[02:56] <BFTD> @schedule los_angeles
[02:56] <ubotu> Schedule for America/Los_Angeles: 04 Jul 07:00: Kubuntu Developers | 04 Jul 13:00: Edubuntu | 05 Jul 13:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Jul 08:00: Kernel Team | 11 Jul 05:00: Edubuntu | 12 Jul 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[08:05] <Lure> @schedule ljubljana
[08:05] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 04 Jul 16:00: Kubuntu Developers | 04 Jul 22:00: Edubuntu | 05 Jul 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Jul 17:00: Kernel Team | 11 Jul 14:00: Edubuntu | 12 Jul 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[01:55] <allee> @now
[01:55] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: July 04 2007, 11:55:15 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 2 hours 4 minutes
[04:00] <Hobbsee> ***  Welcome to this month's Kubuntu Meeting ****
[04:00] <Riddell> I have no https access, if someone can paste the agenda that would be cool
[04:01] <Hobbsee> #
[04:01] <Hobbsee> How should we handle programs that need to install codecs? Do we want to just install kubuntu-restricted-extras, or do we want to patch every application so that it installs the required codecs with a dialog from the user?
[04:01] <Hobbsee> #
[04:01] <Hobbsee> The amarok version of this is quite buggy - it breaks if you've disabled multiverse for some reason, and seems to crash on some systems.
[04:01] <Hobbsee> #
[04:01] <Hobbsee> KDE debian/ dirs in Bzr- how do we want to handle this?
[04:01] <Hobbsee> #
[04:01] <Hobbsee> No one has seemed to have actioned the points Sho_ (konversation) raised in the last meeting - who wants to do this? [Above 4 by Hobbsee] 
[04:01] <Hobbsee> and tonio wants to discuss media patches
[04:03] <Riddell> coming live from Akademy 2007 here in (genuinely) sunny Glasgow
[04:03] <Hobbsee> gasp.  sunny?
[04:03] <Riddell> who's here?
[04:03] <Tonio_> yop
[04:04] <_StefanS_> _StefanS_ is Stefan Skotte
[04:04] <dthacker> dthacker is Dave Thacker
[04:04] <Hobbsee> Any membership candidates?
[04:04] <Hobbsee> doesnt appear to be any listed on the wiki
[04:05] <Riddell> council is me, Lure, Tonio_, Hobbsee, nixternal (if he's alive)
[04:05] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: o you're doing the meeting now ? cool :)
[04:05] <Riddell> Hobbsee: what's our first item?
[04:06] <Hobbsee> Next meeting will probably be Wednesday 1 August, 2100 UTC or so.  Any objections?
[04:06] <Lure> and kwwii if around?
[04:06] <jsgotangco> ahh ah kubuntu council meeting nice
[04:06] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: okay for me
[04:06] <Hobbsee> hi spam
[04:06] <Hobbsee> cool.  will email the list, etc, pending uni timetable
[04:06] <Riddell> fine with me
[04:06] <Hobbsee> onto the agenda of doom...
[04:07] <Hobbsee> Okay, first point - if we've got kubuntu stuff that you want to see done for a particular tribe, please tell me, and i can milestone it, and poke you over it if you dont get it done.
[04:07] <Hobbsee> ditto for anything that you want to get thru a freeze
[04:07] <Hobbsee> (assuming the plans dont change)
[04:07] <Riddell> on a simliar note I'm an archive admin so you can try and poke me for new processing (if I havn't already touched the package)
[04:07] <Riddell> and moving to main/universe
[04:07] <Riddell> etc
[04:07] <Hobbsee> that too
[04:08] <Lure> Riddell: great!
[04:08] <Hobbsee> *** How should we handle programs that need to install codecs? Do we want to just install kubuntu-restricted-extras, or do we want to patch every application so that it installs the required codecs with a dialog from the user?
[04:08] <Hobbsee> We now have a kubuntu-restricted-extras package, which contains the main codecs needed on a kubuntu system
[04:08] <Riddell> kubuntu-restricted-extras has java, lots of people don't want that for playing mp3s
[04:08] <allee> about codecs: do we have developer time to inplement decicated codec loading?  A volunteer
[04:08] <Tonio_> Riddell: then we should take care to get kio-umountwrapper to main :) the MIR is done, just reviewing is needed
[04:08] <Hobbsee> Riddell: that's why they're as removes
[04:08] <Hobbsee> Riddell: er, recommends
[04:08] <Hobbsee> unfortunately, i'ts currently broken.
[04:08] <Riddell> Tonio_: that's will pitti/kees/iwj only
[04:08] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: OK, will poke.
[04:09] <Tonio_> Riddell: oki
[04:09] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: one thing I'd like to see fixed for the next tribe is adept
[04:09] <mhb> allee: I'm afraid we don't
[04:09] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: the repo manager doesn't work anymore
[04:09] <Riddell> Hobbsee: what else needs this added?  just kaffeine?
[04:10] <allee> mhb: so, makes not much sense to decide to patch every app ;)
[04:10] <Hobbsee> Riddell: amarok, kaffeine, k3b, ...
[04:10] <Tonio_> Riddell: kmplayer too
[04:10] <Riddell> Hobbsee: do we have a .desktop file in app-install-data for kubuntu-restricted-extras?
[04:10] <Hobbsee> also konqueror, for the java, etc.
[04:10] <Riddell> Tonio_: won't be in main for long?
[04:10] <Jucato> btw, I think there were some people having problems with the script in amarok to install the codecs after the release of feisty... not sure if anyone filed bugs for it
[04:10] <allee> can't we switch to gstreamer?  AFAIU then we get codec loading almost for free?
[04:10] <Hobbsee> Riddell: i doubt it.  if we dont for ubuntu-restricted-extras either
[04:10] <Lure> Tonio_: kmplayer is universe now?
[04:10] <Hobbsee> Jucato: that's next
[04:10] <Tonio_> Riddell: it'll stay in main, I guess forever, I'll explain why later if you want
[04:10] <Riddell> Hobbsee: I thought there was one
[04:10] <Jucato> Hobbsee: oops sorry..
[04:11] <Hobbsee> Riddell: not sure, tbh.
[04:11] <Tonio_> Riddell: we cannot use kaffeine in konq by default, which saddens me soooooooooooo much
[04:11] <Hobbsee> Riddell: will have to look
[04:11] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: why?
[04:11] <Hobbsee> Jucato: no problem
[04:11] <Tonio_> Hobbsee, Riddell: because of the plugin identification
[04:11] <Riddell> Tonio_: how not?
[04:11] <Tonio_> kaffeine ident itself as kaffeine media player plugin
[04:12] <Tonio_> Riddell: kmplayer is able to ident as the standard windows plugin used for this kind of source
[04:12] <mhb> allee: I agree with you, I had some talks with kaffeine upstream, they might consider a feature like that, but for KDE4 kaffeine
[04:12] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: will come back to adept
[04:12] <Riddell> Tonio_: interesting
[04:12] <Tonio_> Riddell: and a lot of website are doing plugin detection to display the video
[04:12] <Tonio_> Riddell: I tried to patch kaffeine to had this, but it didn't work, or only partially
[04:13] <Tonio_> Riddell: means the identification worked, but not any website could detect the "windows media player plugin" despite I could see it
[04:13] <Tonio_> Riddell: we need to discuss this with kaffeine upstream
[04:13] <Tonio_> and then replace kmplayer :)
[04:13] <Hobbsee> The main questoin here is, do we want to patch each app to use each particular required codec separately, or do we want to jus tgrab k-r-e once
[04:13] <Riddell> Hobbsee: without developers willing to do this I don't see much we can do
[04:13] <Hobbsee> Riddell: where this == ?
[04:13] <Tonio_> so beeing stable is not enought for default inclusion, as it'll fail on a lot of websites
[04:13] <Tonio_> who try to detect "windows media player plugin"
[04:14] <mhb> grabbing k-r-e would be logical if there were only codecs and not stuff like java
[04:14] <Riddell> mhb: is k-r-e install suitable for restricted-manager?
[04:14] <waylandbill> I had amarok crash (hang) loading mp3 codecs this morning. Wasn't able to reproduce so I didn't file a bug.
[04:14] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: remember the crappy "in the work" patch ? it was because of that problem :)
[04:14] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: in the work?
[04:14] <Hobbsee> Riddell: well, it's a metapackage.  it's not a GUI
[04:14] <mhb> Riddell: restricted-manager is for drivers/firmware only
[04:14] <Hobbsee> someone's coding a restricted-manager though.
[04:14] <Tonio_> the patch I shouldn't have upload because it caused a lot of issues ? :) you fixed that upload
[04:14] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: oh, that one.
[04:15] <Tonio_> yep, the patch was an attempt for the plugin identification, which worked 60%, but I couldn't find why the websites couldn't detect it
[04:15] <allee> Riddell: didn't the ubuntu guys use a patched gstreamer for codec reinstall?  So when we switch to gstreamer too ..?
[04:15] <Riddell> allee: yes, absolutely
[04:16] <mhb> err, is switching to gstreamer something that has been discussed?
[04:16] <allee> Tonio_: how's gstreamer working with the kde apps?
[04:16] <Tonio_> mhb: dozens :)
[04:16] <Riddell> mhb: no go for kde 3, kde 4 sure once phonon has the plugin
[04:16] <Tonio_> allee: kaffeine : not as good as xine, but works
[04:16] <Riddell> but remember gstreamer doesn't do dvd menus and I don't know how good the w32codecs support is
[04:16] <Tonio_> allee: amarok : no gst support :'(
[04:16] <Tonio_> kmplayer : very nice support
[04:17] <allee> okay so we have to wait for KDE4
[04:17] <Riddell> allee: yes
[04:17] <mhb> Riddell: I wouldn't vote for gstreamer if it meant losing features
[04:17] <Tonio_> allee: yep, wait for phonon
[04:18] <Hobbsee> Riddell: i guess i'm more interested in finding if there are any developers who are interested in doing this
[04:18] <Riddell> Hobbsee: should we install all of k-r-e with amarok?
[04:18] <allee> In this light the only workable solutions would be to down load k-r-e
[04:18] <Hobbsee> Riddell: when the recommends are working, sure.
[04:18] <Hobbsee> at the moment, it's an empty package :)
[04:18] <mhb> Hobbsee: if we want to download k-r-e, I'd try to make the package as small as possible
[04:18] <mhb> Hobbsee: how big it is, with java and all?
[04:18] <Hobbsee> mhb: that's why i only left the core codecs in
[04:18] <Hobbsee> not sure
[04:19] <Hobbsee> sarah@LongPointyStick:~$ apt-cache show kubuntu-restricted-extras | grep Recommends
[04:19] <Hobbsee> Recommends: flashplugin-nonfree, sun-java6-plugin, libxine1-ffmpeg, libdvdread3, libk3b2-mp3, liblame0, unrar
[04:19] <mhb> Hobbsee: is the java still in there?
[04:19] <Hobbsee> yes
[04:19] <Hobbsee> i dont know, size-wise
[04:19] <Riddell> we need to move on
[04:19] <Hobbsee> Riddell: true, but the next issue depends on this
[04:19] <Riddell> I don't think anyone has expertese/time to work on this, it involves playing with upstream in difficult ways
[04:20] <mhb> I'm against installing java without the user requesting it
[04:20] <allee> jave -> suggests :)
[04:20] <mhb> Hobbsee: can't we do a kubuntu-restricted-codecs metapackage or something?
[04:20] <Hobbsee> mhb: that's what it is
[04:21] <mhb> Hobbsee: java isn't a codec :o)
[04:21] <Riddell> I'd say we get a .desktop file in app-install-data
[04:21] <Riddell> that way it's easy for all to install
[04:21] <Hobbsee> Riddell: sounds sane.  which requires me finding out how to write one.  but OK
[04:21] <Tonio_> Riddell: ++
[04:22] <Hobbsee> in that case, what do we want to do about the amarok install mp3 script?
[04:22] <Hobbsee> it's in bash, and seems to fail for a fair few people
[04:22] <mhb> Riddell:  that means = don't patch anything?
[04:22] <Riddell> Hobbsee: just add and install somewhere and it should get picked up on upload
[04:22] <Riddell> Hobbsee: keep it
[04:22] <Riddell> mhb: not unless people are willing to do it
[04:22] <Hobbsee> it doesnt account for if a user has disabled multiverse, and seems generally not-robust
[04:23] <Lure> Hobbsee: multiverse/universe is enabled by default since feisty, right?
[04:23] <Riddell> Lure: yes
[04:23] <Hobbsee> Lure: it is, but some users will disable it
[04:23] <Hobbsee> Lure: what disturbs me more is how it just seems to hang amarok, etc.
[04:23] <Hobbsee> there's a tribe 3 bug on it, unless Riddell removed the tribe 3 milestone completely while i wasnt there
[04:23] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: I'd say it differently
[04:23] <Riddell> not I
[04:24] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: how so?
[04:24] <Tonio_> Riddell, Hobbsee: who will disable multiverse ?
[04:24] <Riddell> Freedom Lovers!
[04:24] <Hobbsee> users.  some.  for some unknown reason
[04:24] <Hobbsee> and the freedom lovers
[04:24] <Riddell> (and people who want support)
[04:24] <Tonio_> Riddell: aka geeks
[04:24] <Hobbsee> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers/+members is the relevant bug
[04:24] <Tonio_> Riddell: and a geek doesn't use amarok's script to install it's codecs :)
[04:24] <Tonio_> Riddell: nore has mp3 files on his computer
[04:24] <Hobbsee> my point is that this should not randomly fail, and it should not up and die fi they have mutliverse disabled
[04:25] <Tonio_> Riddell: and btw doesn't use app-install/adept
[04:25] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: sure they do - it comes up automatically if they try to play a mp3 for some reason.  if they downloaded one
[04:25] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: okay
[04:25] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: you are a freedom lover
[04:25] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: you hate proprietary formats, so you disable multiverse
[04:25] <Hobbsee> i prefer my system to work, tyvm.
[04:25] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: would you play an mp3 file then ?
[04:25] <kwwii> for normal users, when you click the button it should "just work"
[04:25] <Jucato> hm... is this about the mp3 script in amarok?
[04:26] <Tonio_> probably not, and if it doesn't work, consider it is your fault
[04:26] <allee> Hobbsee: wouldn't if ! apt-cache policy <pkgs> then; exit; fi # fix it?
[04:26] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: if i'd not realised that it was a mp3, or something, probably
[04:26] <dthacker> Jucato: yes
[04:26] <Lure> allee: exactly
[04:26] <Hobbsee> Jucato: yes
[04:26] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: then you are a geek, you changed settings, that's your problem :)
[04:26] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: granted, but the scritp should not be that flimsy that it dies.
[04:26] <Jucato> iirc, libxine-extracodecs just points to libxine1-ffmpeg in main since feisty right? why does it need multiverse to be enabled?
[04:26] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: agree on that point
[04:27] <Tonio_> Jucato: it doesn't
[04:27] <Hobbsee> it seems it particularly dies when you say "no"
[04:27] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: which is a problem
[04:27] <Hobbsee> Jucato: oh, point
[04:27] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: exactly
[04:27] <Jucato> Tonio_:
[04:27] <Jucato> er..
[04:27] <Jucato> http://packages.ubuntu.com/feisty/libs/libxine-extracodecs
[04:27] <Lure> Jucato: correct - we can have amarok mp3 by defaul
[04:28] <Tonio_> Lure: no we can't
[04:28] <Jucato> er it's in universe lol sorry
[04:28] <Riddell> Hobbsee: why is this milestoned for tribe 3?  it can wait until feature freeze and we're in bug mode no?
[04:28] <Tonio_> Lure: I already discussed with -devel guys on that point
[04:28] <Hobbsee> Riddell: sure it can, but it's to remind me, and preferably get it fixed sooner than that, so people test.
[04:28] <Riddell> Hobbsee: I'm happy to fix it but not until after feature freeze
[04:28] <Tonio_> Lure: it is in main for technical reasons, but we can't ship it by default becauseof licencing issues
[04:28] <Tonio_> Lure: in fact that shouldn't be in main :)
[04:29] <Hobbsee> Riddell: OK, will assign it to you
[04:29] <Hobbsee> Riddell: excellent, thankyou :)
[04:29] <Riddell> groovy
[04:29] <Riddell> next item?
[04:29] <Hobbsee> *** No one has seemed to have actioned the points Sho_ (konversation) raised in the last meeting - who wants to do this?
[04:30] <Hobbsee> at least, the k-d-s settings havent been changed
[04:30] <Riddell> oh, ellen gave a non commital answer but seemed to say that listview at the side was better than tabs
[04:30] <Hobbsee> right
[04:30] <Riddell> as did johnflux another occational konversation developer
[04:30] <Riddell> imbrandon did say he did the other changes
[04:30] <Hobbsee> i seem to remember we agreed to the other points though, which still seem to be in there?
[04:30] <Tonio_> Riddell: talking about that, I don't want to switch back to the default theme
[04:30] <Riddell> but imbrandon seems to not be 100% reliable currently
[04:31] <Tonio_> Riddell: we probably want a "human readeable theme" by default, which the default konversation isn't
[04:31] <Hobbsee> Riddell: hwo does imbrandon fit into this, sorry?
[04:31] <Tonio_> Riddell: I wouldn't be inclined to change this
[04:31] <Riddell> Hobbsee: he told me once he had made the required changes and was going to upload
[04:31] <Riddell> ages ago this was
[04:31] <Hobbsee> ah right
[04:31] <Jucato> but the other suggestion was that we could probably help in making a better nicklist theme
[04:31] <Hobbsee> it seems that he hasnt, so someone else needs to
[04:32] <Tonio_> Jucato: if we can find any better, okay, but not the default konversation is shipped wuth
[04:32] <Tonio_> wth
[04:32] <Hobbsee> Jucato: true.  i suspect kwwii's far too busy for it
[04:32] <Tonio_> rahhhhhhhh !! with
[04:32] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: can you remind me what is the problem with the current one ?
[04:32] <Jucato> Tonio_: yeah. I don't like it either and have continually "discussed" that topic with Sho_ :)
[04:32] <Jucato> Tonio_: iirc it was the quality of that theme
[04:32] <Tonio_> Jucato: it is simple, nice looking and icons are explicit to what they mean
[04:33] <Tonio_> what is the problem with it ? seriously ?
[04:33] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: i dont have the direct link for sho_'s complaints about it
[04:33] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: in my opinion, there is the upstream work and the distro work
[04:33] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: this is true.  but upstream says "we want you to use this.  only".  as for why they havent removed the others then, i have no idea...
[04:33] <Tonio_> it is not the first time guy from konversation are complaining about the fact we're changing the defualt settings, and that honnestly drives me nuts
[04:34] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: they make things configurable, we configure them
[04:34] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: we respect the gpl, that's it
[04:34] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: feel free to take it up with Sho_.
[04:34] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: if they don't want us to 'implement' it as we want, they can do proprietary software
[04:34] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: no point doing it now, as Sho_ isnt here.  he's on #konversation now though
[04:34] <Jucato> to be fair, upstream's concern is that problems in Konversation introduced in Kubuntu usually gets thrown back at them
[04:34] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: especially as we're not changing it a lot
[04:35] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: can you imaging how much more are we twinking konqueror for example ?
[04:35] <Hobbsee> Jucato: true that.  which is why i'ts improtant to actually check k-d-s changes, which is still on my todo list
[04:35] <imbrandon> honestly sho isnt on the kubuntu team and we follow the gpl
[04:35] <Tonio_> Jucato: that's a problem with ALL free softwares
[04:35] <Jucato> Tonio_: "* Kubuntu has selected a different default nicklist theme  from the set of themes we ship with Konversation. While  we continue to ship that theme for legacy reasons, we be-  lieve it is graphically poorly done and would prefer it  if Kubuntu switched back to our default. Alternatively,  we'd certainly look forward to artwork contributions  from Kubuntu's artwork community if it has other things  in mind. In particular, the issues
[04:35] <Jucato> with the chosen theme  are that the colour palette doesn't fit into either KDE  or Kubuntu defaults, and that the serif typography looks  outdated. - form Sho_
[04:35] <Tonio_> Jucato: so what should we do ? stopping implementations ?
[04:35] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: true that.  i'm still not exactly convinced that's a good idea.
[04:35] <Tonio_> okay let's stop kubuntu then, no need of a distro
[04:36] <Jucato> Tonio_: I don't necessarily agree with some of the suggestions (like the nicklist theme). but after all, they are just suggestions :)
[04:36] <allee> Tonio_: I don't remember details.  But Sho_ may have a point.  We listen, then agree or not.
[04:36] <imbrandon> Jucato, thats our problems not thiers, they want to be involved in kubuntu then invite them to take the time to contrib, instead of bitching from afar ( upstream )
[04:36] <Jucato> :)
[04:36] <Tonio_> allee: I'm not against sho expecially, he may be right this time, but as imbrandon and I already had problems in the past....
[04:36] <Hobbsee> Jucato: did you have that website link?
[04:36] <Tonio_> I remember imbrandon getting mad on the channel because of this
[04:37] <Jucato> Hobbsee: http://konversation.kde.org/kubuntu-issues.txt
[04:37] <Hobbsee> Jucato: thanks
[04:37] <Jucato> (it was in the minutes)
[04:37] <Tonio_> the sysray one.......... argh !
[04:37] <Jucato> heh :)
[04:37] <Hobbsee> yay, be rid of the systray!
[04:37] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: NO
[04:37] <Tonio_> ;)
[04:37] <Hobbsee> say it with me Riddell, "system tray icons are EVIL!!!"
[04:38] <Riddell> oh yes
[04:38] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: konversation is exactly the kind of application for which systray is usefull
[04:38] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: you open it in the morning and then wait, as you do with kopete
[04:38] <Lure> Tonio_: fully afree
[04:38] <Hobbsee> Riddell: we could just outvote him... *g*
[04:38] <Lure> agree even
[04:38] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: all chat/email clients usually have systray enable by default, because you don't run them for 10 minutes only
[04:38] <Tonio_> it is the kind of apps that runs everytime in the background
[04:39] <imbrandon> honestly i'm of the opinion that if we just package vanalla upstream packages there is no reason for kubuntu then, anyhow i am at work and cant constructively contribute to the convo right now
[04:39] <kwwii> Tonio_: geeks just start a thousand programs and leave them all running
[04:39] <allee> Tonio_: minimizing it would serve the same purpose
[04:39] <claydoh> icon
[04:39] <Tonio_> allee: no, certainly not
[04:39] <Tonio_> allee: cause it'll be merged with the all programs you are running
[04:40] <Tonio_> allee: systray isolates background based apps, like kopete, knetworkmanager etc......
[04:40] <Tonio_> allee: ALL chat based apps run in the systray
[04:40] <Tonio_> allee: o reason to change that
[04:40] <Tonio_> allee: and btw everyone is free to change the default settings, it is just a matter of default
[04:40] <allee> Tonio_: to be honest: I agree with you
[04:40] <Tonio_> we're not removing the functionnality right ?
[04:40] <Jucato> why don't we justify having a systray icon based on its (intended) purpose instead of just saying that all other chat apps do it? for example, it serves as notification (which is the original intention of the system tray anyway)
[04:41] <Tonio_> I'll tell you something, I don't use it in the systray, but I'm really convicinced, that's the way the average people are waiting to use it
[04:41] <Tonio_> and I can argue on every point in the list....
[04:41] <kwwii> if we get rid of that one we should also get rid of the kontact, basket, and korganizer ones as well
[04:42] <Lure> Tonio_: do you knwo about c++ patch for server setting - this is the only one I agree it may be too much from upstream
[04:42] <Tonio_> but well let's not waste time on this, I propose that we discuss together about what to do on -devel channel, let's apply the wanted changes, and write a nice response to the konversation team
[04:42] <Tonio_> Lure: which one ? to switch to irc.ubuntu.com by default ?
[04:42] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: mailing list is even better
[04:42] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: sure
[04:42] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: we do it in konversationrc and in the c++ patch
[04:42] <allee> Tonio_: how about copying the text file to the wiki and adding your points.  I'll do so too.   Just collecting pro/cons.  NOOOO flaming.  Then we can decide in next mmeetingn
[04:42] <Lure> Tonio_: yes, why patch?
[04:43] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: what about people that use konversation on gnome ? :)
[04:43] <Tonio_> that's why we are doing the fix twice
[04:43] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: then they really want to join #ubuntu
[04:43] <Lure> Tonio_: we should not care about them
[04:43] <Hobbsee> or are just confused individuals
[04:43] <Tonio_> Lure: I can remove that patch
[04:43] <Lure> hi seele
[04:43] <Tonio_> Lure: to be honnest I was asked to patch, of course my first action has been to do that in kds
[04:43] <Hobbsee> in which case we want to send them to #white-padded-room *g*
[04:43] <seele> hallo
[04:44] <Tonio_> can't we discuss this later ? it'll take hours to debate everything ;)
[04:44] <Riddell> let's move on, we can do the non-controvertial changes and debate the others at leisure
[04:44] <Riddell> Hobbsee: seele is here for membership
[04:44] <Hobbsee> way cool.  welcome seele!
[04:44] <seele> hello
[04:44] <Riddell> I'll do the changes to konversation if nobody else has by the time akademy is over
[04:44] <Tonio_> Riddell: I can do it
[04:44] <Riddell> seele: able to give yourself a couple line introduction?
[04:45] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: we should probably figure out Bzr stuff elsewhere, and provide a solution to the rest of the people.  as long as they actually read the mailing list, and obey it.
[04:45] <Tonio_> Riddell: but I'd like that we debate once and for all on what to change/remove
[04:45] <Riddell> Tonio_: ta
[04:45] <Hobbsee> but seele's membership... :)
[04:45] <Tonio_> Riddell, Hobbsee: added to my todo
[04:45] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: great, OK
[04:45] <seele> what do i say?
[04:45] <Riddell> seele: what you've done in the ubuntu world
[04:45] <seele> ah
[04:45] <seele> well most of my work has been in the capacity of kde
[04:46] <seele> i participated in UDS last fall and helped address some usability/interface stuff
[04:46] <seele> i also started working on a GUI with mhb for GRUB (which hasnt been released for technical reasons)
[04:46] <seele> also, this past spring i conducted user testing on the kubuntu version of ubiquity
[04:46] <seele> and just recently provided the results to the community
[04:47] <seele> i think working with kubuntu is a great way for me to work with other open source projects and maximize the time i can spend on kde :)
[04:47] <Riddell> evand will pick that up, probably after freature freeze
[04:47] <seele> plus kubuntu is just the bestest distro ever, so why not?
[04:47] <seele> ok
[04:47] <Riddell> :)
[04:47] <imbrandon> :)
[04:47] <Jucato> :)
[04:47] <claydoh> :)
[04:47] <Riddell> any questions for seele?
[04:47] <Dimple> :)
[04:48] <dthacker> yes, it is!
[04:48] <Riddell> I know her well enough from conferences
[04:48] <Lure> I would like to point out that ubiquity usability report is really great
[04:48] <Hobbsee> seele: will you be in boston+1?
[04:48] <Jucato> are non-council members allowed to ask? :)
[04:48] <Lure> I really hope some improvements will be done for gutsy
[04:48] <Riddell> Jucato: of course
[04:48] <seele> Hobbsee: i didnt know about boston+1 but probably since its in my time zone ;)
[04:49] <Hobbsee> seele: boston+1 is in an unknown location, isnt it?  :P
[04:49] <seele> oh right
[04:49] <seele> lol
[04:49] <Riddell> Hobbsee: in or around MIT uni mid-november I think
[04:49] <Hobbsee> Riddell: boston*+1*
[04:49] <Hobbsee> as in, the one after boston.
[04:49] <Jucato> seele: are you considering making a general usability review of Kubuntu? :)
[04:49] <Riddell> oh, no idea
[04:49] <kwwii> actually, it is in the first week of november
[04:49] <Hobbsee> Jucato: yes
[04:49] <seele> Jucato: well.. it depends on what you means of "Kubuntu" because most of it is KDE
[04:50] <Riddell> Jucato: that would need to be a KDE job (and since seele has been doing KDE 4 HIG...)
[04:50] <seele> Jucato: i generally have a rule that if i dont think my work will be considered (let alone implemented) ill use my time on something else
[04:50] <seele> yeah
[04:50] <seele> all of KDE is a lot of work
[04:50] <Jucato> seele: well, specifically the Kubuntu-specific ones/changes (like Konqueror? :)
[04:50] <seele> thats what ive been trying to do for the past three years with them, hehe
[04:50] <seele> Jucato: sure, if someone asks for it
[04:50] <Jucato> :)
[04:50] <Riddell> konqueror in KDE 4 is a lot like in kubuntu now
[04:51] <Riddell> so, let's vote on seele
[04:51] <Tonio_> seele: +1 for me
[04:51] <Riddell> +1
[04:51] <Hobbsee> +1 for me, no questoin
[04:51] <Jucato> (+3 from me, if I had voting powers)
[04:51] <imbrandon> +25 from me ( but i dont count on this vote hehe )
[04:51] <Lure> +1 from me based on great work until now
[04:51] <Riddell> kwwii, nixternal, allee?
[04:52] <kwwii> +1 from me
[04:52] <jsgotangco> +1 for a super CC vote (if that counts)
[04:52] <Riddell> well, that's enough, congratulations seele on Kubuntu (and also Ubuntu) membership
[04:52] <seele> thanks
[04:52] <Tonio_> seele: congrats :)
[04:52] <imbrandon> ( seele now i can legitly add your blog to the planet , lol )
[04:52] <Jucato> congrats seele! :)
[04:52] <Riddell> imbrandon: please do
[04:52] <imbrandon> congrats :)
[04:52] <seele> soo.. now what? do i need to so anything?
[04:52] <kwwii> conrgratulation, now get to work!
[04:52] <seele> kwwii: lol
[04:52] <kwwii> :-)
[04:52] <Riddell> no, someone will add you to the kubuntu-members team
[04:53] <cynics> seele: congrats
[04:53] <seele> ok
[04:53] <Riddell> Hobbsee: next item?
[04:53] <seele> cynics: thanks
[04:53] <imbrandon> and your lp-id@kubuntu.org email should start working soon after
[04:53] <asac> seele: congrats ... though i am not really involved in kubuntu ;)
[04:53] <Hobbsee> seriously...someone's just requested a sync for apt and adept.  *shakes head*
[04:53] <seele> asac: thanks
[04:53] <Hobbsee> colin just killed them over it
[04:53] <Hobbsee> Tonio_:
[04:53] <Riddell> Hobbsee: adept does need merged
[04:53] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: the multimedia packages?
[04:53] <Hobbsee> Riddell: true that.
[04:53] <Tonio_> okay, what should we do with the /media vs media:/ patch ?
[04:53] <seele> ok.. sorry to run, but i have to get on the road to my parents (US holiday today)
[04:54] <seele> thanks everyone, talk to you soon!
[04:54] <Hobbsee> have fun, seele!
[04:54] <Tonio_> there are still LOTS of issues against those patch, most of them probably won't be fixed
[04:54] <jsgotangco> happy independence day
[04:54] <Tonio_> simple example : on my laptop, without any usb key and cd in :
[04:54] <Tonio_> http://tonio.homelinux.org/temp/capture14.png
[04:54] <Tonio_> on the left : /media -> ugly and confusing, missing things (hard drives)
[04:55] <Tonio_> on the right : media:/ complete, showing what's needed, and "human readable"
[04:55] <Tonio_> also, there are lots of issues arrount the desktop icons I could describe
[04:55] <Tonio_> those patches have always create more issues than they resolve
[04:56] <Tonio_> and btw, all  documentation you might find on the web about kde and media things don't work for kubuntu, witch is also a problem
[04:56] <Tonio_> I wold propose to get rid of that patch, as most of those issues aren't fixable, confirmed by Sime
[04:56] <imbrandon> or will be fixed with dolphin in 4
[04:57] <imbrandon> not that that helps now
[04:57] <Tonio_> about the screenshot, don't forget there is no cd of usb key on my laptop, which is a non sense
[04:58] <Riddell> simon isn't around the akademy labs just now
[04:58] <Riddell> I can talk to him about this when he gets back
[04:58] <Riddell> but I'm ok with removing them if that makes things better
[04:58] <Tonio_> Riddell: sure, but as I said, I already discussed wit him on that point and there is no way to fix /media
[04:58] <Riddell> it's more a polite thing to discuss before removing his hard work :)
[04:59] <Tonio_> the only fixable part is the desktop icons, but even on that point there are strange issues, as for example the icon sometimes disapears to switch back to folder one, which makes the device unmountable
[04:59] <Tonio_> Riddell: of course
[04:59] <Riddell> next item?
[04:59] <Tonio_> Riddell: his work is a matter of 3 patches, my proposal is to remove one of them only :)
[04:59] <Tonio_> Riddell: the other part of the simplicitation he has done is nice
[05:00] <Riddell> Tonio_: I'm sure he'll be back soon, you, me and him can discuss in a bit
[05:00] <Tonio_> oki
[05:00] <Riddell> Hobbsee: what's next?
[05:00] <Hobbsee> Riddell: discussions on packages in bzr, but i havent spoken to Tonio_ about this first, so am happy to leave it.
[05:00] <Hobbsee> anyone got anything else to bring up?
[05:00] <Riddell> yes
[05:00] <Riddell> UDS, who wants to come?
[05:01] <imbrandon> boston ?
[05:01] <Riddell> yes
[05:01] <Hobbsee> Riddell: boston?  not me, i'm afraid, although i suspect i'll be needing to anyway
[05:01] <eagles0513875> i got something i would like to say once u guys r finished
[05:01] <imbrandon> i had planned on it as the next release cycle i will have MUCH MUCH more time
[05:01] <Tonio_> Riddell: I'd like to especially since talking about an LTS release, but there is no chance for me I guess :'(
[05:01] <Hobbsee> Riddell: boston+1, i want to come.
[05:01] <Riddell> we're biased towards those in the americas I believe
[05:01] <imbrandon> if i can
[05:01] <imbrandon> i had planned on it as the next release cycle i will have MUCH MUCH more time
[05:01] <imbrandon> err yea
[05:01] <Riddell> imbrandon: ok, I'll put you down
[05:01] <eagles0513875> hey
[05:01] <Hobbsee> Riddell: please put Tonio_ in my place, if you can.  he does need to be there.
[05:02] <kwwii> have we invited seele?
[05:02] <Riddell> kwwii: we should :)
[05:02] <kwwii> I'll do that then
[05:02] <Riddell> ta
[05:02] <Hobbsee> Riddell: how many kubuntu places do you have?
[05:02] <Hobbsee> oh wait, she counts as KDE :P
[05:02] <Riddell> kwwii: no official invites at this stage as I understand, just asking if people are interested
[05:02] <Riddell> Hobbsee: no idea how many places
[05:02] <Hobbsee> right
[05:03] <Riddell> three or four I guess
[05:03] <Hobbsee> right
[05:03] <eagles0513875> hey guys im an avid 64bit user of kubuntu and i love what u guys have done with the 64bit im an avid tester and would love to test any stuff u guys r working on besides the laptop which is 64bit i have a 64bit desktop that i will put this on when i get back to the usa
[05:03] <kwwii> Riddell: right, that is what I meant: I will ask her if she is interested :-)
[05:03] <eagles0513875> i want to say great work and i have to say this is the best 64bit operating system out there
[05:03] <Riddell> eagles0513875: 64 bit testers are needed for testing tribe releases, hang around #ubuntu-iso and #kubuntu-testers
[05:04] <imbrandon> brandon@voyager:~/files/planet-ubuntu/planet-ubuntu$ bzr commit -m "Added Seele back to Planet Ubuntu ( kubuntu member )"
[05:04] <Riddell> ok
[05:04] <imbrandon> modified config.ini
[05:04] <imbrandon> Committed revision 256.
[05:04] <Riddell> is anyone interested in packaging Qt Jambi?
[05:04] <Riddell> java bindings
[05:04] <imbrandon> against gcj or sun ?
[05:04] <Tonio_> Riddell: I can have a look
[05:04] <Riddell> Tonio_: don't overload yourself :)
[05:04] <Tonio_> Riddell: I don't have "that" many things to do
[05:04] <Riddell> imbrandon: not sure, gcj if it manages I guess
[05:05] <Tonio_> Riddell: well acutally I have a lot, but in a few weeks (2 or 3) I may have time for this :)
[05:05] <Riddell> Tonio_: there's some build issues, ask tronical (Simon haussman) for more information
[05:05] <imbrandon> i'm not great at java stuff but i can help along with someone else if they need/want it
[05:05] <Riddell> ok, Tonio_ and imbrandon to do that
[05:05] <Tonio_> Riddell: okay, will do that then
[05:05] <Riddell> spec update: how are we getting on?
[05:05] <Riddell> kde4-system-settings is in trunk, woo
[05:05] <Tonio_> imbrandon: feel free to start on your own, I may just not have time right now
[05:06] <Riddell> Tonio_: how is dolphin-by-default?
[05:06] <imbrandon> Tonio_, ok i'll get the ball rolling and let you know where i'm at later this week
[05:06] <Tonio_> Riddell: okay so here is the point :
[05:06] <Tonio_> we need to get 0.9 in, for which I have packages, but there is an issue with the naming change
[05:06] <Tonio_> upstream wouldn't like me to rename the all app from d3lphin to dolphin
[05:07] <Riddell> but d3lphin is a horrible name for users to see, the menu item should be dolphin
[05:07] <eagles0513875> Riddell: does that mean i can still sign up or not
[05:07] <Tonio_> second point : we need some bit of code in the kcm app chooser to be able to switch from konqueror to dolphin
[05:07] <Tonio_> that can be done easilly by changing the inode/directory mimetype association
[05:07] <Riddell> eagles0513875: to UDS, yes, we can put your name down
[05:07] <eagles0513875> uds when and in boston right
[05:07] <Tonio_> beeing able to select the default with the standard tool is a requirement I'd say
[05:07] <eagles0513875> im saying the meetings member list
[05:07] <Riddell> eagles0513875: yes, first week of november
[05:08] <eagles0513875> is it a weekend
[05:08] <Tonio_> Riddell: do you agree ?
[05:08] <Hobbsee> eagles0513875: no, it's a week.
[05:08] <eagles0513875> thing is ill have classes
[05:08] <Riddell> Tonio_: I agree
[05:08] <Hobbsee> eagles0513875: then you either miss them, or dont go
[05:08] <Tonio_> third point : Ark
[05:08] <Hobbsee> eagles0513875: i'm missing this one, i expect, due to uni
[05:08] <Tonio_> dolphin doesn't understand konqueror plugins, only servicemenus
[05:08] <eagles0513875> same with me im in uni too
[05:09] <imbrandon> ok confrence call, bbiab
[05:09] <Tonio_> we have to write a nice one, but servicemenus have a problem : they are not dynamic, so we can't add options depending the installed compression tools installed on the machine, like unrar for example
[05:09] <Tonio_> I must say I don't see a solution on that point
[05:09] <Riddell> Tonio_: I don't care that much, you still get ark if you left click on it
[05:10] <Tonio_> Riddell: you don't..... that's the problem
[05:10] <Riddell> what do you get?
[05:10] <Tonio_> Riddell: will only work with tar.gz by default
[05:10] <nixternal> hola
[05:10] <Tonio_> nothing with zip, rar etc....
[05:10] <Riddell> well ark should be associated with rar files then
[05:10] <Tonio_> Riddell: and what if you want to compress a file or folder ? :)
[05:10] <nixternal> didn't even know we had a meeting
[05:10] <Riddell> I'm talking about uncompressing
[05:10] <_marseillais> Riddell, for qt jambi i can take a look this week end
[05:11] <Riddell> for compressing you can open ark yourself
[05:11] <nixternal> yay Jambi!
[05:11] <_marseillais> oups sorry for delay
[05:11] <Riddell> _marseillais: fight it out with imbrandon and Tonio_ :)
[05:11] <Tonio_> Riddell: you talk about doubleclicking the file ?
[05:11] <Tonio_> Riddell: that way yes it works
[05:11] <Riddell> Tonio_: yes
[05:11] <Riddell> so voila
[05:11] <imbrandon> _marseillais, your more than welcome to take it, if you want/need a hand just poke me or Tonio_
[05:12] <Tonio_> but that not very nice in my opinion
[05:12] <Riddell> right click menus aren't the best UI for most things
[05:12] <Tonio_> Riddell: I need to investigate how this works on kde4
[05:12] <Tonio_> maybe there is just a super servicemenu written :)
[05:12] <_marseillais> imbrandon, oki i'll try to do this this week end.
[05:12] <Riddell> Tonio_: keyboard-accessibility, how's that?
[05:12] <Riddell> abattoir: are you still planning to do onboard?
[05:12] <Tonio_> no work on that point at the moment, but that's planed on my own
[05:12] <Tonio_> Riddell: will tell you more next meeting
[05:13] <Riddell> kwwii: kubuntu-artwork-gusty (a spec I just invented), how's it getting on
[05:13] <Riddell> a new background would be nice
[05:13] <Riddell> mhb: how's restricted-manager doing?
[05:13] <kwwii> Riddell: yeah, I wanted to get a new bg and change the window deco colors
[05:14] <kwwii> I think I messed up the colors in Feisty ;-(
[05:14] <Riddell> I hadn't noticed
[05:14] <dthacker> kwwii: I have no complaints. :)
[05:15] <abattoir> R
[05:15] <abattoir> Riddell: yes of course.
[05:16] <Riddell> abattoir: soon?  otherwise I suspect mhb will start it first
[05:16] <abattoir> Riddell: i've started work on it(trying to separate the frontend and backend) but mhb is more than welcome to work on it if he wants to :)
[05:17] <Riddell> ok, mhb to coordinate with abattoir if he starts on onboard
[05:17] <Riddell> any other agenda items?
[05:18] <Riddell> any volunteets to make the minutes?
[05:18] <Hobbsee> Jucato: does
[05:18] <nixternal> lol
[05:19] <nixternal> wasan't there a "scribes" team at one point that used to do exactly this?
[05:19] <Hobbsee> oh, the vista lover wants to!
[05:19] <Hobbsee> nixternal: consider yourself voluntold
[05:19] <nixternal> vista lover is enjoying the 4th of july today :)
[05:19] <Hobbsee> nixternal: and if you can voluntell Jucato to do it, you're welcome.
[05:19] <Riddell> has everyone watched my talk from akademy?
[05:20] <Hobbsee> no.  link?
[05:20] <nixternal> Riddell: link!?
[05:20] <Tonio_> Riddell: nope, url plz :)
[05:20] <Riddell> nixternal: it's a half hour ramble
[05:20] <Riddell> http://home.kde.org/~akademy07/videos/
[05:20] <nixternal> Riddell: it is cool to see everyone is having a good time
[05:20] <Riddell> sabdfl has a talk there too
[05:20] <nixternal> awesome!
[05:20] <kwwii> I put a few pics on my flickr page
[05:20] <Riddell> kwwii: please add to http://wiki.kde.org/aKademy+2007+Photos
[05:20] <Hobbsee> Riddell: the time based releases one?
[05:21] <nixternal> we (Ubuntu Chicago) will be putting up a Bzr talk by a Bzr dev pretty soon as well...good information in it
[05:21] <Riddell> Hobbsee: that was one of the points
[05:21] <nixternal> We found out recently that Chicago has its very own Canonical employee to bug now :)
[05:21] <Riddell> nixternal: who's that?
[05:21] <Hobbsee> Riddell: ah, that was teh only one i saw blogged about
[05:22] <nixternal> John (can't remember last name), aka jam, who does Bazaar development
[05:22] <Riddell> I'm in london for the next week at the distro sprint
[05:22] <Riddell> if you're in the area, drop by
[05:22] <Hobbsee> Riddell: will any of that be documented anywhere?
[05:22] <Riddell> Hobbsee: I'll still be online
[05:23] <Riddell> as will everyone else
[05:23] <nixternal> hey, does everyone know that Amarok is broken btw?
[05:23] <Hobbsee> Riddell: i meant the results of it
[05:23] <Hobbsee> nixternal: yes, known, in the process of being fixed
[05:23] <Hobbsee> nixternal: it's curl buggery
[05:23] <nixternal> rock on!
[05:23] <Riddell> Hobbsee: there's no results, we just hack as normal
[05:23] <nixternal> yup
[05:23] <kwwii> I'll be there too, but don't drop by :p
[05:23] <Hobbsee> Riddell: okay
[05:23] <Hobbsee> Riddell: what dates are they from?
[05:23] <Hobbsee> 9-13/7?
[05:24] <Riddell> yes
[05:24] <Hobbsee> cool, OK
[05:24] <Jucato> Hobbsee: sorry can't do the minutes. I'll pass it to nixternal for now (haven't really been paying attention...) sorry...
[05:24] <Hobbsee> okay, nixternal is voluntold, with the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
[05:24] <nixternal> damn
[05:25] <nixternal> ;p
[05:25] <Jucato> nixternal: happy independence day :)
[05:25] <Riddell> Hobbsee: I've been using long sticks to herd people around akademy, they work well
[05:25] <Hobbsee> Riddell: you didnt take mine, did you?
[05:25] <nixternal> why thank you...last night went and seen Heart...today I am going to see the Marshall Tucker Band, enjoy some more ribs and beer
[05:25] <Hobbsee> Riddell: there can only be one Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
[05:25] <Riddell> no, I used the sponsors banners rolled up
[05:25] <Hobbsee> Riddell: ahh.  clever :)
[05:26] <dthacker> would that be a pointy roll, then?
[05:26] <Riddell> anyway, we're done, chat to #kubuntu-devel folks
[05:26] <kwwii> thanks all
[05:26] <poningru> someone say beer?
[05:26] <poningru> where?
[05:26] <poningru> beer?
[05:26] <Hobbsee> thanks everyone for coming
[05:26] <poningru> no?
[05:27] <Hobbsee> poningru: no beer!
[05:27] <poningru> !!
[05:27] <poningru> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
[05:27] <poningru> D:
[05:33] <fritsch> Riddell: the link to the videos, you just posted. Not a single one is working correctly on feisty (kmplayer, vlc, mplayer). Sometimes image goes away ...
[05:33] <fritsch> Riddell: tried your talk and the one from the fedora guys
[05:41] <poningru> fritsch: wfm
[05:42] <poningru> mplayer & vlc
[05:42] <poningru> try downloading it and then playing it
[05:42] <fritsch> poningru: ... already did, just did wget file and tried to play it with these 3 players
[05:44] <fritsch> poningru: [theora @ 0xf04c30] Missing extradata! <- mplayer error message, could not open codec and bad packet in stream ...
[05:45] <poningru> hmm give me the link to the exact one you are trying to play
[05:45] <poningru> and we will compare md5sum
[05:45] <fritsch> poningru: oki
[05:46] <fritsch> poningru: http://home.kde.org/~akademy07/videos/1-22-Kubuntu-turning_KDE_into_an_operating_system.ogg <- first
[05:46] <fritsch> poningru: http://home.kde.org/~akademy07/videos/1-20-Fedora_7_KDE_spin.ogg <- second
[05:46] <fritsch> poningru: try seeking in the film, jumping forwards
[05:46] <poningru> k
[05:46] <poningru> eek huge file
[05:47] <fritsch> 6a7d88ed8506c5266bf0819f23ea6d40  1-22-Kubuntu-turning_KDE_into_an_operating_system.ogg
[05:47] <poningru> will take 5mins to get
[05:47] <fritsch> fae0fb0e22c4d7228b07936855f6017b  1-20-Fedora_7_KDE_spin.ogg
[05:48] <poningru> grr only getting around 1MB/s
[05:48] <poningru> where is that hosted?
[05:50] <allee> :)
[05:50] <poningru> fae0fb0e22c4d7228b07936855f6017b  1-20-Fedora_7_KDE_spin.ogg
[05:50] <poningru> huh looks same
[05:51] <Hobbsee> allee: i hate you.
[05:51] <Hobbsee> allee: seriously.
[05:51] <poningru> awww
[05:51] <Hobbsee> allee: that's just...not allowed.
[05:51] <poningru> hey man I get that from my uni
[05:51] <Hobbsee> like, 30kb/s
[05:52] <allee> Hobbsee: at the week end I've only 64 Kbit :(
[05:52] <Hobbsee> heh
[05:52] <allee> Hobbsee: then you can sorrow me
[05:52] <Hobbsee> not really.
[05:52] <Hobbsee> well, our home connection seems to be double that, or so
[05:53] <poningru> fritsch: hmm yeha it seems to have some weirdness
[05:54] <poningru> in the beginning there are few things here and there that throw errors
[05:54] <poningru> but if you just move forward a few frames in mplayer it works fine
[05:56] <fritsch> poningru: yes
[05:57] <fritsch> poningru: just thouht, that official videos with ogg codec, should just work ;-)
[05:57] <poningru> hehe yeah
[05:57] <poningru> but most of those vids seem fine
[05:57] <poningru> its just some of them are fracked up
[05:57] <poningru> but yeah agreed
[05:57] <poningru> should just work
[05:58] <fritsch> poningru: thx for co checking
[06:00] <poningru> np
[06:01] <poningru> Hobbsee: welcome to the slow speed in countries that have monopoly telecoms
[06:01] <Hobbsee> poningru: yeah...this is saying 30 mins
[09:59] <RichEd> hi LaserJock
[10:00] <RichEd> getting the pre-edubuntu-meeting coffee ... kick off in 3 mins
[10:00] <LaserJock> k
[10:01] <ogra> coffee!
[10:01] <BFTD> @schedule los_angeles
[10:01] <ubotu> Schedule for America/Los_Angeles: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 05 Jul 13:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Jul 08:00: Kernel Team | 11 Jul 05:00: Edubuntu | 12 Jul 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 17:00: MOTU Team
[10:03] <RichEd> LaserJock: thanks for the mail ... good comments and good food for thought :)
[10:03] <LaserJock> RichEd: yeah, it might have been a bit wordy
[10:03] <LaserJock> I do believe that's the longest email I've ever written
[10:04] <RichEd> no problem ... appreciate all of it ...
[10:05] <RichEd> Right ... Ogra : Technical ?
[10:06] <ogra> yeah
[10:06] <ogra> well
[10:07] <ogra> tribe2 was released thursday
[10:07] <ogra> was quite a lot of work since the new ltsp stuff wasnt integrated in the istaller yet
[10:07] <BFTD> um, a meeting on July 4th?
[10:07] <ogra> its good enough to install but totally unresponsive to the user wtm
[10:08] <ogra> BFTD, the world is bigger than america ;)
[10:08] <ogra> *atm
[10:08] <BFTD> yeah but you'll lose a large chunk of users and developers
[10:08] <ogra> i will need to put a day or two ino the installer ieces to fix that before tribe3 (july 19th)
[10:09] <LaserJock> BFTD: sure, what an awesome way to celebrate the 4th than to celebrate software freedom!
[10:09] <BFTD> hehe
[10:09] <BFTD> ok you win
[10:09] <RichEd> BFTD ... we'll make do ... you know the rest of us lesser nations
[10:09] <BFTD> um, does anyone know when the next CC meeting is?
[10:09] <LaserJock> BFTD: check fridge.ubuntu.com
[10:09] <gnomefreak> hasnt been set yet afaik
[10:09] <BFTD> thanks
[10:10] <BFTD> oh
[10:10] <BFTD> well how do I add myselfto the agenda to become a member?
[10:10] <ogra> beyond that i made the sis7019 oss driver work with our kernel, so the e2300 (http://www.compactpc.com.tw/ebox-2300.htm) users ca have sound now too (not sure if i want that driver integrated though, but there is at least a wroking version now)
[10:11] <RichEd> BFTD: the CC for Ubuntu or Edubuntu Members ?
[10:11] <BFTD> ubuntu
[10:12] <LaserJock> BFTD: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewMemberHowto
[10:12] <RichEd> This isan Edubuntu meeting at the moment. I suggest you check out the Ubuntu group on Lanchpad, and make an application there ?
[10:12] <RichEd> Ah ... and some handy help from the LaserScientist above as well
[10:13] <ogra> and i wrote a new X detection for ltsp since the old on was taking up 20 seconds (loading the whole debconf database takes a lot of time) we could go without a config with the new Xorg but that brings up new probs with keyboard and optional configuration changes ... so a new detection was needed, thats done now ...
[10:14] <LaserJock> nifty
[10:14] <ogra> (actually it feels like there will be not much left from the ltsp we had in feisty *g*)
[10:14] <ogra> thats all about ltsp ...
[10:14] <LaserJock> how's the new ldm/greeter?
[10:14] <ogra> on the classmate front i cleaned up some hardoded scripts from the initramfs stuff i did
[10:15] <ogra> *hardcoded
[10:15] <ogra> LaserJock, i'm waiting for the go from scttie to merge the next iteration ...
[10:15] <ogra> he changed the greeter to be magaed by stdin/stdout commands
[10:16] <ogra> so we are able to have a full communication between user and ssh ....
[10:16] <ogra> i.e. it will be possible now to update expired passwords
[10:16] <ogra> smartcard integration should become easy
[10:16] <ogra> and feedback that a user is already logged in :)
[10:17] <LaserJock> that will be great
[10:18] <ogra> yeah
[10:18] <ogra> especially if you can run ldm standalone
[10:18] <ogra> on any system
[10:19] <LaserJock> any other goodies?
[10:19] <ogra> in gutsy+1 i'd like to add a USB stick mode to the squashfs image ... then you can use the ltsp client image like a liveCD
[10:20] <ogra> i.e. boot anything you like into ldm ..
[10:20] <ogra> next step would be WLAN support
[10:20] <LaserJock> cool
[10:20] <ogra> ten you can punt the 150M image on a SD card or so and boot anything as thin client from that
[10:21] <LaserJock> have you had a chance to talk to colin about the LiveCD? ;-)
[10:21] <ogra> no matter if its a handhed, laptop or desktop
[10:21] <ogra> *handheld
[10:21] <LaserJock> that would be really cool
[10:21] <ogra> LaserJock, we agreed that we would work on it during the sprint
[10:21] <LaserJock> ok, awesome
[10:21] <ogra> (starts sunday)
[10:22] <ogra> i want that fixed urgently
[10:22] <ogra> thats the best opportunity
[10:22] <LaserJock> yes
[10:22] <LaserJock> where is the sprint?
[10:22] <ogra> london
[10:23] <ogra> all sprints are there now that we have the huge office :)
[10:23] <LaserJock> ah, nifty
[10:23] <ogra> thats all so far from tech atm
[10:24] <ogra> busy week ...
[10:24] <LaserJock> well, I talked with colin today about the addon CD changes
[10:24] <ogra> your code looks fine
[10:24] <RichEd> ogra: hope you travel safe and simple :)
[10:24] <ogra> we didnt talk about it yet ;)
[10:24] <ogra> RichEd, yeah, me too
[10:25] <LaserJock> I created a mockup at http://laserjock.us/files/gai.png
[10:25] <RichEd> you must tell me about the new hotel ... no more KK
[10:25] <ogra> cunductors are on strike here atm .. but i picked a flight in the evening ....
[10:25] <ogra> so it should work out :)
[10:25] <LaserJock> I'm fairly happy with the categories for now, there are at least 3 apps in each submenu
[10:25] <ogra> we need icons :/
[10:25] <LaserJock> yes
[10:25] <LaserJock> I can specify icons,  but since I didn't have any I just used the Education one
[10:26] <ogra> http://www.grangehotels.com/grange_rochester_hotel/index.htm
[10:26] <ogra> RichEd, ^^
[10:26] <ogra> LaserJock, yeah
[10:26] <RichEd> LaserJock: would you like me to ask kwii for some help with icons ... or else the new launchpad style is also neat ?
[10:26] <LaserJock> RichEd: please do, my artistic skills are horrible
[10:26] <ogra> well, they should fit into gartoon
[10:27] <RichEd> LaserJock: icons also take a certain sort of bent head to get looking good ... not for us mere mortals I fear
[10:27] <ogra> (our icon theme)
[10:27] <RichEd> can you send me an example, and some short overview of requirements ?
[10:27] <LaserJock> the other thing is I'm working on some metapackages and I'd like to put them in the main part of the menu
[10:28] <ogra> oh, i forgot one thing, moquist contacted moodle in debian asking to drop the wwwconfig-common code :)
[10:28] <LaserJock> I was thinking Legacy (edu apps from dapper/edgy), and KDE at least
[10:28] <ogra> i'm curious about the answer :)
[10:28] <ogra> (if we even get one)
[10:28] <LaserJock> yeah, I've been working with moquist on packaging some stuff
[10:29] <ogra> we had a short meeting today
[10:29] <ogra> yeah, he told me ... the sambaldap stuff :)
[10:29] <ogra> gerat to see that
[10:29] <ogra> *great even
[10:31] <ogra> anyway, i think thats it about tech
[10:31] <LaserJock> has anybody had a chance to look at my MIR Candidates list?
[10:31] <ogra> the one on your wiki ?
[10:31] <LaserJock> yeah
[10:31] <RichEd> LaserJock: sorry not yet ...
[10:31] <LaserJock> k, I figure I should start cracking on those
[10:32] <LaserJock> I have a couple I *know* I want to get in, so I'll start with those
[10:32] <LaserJock> but it'd be nice to get some feedback from people
[10:32] <ogra> oooh, that remonds me
[10:32] <ogra> *reminds
[10:32] <LaserJock> yeah?
[10:33] <ogra> *note
[10:33] <LaserJock> ohh
[10:34] <ogra> all deps are in main now afaik
[10:34] <ogra> and the MIR is approved since ages
[10:34] <LaserJock> really?
[10:34] <ogra> yes
[10:35] <LaserJock> I think schools could really like gobby
[10:36] <ogra> yeah
[10:37] <LaserJock> documentation?
[10:38] <RichEd> Nothing from my side on docs
[10:38] <ogra> here neither
[10:39] <ogra> apart from the statement that much in ltsp land changed and will need new docs
[10:39] <LaserJock> well, I was going to wait for more changes
[10:39] <ogra> yeah
[10:39] <RichEd> ogra: is the LTSP install process also different now than the current docs ?
[10:39] <LaserJock> but yesterday we got a bug complaining that we have Feisty docs
[10:39] <ogra> there will still be a lot
[10:39] <LaserJock> and translators weren't liking it or something
[10:40] <ogra> RichEd, its longer ... we generate an image from the client environment ...
[10:40] <RichEd> I recall a comment on the edubuntu.org page saying that there are less steps than outlined ?
[10:40] <LaserJock> so I think maybe today I'll upload what I've got
[10:40] <LaserJock> just so there is a gutsy edubuntu-docs package
[10:40] <ogra> that takes abot 8minutes on a 1Ghz machine ...
[10:40] <ogra> 8mins where you see no disk activity since all the image compressing happens without disk access
[10:41] <LaserJock> hmm
[10:41] <ogra> in the intaller that seems like its hanging
[10:41] <RichEd> oops ... the GettingStarted page still says this: "For notes on how to configure settings for Edubuntu 6.06 LTS, please seeThin client configuration."
[10:42] <RichEd> Does that section still apply to 7.04 ... or must they refer to: The latest release, Edubuntu 7.04, provides additional options for customising the thin client behaviour. They are documented in the Edubuntu Handbook, which is available in the Edubuntu System Help menu.
[10:42] <RichEd> ??
[10:42] <LaserJock> is there a general recommendation about using Edubuntu LTS?
[10:42] <ogra> hmm
[10:42] <LaserJock> should we encourage people to use 7.04?
[10:42] <ogra> yeah
[10:43] <ogra> the ltsp in 6.06 is really not great
[10:43] <ogra> feature wise ...
[10:43] <ogra> edgy was the first one that had all features we support today
[10:43] <LaserJock> that's what I was thinking
[10:43] <LaserJock> it's a bit different than Ubuntu that way
[10:43] <ogra> config wise 6.06 had a lot less options ...
[10:44] <RichEd> and should the advice above be either / or ... i.e. for 7.04 dop they look at : please seeThin client configuration AND the handbook ... or just the handbook
[10:44] <ogra> we should have a release based lts.conf option list
[10:44] <ogra> in the docs ...
[10:44] <LaserJock> mhm
[10:44] <ogra> well i'd rather say handbook ...
[10:45] <ogra> but then a lot of the options in the handbook arent even supported in dapper
[10:45] <ogra> and i'm not eager to tag all options *inside* the handbook for their releases
[10:46] <ogra> sbalneav wasnt around the whole day i doubt he'll show up
[10:46] <RichEd> he'll be busy with July 4th and kids and fanily methinks
[10:46] <RichEd> *family
[10:46] <LaserJock> bah, doesn't stop me :-)
[10:46] <LaserJock> and he's Canadian ;-)
[10:47] <ogra> heh
[10:47] <ogra> thats all about docs ?
[10:48] <RichEd> And for artwork, I have not mailed Pete yet ... must do that tomorrow:(
[10:48] <ogra> we had artwork before ... anything to add ?
[10:48] <ogra> LaserJock, does he show up in -motu ?
[10:49] <ogra> i see him blogging abotu code ...
[10:49] <ogra> *about
[10:50] <RichEd> "There are 48 direct members of the "Edubuntu Artwork" team, and 48 people are members in total, directly and indirectly through other team memberships."
[10:50] <RichEd> I must also mail them to see who is still active and willing to help. Some old names there, like my wife.
[10:52] <RichEd> No sign of HighVoltage or willvdl for web site ...
[10:52] <ogra> neither pips1
[10:52] <RichEd> Can we move onto community then ... the edubuntu-members stuff we spoke about last week ?
[10:53] <RichEd> give me a sec to save a page I am editing
[10:54] <LaserJock> ogra: I talk to Pete on jabber occasionally
[10:54] <LaserJock> I've seen him also a couple times in #edubuntu lately
[10:55] <LaserJock> is kwwii doing Edubuntu artwork at all?
[10:55] <ogra_> grmbl
[10:56] <RichEd> LaserJock: kwii is willing to help ... and if he hits overload, we'll resolve then
[10:56] <ogra> not sure something i can find out next week at the sprint ;)
[10:56] <LaserJock> well, I think it would help to have like a direction or spec
[10:56] <RichEd> LaserJock: I have not seen cbx33 in #edubuntu for about 3 weeks
[10:57] <LaserJock> i think there might some people who are interested in helping
[10:57] <ajmitch> cbx33 has been busy, but around
[10:57] <LaserJock> but just saying "create artwork for Edubuntu" is a bit vague and overwhelming
[10:57] <RichEd> LaserJock: step 1 is for me to tidy the artwork group ... ping people to see who is alive and kicking
[10:57] <ogra> LaserJock, i'll talk with him at the sprint
[10:58] <RichEd> perhaps you can ask them to join the artwork group
[10:58] <RichEd> hi ajmitch
[10:58] <ogra> thats one of the reasons i'm there :)
[10:58] <RichEd> Okay ... semi-related, and moving also onto community & membership:
[10:58] <RichEd> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community
[10:58] <ajmitch> hello
[10:58] <RichEd> I've updated that page to have a short description of all the Edubuntu and Education and School groups in Launchpad
[10:59] <RichEd> So LaserJock you can even point people there, tell them to follow the artwork link, and sign up, and await an invtitation to join the meeting next week
[11:00] <RichEd> b.t.w. LaserJock are the possible helpers stateside or europe time ?
[11:00] <ogra> hmm
[11:00] <RichEd> and which meeting time generally works best for stateside ?
[11:00] <RichEd> the 12:00 UTC or the now one ?
[11:01] <RichEd> ogra: that is the next matter on the table when LaserJock has commented on the artwork
[11:01] <RichEd> :)
[11:01] <ogra> its very confusing imho
[11:01] <LaserJock> I have no idea about the artwork team, tbh
[11:01] <ogra> we want people in https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-members and make contributions to jpin it
[11:01] <LaserJock> overall I think we have way to many teams
[11:01] <LaserJock> *too
[11:01] <ogra> yeh
[11:01] <ogra> a
[11:01] <RichEd> LaserJock: I'll sort out the team ... I was asking for comment on the possible helpers you mentioned
[11:02] <RichEd> exactly ... let's jump right into the LP topic then:
[11:02] <RichEd> * why is there edubuntu and edubuntu-members ?
[11:02] <RichEd> Anyone have some historical perspecgive for me ?
[11:02] <RichEd> *perspective
[11:02] <ogra> edubuntu was the initial team to track edubuntu users
[11:02] <ogra> before any of the other existed
[11:02] <LaserJock> RichEd: I honestly don't know, Pete and Lisa are the only people I know of really, plus maybe Viper500
[11:03] <ogra> then we got EC powers and got the edubuntu-members team
[11:03] <ogra> that made edubuntu obsolete
[11:03] <RichEd> LaserJock: Viper500 ? not sure who that is ... never come across that nick
[11:03] <RichEd> ogra: some thinking aloud from my side then ... for edubuntu-members:
[11:03] <RichEd> "Membership is open to anybody who has made a substantial contribution - of any form - to Edubuntu."
[11:03] <LaserJock> RichEd: Ubuntu Artwork guy
[11:03] <RichEd> LaserJock: okie
[11:04] <ogra> RichEd, right
[11:04] <ogra> and who went through the membership procedure ...
[11:04] <RichEd> How can somone join "as part of the family" before they have done enough to get approved ?
[11:04] <LaserJock> RichEd: sustained and significant contribution
[11:04] <ogra> (add wikipage to agenda, show up at EC meeting etc)
[11:05] <RichEd> I 'spose what I am asking is should we have a low entry level group : edubuntu ... for any intereste person ...
[11:05] <RichEd> And make edubuntu-members the "approved cointributors"
[11:05] <RichEd> Would that make any sense ?
[11:05] <ogra> i'd rather see these people trying to join -members
[11:06] <ogra> someone created edubuntu-enthsiasts or education-enthusiasts recently
[11:06] <RichEd> Would that not scare off some potential people who *may* contribute later when comfortable / skilled ?
[11:06] <ogra> (there was a mail on the ML)
[11:06] <LaserJock> I think it's a real mistake to have a general team for anybody to join
[11:06] <ogra> why should i contibute if i can jon the other team for free
[11:06] <RichEd> ogra: neither of those showed up when I searched
[11:06] <LaserJock> we shouldn't have a team for sake of having a team
[11:07] <LaserJock> and we shouldn't create a team in the hopes that people will join
[11:07] <ogra> https://launchpad.net/~education-enthusiasts
[11:07] <RichEd> LaserJock: I am happy to merge the groups, just thinking aloud as I said
[11:07] <ogra> 15 members
[11:07] <ogra> RichEd, its not that easy, you cant merge them
[11:08] <RichEd> ogra: strange ... I searched on Education in teams (but then LP searches were never the best)
[11:08] <ogra> edubuntu people would have to go through the membership procedure to join edubuntu-members
[11:08] <LaserJock> I count 18 edubuntu teams + the education-enthusiasts team
[11:08] <LaserJock> but we have very few people actually doing anything, IMO
[11:08] <ogra> yeah
[11:08] <RichEd> i've called up: ttps://launchpad.net/~education-enthusiasts and will ad it to the wiki page
[11:09] <RichEd> ogra: by merge, I did not expect a button :) I may need to ask people to join the correct group, and then remove themselves from edubuntu
[11:09] <RichEd> and then we can ask for edubuntu to be shot down
[11:09] <ogra> LaserJock, well, it seems every time we have some enthusiastic people in edubuntu a new team is founded ... until the itrest dies again ...
[11:09] <RichEd> oops ... freudian slip ... *shut down
[11:09] <ogra> heh
[11:09] <ogra> RichEd, we need a secretary :/
[11:10] <RichEd> so the moral of the story is ... imho:
[11:10] <RichEd> * trim the # of groups
[11:10] <RichEd> * mail people to see who is still alive
[11:10] <RichEd> * get a core set of people in core groups active again
[11:11] <RichEd> and when we talk about art / docs / handbook etc in meetings, post an update to the LP group to get the news / info / initiatives out to the people who were not at the meeting
[11:11] <RichEd> sound like a plan ?
[11:11] <RichEd> comments, opinions, loose change ?
[11:11] <ogra> sounds good ...
[11:12] <RichEd> LaserJock: make sense to you ?
[11:12] <ogra> looks like a plan (merely because of the added bulletpoints *g*)
[11:12] <LaserJock> RichEd: seems good
[11:13] <LaserJock> we might want to have team leads and team reports
[11:13] <RichEd> okay ... I'll take responsibility for a first round of pinging and tidying ... and update the page or the meeting next week ...
[11:13] <RichEd> and we can talk through it again then ... with less groups, and more live bodies hopefully
[11:14] <RichEd> Any other items for the meeting tonight ?
[11:15] <ogra> i'll be at the sprint then ... if you have anything i need direct access to any of my collaegues for, ask me that next week :)
[11:15] <ogra> actually the meeting will even be during offic hours next week
[11:15] <ogra> since its a EC meeting, we should at least ask :)
[11:16] <RichEd> thanks ollie ... you can keep an eye on the meeting channel at the sprint or any questions that come up
[11:16] <ogra> ANY EDUBUNTU MEBERSHIP CANDIDATES WHO MIGHT BE HERE, SPEAK UP NOW !
[11:17] <ogra> just pro-forma
[11:17] <ogra> so we can say we did our EC duty :)
[11:17] <LaserJock> I guess
[11:17] <ogra> nuff waited :)
[11:18] <RichEd> ... going once ....
[11:18] <RichEd> ... going twice ....
[11:18] <RichEd> done ... sold to the man in the electronic kilt
[11:18] <usul> :) I can help
[11:18] <ogra> LaserJock, bah, you broke the suspense
[11:19] <usul> sorry
[11:19] <RichEd> usul: in what whay do you offer your kind assistance ?
[11:19] <RichEd> *way
[11:19] <RichEd> with the gonging, or artwork ?
[11:19] <ogra> or the secretary position ? :)
[11:20] <usul> dunno, :) no not secretary
[11:20] <ogra> heh
[11:20] <RichEd> usul ... well check out the following page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community
[11:20] <usul> docbook , java ? is that any good?
[11:21] <RichEd> and let us know what looks like it may interest you ... and then mail me, or grab one of us in the #edubuntu channel tomorrow
[11:21] <RichEd> docbook would be a help I am sure
[11:21] <usul> sure sounds good
[11:21] <RichEd> thanks
[11:22] <RichEd> LaserJock: I had education enthusiasts in the page ... that is a recent effort by Jim in Colorado
[11:22] <RichEd> *tucks
[11:22] <ogra> heh
[11:22] <RichEd> night all ... usul see you in my mailbox or the channel
[11:22] <usul> ok :) see you
[11:23] <RichEd> usul: we would be grateful ... just all tired right now ... will chat again about volunteers at the meeting next weeek wed at 12L00 UTC