all run over08:22
bspencerperhaps we should report status ahead of time in someplace.  then we don't have to wait so long for responses and stuff.08:22
Mithrandiranyway; we'll discuss it later08:22
agoliveiraMithrandir: Sure08:22
Mithrandirbspencer: yes, that's what we do for the distro team08:22
kylem/win 9908:39
agoliveirakylen:?08:40
jacob-laptopdoes anyone know the address in UK for ubuntu sprint? i need that info to apply for a visa.08:51
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robr2Mithrandir agoliveira  amitk_  or kylem can you send the UK address info for the sprint in the UK to jacob-laptop ?09:01
agoliveira robr2: By email?09:04
charliefjohnsonPlease send to me also. 09:05
agoliveiraJust paste me the emails and I'll collect the info (it's on a internal wiki) and send right away.09:05
agoliveiraOR I can post on the mobile ML.09:06
robr2agoliveira: just send it to the mobile ML09:09
agoliveiraOk09:09
robr2thanks09:10
agoliveiraDone09:12
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rustybobux, you listening?09:33
bspencerrusty: hellow09:42
bspencerhelloworld09:42
rustyhalley seems to be in over his head09:42
bspencerI could have tol dyou that last week when he arrived09:43
rustybspencer, btw, i didn't mean to say that his dbus server was started wrong, but I think he is running his media service on a terminal that doesn't have access to the display09:43
bspencerrusty: I wondered that09:44
rustythis service needs to open a window... so, that's not going to work09:44
bspenceris it that simple?09:44
rustyyea09:44
rustyfor the error about the DISPLAY09:44
bspencerI'm still at home but I'll go by after lunch09:44
rustyi'm sure he has loads of other issues09:45
bspencersuggestions?09:45
bspenceron the one hand he is probably banging his head against a wall and can't see the window.09:46
bspencerbut if I redirect him then it might take him awhile to ramp on a new task09:46
rustybspencer, i think he going to just have to take some time and learn about low level X... and Keith P. and friends would be a good resource (but tell Keith i said that)09:49
bspencerright.  Maybe Eric?  (is that his name) could help09:50
rustyeric, that's his name09:53
charliefjohnsonEric Anholt - He a driver guy.  Not an X application guy.09:55
asacbspencer: there?10:15
bspencerasac: hello10:18
asacoh great :)10:18
bspencerare you in Germany?10:18
asacfor a minut i thought you are having lunch10:18
asacright10:18
bspencerso 22:1810:18
asachamburg ;)10:18
asacyes10:18
asac@now berlin10:18
asachmmm no bot :)10:19
asacanyway10:19
bspenceractually I have to leave for 15mins...10:19
bspencerany chance you can hang for 15?10:19
asacnow .. ok10:19
bspencerright10:19
asachope so10:19
asac:)10:19
bspencergot to swap cars, wife is waiting outside10:19
bspencerbe back quck10:19
asacsure10:19
asacgogo10:19
bspencerasac: back10:31
asacbspencer: cool10:32
asacok lets start ... what is your idea ... and more important what is the timeline ?10:32
bspencerwe can host the project10:32
bspencerpublic in about a week's time10:32
bspenceralthough we could get access for you earlier perhaps10:32
bspencergit repo10:32
bspencerstarting with the base we talked about yesterday10:33
asacok ... i think i can start without access10:33
bspencerasac: I think I have the general steps in mind10:33
bspenceronce we have the base project setup10:33
bspencerwe can split up the tasks10:33
asacok ... what are the steps?10:33
asacfirst just theming and stripping down UI ?10:34
bspencerys10:34
bspenceryes10:34
bspencerthen deciding on the end goal 10:34
bspencerlooking at features to show10:34
bspencer3) begin porting the menu to the top Hildon menu10:35
bspencer4) re-chrome 10:35
bspencer#4 is probably multiple stages, which we could define10:35
bspencere.g. toolbar is easy, but menus might be a little more.   10:35
asacwhat do you mean by rechrome?10:35
bspencerchange things to be a little more finger-navigable mainly10:35
asacah ok10:36
bspencerand consider the smaller screen10:36
bspencera few ideas from the wireframes:10:36
bspencer - search box maybe slides out when touched, instead of always taking up space10:36
bspencer - remove buttons on toolbar -- only basics10:36
bspencer - scroll thumb behaves a little differently, or is semi-transparent10:36
bspencer (and a little easier to touch)10:37
bspencer#5) Use the Hildon Window10:37
asachmmm don't we need that for the menu already?10:37
asace.g. hildon_window_set_menu ?10:38
bspencerI think the menus can be done separately10:38
asaca right10:38
asachildon_program_set_menu10:38
asaciirc10:38
bspencerI'm kind of a newbie at Hildon myself.10:38
bspencerright, I could use a refresher when I get in there10:38
asacyeah ... i tried to port gnome-terminal to hildon today for a few minutes10:38
asacbut ran into issues with the menu10:38
asace.g. the menu is just one gtk menu ... and not a menu_bar10:39
bspencerit would be nice if we had GTK changes that did the switch automatically10:39
asace.g. you basically can set only *one* menu10:39
bspenceryes, with submenus10:39
bspencerbut everything goes into a drop-down10:39
bspencerand then File, etc. are on that one menu10:39
bspencer(or we reduce the features)10:39
bspencerOnce we have that stuff done I think the browser should be usable at a minimum on the small device10:40
asacok ... so move everything one layer down10:40
bspencermenus:  yes, that is the quick approach.10:40
bspencerbut maybe not the most usable10:40
asacright10:40
bspencerI'm mixed between making it behave /very/ much like Firefox people know, and making it simple and featureless.10:41
bspencerthere is a balance somewhere in there.10:41
asaci think we should define how the menu will look like as we will probably not be able to use the *xul* menus anyway10:41
asacso we are free to do what we want somehow10:41
bspencerhow do the xul menus get translated into Gtk menus now?10:41
asacreally on a low level10:42
bspencerit would be cool if we could use xul menus10:42
asaclike drawing on device context10:42
bspencerhmm, that's pretty low10:42
bspencer:)10:42
bspencerI wonder if there is a way to put something inbweteen that took the xul definitions and made them Hildon-ized10:42
asaci think its safe that we will not be able to use xul menus in first version10:42
bspencerok10:43
bspencerthat's fine10:43
asacmy question is: how are hildon menus realized on a technical level10:43
asacdo they use XEmbed or something?10:43
bspencerI'm unsure.10:43
asacok ... if its xembed we might actually be able to use xul menus (or any other element) at some point10:44
bspencerare you at the sprint in July?10:44
asacyes10:44
asacnext weekend :)10:44
asacit starts10:44
bspenceryes.  I need to buy some tickets10:45
bspenceris launchpad a good place to track all this for now?10:45
bspenceron the mobile blueprint page?10:45
asaci think so10:45
asacusually specs are documented in wiki10:46
bspencerone question10:46
asacand linked from blueprints page10:46
bspenceralright.  I put some stuff up there already10:46
bspencerbut it isn't as concrete as "this is the menu"10:46
bspencerand also sharing ideas discovered for how to change something , etc.10:46
bspencerbut let's use mobile-browser blueprint spec.10:47
bspencerone question:  the tabbed browsing -- should the tabs be at the top of the screen or the bottom, in your opinion?10:47
bspencerHildon style puts their tookbars at the bottom10:47
asachmm10:47
bspencerI'm thinking ideally the location is a configuration setting the user can choose.10:47
asacare there other applications that use tabs?10:48
bspencerother applicatoins that /will/ use tabs.   I'll have to look at my 770 / N80010:48
bspencerlike chat application will use tabs10:48
asacyes it should be configurable if we really want to use tabs like they are in firefox10:48
asaci mean if i look at the hildon desktop the window decoration is already somehow like a tab10:49
bspencerit appears that way due to their theme10:49
Mithrandiragoliveira: sorry, matchbox won't be uploaded today.  I'm just too tired to review this properly.10:49
bspencerif you look at the mobile-ui spec, you'll see that it doesn't always have to look that way.10:49
bspencerMithrandir: slacker10:49
asacyou have a link at hand?10:49
Mithrandirbspencer: yeah, I only started working 14 hours ago.10:50
bspencer:)10:50
asachttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/Browser ?10:50
asacthat one?10:50
bspencerhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserInterface10:50
bspencershows the top-level UI (or something like it).  with ideas inside for other options10:51
asaci don't see how we swich between multiple applications10:52
asac(running applications)10:52
bspencerit would be a plugin on the marquee10:52
bspencerdrop-down, or like gnome panel, or other clever yet-to-be shown idea10:52
bspencerit could also be just like Nokia UI10:52
bspencerwith a little arrow showing running apps10:52
asacah ok10:52
bspencerwe'll cretae plugins for all these and the user can organize them how they wish10:53
bspencerok.  so what can you do in the short term, before we have our repo accessible10:54
bspenceryou can edit the mobile browser spec freely10:54
bspenceryou can look into Hildon porting of Firefox10:55
asaci can hack the configure.in ... so we have an --application=mdi-browser configure swtich10:55
bspencermenus, or windows, toobars, etc.10:55
bspenceryes10:55
asace.g. now you build firefox with --application=browser10:55
bspencermdi-browser -- must plays MDI music10:56
asacrofl10:56
asacwhat target name do you want then?10:56
bspencer"Mobile Internet Browser" ?10:57
bspencerkind of lame10:57
bspencereventually would be nice to get a name10:57
bspencerbut generic is good for today I think10:57
asacMIB ... i thikn i mixed those letters10:57
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bspencerWell, we call our x86-based tablets "Mobile Internet Devices"10:57
bspenceror MID10:57
bspencerso we often refer to things as "MID Browser" "MID Media Player"10:58
asacits your say ... but its probably not hard to change10:58
asacok so lets use application=midbrowser for now?10:58
asacwe can always change that10:58
bspenceryes, good 10:58
asacok ... so i create a local branch of latest upstream 2.0.0.x  ... and add a branch where we will put our patches10:59
asacon that branch i will work on the build system for now11:00
bspencerok11:00
asacand take a look how easy we can use HildonWindow (maybe it just works?)11:00
bspencer(we are using 2.0.0.4 as the base today)11:00
bspencermaybe it just works11:00
asacyes ... thats the latest11:00
bspencerpiece of cake11:01
asacwhat did you do so far?11:01
bspencergreat.  thanks for helping out11:01
bspencerimport, retheme, remove Firefox11:01
asacmaybe you already have hacks that we can make proper?11:01
asacbspencer: branding is simple11:01
bspencerand change the package to use our "Welcome to your Mobile Browser" default webpage11:02
asacok so you really want to make a package right from the beginning?11:02
asacwe can base that on our latest firefox package ... should be fairly easy to adapt11:02
bspencerwe want to have something to put into an image that has the latest UI, browser, media player, etc.  Even at their early stages.   That's the only real reason we packaged it 11:03
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bspencerso someone could get a demo unit working quickly and see the latest progress.11:03
asacok ... i just think we should get at least the basic things gong before caring for packaging.11:04
bspencerwe'd like to regularly update our images so that people can play with the stuff on their Samsung devices (or other, as we discover other good devices)11:04
asacok i can provide a package rather quick ... maybe i can even get someone of mozillateam to help out11:04
asacwhat is regularly?11:04
asacevery 2 weeks?11:04
bspencerasac: it can just be local packaging -- for example in our repo only.  11:04
bspencernot sure if we need to push up formally that part11:05
asacok ... just add it to todo list11:05
asaci can provide a package as soon as we need it then11:05
bspencercool.11:05
asacand updating package to latest is just a matter of rebuilding and changing changelog11:05
bspencerI would say every 2-3 weeks, or when big changes take place11:05
bspencerfor example, in Tribe 3, it would be nice if the image contained a browser, even if it wasn't really optimized for the small screen yet11:06
asacok ... so lets say we try to get a first package ready at the end of spring?11:06
asacsprint11:06
asac:)11:06
asacnot spring11:06
bspencerthat is a good goal.11:06
bspenceryou are right that we can leverage the Firefox packgae11:06
asacshould be doable ... though who knows11:06
bspencerquestion:  we looked at that package and it had a bunch of patches11:06
bspencerdo you write all those patches?11:06
bspencerand do you verify them for ever point release (2.0.0.x) ?11:07
asacno i don't write them11:07
asaci untangled all ... from one huge monolithic patch11:07
asaci wrote some ... but most are from bugzilla11:07
asacbspencer: yes we verify like: we see if they still apply orif the issue they tackle is fixed11:08
asacbut usually i track them in bugzilla ... either submitted them on my own ... or trying to push upstream to include them so we can drop them from our package11:08
asacmy current goal is reduce our patchset with every new release11:09
asac... and try not to add new ... though sometimes i still have to.11:09
bspencerof course11:10
asacok ... can you fill in the steps and a todo list into spec/wiki?11:10
bspenceryes11:10
asaci will look at it then and tell you if i see more... or if you forgot something11:10
bspencerwill do that tomorrow.  today I've got some other deadlines11:10
bspencergood idea11:11
asaccool .. have to go :)11:11
bspencerthanks for your help11:11
asacits late here... and my honey is waiting ;)11:11
bspencerhave a good night.11:11
asacok bye11:11
bspencersounds fun11:11
asacyou too11:11
asachehe11:11
asacbye11:11
bspencerbe11:11
agoliveiraMithrandir: No problem. Sorry for the delay, I was really distracted.11:11
bspencerbye11:11
bspenceragoliveira: hello11:13
bspencerare you about to leave the office?11:13
agoliveirabspencer: Unless you have a good reason not to :)11:15
bspenceragoliveira: tell me yourunderstanding of the control panel status?11:15
agoliveirabspencer: Simply put: none.11:15
agoliveirabspencer: I just packaged the little prick. Have no idea how it works.11:16
agoliveiraOh, sorry11:16
bspencer:)11:16
bspencerok.  so it is in bazaar, but not upstream?11:16
bspencerdoes your package include the newer, in-the-last-week control panel code?11:16
agoliveirabspencer: Yes because it needs to be check and uploaded.11:17
agoliveiraYes, it does.11:17
bspencerso if I pull from bazaar, I should get a working control panel, hopefully11:17
agoliveiraActually it was sync with svn hours ago.11:17
bspencerI will do so, and change the code if I have problems for you to see patches.11:17
agoliveiraJust push there and it will be fine11:17
bspencerwe had some small dependency problems, but maybe you already addressed them11:18
bspencerbut that was just our pulling from svn, not from bazaar11:18
bspencerso I'll try your stuff11:18
agoliveiraBTW, it deppends on l10n files which I also pushed. 11:18
agoliveiraYou will see a dep for osso-app-killer. It's not needed.11:18
bspencerok, that rings a bell11:19
bspencerif I want to create a configuratoin package for hildon desktop in bazaar, do I have the poewr to do that? 11:19
bspenceron Monday I'd like to get the new user interface working, at least in bazaar and ready for pushing up.11:19
agoliveiraSorry, I don't understand what you mean.11:19
bspencerhildon-desktop now shows a Maemo UI11:20
agoliveiraYou mean create a package?11:20
bspencerbut if you check out the mobile-ui spec, we have plans for a very different UI11:20
bspencerhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserInterface11:20
bspencerto get there we need to split the hildon-package configuration stuff into a separate package11:20
bspencers/hildon-package/hildon-desktop package11:20
bspencerso that a user can decide to load the maemo-config or the mid-config  settings11:21
agoliveiraI see. You should have not problems, just branch, hack, push11:21
bspencerok11:21
bspencerand i have a new theme package too11:21
bspencerand I have a new multimedia package too11:21
agoliveiraOnce you're done, ask me or Tollef to upload (actually I'll ask Tollef as I can't do it myself :) )11:21
bspencergroovy11:22
agoliveiraSame thing. AFAIK, should work for you as the same as for me.11:22
agoliveiraOne warning:11:22
bspenceryes11:23
agoliveiraThe way maemo is (de)organized, specially regarding dependencies and locales can be daunting. Shout if you need any help on that. I'll shout with you ;)11:23
bspenceryes -- the locales thing I still don't undertand11:23
agoliveiraThe "daunting" part came from Happy Feet :)11:23
bspencerI finally started grasping the theme. although I still  don't fully understand all the optimized grphics caching and sapwood stuff11:24
agoliveiraAFAIK, that was created to speed up graphics over Nokia tabletes. We will probably going to get rid of it.11:24
agoliveiraAnything else? If not, I'm off but I'll read my emails later or during the weekend if you need anything urgent.11:26
bspencernope11:26
bspencersee you monday11:26
agoliveiraBye. Have a nice weekend.11:26
bspencerthx11:26
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=== who_ [n=family@88-110-105-113.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #ubuntu-mobile
rustywho joined? who quit?12:11
=== robr_laptop_ [n=chatzill@jffwprtest.jf.intel.com] has joined #ubuntu-mobile
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=== robr_laptop__ [n=chatzill@jffwprtest.jf.intel.com] has joined #ubuntu-mobile
=== chrissturm [n=christop@85.127.251.154] has joined #ubuntu-mobile

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