[12:17] geser: of course, that's why I asked if he planned on filing an M.I.R. to have it in gutsy/main. [12:19] ScottK, crimsun: Thank you. this package will be my first contribution in ubuntu reps :) === Monk-e [n=guido-xu@c529dd229.cable.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:21] mohammad: Uploaded. Thank you for contributing. Everyone having access to Ubuntu in their own language is an important value in Ubuntu, so this contribution is particularly appreciated. [12:22] thx crimsun. [12:22] whew, thank goodness my ttf- upload failed ;) [12:22] What, you uploaded it too? [12:22] (this caf's wifi is wonky) [12:22] no, I attempted, but it failed [12:23] rsync error: unexplained error (code 130) at rsync.c(271) [sender=2.6.9] [12:23] your upload is [or should be] the accepted one [12:23] I got an accepted message, so we're good. [12:23] crimsun: You rsync your uploads? [12:24] mohammad: It has to be manually accepted by the archive admins, so it will be a while before it's actually published. [12:24] shawarma: to a trusted remote host. [12:24] crimsun: Ah, from which you do the actual upload? [12:24] I dput from there. Yes. [12:25] That's pretty much what I do when on a questionable connection, too. [12:26] ScottK, crimsun: thanks [12:27] mohammad: No, thank you. You did the hard work here. Welcome to the club.... [12:28] ScottK, I need one more on mythbuntu-default-settings yet, would you be able to look that over as well? [12:28] err? [12:28] you already have 2 +1s on mythbuntu-default-settings [12:28] crimsun, did you upload? [12:28] oh whoops :) [12:28] I'm working on that [12:28] superm1: No. Unfortunately I have to be on the road in roughtly 120 seconds. [12:29] Ah. Looks like you're OK anyway. [12:29] roughtly/roughly === ScottK enjoys tsmithe continuing to instruct esr on the motu list .... [12:31] See you all later. Have a good $TIME_OF_DAY. [12:31] l8r === lfittl [n=lfittl@2001:6f8:107e:30:216:36ff:fe17:3cef] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:34] *headdesk* [12:35] `sudo ifconfig eth0 mtu 1300`, and voila, we're in business again. === theCore [n=alex@ubuntu/member/theCore] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ubotu [n=ubotu@ubuntu/bot/ubotu] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:47] reviewing ubuntustudio* source packages on REVU now. [12:48] Could someone nuke http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=5888 ? [12:49] why for? [12:49] crimsun: Has been renamed and will enter through Debian. [12:50] archived for now. [12:50] crimsun: Thanks === ceros [n=user@c-76-111-84-156.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === zul__ [n=chuck@mail.edgewater.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:54] <_16aR_> has anyone know how to register env variable in debian package ? [01:05] <_MMA_> crimsun: Thanx. === chillywilly [n=danielb@CPE-72-133-221-181.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === reggaemanu__ [n=manu@ARennes-257-1-84-219.w86-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ScottLij [n=scott@66-227-218-192.dhcp.klmz.mi.charter.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:14] _16aR_: more precisely, please? === doko [n=doko@dslb-088-073-106-070.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:19] when you use nautilus to connect to ftp server and it prompts you for password and user name even though you always hit always remember, what app is that a problem with? [01:21] gnome-keyring.gnome-keyring-manager | 2.18.0-2 | gutsy | source, amd64, i386, powerpc [01:21] argh [01:21] gnome-keyring-manager <-- [01:21] thats what i was afraid of === cypherbios [n=cypher@ubuntu/member/cypherbios] has joined #ubuntu-motu === rexbron [n=rexbron@CPE001310b2d1d1-CM0012256e816a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:25] crimsun: ty trying to file bug but LP isnt playing nicely === tritium [n=tritium@ubuntu/member/tritium] has joined #ubuntu-motu === persia [n=persia@ubuntu/member/persia] has joined #ubuntu-motu === jml [n=jml@ppp121-44-211-82.lns1.hba1.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === zul [n=chuck@CPE0006258ec6c1-CM000a73655d0e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === minghua [n=minghua@ubuntu/member/minghua] has joined #ubuntu-motu === zul_ [n=chuck@CPE0006258ec6c1-CM000a73655d0e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === robby [n=robby@c-76-18-187-43.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:27] <_16aR_> crimsun: for example, my soft checks a custom env var to look for medias [02:29] <_16aR_> at runtime, it checks the DELTA_DATA env to prepend it before each media needed by the game (texture sounds, models) [02:30] <_16aR_> so that it can load them === zul [n=chuck@ubuntu/member/zul] has joined #ubuntu-motu === radhios [n=radhios@200-122-53-60.dsl.prima.net.ar] has joined #ubuntu-motu === jsgotangco [n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-motu === anibal [n=anibal@debian/developer/anibal] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:46] _16aR_: that sounds like a runtime executable thing, not a packaging thing - or am I missing something? === beuno [n=martin@ubuntu/member/beuno] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:48] <_16aR_> crimsun: yes, but without this env var , every launch of the prog and further developped programs will fail loading the media. quite annoying [02:49] _16aR_: ok, confirm if I understand your statements. You'd like a user-specific or global environment variable to be seeded at user login for your package? [02:51] <_16aR_> crimsun: since every user could launch or develop an app, I think a global env would be cool [02:51] _16aR_: perhaps the software could supply a default value for this variable in a global configuration script, which could be patched (if required) in packaging, and use the default variable if the environment variable is not configured? [02:52] <_16aR_> but i may not know every aspect of packaging a distrib, so... [02:52] <_16aR_> persia: yes. It's a kind of $PATH var [02:53] <_16aR_> in fact, it is [02:53] <_16aR_> it is a path where to look for files to load in the app === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:57] persia's suggestion is worth investigating. === Arrogance [n=aks@ottawa-hs-206-191-39-150.d-ip.magma.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:58] e.g., conditionally source [well, '.' /etc/foo/bar] and modify $PATH as appropriate [03:00] <_16aR_> so it should be included in the libraries ? [03:01] <_16aR_> by default, it looks in the . dir [03:02] <_16aR_> otherwise it looks in the DELTA_DATA dir === cynics [n=cynics@211.94.35.200] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:02] is this environment variable something you _want_ the user to set? [03:03] i.e., if you're providing files that will be in $DELTA_DIR and hence will be needed, why not simply look there? [03:07] evening all === TeTeT [n=spindler@modemcable045.37-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu === jussi01 [n=jussi@dyn3-82-128-187-102.psoas.suomi.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ScottLij [n=scott@66-227-218-192.dhcp.klmz.mi.charter.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === antioxid [n=antioxid@ip58.183.reserved.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ScottLij [n=scott@66-227-218-192.dhcp.klmz.mi.charter.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:34] i will compile email-claws, in repository is libetpan 0.48 , but 0.49 is needed [03:34] crimsun: all moved? [03:34] mostly. === luisbg_ [n=luisbg@202.Red-83-40-100.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:38] crimsun: is it nice so far? [03:39] quite. Had lunch with Scott(K) earlier this afternoon. Finding all the free wifi spots in D.C. === hggdh [n=hggdh@pool-71-164-135-78.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has left #ubuntu-motu [] [03:39] awesome [03:39] what area of D.C. are you in? [03:40] I live in MD, but I commute to NW D.C. and Baltimore. [03:40] hello crimsun, LaserJock [03:40] 'lo ajmitch [03:41] I got to ride the subway a fair amount for the National American Chemical Society meeting last fall [03:41] I bet that was exciting ;) [03:41] I found a motel 6 out by the pentagon [03:42] and had to ride 20 min each way to the conference center in the middle of DC [03:42] hehe [03:42] yeah, I'm on Green/Yellow and Orange daily. [03:42] that motel 6 was $105/night [03:44] hey [03:44] hi zul [03:45] hey zul, how's the young one? [03:45] well, I really can't imagine living in the DC area but it was fun riding around the subway for a week [03:46] crimsun: good kind of cranky right now because he pulled out his feeding tube [03:47] yikes, is that easy to get back in? [03:47] i cant do it, have to wait until my wife gets home [03:47] ouch [03:48] yeah so he is crying every 2 minutes.. [03:48] its not like we dont feed him [03:51] but of course he thinks it's been days since you fed him last === antioxid [n=antioxid@ip58.183.reserved.ish.de] has left #ubuntu-motu [] [03:51] yeppers [03:53] zul: ah. And how are his folks doing? [03:54] very tired... === zul goes to feed the little stinker [03:54] :-) [03:55] darn, my swap/resume is still messed up [03:56] my swap partition has a new UUID every time I reboot it seems [03:57] I hope somebody gets some use out of the switch to UUIDs because it's been nothing but trouble for me === javier_galicia [n=Javier@189.130.231.56] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:02] hey Jordan [04:03] I see no purpose for UUID [04:04] it works for a few limited use cases of mine [04:04] using the location /dev/sda3 is much cleaner, and gives much more less problems [04:04] e.g., I have a bunch of external usb drives [04:06] luisbg: just because it gives less problems for you, doesn't mean that it is better [04:06] I have SATA drives where the BIOS order is quite different from the kernel detection order [04:06] ajmitch, it seams to give problems to LaserJock but I guess that if it's more problems for him, it doesn't mean it's worse [04:06] though I do use RAID on top of LVM for them (and so I can use the /dev/mapper/... syntax for filesystems) [04:07] the main reason was the switch from hdX to sdX [04:07] which really could get confusing when you have a mix of SATA & PATA devices [04:08] it does seem useful for often changing things, like USB sticks [04:08] if I place the UUID in my laptop the kernel panics, just changing it to sdX location fixes it [04:08] it's nice both things can be used [04:08] but I think it was Keybuk that was saying people shouldn't us /dev/sdX anymore [04:09] I'm not sure what else we're supposed to use, I'm not sure if LABEL= works everywhere UUID does and I'm not sure how I'm supposed to find what the LABEL is [04:09] vol_id? [04:09] so what if it doesn't have a label? [04:10] gotta leave [04:10] LaserJock, talk to you soon =) [04:10] ciao ajmitch [04:10] cya lucas [04:10] luisbg rather [04:11] ;) cya [04:12] LaserJock: I do confess to only using UUID for /boot === persia [n=persia@ubuntu/member/persia] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:13] well, it *was* working for swap so I must have done something [04:13] cryptoswap? :) [04:13] but it's kinda difficult to know what all I need to change [04:14] the only reason the swap UUID shoudl change would be if mkswap was being run on startup [04:14] hmm [04:14] again, on my laptop I use the lvm name for swap [04:14] well, yes, that makes sense to me === ajmitch would prefer lvm-by-default [04:14] but I don't understand why it would be running mkswap === superm1 [n=superm1@ubuntu/member/superm1] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:15] I"m still afraid of LVM, I don't know that I'd be all that happy with lvm-by-default :-) [04:16] LaserJock, i'm joining in this conv a bit late, but is LVM supported in ubiquity's partman yet? [04:16] there's nothing to be afraid of :) [04:16] superm1: no [04:16] okay thats what i thought... [04:17] LaserJock: LVM is tasty and good for you. [04:17] so any lvm-by-default spec would be a few releases away anyhow [04:17] yes [04:18] all this is in a spec somewhere [04:22] well, it seems too easy to make a mess with LVM [04:22] How? I've not managed to tie myself in a knot with it. [04:23] my biggest worry is that its too easy to lose data when you start spanning it across multiple drives [04:23] whereas with mount points instead, you only lose a little [04:23] superm1: No reason you can't use mount points AND LVM. [04:23] that's a false sense of security, really. [04:24] superm1: In servers, we use RAID 1 and LVM on top of that. [04:24] that would be the smarter way to go, but at that point why not RAID 0+1? [04:24] With only 2 disks? [04:25] These are 1RU rackmount servers. [04:25] ah right === jsgotangco [n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:26] Then again, even with more than 2 drives, I can't see why to use RAID0+1. [04:27] well, I don't have much of a need for LVM [04:27] StevenK: Depends on your IO and uptime requirements. If you've large IO, and have high uptime requirements, it's useful (although most of the time RAID5+spare is a better allocation of 4 drives). [04:28] and I've blown away partitions and volume groups, etc. trying to figure things out [04:28] LaserJock: Then your method of figuring stuff out is too destructive. :-P === sharms [n=sharms@ubuntu/member/sharms] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:28] StevenK: exactly [04:28] he plays with lasers. It's probably normal. ;) [04:29] so my cost/benefit hasn't really gone in favor of LVM [04:29] LaserJock: With lvm-by-default, that would become somebody else's problem, and it would just work. [04:29] Except when it breaks. === DarkMageZ [n=richard@238.101.233.220.exetel.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:29] right [04:29] the only time I've had issues with LVM like that, was due to my own stupidity & not checking before rm -rf [04:29] well, it's lvm-by-default on Fedora/openSUSE that usually messes me up [04:29] ie, completely unrelated to LVM [04:30] hi [04:30] hello === jml [n=jml@ppp121-44-211-82.lns1.hba1.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:31] if I had a real reason to use LVM I suppose I'd go ahead an figure it out [04:32] but I don't have multiple linux drive, or big drives === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:33] I think mostly I'm just an idiot with those kinds of things [04:33] hello Hobbsee === StevenK quotes LaserJock out of context. [04:34] since I seem to be the only one that has problems with it === FreeFish_ [n=dimas@201.2.143.198] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:34] LaserJock: I doubt that: it's a different way of thinking about drives and data, and it really helps to have either several drives or a really big one that need management to learn. [04:35] hi LaserJock! [04:35] hi ajmitch! [04:42] hi Hobbsee [04:45] howdy [04:45] I had to stop with the hola cuz LaserJock stole it from me :) [04:45] hola nixternal [04:45] ;-) [04:45] hehe === cynics [n=cynics@211.94.35.200] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:47] nixternal!!! [04:48] ajmitch!!! [04:48] it's the vista lover! [04:48] !nixternal [04:48] Oh no! The pointy-clicky Vista lover has arrived! He's rumoured to be giving out free money, too! === nixternal wishes he had some money [04:48] I need to figure out how to afford some RDRAM and a new hard drive for this free p4 server I got [04:49] RDRAM? throw out that motherboard [04:49] I've got 3 computers at work with RDRAM === FreeFish_ [n=dimas@201.2.143.198] has left #ubuntu-motu [] === Martinp23_ [n=Martinp2@wikimedia/Martinp23] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:51] Rambus, isn't it? [04:52] yeah, that's why my machines at work only have 256MB of it [04:52] expensive stuff === tritium [n=tritium@ubuntu/member/tritium] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:05] morning [05:05] tritium! [05:05] gpocentek! [05:05] Hi LaserJock :) [05:05] hiya gpocentek! [05:05] hi LaserJock :) [05:05] hi Hobbsee, hi tritium [05:05] LaserJock: congratulations are in order, yes? [05:06] hi gpocentek [05:06] tritium: maybe ;-) [05:06] That's awesome, LaserJock. Way to go :) [05:06] thanks [05:08] what happened? [05:08] --> still trying to wake up [05:08] Hey there, jsgotangco [05:09] hi! [05:09] hello jsgotangco, tritium [05:09] ajmitch! === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:16] Buenas noches, amigos. [05:16] tritium: bye [05:16] Talk to you soon. === ajmitch wonders what LaserJock was being congratulated for this time [05:16] Treenaks: cya [05:16] blah [05:16] stupid xchat ;-) [05:16] tritium: cya [05:16] ajmitch: core-dev [05:16] ajmitch: late congrats for core-dev [05:17] rather late, I'm sure you've been around since he became core-dev :) === tritium hangs his head in shame [05:18] aw === superm1_ [n=superm1@ubuntu/member/superm1] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ajmitch wasn't trying to be mean, it just comes naturally [05:18] No worries, ajmitch. /me heads to bed... [05:21] bye! [05:36] I'm filing removal bugs for packages removed from Debian. Can anyone think of a reason we might want to keep these? The only thing that's coming to mind for me is patent-related stuff for multiverse, but any other reasons I shouldn't file bugs would be welcome. [05:36] anyone here familiar with the freedesktop menu-spec and if debian supports it? [05:37] ceros: Somewhat, and not officially, but most of the time. === micahcowan [n=micah@ubuntu/member/micahcowan] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:38] persia: will it work for KDE and Gnome? [05:39] persia: should rephrase that, is it supported in KDE and Gnome? [05:39] ceros: It should, but there may be some customisations to the menus (as we have in Ubuntu) that may cause some confusion. [05:39] ceros: I think both upstreams strive for compatibility, but it's been a moving target until recently. [05:40] do you happen to know how kdevelop and kdesdk installs the submenus? [05:40] that's what I've been trying to figure out [05:42] ceros: Not at all, sorry. I'd guess that the contents of /etc/xdg/menus may be helpful, but I can't be sure. Also, you might find something useful in /usr/share/desktop-directories/ [05:45] thanks persia [05:45] i think i've figured it out now [05:46] ceros: Great! How does it work? (I mostly use GNOME or xfce menus, so I'm curious about KDE). [05:46] persia: they tend to work with kde as well [05:47] it's basically the same [05:47] KDE just implements submenus [05:47] nixternal: Right. For .desktop files I'm confident about KDE: it's more the mechansim for building menus, default search paths, etc. [05:47] LaserJock: Dynamically when the menu gets too large? Is this in /etc/xdg/? [05:48] no [05:48] well, they aren't on until there is something in them [05:48] if I remember right [05:48] persia: let me make sure before i explain [05:48] ceros: Thanks. [05:48] but like there is an Education/Science menu [05:49] LaserJock: That sounds like an improvement. My menus are a little crowded. [05:49] gnome specifically doesn't do that [05:52] persia: About the removal bugs... What would you think about sending the list to devel-discuss to see if anyone objects. [05:52] yeah [05:52] there has always been a bit of a philosophical element to that [05:53] ScottK: I'd think it was a waste of time. Things like exim (replaced by exim4) or 3ddesktop (dead upstream, no ubuntu uploads, beryl is better) are obvious. When I trim a bit, a mail might be more useful. [05:53] i.e. Universe is the place where *everything* in free software can live [05:53] persia: What is gained by removing them? [05:53] Less archive space, for one. [05:53] I think some people in the past haven't wanted any packages removed [05:53] ScottK: less bugs in the archive, less space [05:54] er, more space [05:54] LaserJock: I completely agree with *everything* in free software, but leftovers from package transitions (exim), things that just don't work in ubuntu (modutils), things that were renamed ages ago (laptop-mode), etc. are just cruft. [05:54] If it's buggy and broken, sure, but hard drive space is pretty cheap. [05:54] ScottK: bandwidth is not [05:54] True. [05:54] if nobody is using them and there aren't many of them than both arguments are somewhat mute [05:54] ScottK: But triage time to chase bugs for things that we can't or don't care to support isn't cheap. [05:55] Sure. [05:55] ScottK: And when you're mirroring a complete shedload, it isn't fair for Ubuntu to turn around and say "You now need twice the space to mirror Ubuntu, sorry." [05:55] that is to say, if people are using them enough that there are bug reports you can hardly say "this package is dead" [05:55] I think there is probably some stuff that's obvious cruft and should go, but if people still find stuff useful, just because Debian dumped it, doesn't mean we should. [05:56] They sometimes remove stuff for reasons that would be irrelevant in Ubuntu. [05:56] LaserJock: But they shouldn't be. There were about 25 open bugs being ignored against "laptop-mode" a month or so ago. About 5 of them applied to "laptop-mode-tools", and the rest were because the user installed the wrong package. [05:57] well, I don't know that we should be avoiding triage work by removing packages [05:57] ScottK: Right. Anything not obviously cruft or illegal to distribute (freecraft comes to mind), I'll not ask for removal without seeking a wider opinion. [05:57] LaserJock: Not "avoiding triage work", but rather rendering it unnecessary by reducing user confusion. [05:57] Sounds good to me. [05:57] note that I'm not opposed to removals, I'm just saying that some people (including Mark) think Universe should be a vast playground of all FLOSS [05:58] LaserJock: Right. As mentioned before, I agree with that :) [05:58] hence why we have apt-get.org stuff [05:58] (and open REVU) [05:58] Wah. ScottK, think about it. If Debian don't maintain it, we have to. [05:58] of course...are we willing to maintain this stuff, which debian has removed? [05:58] even though that is largely dead/unmaintainable/uncool stuff [05:58] Hobbsee: As long as there is an upstream, why not? [05:59] persia: because upstream dont package it, and who's going to go and make sure they're all updated [05:59] Hobbsee: and the question is if we *have* to maintain it [05:59] Hobbsee: cruft checkers :) [05:59] LaserJock: well, someone has to, else it rots [05:59] that's the point [05:59] and if debian isnt, then it becomes our problem [05:59] I've heard some people pretty much say that was fine [06:00] somebody might pick it up, who knows :-) [06:00] LaserJock: Now there's where we differ. Rotting is bad - either we should get it up to date (on a best-effort basis), or we don't want it. [06:00] that's were it would be nice to get a general opinion on Universe [06:01] or some direction at least [06:01] Actually I think our quality problems are more with new stuff than old bitrot stuff. [06:01] I agree with persia, for what it's worth. === ScottK unsubbed pythonistas from exaile because the bugmail was just more than I could bear to read. [06:02] There's a balance here and there is no exact right answer. [06:02] I think what persia said about removal of obvious cruft and ask about the rest is reasonable. [06:02] I just don't want there to be a big difference in expectation === ScottK might think that a Sendmail package is a waste since after all we've got a perfectly good Postfix package.... [06:03] Not to mention Exim4... [06:03] And all three are well maintained, so why kill them? [06:04] Which means vi, kate, gedit and every other editor should be killed because emacs exists? === ScottK was joking about the specifics, but one man's cruft due to age/redundancy in the archive is another man's essential package. [06:04] There is the point of choice, and also one of where do we draw the line? [06:05] Speaking of removals.... === ScottK has been wondering what to do about pypy. 1.0.0-1 was FTBFS and so I asked for a sync of 1.0.0-2 since it's changelog promised a fix to FTBFS. Guess what ... Yep.. FTBFS again. [06:06] LaserJock: as to whether it's the place for everything, or it's something that has some level of QA? [06:06] LaserJock: afaics, canonical doesnt care about it to a great extent - as in, they dont support it [06:06] of course, the quality of it does make a large part of the quality of ubuntu, by sheer package count [06:09] ScottK: and your testbuild of pypy worked? === acm_ [n=ameinke@p54BC2411.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ScottK declines to answer on the grounds that the answer might tend to incriminate me. === ScottK decides to add pypy to the TODO due to guilt list. === ScottK will say it isn't any more FTBFS than it was before I asked for the sync. [06:12] haha [06:14] That's on the list for after I convince Hobbsee to upload my gnupg update (which will be after I make it work right). [06:15] hah [06:18] You laugh, but that one wasn't a joke. [06:19] well, i realise that - but you're asking someoen to sponsor an upload, right after you admit to not test building.. [06:20] Sure. I realize the theory isn't perfect, but I figured there was no downside risk on that one. [06:21] persia: the reason why there's submenus installed for kdevelop is because there are entries already specified for kdevelop under /etc/xdg/menus/kde-applications.menu === persia [n=persia@ubuntu/member/persia] has joined #ubuntu-motu [06:21] oh === bersace [n=bersace@did75-13-82-243-217-90.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === persia [n=persia@ubuntu/member/persia] has joined #ubuntu-motu [06:22] persia: === persia is rapidly running out of spare monitors [06:22] persia: the reason why there's submenus installed for kdevelop is because there are entries already specified for kdevelop under /etc/xdg/menus/kde-applications.menu [06:22] ScottK: :) [06:23] ceros: Ah. That makes sense. Thanks. [06:23] persia: yep, they have an extra category which is X-KDE-KDevelopIDE [06:24] which is used with the kdevelop .desktop files [06:24] read up on http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/menu-spec-1.0.html [06:24] and read the section titled "Merging" [06:24] ceros: Right. I know how it's supposed to work, just didn't know how KDE did it. I'm glad to hear it's the sensible way. [06:25] one thing though, the spec says to put custom menu files under $XDG_CONFIG_DIRS/menus/applications-merged/ [06:25] yet kde only offers /etc/xdg/menus/kde-applications-merged [06:25] is it the same for gnome? [06:27] by the way, this announcement was made on the fourth [06:27] this one: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2007/07/msg00000.html [06:37] bah, does anybody know of any good places to get clipart for linux? [06:42] i see that gutsy will use /etc/xdg/menus/applications-merged as far as kdebase-data is concerned [06:42] http://packages.ubuntu.com/cgi-bin/search_contents.pl?searchmode=filelist&word=kdebase-data&version=gutsy&arch=all [06:43] anyone here know if gnome will do the same [06:43] ? [06:44] ceros: what do you mean exactly? [06:45] LaserJock: what i'm trying to do with some packages i'm making is to provide a custom submenu for them [06:45] ok [06:45] for instance if a game has a gui configuration window and the main game launcher [06:45] i want to create a subment and add the appropriate links in that submenu [06:46] won't happen in Gnome [06:46] not even with gnome-menu? [06:46] no [06:46] why? [06:46] because Gnome doesn't like submenus [06:47] i take it you mean the Gnome developers, right? [06:47] and that's not really the way the XDG spec is designed [06:47] it has categories [06:47] and menu items fall into those categories [06:48] but the spec says "By convention, third parties may add new files in this location to create their own sub-menus." [06:49] right, but that doesn't me Gnome has to honor that [06:49] *mean [06:50] hmm, it might work [06:50] so this means that gnome won't have custom submenus [06:50] huh? [06:51] in general Gnome doesn't do that [06:51] but I just tried some stuff locally [06:51] dropping something in ~/.config/menus/applications-merged [06:52] so I guess it's doable, I'm just not sure that Gnome likes people doing that [06:53] well, i would like to create packages that doesn't mess with a user's home path [06:53] exactly [06:53] when you say Gnome, are you referring to the developers or the program? [06:54] developers [06:54] that's why I said it appears to be doable (the programs work) [06:54] ok, well isn't this about Ubuntu and Debian [06:54] ? [06:55] why? [06:55] I thought it was about Gnome's implementation of XDG === calc coughs at debian menu format === LaserJock gives calc a slap on the back [06:56] perhaps i should have stuck around and gotten bill to get rid of the debian spec and transition to xdg completely :\ oh well too late now === calc wrote menu-xdg in hopes bill would get the idea and drop debian menu format [06:57] I'm really not sure why it's kept [06:57] what i'm after is finding a standard way to support custom submenus through different desktop environments [06:57] whether it be Gnome, KDE, Enlightenment, XFCE, etc [06:58] LaserJock: well the main reason is not very many window managers supported and probably still don't support the fdo standard one [06:58] calc: but in general you can convert an xdg menu into many window manager's menus [06:58] LaserJock: however it shouldn't be that hard to write a parser to convert from fdo standard to their window manager format [06:59] LaserJock: true and that is the reason against there still being a debian format instead of just using fdo one [06:59] I think you can do it with openbox, enlightenment, fluxbox I'm pretty sure [06:59] and XFCE4, KDE, and Gnome have XDG support out of the box [07:00] so you're left with not that many you'd need to support [07:00] it'd be at least nice to see debian menu backseated for a failback [07:00] *fallback [07:01] ceros: just try it out, drop a .menu into /etc/xdg/menus/applications-merged/ [07:01] and provide .directory files [07:01] k [07:01] LaserJock: if you are a DD you could get the ball rolling :) [07:01] if you're not, you could just flame until it gets done! [07:01] LaserJock: even if you aren't you could work on it ubuntu and get someone to apply it to debian packages :) [07:01] calc: unfortunately (or is that fortunately?) I'm not [07:01] ajmitch: that doesn't work so well ;) [07:02] well, it doesn't require anything really [07:02] that's my point [07:02] other than DDs not saying "eww, we use debian menu not .desktops" when we give them one [07:02] :-) [07:02] calc: it could be entertaining though [07:02] mhm [07:03] debian doesn't have enough good-quality flamewars [07:03] I suppose I could do a blog/email debian-devel blitz [07:03] ;-) [07:03] LaserJock: i doubt many would complain since most people use modern desktops [07:03] debian-menu is the suXor!!! === bersace_ [n=bersace@did75-13-82-243-217-90.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [07:03] LaserJock: i think its just bill that is stuck in < 2000 ;) [07:03] that should go over well, don't you think? [07:04] to be fair i think that KDE didn't support fdo menu until 3.x [07:04] so it wasn't able to be used until like 3-4 years ago ;) [07:04] calc: 3.2 actually [07:04] we've pushed a fair number of .desktops to Debian [07:04] ceros: ah yea i thought it was after 3. [07:04] er 3.0 [07:04] I think mostly the Debian maintainers have responded well [07:04]