[02:35] <rusty> robr, you around?
[02:35] <robr> yes
[02:35] <robr> rusty, yes
[02:35] <rusty> hows it going
[02:35] <robr> rusty, what's up?
[02:35] <rusty> just arrived at my hotel and checking email
[02:36] <robr> rusty: running into networking issues on the menlow with the USB-Ethernet dongles...linksys works but i can't get the SMC device that ships w/ the knockdown kits to work
[02:36] <rusty> on the flight to Chicago i did some homework on creating init ram disks with mkinitramfs
[02:36] <robr> rusty: cool...is it something you want to add before or after tomorrow's M3.1 release?
[02:36] <rusty> robr, is this exposing a hardware issue with usb, maybe?
[02:37] <rusty> robr, i wouldn't feel comfortable pushing a change till after i get back... maybe, unless i get some good work time tomorrow
[02:37] <rusty> but... 
[02:37] <robr> rusty: not sure, it could be either at the moment...USB HW is still being debugged from what i understand, but i'm suspicious that one brand works and the other doesn't
[02:38] <rusty> mkinitramfs has come a long way since i really used it
[02:38] <robr> rusty: i need to test with a different SMC device
[02:38] <rusty> actually, i think we can really simplify things
[02:38] <robr> rusty: that would be good
[02:39] <rusty> robr, so... you hooking up asit with remote access?
[02:39] <robr> rusty: we could have Alek look at it if you're busy...i'd like to have him add a couple things to project-builder including CD images and kernel command-line options
[02:40] <robr> rusty: now that i've got networking working with the Linksys, it's possible for Asit to remote login, although he never responded to my email
[02:40] <rusty> robr, you think this needs to be in for tomorrow?
[02:40] <robr> which part?
[02:40] <rusty> redoing the initrd creation
[02:40] <robr> i'd think it could wait
[02:40] <rusty> robr, that's what you were talking about, right?
[02:41] <robr> i think what i was talking about Alek doing could wait until after tomorrow
[02:41] <robr> but i know people are asking for ISO image support
[02:42] <rusty> robr, asit did reply
[02:44] <robr> rusty, ahh...i see it now...it was burried in my inbox 
[02:44] <robr> rusty, i'll respond to him in a bit with an ip address he can ssh into the menlow box
[02:58] <robr> rusty: asit should now have what he needs
[09:30] <bspencer> tko: you online?  I'm looking for a good control panel applet example.
[09:30] <bspencer> tko: A guy on my China team wrote a short how-to for control panel applets.  But has problems with the refactored code.
[09:51] <bspencer> Mithrandir: hello, TGIF
[09:52] <bspencer> Mithrandir: am I supposed to change my blueprints to "review" or "pending approval" ?
[09:52] <bspencer> once I'm done?
[09:53] <Mithrandir> bspencer: yes.
[09:53] <Mithrandir> and then I'll go through them and either give you feedback about stuff that needs changing, or approve it.
[09:54] <bspencer> "review"
[09:54] <bspencer> not "pending approval"
[09:56] <Mithrandir> either is fine, since we're not doing reviews, just the approval bit.
[09:56] <Mithrandir> usually, when we do this at a conference we start out by having them go to review where they're then checked for clarity, style, grammar, etc by a person who doesn't actually know about the spec itself.
[09:57] <Mithrandir> the approver, on the other hand, is supposed to make sure it fits into the big picture and do a technical valuation of the spec.
[09:57] <bspencer> ok.  I just chagned them to review
[09:57] <Mithrandir> that's fine, I'll get to it.
[09:57] <bspencer> Mithrandir: a build question for the master
[09:58] <bspencer> we are using pbuilder create --distribution gutsy  (internal builds)
[09:58] <bspencer> and want our chroot'd environ to be able to pull from universe
[09:58] <bspencer> currently it only pulls from main
[09:58] <bspencer> is there a way to indicate this when running pbuilder ?
[09:59] <Mithrandir> add  --othermirror "deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu gutsy universe" to the command line
[09:59] <Mithrandir> (with the quotes)
[09:59] <bspencer> does that also include "main" by default?
[09:59] <bspencer> or also include ..." gutsy main universe..."
[10:00] <Mithrandir> main is included by default, always.
[10:00] <bspencer> ok.  much thanks
[10:04] <lool> Mithrandir: Cool, thanks for merging from Debian
[10:07] <Mithrandir> lool: my pleasure; thanks for taking the effort to make it easy for me to do so
[10:23] <bspencer> asac, Mithrandir question about our browser for mobile
[10:23] <asac_> bspencer: pong
[10:23] <bspencer> we are starting from firefox pristine files (2.0.0.4)
[10:23] <asac_> hi
[10:23] <asac_> ok ... when will we release?
[10:23] <bspencer> we were planning to create a new project called Mobile Internet Browser 
[10:23] <asac_> maybe its better to go trunk?
[10:23] <bspencer> but wondered if we should use existing pristine files in cluded in Firefox ubuntu package 
[10:24] <bspencer> asac_:  you mean not use Firefox tag ?
[10:24] <bspencer> we used firefox tag to pull from Mozilla base
[10:24] <asac_> no ... develop against 3.0
[10:24] <bspencer> using cvs.
[10:24] <bspencer> ah
[10:24] <asac_> at best we could get kind of bzr import or something
[10:24] <asac_> but i think that is more than we can hope for
[10:25] <bspencer> just so we don't spend time banging our heads on new stuff.
[10:25] <bspencer> we figured get something working with 2.0.0.4 base, then move to 3.0 after it was working mainly
[10:25] <asac_> right
[10:25] <asac_> 3.0 will be out in january
[10:26] <bspencer> ok.  I think we can certainly jump when it is ready.  Maybe for next Ubuntu.
[10:26] <asac_> so if we develop for the future we should go that ... if we want to hack something now ... we need to stay on 1.8 branmch
[10:26] <asac_> 1.8 branch == firefox 2.0
[10:26] <bspencer> I don't know much about the difference or how much effort it will be to port what we are changing
[10:26] <bspencer> mainly chrome, some GTK calls
[10:26] <bspencer> we visited with Moz guys and kind of thought 1.8 would be fine.  They said 1.9 gecko in November
[10:27] <asac_> depends ... gecko engine has gotten a huge rewrite ... so porting anything that we adapt in gecko might cause headaches
[10:27] <asac_> ... though i don't think we will really touch things that are hard to port
[10:27] <bspencer> but if we release something in October that isn't done is that a headache?
[10:27] <asac_> yeah novembmer is too optimistic
[10:27] <bspencer> sure
[10:27] <bspencer> so 1.8?
[10:28] <asac_> yes if we want to release in october ... yes
[10:28] <bspencer> ok.  then... should we important a completely independent set of files for our browser ?
[10:28] <asac_> ok lets go back to topic :)
[10:28] <bspencer> disregarding the existing Firefox package also containing pristine files of the same
[10:28] <bspencer> s/important/import
[10:29] <asac_> i would think so
[10:29] <bspencer> me too.  that's our plan
[10:29] <asac_> though most files will just be identical
[10:29] <mdz> bspencer: good evening, up late or traveling?
[10:29] <bspencer> we want to get a package started even if it looks curiously like Firefox at first.
[10:29] <asac_> but that is done for all mozilla products ... so consider it a best practice :)
[10:29] <bspencer> mdz: up late.  internal deadline tomorrow
[10:29] <bspencer> mdz:  (and Mithrandir 's *#@! deadline for blueprints)
[10:30] <bspencer> asac_: ok.  :)
[10:30] <mdz> asac_: do you know yet whether it makes sense for us to make this part of our firefox source package, or something separate?
[10:30] <asac_> for now lets do it separate
[10:30] <bspencer> mdz: yes, my question
[10:30] <asac_> so we can release independently
[10:30] <asac_> ... imo we should try to import source tree to bzr or something
[10:30] <bspencer> and we were also wanting to ensure we did the licensing stuff right.  
[10:30] <Mithrandir> asac_: the LP people are very cautious about importing non-trunk.. :-/
[10:30] <bspencer> so changing all the names from Firefox to "mobile internet browser" or such
[10:31] <bspencer> and then the help looked copyrighted...not sure how much we can alter or include
[10:31] <bspencer> it says "firefox" in many places.  Also about box changed.
[10:32] <Mithrandir> bspencer: hm, MozCo should be fine with you changing it massively if you change the name, I thought.
[10:32] <asac_> Mithrandir: yes ... i don't think its realistic to sync checkins anyway ... I thought more about doing bulk imports on release
[10:33] <asac_> bspencer: we would have to add a PROJECT in client.mk/configure.in
[10:33] <bspencer> Mithrandir: yes, but first we might look very similar
[10:33] <asac_> bspencer: i can get this bootstrapped
[10:33] <bspencer> asac_ that would be great
[10:33] <asac_> but first i have to figure out how we can develop collaboratively :)
[10:33] <Mithrandir> bspencer: iceweasel and firefox both look very similar too.
[10:33] <asac_> e.g. bzr ... git ... or whatever 
[10:33] <Mithrandir> I don't see how that would be a problem as long as we have an intention of fixing it?
[10:35] <bspencer> Mithrandir: agreed
[10:35] <bspencer> asac_ recommend something and we'll follow
[10:35] <Mithrandir> speaking of browser, have we evaluated webkit at all?
[10:35] <bspencer> I updated the blueprint with uninteresting details regarding teh browser
[10:35] <asac_> actually i would prefer to use git ... so we can rebase and keep our patches on top
[10:35] <bspencer> Mithrandir: my understanding was that webkit was lighter and faster, but there wasn't a stable gtk port
[10:36] <bspencer> and not the strong community or familiarity with it
[10:36] <Mithrandir> bspencer: ok.. I talked a bit with the gtk-webkit maintainer at debconf and he urged us to at least look at it, but I agree about the community bit.
[10:37] <bspencer> asac_ git is great for us
[10:37] <asac_> we would have to find how we can host git though :)
[10:38] <Mithrandir> LP doesn't do git
[10:38] <amitk> asac_ kernel team has their git repos exported at kernel.ubuntu.com
[10:38] <asac_> Mithrandir: where is kernel.ubuntu.com hosteed?
[10:38] <Mithrandir> separate machine
[10:38] <amitk> zinc
[10:39] <Mithrandir> I think it might be a challenge, politically, to get git trees hosted in the DC.  The kernel is kinda special and we tried using bzr for that.
[10:40] <asac_> i would be fine with bzr ... if its fast enough for a 300+M source tree (maybe that is resolved by now) ... and if we can rebase
[10:41] <asac_> ... keeping a branch for each patch to get something rebase-like doesn't sound like a feasible way for such a huge tree though
[10:41] <asac_> but i am open for discussion
[10:41] <Mithrandir> you can do a reverse rebase instead of a regular one.
[10:42] <asac_> he?
[10:42] <Mithrandir> so you'd do bzr branch, then merge the previous branch
[10:42] <Mithrandir> that'd almost give you the same thing
[10:52] <bspencer> see you after a few hours of sleep
[10:52] <asac> bspencer: night
[10:55] <asac> Mithrandir: i think i should talk to some bzr people .. who is the one that would know best?
[10:55] <Mithrandir> ask on #bzr?
[10:55] <asac> oh ... those people have not really been helpful in the past :)
[10:55] <asac> i think i will try ddaa
[10:56] <asac> to start :)
[11:43] <mdz> asac: please take some time to talk with the bzr team about your needs, as we would prefer to use bzr if it meets them
[11:44] <asac> mdz: yes ... i will definitly do
[11:47] <mdz> asac: talk to Martin Pool, rather than ddaa
[11:56] <asac> mdz: whats his nick?
[11:57] <Mithrandir> poolie, iirc
[11:57] <asac> thanks
[12:11] <asac> hmmm ubuntu-mobile doesn't install hildon-desktop ... is that a bug or a feature?
[12:13] <Mithrandir> it's because you're on amd64, and hildon-desktop was FTBFS when ubuntu-meta was last uploaded.
[12:14] <asac> ah ok
[12:14] <asac> now i started it ... and hildon-desktop just crashed :/
[12:14] <asac> last week it started ... but when clicking on something it crashed
[12:14] <Mithrandir> in general, hildon doesn't work completely correct on amd64, I would recommend using an i386 chroot
[12:14] <asac> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/27754/
[12:14] <asac> ok
[12:15] <asac> any known reasons why this is the case?
[12:15] <Mithrandir> sizeof(void*) != sizeof(int), in general.
[12:15] <Mithrandir> I would also guess that you didn't use the start-hildon script?
[12:16] <asac> i used the script from wiki
[12:16] <Mithrandir> ok, then you should be good
[12:16] <asac> lets see what happens on i386
[12:20] <asac> Mithrandir: it crashes as well
[12:20] <asac> Mithrandir: ah ... just saw that i need ume user?
[12:20] <asac> why that?
[12:20] <Mithrandir> no, you shouldn't necessarily need it.
[12:20] <asac> hmm
[12:20] <asac> then i have no idea
[12:21] <Mithrandir> anyway, it works for me in a fresh chroot, as of yesterday
[12:21] <asac> i just recopied the start script
[12:21] <asac> in case it has changed in last week
[12:21] <asac> but no improvement
[12:23] <Mithrandir> mdz: is it correct that  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-development-environment is still drafting?
[12:25] <Mithrandir> mdz: and can you set ubuntu-mobile as the approver on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-mediaplayer ?  I can't edit it otherwise.
[12:25] <Mithrandir> ditto for https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-browser
[12:37] <Mithrandir> mdz: you're drafter for https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-maemo-packaging-cleanup ; I think it should be approved even if we might discover new problems that needs to be cleaned up, so unless you protest I'll just mark it as approved.
[12:53] <mdz> Mithrandir: packaging-cleanup -> fine
[12:53] <mdz> Mithrandir: media-player -> done
[12:54] <mdz> Mithrandir: I need for you or adilson to take over development-environment; I can't put the time in right now
[12:55] <Mithrandir> I'll be happy to take it
[12:57] <mdz> thanks
[02:10] <Mithrandir> hiya rusty
[02:10] <Mithrandir> how's OLS?
[02:18] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: I think we should start on getting you through MOTU and such, so you can do your own uploads, at least to universe.
[02:19] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: any thoughts on that?
[02:19] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: That would be helpful. BTW, saw your last email. Got it.
[02:20] <Mithrandir> it's not a big deal, it just looks better to use the standard syntax.
[02:21] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: No problem. I'm aways open to learn ;)
[02:25] <rusty> morning... I haven't hit the conf floor yet... still getting ready in my room 
[02:30] <Mithrandir> ah
[02:32] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: asac complained about hildon falling over when trying to start the UI; can you reproduce it?  (I can, but I'm not sure where the problem lies)
[02:35] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Until yesterday (when I was testing the dbus with you) it was fine here. I can try again to see if anything changed.
[02:35] <Mithrandir> make sure to upgrade the chroot first
[02:36] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Ok.
[02:38] <Mithrandir> meh, and hildon-control-panel needs an -l10n-mr package
[02:39] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Yes, I put that on the TODO. I already prepared the package yesterday but it need to be uploaded.
[02:40] <Mithrandir> is it in bzr?
[02:40] <agoliveira> Yep.
[02:40] <Mithrandir> oh, excellent, you're way ahead of me, then. :-)
[02:42] <agoliveira> Hmmm... now that you mentioned, I remember that I did push it yesterday but I can't find it on the mobile list. Let me see what happened.
[02:44] <Mithrandir> https://launchpad.net/hildon-control-panel-l10n doesn't have an import
[02:44] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: My bad. I registered it but was waiting for the import
[02:44] <agoliveira> from svn.
[02:44] <Mithrandir> hm
[02:46] <Mithrandir> are you sure?  I can't see any SVN details connected to it
[02:46] <asac> agoliveira: if you need any info ... let me know
[02:46] <agoliveira> https://launchpad.net/hildon-control-panel-l10n/trunk
[02:46] <asac> agoliveira: it just crashes here ... same for amd64 and i386 chroot
[02:46] <agoliveira> Subversion:             https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/hildon-control-panel-l10n                                        Import status:           Testing
[02:46] <asac> last week it crashed when i click on something ... now it crashes right at startup
[02:46] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: ok, I can see that. Just strange it's not listed at all in the list of imports.
[02:47] <agoliveira> asac: Sure, let me test it here first.
[02:47] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: you're prodding our LP guy when he shows up, I presume?
[02:47] <agoliveira> Yep. That was the first thing on my TODO for today.
[02:55] <Mithrandir> I'm taking a break now, phone me if there's anything urgent?
[02:56] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Nope. Call you is be expensive :-D
[02:56] <agoliveira> s/is be/is
[02:57] <lool> Mithrandir: Instead of patching gconfschemasdir, you might want to call dh_gconf
[02:57] <lool> Oh nm, you do call dh_gconf; you don't need to patch gconfschemasdir though
[02:58] <lool> dh_gconf will pick the files in /etc
[02:58] <agoliveira> asac: The crash you saw earlier was caused by a bug already solved. Yesterday I tested the last batches and it works fine. I'm checking out right now again, just in case.
[02:58] <agoliveira> earlier = the first you mentioned.
[03:04] <agoliveira> asac: I just tested it here using the procedure described here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/HildonDesktopManualProcedure and I can click, run other applications, same as yesterday. Are you sure you didn't miss anything?
[03:04] <agoliveira> I even have the side panel working now, btw.
[03:15] <Mithrandir> lool: oh, ok, thanks.
[03:16] <asac> agoliveira_brb: i didn't setup a clean chroot
[03:17] <asac> agoliveira_brb: maybe there are some conflicts?
[03:17] <asac> agoliveira_brb: or leftover files from last weeks which have not been properly cleaned up?
[03:17] <asac> i just apt-get install ubuntu-mobile ... and dist-upgraded to get the latest
[03:19] <asac> agoliveira_brb: btw, i got bug 123003 when doing this on amd64 ... don't looked if the same occured during i386 upgrade
[03:21] <agoliveira> asac: That's possible. We have being messing with a lot of stuff and perhaps some dependencies are not being updated correctly. I sugest you try with a clean chroot and see what happens. We don't have clean support for 64 bit yet. Maemo code simply is not ready for it and we are going to need a lot of tweaking to do it.
[03:22] <asac> oh damn ... why can't you package things properly ... setting up a new chroot isn't exactly what i like to do :)
[03:22] <asac> lets see
[03:22] <asac> i will remove stuff and look for any leftover
[03:23] <Mithrandir> asac: it's already fixed in bzr
[03:23] <asac> agoliveira: have you looked at bug 123003 ?
[03:23] <asac> Mithrandir: what is fixed in bzr? e.g. what is the problem?
[03:24] <agoliveira> asac: I really don't know if it was your case yesterday I just updated my chroot and it worked.
[03:24] <Mithrandir> asac: 123003 is fixed in bzr.
[03:24] <asac> agoliveira: what package can i remove to purge everything?
[03:24] <asac> Mithrandir: ah ok.
[03:24] <asac> Mithrandir: might that cause problems?
[03:24] <asac> like crash on startup?
[03:24] <Mithrandir> I doubt it
[03:24] <asac> k
[03:26] <agoliveira> asac: Removing hildon-desktop should do the trick for the base packages but the is some data like the themes that you might have to remove manually.
[03:27] <asac> hildon-desktop doesn't remove anything else :) ... 
[03:27] <asac> apt-get remove libhildon-1-0 libosso1 libhildonwm0
[03:27] <asac> looks better
[03:27] <asac> but stilll i have the feeling that there is something else ... like maemo :)
[03:31] <asac> ok ... i think i purged everything ... lets install ubuntu-mobile again :)
[03:34] <asac> agoliveira: which package ships the /etc/hildon-desktop files?
[03:35] <asac> hildon-desktop right?
[03:35] <agoliveira> asac: I believe so.
[03:35] <asac> yes ok ... lets see
[03:40] <asac> agoliveira: ok ... now it doesn't crash anymore :) ... but in xephyr window i just see the side bar for less than half a second then all disappaers again
[03:40] <asac> log is http://pastebin.mozilla.org/111167
[03:41] <asac> anyway ... if you don't see it right now ... i will try with fresh chroot
[03:41] <asac> but not today :)
[03:41] <Mithrandir> asac: it's something in osso-init which fails
[03:41] <chrissturm> hey guys! what are the target devices for ubuntu-mobile? will it work fine with a n800?
[03:42] <Mithrandir> chrissturm: it's not the initial target, no.
[03:42] <Mithrandir> we're initially targetting intel-based devices
[03:42] <chrissturm> are devices like that already available?
[03:43] <agoliveira> asac: There is a glib message that's new to me too :-/
[03:45] <asac>  ... ** (hildon-desktop:25339): CRITICAL **: hildon_home_window_set_work_area: assertion `HILDON_IS_HOME_WINDOW (window) && work_area' failed
[03:45] <asac> that looks definitely critical :)
[03:45] <agoliveira> chrissturm: Also, the N770 and N800 have some proprietary parts so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for anything but Nokia code into it.
[03:45] <asac> right after the critical pointer assertion
[03:46] <asac> hmmm '/bin/sh: /usr/bin/esd: not found' ... then
[03:46] <asac> ' WARNING **: Failed to initialize libOSSO'
[03:46] <agoliveira> asac: Yep.
[03:46] <asac> is that related?
[03:46] <agoliveira> asac: Let me check mine here.
[03:46] <asac> i mean does libosso fail because there is no esd
[03:46] <asac> =
[03:46] <asac> aahhh
[03:47] <asac> keyboards
[03:47] <agoliveira> asac: I don't know, I just pack things here :-D
[03:47] <tko_> libosso init failure is usually because of missing dbus
[03:47] <asac> tko_: ok is that a problem?
[03:47] <asac> or just ignorable?
[03:48] <agoliveira> tko_: I was about to say that! Not fari! :-D
[03:48] <tko_> apps might crash
[03:48] <agoliveira> s/fari/fair
[03:48] <tko_> agoliveira, you're just packaging things, remember :)
[03:48] <asac> so how do i make dbus work in my chroot?
[03:48] <agoliveira> tko_: That's why I wanted to say it ;)
[03:49] <agoliveira> asac: That's a vewy vewy good question... I didn't worry about it because mine just worked.
[03:49] <asac> your dbus works?
[03:49] <asac> or you your hildon desktop?
[03:50] <agoliveira> asac: I just follow the instructions and it works. I never needed to do anything extra.
[03:50] <agoliveira> asac: Both
[03:50] <asac> agoliveira: you don't get the dbus warning?
[03:50] <asac> in line 11 of my log?
[03:51] <agoliveira> asac: Nope. 
[03:52] <asac> ok maybe i miss a mount
[03:52] <asac> lets see
[03:55] <asac> $ sudo mount --bind /tmp ${DIR}/tmp
[03:55] <asac> agoliveira: ^^^ why do we need to mount tmp?
[03:56] <Mithrandir> to access the X server
[03:56] <agoliveira> asac: IIRC, it was something related to the the X sockets
[03:56] <agoliveira> asac: Just in case ;)
[03:56] <asac> makes no difference
[03:57] <asac> i crashes again :/  ... i am out of this for today i guess ;)
[03:57] <agoliveira> asac: That's really strange. It has to be something there because it's being working fine for several people.
[03:58] <asac> yes ... its strange ... i still think i have leftover
[03:58] <asac> from last week
[03:58] <agoliveira> asac: Why don't you try from scratch?
[04:00] <asac> because i usually don't accept that i need to wipe a chroot :) just to test latest ... especially since i don't want to develop mobile core , but just browser :/
[04:00] <asac> but yes ... i will probably do it
[04:00] <asac> on monday :)
[04:00] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: I can reproduce the problem here, so it's not just asac.
[04:00] <Mithrandir> and wiping out where the problem might be found is wrong; better to track it down and fix it.
[04:00] <asac> right
[04:01] <asac> should be a packaging bug if it really works with clean chroot
[04:01] <asac> Mithrandir: does dbus work for you ?
[04:01] <asac> or do you get the warning at the beginning as well?
[04:01] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: I know that, I was suggest trying from scratch on a different chroot to have something to compare with.
[04:02] <asac> agoliveira: i trust you to tell the truth
[04:02] <asac> Mithrandir: i see ** (hildon-desktop:25881): DEBUG: Failed to connect to DBUS: Failed to connect to socket /var/run/dbus/system_bus_socket: Connection refused!
[04:02] <agoliveira> asac: Why wouldn't I do it?
[04:02] <asac> at the beginning (line 11 or so)
[04:03] <asac> agoliveira: i ment i don't have to setup clean chroot to see that it works ... i am sure that it does
[04:03] <asac> and since my chroot has lots of other stuff installed i cannot really do a diff on a clean install and the one i have right now
[04:04] <agoliveira> asac: Oh, fine. I tought you were using this one ony for testing UME. That's why I suggested that.
[04:04] <Mithrandir> asac: bingo, restarting dbus in the chroot fixed it for me.
[04:04] <asac> how do i do that?
[04:05] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: it'll break for you too if you reboot and don't start dbus in the chroot by hand
[04:05] <asac> and why does it start for agoliveira automagically?
[04:05] <Mithrandir> /etc/init.d/dbus restart
[04:05] <asac> lets see :)
[04:05] <Mithrandir> I would guess he hasn't rebooted since he bootstrapped the chroot.
[04:05] <rusty> Mithrandir, sorry... just popping in.... about that error: you see that dbus error if you chroot inside a file system that the system dbus is not running or if you did not start a clean environment and the connection to an existing session bus fails
[04:05] <asac> Mithrandir: rock!
[04:05] <asac> it works
[04:05] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: IF I stop dbus indeed the error shows up.
[04:05] <Mithrandir> rusty: yup, we just triaged it down to that now.
[04:06] <asac> agoliveira: hell ... why didn't you tell me that you start dbus by hand :) ... is that on the wiki page?
[04:06] <Mithrandir> no, it's not.
[04:07] <asac> Enter the chroot and su - to the user created above. That will start the dbus session.
[04:07] <Mithrandir> asac: that's plain wrong
[04:07] <asac> that sounds as if its wrong
[04:07] <asac> ok i will fix
[04:07] <Mithrandir> rusty: does your project builder start dbus in the chroot automatically?
[04:07] <rusty> one complicating factor is that dbus is automatically started with you install the dbus package, so people get a chroot working and don't realize that dbus was started so that they see the problem after rebooting
[04:07] <agoliveira> asac: Because I didn't!
[04:07] <rusty> Mithrandir, no, not yet... it's one of those things i want to add
[04:08] <Mithrandir> this is why chroots suck. :-P
[04:08] <rusty> but... i do have a wrapper for chroot to stick in all those details so people don't have to remember all the steps
[04:08] <Mithrandir> or part of the reason anyway.
[04:08] <asac> ok done
[04:08] <asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/HildonDesktopManualProcedure
[04:08] <asac> though i use schroot ... but i think i people can figure out :)
[04:09] <asac> Mithrandir: maybe there are hooks to execute something when entering chroot?
[04:09] <agoliveira> asac: Actually I forgot to remove that reference yesterday.
[04:09] <asac> he?
[04:09] <asac> remove?
[04:09] <asac> i just added something :)
[04:10] <agoliveira> asac: "Enter the chroot and su - to the user created above. That will start the dbus session."
[04:10] <asac> ah ... ok ... now it should be more explicit
[04:10] <agoliveira> Sure
[04:10] <asac> without that hint there was nothing about dbus at all
[04:10] <asac> ok fine :)
[04:10] <asac> lets move ahead ;)
[04:11] <asac> is it a problem that sapwood-server et al are started everytime i run that startscript?
[04:11] <asac> i killed them manually for now
[04:12] <asac> damn ... now i get a bad X window crash when clicking on side bar
[04:12] <rusty> doesn't the sapwood server die with X dies?
[04:12] <Mithrandir> I've put a start-hildon script in the hildon-desktop pacakge
[04:12] <Mithrandir> rusty: it does, yes, but gconfd keeps running
[04:12] <Mithrandir> start-hildon should possibly go on a killing spree before starting anything.
[04:13] <asac> hmmm on second try it works
[04:13] <asac> cooollll i have firefox running :)
[04:14] <agoliveira> asac: I even run openoffice on it. Albeit useless is interesting to see :)
[04:14] <asac> http://people.ubuntu.com/~asac/hildon.png
[04:14] <asac> why is there such a huge blue area on the left?
[04:14] <asac> it takes a way precious space here
[04:15] <tko_> that's the status bar :)
[04:15] <asac> he?
[04:15] <tko_> bug
[04:15] <Mithrandir> it doesn't look that way for me
[04:15] <tko_> fixed in later hildon-desktop versions
[04:15] <asac> ah :)
[04:15] <asac> maybe fixed in bzr then
[04:15] <agoliveira> asac: Are you sure you have a recent hildon-desktop?
[04:15] <asac> hey i purged and installed ten times in the last 2 hours
[04:15] <agoliveira> asac: This was solved some time ago and mine is fine.
[04:16] <asac> what package version do you want?
[04:16] <agoliveira> asac: Hold on a minute
[04:17] <asac> dist-upgrade just brings me new libcairo ... so i appear to be up-to-date
[04:17] <agoliveira> asac: 0.0.14-2ubuntu4
[04:17] <asac> hilden desktop is 0.0.14-2ubuntu4
[04:17] <asac> yes
[04:17] <asac> same here
[04:17] <agoliveira> Weird...
[04:17] <asac> maybe there is some config file created in my home from last week?
[04:17] <asac> does hildon create configs?
[04:17] <asac> that i might try to wipe?
[04:17] <agoliveira> asac: Check if /etc/hildon-desktop/desktop.conf has the last session commented out.
[04:18] <rusty> The day before yesterday I saw Bob had the new layout of the desktop working (i.e. you no longer had the waisted space on the left hand side of the screen)
[04:18] <rusty> so i guess bob has some check-ins to make
[04:18] <asac> agoliveira: oh i understood from wiki that i should enable it:)
[04:19] <asac> maybe misread
[04:19] <asac> lets see
[04:19] <agoliveira> asac: It does create a .osso directory so this might be
[04:19] <agoliveira> asac: Ah
[04:19] <agoliveira> asac: Actually this should not be a issue anymore as I already fixed on the package
[04:19] <asac> ok all is solved
[04:19] <asac> thanks :)
[04:20] <agoliveira> asac: My pleasure
[04:20] <Mithrandir> rusty: another solution would be to bind-mount /var/run
[04:20] <asac> so now ... the menus in firefox should go away ?
[04:21] <asac> is that the idea?
[04:21] <asac> e.g. same for toolbar and locationbar?
[04:21] <agoliveira> asac: That I don't know but it's quite possible as the idea is to have a integrated context menu due size/space restrictions.
[04:22] <suihkulokki> firefox presumably does not use normal gtkmenus
[04:22] <asac> yes right
[04:22] <asac> i mean ... do we have a gtk applictaion or something that does that already?
[04:22] <asac> suihkulokki: yes i know :)
[04:24] <agoliveira> asac: AFAIK, we don't have any application already done to work inside that context but usually simpler things like gnome games behave much nicer.
[04:25] <asac> how can i start an application? .. maybe we should add a terminal?
[04:25] <asac> :)
[04:26] <agoliveira> asac: Just go to a terminal and run DISPLAY=:1 whatever_app
[04:27] <asac> yeah i know :)
[04:27] <asac> so why doesn't hildon fallback to default icons if there are no in the theme?
[04:27] <asac> e.g ** (hildon-desktop:26750): WARNING **: Error loading icon '/usr/share/icons/sun-java6.xpm': Icon '/usr/share/icons/sun-java6.xpm' not present in theme
[04:27] <asac> while /usr/share/icons/sun-java6.xpm *exists*
[04:28] <agoliveira> asac: I have no idea. Never dug into the theme stuff. Perhaps the Nokia guys can answer.
[04:28] <asac> ok ... not really important
[04:29] <asac> just would like to the firefox.png displayed :)
[04:29] <agoliveira> Some icons actually work, some not.
[04:34] <inz> http://inz.fi/mubu-abi.png
[04:36] <inz> The theming really breaks :/
[04:43] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Can you upload matchbox-window-manager-maemo?
[04:46] <agoliveira> inz: What have you done?
[04:48] <agoliveira> Rusty: Really sucks when you go to an event like that and it's not what you expect. I remember FISL 6.
[04:48] <rusty> i've been to OLS for the past... i don't know... maybe 5 years.  this year is weaker then past years
[04:49] <inz> agoliveira, I edited /etc/hildon-desktop/desktop.conf and changed the tasknavigator orientation to bottom instead of left
[04:52] <agoliveira> inz: So you're on your own for now ;) The Plankton theme is there because we need something to start with but I don't think it's going to stay.
[04:53] <agoliveira> inz: and becasue hildon-desktop demands a theme as well.
[04:54] <inz> http://inz.fi/mubu-cpu.png
[04:54] <inz> yay, my cpu load applet works ;)
[04:55] <inz> if only the statusbar worked properly ;)
[04:58] <agoliveira> Meeting in 62 minutes, right?
[04:58] <agoliveira> I'm going lunch then. BRB.
[05:14] <asac_> agoliveira_lunch: do we have an application that properly integrates its menu bars into the toolbar atm? ... so i can take a look and get an idea?
[05:19] <tko> asac: look up hildon_window_set_menu() 
[05:19] <asac_> tko: i know that method
[05:19] <asac_> just wanted to see a real life example :)
[05:19] <tko> n800 *g*
[05:20] <asac_> hehe
[05:20] <tko> well, hildon-control-panel actually
[05:21] <agoliveira> Quick lunch today ;)
[05:21] <asac_> tko: yeah ... i don't consider that a good example as its natural place is the control panel :)
[05:21] <agoliveira> asac_: No, I don't but, sorry.
[05:22] <asac_> i think i will try to hack gnome-terminal
[05:22] <agoliveira> asac_: Forget the but ;)
[05:22] <asac_> can i just set the gtk_menu ... as hildon menu?
[05:22] <tko> asac_: you said you knew the function already :-P
[05:22] <tko> asac_: yes, it takes a normal GtkMenu
[05:22] <asac_> k cool
[05:23] <asac_> i know like i have seen it in api :)
[05:33] <inz> asac, check osso-xterm
[05:38] <asac> inz: hmm appears to be not packaged :-P
[05:38] <asac> yet
[05:40] <agoliveir1> Damn freenode...
[05:50] <agoliveira> Meeting in 10?
[05:54] <ian_brasil> ola
[05:57] <agoliveira> ian_brasil: Oi Ian. Bem vindo ao nosso cantinho ;)
[05:58] <ian_brasil> valew...acho melhor a gente se-fala em portuguese, ne ;)
[05:58] <agoliveira> ian_brasil: Voc que manda, mano ;)
[05:59] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: I need to look at what's different there compared to the regular matchbox, but otherwise, yes, I'll do
[05:59] <Mithrandir> hi rusty
[06:00] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: There were several patches made by Nokia. I don't know what they do exactly.
[06:00] <Mithrandir> No Bob here yet.
[06:00] <agoliveira> Nope
[06:01] <tko> agoliveira: my guess would be they add / fix window frame animation or fix window stacking issues
[06:01] <agoliveira> tko: Yes, I saw that, I meant I didn't know what it would mean for us.
[06:02] <agoliveira> So there's Bob!
[06:03] <bspencer> agoliveira, good morning
[06:03] <agoliveira> bspencer: Good afternoon ;)
[06:03] <Mithrandir> morning, mr Spencer.
[06:03] <tko> agoliveira: maybe you could get Matthew comment on them in ubuntu context.. generally there should be single way of doing the window stacking (i.e. no patches) but I don't know for certain
[06:03] <Mithrandir> ah, Charlie is here already.
[06:04] <charliefjohnson> Yep - I'm here.
[06:04] <agoliveira> tko: Fine. Anyway, I put it in a different branch so we can jump back if necessary.
[06:04] <asac> hi
[06:04] <robr2> good morning everyone
[06:04] <Mithrandir> amitk_: are you here or is it just your IRC client?
[06:05] <Mithrandir> oh well, seems like he's not here, I think we can manage without him.
[06:06] <Mithrandir> I'd like to get us started then, unless anybody sees anyone missing?
[06:06] <rusty> hello
[06:06] <charliefjohnson> Let's start.
[06:06] <Mithrandir> Ok, the plan is to go through the list of specs, get status updates.
[06:07] <Mithrandir> I suggest we just go through them in the default sort order on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/
[06:07] <Mithrandir> which then starts with mobile-app-framework
[06:07] <Mithrandir> Adilson and I have been busy bringing in some more fixes, mostly packaging-related.
[06:08] <Mithrandir> there are some problems running the code properly on AMD64/EM64T, so we recommend using a 32 bit chroot for now.
[06:08] <asac> netsplit
[06:08] <Mithrandir> yeah, I noticed.
[06:08] <agoliveira> Gee...
[06:08] <asac> bob is gone
[06:09] <rusty> bobux, you listening?
[06:09] <asac> maybe move to oftc for meetings :-P
[06:09] <Mithrandir> we have lots of ground to cover, so I'll just paste him the backlog when he gets back.
[06:09] <asac> rofl
[06:09] <Mithrandir> any questions about the application framework itself?
[06:10] <rusty> how are the startup scripts comming?
[06:10] <Mithrandir> I haven't started investigating them; Adilson, have you?
[06:10] <agoliveira> Nope.
[06:11] <agoliveira> I can take care of this.
[06:11] <Mithrandir> ok, thanks.
[06:11] <rusty> my hack has been to add a init script that does startx, and then move the hildon startup script to /root/.xinitrc (after removing the line that sets the display variable)
[06:11] <agoliveira> As I mostly finished the panel, I can take some time for that.
[06:11] <Mithrandir> the hildon startup script is now in the hildon-desktop package, btw
[06:12] <Mithrandir> (called start-hildon)
[06:12] <agoliveira> Yep, saw it.
[06:12] <asac> does that replace the one in wiki?
[06:12] <charliefjohnson> Is hildon-desktop a toplevel package that pulls everything else in ??
[06:12] <Mithrandir> no, ubuntu-mobile is
[06:12] <agoliveira> asac: yes
[06:12] <asac> great
[06:12] <Mithrandir> asac: it's the same, but it starts dbus too
[06:13] <charliefjohnson> OK - thanks.
[06:13] <Mithrandir> ok, let's move on.
[06:13] <Mithrandir> Rusty has done great work on the image creation spec.
[06:13] <Mithrandir> and the implementation seems to be good too.
[06:14] <Mithrandir> rusty: we need to talk about how to actually do the package building since it'll build as a non-root user.
[06:14] <rusty> the current implementation needs some work on how it creates initrd images
[06:14] <Mithrandir> but we can do that outside of the meeting.
[06:14] <rusty> Mithrandir, yea, i've even wondered if building the rootstraps should happen as a postinst script on the user's machine
[06:15] <rusty> that would mean a much smaller deb package but a long install
[06:15] <agoliveira> rusty: I would prefer that way.
[06:15] <Mithrandir> or it could happen on demand when the user requests it.
[06:15] <rusty> rusty, building the rootstraps at install time?
[06:15] <agoliveira> rusty: Yes, but it's my personal feeling.
[06:16] <Mithrandir> rusty: is there anything apart from the initramfs building and the rootstrap build issues that's outstanding there?
[06:16] <rusty> oh, also... maybe the first time a user tries to build an image for a given platform
[06:17] <rusty> Mithrandir, that's initrd building and rootstrap file creation are the two big items
[06:17] <Mithrandir> ok
[06:17] <rusty> beyond that it's bug fixing once more users are finding problems
[06:17] <Mithrandir> of course.
[06:17] <charliefjohnson> Do we have an estimate as to when we'll have UME images as part of the standard Ubuntu builds ?? Or at least have project builder available so that images could be generated ??
[06:17] <rusty> and i think i know how to fix the initrd thing... did some study on the flight to Chicago
[06:18] <rusty> well, first i need to fix the rootstrap and initrd issues
[06:18] <Mithrandir> charliefjohnson: once we have worked out how to do build the package as non-root, it should be fairly simple.
[06:18] <Mithrandir> charliefjohnson: I'd guess we'll have dailies either next week or during the sprint.
[06:19] <charliefjohnson> what sprint?
[06:19] <agoliveira> ... and The Root said "There be Bob!" and Bob is back... the The Root wonders if it was good or not...
[06:19] <rusty> :->
[06:19] <Mithrandir> the one in London starting July 9th
[06:19] <charliefjohnson> That's news to me.
[06:19] <agoliveira> charliefjohnson: There will be some intel guys there.
[06:20] <rusty> we should setup an agenda item to go over what we want to accomplish for and what has to be done before the sprint
[06:20] <Mithrandir> it's a Canonical distro sprint, and I sent an invitation to you (Intel); I can check exactly whom I sent it to.
[06:20] <ian_brasil> is it open to the community?
[06:20] <agoliveira> ian_brasil: Sorry, it is not.
[06:20] <ian_brasil> ok
[06:20] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: wait a second
[06:21] <Mithrandir> ian_brasil: traditionally, it has been, but it's a sprint, and there are no sponsorships or anything given out for it.
[06:21] <rusty> I'm still working on who from OTC will be there, but at the very least Bob and I will be in London... did you want to cover the sprint now or later in the meeting?
[06:21] <Mithrandir> later's fine
[06:21] <ian_brasil> i am in the uk waiting for my work visa for Brazil
[06:21] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: I'm sorry. I tought this one would be diffent for being on Canonical HQ.
[06:22] <Mithrandir> ian_brasil: ok; I can check what our position on it is.  I'm happy for a small number of people to come in, but it's just not a big community event like the UDS-es are.
[06:22] <ian_brasil> cool, let me know
[06:22] <Mithrandir> will do
[06:22] <Mithrandir> let's move on?
[06:23] <Mithrandir> mobile kernel
[06:23] <charliefjohnson> No kernel reps ?
[06:23] <Mithrandir> bspencer: do you want a paste of what you missed when you were away?
[06:24] <Mithrandir> no, but I can give a short update on it.
[06:24] <rusty> is there lpia kernel build available yet... i.e. something in the gutsy repositories
[06:24] <charliefjohnson> Rob - Any updates on Poulsbo patches beyond what you already gave to Ben ??
[06:24] <Mithrandir> rusty: no, we are having some problems getting LPIA bootstrapped.  I'm working on fixing it, but it takes some time, unfortunately.
[06:24] <kylem> poulsbo patches are going to go into the next upload, along with a UME config.
[06:25] <Mithrandir> kylem: oh, good.
[06:25] <bspencer> Mithrandir: I'm good
[06:25] <robr2> amit gave jacob a kernel to test with our patches applied, i've not heard from jacob on the status 
[06:25] <kylem> amit kucheira will be taking over for me.
[06:25] <kylem> i expect as soon as we can actually build something with a lpia chroot, we'll have a UME flavour on that arch as well.
[06:25] <charliefjohnson> Question: How to handle kernel modules that are part of other blueprints such as graphics ??  (drm.ki & psk.ko) 
[06:26] <charliefjohnson> s/ki/ko/
[06:26] <Mithrandir> they should still go to the kernel team, naturally.
[06:26] <rusty> charliefjohnson, will they not be a kernel patch?
[06:26] <kylem> charliefjohnson, for the "problematic" ones, we'll likely put them in their own seperate packages, but will be maintained by the kernel team still
[06:26] <kylem> the rest will be integrated.
[06:27] <robr2> kylem: one problem we're having with the kernel patches is you need to pass in the kernel cmdline option "nolapic_timer" to get around a boot hang"
[06:27] <charliefjohnson> The Poulsbo specific drm module (psb.ko) is brand new.  drm.ko however is the rewrite with the drm memory management.
[06:28] <Mithrandir> robr2: make sure to file a bug about that and subscribe ubuntu-mobile
[06:28] <kylem> charliefjohnson, right, we haven't really talked about it yet, but i've worked out in my head the easiest thing to do is for the UME config to turn off in-kernel drm entirely and build it seperately.
[06:28] <robr2> Mithrandir: ok
[06:28] <charliefjohnson> Great!
[06:28] <kylem> charliefjohnson, mesa 7 should be in gutsy really soon now.
[06:28] <rusty> kylem, that makes sense
[06:29] <charliefjohnson> I saw Bryce's announcement.
[06:29] <kylem> groovy, ok.
[06:29] <kylem> oop, it already is in gutsy. cool.
[06:29] <Mithrandir> even better :-)
[06:30] <rusty> about the need for kernel arguments...
[06:30] <amitk_> yup
[06:30] <kylem> rusty, what hardware are you seeing it on?
[06:30] <rusty> where do we handle that?  I am guessing in a device config package
[06:31] <rusty> robr2,  the lpia systems in the lab
[06:31] <kylem> rusty, probably easiest for this instance is to DMI blacklist it.
[06:31] <Mithrandir> isn't that something which should be handled in a quirks table somewhere? (he says, waying his hand vaguely around)
[06:31] <kylem> Mithrandir, yes, precisely.
[06:31] <robr2> rusty: all poulsbo based systems
[06:32] <kylem> is anyone investigating what the actual problem is, is it a hw bug, or the linux code not being flexible enough?
[06:32] <charliefjohnson> This is where you have to pump the power button once to bypass the hang?  I thought Jacob had a fix?
[06:32] <robr2> kylem: yes, we're investigating it
[06:32] <kylem> robr2, ok, cool, thanks.
[06:32] <Mithrandir> ok, sounds good.
[06:32] <Mithrandir> move on?
[06:33] <robr2> kylem: we suspect it's a kernel bug with some newly introduced Local APIC timer code in the kernel
[06:33] <charliefjohnson> yes
[06:33] <Mithrandir> mobile-ui; Spec's approved; Bob, what's the status?
[06:33] <bspencer> Mithrandir: status on implementation?
[06:34] <Mithrandir> yes, given the spec is approved, there's not much more to be said about that.
[06:34] <Mithrandir> so, yes, implementation status.
[06:34] <bspencer> we need a few things
[06:34] <bspencer> control panel doesn't work
[06:34] <bspencer> there's been some changes recently and we need tko to help us figure out how to integrate it
[06:34] <bspencer> also I've got an almost working UI per the spec (the big icons UI)
[06:35] <bspencer> a question I had:
[06:35] <bspencer> some of this is just configuration changes
[06:35] <bspencer> but if I make them in the default hildon package, you will no longer see the Maemo UI
[06:35] <bspencer> it will always look like the new UI
[06:35] <bspencer> is that OK with all?
[06:35] <bspencer> It won't look like the old Hildon, per say.  
[06:36] <agoliveira> Ok
[06:36] <Mithrandir> I wouldn't mind, or we could just move configuration into its own package so we could choose by installing hildon-look-maemo or hildon-look-mid or hildon-look-whatever
[06:36] <bspencer> I just need to check in a new theme, a new package of plugins, get control panel working, change the config.
[06:36] <amitk_> robr2, charliefjohnson, kyle: sorry it took a while to read through the backlog. But jacob confirmed that my reworked patches were fine. They will be in the next kernel release
[06:36] <bspencer> I can do that with agoliveira in short order.
[06:36] <bspencer> Mithrandir: got it.  Good idea
[06:36] <bspencer> Mithrandir: the last thing is to get some help with the startup scripts
[06:36] <agoliveira> bspencer: Just say the word!
[06:36] <bspencer> so that we can boot a device and get it up to the UI 
[06:37] <bspencer> without having to manually run 3-4 steps.
[06:37] <Mithrandir> bspencer: Adilson was voluntold at the start of the meeting. :-)
[06:37] <Mithrandir> so he'll help you out with that.
[06:37] <bspencer> Mithrandir: OK.  So we'll get the changes pushed up as quick as we can.  I'll talk to him today
[06:37] <Mithrandir> great.
[06:37] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Yeah, me and my big mounth :)
[06:37] <bspencer> that will give us a UI that looks like the spec.
[06:37] <bspencer> (thanks for approval)
[06:38] <Mithrandir> do you have your code changes pushed to LP yet?
[06:38] <bspencer> Mithrandir: some, but I have more
[06:38] <bspencer> Mithrandir: and I haven't created the matching theme in LP yet
[06:38] <Mithrandir> ok
[06:38] <bspencer> Mithrandir: on a related note.  "Utilities"
[06:38] <bspencer> that is the control panel stuff
[06:38] <bspencer> I'm not sure of the status of control panel wrt Hildon changes
[06:38] <bspencer> tko: are you on?
[06:39] <agoliveira> bspencer: I just pushed it. Should be on repo soon.
[06:39] <tko> bspencer: mmm, yes
[06:39] <Mithrandir> the current bzr branch has the rewrite in it
[06:39] <bspencer> tko, agoliveira is the new control panel stuff (refactored) already in ?
[06:39] <agoliveira> Yes
[06:39] <tko> I'm not the right person to talk about control panel though.. you'll want lucas for that
[06:39] <bspencer> ok.  tko -- we couldn't get our control panel applets to work
[06:40] <Mithrandir> it's not uploaded yet, since I couldn't test it, but it's in bzr.
[06:40] <bspencer> tko: ok.  can you give me a name to ask after the meeting?
[06:40] <agoliveira> It was a bit of PITZ to get it there but it's on bzr
[06:40] <bspencer> I'm sure we're missing something small
[06:40] <tko> bspencer: the lucas in ChangeLog
[06:40] <agoliveira> s/PITZ/PITA :)
[06:40] <bspencer> tko: we updated the "Utilities" blueprint that describes the control panel.  We put in a document (rough) about how to create a control panel
[06:40] <bspencer> applet
[06:41] <bspencer> it is based off of 3.x help and what we could figure out.  But the applet doesn't work with the new code.
[06:41] <Mithrandir> ok, so move on.
[06:41] <Mithrandir> ?
[06:41] <agoliveira> Sure
[06:41] <bspencer> sure
[06:41] <charliefjohnson> yep
[06:42] <Mithrandir> window manager - this is now approved, Adilson has done work on the bzr branches and asked me to upload, which I haven't done yet.
[06:42] <Mithrandir> (since I was out shopping a birthday present for my wife when he asked)
[06:42] <Mithrandir> I'll do so before I sign off for today
[06:43] <Mithrandir> any questions?
[06:43] <bspencer> window manager -- and Xephyr
[06:43] <bspencer> question:
[06:44] <bspencer> will the gutsy Xephyr handle the composite transparency stuff and not clip the home plugins?
[06:44] <Mithrandir> yes, that's just waiting for an xorg-server upload.
[06:44] <Mithrandir> AIUI
[06:44] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: You're too quick. I give up :)
[06:45] <Mithrandir> ok, any more questions?
[06:45] <rusty> so i should be running Xephyr from my gutsy chroot and not directly off my feisty install
[06:45] <Mithrandir> yes
[06:45] <Mithrandir> at least eventually
[06:45] <Mithrandir> or rather, eventually you should just run gutsy.
[06:46] <Mithrandir> I'll get bryce to mail the list when he uploads so people know what they have to deal with
[06:46] <Mithrandir> next; graphics - pending approval; I've asked Bryce (our X person) to take a look at it, it's a bit thin, but if he's happy with it, I'm not going to protest.
[06:47] <Mithrandir> charliefjohnson: how's the implementation coming along there?
[06:47] <charliefjohnson> I have an functioning Apha 2D driver right now.
[06:47] <charliefjohnson> We got internal approval to release external from Intel - So I can provide at any time.
[06:48] <charliefjohnson> 3D is still in progress.
[06:48] <Mithrandir> great; can you talk directly with Bryce and get that moving?
[06:48] <charliefjohnson> Yes - I emailed him yesterday a couple of times.  No reponse yet.
[06:49] <Mithrandir> I'll prod him with my electric cattle prod and see if I can get him to respond.
[06:49] <charliefjohnson> He's local - I could just call him.  
[06:49] <Mithrandir> well, prodded.  Gently so far. :-)
[06:50] <charliefjohnson> Do you need anything more in the spec ???  
[06:50] <Mithrandir> it's not I who will implement it, but I know that if I was going to make changes to our X packages based on the spec, it would not have been enough.
[06:51] <charliefjohnson> I've asked Bryce to review.
[06:51] <Mithrandir> yup
[06:51] <Mithrandir> so let's leave it on his plate.
[06:51] <Mithrandir> move on?
[06:51] <charliefjohnson> yes
[06:52] <Mithrandir> Browser is in review; I haven't had the time to review it properly today.  Bob, how is it coming along?
[06:52] <bspencer> god
[06:52] <Mithrandir> bspencer: iirc, it was your spec?
[06:52] <bspencer> good
[06:52] <bspencer> yes
[06:52] <bspencer> visited briefly with you and asac yesterday
[06:52] <bspencer> we have a pulled a branch of recent Mozilla
[06:52] <Mithrandir> can you please set ubuntu-mobile as approver and yourself as assignee/drafter?
[06:52] <bspencer> Mithrandir: yes
[06:52] <Mithrandir> I can't because ubuntu-mobile doesn't have a relation to the spec.
[06:52] <bspencer> have made changes for the font.  I'll work with asac on getting the git-repo up and ready to go.
[06:52] <asac> bspencer: when can we talk a bit more in detail about it?
[06:53] <bspencer> asac: you say when
[06:53] <bspencer> after the meeting
[06:53] <bspencer> or tonight at 2am.  You choose.
[06:53] <asac> bspencer: actually i have to leave in a minute :)
[06:53] <asac> do you work at weekend?
[06:53] <bspencer> this weekend, yes
[06:53] <asac> otherwise just ping me on monday
[06:54] <bspencer> It would be great to work on it sooner, if you want to chat Saturday sometime
[06:54] <asac> yes ... if you are in this channel i will try to get a grib on you :)
[06:54] <bspencer> asac: give me a time sometime before my Sunday and we'll chat.
[06:54] <bspencer> k
[06:55] <asac> thats hard to say ... i have to figure out with my wife ... which is not here atm
[06:55] <bspencer> details :)
[06:55] <asac> i will try to tell you tonight (in a few hours)
[06:55] <bspencer> sure
[06:55] <asac> maybe we can chat then
[06:55] <asac> even
[06:55] <bspencer> Mithrandir: that's all I have for browser.
[06:55] <Mithrandir> worst case, just mail each other with times you can meet up, or something.
[06:55] <asac> we will figure out
[06:55] <asac> ok i am out ... in a hurry
[06:55] <asac> cya
[06:56] <Mithrandir> ok, thanks.  Seems to be progressing; any idea when we can have something looking ok-ish and not just a browser crammed into too little space?
[06:56] <bspencer> I don't have asac's email.  Mithrandir can you send?
[06:56] <asac> asac@jwsdot.com
[06:56] <bspencer> asac: thx
[06:56] <asac> but i will come back in a few hours
[06:57] <kylem> charliefjohnson, is there an agpgart kernel module for poulsbo as well?
[06:57] <Mithrandir> bspencer: my question above is probably something you can answer?
[06:57] <charliefjohnson> No - agpgart functionality is moving to the chipset specific drm module.  Apparently this isn't unique to Poulsbo.
[06:57] <kylem> charliefjohnson, alright, thanks.
[06:58] <bspencer> Mithrandir: sorry.  missed the Q
[06:58] <bspencer> let's see on timing..
[06:58] <bspencer> re-themed and packaged:  3-4 days
[06:58] <bspencer> probably about 1month to see a new chrome
[06:58] <bspencer> maybe less if asac jumps in strong
[06:58] <Mithrandir> ok, thanks.
[06:59] <Mithrandir> move on, or does anybody have any other questions?
[06:59] <rusty> nope
[06:59] <kylem> ok, i've fribbled the Graphics spec implementation section a bit... any objections?
[06:59] <Mithrandir> Utilities; Bob, this is your spec too.
[06:59] <kylem> just to make the packages needing modification a little clearer.
[06:59] <bspencer> yes
[06:59] <bspencer> we touched on briefly before
[06:59] <charliefjohnson> kylem: I'll take a look.
[06:59] <bspencer> this is control panel + configuration utilities.
[06:59] <Mithrandir> I haven't had the time to review that today, sorry, I'll do so monday
[07:00] <bspencer> Mithrandir: ok.
[07:00] <bspencer> I think the big question is how to assign the configuration utilities.  They are not all known
[07:00] <bspencer> they kind of trickle in as things progress
[07:00] <bspencer> I put a short list in there (5-6) that I know we'll need
[07:00] <Mithrandir> it says blocked; is that with the old control panel code or the new one?
[07:00] <bspencer> just blocked that we don't have a working one in gutsy w/new Hildon changes.  (discusssed above)
[07:01] <bspencer> agoliveira: going to save the day and make it work soon.
[07:01] <Mithrandir> yup. :-)
[07:01] <Mithrandir> so it should be unblocked either today or Monday.
[07:01] <bspencer> k
[07:01] <bspencer> ;
[07:01] <agoliveira> As soon as it uploads we can test it.
[07:02] <agoliveira> It worked for me installed by had.
[07:02] <agoliveira> hand
[07:02] <Mithrandir> what to do about the control panel applets trickling in?  I think just writing about those you know about already, then listing "We might need more control panel applets" in the outstanding issues section might make sense.
[07:02] <Mithrandir> and then create separate specs for those, if they're sizable.
[07:02] <rusty> sounds like a plan
[07:03] <bspencer> Mithrandir: ok.  But I'm not sure I know which one's we are writing yet.  I'll take a stab.
[07:03] <Mithrandir> make a qualified guess based on the SOW?
[07:03] <bspencer> yep
[07:03] <bspencer> Canonical owns all
[07:03] <bspencer> ;)
[07:03] <Mithrandir> *cough* :-)
[07:03] <rusty> but it list some specific items, right?
[07:03] <Mithrandir> iirc, it does, yes.
[07:04] <bspencer> I'll review and update the spec today
[07:04] <Mithrandir> thanks; I'll approve it on Monday, assuming it's good then
[07:05] <Mithrandir> is it useful for people that I send reviews publically to the list, or would you rather have me send them privately?  I was doing it so everybody can learn and you can see what is important to have in place in a spec and what the style should be.
[07:05] <agoliveira> It's being useful to me at least.
[07:05] <bspencer> I like public
[07:05] <ian_brasil> me too
[07:05] <rusty> same here
[07:05] <bspencer> esp if you say "great job Bob, perfect spec"
[07:05] <charliefjohnson> Public is OK - I just had to remember to look in the folder I was shuffling all ubuntu-mobile message into.
[07:06] <Mithrandir> as long as people aren't unhappy about me saying "those are problematic areas in this spec" and taking it personally, since it really isn't.
[07:06] <Mithrandir> charliefjohnson: I can Cc the drafter, if that'd be better?
[07:06] <bspencer> Mithrandir: good idea.
[07:06] <bspencer> Mithrandir: give it to us striaght.  We don't take offense
[07:06] <charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: That would be good to.
[07:07] <Mithrandir> ok, good then. :-)
[07:07] <Mithrandir> Move on, USB client.
[07:07] <bspencer> that is one of the crappiest, half-baked specs I've ever seen
[07:07] <Mithrandir> there was some discussion on the list about it, since apparently it was less clear than it seemed at first, so dumped back to drafting.
[07:07] <Mithrandir> however, the implementation seems to have started already?
[07:07] <charliefjohnson> My engineering in China made a couple of updates.  (Thanks Bob !!) Can you take another look?
[07:08] <bspencer> charliefjohnson: ;)
[07:08] <Mithrandir> it would probably be good to expand what CDC-EEM/RNDIS stands for.
[07:09] <Mithrandir> it sound more like a missile control system or a crypto system than anything else. :-)
[07:09] <charliefjohnson> I don't even know what it means! :^)
[07:09] <charliefjohnson> I has a good picture though!
[07:09] <bspencer> rusty had visited with the author about some changes
[07:10] <charliefjohnson> I'll ask them to update some more.
[07:10] <rusty> it means... the standard way of connecting a communication device over usb, or the crappy way to do it an have windows work
[07:11] <rusty> I think we are missing the high level debate on exactly what we expect to see when you plug in one of these devices to your pc
[07:11] <Mithrandir> it'd probably make sense for the implementors of the kernel bits to submit them to the kernel team too, so they can be reviewed and integrated early.
[07:11] <Mithrandir> rusty: yes, your response to my critique was good.
[07:12] <charliefjohnson> Yes - I'll working with them to make that happen.  
[07:12] <Mithrandir> good
[07:12] <charliefjohnson> I attempting to get them more directly involved instead of me being the middle man.
[07:12] <Mithrandir> anyway, I think we've covered this well enough and I'd like us to finish soonish, so move on.
[07:12] <Mithrandir> media player
[07:12] <bspencer> mobile-mediaplayer:  following your advice to finish some all the way, and not partly do some, I didn't start due to time.
[07:13] <Mithrandir> yup, that's fine.
[07:13] <robr2> charliefjohnson: please make sure they work w/ jacob and me to get it integrated in our kernel too
[07:13] <Mithrandir> could you have it written up fairly early next week?
[07:13] <bspencer> our team is working on a media player.  Ken Wimer's graphics show some of what it looks like
[07:13] <bspencer> Mithrandir: yes.  I'll finish that spec by next mtg
[07:13] <Mithrandir> ok, nice.
[07:14] <Mithrandir> a feature I've seen people ask for is gesture support, what are your plans regarding that?
[07:14] <bspencer> we like the idea
[07:14] <bspencer> getting the basic stuff first, then investigate
[07:14] <bspencer> like being able to render a video at all.  or show pictures
[07:14] <Mithrandir> of course, if it doesn't play music, having support for gestures is hardly helpful.
[07:14] <agoliveira> Sorry but gesture support for the media player only or in general?
[07:14] <Mithrandir> I've looked around for free software which does it, but most of it seems old.
[07:15] <bspencer> Mithrandir: yes.  we're almost over the first hurdles.   
[07:15] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: in general would be sweet, but I don't think we'll have it for the first generation.
[07:15] <bspencer> gestures always sound cool.  in practice we'll see.
[07:15] <agoliveira> Agreed. Just clarifying
[07:15] <Mithrandir> ok, move on.
[07:15] <agoliveira> bspencer: In pratice I never liked
[07:16] <Mithrandir> build infrastructure.  No update here, I need to clear up some internal problems we're having so this can be unblocked.
[07:16] <Mithrandir> I'm hoping we'll have that ready by next meeting.
[07:16] <Mithrandir> next; hardware accelerated video decode; Charlie?
[07:17] <charliefjohnson> Spec is Approved.  We decoding MPEG2.
[07:17] <charliefjohnson> Moving on to VC1 & h264
[07:17] <Mithrandir> that's just decode, no encoding of h264?
[07:18] <rusty> how hard would it be to create a gstreamer codec for each of these formats?
[07:18] <agoliveira> rusty: that would be sweet.
[07:18] <charliefjohnson> We'll do encode also.  I'm doing the h264 work.  (Actual coding. what a novel idea!)
[07:19] <Mithrandir> it sounds like it's coming along well?
[07:19] <agoliveira> brb 2 min!
[07:19] <charliefjohnson> We're looking into gstreamer option right now.  I'll have to ask Waldo for an update.
[07:19] <bspencer> I'll enjoy bugging waldo for a deliverable
[07:19] <rusty> when do you expect to get a first drop into bzr?
[07:20] <charliefjohnson> We're very dependent on the HW IP vendor.  I need to work that with Waldo.
[07:21] <Mithrandir> ok; so this is on track, gstreamer support is being investigated?
[07:21] <charliefjohnson> I'll have Waldo join in on these meeting in the future.
[07:22] <charliefjohnson> yes - no updates yet.  Right now it is Helix 
[07:22] <Mithrandir> ok
[07:22] <Mithrandir> move on; mobile gnome components, Bob?
[07:22] <bspencer> gnome-components: Should be ready for review.  Needs an implementer to check that the latest/right versions of each component are planned to be included.
[07:22] <Mithrandir> can you make ubuntu-mobile the approver here too?
[07:23] <bspencer> yes, doing that now...
[07:23] <Mithrandir> thanks
[07:23] <Mithrandir> I can do the checking of what parts need to go in, so put me as the assignee?
[07:23] <Mithrandir> unless somebody else wants it
[07:23] <bspencer> Mithrandir: you got it
[07:24] <bspencer> Mithrandir: one issue is that some are going to be released in Sept with next gnome release
[07:24] <bspencer> so we are tight grabbing that latest and putting it in gutsy
[07:24] <Mithrandir> nah, GNOME has a standing upstream version freeze exception
[07:24] <Mithrandir> I'll just make sure to get that extended to GMAE components too
[07:24] <bspencer> ok. 
[07:25] <Mithrandir> so we're good on that front.
[07:25] <Mithrandir> it needs review too, but I'll do that on Monday.
[07:25] <Mithrandir> iirc, I did today, but couldn't approve it, so I'll get to do it again.
[07:25] <bspencer> my bad on the "Approver"
[07:25] <Mithrandir> np
[07:26] <Mithrandir> mobile-overview is Matt's spec, it's informational.  At this point, it's mostly about cleaning up the Mobile and Embedded front page, something he voluntold Adilson and I to do yesterday.
[07:27] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: you're listed as the assignee on mobile VCS; is there anything to do there but say "we use bazaar"?
[07:27] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: That's my feeling too. I spent some time yesterday just staring at it. Couldn't find anything to do but detail how bzr works, which is kinda silly.
[07:28] <Mithrandir> I say mark it as obsolete then?
[07:28] <agoliveira> Your call.
[07:28] <agoliveira> I just couldn't find a better use for it.
[07:30] <Mithrandir> there
[07:30] <Mithrandir> mobile-development-environment
[07:30] <rusty> We need an ubuntu-mobile-dev package that pulls in everything we need to enable building UME applications
[07:30] <Mithrandir> yup, that's the goal + some docs.
[07:30] <Mithrandir> it's drafting, I suspect it could be approved, I need to look at that next week.
[07:31] <Mithrandir> I got it in my lap today so I'm not sure what the exact status is.
[07:31] <Mithrandir> the implementation should be straightforward; just another metapackage
[07:31] <charliefjohnson> Should it cover more than Application development ??  What about Drivers ??  
[07:31] <bspencer> rusty: Mithrandir what does that include on top of hildon-dev ?
[07:32] <rusty> bspencer, i don't know
[07:32] <Mithrandir> bspencer: any GMAE development packages, maybe?
[07:32] <agoliveira> bspencer: Perhaps Xephyr also?
[07:32] <bspencer> yes, all good ideas
[07:33] <rusty> charliefjohnson, i wouldn't image kernel development for UME to be any different then normal Ubuntu kernel development
[07:33] <Mithrandir> rusty: agreed.
[07:33] <charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Even if it is just documentation that Gutsy desktop is the driver development environment.  We will have ODM and third party vendors which will not make it into Gutsy.
[07:34] <bspencer> Mithrandir: although each app is different and may not need all hte GMAE dev pgks.  But definately Xephyr, Hildon-dev, automake/buildessential, etc.
[07:34] <agoliveira> bspencer: I'll see that.
[07:34] <Mithrandir> bspencer: sure, not all apps use all the functionality, but it's an easy way to say "if you install this on a clean system, your binary should work without any extra packages on a mobile system"
[07:35] <bspencer> Mithrandir: but not necessarily the -dev pgs? 
[07:35] <bspencer> you are talking of GMAE generally?  or?
[07:35] <Mithrandir> no, but the development packages aren't needed for running the application.
[07:36] <Mithrandir> so ubuntu-mobile gives you an ubuntu mobile "desktop".  ubuntu-mobile-dev gives you same, plus all the relevant development packages.
[07:36] <bspencer> consistent.  
[07:38] <Mithrandir> ok, move on?
[07:38] <agoliveira> Ok.
[07:38] <bspencer> yep
[07:38] <charliefjohnson> Any comments on my last comment?
[07:38] <Mithrandir> charliefjohnson: ah, yes, sure, we can put in some docs which says how to do driver development.
[07:38] <Mithrandir> that should address your concern?
[07:39] <charliefjohnson> OK. Lets move on.
[07:39] <Mithrandir> mobile-maemo-packaging-cleanup is also assigned to me; it should be approved even if we find something that we want to add to it later.  The actual implementation is going well
[07:39] <Mithrandir> it's a fairly minor spec too
[07:40] <Mithrandir> power-management-in-ubuntu; Amit?
[07:40] <agoliveira> This is something I really look forward to find some time to do it.
[07:40] <amitk_> yes?
[07:40] <rusty> AtomicTodd, you listening?
[07:40] <Mithrandir> amitk_: what's the status on that, what's missing for it to be approved?
[07:41] <amitk_> mithrandir: the current document is too generic. We don't yet know the Intel-specific optimisations
[07:41] <Mithrandir> which is why mobile-power-thermal-optimzations was added?
[07:41] <charliefjohnson> There may be overlap betwen this and the next spec though you can't tell since the next spec is still a skeleton.
[07:42] <amitk_> charliefjohnson mentioned that his team would be preparing specs for those..
[07:42] <amitk_> right
[07:42] <rusty> amitk_, you got the pointer to the power policy management wiki, right?
[07:42] <amitk_> rusty: no
[07:42] <Mithrandir> charliefjohnson: ok, so those are really both your specs to draft, or?
[07:42] <rusty> it's on the ubuntu wiki... let me see if i can scare up that URL
[07:43] <amitk_> mithrandir: we need a generic ubuntu spec and one specific to MIDs
[07:43] <Mithrandir> ok
[07:43] <rusty> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/PowerPolicyManagement
[07:43] <charliefjohnson> I didn't really know what the first one was.  
[07:43] <rusty> that's what AtomicTodd is working on
[07:43] <amitk_> charliefjohnson: an overlap is fine as long as we get all the info on there. We can refactor later.
[07:44] <Mithrandir> shiny diagrams!
[07:44] <Mithrandir> it looks fairly sane from skimming it
[07:44] <Mithrandir> but shouldn't it be a spec and not just a document?
[07:45] <charliefjohnson> It sure should be.
[07:46] <charliefjohnson> Why not replace the wiki page for  power-management-in-ubuntu with this one.
[07:46] <rusty> this could be fodder for adding to the blueprint
[07:47] <Mithrandir> rusty: either that, or just turn it into a spec
[07:47] <rusty> i wasn't sure how this would work, so i just pushed todd to add it to the wiki
[07:47] <rusty> either way, however amitk_ wants to run things
[07:47] <amitk_> charliefjohnson: not a good idea. This stuff is going to take bl**dy ages to get accepted by linux-pm and lkml
[07:48] <rusty> for lkml, it's easy since this isn't requiring any kernel changes
[07:48] <rusty> it's just a user space stack on existing interfaces
[07:49] <amitk_> rusty: I agree this could be the fodder yes. I propose merging this and the other spec from charliefjohnson to ONE spec for Intel MID
[07:49] <charliefjohnson> PPM is an SOW item - so we need to figure out what the right thing is for UME.
[07:49] <rusty> charliefjohnson, what's the other spec?
[07:50] <amitk_> rusty: I will study this in more detail and get back to you next week
[07:50] <rusty> ok
[07:50] <rusty> do you have todds email?
[07:50] <rusty> i'm not actually working on the code
[07:51] <rusty> just the guys who get's kicked in the ass by my boss when it doesn't happen :-<
[07:51] <amitk_> rusty: no. Why don't you send me a email with a list of all the people in Intel side contributing to MID kernel-space and low-level userspace and things like PM policy
[07:51] <rusty> ok
[07:52] <charliefjohnson> What was the conclusion on Todd's PPM stuff ?  
[07:52] <charliefjohnson> From a spec point of view.
[07:52] <rusty> conclusion?
[07:52] <rusty> that we will work closely with amit to craft a working spec
[07:52] <rusty> er.. blueprint
[07:52] <amitk_> right
[07:52] <Mithrandir> ok, can you have a good spec by next week?
[07:53] <charliefjohnson> Is it going to be a separate spec, linked from the power-management-in-ubuntu spec ???
[07:53] <amitk_> charliefjohnson: probably
[07:53] <rusty> i'm thinking next week is realistic, amitk_, what do you think?
[07:54] <amitk_> rusty: yes. It should be in a fairly good shape, if not complete
[07:54] <Mithrandir> ok, good.
[07:55] <Mithrandir> then we're halfway through the agenda.  Second point on it is plans for next week.
[07:55] <bspencer> Mithrandir: one last Q on specs
[07:55] <bspencer> Mithrandir: there was a spec on "ui style guide"  I wasn't sure if this was the right place for it.  It is now gone?  I added a long detailed document in there from Intel about "UI style"
[07:56] <Mithrandir> bspencer: let me see if I can find it again
[07:56] <bspencer> Mithrandir: just curious.  We can do it after the mtg if you'd prefer, given the time
[07:57] <Mithrandir> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-ui-style-guide
[07:57] <bspencer> yes
[07:57] <Mithrandir> it falls off the list when it's implemented
[07:57] <bspencer> it is informational
[07:57] <Mithrandir> yes
[07:57] <bspencer> oh
[07:57] <bspencer> got it.
[07:57] <bspencer> never to be read again
[07:57] <Mithrandir> hence it's implemented when it's written
[07:57] <Mithrandir> *cough*
[07:57] <bspencer> write-only specs.
[07:57] <bspencer> np
[07:58] <Mithrandir> it should probably be referenced from the front page of the mobile and embedded page.
[07:58] <Mithrandir> I think we've covered where we think specs will be in a week fairly well, does anybody have other plans for the next week?
[07:59] <bspencer> Bob assignments:  get tickets to sprint, finish media player spec, get browser started with asac, get new MID UI in gutsy
[07:59] <rusty> I should have project-builder in a state where it could be added to gutsy
[07:59] <agoliveira> rusty: That would be great
[08:00] <charliefjohnson> There is a possibility of a new spec around Location Based Services.  (GPS aware Apps.)  The team is in Israel so haven't closed yet.
[08:00] <bspencer> rusty: and renamed to Mobile Image Creator   ...er sumpin'   (bob hopes)
[08:00] <rusty> i like a little mystery
[08:00] <Mithrandir> rusty: yeah, we might want to rename it.
[08:00] <Mithrandir> if you want mystery, use pwgen to name it.
[08:01] <bspencer> Mithrandir: :)
[08:01] <rusty> i already did that and got "project-builder"
[08:01] <Mithrandir> haha
[08:01] <Mithrandir> ian_brasil: do you have an update on docs?
[08:01] <rusty> my project names are like my web sites... not not flashy
[08:01] <charliefjohnson> Once it is in, then we can do actual Ubuntu builds as just another SKU besides Desktop and Server??  
[08:01] <Mithrandir> charliefjohnson: EXPN SKU?
[08:02] <rusty> by adding project-builder then all you have is the ability to do 'apt-get install project-builder'
[08:02] <rusty> if your running gutsy
[08:02] <Mithrandir> that's the goal, yes.
[08:03] <Mithrandir> (to both of you)
[08:04] <rusty> should we go over the sprint?
[08:04] <Mithrandir> sure
[08:04] <charliefjohnson> Before we do the sprint - Can we target Tribe-3 as the first to include a UME build ?
[08:05] <Mithrandir> charliefjohnson: that sounds reasonable.
[08:05] <Mithrandir> July 19th
[08:05] <Mithrandir> we'll have some interesting logistics there since a lot of us will be at guadec, but I'm hoping it'll work out anyway
[08:05] <charliefjohnson> I have internal test teams and Intel managers asking me every couple of days.
[08:06] <Mithrandir> speaking of that, any progress on the Q1s?
[08:06] <rusty> they are scheduled to be arriving now
[08:06] <Mithrandir> you've moved from "next week" to "later this week", I've noticed.
[08:06] <charliefjohnson> HW is a pain in the butt.  
[08:06] <rusty> but so far we have only recieved two of them (unless Mauri got some today)
[08:07] <Mithrandir> ok
[08:08] <agoliveira> I got an email from Maury and (he/she?) told me that they should be sent by the end of this week which mean today ;)
[08:08] <rusty> how many of UME guys will be in London starting next week... would it be better for me to hand carry device for the 9th if they show up next week, or just ship the device for it to be waiting at the developers house when they get back from the sprint?
[08:08] <Mithrandir> all of us.
[08:08] <bspencer> agoliveira: Mauri is a girl
[08:08] <agoliveira> bspencer: Nice
[08:09] <Mithrandir> so for the sprint, I'm basically thinking we want to highlight any hot spots which require attention and we want to take a good look at the whole platform to see if we spot any uncovered spots.
[08:09] <agoliveira> rusty: As I told her, that won't work for me due the taxes I would have to pay (60%!)
[08:09] <rusty> agoliveira, if i hand carry to London?
[08:09] <agoliveira> spot... I mean, agree
[08:09] <agoliveira> rusty: Exactly
[08:10] <rusty> ok, then shipping it is
[08:10] <agoliveira> rusty: It's already arranged.
[08:10] <rusty> how valuable would it be to carry over some menlow hardware (not for delivery, but for testing)?
[08:11] <Mithrandir> rusty: would be useful, I think.
[08:11] <agoliveira> rusty: I guess would be nice.
[08:11] <rusty> it would be more interesting to hardware guys
[08:11] <agoliveira> Yep.
[08:11] <rusty> charliefjohnson, would the graphics stuff be far enough along on the 9th to bring up a stack on menlow hardware?
[08:12] <bspencer> my schedule has me arriving mid-week.  I'll leave here Tues, I'll arrive tired Wed afternoon.  (July 11th)
[08:12] <charliefjohnson> We have 2D up now.
[08:12] <charliefjohnson> 3D - Maybe.  There is a replan going on to not need a closed source kernel module.
[08:13] <rusty> charliefjohnson, not worried about 3d yet... for 2d, would it be in bzr in that time frame?
[08:13] <rusty> in other words, out in the wild
[08:13] <charliefjohnson> I plan on working with Bryce next week to get it in.
[08:14] <robr2> charliefjohnson: there's still an issue with the kernel driver -- it still needs to be built outside the kernel tree (i.e. not a patch) but it's functioning from what i hear
[08:14] <rusty> ok, i'll see if I can get Rob or Jacob to make the trip and carry a menlow development platform
[08:14] <robr2> rusty: i told jacob to start on his visa yesterday for the UK
[08:15] <rusty> visa?
[08:15] <robr2> rusty: yes, he needs a visa because he's not a US Citizen
[08:15] <rusty> oh, yea, forgot
[08:15] <agoliveira> rob2: Weird... not even me need a visa...
[08:15] <rusty> we don't need anything right?
[08:15] <agoliveira> s/me/I
[08:15] <rusty> i didn't something for Australia
[08:16] <robr2> rusty: no, just your passport
[08:16] <rusty> cool
[08:16] <Mithrandir> ok, anything more for the sprint?
[08:16] <robr2> agoliveira: he's a chinese citizen, i think that's why he needs a visa
[08:16] <agoliveira> robr2: Oh, indeed.
[08:16] <rusty> i think we are good, and i need to run to my hotel to get a couple of demo devices for the next talk
[08:17] <agoliveira> Im' ok too.
[08:17] <charliefjohnson> I won't be at the sprint since I have relative visiting that week.  
[08:17] <Mithrandir> ok; I suspect we'll meet later then. :-)
[08:17] <robr2> i'm not sure i can make it either...but jacob will be there
[08:18] <charliefjohnson> We need to make sure the sprint announcements always go to the core Intel team (rusty, Rob, Bob and Charlie)
[08:19] <Mithrandir> yup, agreed
[08:19] <rusty> ok, gota go
[08:19] <Mithrandir> if I failed to do that now, mea culpa and I'll do better in the future.
[08:19] <Mithrandir> adjourned, then
[08:20] <bspencer> whew!
[08:20] <agoliveira> Ok, bye rusty.
[08:20] <bspencer> on 2:20
[08:20] <bspencer> only 2:20 
[08:20] <agoliveira> That reminded me my times at No machine ;)
[08:21] <Mithrandir> I think we want to discuss the format of the meeting at the sprint, so we can get it down to < 1 hour
[08:21] <bspencer> Mithrandir: we had a lot of specs
[08:22] <bspencer> there are fewer now
[08:22] <agoliveira> But this one was a bit off because of the specs
[08:22] <Mithrandir> they've all run over
[08:22] <bspencer> perhaps we should report status ahead of time in someplace.  then we don't have to wait so long for responses and stuff.
[08:22] <Mithrandir> anyway; we'll discuss it later
[08:22] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Sure
[08:22] <Mithrandir> bspencer: yes, that's what we do for the distro team
[08:39] <kylem> /win 99
[08:40] <agoliveira> kylen:?
[08:51] <jacob-laptop> does anyone know the address in UK for ubuntu sprint? i need that info to apply for a visa.
[09:01] <robr2> Mithrandir agoliveira  amitk_  or kylem can you send the UK address info for the sprint in the UK to jacob-laptop ?
[09:04] <agoliveira>  robr2: By email?
[09:05] <charliefjohnson> Please send to me also. 
[09:05] <agoliveira> Just paste me the emails and I'll collect the info (it's on a internal wiki) and send right away.
[09:06] <agoliveira> OR I can post on the mobile ML.
[09:09] <robr2> agoliveira: just send it to the mobile ML
[09:09] <agoliveira> Ok
[09:10] <robr2> thanks
[09:12] <agoliveira> Done
[09:33] <rusty> bobux, you listening?
[09:42] <bspencer> rusty: hellow
[09:42] <bspencer> helloworld
[09:42] <rusty> halley seems to be in over his head
[09:43] <bspencer> I could have tol dyou that last week when he arrived
[09:43] <rusty> bspencer, btw, i didn't mean to say that his dbus server was started wrong, but I think he is running his media service on a terminal that doesn't have access to the display
[09:44] <bspencer> rusty: I wondered that
[09:44] <rusty> this service needs to open a window... so, that's not going to work
[09:44] <bspencer> is it that simple?
[09:44] <rusty> yea
[09:44] <rusty> for the error about the DISPLAY
[09:44] <bspencer> I'm still at home but I'll go by after lunch
[09:45] <rusty> i'm sure he has loads of other issues
[09:45] <bspencer> suggestions?
[09:46] <bspencer> on the one hand he is probably banging his head against a wall and can't see the window.
[09:46] <bspencer> but if I redirect him then it might take him awhile to ramp on a new task
[09:49] <rusty> bspencer, i think he going to just have to take some time and learn about low level X... and Keith P. and friends would be a good resource (but tell Keith i said that)
[09:50] <bspencer> right.  Maybe Eric?  (is that his name) could help
[09:53] <rusty> eric, that's his name
[09:55] <charliefjohnson> Eric Anholt - He a driver guy.  Not an X application guy.
[10:15] <asac> bspencer: there?
[10:18] <bspencer> asac: hello
[10:18] <asac> oh great :)
[10:18] <bspencer> are you in Germany?
[10:18] <asac> for a minut i thought you are having lunch
[10:18] <asac> right
[10:18] <bspencer> so 22:18
[10:18] <asac> hamburg ;)
[10:18] <asac> yes
[10:18] <asac> @now berlin
[10:19] <asac> hmmm no bot :)
[10:19] <asac> anyway
[10:19] <bspencer> actually I have to leave for 15mins...
[10:19] <bspencer> any chance you can hang for 15?
[10:19] <asac> now .. ok
[10:19] <bspencer> right
[10:19] <asac> hope so
[10:19] <asac> :)
[10:19] <bspencer> got to swap cars, wife is waiting outside
[10:19] <bspencer> be back quck
[10:19] <asac> sure
[10:19] <asac> gogo
[10:31] <bspencer> asac: back
[10:32] <asac> bspencer: cool
[10:32] <asac> ok lets start ... what is your idea ... and more important what is the timeline ?
[10:32] <bspencer> we can host the project
[10:32] <bspencer> public in about a week's time
[10:32] <bspencer> although we could get access for you earlier perhaps
[10:32] <bspencer> git repo
[10:33] <bspencer> starting with the base we talked about yesterday
[10:33] <asac> ok ... i think i can start without access
[10:33] <bspencer> asac: I think I have the general steps in mind
[10:33] <bspencer> once we have the base project setup
[10:33] <bspencer> we can split up the tasks
[10:33] <asac> ok ... what are the steps?
[10:34] <asac> first just theming and stripping down UI ?
[10:34] <bspencer> ys
[10:34] <bspencer> yes
[10:34] <bspencer> then deciding on the end goal 
[10:34] <bspencer> looking at features to show
[10:35] <bspencer> 3) begin porting the menu to the top Hildon menu
[10:35] <bspencer> 4) re-chrome 
[10:35] <bspencer> #4 is probably multiple stages, which we could define
[10:35] <bspencer> e.g. toolbar is easy, but menus might be a little more.   
[10:35] <asac> what do you mean by rechrome?
[10:35] <bspencer> change things to be a little more finger-navigable mainly
[10:36] <asac> ah ok
[10:36] <bspencer> and consider the smaller screen
[10:36] <bspencer> a few ideas from the wireframes:
[10:36] <bspencer>  - search box maybe slides out when touched, instead of always taking up space
[10:36] <bspencer>  - remove buttons on toolbar -- only basics
[10:36] <bspencer>  - scroll thumb behaves a little differently, or is semi-transparent
[10:37] <bspencer>  (and a little easier to touch)
[10:37] <bspencer> #5) Use the Hildon Window
[10:37] <asac> hmmm don't we need that for the menu already?
[10:38] <asac> e.g. hildon_window_set_menu ?
[10:38] <bspencer> I think the menus can be done separately
[10:38] <asac> a right
[10:38] <asac> hildon_program_set_menu
[10:38] <asac> iirc
[10:38] <bspencer> I'm kind of a newbie at Hildon myself.
[10:38] <bspencer> right, I could use a refresher when I get in there
[10:38] <asac> yeah ... i tried to port gnome-terminal to hildon today for a few minutes
[10:38] <asac> but ran into issues with the menu
[10:39] <asac> e.g. the menu is just one gtk menu ... and not a menu_bar
[10:39] <bspencer> it would be nice if we had GTK changes that did the switch automatically
[10:39] <asac> e.g. you basically can set only *one* menu
[10:39] <bspencer> yes, with submenus
[10:39] <bspencer> but everything goes into a drop-down
[10:39] <bspencer> and then File, etc. are on that one menu
[10:39] <bspencer> (or we reduce the features)
[10:40] <bspencer> Once we have that stuff done I think the browser should be usable at a minimum on the small device
[10:40] <asac> ok ... so move everything one layer down
[10:40] <bspencer> menus:  yes, that is the quick approach.
[10:40] <bspencer> but maybe not the most usable
[10:40] <asac> right
[10:41] <bspencer> I'm mixed between making it behave /very/ much like Firefox people know, and making it simple and featureless.
[10:41] <bspencer> there is a balance somewhere in there.
[10:41] <asac> i think we should define how the menu will look like as we will probably not be able to use the *xul* menus anyway
[10:41] <asac> so we are free to do what we want somehow
[10:41] <bspencer> how do the xul menus get translated into Gtk menus now?
[10:42] <asac> really on a low level
[10:42] <bspencer> it would be cool if we could use xul menus
[10:42] <asac> like drawing on device context
[10:42] <bspencer> hmm, that's pretty low
[10:42] <bspencer> :)
[10:42] <bspencer> I wonder if there is a way to put something inbweteen that took the xul definitions and made them Hildon-ized
[10:42] <asac> i think its safe that we will not be able to use xul menus in first version
[10:43] <bspencer> ok
[10:43] <bspencer> that's fine
[10:43] <asac> my question is: how are hildon menus realized on a technical level
[10:43] <asac> do they use XEmbed or something?
[10:43] <bspencer> I'm unsure.
[10:44] <asac> ok ... if its xembed we might actually be able to use xul menus (or any other element) at some point
[10:44] <bspencer> are you at the sprint in July?
[10:44] <asac> yes
[10:44] <asac> next weekend :)
[10:44] <asac> it starts
[10:45] <bspencer> yes.  I need to buy some tickets
[10:45] <bspencer> is launchpad a good place to track all this for now?
[10:45] <bspencer> on the mobile blueprint page?
[10:45] <asac> i think so
[10:46] <asac> usually specs are documented in wiki
[10:46] <bspencer> one question
[10:46] <asac> and linked from blueprints page
[10:46] <bspencer> alright.  I put some stuff up there already
[10:46] <bspencer> but it isn't as concrete as "this is the menu"
[10:46] <bspencer> and also sharing ideas discovered for how to change something , etc.
[10:47] <bspencer> but let's use mobile-browser blueprint spec.
[10:47] <bspencer> one question:  the tabbed browsing -- should the tabs be at the top of the screen or the bottom, in your opinion?
[10:47] <bspencer> Hildon style puts their tookbars at the bottom
[10:47] <asac> hmm
[10:47] <bspencer> I'm thinking ideally the location is a configuration setting the user can choose.
[10:48] <asac> are there other applications that use tabs?
[10:48] <bspencer> other applicatoins that /will/ use tabs.   I'll have to look at my 770 / N800
[10:48] <bspencer> like chat application will use tabs
[10:48] <asac> yes it should be configurable if we really want to use tabs like they are in firefox
[10:49] <asac> i mean if i look at the hildon desktop the window decoration is already somehow like a tab
[10:49] <bspencer> it appears that way due to their theme
[10:49] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: sorry, matchbox won't be uploaded today.  I'm just too tired to review this properly.
[10:49] <bspencer> if you look at the mobile-ui spec, you'll see that it doesn't always have to look that way.
[10:49] <bspencer> Mithrandir: slacker
[10:49] <asac> you have a link at hand?
[10:50] <Mithrandir> bspencer: yeah, I only started working 14 hours ago.
[10:50] <bspencer> :)
[10:50] <asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/Browser ?
[10:50] <asac> that one?
[10:50] <bspencer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserInterface
[10:51] <bspencer> shows the top-level UI (or something like it).  with ideas inside for other options
[10:52] <asac> i don't see how we swich between multiple applications
[10:52] <asac> (running applications)
[10:52] <bspencer> it would be a plugin on the marquee
[10:52] <bspencer> drop-down, or like gnome panel, or other clever yet-to-be shown idea
[10:52] <bspencer> it could also be just like Nokia UI
[10:52] <bspencer> with a little arrow showing running apps
[10:52] <asac> ah ok
[10:53] <bspencer> we'll cretae plugins for all these and the user can organize them how they wish
[10:54] <bspencer> ok.  so what can you do in the short term, before we have our repo accessible
[10:54] <bspencer> you can edit the mobile browser spec freely
[10:55] <bspencer> you can look into Hildon porting of Firefox
[10:55] <asac> i can hack the configure.in ... so we have an --application=mdi-browser configure swtich
[10:55] <bspencer> menus, or windows, toobars, etc.
[10:55] <bspencer> yes
[10:55] <asac> e.g. now you build firefox with --application=browser
[10:56] <bspencer> mdi-browser -- must plays MDI music
[10:56] <asac> rofl
[10:56] <asac> what target name do you want then?
[10:57] <bspencer> "Mobile Internet Browser" ?
[10:57] <bspencer> kind of lame
[10:57] <bspencer> eventually would be nice to get a name
[10:57] <bspencer> but generic is good for today I think
[10:57] <asac> MIB ... i thikn i mixed those letters
[10:57] <bspencer> Well, we call our x86-based tablets "Mobile Internet Devices"
[10:57] <bspencer> or MID
[10:58] <bspencer> so we often refer to things as "MID Browser" "MID Media Player"
[10:58] <asac> its your say ... but its probably not hard to change
[10:58] <asac> ok so lets use application=midbrowser for now?
[10:58] <asac> we can always change that
[10:58] <bspencer> yes, good 
[10:59] <asac> ok ... so i create a local branch of latest upstream 2.0.0.x  ... and add a branch where we will put our patches
[11:00] <asac> on that branch i will work on the build system for now
[11:00] <bspencer> ok
[11:00] <asac> and take a look how easy we can use HildonWindow (maybe it just works?)
[11:00] <bspencer> (we are using 2.0.0.4 as the base today)
[11:00] <bspencer> maybe it just works
[11:00] <asac> yes ... thats the latest
[11:01] <bspencer> piece of cake
[11:01] <asac> what did you do so far?
[11:01] <bspencer> great.  thanks for helping out
[11:01] <bspencer> import, retheme, remove Firefox
[11:01] <asac> maybe you already have hacks that we can make proper?
[11:01] <asac> bspencer: branding is simple
[11:02] <bspencer> and change the package to use our "Welcome to your Mobile Browser" default webpage
[11:02] <asac> ok so you really want to make a package right from the beginning?
[11:02] <asac> we can base that on our latest firefox package ... should be fairly easy to adapt
[11:03] <bspencer> we want to have something to put into an image that has the latest UI, browser, media player, etc.  Even at their early stages.   That's the only real reason we packaged it 
[11:03] <bspencer> so someone could get a demo unit working quickly and see the latest progress.
[11:04] <asac> ok ... i just think we should get at least the basic things gong before caring for packaging.
[11:04] <bspencer> we'd like to regularly update our images so that people can play with the stuff on their Samsung devices (or other, as we discover other good devices)
[11:04] <asac> ok i can provide a package rather quick ... maybe i can even get someone of mozillateam to help out
[11:04] <asac> what is regularly?
[11:04] <asac> every 2 weeks?
[11:04] <bspencer> asac: it can just be local packaging -- for example in our repo only.  
[11:05] <bspencer> not sure if we need to push up formally that part
[11:05] <asac> ok ... just add it to todo list
[11:05] <asac> i can provide a package as soon as we need it then
[11:05] <bspencer> cool.
[11:05] <asac> and updating package to latest is just a matter of rebuilding and changing changelog
[11:05] <bspencer> I would say every 2-3 weeks, or when big changes take place
[11:06] <bspencer> for example, in Tribe 3, it would be nice if the image contained a browser, even if it wasn't really optimized for the small screen yet
[11:06] <asac> ok ... so lets say we try to get a first package ready at the end of spring?
[11:06] <asac> sprint
[11:06] <asac> :)
[11:06] <asac> not spring
[11:06] <bspencer> that is a good goal.
[11:06] <bspencer> you are right that we can leverage the Firefox packgae
[11:06] <asac> should be doable ... though who knows
[11:06] <bspencer> question:  we looked at that package and it had a bunch of patches
[11:06] <bspencer> do you write all those patches?
[11:07] <bspencer> and do you verify them for ever point release (2.0.0.x) ?
[11:07] <asac> no i don't write them
[11:07] <asac> i untangled all ... from one huge monolithic patch
[11:07] <asac> i wrote some ... but most are from bugzilla
[11:08] <asac> bspencer: yes we verify like: we see if they still apply orif the issue they tackle is fixed
[11:08] <asac> but usually i track them in bugzilla ... either submitted them on my own ... or trying to push upstream to include them so we can drop them from our package
[11:09] <asac> my current goal is reduce our patchset with every new release
[11:09] <asac> ... and try not to add new ... though sometimes i still have to.
[11:10] <bspencer> of course
[11:10] <asac> ok ... can you fill in the steps and a todo list into spec/wiki?
[11:10] <bspencer> yes
[11:10] <asac> i will look at it then and tell you if i see more... or if you forgot something
[11:10] <bspencer> will do that tomorrow.  today I've got some other deadlines
[11:11] <bspencer> good idea
[11:11] <asac> cool .. have to go :)
[11:11] <bspencer> thanks for your help
[11:11] <asac> its late here... and my honey is waiting ;)
[11:11] <bspencer> have a good night.
[11:11] <asac> ok bye
[11:11] <bspencer> sounds fun
[11:11] <asac> you too
[11:11] <asac> hehe
[11:11] <asac> bye
[11:11] <bspencer> be
[11:11] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: No problem. Sorry for the delay, I was really distracted.
[11:11] <bspencer> bye
[11:13] <bspencer> agoliveira: hello
[11:13] <bspencer> are you about to leave the office?
[11:15] <agoliveira> bspencer: Unless you have a good reason not to :)
[11:15] <bspencer> agoliveira: tell me yourunderstanding of the control panel status?
[11:15] <agoliveira> bspencer: Simply put: none.
[11:16] <agoliveira> bspencer: I just packaged the little prick. Have no idea how it works.
[11:16] <agoliveira> Oh, sorry
[11:16] <bspencer> :)
[11:16] <bspencer> ok.  so it is in bazaar, but not upstream?
[11:16] <bspencer> does your package include the newer, in-the-last-week control panel code?
[11:17] <agoliveira> bspencer: Yes because it needs to be check and uploaded.
[11:17] <agoliveira> Yes, it does.
[11:17] <bspencer> so if I pull from bazaar, I should get a working control panel, hopefully
[11:17] <agoliveira> Actually it was sync with svn hours ago.
[11:17] <bspencer> I will do so, and change the code if I have problems for you to see patches.
[11:17] <agoliveira> Just push there and it will be fine
[11:18] <bspencer> we had some small dependency problems, but maybe you already addressed them
[11:18] <bspencer> but that was just our pulling from svn, not from bazaar
[11:18] <bspencer> so I'll try your stuff
[11:18] <agoliveira> BTW, it deppends on l10n files which I also pushed. 
[11:18] <agoliveira> You will see a dep for osso-app-killer. It's not needed.
[11:19] <bspencer> ok, that rings a bell
[11:19] <bspencer> if I want to create a configuratoin package for hildon desktop in bazaar, do I have the poewr to do that? 
[11:19] <bspencer> on Monday I'd like to get the new user interface working, at least in bazaar and ready for pushing up.
[11:19] <agoliveira> Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
[11:20] <bspencer> hildon-desktop now shows a Maemo UI
[11:20] <agoliveira> You mean create a package?
[11:20] <bspencer> but if you check out the mobile-ui spec, we have plans for a very different UI
[11:20] <bspencer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserInterface
[11:20] <bspencer> to get there we need to split the hildon-package configuration stuff into a separate package
[11:20] <bspencer> s/hildon-package/hildon-desktop package
[11:21] <bspencer> so that a user can decide to load the maemo-config or the mid-config  settings
[11:21] <agoliveira> I see. You should have not problems, just branch, hack, push
[11:21] <bspencer> ok
[11:21] <bspencer> and i have a new theme package too
[11:21] <bspencer> and I have a new multimedia package too
[11:21] <agoliveira> Once you're done, ask me or Tollef to upload (actually I'll ask Tollef as I can't do it myself :) )
[11:22] <bspencer> groovy
[11:22] <agoliveira> Same thing. AFAIK, should work for you as the same as for me.
[11:22] <agoliveira> One warning:
[11:23] <bspencer> yes
[11:23] <agoliveira> The way maemo is (de)organized, specially regarding dependencies and locales can be daunting. Shout if you need any help on that. I'll shout with you ;)
[11:23] <bspencer> yes -- the locales thing I still don't undertand
[11:23] <agoliveira> The "daunting" part came from Happy Feet :)
[11:24] <bspencer> I finally started grasping the theme. although I still  don't fully understand all the optimized grphics caching and sapwood stuff
[11:24] <agoliveira> AFAIK, that was created to speed up graphics over Nokia tabletes. We will probably going to get rid of it.
[11:26] <agoliveira> Anything else? If not, I'm off but I'll read my emails later or during the weekend if you need anything urgent.
[11:26] <bspencer> nope
[11:26] <bspencer> see you monday
[11:26] <agoliveira> Bye. Have a nice weekend.
[11:26] <bspencer> thx
[12:11] <rusty> who joined? who quit?