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| === ..[topic/#kubuntu-devel:nixternal] : Welcome to #kubuntu-devel | Merge! http://merges.ubuntu.com | Bugs! https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-team/+packagebugs | ||
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| nixternal | I think we have some broken KDE after todays updates | 02:06 |
|---|---|---|
| DaSkreech | Some broken KDE? | 02:10 |
| nixternal | ya, my Konqui keeps locking up now..but it may not be kdebase related, seeing only one thing was changed, and it has nothing to do with konqui or anything else...just mounting stuff | 02:11 |
| nixternal | and notify-send stopped working | 02:11 |
| DaSkreech | Hal? | 02:11 |
| nixternal | I don't see any hal changes though | 02:12 |
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| n8k99 | nixternal: ping | 03:04 |
| nixternal | pong | 03:04 |
| n8k99 | im gonna be in chicago over the weekend- til tuesday | 03:05 |
| nixternal | next weekend? | 03:05 |
| n8k99 | this coming | 03:05 |
| nixternal | hrmm...I will be out of town with my daughter this weekend :( | 03:06 |
| n8k99 | how bout mon or tues? | 03:06 |
| nixternal | tuesday I will be back around, I have class from 12 to 5 | 03:06 |
| nixternal | maybe monday? | 03:06 |
| n8k99 | daytime? | 03:07 |
| nixternal | possibly | 03:07 |
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| DaSkreech | NIght!@! | 04:23 |
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| gnomefreak | nixternal: im here, im away from home for 4 weeks give or take and fighting connection issues but i think i won, im out for night | 05:16 |
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| nixternal | anyone with gutsy able to reproduce bug 127876 | 06:29 |
| ubotu | Launchpad bug 127876 in kdebase "Konqueror and Adobe Flashplayer - Konqui locks up" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/127876 | 06:29 |
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| saispo | hi | 09:14 |
| saispo | can i suggest something about Depends on kubuntu-desktop ? | 09:15 |
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| mikkael | i know gutsy got a new splash screen, with another color scheme, i saw this on screenshots on some sites, so i upgraded from feisty some time ago (tribe 1) and the new spalsh isnt here :( | 10:04 |
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| Mez | mikkael, sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade && sudo apt-get dselect-upgrade | 10:09 |
| Mez | aka | 10:09 |
| Mez | upgrade ;) | 10:10 |
| Mez | lol | 10:10 |
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| mikkael | that doesnt do the trick | 10:22 |
| mikkael | btw whats dselect-upgrade ? | 10:22 |
| === Hobbsee waves | ||
| Hobbsee | jdong: you know there's a new ktorrent? | 10:24 |
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| Hobbsee | saispo: what was the suggestion? | 10:49 |
| saispo | Hobbsee: hmmm, i think i'm wrong | 10:49 |
| saispo | it's about avahi-autoipd | 10:49 |
| saispo | i think you may push it in Suggests, not in Depends | 10:50 |
| Hobbsee | Riddell: it was my birthday on the 22nd, yes | 10:50 |
| Riddell | Hobbsee: congratulations | 10:50 |
| Hobbsee | ;0 | 10:50 |
| Hobbsee | * :) | 10:50 |
| Hobbsee | Riddell: i'm old now :P | 10:50 |
| Hobbsee | saispo: what makes you say that? | 10:52 |
| saispo | because it creates a default route with a metric 1000 on the first network interfaces | 10:52 |
| Riddell | saispo: we're changing it now | 10:54 |
| saispo | ok | 10:54 |
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| Hobbsee | mhb: are you following the kde discussions about delaying the release of kde 4? | 10:57 |
| Riddell | ou est tonio? | 10:58 |
| Riddell | I wonder if I can just upload kdesudo without him | 10:59 |
| Hobbsee | mhb: currently, the metapackages only contain packages in main. there is talk of this changing, with ubuntu-studio, etc. | 10:59 |
| Hobbsee | mhb: with that being changed, kubuntu kde4 unsupported ( in the way that ubuntu-studio and xubuntu are) is presumably fine. | 10:59 |
| Hobbsee | assuming that apt bug gets fixed, too | 11:00 |
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| contrast83 | Greets, everyone... | 11:38 |
| contrast83 | Can someone help me get KDE 4 running under Gutsy? I followed the instructions here - http://kubuntu.org/announcements/kde4-alpha1.php - and it just crashes my X session and returns me to the login screen when I try logging in to the KDE 4 session. | 11:39 |
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| Riddell | contrast83: try installing alpha 2 packages from feisty-backports | 11:41 |
| mhb | Hobbsee: no, I don't follow those discussions | 11:41 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: is that local problem on my machine or is openoffice broken ? | 11:41 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: I noticed nspluginviewer is broken the same way | 11:41 |
| Tonio_ | I suspect a problem with yesterdays libs upload | 11:41 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: btw, tested kdesudo, everything is just perfect except the missing -n functionnality | 11:41 |
| Riddell | I've not upgraded since tribe 3 | 11:42 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: we should upload kdesudo then, do you want to do it or I? | 11:42 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: I'll do it | 11:43 |
| contrast83 | Riddell: Umm... Ok. So uninstall everything I already installed (I should clarify - I installed from the Gutsy repo, not the one on that page), then add the feisty backports repo and install kde4base-dev package from that? | 11:43 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: I'll also release a tarball on kde-apps this we | 11:43 |
| Riddell | contrast83: if you installed from gutsy then that's alpha 2 | 11:43 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: I'l prepare the package during lunch so that you and Hobbsee can review it today :) | 11:43 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: want me to write the main inclusion report? | 11:44 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: did you clean your code from the debu things or not ? | 11:44 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: would be nice yes ;) | 11:44 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: I did yes, it should be good to merge my branch | 11:44 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: will do thanks :) | 11:44 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: is that ooo problem a known one or should I report ? | 11:44 |
| contrast83 | Riddell: Yeah, that's what I did. I've got 3.91.0 installed, and I followed the directions for setting up a seperate session. | 11:45 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: no idea, ask calc (when he wakes up) | 11:45 |
| Riddell | contrast83: do individual applications work? | 11:45 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: ok | 11:45 |
| contrast83 | Riddell: Sorry, how would I find that out if I can't get into the KDE 4 session? | 11:46 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: why a copying.lib file ? | 11:46 |
| Riddell | contrast83: set the environment variables and run from a command line (under kde 3) | 11:46 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: there is no lib nore 2 licences | 11:46 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: files in admin/ are LGPL | 11:46 |
| mhb | Hobbsee: are those discussions on the internet? | 11:46 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: oops, true :) | 11:46 |
| Riddell | mhb: kde-release mailing list I expect | 11:46 |
| Riddell | mhb: although it was also discussed over a stuffed crust with sweetcorn in Pizza Hut | 11:47 |
| contrast83 | Riddell: Will I have a hard time setting those env. variables back to normal (given I'm somewhat of a newb :-\ )? | 11:47 |
| Riddell | contrast83: no, you'd just close the terminal | 11:47 |
| contrast83 | Oh ok. Thanks, one sec... | 11:48 |
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| contrast83 | Riddell: Yeah, individual programs start | 11:51 |
| contrast83 | Any ideas why the KDE 4 session would be crashing X? | 11:53 |
| Riddell | nope | 11:54 |
| Riddell | hard to debug too | 11:54 |
| Riddell | contrast83: do you have kde4base-dev installed? | 11:54 |
| contrast83 | yeah | 11:54 |
| mhb | Hobbsee: I'm reading through the kde-release-team ML and I'm starting to believe that following those discussions is close to impossible :o) | 11:55 |
| Riddell | try installing xserver-xephyr and running a session in that | 11:55 |
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| mhb | Hobbsee: the whole "gamma" concept sounds rather confusing to me, but it's probably me :o) | 11:56 |
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| contrast83 | Riddell: Was just looking back over the instructions. I misread something, my (stupid) mistake. Thanks anyway for your help though | 12:04 |
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| Riddell | Tonio_: I made another commit to kdesudo you could merge in | 12:21 |
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| Riddell | kdesudo: MainInclusionReportKdesudo | 12:26 |
| Riddell | kiosktool: MainInclusionReportKiosktool | 12:26 |
| Riddell | made | 12:26 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: have you contacted the original author at all? | 12:28 |
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| Tonio_ | Riddell: I did, no response to the mail | 12:36 |
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| Riddell | fair enough | 12:38 |
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| Tonio_ | Riddell: oki, I'll merge your changes | 12:39 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: should my name appear ? I mean I'm not coding on it :) mhb did most of the job | 12:39 |
| Tonio_ | about the copyright file I mean | 12:39 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: you could put in all the copyright lines I put in kdesudo.cpp | 12:40 |
| mhb | Tonio_: that's silly | 12:40 |
| Hobbsee | mhb: it's the one after the alpha and betas | 12:40 |
| Hobbsee | yes, the release team ML | 12:40 |
| Hobbsee | Tonio_: cool | 12:40 |
| Riddell | I missed out stefan since he didn't commit with a useful e-mail | 12:41 |
| Tonio_ | mhb: what's silly ? :) | 12:41 |
| mhb | Tonio_: my work on kdesudo wasn't that great | 12:42 |
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| Tonio_ | mhb: mine wasn't too :) | 12:43 |
| mhb | Hobbsee: the way I understand it "gamma" = final, but not ready for common users | 12:44 |
| Tonio_ | mhb: I just fixed the code needed so that the old code worked on modern sudo | 12:44 |
| Tonio_ | nothing else | 12:44 |
| Hobbsee | mhb: i think so. well, where most of the apps are mostly ready | 12:44 |
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| Tonio_ | Riddell: kio-umountwrapper is in main | 12:48 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: we should change the seeds to install it | 12:48 |
| Riddell | Tonio_: i did | 12:49 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: you rock :) | 12:50 |
| Riddell | :) | 12:50 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: merged your changes and uploading kdesudo | 12:50 |
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| Hobbsee | Tonio_: we have 2.0 final of knm in our repos? | 12:53 |
| Hobbsee | or only a SVN snapshot? | 12:53 |
| Tonio_ | Hobbsee: svn, I have to update the package :) | 12:53 |
| Tonio_ | Hobbsee: feel free to do it | 12:53 |
| Hobbsee | Tonio_: woo! | 12:53 |
| Hobbsee | Tonio_: i'll have a look | 12:53 |
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| Hobbsee | hmmm. this would help if i could actually find the original tarball | 01:00 |
| Hobbsee | oh, here we are | 01:01 |
| Hobbsee | right. apparently the file doesnt exist | 01:04 |
| Hobbsee | Riddell: btw, do you have plans for creating a kde4 metapackage, to bring in all the needed bits? | 01:05 |
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| Riddell | Hobbsee: kde4base seems to do well | 01:10 |
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| Hobbsee | Riddell: ah right | 01:10 |
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| Hobbsee | /build/buildd/krusader-1.80.0/./krusader/Dialogs/krdialogs.cpp:183: error: call of overloaded 'KDialogBase()' is ambiguous | 01:24 |
| Hobbsee | hmmm.... | 01:24 |
| === Hobbsee wonders if that's due to kdesudo patching | ||
| Riddell | I'd expect so | 01:32 |
| Riddell | hasn't that patch been removed? | 01:32 |
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| Hobbsee | i thought so, but...perhaps not | 01:37 |
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| Tonio_ | Riddell: it had been rewrote by _StefanS_ | 01:50 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: I tested it with an amarok build, it worked.... | 01:51 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: so there is still a kdelibs patch for kdesudo | 01:51 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell: we can remove it atm, since the client patch has been removed too | 01:51 |
| _StefanS_ | Tonio_: it has been rewritten | 01:53 |
| _StefanS_ | Tonio_: and I haven't any problems with it | 01:54 |
| _StefanS_ | haven't had any.. | 01:54 |
| _StefanS_ | Hobbsee: are you running a full updated gutsy ? | 01:59 |
| Hobbsee | _StefanS_: yes | 01:59 |
| Hobbsee | _StefanS_: that was on a buildd | 01:59 |
| _StefanS_ | Hobbsee: let me try it | 01:59 |
| _StefanS_ | Hobbsee: is krusader in the package database? | 01:59 |
| Hobbsee | _StefanS_: it's a sync from debian, the source will be on a.u.c, yes | 02:00 |
| _StefanS_ | Hobbsee: so how can I test it? | 02:00 |
| Hobbsee | _StefanS_: | 02:00 |
| Hobbsee | _StefanS_: apt-get source krusader, and build it? | 02:00 |
| _StefanS_ | ok | 02:00 |
| Tonio_ | _StefanS_: nobody says it's your fault :) | 02:00 |
| _StefanS_ | I wasn't sure | 02:00 |
| Tonio_ | _StefanS_: I know it was reuploaded, I did the upload hehe | 02:00 |
| Tonio_ | Hobbsee: is your pbuilder cache up to date ? | 02:01 |
| Tonio_ | Hobbsee: can cause the issue too | 02:01 |
| _StefanS_ | Tonio_: I know ;) - I just curious to fix it, if there's any probs | 02:01 |
| Hobbsee | Tonio_: true, but i didnt build it here. | 02:01 |
| Hobbsee | Tonio_: that's on the launchpad buildds | 02:01 |
| _StefanS_ | Hobbsee: how do you buil dit ? | 02:02 |
| Hobbsee | debuild -rfakeroot, to build it on your system | 02:02 |
| Hobbsee | otherwise with a pbuilder | 02:02 |
| _StefanS_ | Hobbsee: forgot I reinstalled... devscripts, cdbs and stuff is kinda needed ;) | 02:04 |
| Hobbsee | hehe, yes :) | 02:05 |
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| _StefanS_ | Hobbsee: its building.. lets se | 02:05 |
| _StefanS_ | see | 02:05 |
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| _StefanS_ | Hobbsee: argh... I see your point | 02:07 |
| Hobbsee | heh | 02:07 |
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| _StefanS_ | Tonio_: lets just drop this whole kdesudo fade.. I cant really see how we're going to fix it. | 02:07 |
| _StefanS_ | Tonio_: too bad.. but we cant have apps that wont build | 02:08 |
| _StefanS_ | Hobbsee: try doing editing this file for testing: /usr/include/kde/kdialogbase.h : line 279, change 'WFlags f=WType_Popup', to 'WFLags f' and rebuild | 02:16 |
| _StefanS_ | Tonio_: I might have a fix | 02:16 |
| _StefanS_ | Tonio_: I will test with kdebase now | 02:16 |
| _StefanS_ | Hobbsee: krusader builds fine now on my installation. | 02:17 |
| Hobbsee | great | 02:17 |
| _StefanS_ | Hobbsee: try the patch thingy, and let me know how it goes. | 02:18 |
| === Hobbsee is intending to head to bed RSN | ||
| Hobbsee | probably after i look at this mozilla stuff, though | 02:19 |
| _StefanS_ | Hobbsee: alright, I will coordinate with Tonio_ to get the update out then | 02:19 |
| Hobbsee | great, thanks | 02:19 |
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| _StefanS_ | Hobbsee, Tonio_: the updated patch in your mailbox(es) | 02:29 |
| _StefanS_ | in/is in | 02:29 |
| Hobbsee | yay! | 02:29 |
| === _StefanS_ needs some glasses | ||
| Tonio_ | _StefanS_: will test toonight, not before :) | 02:29 |
| _StefanS_ | Tonio_: sweet. | 02:29 |
| _StefanS_ | Tonio_: be sure to bug me if things go bad. btw: the fade and your problem, i'm not sure how we could fix it. I have tried setting 0L as the parent window, but I dont know if that changes anything on your setup .. | 02:30 |
| _StefanS_ | Tonio_: still works on mine no matter what I do.. | 02:30 |
| _StefanS_ | gotta run. | 02:31 |
| viviersf | Riddell, ping | 02:34 |
| Riddell | hi viviersf | 02:37 |
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| === xRaich[o] 2x [n=raichoo@i5387D3DC.versanet.de] has joined #kubuntu-devel | ||
| Tonio_ | _StefanS_: well the point is that I probably won't commit the patch if there is a risk it just makes kdesudo unusable for some people | 02:46 |
| Tonio_ | Riddell, Hobbsee feel free to review kdesudo :) | 02:46 |
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| ScottK | Did somebody actually think through the implications for support of installing gdebi by default in kubuntu-desktop or did that just slip in? | 03:07 |
| stdin | isn't there a gdebi-kde package? | 03:08 |
| ScottK | There is and it's a recommends in kubuntu-desktop for Gutsy. | 03:09 |
| ScottK | Which gets installed by default. | 03:09 |
| Hobbsee | the problem with support and gdebi is? | 03:09 |
| Hobbsee | oh, unofficial packages? | 03:09 |
| === ScottK predicts that people will not easily understand that when they go clickety, clickety using tools that are installed by default, they've just installed some random crack that's even more dangerous than backports. | ||
| ScottK | Yeah. That's the only kind you need it for. | 03:10 |
| Hobbsee | let us remove dpkg -i too then | 03:10 |
| Hobbsee | sometimes test debs, etc | 03:10 |
| ScottK | Sure, but you know what you are doing. | 03:11 |
| ScottK | Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I think making installing random software from outside the packaging system too easy is not a good idea. | 03:11 |
| === jpetso [n=jpetso@chello062178070021.24.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #kubuntu-devel | ||
| ScottK | It kind of gets past the entire point of having a distribution. | 03:11 |
| Hobbsee | yes, but curbing users isnt a brilliant idea either | 03:12 |
| mhb | ScottK: IIRC, gdebi-kde and gdebi shows a warning | 03:12 |
| Hobbsee | there are positives and negatives | 03:12 |
| ScottK | Not including gdebi in the repos would be curbing the users. Not installing it by default means you have to take a positive decision to wonder off the reservation. | 03:13 |
| ScottK | mhb: People don't read the warnings. They just clickety, clickety. | 03:13 |
| mhb | ScottK: get packing. In order to solve this, we're sending you on an around-the-world trip to educate users. No expenses paid. | 03:15 |
| ScottK | Heh. | 03:15 |
| ScottK | I think I'm also particularly annoyed as upgrading to Gutsy changed system behavior in a negative way for me (not that it would matter to 99% of people), but I liked that clicking on a .deb in Konqueror fired off ark. | 03:16 |
| === ScottK spends enough time triaging bugs caused by automatix already. | ||
| ScottK | OK. I guess it's been thought through and decided. | 03:17 |
| ScottK | Back to work. | 03:17 |
| mhb | ScottK: well, if they ignore the warning, we cannot do anything else but believe they know what they're doing | 03:18 |
| mhb | ScottK: we had several bug reports about not being able to install packages this way. | 03:18 |
| jdong | ScottK: lol you've seen the bottom of the forum right? | 03:19 |
| ScottK | Well that's a good reason to have it in the repositories. | 03:19 |
| ScottK | jdong: No. | 03:19 |
| jdong | it's gone now :) | 03:19 |
| jdong | but was hilarious while it lasted | 03:19 |
| ScottK | What was that? | 03:19 |
| jdong | we added a "most searched keywords" statistic | 03:19 |
| jdong | and someone search-bombed "AUTOMATIX SUCKS" | 03:19 |
| ScottK | Ah. | 03:20 |
| Hobbsee | jdong: hahahaha, nice | 03:20 |
| === ScottK wonders why you removed it then? | ||
| jdong | ScottK: if we left it there for too long we would've gotten complaints... | 03:20 |
| ScottK | Anything that sigkills dpkg does. | 03:20 |
| mhb | ScottK: and of course you can set it to open with Ark, can't you? | 03:20 |
| mhb | ScottK: I'm pretty sure you can do that in KDE | 03:20 |
| Hobbsee | ScottK: you have heard abotu the upgrader and automatix and friends, havent you? | 03:20 |
| ScottK | Yes. I can and I did and I also realize that's just my own personal bit. | 03:21 |
| ScottK | Hobbsee: Are you saying that by including gdebi in a default install you think it make it less likely those even more crackish solutions will get used? | 03:21 |
| Hobbsee | ScottK: not necessarily | 03:22 |
| ScottK | OK. Not sure what your point was then? | 03:22 |
| Hobbsee | ScottK: but for things like virtualbox, where it's not in commercial yet | 03:22 |
| Hobbsee | oh, it was just a comment in reference to your comment about the automatix bugs | 03:22 |
| ScottK | Ah. | 03:22 |
| ScottK | OK. | 03:22 |
| ScottK | Good reasons to have it in the repos, but I still fear the consequences of having it installed by default. | 03:23 |
| mhb | ScottK: one more thing: you should have thought before the implementation of gdebi-kde started. Not including it in the default install could make the author unhappy. | 03:23 |
| mhb | ScottK: *thought about it | 03:23 |
| jdong | Hobbsee: thanks for headsup on new ktorrent... do you know if Tonio_ is planning to package it? | 03:23 |
| jdong | I don't want to duplicate effort again :D | 03:23 |
| Hobbsee | jdong: no idea, havent heard | 03:23 |
| ScottK | Well I didn't know it was installed by default until I clicked on a .deb and it fired off. | 03:24 |
| Hobbsee | mhb: then again, we had people in #kubuntu bitching about the bash --> dash change, a full year after it had been implemented... | 03:24 |
| ScottK | Still comes up. | 03:24 |
| jdong | Hobbsee: I think we should spice things up.... pick a different /bin/sh every release :D | 03:25 |
| ScottK | mhb: speaking of, do you have a reduced test case for the python-kde problem that I can use to replicate it? | 03:25 |
| Hobbsee | jdong: hehe | 03:25 |
| jdong | tbh, of all the shells that act as /bin/sh emulators, bash seems to be the WORST at compliance | 03:25 |
| ScottK | Maybe put a random number generator behind the /bin/sh symlink and have it change on every boot? | 03:25 |
| jdong | ScottK: lol exactly... | 03:25 |
| jdong | sh candidates are already loaded in debconf | 03:26 |
| mhb | ScottK: no, but I'll create one right up | 03:27 |
| ScottK | mhb: Great. I diffed the works/doesn't work versions and I got a few hints. | 03:28 |
| mhb | ScottK: I finished it, uploading to that bug | 03:37 |
| ScottK | OK. I'll have a look. | 03:37 |
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| ScottK | mhb: Which bug? | 03:40 |
| mhb | bug 117731 I guess | 03:41 |
| ubotu | Launchpad bug 117731 in python-kde3 "Python crashes after attaching pty to a konsole kpart" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/117731 | 03:41 |
| ScottK | mhb: Thanks. Turns out konqueror was doing too good a job at caching my content. | 03:42 |
| === marseillai_ is now known as marseillai | ||
| ScottK | mhb: I see you're determined to make sure I keep gdebi-kde installed ;-) | 03:44 |
| mhb | ScottK: no, it's gdebi-kde independent | 03:45 |
| mhb | ScottK: perhaps I forgot to remove the "import" clause, feel free to do so | 03:46 |
| ScottK | Ah. I didn't look at the code. I'll do that. Thanks. | 03:46 |
| ScottK | It did crash, so I've marked it triaged... | 03:46 |
| mhb | ScottK: uploaded the fixed gd-test.py script | 03:52 |
| ScottK | THanks. | 03:52 |
| mhb | you're welcome, thanks for working on it | 03:52 |
| manchicken_ | Well poop.. The Kate treeview plugin, which I successfully packaged, doesn't work with anything but local files. | 03:59 |
| manchicken_ | I'll stick that in the almost-but-not-quite-useful list. | 03:59 |
| kwwii | don't worry, nobody but a developer needs an extra window with a list of files | 03:59 |
| kwwii | the fact that we ship kate like that makes me not use it | 04:00 |
| Riddell | kwwii: how would you prefer it? | 04:00 |
| manchicken_ | kwwii: I'm not working on these plugin packages for anybody but myself right now :) | 04:00 |
| manchicken_ | kwwii: I know a lot of folks wish kate was simplified, and I don't mind that idea at all. I just think we should have more developer plugins for it, too. | 04:01 |
| Riddell | simplified how? | 04:01 |
| kwwii | Riddell: without the file view on the left | 04:02 |
| manchicken_ | Riddell: They don't like having all the document listing, file viewers, etc. | 04:02 |
| jjesse | i don't like having the document view on by default for kate either | 04:02 |
| Riddell | then you couldn't see what files you had opened | 04:02 |
| Riddell | it would be like konqueror without the tabs | 04:02 |
| kwwii | it is a simple text editor, let's keep it that way be default | 04:02 |
| manchicken | That is the rub. Kate is MDI. I think some folks wish it were SDI. | 04:03 |
| mhb | isn't kwrite for that? | 04:03 |
| manchicken | kedit ;) | 04:03 |
| kwwii | 99% of people do not open more than one file at a time anyway | 04:03 |
| manchicken | kwwii: You do know that "kate" states for "KDE Advanced Text Editor," don't you? :P | 04:03 |
| kwwii | perhaps I should just be using kwrite though | 04:03 |
| manchicken | It's not a simple text editor :) | 04:04 |
| manchicken | It's an advanced text editor. | 04:04 |
| manchicken | heh | 04:04 |
| kwwii | manchicken: nope, didn't know that and really don't care | 04:04 |
| mhb | kwwii: I think write == kate - tabs - other advanced functionality | 04:04 |
| mhb | kwrite | 04:04 |
| kwwii | mhb: guess you are right | 04:04 |
| Hobbsee | kwwii: i *regularly* open multiple files at a time. even in non-kubuntu stuff. | 04:05 |
| kwwii | I was used to SUSE pushing kate in your face as the text editor | 04:05 |
| kwwii | Hobbsee: however you, my dear, are a geek :p | 04:05 |
| manchicken | kwwii: They really mistreated and abused you over there, huh? | 04:05 |
| Hobbsee | kwwii: heh | 04:05 |
| Hobbsee | kwwii: is that a good thing or a bad thing? | 04:05 |
| kwwii | manchicken: it was horrible, people coming in my office to make sure I was using kate :-( | 04:06 |
| manchicken | kwwii: It's okay buddy. It's okay. | 04:06 |
| manchicken | kwwii: We can get through this, *sob*, together. | 04:06 |
| kwwii | manchicken: don't worry, my therapist says I am getting better | 04:06 |
| manchicken | kwwii: Good for you man. | 04:06 |
| manchicken | heh | 04:06 |
| manchicken | Which all reminds me, Bridge to Terabithia sucked. | 04:07 |
| manchicken | kwwii: Don't let your girls watch that movie. | 04:07 |
| manchicken | kwwii: You will get nothing but tears. | 04:07 |
| kwwii | lol | 04:07 |
| kwwii | my son said it was boring | 04:07 |
| manchicken | (was it you who had girls?) | 04:07 |
| manchicken | Ah, it was alle, wasn't it? | 04:07 |
| kwwii | exactly | 04:07 |
| ScottK | manchicken: Might have been me. I have 3. | 04:07 |
| kwwii | I only have one son | 04:07 |
| manchicken | There ya go. | 04:08 |
| manchicken | kwwii: Yeah, for boys it was boring I bet. | 04:08 |
| manchicken | kwwii: The girl died of stupidity. | 04:08 |
| kwwii | manchicken: sounds like you have seen it several times | 04:09 |
| manchicken | kwwii: No, I had to argue to my wife that it was a terrible movie. | 04:09 |
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| kwwii | hehe, luckily my wife doesn't watch many movies | 04:09 |
| manchicken | dh_make has got to be the coolest program ever. | 04:10 |
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| kwwii | GEEK ALARM!!! | 04:12 |
| kwwii | oh, wait, this is a devel channel anyway | 04:12 |
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| manchicken | I'm really hoping this kate ctags plugin works. | 04:13 |
| manchicken | I could really use a ctags impl in kate. | 04:13 |
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| === ..[topic/#kubuntu-devel:Riddell] : Welcome to #kubuntu-devel | Merge! http://merges.ubuntu.com | Bugs! https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-team/+packagebugs | k3b 1.0.3 packager needed | ||
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| ryanakca | hmmm. 'grab-merge.sh qcomicbook | 04:14 |
| manchicken_ | Stupid wireless card. | 04:14 |
| ryanakca | hmmm. 'grab-merge.sh qcomicbook' should grab the debian and ubuntu files for the merge, right? | 04:14 |
| Riddell | never heard of such a script | 04:14 |
| manchicken_ | This house we're trying to buy has a nice open floor plan, with the living room and the office sharing a wall. | 04:14 |
| manchicken_ | It'll be nice to finally be able to run wires. | 04:15 |
| Hobbsee | ryanakca: yes | 04:15 |
| Hobbsee | Riddell: it's to do with MoM. | 04:15 |
| ryanakca | Riddell: http://merges.ubuntu.com/grab-merge.sh | 04:16 |
| ryanakca | Hobbsee: ok. Any guesses why it's not grabing the files? | 04:16 |
| Hobbsee | ryanakca: because the merge isnt listed on mom, i suspect | 04:17 |
| === ryanakca points to qcomicbook on http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe-manual.html | ||
| ryanakca | I guess I'll just have to dget them manually :) | 04:18 |
| manchicken_ | And of course the ctags plugin does not work. | 04:18 |
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| _StefanS_ | Tonio_: thats fair enough :) | 04:25 |
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| === ScottK sets his laptop on a bag of ice so it won't overheat while test building a new kdebase. | ||
| ScottK | Not kidding. | 04:58 |
| Hobbsee | ..... | 04:59 |
| yuriy | ScottK: how about a box fan or something? | 05:00 |
| ScottK | Well the fundamental problem is Bug 127772. Hopefully it gets fixed. | 05:00 |
| ubotu | Launchpad bug 127772 in linux-source-2.6.22 "CPU fan no longer runs after upgrade to Gutsy" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/127772 | 05:00 |
| ScottK | As laptops go it's reasonably cool, so it runs fine unless I'm building a big package. | 05:01 |
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| Hobbsee | haha, otherwise it does as mine does, probably | 05:02 |
| Hobbsee | cant you just force the fan on in the bios? | 05:02 |
| ScottK | I have ice. I don't have a box fan that wouldn't completely re-arrange my "carefully compiled" stacks of paper in the office. | 05:06 |
| === ScottK listens in on the kernel team meeting on #ubuntu-meeting and waits for the "Please fix $MYPETBUG" section of the meeting. | ||
| mhb | ScottK: there is such a section? No wonder my kernel bugs never get fixed :o) | 05:11 |
| === ScottK expects a long wait. | ||
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| nixternal | ScottK: I am noticing the same issue right now with my laptop | 05:23 |
| nixternal | it is running 55c right now, but I guarantee it is on its way to 65c eventually | 05:23 |
| nixternal | and this just started | 05:23 |
| ScottK | Cool. Bug 127772 woulc use confirming. | 05:23 |
| ubotu | Launchpad bug 127772 in linux-source-2.6.22 "CPU fan no longer runs after upgrade to Gutsy" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/127772 | 05:23 |
| nixternal | normally it is between 45c and 48c | 05:24 |
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| manchicken_ | nixternal: Do you sync your palm using bluetooth? | 05:25 |
| nixternal | nope...can't afford blue tooth :) | 05:27 |
| nixternal | usb | 05:27 |
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| nixternal | brb...gotta reboot this laptop after updates...says I am on battery power for some strange reason | 05:27 |
| manchicken_ | kword needs better templates. | 05:32 |
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| nixternal | manchicken_: for kword templates, check www.kde-files.org | 05:41 |
| manchicken_ | Why is openoffice acting so strangely? | 05:45 |
| manchicken_ | It just shows its splash screen and then sucks CPU and memory. | 05:46 |
| manchicken_ | I'll try running it under the command-line and see if that helps. | 05:50 |
| manchicken_ | Yeah, openoffice.org is totally hosed for me. | 05:54 |
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| ScottK | manchicken_: Hobbsee mentioned some trouble with it on #ubuntu-devel a while ago, but no new uploads recently to explain it. | 06:01 |
| ScottK | You might ping calc over there and see. | 06:01 |
| nixternal | hrmm...it seems the open office stuff just started doing this for me...I used it within the last few days I think | 06:07 |
| ScottK | nixternal: libgtk2.0-0 seems to be broken at the moment. | 06:10 |
| nixternal | well, I think the libgtk also fixed some other things as well :) | 06:10 |
| nixternal | you break some, you fix some | 06:10 |
| nixternal | or is that you win some, you lose some? | 06:10 |
| nixternal | hehe | 06:10 |
| === ScottK is just glad there's another hard drive for the laptop with Feisty on it. | ||
| nixternal | well, today my cpu is staying 48c to 55c, which is typical between use and abuse, but I did just see a 60c here a minute or so ago, when I started up OOo to be exact | 06:11 |
| nixternal | but I haven't heard my fan kick in at all | 06:12 |
| ScottK | Well do that about 5 times and then see what happens... | 06:12 |
| nixternal | was there something that would have caused this just recently? | 06:12 |
| nixternal | I just noticed it yesterday for the first time | 06:12 |
| Riddell | lots of people are complaining about openoffice | 06:13 |
| gnomefreak | fan issue after kernel update? | 06:13 |
| nixternal | I didn't see a kernel update yesterday though...unless it has been occurring and I just now noticed it | 06:13 |
| nixternal | however, the temps right now are normal compared to yesterday | 06:13 |
| gnomefreak | i updated 190+ yesterday as i was away all week and ther ewas a 2.6.22-8.*update but not sure when that was | 06:14 |
| nixternal | yup, as soon as I open anything OOo, it goes up to 60c | 06:14 |
| nixternal | and the fan seems to be running, just not full speed | 06:15 |
| mhb | err, how can you easily measure the temperature? | 06:15 |
| nixternal | I use Kima | 06:15 |
| gnomefreak | what are the OO.o complaints? it seems to work fine here | 06:15 |
| nixternal | it is a kicker applet | 06:15 |
| nixternal | !info kima | 06:15 |
| ubotu | Package kima does not exist in feisty, feisty-seveas | 06:15 |
| nixternal | !info kima gutsy | 06:15 |
| ubotu | kima: kicker monitoring applet. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.7.3.2-0ubuntu1 (gutsy), package size 114 kB, installed size 448 kB | 06:15 |
| nixternal | OK, it is in the gutsy repos...so you can either rebuild it for feisty, or just download it from kde-apps | 06:16 |
| mhb | nixternal: what makes you think I run feisty? | 06:16 |
| mhb | nixternal: anyway, thanks for the tip | 06:17 |
| nixternal | well, that was a just in case...I didn't think you ran it, but posted the info just in case :) | 06:17 |
| nixternal | nobody should be running feisty in this channel...if they are...well then ;) | 06:17 |
| gnomefreak | nixternal: feisty with a gutsy chroot but i also run gutsy with feisty chroot | 06:17 |
| manchicken_ | What the hell is up with people trying to discourage others from trying and using amd64? | 06:18 |
| nixternal | manchicken_: cluelessness | 06:18 |
| nixternal | I was discouraged as well | 06:18 |
| manchicken_ | I think it's just a bunch of sods who weren't clever enough to figure it out, so now they see it as their life's mission to discourage anybody from using it. | 06:18 |
| nixternal | you want to know why? | 06:18 |
| manchicken_ | Why's that? | 06:18 |
| nixternal | because flash won't work unless you setup a 32bit chroot | 06:18 |
| gnomefreak | manchicken_: 64bit for gutsy has come a long way but as for 64 feisty its a beast to get gnash/and java working (i dont discourage anything) these are just thoughts | 06:19 |
| nixternal | whoopy-freakin'-doo | 06:19 |
| manchicken_ | That's not true at all. | 06:19 |
| manchicken_ | gnomefreak: I've been using amd64 since edgy, and it works just fine. | 06:19 |
| nixternal | same here | 06:19 |
| manchicken_ | I even have had flash, java, codecs, all that stuff. | 06:19 |
| manchicken_ | And I didn't even have to set up a chroot. | 06:19 |
| nixternal | and the java works as well, as I have written code on the 64bit setup | 06:19 |
| manchicken_ | I've never had to set up a 32-bit chroot. | 06:19 |
| manchicken_ | Ever. | 06:20 |
| nixternal | EVAH! | 06:20 |
| gnomefreak | manchicken_: gnash <0.8.0 doesnt work wortha crap and >java 1.4 doesnt work either unless you go with upstream versions and that is un supported ;) | 06:20 |
| manchicken_ | I just can't use flash in konqueror (boo hoo). | 06:20 |
| nixternal | I only use my 64bit rig for packaging and DVDs | 06:20 |
| === ScottK is confused. Is no Flash a feature or a bug? | ||
| nixternal | gnash 0.8.x is sweet I must say | 06:20 |
| gnomefreak | ScottK: feature :) | 06:21 |
| nixternal | hehe | 06:21 |
| manchicken_ | gnomefreak: Most folks are using the non-free flash player. It works just fine under amd64 kubuntu if you install ia32 stuff. | 06:21 |
| nixternal | I wanted to say that :( | 06:21 |
| gnomefreak | nixternal: it is :) | 06:21 |
| manchicken_ | I haven't been able to get gnash to work well. | 06:21 |
| manchicken_ | And when it does have problems, it kills my X server. | 06:21 |
| nixternal | oh, I need to get ready for school..but b4 I go..does anyone have experience using a webcam with Kubuntu? | 06:21 |
| gnomefreak | manchicken_: non-free flash is unsupported that is why people say what they say | 06:21 |
| nixternal | my daughter wants me to get one | 06:21 |
| manchicken_ | gnomefreak: But the non-free flash plugin is the one that everybody's using. | 06:22 |
| manchicken_ | nixternal: No, I haven't. I hear there are only a select few that work with GNU/Linux. | 06:22 |
| nixternal | I am using it here now on my lappy since gnash wasn't any good prior to 0.8.x | 06:22 |
| manchicken_ | nixternal: System76 has a lappy with one in it. | 06:22 |
| nixternal | ahh ya they do...I am probably going to pick up the Logitech one at Best Buy, since it seems they are pretty well supported with Linux | 06:23 |
| gnomefreak | sort of yes and we can fix minor things with our package if at all im not disagreeing with you i am answering your question | 06:23 |
| nixternal | manchicken_: didn't you know? it is GNU + Linux now...at least that is what RMS is saying now :) | 06:23 |
| manchicken_ | gnomefreak: But then that wouldn't have anything to do with amd64, that would be a system-wide thing. | 06:23 |
| gnomefreak | nixternal: we are making it better every release :) although im one of those people :( | 06:23 |
| manchicken_ | nixternal: He still writes it GNU/Linux | 06:24 |
| gnomefreak | manchicken_: ubuntu doesnt package 64bit flash at all that is why they tell people to use 32bit | 06:24 |
| manchicken_ | gnomefreak: Nobody packages 64-bit non-free flash. It doesn't exist. | 06:24 |
| nixternal | manchicken_: ya..but he said it in the gplv3 release, and then I have seen a couple of his other talks on YouTube/Google Video where he is saying it with the + now | 06:24 |
| nixternal | Penguin SWV is supposedly working on that as we speak | 06:25 |
| manchicken_ | nixternal: That's because saying "gnu plus linux" is easier than saying "gnu slash linux" | 06:25 |
| manchicken_ | nixternal: I just say "gnu linux" | 06:25 |
| nixternal | same here | 06:25 |
| nixternal | and people complain about that, but not "Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic Edition" | 06:25 |
| manchicken_ | Yeah. | 06:26 |
| manchicken_ | It's silly what people complain about. | 06:26 |
| nixternal | hell, Microsoft has to use 2 boxes just to get that all on there :) | 06:26 |
| nixternal | OK, gotta run...Philosophy class is calling me...and I am sure I am barely hanging on in that class as it is | 06:27 |
| === allee [n=ach@lapex-mcallee.mpe.mpg.de] has joined #kubuntu-devel | ||
| manchicken_ | Wuddup allee? | 06:31 |
| === ScottK goes for more ice. | ||
| Riddell | "/kmail/kmpopfiltercnfrmdlg.h:82: error: call of overloaded 'KDialogBase()' is ambiguous" | 07:19 |
| Riddell | mm, shouldn't that dialogue stuff be fixed? | 07:19 |
| Riddell | or is autopkgtest running behind? | 07:19 |
| fdoving | so.. should packages in universe have the motu list as maintainer, is that what debuild is bitching about? | 07:23 |
| fdoving | i can't just change it to my self.. it seems. | 07:23 |
| fdoving | Riddell: did you get my message about the patch on kdebase that should be removed now that kio-umountwrapper is in main? | 07:24 |
| ScottK | fdoving: If you have an ubuntu.com e-mail address you can make it you (kubuntu.org too). | 07:25 |
| Riddell | fdoving: yes, I did that | 07:25 |
| ScottK | debuild will still bitch, but you can ignore it. | 07:25 |
| fdoving | Riddell: nice. thanks. | 07:25 |
| Riddell | fdoving: yes, Maintainer should be MOTU address and Original-Maintainer you | 07:26 |
| Riddell | although I don't always stick to that, mainly because I can never be bothered to look it up | 07:26 |
| fdoving | Riddell: when the change is a small fix i find that strange.. but i'll change it anyway. original maintainer is debian kde extras team, which does both ubuntu and debian package for this specific one. | 07:27 |
| ScottK | Riddell: I have a good hint for you on solving the KDE update-manager bug. Do you have a moment to discuss? | 07:29 |
| ScottK | maybe mhb... | 07:30 |
| ScottK | mhb: How's your C/C++? | 07:30 |
| fdoving | what bug # is that? | 07:31 |
| ScottK | fdoving: Bug #117731 is the one with the reduced test case. | 07:31 |
| ubotu | Launchpad bug 117731 in python-kde3 "Python crashes after attaching pty to a konsole kpart" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/117731 | 07:31 |
| Riddell | ScottK: oh? | 07:32 |
| ScottK | The deal is that in edgy-updates the file konsole/konsole/konsole_part.h got added as a patch to the python-kde3 package | 07:32 |
| Riddell | yes | 07:32 |
| mhb | ScottK: not bad, I'd say | 07:33 |
| ScottK | It looks like the merge from edgy to feisty for python-kde3 was done based on what was in edgy, not edgy updates. | 07:33 |
| ScottK | So I went through the changes in edgy updates and they've all (eventually) gotten incorporated. | 07:33 |
| ScottK | The one lingering issue is that konsole_part.h is now shipped in the konsole package | 07:34 |
| ScottK | But it's been modified. | 07:34 |
| Riddell | mm hmm | 07:35 |
| ScottK | In particular a public function name is missing from the current one (as best I can read C, which is not at all). | 07:35 |
| Riddell | which name? | 07:36 |
| ScottK | virtual bool setPtyFd(int); | 07:36 |
| ScottK | Seemed relevant. | 07:36 |
| ScottK | Dunno though. I know zippo C/C++ | 07:36 |
| mhb | eh? | 07:36 |
| mhb | which is pretty much the method that causes the crash | 07:36 |
| mhb | ain't it? | 07:36 |
| fdoving | the patch for that is in python-kde3. | 07:36 |
| ScottK | Hmmm | 07:36 |
| Riddell | ScottK: setPtyFd() is in kubuntu_86_konsole_pty.diff | 07:37 |
| Riddell | which adds it to konsole_part.h in kdebase | 07:38 |
| ScottK | Urgh. | 07:38 |
| ScottK | OK. | 07:38 |
| Riddell | although I agree it's probably that method which causes the crash | 07:39 |
| ScottK | In any case, I think it might well be fruitful for someone who actually understands the code to go through the edgy-updates and current versions (as patched) of the file. | 07:39 |
| Riddell | ScottK: you can try http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/konsole/kdebase_pty_test.cc and see if that causes the issue | 07:39 |
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| ScottK | mhb already got me a good python test case (in the bug above). | 07:40 |
| mhb | a C++ one is good for ruling out kdebase infection | 07:41 |
| === ScottK pleads ignorance of all things C++ including how to run the test. | ||
| Riddell | it should have instructions at the top | 07:42 |
| ScottK | compiling yes, running no. | 07:43 |
| Riddell | ./a.out | 07:43 |
| ryanakca | Riddell: where was the cache for ksplash (to see the gutsy ksplash theme instead of the old feisty one) | 07:43 |
| Riddell | ryanakca: /home/jr/.kde/share/apps/ksplash/cache/Moodin/kubuntu/ | 07:44 |
| ryanakca | Riddell: ah, thanks :) | 07:44 |
| mhb | ScottK: does it crash? | 07:45 |
| ScottK | mhb: Still getting it. There's a quick way for you to find out ;-) | 07:46 |
| fdoving | that app test-app works for me. | 07:46 |
| fdoving | says: (child) hello world 2 | 07:47 |
| fdoving | and gives me a commandprompt. | 07:47 |
| mhb | ScottK: well, my system has 1GB RAM, so I'm not affected | 07:47 |
| ScottK | Ah | 07:47 |
| mhb | fdoving: it affects only some systems, low memory ones mostly | 07:47 |
| fdoving | mhb: oh, so both my 2G systems will survive i guess. | 07:48 |
| ScottK | OTOH if you can look at memory usage when you run it, you'd know if you'd replicated it as the observable on low memory systems is out of memory. | 07:48 |
| === ryanakca looks. low memory <= 512mb ? | ||
| Riddell | yes | 07:50 |
| ryanakca | hehe | 07:50 |
| fdoving | http://rafb.net/p/H79bKo49.html | 07:50 |
| === ryanakca runs out to buy some ram | ||
| === ScottK has 256MB on the development laptop. | ||
| fdoving | that's what a simple 'valgrind ./a.out' says. | 07:50 |
| Riddell | fdoving: doesn't look so bad | 07:52 |
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| mhb | ScottK: what's the problem? Why can't you test it? | 07:57 |
| ScottK | Because I am in a completely different part of the universe than I'm used to working in. | 07:57 |
| === ScottK started looking at a Python bug and is now stuck dealing with C++ stuff he's no idea at all about. | ||
| === ScottK needs the step by step for dummies version of what to do. | ||
| fdoving | ScottK: can you run a ./a.out? - i can publish the a.out if you trust me not to compile a rm -rf / program :) | 07:58 |
| ScottK | I should if that's all I have to do. | 07:59 |
| fdoving | or, i could give you the commands in a numbered order. | 07:59 |
| ScottK | Whichever is easier for you. | 07:59 |
| fdoving | 1. wget http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/konsole/kdebase_pty_test.cc | 07:59 |
| ScottK | I've got that file. | 07:59 |
| fdoving | 2. moc-qt3 kdebase_pty_test.cc > kdebase_pty_test.moc | 07:59 |
| fdoving | 3. g++ kdebase_pty_test.cc -I/usr/include/kde/ -I/usr/include/qt3 -lutil -lqt-mt -lkdecore -lkdeui | 08:00 |
| fdoving | 4. ./a.out | 08:00 |
| ScottK | moc-qt3 command not found. | 08:00 |
| ScottK | I did install moc, but it doesn't provide that. | 08:00 |
| fdoving | sudo aptitude install qt3-dev-tools | 08:00 |
| ScottK | OK. | 08:01 |
| ScottK | Installing. | 08:01 |
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| ScottK | OK. THat worked | 08:02 |
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| mhb | ScottK: does that mean you get no error? | 08:04 |
| ScottK | No it means I could run step 2. | 08:04 |
| ScottK | clearly I need some more -dev packages. | 08:05 |
| fdoving | yeah. | 08:05 |
| fdoving | kdelibs4-dev and libqt3-mt-dev | 08:06 |
| ScottK | OK. Getting those. | 08:06 |
| ScottK | Yeah. 56 newliy installed. | 08:07 |
| ScottK | On the off chance it's useful, the diff of konsole_part.h from gutsy to the edgy-updates version is http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/31130/ | 08:09 |
| ScottK | While everything else installs. | 08:09 |
| Riddell | ScottK: diff in kdebase or python-kde3? | 08:11 |
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| ScottK | The diff from the konsole_part.h file from Gutsy kdebase to edgy-updates konsole_part.h file from python-kde3. | 08:13 |
| ScottK | Ran the program. No crash. | 08:13 |
| ScottK | It popped open a window (child) hello world2 | 08:13 |
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| mhb | ScottK: thanks | 08:14 |
| ScottK | (parent) and (child) hello world1 are on the konsole. | 08:14 |
| ScottK | Your python test case still fails reliably. | 08:15 |
| fdoving | where is the python testcase? | 08:16 |
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| ScottK | https://launchpad.net/bugs/117731 | 08:16 |
| ubotu | Launchpad bug 117731 in python-kde3 "Python crashes after attaching pty to a konsole kpart" [High,Triaged] | 08:16 |
| ScottK | Attached to the bug. | 08:16 |
| fdoving | k, sounds like a python-kde3 problem then. | 08:16 |
| fdoving | kdebase must be good as the cpp version works. | 08:16 |
| ScottK | OK. | 08:17 |
| Riddell | does valgrind work on python? | 08:17 |
| ScottK | Dunno. Never tried it. | 08:17 |
| fdoving | In file tools/qgvector.cpp, line 176: Out of memory | 08:17 |
| mhb | Riddell: is adept using the setptyfd() method? | 08:17 |
| fdoving | hmm. | 08:17 |
| Riddell | mhb: no | 08:19 |
| Riddell | it just run stuff with libap then dpkg commands for what's shown on the konsole | 08:20 |
| ScottK-laptop | You can run python through valgrind. It's, of course, very slow. | 08:21 |
| fdoving | looks like you need to do some modifications for it to work properly: http://svn.python.org/projects/python/trunk/Misc/README.valgrind | 08:21 |
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| ScottK | Well it looks to me like it's hanging in Konsole, not the python. | 08:29 |
| ScottK | Give me a minute to kill it and I'll provide possible evidence. | 08:29 |
| fdoving | why does the cpp test work then? | 08:32 |
| Riddell | python may be doing something different with the pty it passes to the c++ bit | 08:33 |
| ScottK | The OOM killer is stil thrashing that box. | 08:34 |
| ScottK | See http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/31138/ - When is hit the kdecore line hard drive usage went through the roof (system was immediately deep into swap). | 08:37 |
| ScottK | is/it | 08:38 |
| ScottK | fdoving: The way I read the python README for valgrind, it'll miss some leaks. That's not our problem here. It's not a leak, but continuing allocation. | 08:42 |
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| ScottK-laptop | valgrind finished running. The final report is http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/31140/ | 08:43 |
| Riddell | doesn't look like much is lost | 08:44 |
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| Riddell | although I'd expect that since it seems to recover itself if it doesn't run out of memory | 08:44 |
| ScottK | Right, but look how much is in use? | 08:46 |
| ScottK | It's not losing memory, just grabbing it. | 08:46 |
| Riddell | mm, right, 500MB, bit greedy | 08:47 |
| ScottK | And it was still going when I killed it. | 08:47 |
| fdoving | so.. some kind of loop somewhere? | 08:52 |
| ScottK | That's what I'm guessing. | 08:53 |
| ScottK | And I'm guessing it's in the Konsole code somewhere. | 08:54 |
| fdoving | from the diff i didn't see any obvious loops. | 08:54 |
| fdoving | in konsole_part then? | 08:54 |
| ScottK | Not sure why Riddell's test case failed though. | 08:54 |
| ScottK | Right. | 08:54 |
| Riddell | might gdb help? | 08:55 |
| Riddell | not sure how well that works with python | 08:55 |
| ScottK | It does look to me like both kdebase and python-kde3 patches patch in the setPtyFd function in the konsole_part. Could that cause a problem? | 08:55 |
| ScottK | There is a -dbg package for python-kde3, not sure how to work it. | 08:56 |
| Riddell | yes they both include it through patches, that's not going to cause a problem any more than having it natively does | 08:57 |
| ScottK | OK. | 08:57 |
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| fdoving | Riddell: could you upload | 09:01 |
| ScottK | As nearly as I can determine, what gets passed to the konsole_part is setPtyFd(10). | 09:01 |
| fdoving | mailody_0.5.0-2ubuntu1 from http://ubuntu.lnix.net/archive/gutsy/ ? - fixes an evil bug. | 09:01 |
| ScottK | Which looks like what it would expect. | 09:01 |
| Riddell | fdoving: is there a bug number for that? | 09:04 |
| fdoving | Riddell: no launchpad one, no. | 09:04 |
| Riddell | fdoving: but upstream? | 09:05 |
| fdoving | no, i just checked. nothing, i can give you an irc-log copy-paste :) | 09:05 |
| fdoving | it's a dead-simple patch, for a stupid copy/paste error in a imap-flag removal function. | 09:06 |
| fdoving | http://rafb.net/p/7grvcM98.html basically | 09:06 |
| Riddell | fdoving: uploaded | 09:08 |
| Riddell | thanks | 09:08 |
| fdoving | ScottK: do you have konsole_part.cpp for edgy and feisty around? - might make sense to diff those too i guess. loops rarely occure in .h files. | 09:08 |
| Riddell | fdoving: I changed the patch name to kubuntu_.. as is my custom, and the encoding on the changelog seemed funny | 09:08 |
| fdoving | Riddell: ok, changelogs rarely handle the '' in my name properly. | 09:09 |
| Riddell | strange that, it should all be utf8 happy | 09:10 |
| ScottK | fdoving: I have edgy and edgy updates. Edgy and Feisty/Gutsy are broken. edgy-updates is not. | 09:10 |
| fdoving | scottk, can you diff konsole_part.cpp.working to konsole_part.cpp.broken like you did for .h? | 09:11 |
| ScottK | Riddell: In other news, python-kde3 is not currently buildable in Gutsy because the siip4-qt3 version is now to high. | 09:11 |
| Riddell | you can get old sources from launchpad | 09:11 |
| Riddell | ScottK: erk | 09:12 |
| ScottK | Yeah. | 09:12 |
| Riddell | does it work if you change the version needed in build-dep | 09:12 |
| Riddell | ? | 09:12 |
| ScottK | build-dep sip4 (<< 4.6) and we have 4.6-1ubuntu1 | 09:13 |
| ScottK | Dunno. | 09:13 |
| ScottK | I'll try that. | 09:13 |
| fdoving | Riddell: thanks for pointing the encoding issue out, made me find the issue. .bashrc didn't have utf8 chars. fixed :) | 09:18 |
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| Riddell | ah hah | 09:20 |
| ScottK | Riddell: ??? | 09:22 |
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| ryanakca | hmm. Anybody feel like 'mentoring' me on the qcomicbook merge? (where the two .orig.tar.gz differ) | 09:33 |
| ScottK | Ah... Look at the differences and put them together into one package that works in Ubuntu??? | 09:34 |
| fdoving | you probably want to use whatever debian does :) | 09:35 |
| fdoving | hacking orig.tar.gz isn't usually nice. | 09:35 |
| fdoving | unless it is needed for some reason. | 09:35 |
| DaSkreech | ryanakca: That's a Comic book viewer right? | 09:35 |
| ScottK | -2 points to fdoving for an anwer that provides a potentially useful hint. | 09:35 |
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| fdoving | ryanakca: which .orig.tar.gz differ? debian and? | 09:38 |
| ryanakca | DaSkreech: yes | 09:39 |
| ryanakca | fdoving: Debian and Ubuntu. | 09:39 |
| DaSkreech | ok | 09:39 |
| ryanakca | fdoving: ah, so if it's in universe-manual.html, I just have to review the changes, and check if it can be sync'ed, and if not, some how merge it? | 09:40 |
| fdoving | f93f29e0635f8fe64f036bf654050438 deb/qcomicbook_0.3.4.orig.tar.gz | 09:40 |
| fdoving | f93f29e0635f8fe64f036bf654050438 qcomicbook_0.3.4.orig.tar.gz | 09:40 |
| fdoving | looks pretty similar to me. | 09:41 |
| fdoving | that's gutsy and unstable. | 09:41 |
| DaSkreech | Trying to se if there is a market for a KomicBookKreator | 09:41 |
| === ryanakca scratches head and glares at the motu who told him that the reason a package was in -manual, was that the .orig.tar.gz's differed. | ||
| ryanakca | fdoving: ok, so, what's the difference between universe.html and universe-manual.html on MOM ? | 09:42 |
| fdoving | ryanakca: you are correct, review changes, chekc if it can be synced, synced. | 09:42 |
| fdoving | ryanakca: no idea, i'm not up2date in the MOTU world, my focus is more on KDE things when i have some minutes of computing time. #ubuntu-motu is probably a better place for that question. | 09:43 |
| === ryanakca nods, thanks | ||
| fdoving | ryanakca: is it in universe-manual? - packages.ubuntu.com says multiverse here. might have something to do with that. | 09:44 |
| fdoving | .. maybe. | 09:44 |
| ryanakca | hmm. | 09:47 |
| ScottK | fdoving: I haven't forgetten your diff. Just multi-taksing here. | 09:51 |
| fdoving | ScottK: yeah, me too, trying to figure out how to remove some textile cover-thing from a kid-car-seat. not as simple as one would think. | 10:03 |
| ScottK | fdoving: blow torch. | 10:03 |
| fdoving | heh.. yeah :) | 10:03 |
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| fdoving | so.. am i the only one with alsa sound problems in gutsy? | 10:30 |
| DaSkreech | Riddell: Awake? | 10:31 |
| ScottK | He said "ah hah" about an hour ago and went silent. | 10:32 |
| ScottK | I'm still wondering why. | 10:32 |
| fdoving | probably my encoding issue. | 10:33 |
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| fdoving | .. the "ah hah" that is. | 10:34 |
| mhb | fdoving: surely you're not the only one, but sound is working here | 10:34 |
| ScottK | I was hoping for the setpty issue myself. | 10:34 |
| mhb | ScottK: you still can, fdoving was probably right | 10:35 |
| ScottK | No, I was hoping he fixed it. | 10:35 |
| fdoving | mhb: it does work here too, but looks like dmix doesn't work as it did in feisty. amarok can't change songs properly.. results in a crash. it does play the first song though. | 10:35 |
| mhb | ScottK: ah. | 10:35 |
| ScottK | fdoving: One thing I note is the TEPty.h is patched in edgy-update to include the SetPtyFd function and not in Gutsy. Could that be related to this problem? | 10:36 |
| fdoving | scottk, might be. | 10:37 |
| mhb | fdoving: changing tracks in amarok works here, too. I might not have the newest build, though. | 10:37 |
| ScottK-laptop | fdoving: Here's your diff. I wonder about setting autodestroy to false... http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/31150/ | 10:46 |
| fdoving | so.. those are removed in edgy-updates? | 10:48 |
| fdoving | those lines, that is. | 10:48 |
| ScottK-laptop | Yes. Diff is gutsy to edgy-updates | 10:48 |
| fdoving | i'll try to comment those lines and do a rebuild of kdebase. | 10:51 |
| Riddell | DaSkreech: a bit | 10:56 |
| DaSkreech | Riddell: would it be possible to ship two supported CDs? | 10:56 |
| ScottK-laptop | fdoving: You might also consider http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/31154/ | 10:57 |
| ScottK-laptop | That's also from an edgy-updates patch | 10:57 |
| Riddell | DaSkreech: nope | 10:57 |
| DaSkreech | So KDE4 must remain Unsupported till gutsy+2 ? | 10:58 |
| ScottK | Riddell: No, python-kde3 doesn't build with the new sip4. | 10:59 |
| fdoving | ScottK-laptop: that is there in gutsy. | 10:59 |
| ScottK | fdoving: OK. I missed it when I looked. Thanks. | 10:59 |
| Riddell | ScottK: arse | 11:00 |
| DaSkreech | That's Depressing :( | 11:01 |
| fdoving | how bad does it fail? | 11:01 |
| fdoving | hmm.. messing around in amaroks xine engine configs made sound work properly somehow. that is strange. | 11:02 |
| fdoving | probably some old configs breaking my setup.. as usual. | 11:03 |
| ScottK-laptop | fdoving: It was trying to make sipkdeuipart0.o for about an hour without making any progress at all. Just hung and thrashed the machine while it tried to build. | 11:03 |
| ScottK-laptop | Here's the relevant bit of the build log up to and including when I killed it: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/31156/ | 11:05 |
| fdoving | i'll give it a shot. | 11:06 |
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| DaSkreech | mhb: :-( | 11:08 |
| mhb | DaSkreech: well, what can we do? | 11:18 |
| ScottK | DaSkreech: I'm sure if someone wanted to pay for a supported KDE4, Canonical would be happy to oblige. | 11:18 |
| DaSkreech | I know | 11:18 |
| mhb | DaSkreech: except maybe start and fix bugs in KDE4, so that when it comes out, it's bulletproof and we may have a tiny chance of convincing someone to fix it | 11:19 |
| mhb | fix the situation | 11:19 |
| DaSkreech | But I was thinking that the issue was we couldn't ship KDE4 for Gutsy+1 because of LTS | 11:19 |
| ScottK | Can ship it, just in Universe and not by default. | 11:20 |
| DaSkreech | ScottK: And unsupported | 11:20 |
| DaSkreech | I mean I know we will have Cds | 11:20 |
| ScottK | Surre. | 11:20 |
| DaSkreech | We will for Gutsy | 11:20 |
| DaSkreech | but I think that "normal" support during the LTS cycle will be good | 11:21 |
| DaSkreech | It will Help the uptake of KDE4 and ramp up our abilty to support it | 11:21 |
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| mhb | ScottK: KDE4 will be a good marketing advantage, and having it in universe is not exactly a good way to say "we're the best KDE4 there is" | 11:21 |
| ScottK | Of course you're free to do your own remix | 11:21 |
| mhb | ScottK: I think that's what DaSkreech meant | 11:21 |
| ScottK | Depends on your audience. | 11:22 |
| ScottK | WIth geeks, yes, with people who pay for support, no. | 11:22 |
| DaSkreech | ScottK: I think we are talking about different things :) | 11:22 |
| ScottK | How so? | 11:23 |
| mhb | ScottK: sure, but I think the amount of support cash flow is proportional to the number of developers | 11:23 |
| DaSkreech | ScottK: And people who pay for support are more likely to go with LTS or our mundane ordinary support you think? :-) | 11:23 |
| ScottK | For business, works well and is proven is a lot more important than shiny. | 11:23 |
| ScottK | LTS. | 11:23 |
| mhb | ScottK: and we have one, and it's not likely to change | 11:23 |
| DaSkreech | ScottK: Which is why we should have a supoprted KDE4 CD during LTS without LTS support | 11:24 |
| ScottK | Well yes, but the point is we are about to have another and what KDE should it use. | 11:24 |
| DaSkreech | we LTS KDE3 which is proevn and old and grumpy and supported | 11:24 |
| DaSkreech | and we haev a net for people who don't care about paid support but want some help | 11:24 |
| DaSkreech | ScottK: LTS KDE3 | 11:24 |
| DaSkreech | No doubt | 11:25 |
| ScottK | Sure, but we have that regardless (the net) | 11:25 |
| DaSkreech | But I don't think we should have an unsupported KDE4 during that time period | 11:25 |
| DaSkreech | I also don't think we should have a LTS kde4 | 11:25 |
| ScottK | DaSkreech: Do you have a paid support contract? | 11:26 |
| DaSkreech | Nope | 11:26 |
| === ScottK neither. | ||
| ScottK | So what does it matter. | 11:26 |
| mhb | ScottK: there are some questions somebody should answer. One of them: are we (JR and the community) able to deliver something that will make the corporate customers want the paid support for Kubuntu KDE3 LTS? | 11:27 |
| fdoving | if we get paid for it, sure :) | 11:27 |
| ScottK | Agreed. | 11:27 |
| mhb | fdoving: we won't, because we don't ship something that sells well | 11:28 |
| ScottK | mhb: That was actually the reason I went through the pain of getting S/MIME by default for kmail in the repositories and not just making it work on my box. | 11:28 |
| fdoving | paid support makes money, i won't give canonical my support for free if they charge for it. | 11:28 |
| ScottK | more and more, businesses need crypto. | 11:29 |
| ScottK | fdoving: OTOH, we need to help out enough to make sure there is a revenue stream that justifies what Canonical puts into Kubuntu. It's a fine balance. | 11:29 |
| fdoving | then i can simpy supply paid support by myself, and make money from it. | 11:30 |
| === claydoh__ [n=claydoh@66-252-56-104.dyn-adsl.midmaine.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel | ||
| ScottK | Sure. Nothing stopping you. | 11:31 |
| mhb | fdoving: it's not about us selling support, but us coding something that increases the stream of support money to canonical. | 11:31 |
| ScottK | So that Canonical will continue to invest in Kubuntu. | 11:31 |
| fdoving | mhb: then if they need paid support for it, they will hire/educate someone to provide that. | 11:32 |
| === DaSkreech waits till the conversation wanders around back to KDE4 | ||
| mhb | I really shouldn't start discussions like this | 11:33 |
| ScottK | mhb: This is nothing. I was in a 4 hour launchpad shouldn't be proprietary rant on #ubuntu-motu a couple of weeks ago. | 11:33 |
| DaSkreech | Well do we have any stats as to the number of people getting kubuntu support contracts vs ubuntu ? | 11:34 |
| ScottK | No. Only Canonical knows. | 11:34 |
| DaSkreech | mhb: Of course you could also say we could make a product so good that canonical doesn't get any support money :) | 11:34 |
| DaSkreech | And some of that data can't be revealed :( | 11:34 |
| fdoving | ScottK: did you test with sip4_4.6-1ubuntu1 ? | 11:34 |
| ScottK | Yes | 11:35 |
| mhb | ScottK: well I have some info about this | 11:35 |
| ScottK | You do? | 11:35 |
| mhb | ScottK: yes, from what I know they don't see much interest in Kubuntu | 11:37 |
| ScottK | OK. | 11:37 |
| ScottK | Having IMAP not suck in Kmail would be a big help too, but I can't fix that. | 11:37 |
| fdoving | ScottK, riddell: python-kde3_3.16.0-0ubuntu11 builds fine for me with sip4_4.6-1ubuntu1 | 11:38 |
| mhb | ScottK: Mark said Canonical'd put more money into Kubuntu if they did see the interest, but they don't. | 11:38 |
| DaSkreech | mhb: Well if you have an ear ask them to give a list of thigns that need to be improved | 11:38 |
| fdoving | ScottK: use mailody :) | 11:38 |
| fdoving | .. or if you need S/MIME.. dont | 11:38 |
| mhb | DaSkreech: I don't have any connections to the corporate world | 11:38 |
| ScottK | Right. I need S/MIME. | 11:39 |
| mhb | DaSkreech: I can guess the umbrella branding doesn't help much, also we have close to zero marketing. | 11:39 |
| DaSkreech | Well I guess it would be nice to keep a track of how many downloads etc we have | 11:40 |
| DaSkreech | I think that Fedora has a good system to keep a track of how many people are using the OS which is admirable | 11:41 |
| ScottK | Ah, the embedded spyware... | 11:41 |
| DaSkreech | How is it spyware? | 11:41 |
| mhb | DaSkreech: I reckon the numbers are quite high, but those are common users who know what KDE is, and like the Ubuntu way. | 11:41 |
| DaSkreech | thats good enough | 11:42 |
| mhb | DaSkreech: sure it's good, but it's not the community that "pays the Canonical's bills" | 11:43 |
| === ScottK thinks that the Kubuntu team groupware server project could be a good leverage point into corporations. Particularly now that Xandros has bough Zimbra. | ||
| === ryanakca grins | ||
| mhb | 23:45 * ScottK thinks that the Kubuntu team groupware server project could be a good leverage point into | 11:45 |
| === ScottK also recalls the Linspire markets "Has KDE" as an advantage relative to Ubuntu. | ||
| mhb | err, sorry | 11:45 |
| mhb | evil paste newlines | 11:45 |
| fdoving | ScottK: crashes with the modifications to konsole, commented the lines added, selfdestruction etc. | 11:45 |
| ScottK | OK. So that's not it. | 11:45 |
| DaSkreech | mhb: They will | 11:49 |
| mhb | my bottom line: We're appealing to the common users who like KDE now. With the upcoming LTS, we will lose some of the user base to Fedora or any other system with KDE4 out-of-the-box (you know how marketing works). | 11:49 |
| mhb | Are we, as a developer and a community, able to ship something based on KDE3 that will overturn the current little interest in Kubuntu on the corporate market? | 11:51 |
| DaSkreech | And I think rightly so if we are making it the red headed gnome footed child | 11:51 |
| DaSkreech | no offense gnomefreak :) | 11:51 |
| gnomefreak | none taken | 11:51 |
| DaSkreech | mhb: Should we be a corporate distro? | 11:53 |
| ScottK | See you all later. Gotta run. | 11:54 |
| mhb | DaSkreech: No, but LTS is a pro-corporate release. We abandoned KDE4 because of it. Thus we lose some user base. Are we able to create something that makes up for the user base loss? | 11:56 |
| mhb | abandoned KDE4-as-default, I mean | 11:56 |
| DaSkreech | Ah | 11:56 |
| DaSkreech | ok | 11:56 |
| DaSkreech | See the reasoning | 11:56 |
| fdoving | mhb: my guess is that kde 4.0 will be a "not so polished" release, even though most features will be in, it won't be finished. | 11:57 |
| fdoving | not something i would push to a school or huge organization that needs real work done. | 11:58 |
| mhb | DaSkreech: Going risky and trying to market itself as "the corporate distro with the latest and greatest KDE" could be a better strategy. | 11:58 |
| mhb | fdoving: perhaps so, but what is it that will make them want Kubuntu and not SLED,RHEL or Ubuntu? | 11:59 |
| DaSkreech | fdoving: but offering no support for it is wrong | 11:59 |
| fdoving | mhb: apt/dpkg and KDE. | 12:00 |
| fdoving | DaSkreech: no support as in? | 12:00 |
| DaSkreech | mhb: No I don't think Kde4.0 shoudl be LTS | 12:00 |
| DaSkreech | not by a long shot | 12:00 |
| mhb | fdoving: that didn't help much the last time. | 12:00 |
| DaSkreech | fdoving: Far as I understand it KDe4 will be a not by default not supported set of packages until Gutsy+2 | 12:01 |
| fdoving | DaSkreech: not supported as in it will probably be impossible to backport all fixes to it for 5 years. i belive. | 12:01 |
| DaSkreech | fdoving: Hmm? | 12:02 |
| mhb | will there be any fixes from upstream KDE for KDE3? | 12:03 |
| === ryanakca scratches his head at the editor war. It's so confusing :) | ||
| ryanakca | vim or emacs. | 12:03 |
| fdoving | DaSkreech: LTS support for KDE 4 will be a fulltime job. there will be so much fixes in the rest of the KDE 4 releases taht would need to be backported to 4.0. backporting securityfixes and closing bugs in kde 4.0 won't make much sense if it's not done upstream. | 12:03 |
| DaSkreech | ryanakca: joe! | 12:03 |
| fdoving | mhb: probably not, if they are seriously grave maybe. | 12:04 |
| mhb | fdoving: so we're supporting a release of KDE that won't get any fixes from upstream at all. That's also not a very good situation, is it? | 12:05 |
| fdoving | mhb: kde people are nice, nothing is impossible. | 12:05 |
| mhb | fdoving: sure they're nice, but they want to push KDE4 forward, they'll be all fixing bugs for KDE4 | 12:06 |
| ScottK | It's been that way for quite some time. I don't think it'll get measureable worse. | 12:07 |
| fdoving | mhb: i'd rather support 3.5.7-8 than 4.0. 4.x will have much much more activity, things will probably change alot for 4.1, supporting 4.0 means backporting atleast all security fixes to 4.0. | 12:07 |
| fdoving | kde 3.5 is easier to support, it's prooven, it's been around for some time. | 12:07 |
| mhb | fdoving: I totally understand your point. | 12:07 |
| mhb | fdoving: OTOH, I think Kubuntu dapper (KDE with apt/dpkg) didn't convince many corporate entities and we have little to offer now, we have no killer app that will overturn the little interest for Kubuntu | 12:08 |
| fdoving | mhb: the french parliment chose kubuntu :) | 12:08 |
| mhb | fdoving: yeah, but we have one paid developer from Canonical and there's little or no gain for Canonical now. | 12:10 |
| ScottK | mhb: The killer app is kontact + groupware server replacing Outlook/Exhcange. | 12:10 |
| mhb | fdoving: but there are more and more Ubuntu employees | 12:11 |
| ScottK | But many/most work on stuff that benifit's Kubuntu too (e.g. calc showing up to maintain OOO). | 12:12 |
| fdoving | mhb: it makes sense. who gets the most manpower+money makes the better product. it's simple. | 12:12 |
| mhb | fdoving: yeah, and who makes less money will be developed mostly by community | 12:12 |
| mhb | crystal clear to me. | 12:13 |
| mhb | but why are we making a LTS version without any new killer apps? The users (the community) will decrease and we'll gain nothing. | 12:13 |
| fdoving | because it's an LTS release. | 12:14 |
| fdoving | we want something that works. | 12:14 |
| DaSkreech | fdoving: I don't want LTS KDE4 | 12:14 |
| fdoving | and something we know will continue to work. | 12:14 |
| fdoving | DaSkreech: i want it, but i don't want the patching job :) | 12:14 |
| mhb | fdoving: who's we? The users will want KDE4 and the corporations won't choose Kubuntu in the first place. | 12:14 |
| mhb | ah, going nowhere, I'd better stay quiet. | 12:15 |
| mhb | sorry for bothering you folks | 12:15 |
| DaSkreech | I think that the people who care about LTS care about KDE4 as much as they care about Vista Aero | 12:15 |
| fdoving | mhb: we'll see, if we provide kde4 as an option they can choose to use that. | 12:15 |
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