TheMusojbHey folks.12:16
TheMusohey folks12:16
persiaHey TheMuso.12:16
persiaTheMuso: Could I convince you to change the license on the packaging for the ubuntustudio-* stuff?  The packages look great, but I'm concerned about GPL vs. CC-BY-SA.  Is this a copy of GPL packaging, or is it yours?12:17
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TheMusopersia: Its not my call. I am a member of the team, and have been asked to state the deal with the licensing on their behalf. I am noexpert, so take it up with them please. If anything, I am with you on this one.12:19
persiaTheMuso: I ask you because you hold copyright on the packaging for the last two packages a reviewed :)12:20
TheMusoWell I'd have to have another look. Which ones are they?12:20
TheMusoBut I didn't choose the license.12:20
TheMusoIts just because I did packaging work on them.12:20
TheMusoNo actual artistic work.12:20
persiaTheMuso: Right.  It's only the packaging license that bothers me.  I'll get you a list in a moment.12:21
persiaTheMuso: My apologies.  Apparently it's only one for you: ubuntustudio-screensaver (http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5764).12:23
TheMusoWell I haven't even really looked that one over, but I did have a hand in the packaging.12:23
persiaTheMuso: It looks great to me except for " The Debian packaging is (C) 2007, Luke Yelavich and is licensed under the GPL, see above." on CC-BY-SA content.12:24
TheMusoSo what should it be?12:25
ajmitchhey TheMuso 12:26
TheMusoHey ajmitch.12:26
persiaTheMuso: Almost anything else.  I'd recommend CC-BY-SA for maximum compatibility, but PubDom, X11, or BSD would all also be compatible.12:26
TheMusogah I hate licenses.12:26
TheMusoAlways does my head in.12:26
persiaTheMuso: Thanks :)12:27
TheMusopersia: So I can get a better understanding, how is GPL and the CC-BY-SA incompatible?12:29
persiaTheMuso: It has something to do with the attribution.  See http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses and http://people.debian.org/~evan/ccsummary.html for opinions by people who actually understand licensing (I just search the web, and have a set of rules of thumb).12:31
TheMusoWell how then do the ubuntustudio guys think that the other artwork packages have similar compatible licenses?12:31
persiaTheMuso: They followed the example of ubuntu-artwork :(12:32
TheMusoSO how does ubuntu-artwork get in?12:32
persiaTheMuso: More generally, _MMA_ and I agreed yesterday that the licensing should probably be fixed, rather than propagate the bug.12:33
persiaTheMuso: I'm not sure - it looks like a bug to me.12:33
TheMusoSo its just the debian packaging thats conflicting with GPL correct?12:34
persiaTheMuso: Rather the debian packaging is GPL, so the combined work of the binary package cannot be distributed for upstream CC-BY-SA.12:35
=== TheMuso ponders whether he should just completely fix up screensaver, and re-upload to REVU.
=== TheMuso doesn't want to tread on toes.
TheMusoYet Toby Smithe hasn't been around alot.12:35
persiaTheMuso: I think that's easiest, as otherwise we need to document your approval of changing the license somehow.12:36
TheMusopersia: Whats easiest?12:36
persia***TheMuso ponders whether he should just completely fix up screensaver, and re-upload to REVU.12:37
_MMA_persia: Wait. So you mean to say we need to change the license on the contents and not the package?12:37
persia_MMA_: either works, but changing the packaging license is likely easier.12:37
_MMA_Yes. We cant change the contents.12:38
_MMA_TheMuso: The screensaver should just be whatever the Ubuntu one is right?12:38
TheMuso_MMA_: I don't know.12:38
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TheMusoI am no license expert.12:39
_MMA_Well I was saying we just copy that one.12:39
_MMA_I thought thats what we did anyway.12:39
persia_MMA_: As far as I know, that is what you did.  I'm just picky about licenses (having had too many archive-admin rejects from things I advocated).12:40
minghuaI only read the IRC discussion and didn't check the packages, but I am going to jump in anyway:12:41
minghuaI believe the Ubuntu stance is that cc-by-sa is okay to enter archive12:42
minghuabut I agree with persia that cc-by-sa package with packaging licensed to GPL is definitely a no-go12:42
persiaminghua: Absolutely.  There's no problem with CC-BY-SA, just mixing with GPL is not OK.12:42
_MMA_persia: I see. We'll probably uncover another bug. ;)12:43
_MMA_(darn router)12:43
minghuapersia: BTW I just commented a REVU package to use the same license as upstream for packaging :-)12:44
persiaminghua: That's my general recommendation, although I don't have any objections to compatible licenses (e.g. CC-BY-SA content with BSD packaging).12:44
=== TheMuso ponders which way to go for screensaver
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TheMusoand notes he doesn't have a lot of time before he has to go.12:45
minghuapersia: my case was LGPL upstream and GPL packaging.  I think it's ok, but I would prefer simple situations.12:46
persiaTheMuso: May as well go CC-BY-SA: it's the easiest choice, and makes debian/copyright nice and short.12:46
TheMusopersia: ubuntustudio-default-settings is a bit of a hack, and I wish that wasn't uploaded, as I would rather do that myself.12:46
minghuaIt's not like you're going to lose anything by changing you packaging from GPL to LGPL12:46
persiaminghua: Yeah.  That falls under "recommendation" rather than "advocation block" for me.12:46
TheMusoI need to fix a few things in it that are against sanity.12:46
persiaTheMuso: Archive it and do it differently :)12:46
minghuapersia: Definitely.  I put it to "things should be fixed" section.12:47
TheMusopersia: Yep ok.12:47
TheMusoJust don't have time today and won't be able to for the next week.12:47
persiaTheMuso: Maybe leave a comment then.  Toby might be around, and can have a go.12:47
TheMusowho uploaded it?12:47
TheMusoI don't remember doing so.12:48
persiaTheMuso: Toby12:48
TheMusothought so12:48
persiaTheMuso: On the other hand, that one doesn't have any licensing issues :)12:50
TheMusopersia: I know, as I created it from the ground up.12:50
TheMusoanyway, time to go start getting ready.12:54
persiaTheMuso: have a good trip.12:54
TheMusopersia: Thanks.12:55
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peanutbIs it bad if i uploaded a Multiverse package change to REVU?01:57
persiapeanutb: Probably not.  Is it a new upstream version?01:59
peanutbI just made a small change to include the logo for acidrip.01:59
persiapeanutb: To ask differently, is the change an upgrade, or just a patch?01:59
peanutbpersia, just a patch02:00
persiapeanutb: REVU isn't really the right place for patches.  You'll get a faster response by attaching a debdiff to the bug.  See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing for some instructions (under "Preparing New Revisions").02:01
persiapeanutb: Also, which package?  I'd like to archive the REVU upload.02:02
peanutbok. I didnt really read that. The debdiff is on the bug. Its called acidrip02:03
peanutbThanks for helping a stupid person such as me with this.02:04
persiapeanutb: No problem :)  I'm archiving the REVU upload now.  Please request sponsorship with ubuntu-universe-sponsors for this.02:05
peanutbok thanks again02:05
DktrKranzwe prepared a spec to provide some php5 packages which are no longer included in php5 package in main: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/php5-universe02:11
DktrKranzwe would like to propose this brand new package before feature freeze02:11
minghuathe mail sent to -devel-discuss about checksums is interesting02:12
DktrKranzis it worth presenting it to some MOTU Meeting?02:12
persiaI don't think you need to present it at a meeting.  The spec looks straightforward (not that I know much about PHP5 packaging).  I suspect you just need REVU and uploading.02:13
DktrKranzit's on REVU ready for review02:14
DktrKranzbut last word should be pitti's02:14
DktrKranzanyway, we will be happy to start fixing packaging mistakes02:15
minghuaDktrKranz: so the "we have a separate php-interbase source" in php5 changelog is wrong?02:15
DktrKranzminghua, yes02:15
DktrKranz(as of today)02:16
DktrKranzwe had in feisty02:16
DktrKranzbut it is no longer the case02:16
DktrKranzsee package-removals.02:16
minghuaDktrKranz: why is it dropped?02:16
DktrKranzobsolete source package02:17
DktrKranzit was uploaded but never kept synced with php502:17
DktrKranzso it was dropped02:18
DktrKranzin gutsy02:18
minghuaI see02:18
DktrKranzphp5-interbase was never uploaded IIRC02:18
DktrKranzphp5-imap and php5-mcrypt did02:18
minghuaphp5-interbase is in the removal list, so it should have been uploaded at least some time02:19
DktrKranzprobably yes, I don't remember correctly02:19
DktrKranzthey never reached gutsy, though02:20
DktrKranzand there are several packages requiring them02:20
DktrKranzso we should take it into consideration02:21
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DktrKranz(or at least I think so)02:21
minghuaDktrKranz: is the merging strategy agreed on?02:22
minghuaregardless the situation, I don't see much point discuss this in a MOTU meeting02:22
minghuaif the php5 main maintainer (I assume pitti) approves, and there are enough manpower to keep it in sync with Debian php5 source, I don't see any controversy02:22
DktrKranzthe major point is: how can we manage sync with php5 in main?02:22
=== persia thinks the issue is really only the resources to keep it up to date
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persiaDktrKranz: I don't think a little skew is an issue.  if you have a dedicated team, and someone uploads new versions within a couple days, it should be OK.02:23
DktrKranzwe can arrange it02:23
DktrKranzit's not a problem02:24
DktrKranzthere are only few files to look at02:24
minghuayeah, as long as there is a promise to keep things in sync for each alpha/beta release, I would say it's okay02:24
minghuatemporary version mismatch always happen02:24
DktrKranzwe need to coordinate with php5 maintainers in order to avoid a double php5-* if some universe depends will be dropped or promoted02:25
minghuaDktrKranz: it would be nice if you can clarify the status of the php5-{interbase,imap,mcrypt} packages in gutsy on the spec, though02:26
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DktrKranzminghua, could you explain that?02:26
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minghuaDktrKranz: The question I asked about php5-interbase earlier.  I should be able to find answers on the spec IMO.02:27
sitiHi, are there any tools (I am thinking of making one) that integrates a sane distributed source code management (git etc) with the debian packaging.  I ask this because my experience of creating debian packages is truly awful, especially modifying patches.02:28
DktrKranzI'm going to add that ASAP02:28
persiasiti: You might be interested in svn-buildpackage and bzr-buildpackage02:29
sitipersia: cheers02:29
minghuathere is gtk-buildpackage IIRC02:29
persiaWow.  apt-cache search buildpackage shows support for quite a few VCSs.02:30
sitiminghua: yes, but it's not in ubuntu :(02:30
minghuasiti: even not in gutsy?02:31
sitiI will have a play on the bzr one and see if it's similar to what I was thinking :)02:31
sitiI will have a look on gutsy, one sec02:31
persiasiti: It's new in gutsy.02:31
minghuaalthough I doubt those *-buildpackage things are exactly intended for the usage siti described02:31
minghua(I have only looked at svn-buildpackage, though)02:32
sitiminghua: yeah you're right, these just build from git/bzr/* source code02:32
persiasiti: I may have misunderstood then.  What are you seeking to do?02:33
DktrKranzwell, if you could have a look at http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5701 for a first review, we can begin fixing package02:33
sitiwhat I am after is something that manages the debian/* the source code, automatic cleaning (no stupid writing rules), maintaining patches to the source code, allowing for bumping with good merging/conflict resolution02:33
sitisorry I haven't expalined it to well, but do you see what I mean?02:33
sitihave you guys played with dpatch-edit-patch and wanted to kill it?02:34
minghuasiti: and you want to keep track of the git repo of upstream, right?02:35
=== minghua uses dpatch-edit-patch and is mostly happy with it
AndyPi've found dpatch-edit-patch quite handy02:35
persiasiti: Ah.  *-buildpackage allows VCS of debian/, CDBS automates a lot of the rule-writing, I actually like dpatch for maintaining patches, although some people report quilt to be better, and you might want to look at DaD for automated merging (although there are still bugs).02:35
sitiwell, optionally would be nice, if the package does not use git then the tool could grab a new version manually02:36
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minghuaI've heard quilt is better, too.02:36
AndyPquilt is nice too, after you get your head around the stack idea ;)02:37
sitiwell just a simple flaw in debian-edit-patch is: I am creating a patch, I edit some of source code, and I want to test it, if I try and test it the patch is screwed02:37
minghuahow so?02:37
persiasiti: Generally, packaging is encouraged of upstream releases (uscan helps automate this), but see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/CommonPackagingMistakes/ChangingTheOrigTarball for an example get-orig-source: rule that can help automate grabbing new VCS snapshots.02:37
sitibecause by me building I made some generated files02:37
minghuayou are using dpatch wrong02:38
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sitihow am I mean to use it then?02:38
minghuagenerate a patch, then run "debian/rules patch", then test02:38
minghuadon't test/build/whatever in the dpatch generated temporary tree02:39
sitiwhat about all the **** packages that die after a second build?02:39
persiaGenerally, I generate a patch, build a source package, and test build the source package.02:39
persiasiti: Those are bugs.02:39
minghuawhich packages die after a second build?02:40
minghuafile bugs and they'll be fixed02:40
minghua(most likely there is already a bug filed in Debian)02:40
sitiwhy is there no automated testing of the double build problem?02:40
persiasiti: No, really.  There's a couple people trying to fix that for every Debian package, and if you find any new packages with the problem, it would be a great help to make sure they are reported.02:41
minghuathere is, currently, in Debian02:41
minghuathat's why I asked which packages those are02:41
sitiwell we could make those people obsolete and free to work on decent things ;)02:41
sitixkeyboard-config for one02:41
sitiiirc gksu/libgksu02:41
minghuaI don't see Debian bugs on either gksu or libgksu02:42
minghuaxkeyboard-config is http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=42411202:43
ubotuDebian bug 424112 in xkeyboard-config "xkeyboard-config: FTBFS if built twice in a row" [Important,Open]  02:44
sitiseriously, if I get my idea in action, I think maintaining debian packages will be twice as easy ;)02:44
sitiproblem is no one would move to it knowing the slow debian devs ;)02:45
minghuasiti: I don't know what you idea is, and I honestly don't see how your VCS based build system question is related to the "fails to build twice in a row" bugs02:46
sitiyou could automate cleaning by using a VCS02:46
persiasiti: What if you have local changes that you haven't yet published, and want to test?02:47
sitithat's where a DVCS shines :D02:47
minghuathen instead of publishing source packages, you need to publish a VCS repo02:47
minghuanot necessarily a bad idea, but I don't see it happening soon02:48
sitiwell it's a bit different for a DVCS, and an export function to the old format would be good, although the generated patches might be strange02:48
AndyPi'm pretty sure i've heard this idea before, not that i understand it fully, but i can't remember where from02:48
sitiAndyP: maybe in your head, because it's such a good idea ;)02:49
minghuaIf the implementation is there, I think many people will be interested.02:49
sitiyeah, hopefully it's not to hard to make02:50
sitiand one cool advantage is upstream can just cherry pick :)02:50
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minghuaI want to point out though, such an system can never be enforced, at least not in Debian02:50
minghuaespecially considering there are so many VCS floating around02:51
sitithose rebels :p02:51
minghuasiti: FYI there are quite a few DDs in this channel.02:52
sitiyeah, I am just joking with them02:52
minghua(and I am a Debian package maintainer, not DD though)02:52
=== persia points at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/no-more-source-packages
sitipersia: thanks02:52
pleia2actually I think a lot of us in here are debian package maintainers02:54
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DktrKranzminghua, I edited a bit the spec02:55
AndyPpersia: bah, you beat me to it :)02:56
minghuaDktrKranz: That clarified all my questions, thanks.02:57
DktrKranzthanks to you :)02:57
=== minghua doesn't really like the "no more source packages" idea
=== persia rather likes source packages.
sitiminghua: have you used a DVCS?02:58
minghuasiti: not really.02:58
sitithe current package model reminds me of projects that email each other the source code ;)02:59
sitiie: it's very difficult :p02:59
minghuaI have bzr installed and did a branch once.  I use svk regularly.  But mainly my experience is on svn.02:59
AndyPi'd like to try the idea just to see what it's like, but i have my reservations02:59
minghuasiti: well, the current model predates most DVCS, so you can't really blame that02:59
sitiyeah I wasn't blaming them, just saying new stuff is out that's better ;)03:00
minghuathe current model perhaps even predates widespread use of email now that I think about it03:00
persiasiti: It's somewhat like emailing patches, but there shouldn't be that many pending changes to a package (if it's broken, fix it).  Most of the interesting effects you get with DVCS are more interesting for the upstream code.03:00
minghuasiti: that's why I am saying if implementation is there, people will be interested03:00
persiaminghua: No.  Debian is post emailed patches.03:00
minghuapersia: I said "widespread" :-P03:02
minghuaalthough I admit source packages is not a thing end-user should worry about, so widespread email usage is probably irrelevant03:03
sitibut the end user is a developer in a lot of cases03:03
minghuanot really. especially for ubuntu03:05
AndyPdevs are the vocal minority03:05
=== persia thinks this depends on the definition of "a lot". The number may be thousands, but it is still less than a tenth of a percent of users.
minghuaa lot of ubuntu users even consider "rebuild a source package" an impossible task, and prefer to download binary packages from untrusted internet sites03:05
minghuawhich is really something I frown upon03:06
=== persia wonders why apt-get --build install isn't more popular
AndyP$graphical_apt_frontend doesn't support it, perhaps03:07
minghuapersia: perhaps because the default installation doesn't have a deb-src line in sources.list? :-)03:07
persiaAndyP: Yep.  That's probably it.  Hmm.  That'd be an interesting feature.03:07
persiaminghua: I think that's a side effect of AndyP's note - my memory is that default Debian did include deb-src (although I last installed Debian afresh for potato, so I could very well be wrong).03:08
minghuapersia: They don't for sarge and etch, I'm sure.03:08
minghuaThere is a commented off line, though.03:09
persiaminghua: Makes sense.03:09
minghuaalso, apt-get --build install is not particularly a small task if you don't have build-essential and various -dev package installed03:10
persiaminghua: True.  Also, the dependencies can interfere with the current system if it's not done in a chroot.03:11
minghuapersia: I am curious.  Any examples?03:11
persiaminghua: Still, it's better than apt-get.org :)03:11
persiaminghua: "interfere" was perhaps too strong a word.  Rather, install extra unwanted software, perhaps generating extra menu items that are confusing.03:12
minghuawell, considering even automatix is praised a lot somewhere else, I'll refrain from complaining about apt-get.org, and just accept that I don't understand the users03:13
minghuapersia: yeah, extra menu items is annoying03:13
minghuathat's probably my main reason for not installing KDE03:13
minghua(and less download for upgrade, I think)03:14
persiaMore specifically, `dpkg --get-selections > my.selections && apt-get build-dep foo && apt-get --build install foo && sed /foo/d < my.selections | dpkg --set-selections` isn't guaranteed not to leave a footprint.03:14
minghuaI think dpkg --set-selctions doesn't do the actual removal of the packages?03:17
minghuaanyway, that line is too hard for me to digest03:18
persiaminghua: No, you're right.  One needs to follow up with something to actually process the removals.03:19
minghuapersia: and why did you removed foo from my.selections?03:20
persiaminghua: The whole point was to install foo.  Thinking about it, I probably wanted to add foo, rather than deleting it.03:21
minghuaand you probably want to consider reinstalling foo as well03:22
persiaminghua: Why?  Unless I put it in a repo, won't I not get the local copy?03:22
persiaAlternately, skip the install: have apt do only the build, and use gdebi for the install.03:23
minghuano, I mean if I already have foo installed, but it's broken (say, obsolete dependency) and can be fixed by a rebuild03:24
persiaminghua: Right.  So, I rebuilt it locally, and installed the local copy.  Why reinstall?03:24
persiaOr do you mean apt-get --build --reinstall install foo?03:25
minghuabut your old and new "dpkg --get-selections" list will both include foo03:25
minghuaand you don't want to have two "foo" lines there03:25
minghuathat's all I meant by "you probably want to consider..."03:26
persiaminghua: Ah.  In that case, since the version didn't change (no changelog update), it won't cause any issues to just leave my.selections alone.  I was thinking of the case where foo was uninstallable for some reason, and the user really wanted it.03:26
minghuapersia: I don't really know what "apt-get --build install" do, though03:26
persiaminghua: It downloads the source, calls dpkg-buildpackage, and installs the result.03:27
minghuayes, yes.  I am just pointing out another user case for rebuilding a pristine source package03:27
persiaRight.  Now, if only there weren't so many drawbacks regarding implications to the rest of the system of having all the build-deps installed, I'd think we were close to a spec for a graphical rebuild tool :)03:28
minghuapersia: in that case, you also want to add "apt-get install build-essential" in your long line :-P03:28
persiaminghua: Doesn't apt-get build-dep foo do that as well?  Hmmm....03:29
minghuaI don't think so03:29
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minghuapersia: in any case, such a tool as we just discussed will be of limited use, as most end-users want an updated/changed source package to build anyway03:30
persiaminghua: Yeah.  There's lots of reasons why such a tool is only for limited use.  Aside from updates, and system consistency, one needs to consider the support headaches of that many custom builds.03:31
minghuaI was looking at www.getdeb.net and was surprised that such effort will attract so many users and developers03:31
minghuayeah, if we have such a tool, it really should change the package version number03:32
persiaCopyright Canonical?  Interesting.  While www.apt-get.org seemed a reasonable response to the opacity of Debian processes (especially during the long DAM freeze), I would think that Ubuntu's processes were open enough that it wouldn't be necessary.03:33
persia(it = getdeb)03:34
minghuawell, that's why I say I was surprised03:35
minghuaIt seems to me that site is just a pretty site that publish all REVU uploads03:36
Flanneleh?  getdeb isn't copyright canonical03:36
persiaFlannel: Yes it is (in part).  See the bottom of the front page.03:36
minghuaand my cynical side thinks it probably is03:36
Flannelpersia: no.  Read the line again.03:36
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Flannel 2007 Joo Pinto - GetDeb - www.getdeb.net03:37
Flannel 2007 Canonical Ltd. Ubuntu and Canonical are registered trademarks of Canonical Ltd.03:37
persiaFlannel: If there's no Canonical input, " 2007 Canonical Ltd. " either represents an assignment or a misattribution.03:37
Hobbseewell, the trademarks are ubuntu's i suspect03:38
Flannelpersia: I believe that's a "Ubuntu and Canonical are C Canonical"03:38
AndyPit's certainly ambiguous03:38
FlannelRight.  But he's not up on the legalities, apparently.03:38
minghuamaybe they took some website design?03:39
persiaFlannel: Ah.  That's not quite accurate.  I suspect "Ubuntu and Canonical are trademarks of Canonical Ltd." would mean that.03:39
Flannelit's certainly not owned by C03:39
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goukigetdeb.net is owned by a guy on my LoCo Team03:53
persiagouki: Ah.  You might mention the copyright attribution then.  It may not be correct (although this does not represent legal advice).03:54
goukipersia: yeah, sure thing. I'll talk to him ASAP!03:54
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persiaSorry for the delay.  Any comments on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings/2007-06-30 before I officially publish?04:53
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=== ajmitch wonders if freenode is breaking again
persiaIt might just be a persistent client.05:04
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ajmitchwell there were several people that dropped offline with excess flood05:04
persiaRight.  But only one seems to be continually bouncing.05:05
persiaSo, in the absence of criticism, I'm publishing the minutes.05:06
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Burgundaviacan I interest any MOTU is writing up a short bit on the MOTU meeting for the UWN?05:28
persiaBurgundavia: Can you give me an example of a previous writeup?05:30
Burgundaviathis would be the first05:30
persiaBurgundavia: OK.  What size?  What tone?  (I'm happy to draft something, but I don't know what I'd be writing).05:30
Burgundaviathe key bits would be mention where you need help, what the community can do05:31
persiaBurgundavia: OK.  So, for the recent meeting, a short paragraph covering decisions and a highlight of the upcoming events (as listed in Daniel's mail)?05:32
Burgundaviabasically, yep05:32
persiaBurgundavia: Something like http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/27901/ ?05:39
persia(with line breaks) :)05:40
Burgundaviapersia: looks good, but I would add bits about how people can help you05:41
Burgundaviaremember, this is part of an outreach tool05:41
persiaHmm...  I'm not so strong with community outreach.  Anyone else?05:41
BurgundaviaYou could say: The MOTU team is looking for help with BLAH, BLAH AND BLAH. A great way to get involved is at the upcoming Hug Day at ....05:42
persiaBurgundavia: At issue is more that I don't have good replacements for BLAH, BLAH, and BLAH, aside from bug triage and bug patches.05:43
Burgundaviawhat about the clamav stuff?05:44
persiaBurgundavia: It certainly needs resources, but those working on it need a repository to which to upload.  Depending on how PPA works, it might not be so bad (this is under investigation).05:44
persiaBurgundavia: I think the key bits are really the HUG Day and the Q&A sessions - most REVU users will be happy to have a REVU day, but more submissions to REVU doesn't necessarily help.05:47
Burgundaviacool, ok05:48
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minghuaREVU apparently doesn't need outreach05:56
minghuaoutreach only makes the queue longer, I suppose :-)05:57
minghuaBurgundavia: do you think the ordinary reader of UWN knows what MOTU is?05:58
persiaminghua: Depends on how you look at it.  The existence of getdeb makes me think REVU needs outreach, but I don't think we're currently staffed to handle increased volume.05:59
minghuapersia: True.  But I am also thinking that getdeb may have its place06:00
minghuaI am not very optimistic about the package qualities on getdeb06:00
persiaminghua: Really?  Wouldn't backports + more REVU be a cleaner solution?  That way the packages should be better quality, and users should be happier.06:01
minghuapersia: the key is _more_ REVU06:01
=== persia notes that the backports team backlog is also large enough
Burgundaviathere are some things that cannot go int eh archives06:01
minghuaso far I don't see a clear solution to get more reviewing power06:01
Burgundaviagetdeb has some questionably legal stuff06:01
persiaBurgundavia: Some, but a lot of it is legal (or could be with a couple emails), but just shiny.06:02
minghuayeah, the top downloads seem most in the "released yesterday" category06:02
Burgundaviait looks like getdeb sucks a lot of people away06:02
persiaminghua: The recent revised MOTU process should get more people, and I'm hoping REVU2 will provide better workflow.  I believe part of the problem with REVU is that it's hard to know what you've already done.06:03
minghuapersia: maybe, I always think that REVU, or on a tangent topic, Debian, is not very good at attracting people to join and help is the high technical standard06:04
minghuapersia: that of course is from my limited, and most likely not typical, experience06:05
minghuaI've seem quite a few cases that people simply consider "reviewing all the license headers in source" and "run lintian/linda and fix the errors and warnings" an annoyance06:06
persiaminghua: Regarding Debian, I think part of that is that the process is fairly opaque - it's really hard to know how to get involved.  Regarding REVU, I think that a better workflow with faster responses would help: most of the contributors I've seen have been happy with the comments, so long as they come with a bit of explanation.06:06
persiaminghua: Yep.  There's lots of that.  Perhaps a more collaborative REVU - people propose packages, and others work on them until it's good.06:07
minghuapersia: as I said, perhaps different experience06:07
minghuaI don't know.  I also feel the real problem is that for a certain package, the people who are really interested in it and capable of packaging is relatively few06:08
minghuainput method packages are a very good example06:08
minghuawhich is most of my experience coming from06:08
persiaminghua: Really?  With the exception of system infrastructure (like IMEs), I suspect that most packages could be intially constructed by a motivated user with a bit of knowledge, and made good with the help of someone more familiar with debian packaging.06:09
minghuatake the package I reviewed today as example, it's a science related package.  It has sit in REVU for quite a while, went though a few review cycles, but still plenty of lintian warnings.06:10
persiaFor infrastructural things - it's rather different: there's too many things that can go wrong (like my intention to write a quick patch to make scim & anthy work for french locales :))06:10
minghuapersia: Science related stuff is another example.  Maybe I am always interested in the "minority market" packages. :-)06:11
persiaWere the lintian errors mentioned in previous reviews?06:11
Burgundaviamost of the stuff packaged is the latest crack or games06:11
minghuano, it FTBFS in the first review06:11
persiaBurgundavia: Games are good, crack needs review.06:11
persiaminghua: For Science packages, is there anything special that can go wrong easily?  I would think the only domain-specific issue would be non-free data.06:12
minghuapersia: oh, for science stuff, the sticky point is that many upstreams are not very competent programmers themselves06:13
persiaAh.  So there ends up being a lot of work just to get the build system working, 64-bit clean, etc.?06:13
minghuaso you are more likely to see hand-made makefiles, not aware of the 64bit issue, don't know how to properly build a shared library, those kind of stuff06:14
persiaRight.  Frustrating that, and not something easily addressed by MOTU (even with infinite MOTUs working on packages).06:15
StevenKScottK: The licensecheck bug is due to Feisty, and doesn't affect Gutsy.06:15
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minghuapersia: Yeah.  I am just saying: I am willing to do REVU review work, and I think I am competent enough on packaging, but there is simply no package that I'm interested.06:17
persiaminghua: Ah.  I've only reviewed one package so far in which I'm actually interested.  For me, it's just part of the responsibilities of being listed as a reviewer.06:17
minghuaAnd when I find one, sometimes the packaging work is poor, and frustrates me.06:17
minghuapersia: That's why I am not in motu-reviewers team. :-P06:18
minghuaI have been feeling I don't really need to be an MOTU for quite some time.06:18
minghuaI haven't reviewed or sponsored packages since probably mid-feisty, most of my universe packages are direct sync from Debian, and I have good relationship with many MOTUs that I can easily ask for a sponsor upload.06:20
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jmghey all07:01
nixternalway to loud in here07:01
nixternalhowdy jmg 07:01
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jmgwhoa, source for restricted modules is massive07:07
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=== jmg -> beer
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jmgwhere is the debian/rules file for linux-source-2.6.22?09:03
man-di_jmg: apt-get source linux-source-2.6.2209:07
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ajmitchseems like the sound problems I was having was directly due to rhythmbox09:35
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DarkMageZajmitch, extra sound distortion?09:44
ScottKStevenK: Thanks for the debuild fix and working through the checklicense question.09:44
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ajmitchDarkMageZ: yes09:49
ajmitchand it was irritating09:49
ajmitchI was playing around with the main volume controls, didn't think to look for the little volume icon in rb09:50
ajmitchfar too many volume controls 09:50
highvoltagehey ajmitch, how are you?09:50
jmgfar too much work to get gutsy kernel on this box, but i really need it :/09:50
persiaajmitch: Remember, this allows you to degrade your sound as much as you want :)  If you only had one control, you'd be stuck with the maximum available bitrates.09:50
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ajmitchhey highvoltage 09:52
ajmitchpersia: yeah, helpful09:52
ajmitchso tempting to just order a new monitor09:53
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=== ajmitch hugs Hobbsee
Hobbseehey all09:57
=== Hobbsee hugs ajmitch back :)
ajmitchHobbsee: what's up?10:00
jmgO bug #117282, thou all destroying yet unconquering whale, from hells heart i stab at thee.10:00
ubotuLaunchpad bug 117282 in linux-source-2.6.20 "2gb SD card not usable" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/11728210:00
Hobbseeajmitch: w.r.t?10:00
ajmitchHobbsee: life, the universe & everything10:00
jmgI cant even dd the fucking card under Feisty10:01
Hobbseeajmitch: well,  i survived work10:01
jmger 10:01
ajmitchHobbsee: yay!10:01
Hobbseeajmitch: yeah.  le sigh10:01
jmgusing ubuntu is breaking my social life10:01
ajmitchhard day at work?10:01
Hobbseeajmitch: rosters were stuffed, as usual.  but i particularly like the fact that *2* customers were bitching, at once, on different issues, while i was serving other customers entirely.10:03
ajmitchthat sounds like fun10:03
Hobbseeoh yes10:03
ajmitchI'm lucky that I rarely have to deal directly with clients10:03
Hobbseeincluding continuing to bitch, after they'd gotten their refunds/changes/whatever else they wanted.10:03
ajmitcha good exercise in patience10:04
Hobbseenah, a good exercise in keeping control of 10 things at once, and not letting the bitching customers get to you, nor get their way faster.10:04
ajmitchah, looks like gutsy-changes may be fixed to honour Changed-By again10:06
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=== persia celebrates
RainCTpersia: what's on?10:08
persiaRainCT: ajmitch reports improvements to gutsy-changes to give appropriate credit for patches.10:09
RainCTnice :). how will that work?10:09
persiaRainCT: It will use the name and email from Changed-By: as the From: address, rather than the name & email associated with the signature.10:10
ajmitchit was only broken for a few days10:15
ajmitchand I think it was using the Maintainer address, not the signature10:16
RainCTand where will that be shown?10:18
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persiaajmitch: As usual, you're completely correct.10:18
persiaRainCT: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/gutsy-changes/10:18
ajmitch'as usual'?10:18
ajmitchyou're on crack10:18
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persiaAt least in my experience.  Maybe you're only right when you correct my mistakes: I don't pay as much attention other times :)10:19
RainCTI mean in what package10:19
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RainCTbdmurray: ping10:54
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DarkMageZajmitch, probably http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43619211:21
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ajmitchyeah, I knew it was related to the gain stuff11:25
RainCTif in a Debian package there's a not needed file (in /, not debian/) but it anways doesn't get installed (that file), should it be deleted on the next debdiff?11:25
=== ajmitch probably shouldn't add a "me too" there
ajmitchRainCT: I don't think it needs to be deleted11:26
ajmitchthere are plenty of files that don't get used (eg win32 build files) that you wouldn't delete11:26
persiaRainCT: No.  The upstream tarball should be left alone as much as possible.11:28
RainCTok, that's what I tought too :)11:28
persiaRainCT: There is a semi-exception for native packages, where the file is no longer required due to other changes, but these should ideally be handled in Debian.11:29
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RainCT(can someone check my comment on bug 108742?)11:35
ubotuLaunchpad bug 108742 in acidrip "no icon in kde menu" [Wishlist,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/10874211:35
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cbx33I forget do I debuild -sa or -S?11:42
cbx33or which11:43
persiacbx33: It is a new upstream, or just a new revision?  If the former, you want -sa.  if the latter, you don't.11:43
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persiaRainCT: Looks good.  A couple notes: dh_installdirs can take multiple arguments, which is sometimes cleaner.  Ideally there should be a blank line between each rule in debian/rules.  Deletions cannot be processed by the diff.gz, so the deletion of ./1 is probably OK (this may have been an error from a previous packaging).  I'm also confused by your comment on Maintainer.11:48
RainCTpersia: about dh_installdirs, the previous maintainers were putting one at each line, that's why I've said to do the same11:49
persiaRainCT: Ah.  Yes.  The rule that one attempts to mirror existing packaging as much as possible overrides the rule that one should strive for a short and easy to read debian/rules.11:50
RainCTand about maintainer, in his second debdiff he changed Debian's to XSBC-O-M but did not put the Maintainer: {motu list}11:52
cbx33dh_pysupport: debian/vcsfrenzy/usr/lib/python-support/vcsfrenzy doesn't contain modules for any supported python version11:52
cbx33what the heck does that mean?11:52
cbx33I just have some simple py files in there11:52
RainCTpersia: but in his first debdiff he put MOTU as Maintainer, so that's why I say that was ok11:53
persiaRainCT: Right.  That just wasn't clear to me from your comment.11:53
persia(perhaps it will be clear to Paul, so no worries)11:54
cbx33anyone got a secto help out with this python marlarky?11:54
RainCTpersia: what do you mean with the about the deletion of "./1"? that it won't be deleted anyways?11:54
persiaRainCT: Hmm.  Let me look at the package in some detail (reviewing mentoring of patching is too far removed for real understanding).11:55
cbx33gives me the above error11:55
cbx33what am I doing wrong :S11:55
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persiaRainCT: ./1 was in diff.gz as a new file, and appears to be cruft from the original packaging.  Removing it is safe (it's likely the result of using 2&>1 rather than 2>&1).  On the other hand, it doesn't break anything, so removing it without changelog, and without notifying the original maintainer is not the best idea (although it's perhaps worth checking to see if this is an Ubuntu-only addition, in which case deletion is best).11:59
RainCTpersia: ok. thanks12:00
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persiaRainCT: So, to restate: removing files provided in orig.tar.gz should be avoided, unless required.  Adding files in diff.gz outside debian/ should be avoided.  Fixing the latter is OK, but if the problem exists outside Ubuntu, it's better to get the fix outside Ubuntu rather than patching.12:00
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jussi01persia: !02:59
persiaHello jussi0103:00
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bdmurrayRainCT: pong03:33
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jhansonxiAny Ubuntu Wine team members here or are they not part of MOTU?05:50
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RainCTbdmurray: ping? :)05:57
bdmurrayRainCT: I'm headed out the door. What is up?05:57
jhansonxiAre any Wine team members in this channel?05:58
jhansonxior is Wine not part of MOTU?05:58
superm1jhansonxi, i believe the maintainer for wine is running up against the council to become part of MOTU05:58
superm1i'm not sure of the handle they use though05:58
superm1its saturday though, you might not find them in here today either way05:58
RainCTbdmurray: just wanted to know if you have you assigned bug 118655 to you for some reason?05:59
ubotuLaunchpad bug 118655 in acidrip "control file for acidrip has wrong homepage for project" [Low,Triaged]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/11865505:59
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bdmurrayRainCT: Not particularly.06:00
bdmurrayRainCT: Feel free to take it.06:01
RainCTbdmurray: ok. (I ask because there is a patch for bug 108742 in progress and I'd like to add the fix for this to it)06:02
ubotuLaunchpad bug 108742 in acidrip "no icon in kde menu" [Wishlist,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/10874206:02
bdmurrayRainCT: cool, that'd be great. have you seen 118992?06:03
bdmurraybug 11899206:04
ubotuLaunchpad bug 118992 in acidrip "[gutsy]  acidrip crashed with SIGSEGV" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/11899206:04
bdmurrayRainCT: It broke for a while and then magically fixed itself.06:04
RainCTbdmurray: no, I've just looked at the easy ones06:07
bdmurrayRainCT: heh, well it seems to be working now but I am worried about it getting broken again the author hasn't worked on it in quite a while afaict.06:07
bdmurrayRainCT: anyway gotta run thanks for catching / finding that bug06:09
RainCTbdmurray: ok, good day06:10
RainCT(s/day/afternoon :p)06:11
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siretartanyone able to upload to ubuntu around and can test something for me?06:30
ScottKUpload to universe ...06:34
ScottKsiretart: Is that sufficient?06:34
siretartI'm trying to upload g-wrap, but I don't get any response06:34
siretartas in ANY response06:35
ScottKOK.  Want me to try to upload it?06:35
siretartI've done other uploads in the mean time, which did get accepted06:35
siretartyes, that would be very kind06:35
siretartScottK: http://paste.debian.net/3171406:35
=== ScottK looks
siretartthat's the debdiff I wanted to upload06:36
ScottKOK.  I'm just getting my brain fired up here, so it'll be a few minutes.06:36
hugelmopfis the sync request process (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyncRequestProcess) also applyable for packages which are completely new in debian unstable (and not in ubuntu yet), or only for ones which have a newer version then the existing one?06:36
=== ScottK was at the airport until 4AM last night waiting for someone to get out of customs/immigration.
ScottKhugelmopf: New packages too, but you need to say that in the sync request AFAIK.06:37
siretartScottK: if you prefer the debdiff per mail, I can do that06:37
hugelmopfScottK: ok, thanks. which package do i file the bug against?06:37
ScottKNo package06:38
ScottKsiretart: No problem.06:38
hugelmopfScottK: thanks!06:38
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ScottKsiretart: AFAICT you didn't do the maintainer mangling in debian/control ...06:46
siretartScottK: ah?06:47
ScottKsiretart: Should I change that?06:47
siretartScottK: yes please06:47
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siretartI still wonder if that's a reason to ignore uploads, though...06:47
ScottKsiretart: Just noticed you diffed the previous Ubuntu version and not the Debian version.  Sorry.06:48
siretartah, yes06:48
=== ScottK goes and tries again...
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ScottKsiretart: Uplaoded06:53
siretartScottK: and accepted?06:54
ScottKsiretart: I didn't get the accepted mail yet, but it said "Successfully uploaded packages."06:54
siretartScottK: same here06:55
ScottKI guess we wait and see then.06:55
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siretartStevenK: still nothing, no?07:07
siretartScottK:  still nothing, no?07:07
siretartStevenK: never mind07:07
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ScottKsiretart: Still nothing.07:08
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siretartgnarf. need to bug #launchpad, then..07:09
ScottKsiretart: Yes.  It looks like doko uploaded a new gcc about 5 minutes after I uploaded yours and it's showing up/building.07:11
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bur[n] ercan I get help on packaging a simple pygtk app into a .deb here?07:50
ScottKbur[n] er: You are in the right place.07:50
ScottKNot very many people seem to around today though.07:50
bur[n] erwell bummer on that last point07:51
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bur[n] erScottK: you familiar with packaging?  is it fairly complex?07:51
bur[n] erI have this project http://code.google.com/p/gitso/07:51
ScottKYes and sometimes.07:51
=== ScottK looks
bur[n] erit consists of one .py file that could just be moved somewhere like /usr/bin and i still need to make a .desktop file07:52
bur[n] erand it needs to depend on two apps in universe07:52
jussi01bur[n] er: ScottK is one of the MOTU's, ie. MASTERS of the universe... 07:52
ScottKbur[n] er: The first thing I would do for your app is look into Python distutils and make a good setup.py.07:52
ScottKOnce you have that, doing the Debian packaging is easy.07:53
bur[n] erso setup.py should do everything like moving stuff to /usr/bin, copy the .desktop somewhere, etc?07:54
ScottKbur[n] er: Yes.  You will also want stuff like a changelog, COPYING file, man page, and stuff.07:55
=== bur[n] er found http://docs.python.org/dist/setup-script.html that look right?
bur[n] eri have a changelog07:55
=== ScottK looks
ScottKWhich Ubuntu release are you running?07:55
bur[n] eruhh... gutsy right now07:55
bur[n] erbut this app works on dapper on up07:55
ScottKbur[n] er: OK.07:56
bur[n] eris a man page just a text file?  wow, this seems like it has to be way more complex before I can make a .deb07:57
ScottKWhat I'd suggest doing is downloading the source package for pypolicyd-spf (as in apt-get source pypolicyd-spf) and have a look at that.07:57
ScottKIt's slightly more complex than your package, but it has all the stuff (except the .desktop bits) that you'll need to deal with.07:57
bur[n] eror I can just tell people to download my tarball and extracy the .py to run it ;)07:57
ScottKbur[n] er: Yes, you can, but wouldn't it be better to get into the official repositories?07:58
bur[n] erat least until another day07:58
bur[n] erno it would, but I was thinking I could bang this out in 20 minutes ;)07:58
bur[n] erI'm off to a concert at Red Rocks... thanks for the help though07:58
ScottKbur[n] er: Additionally it's better to work within the packaging system (i.e. your own .deb is better than just using distutils).07:58
ScottKbur[n] er: If you had done this a few times, you probably could.  The first time will take longer.07:58
bur[n] eryeah, I'll be back sometime soon though07:59
ScottKbur[n] er: If your package will work on Dapper +, you can get it into the Gutsy repostitories and then request a backport.07:59
ScottK!REVU| bur[n] er07:59
ubotubur[n] er: REVU is a web-based tool to give people who have worked on Ubuntu packages a chance to "put their packages out there" for other people to look at and comment on in a structured manner. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU07:59
bur[n] erI'm not worried about that so much.  Even a .deb that people could double-click would be all I'm after07:59
ScottKYou'll want to into that.07:59
ScottKYou'll want to look into that to get into the repos.08:00
bur[n] erexaile and pidgin are successful and they're not in the repos 08:00
bur[n] erthanks again08:00
ScottKbur[n] er: Once you have a proper package made up, getting it into the repos is actually quite easy.08:00
ScottKexaile is in the repos.08:00
bur[n] eroh08:00
ScottKpigdin is in the repos for Gutsy.08:00
ScottKAnd pigdin is just gaim which is in the repos.08:01
bur[n] erok, bad examples.  In any event, I'll be back!08:01
=== bur[n] er idles
ScottKbur[n] er: In fact, a new exaile was just uploaded today.  I'm waiting for it to build and then I'm going to try and round up people to check and see which bugs are fixed.  Do you use exaile?08:02
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ScottKGood $TIME_OF_DAY calc.08:03
jussi01ScottK: do you know of any qt native browsers other than knoq?08:03
jussi01konq even?08:03
=== ScottK hasn't investigate.
jussi01I just removed konq, an now I want to replace firefox with something native...08:07
=== ScottK actually likes konq.
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jussi01I dont, its slow and annoying...08:09
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tsmithepersia has me in a twist re compatibility between gpl2 and cc-sa09:07
tsmithesurely if the packaging is gpl2, and the package is cc-sa, then that is ok?09:07
tsmithe(as the packaging and package do not necessarily link together)09:07
ScottKtsmithe: Why not just make the packaging cc-sa?09:08
=== ScottK always just licenses the packaging with the same license as the package.
ScottKThat way there's no confusion.09:08
tsmitheScottK, yes, that was my idea. but in the case i cannot contact the original packager, am i allowed to adopt and change the licence?09:08
=== jekil2 is now known as jekil
ScottKNo.  All you can do is license your mods to the package differently.09:09
tsmithethought so :)09:09
tsmitheso that leaves me back with the original question09:09
ScottKWhat happened to the original packager?09:10
tsmithehe's not been around for a while due to personal issues, and so i've (temporarily) adopted the package[s]  for ubuntustudio so that we can get a move on :)09:11
tsmithei guess i could give it a shot and try and get his permission for a licence change09:11
ScottKWho is it?09:12
tsmithe"Janne Jokitalo (AstralJava) <janne.jokitalo@dnainternet.net>"09:13
ScottKThe simplest solution would be to ask and get permission.09:15
ScottKBe sure to note that in debian/changelog.09:15
tsmithei've just sent off an email09:16
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tsmithei'm doing similarly for ubuntustudio-sounds' contents licence09:16
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ScottKSounds good.09:17
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jekili have a trouble with cdbs, any hint? http://rafb.net/p/WsTVCK82.html please10:34
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geserjekil: 404 Not Found10:45
jekilgeser: sorry http://rafb.net/p/Lot1i329.html10:47
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geserjekil: it's a python software. See how other python packages use cdbs10:53
geserit looks like it uses python distutils for setup and cdbs has a class for it10:54
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ScottKIn that case it should be dead simple.10:54
jekilgeser: i use it10:54
jussi01jekil: heres some useful docs if you dont have them already: https://perso.duckcorp.org/duck/cdbs-doc/cdbs-doc.xhtml10:54
ScottKjekil: Paste your debian/rules file.10:54
geserthen I wonder why it looks for configure10:55
jekilhttp://rafb.net/p/7NxyIj32.html my rules10:56
jekiljussi01: i know it10:56
jekili can imagine why this search for configure10:56
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geserdoes it also happen if you comment out the kde class?10:59
jekilgeser: yes10:59
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ScottKjekil: Not sure if if would make any difference, but you have DEB_PYTHON_SYSTEM := pysupport, on my packages that work, I have DEB_PYTHON_SYSTEM=pysupport with no spaces.11:03
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ScottKjekil: I'd also suggest looking at the setup.py for the program to make sure it's not doing something odd.11:03
jekilScottK: thanks. now i check11:04
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jekilScottK: same error :( setup.py is clean11:21
jekili think the error is raised from cdbs11:22
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RainCTa little off-topic question if you allow me. if I'm doing a Python application, and want to provide a script to install, uninstall and purge, what is better? create a custom script or can/should that be done with a makefile?11:23
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KmosRainCT: makefile i think11:40
Kmosdo the autoclean stuff11:41
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