[02:06] <nixternal> I think we have some broken KDE after todays updates
[02:10] <DaSkreech> Some broken KDE?
[02:11] <nixternal> ya, my Konqui keeps locking up now..but it may not be kdebase related, seeing only one thing was changed, and it has nothing to do with konqui or anything else...just mounting stuff
[02:11] <nixternal> and notify-send stopped working
[02:11] <DaSkreech> Hal?
[02:12] <nixternal> I don't see any hal changes though
[03:04] <n8k99> nixternal: ping
[03:04] <nixternal> pong
[03:05] <n8k99> im gonna be in chicago over the weekend- til tuesday
[03:05] <nixternal> next weekend?
[03:05] <n8k99> this coming
[03:06] <nixternal> hrmm...I will be out of town with my daughter this weekend :(
[03:06] <n8k99> how bout mon or tues?
[03:06] <nixternal> tuesday I will be back around, I have class from 12 to 5
[03:06] <nixternal> maybe monday?
[03:07] <n8k99> daytime?
[03:07] <nixternal> possibly
[04:23] <DaSkreech> NIght!@!
[05:16] <gnomefreak> nixternal: im here, im away from home for 4 weeks give or take and fighting connection issues but i think i won, im out for night
[06:29] <nixternal> anyone with gutsy able to reproduce bug 127876
[06:29] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 127876 in kdebase "Konqueror and Adobe Flashplayer - Konqui locks up" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/127876
[09:14] <saispo> hi
[09:15] <saispo> can i suggest something about Depends on kubuntu-desktop ?
[10:04] <mikkael> i know gutsy got a new splash screen, with another color scheme, i saw this on screenshots on some sites, so i upgraded from feisty some time ago (tribe 1) and the new spalsh isnt here :(
[10:09] <Mez> mikkael, sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade && sudo apt-get dselect-upgrade
[10:09] <Mez> aka
[10:10] <Mez> upgrade ;)
[10:10] <Mez> lol
[10:22] <mikkael> that doesnt do the trick
[10:22] <mikkael> btw whats dselect-upgrade ?
[10:24] <Hobbsee> jdong: you know there's a new ktorrent?
[10:49] <Hobbsee> saispo: what was the suggestion?
[10:49] <saispo> Hobbsee: hmmm, i think i'm wrong
[10:49] <saispo> it's about avahi-autoipd
[10:50] <saispo> i think you may push it in Suggests, not in Depends
[10:50] <Hobbsee> Riddell: it was my birthday on the 22nd, yes
[10:50] <Riddell> Hobbsee: congratulations
[10:50] <Hobbsee> ;0
[10:50] <Hobbsee> * :)
[10:50] <Hobbsee> Riddell: i'm old now :P
[10:52] <Hobbsee> saispo: what makes you say that?
[10:52] <saispo> because it creates a default route with a metric 1000 on the first network interfaces
[10:54] <Riddell> saispo: we're changing it now
[10:54] <saispo> ok
[10:57] <Hobbsee> mhb: are you following the kde discussions about delaying the release of kde 4?
[10:58] <Riddell> ou est tonio?
[10:59] <Riddell> I wonder if I can just upload kdesudo without him
[10:59] <Hobbsee> mhb: currently, the metapackages only contain packages in main.  there is talk of this changing, with ubuntu-studio, etc.
[10:59] <Hobbsee> mhb: with that being changed, kubuntu kde4 unsupported ( in the way that ubuntu-studio and xubuntu are) is presumably fine.
[11:00] <Hobbsee> assuming that apt bug gets fixed, too
[11:38] <contrast83> Greets, everyone...
[11:39] <contrast83> Can someone help me get KDE 4 running under Gutsy? I followed the instructions here - http://kubuntu.org/announcements/kde4-alpha1.php - and it just crashes my X session and returns me to the login screen when I try logging in to the KDE 4 session.
[11:41] <Riddell> contrast83: try installing alpha 2 packages from feisty-backports
[11:41] <mhb> Hobbsee: no, I don't follow those discussions
[11:41] <Tonio_> Riddell: is that local problem on my machine or is openoffice broken ?
[11:41] <Tonio_> Riddell: I noticed nspluginviewer is broken the same way
[11:41] <Tonio_> I suspect a problem with yesterdays libs upload
[11:41] <Tonio_> Riddell: btw, tested kdesudo, everything is just perfect except the missing -n functionnality
[11:42] <Riddell> I've not upgraded since tribe 3
[11:42] <Riddell> Tonio_: we should upload kdesudo then, do you want to do it or I?
[11:43] <Tonio_> Riddell: I'll do it
[11:43] <contrast83> Riddell: Umm... Ok. So uninstall everything I already installed (I should clarify - I installed from the Gutsy repo, not the one on that page), then add the feisty backports repo and install kde4base-dev package from that?
[11:43] <Tonio_> Riddell: I'll also release a tarball on kde-apps this we
[11:43] <Riddell> contrast83: if you installed from gutsy then that's alpha 2
[11:43] <Tonio_> Riddell: I'l prepare the package during lunch so that you and Hobbsee can review it today :)
[11:44] <Riddell> Tonio_: want me to write the main inclusion report?
[11:44] <Tonio_> Riddell: did you clean your code from the debu things or not ?
[11:44] <Tonio_> Riddell: would be nice yes ;)
[11:44] <Riddell> Tonio_: I did yes, it should be good to merge my branch
[11:44] <Tonio_> Riddell: will do thanks :)
[11:44] <Tonio_> Riddell: is that ooo problem a known one or should I report ?
[11:45] <contrast83> Riddell: Yeah, that's what I did. I've got 3.91.0 installed, and I followed the directions for setting up a seperate session.
[11:45] <Riddell> Tonio_: no idea, ask calc (when he wakes up)
[11:45] <Riddell> contrast83: do individual applications work?
[11:45] <Tonio_> Riddell: ok
[11:46] <contrast83> Riddell: Sorry, how would I find that out if I can't get into the KDE 4 session?
[11:46] <Tonio_> Riddell: why a copying.lib file ?
[11:46] <Riddell> contrast83: set the environment variables and run from a command line (under kde 3)
[11:46] <Tonio_> Riddell: there is no lib nore 2 licences
[11:46] <Riddell> Tonio_: files in admin/ are LGPL
[11:46] <mhb> Hobbsee: are those discussions on the internet?
[11:46] <Tonio_> Riddell: oops, true :)
[11:46] <Riddell> mhb: kde-release mailing list I expect
[11:47] <Riddell> mhb: although it was also discussed over a stuffed crust with sweetcorn in Pizza Hut
[11:47] <contrast83> Riddell: Will I have a hard time setting those env. variables back to normal (given I'm somewhat of a newb :-\ )?
[11:47] <Riddell> contrast83: no, you'd just close the terminal
[11:48] <contrast83> Oh ok. Thanks, one sec...
[11:51] <contrast83> Riddell: Yeah, individual programs start
[11:53] <contrast83> Any ideas why the KDE 4 session would be crashing X?
[11:54] <Riddell> nope
[11:54] <Riddell> hard to debug too
[11:54] <Riddell> contrast83: do you have kde4base-dev installed?
[11:54] <contrast83> yeah
[11:55] <mhb> Hobbsee: I'm reading through the kde-release-team ML and I'm starting to believe that following those discussions is close to impossible :o)
[11:55] <Riddell> try installing xserver-xephyr and running a session in that
[11:56] <mhb> Hobbsee: the whole "gamma" concept sounds rather confusing to me, but it's probably me :o)
[12:04] <contrast83> Riddell: Was just looking back over the instructions. I misread something, my (stupid) mistake. Thanks anyway for your help though
[12:21] <Riddell> Tonio_: I made another commit to kdesudo you could merge in
[12:26] <Riddell> kdesudo: MainInclusionReportKdesudo
[12:26] <Riddell> kiosktool: MainInclusionReportKiosktool
[12:26] <Riddell> made
[12:28] <Riddell> Tonio_: have you contacted the original author at all?
[12:36] <Tonio_> Riddell: I did, no response to the mail
[12:38] <Riddell> fair enough
[12:39] <Tonio_> Riddell: oki, I'll merge your changes
[12:39] <Tonio_> Riddell: should my name appear ? I mean I'm not coding on it :) mhb did most of the job
[12:39] <Tonio_> about the copyright file I mean
[12:40] <Riddell> Tonio_: you could put in all the copyright lines I put in kdesudo.cpp
[12:40] <mhb> Tonio_: that's silly
[12:40] <Hobbsee> mhb: it's the one after the alpha and betas
[12:40] <Hobbsee> yes, the release team ML
[12:40] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: cool
[12:41] <Riddell> I missed out stefan since he didn't commit with a useful e-mail
[12:41] <Tonio_> mhb: what's silly ? :)
[12:42] <mhb> Tonio_: my work on kdesudo wasn't that great
[12:43] <Tonio_> mhb: mine wasn't too :)
[12:44] <mhb> Hobbsee: the way I understand it "gamma" = final, but not ready for common users
[12:44] <Tonio_> mhb: I just fixed the code needed so that the old code worked on modern sudo
[12:44] <Tonio_> nothing else
[12:44] <Hobbsee> mhb: i think so.  well, where most of the apps are mostly ready
[12:48] <Tonio_> Riddell: kio-umountwrapper is in main
[12:48] <Tonio_> Riddell: we should change the seeds to install it
[12:49] <Riddell> Tonio_: i did
[12:50] <Tonio_> Riddell: you rock :)
[12:50] <Riddell> :)
[12:50] <Tonio_> Riddell: merged your changes and uploading kdesudo
[12:53] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: we have 2.0 final of knm in our repos?
[12:53] <Hobbsee> or only a SVN snapshot?
[12:53] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: svn, I have to update the package :)
[12:53] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: feel free to do it
[12:53] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: woo!
[12:53] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: i'll have a look
[01:00] <Hobbsee> hmmm.  this would help if i could actually find the original tarball
[01:01] <Hobbsee> oh, here we are
[01:04] <Hobbsee> right.  apparently the file doesnt exist
[01:05] <Hobbsee> Riddell: btw, do you have plans for creating a kde4 metapackage, to bring in all the needed bits?
[01:10] <Riddell> Hobbsee: kde4base seems to do well
[01:10] <Hobbsee> Riddell: ah right
[01:24] <Hobbsee>  /build/buildd/krusader-1.80.0/./krusader/Dialogs/krdialogs.cpp:183: error: call of overloaded 'KDialogBase()' is ambiguous
[01:24] <Hobbsee> hmmm....
[01:32] <Riddell> I'd expect so
[01:32] <Riddell> hasn't that patch been removed?
[01:37] <Hobbsee> i thought so, but...perhaps not
[01:50] <Tonio_> Riddell: it had been rewrote by _StefanS_
[01:51] <Tonio_> Riddell: I tested it with an amarok build, it worked....
[01:51] <Tonio_> Riddell: so there is still a kdelibs patch for kdesudo
[01:51] <Tonio_> Riddell: we can remove it atm, since the client patch has been removed too
[01:53] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: it has been rewritten
[01:54] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: and I haven't any problems with it
[01:54] <_StefanS_> haven't had any..
[01:59] <_StefanS_> Hobbsee: are you running a full updated gutsy ?
[01:59] <Hobbsee> _StefanS_: yes
[01:59] <Hobbsee> _StefanS_: that was on a buildd
[01:59] <_StefanS_> Hobbsee: let me try it
[01:59] <_StefanS_> Hobbsee: is krusader in the package database?
[02:00] <Hobbsee> _StefanS_: it's a sync from debian, the source will be on a.u.c, yes
[02:00] <_StefanS_> Hobbsee: so how can I test it?
[02:00] <Hobbsee> _StefanS_:
[02:00] <Hobbsee> _StefanS_: apt-get source krusader, and build it?
[02:00] <_StefanS_> ok
[02:00] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: nobody says it's your fault :)
[02:00] <_StefanS_> I wasn't sure
[02:00] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: I know it was reuploaded, I did the upload hehe
[02:01] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: is your pbuilder cache up to date ?
[02:01] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: can cause the issue too
[02:01] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: I know ;) - I just curious to fix it, if there's any probs
[02:01] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: true, but i didnt build it here.
[02:01] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: that's on the launchpad buildds
[02:02] <_StefanS_> Hobbsee: how do you buil dit ?
[02:02] <Hobbsee> debuild -rfakeroot, to build it on your system
[02:02] <Hobbsee> otherwise with a pbuilder
[02:04] <_StefanS_> Hobbsee: forgot I reinstalled... devscripts, cdbs and stuff is kinda needed ;)
[02:05] <Hobbsee> hehe, yes :)
[02:05] <_StefanS_> Hobbsee: its building.. lets se
[02:05] <_StefanS_> see
[02:07] <_StefanS_> Hobbsee: argh... I see your point
[02:07] <Hobbsee> heh
[02:07] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: lets just drop this whole kdesudo fade.. I cant really see how we're going to fix it.
[02:08] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: too bad.. but we cant have apps that wont build
[02:16] <_StefanS_> Hobbsee: try doing editing this file for testing: /usr/include/kde/kdialogbase.h : line 279, change 'WFlags f=WType_Popup', to 'WFLags f'  and rebuild
[02:16] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: I might have a fix
[02:16] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: I will test with kdebase now
[02:17] <_StefanS_> Hobbsee: krusader builds fine now on my installation.
[02:17] <Hobbsee> great
[02:18] <_StefanS_> Hobbsee: try the patch thingy, and let me know how it goes.
[02:19] <Hobbsee> probably after i look at this mozilla stuff, though
[02:19] <_StefanS_> Hobbsee: alright, I will coordinate with Tonio_ to get the update out then
[02:19] <Hobbsee> great, thanks
[02:29] <_StefanS_> Hobbsee, Tonio_: the updated patch in your mailbox(es)
[02:29] <_StefanS_> in/is in
[02:29] <Hobbsee> yay!
[02:29] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: will test toonight, not before :)
[02:29] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: sweet.
[02:30] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: be sure to bug me if things go bad. btw: the fade and your problem, i'm not sure how we could fix it. I have tried setting 0L as the parent window, but I dont know if that changes anything on your setup ..
[02:30] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: still works on mine no matter what I do..
[02:31] <_StefanS_> gotta run.
[02:34] <viviersf> Riddell, ping
[02:37] <Riddell> hi viviersf
[02:46] <Tonio_> _StefanS_: well the point is that I probably won't commit the patch if there is a risk it just makes kdesudo unusable for some people
[02:46] <Tonio_> Riddell, Hobbsee feel free to review kdesudo :)
[03:07] <ScottK> Did somebody actually think through the implications for support of installing gdebi by default in kubuntu-desktop or did that just slip in?
[03:08] <stdin> isn't there a gdebi-kde package?
[03:09] <ScottK> There is and it's a recommends in kubuntu-desktop for Gutsy.
[03:09] <ScottK> Which gets installed by default.
[03:09] <Hobbsee> the problem with support and gdebi is?
[03:09] <Hobbsee> oh, unofficial packages?
[03:10] <ScottK> Yeah.  That's the only kind you need it for.
[03:10] <Hobbsee> let us remove dpkg -i too then
[03:10] <Hobbsee> sometimes test debs, etc
[03:11] <ScottK> Sure, but you know what you are doing.
[03:11] <ScottK> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I think making installing random software from outside the packaging system too easy is not a good idea.
[03:11] <ScottK> It kind of gets past the entire point of having a distribution.
[03:12] <Hobbsee> yes, but curbing users isnt a brilliant idea either
[03:12] <mhb> ScottK: IIRC, gdebi-kde and gdebi shows a warning
[03:12] <Hobbsee> there are positives and negatives
[03:13] <ScottK> Not including gdebi in the repos would be curbing the users.  Not installing it by default means you have to take a positive decision to wonder off the reservation.
[03:13] <ScottK> mhb: People don't read the warnings.  They just clickety, clickety.
[03:15] <mhb> ScottK: get packing. In order to solve this, we're sending you on an around-the-world trip to educate users. No expenses paid.
[03:15] <ScottK> Heh.
[03:16] <ScottK> I think I'm also particularly annoyed as upgrading to Gutsy changed system behavior in a negative way for me (not that it would matter to 99% of people), but I liked that clicking on a .deb in Konqueror fired off ark.
[03:17] <ScottK> OK.  I guess it's been thought through and decided.
[03:17] <ScottK> Back to work.
[03:18] <mhb> ScottK: well, if they ignore the warning, we cannot do anything else but believe they know what they're doing
[03:18] <mhb> ScottK: we had several bug reports about not being able to install packages this way.
[03:19] <jdong> ScottK: lol you've seen the bottom of the forum right?
[03:19] <ScottK> Well that's a good reason to have it in the repositories.
[03:19] <ScottK> jdong: No.
[03:19] <jdong> it's gone now :)
[03:19] <jdong> but was hilarious while it lasted
[03:19] <ScottK> What was that?
[03:19] <jdong> we added a "most searched keywords" statistic
[03:19] <jdong> and someone search-bombed "AUTOMATIX SUCKS"
[03:20] <ScottK> Ah.
[03:20] <Hobbsee> jdong: hahahaha, nice
[03:20] <jdong> ScottK: if we left it there for too long we would've gotten complaints...
[03:20] <ScottK> Anything that sigkills dpkg does.
[03:20] <mhb> ScottK: and of course you can set it to open with Ark, can't you?
[03:20] <mhb> ScottK: I'm pretty sure you can do that in KDE
[03:20] <Hobbsee> ScottK: you have heard abotu the upgrader and automatix and friends, havent you?
[03:21] <ScottK> Yes.  I can and I did and I also realize that's just my own personal bit.
[03:21] <ScottK> Hobbsee: Are you saying that by including gdebi in a default install you think it make it less likely those even more crackish solutions will get used?
[03:22] <Hobbsee> ScottK: not necessarily
[03:22] <ScottK> OK.  Not sure what your point was then?
[03:22] <Hobbsee> ScottK: but for things like virtualbox, where it's not in commercial yet
[03:22] <Hobbsee> oh, it was just a comment in reference to your comment about the automatix bugs
[03:22] <ScottK> Ah.
[03:22] <ScottK> OK.
[03:23] <ScottK> Good reasons to have it in the repos, but I still fear the consequences of having it installed by default.
[03:23] <mhb> ScottK: one more thing: you should have thought before the implementation of gdebi-kde started. Not including it in the default install could make the author unhappy.
[03:23] <mhb> ScottK: *thought about it
[03:23] <jdong> Hobbsee: thanks for headsup on new ktorrent... do you know if Tonio_ is planning to package it?
[03:23] <jdong> I don't want to duplicate effort again :D
[03:23] <Hobbsee> jdong: no idea, havent heard
[03:24] <ScottK> Well I didn't know it was installed by default until I clicked on a .deb and it fired off.
[03:24] <Hobbsee> mhb: then again, we had people in #kubuntu bitching about the bash --> dash change, a full year after it had been implemented...
[03:24] <ScottK> Still comes up.
[03:25] <jdong> Hobbsee: I think we should spice things up.... pick a different /bin/sh every release :D
[03:25] <ScottK> mhb: speaking of, do you have a reduced test case for the python-kde problem that I can use to replicate it?
[03:25] <Hobbsee> jdong: hehe
[03:25] <jdong> tbh, of all the shells that act as /bin/sh emulators, bash seems to be the WORST at compliance
[03:25] <ScottK> Maybe put a random number generator behind the /bin/sh symlink and have it change on every boot?
[03:25] <jdong> ScottK: lol exactly...
[03:26] <jdong> sh candidates are already loaded in debconf
[03:27] <mhb> ScottK: no, but I'll create one right up
[03:28] <ScottK> mhb: Great.  I diffed the works/doesn't work versions and I got a few hints.
[03:37] <mhb> ScottK: I finished it, uploading to that bug
[03:37] <ScottK> OK.  I'll have a look.
[03:40] <ScottK> mhb: Which bug?
[03:41] <mhb> bug 117731 I guess
[03:41] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 117731 in python-kde3 "Python crashes after attaching pty to a konsole kpart" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/117731
[03:42] <ScottK> mhb: Thanks.  Turns out konqueror was doing too good a job at caching my content.
[03:44] <ScottK> mhb: I see you're determined to make sure I keep gdebi-kde installed ;-)
[03:45] <mhb> ScottK: no, it's gdebi-kde independent
[03:46] <mhb> ScottK: perhaps I forgot to remove the "import" clause, feel free to do so
[03:46] <ScottK> Ah.  I didn't look at the code.  I'll do that.  Thanks.
[03:46] <ScottK> It did crash, so I've marked it triaged...
[03:52] <mhb> ScottK: uploaded the fixed gd-test.py script
[03:52] <ScottK> THanks.
[03:52] <mhb> you're welcome, thanks for working on it
[03:59] <manchicken_> Well poop..  The Kate treeview plugin, which I successfully packaged, doesn't work with anything but local files.
[03:59] <manchicken_> I'll stick that in the almost-but-not-quite-useful list.
[03:59] <kwwii> don't worry, nobody but a developer needs an extra window with a list of files
[04:00] <kwwii> the fact that we ship kate like that makes me not use it
[04:00] <Riddell> kwwii: how would you prefer it?
[04:00] <manchicken_> kwwii: I'm not working on these plugin packages for anybody but myself right now :)
[04:01] <manchicken_> kwwii: I know a lot of folks wish kate was simplified, and I don't mind that idea at all.  I just think we should have more developer plugins for it, too.
[04:01] <Riddell> simplified how?
[04:02] <kwwii> Riddell: without the file view on the left
[04:02] <manchicken_> Riddell: They don't like having all the document listing, file viewers, etc.
[04:02] <jjesse> i don't like having the document view on by default for kate either
[04:02] <Riddell> then you couldn't see what files you had opened
[04:02] <Riddell> it would be like konqueror without the tabs
[04:02] <kwwii> it is a simple text editor, let's keep it that way be default
[04:03] <manchicken> That is the rub.  Kate is MDI.  I think some folks wish it were SDI.
[04:03] <mhb> isn't kwrite for that?
[04:03] <manchicken> kedit ;)
[04:03] <kwwii> 99% of people do not open more than one file at a time anyway
[04:03] <manchicken> kwwii: You do know that "kate" states for "KDE Advanced Text Editor," don't you? :P
[04:03] <kwwii> perhaps I should just be using kwrite though
[04:04] <manchicken> It's not a simple text editor :)
[04:04] <manchicken> It's an advanced text editor.
[04:04] <manchicken> heh
[04:04] <kwwii> manchicken: nope, didn't know that and really don't care
[04:04] <mhb> kwwii: I think write == kate - tabs - other advanced functionality
[04:04] <mhb> kwrite
[04:04] <kwwii> mhb: guess you are right
[04:05] <Hobbsee> kwwii: i *regularly* open multiple files at a time.  even in non-kubuntu stuff.
[04:05] <kwwii> I was used to SUSE pushing kate in your face as the text editor
[04:05] <kwwii> Hobbsee: however you, my dear, are a geek :p
[04:05] <manchicken> kwwii: They really mistreated and abused you over there, huh?
[04:05] <Hobbsee> kwwii: heh
[04:05] <Hobbsee> kwwii: is that a good thing or a bad thing?
[04:06] <kwwii> manchicken: it was horrible, people coming in my office to make sure I was using kate :-(
[04:06] <manchicken> kwwii: It's okay buddy.  It's okay.
[04:06] <manchicken> kwwii: We can get through this, *sob*, together.
[04:06] <kwwii> manchicken: don't worry, my therapist says I am getting better
[04:06] <manchicken> kwwii: Good for you man.
[04:06] <manchicken> heh
[04:07] <manchicken> Which all reminds me, Bridge to Terabithia sucked.
[04:07] <manchicken> kwwii: Don't let your girls watch that movie.
[04:07] <manchicken> kwwii: You will get nothing but tears.
[04:07] <kwwii> lol
[04:07] <kwwii> my son said it was boring
[04:07] <manchicken> (was it you who had girls?)
[04:07] <manchicken> Ah, it was alle, wasn't it?
[04:07] <kwwii> exactly
[04:07] <ScottK> manchicken: Might have been me.  I have 3.
[04:07] <kwwii> I only have one son
[04:08] <manchicken> There ya go.
[04:08] <manchicken> kwwii: Yeah, for boys it was boring I bet.
[04:08] <manchicken> kwwii: The girl died of stupidity.
[04:09] <kwwii> manchicken: sounds like you have seen it several times
[04:09] <manchicken> kwwii: No, I had to argue to my wife that it was a terrible movie.
[04:09] <kwwii> hehe, luckily my wife doesn't watch many movies
[04:10] <manchicken> dh_make has got to be the coolest program ever.
[04:12] <kwwii> GEEK ALARM!!!
[04:12] <kwwii> oh, wait, this is a devel channel anyway
[04:13] <manchicken> I'm really hoping this kate ctags plugin works.
[04:13] <manchicken> I could really use a ctags impl in kate.
[04:14] <ryanakca> hmmm. 'grab-merge.sh qcomicbook
[04:14] <manchicken_> Stupid wireless card.
[04:14] <ryanakca> hmmm. 'grab-merge.sh qcomicbook' should grab the debian and ubuntu files for the merge, right?
[04:14] <Riddell> never heard of such a script
[04:14] <manchicken_> This house we're trying to buy has a nice open floor plan, with the living room and the office sharing a wall.
[04:15] <manchicken_> It'll be nice to finally be able to run wires.
[04:15] <Hobbsee> ryanakca: yes
[04:15] <Hobbsee> Riddell: it's to do with MoM.
[04:16] <ryanakca> Riddell: http://merges.ubuntu.com/grab-merge.sh
[04:16] <ryanakca> Hobbsee: ok. Any guesses why it's not grabing the files?
[04:17] <Hobbsee> ryanakca: because the merge isnt listed on mom, i suspect
[04:18] <ryanakca> I guess I'll just have to dget them manually :)
[04:18] <manchicken_> And of course the ctags plugin does not work.
[04:25] <_StefanS_> Tonio_: thats fair enough :)
[04:58] <ScottK> Not kidding.
[04:59] <Hobbsee> .....
[05:00] <yuriy> ScottK: how about a box fan or something?
[05:00] <ScottK> Well the fundamental problem is Bug 127772.  Hopefully it gets fixed.
[05:00] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 127772 in linux-source-2.6.22 "CPU fan no longer runs after upgrade to Gutsy" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/127772
[05:01] <ScottK> As laptops go it's reasonably cool, so it runs fine unless I'm building a big package.
[05:02] <Hobbsee> haha, otherwise it does as mine does, probably
[05:02] <Hobbsee> cant you just force the fan on in the bios?
[05:06] <ScottK> I have ice.  I don't have a box fan that wouldn't completely re-arrange my "carefully compiled" stacks of paper in the office.
[05:11] <mhb> ScottK: there is such a section? No wonder my kernel bugs never get fixed :o)
[05:23] <nixternal> ScottK: I am noticing the same issue right now with my laptop
[05:23] <nixternal> it is running 55c right now, but I guarantee it is on its way to 65c eventually
[05:23] <nixternal> and this just started
[05:23] <ScottK> Cool.  Bug 127772 woulc use confirming.
[05:23] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 127772 in linux-source-2.6.22 "CPU fan no longer runs after upgrade to Gutsy" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/127772
[05:24] <nixternal> normally it is between 45c and 48c
[05:25] <manchicken_> nixternal: Do you sync your palm using bluetooth?
[05:27] <nixternal> nope...can't afford blue tooth :)
[05:27] <nixternal> usb
[05:27] <nixternal> brb...gotta reboot this laptop after updates...says I am on battery power for some strange reason
[05:32] <manchicken_> kword needs better templates.
[05:41] <nixternal> manchicken_: for kword templates, check www.kde-files.org
[05:45] <manchicken_> Why is openoffice acting so strangely?
[05:46] <manchicken_> It just shows its splash screen and then sucks CPU and memory.
[05:50] <manchicken_> I'll try running it under the command-line and see if that helps.
[05:54] <manchicken_> Yeah, openoffice.org is totally hosed for me.
[06:01] <ScottK> manchicken_: Hobbsee mentioned some trouble with it on #ubuntu-devel a while ago, but no new uploads recently to explain it.
[06:01] <ScottK> You might ping calc over there and see.
[06:07] <nixternal> hrmm...it seems the open office stuff just started doing this for me...I used it within the last few days I think
[06:10] <ScottK> nixternal: libgtk2.0-0 seems to be broken at the moment.
[06:10] <nixternal> well, I think the libgtk also fixed some other things as well :)
[06:10] <nixternal> you break some, you fix some
[06:10] <nixternal> or is that you win some, you lose some?
[06:10] <nixternal> hehe
[06:11] <nixternal> well, today my cpu is staying 48c to 55c, which is typical between use and abuse, but I did just see a 60c here a minute or so ago, when I started up OOo to be exact
[06:12] <nixternal> but I haven't heard my fan kick in at all
[06:12] <ScottK> Well do that about 5 times and then see what happens...
[06:12] <nixternal> was there something that would have caused this just recently?
[06:12] <nixternal> I just noticed it yesterday for the first time
[06:13] <Riddell> lots of people are complaining about openoffice
[06:13] <gnomefreak> fan issue after kernel update?
[06:13] <nixternal> I didn't see a kernel update yesterday though...unless it has been occurring and I just now noticed it
[06:13] <nixternal> however, the temps right now are normal compared to yesterday
[06:14] <gnomefreak> i updated 190+ yesterday as i was away all week and ther ewas a 2.6.22-8.*update but not sure when that was
[06:14] <nixternal> yup, as soon as I open anything OOo, it goes up to 60c
[06:15] <nixternal> and the fan seems to be running, just not full speed
[06:15] <mhb> err, how can you easily measure the temperature?
[06:15] <nixternal> I use Kima
[06:15] <gnomefreak> what are the OO.o complaints? it seems to work fine here
[06:15] <nixternal> it is a kicker applet
[06:15] <nixternal> !info kima
[06:15] <ubotu> Package kima does not exist in feisty, feisty-seveas
[06:15] <nixternal> !info kima gutsy
[06:15] <ubotu> kima: kicker monitoring applet. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.7.3.2-0ubuntu1 (gutsy), package size 114 kB, installed size 448 kB
[06:16] <nixternal> OK, it is in the gutsy repos...so you can either rebuild it for feisty, or just download it from kde-apps
[06:16] <mhb> nixternal: what makes you think I run feisty?
[06:17] <mhb> nixternal: anyway, thanks for the tip
[06:17] <nixternal> well, that was a just in case...I didn't think you ran it, but posted the info just in case :)
[06:17] <nixternal> nobody should be running feisty in this channel...if they are...well then ;)
[06:17] <gnomefreak> nixternal: feisty with a gutsy chroot but i also run gutsy with feisty chroot
[06:18] <manchicken_> What the hell is up with people trying to discourage others from trying and using amd64?
[06:18] <nixternal> manchicken_: cluelessness
[06:18] <nixternal> I was discouraged as well
[06:18] <manchicken_> I think it's just a bunch of sods who weren't clever enough to figure it out, so now they see it as their life's mission to discourage anybody from using it.
[06:18] <nixternal> you want to know why?
[06:18] <manchicken_> Why's that?
[06:18] <nixternal> because flash won't work unless you setup a 32bit chroot
[06:19] <gnomefreak> manchicken_: 64bit for gutsy has come a long way but as for 64 feisty its a beast to get gnash/and java working (i dont discourage anything) these are just thoughts
[06:19] <nixternal> whoopy-freakin'-doo
[06:19] <manchicken_> That's not true at all.
[06:19] <manchicken_> gnomefreak: I've been using amd64 since edgy, and it works just fine.
[06:19] <nixternal> same here
[06:19] <manchicken_> I even have had flash, java, codecs, all that stuff.
[06:19] <manchicken_> And I didn't even have to set up a chroot.
[06:19] <nixternal> and the java works as well, as I have written code on the 64bit setup
[06:19] <manchicken_> I've never had to set up a 32-bit chroot.
[06:20] <manchicken_> Ever.
[06:20] <nixternal> EVAH!
[06:20] <gnomefreak> manchicken_: gnash <0.8.0 doesnt work wortha  crap and >java 1.4 doesnt work either unless you go with upstream versions and that is un supported ;)
[06:20] <manchicken_> I just can't use flash in konqueror (boo hoo).
[06:20] <nixternal> I only use my 64bit rig for packaging and DVDs
[06:20] <nixternal> gnash 0.8.x is sweet I must say
[06:21] <gnomefreak> ScottK: feature :)
[06:21] <nixternal> hehe
[06:21] <manchicken_> gnomefreak: Most folks are using the non-free flash player.  It works just fine under amd64 kubuntu if you install ia32 stuff.
[06:21] <nixternal> I wanted to say that :(
[06:21] <gnomefreak> nixternal: it is :)
[06:21] <manchicken_> I haven't been able to get gnash to work well.
[06:21] <manchicken_> And when it does have problems, it kills my X server.
[06:21] <nixternal> oh, I need to get ready for school..but b4 I go..does anyone have experience using a webcam with Kubuntu?
[06:21] <gnomefreak> manchicken_: non-free flash is unsupported that is why people say what they say
[06:21] <nixternal> my daughter wants me to get one
[06:22] <manchicken_> gnomefreak: But the non-free flash plugin is the one that everybody's using.
[06:22] <manchicken_> nixternal: No, I haven't.  I hear there are only a select few that work with GNU/Linux.
[06:22] <nixternal> I am using it here now on my lappy since gnash wasn't any good prior to 0.8.x
[06:22] <manchicken_> nixternal: System76 has a lappy with one in it.
[06:23] <nixternal> ahh ya they do...I am probably going to pick up the Logitech one at Best Buy, since it seems they are pretty well supported with Linux
[06:23] <gnomefreak> sort of yes and we can fix minor things with our package if at all im not disagreeing with you i am answering your question
[06:23] <nixternal> manchicken_: didn't you know? it is GNU + Linux now...at least that is what RMS is saying now :)
[06:23] <manchicken_> gnomefreak: But then that wouldn't have anything to do with amd64, that would be a system-wide thing.
[06:23] <gnomefreak> nixternal: we are making it better every release :) although im one of those people :(
[06:24] <manchicken_> nixternal: He still writes it GNU/Linux
[06:24] <gnomefreak> manchicken_: ubuntu doesnt package 64bit flash at all that is why they tell people to use 32bit
[06:24] <manchicken_> gnomefreak: Nobody packages 64-bit non-free flash.  It doesn't exist.
[06:24] <nixternal> manchicken_: ya..but he said it in the gplv3 release, and then I have seen a couple of his other talks on YouTube/Google Video where he is saying it with the + now
[06:25] <nixternal> Penguin SWV is supposedly working on that as we speak
[06:25] <manchicken_> nixternal: That's because saying "gnu plus linux" is easier than saying "gnu slash linux"
[06:25] <manchicken_> nixternal: I just say "gnu linux"
[06:25] <nixternal> same here
[06:25] <nixternal> and people complain about that, but not "Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic Edition"
[06:26] <manchicken_> Yeah.
[06:26] <manchicken_> It's silly what people complain about.
[06:26] <nixternal> hell, Microsoft has to use 2 boxes just to get that all on there :)
[06:27] <nixternal> OK, gotta run...Philosophy class is calling me...and I am sure I am barely hanging on in that class as it is
[06:31] <manchicken_> Wuddup allee?
[07:19] <Riddell> "/kmail/kmpopfiltercnfrmdlg.h:82: error: call of overloaded 'KDialogBase()' is ambiguous"
[07:19] <Riddell> mm, shouldn't that dialogue stuff be fixed?
[07:19] <Riddell> or is autopkgtest running behind?
[07:23] <fdoving> so.. should packages in universe have the motu list as maintainer, is that what debuild is bitching about?
[07:23] <fdoving> i can't just change it to my self.. it seems.
[07:24] <fdoving> Riddell: did you get my message about the patch on kdebase that should be removed now that kio-umountwrapper is in main?
[07:25] <ScottK> fdoving: If you have an ubuntu.com e-mail address you can make it you (kubuntu.org too).
[07:25] <Riddell> fdoving: yes, I did that
[07:25] <ScottK> debuild will still bitch, but you can ignore it.
[07:25] <fdoving> Riddell: nice. thanks.
[07:26] <Riddell> fdoving: yes, Maintainer should be MOTU address and Original-Maintainer you
[07:26] <Riddell> although I don't always stick to that, mainly because I can never be bothered to look it up
[07:27] <fdoving> Riddell: when the change is a small fix i find that strange.. but i'll change it anyway. original maintainer is debian kde extras team, which does both ubuntu and debian package for this specific one.
[07:29] <ScottK> Riddell: I have a good hint for you on solving the KDE update-manager bug.  Do you have a moment to discuss?
[07:30] <ScottK> maybe mhb...
[07:30] <ScottK> mhb: How's your C/C++?
[07:31] <fdoving> what bug # is that?
[07:31] <ScottK> fdoving: Bug #117731 is the one with the reduced test case.
[07:31] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 117731 in python-kde3 "Python crashes after attaching pty to a konsole kpart" [High,Triaged]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/117731
[07:32] <Riddell> ScottK: oh?
[07:32] <ScottK> The deal is that in edgy-updates the file konsole/konsole/konsole_part.h got added as a patch to the python-kde3 package
[07:32] <Riddell> yes
[07:33] <mhb> ScottK: not bad, I'd say
[07:33] <ScottK> It looks like the merge from edgy to feisty for python-kde3 was done based on what was in edgy, not edgy updates.
[07:33] <ScottK> So I went through the changes in edgy updates and they've all (eventually) gotten incorporated.
[07:34] <ScottK> The one lingering issue is that konsole_part.h is now shipped in the konsole package
[07:34] <ScottK> But it's been modified.
[07:35] <Riddell> mm hmm
[07:35] <ScottK> In particular a public function name is missing from the current one (as best I can read C, which is not at all).
[07:36] <Riddell> which name?
[07:36] <ScottK> virtual bool setPtyFd(int);
[07:36] <ScottK> Seemed relevant.
[07:36] <ScottK> Dunno though.  I know zippo C/C++
[07:36] <mhb> eh?
[07:36] <mhb> which is pretty much the method that causes the crash
[07:36] <mhb> ain't it?
[07:36] <fdoving> the patch for that is in python-kde3.
[07:36] <ScottK> Hmmm
[07:37] <Riddell> ScottK: setPtyFd() is in kubuntu_86_konsole_pty.diff
[07:38] <Riddell> which adds it to konsole_part.h in kdebase
[07:38] <ScottK> Urgh.
[07:38] <ScottK> OK.
[07:39] <Riddell> although I agree it's probably that method which causes the crash
[07:39] <ScottK> In any case, I think it might well be fruitful for someone who actually understands the code to go through the edgy-updates and current versions (as patched) of the file.
[07:39] <Riddell> ScottK: you can try http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/konsole/kdebase_pty_test.cc and see if that causes the issue
[07:40] <ScottK> mhb already got me a good python test case (in the bug above).
[07:41] <mhb> a C++ one is good for ruling out kdebase infection
[07:42] <Riddell> it should have instructions at the top
[07:43] <ScottK> compiling yes, running no.
[07:43] <Riddell> ./a.out
[07:43] <ryanakca> Riddell: where was the cache for ksplash (to see the gutsy ksplash theme instead of the old feisty one)
[07:44] <Riddell> ryanakca: /home/jr/.kde/share/apps/ksplash/cache/Moodin/kubuntu/
[07:44] <ryanakca> Riddell: ah, thanks :)
[07:45] <mhb> ScottK: does it crash?
[07:46] <ScottK> mhb: Still getting it.  There's a quick way for you to find out ;-)
[07:46] <fdoving> that app test-app works for me.
[07:47] <fdoving> says: (child) hello world 2
[07:47] <fdoving> and gives me a commandprompt.
[07:47] <mhb> ScottK: well, my system has 1GB RAM, so I'm not affected
[07:47] <ScottK> Ah
[07:47] <mhb> fdoving: it affects only some systems, low memory ones mostly
[07:48] <fdoving> mhb: oh, so both my 2G systems will survive i guess.
[07:48] <ScottK> OTOH if you can look at memory usage when you run it, you'd know if you'd replicated it as the observable on low memory systems is out of memory.
[07:50] <Riddell> yes
[07:50] <ryanakca> hehe
[07:50] <fdoving> http://rafb.net/p/H79bKo49.html
[07:50] <fdoving> that's what a simple 'valgrind ./a.out' says.
[07:52] <Riddell> fdoving: doesn't look so bad
[07:57] <mhb> ScottK: what's the problem? Why can't you test it?
[07:57] <ScottK> Because I am in a completely different part of the universe than I'm used to working in.
[07:58] <fdoving> ScottK: can you run a ./a.out? - i can publish the a.out if you trust me not to compile a rm -rf / program :)
[07:59] <ScottK> I should if that's all I have to do.
[07:59] <fdoving> or, i could give you the commands in a numbered order.
[07:59] <ScottK> Whichever is easier for you.
[07:59] <fdoving> 1. wget http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/konsole/kdebase_pty_test.cc
[07:59] <ScottK> I've got that file.
[07:59] <fdoving> 2. moc-qt3 kdebase_pty_test.cc > kdebase_pty_test.moc
[08:00] <fdoving> 3. g++ kdebase_pty_test.cc -I/usr/include/kde/ -I/usr/include/qt3 -lutil -lqt-mt -lkdecore -lkdeui
[08:00] <fdoving> 4. ./a.out
[08:00] <ScottK> moc-qt3 command not found.
[08:00] <ScottK> I did install moc, but it doesn't provide that.
[08:00] <fdoving> sudo aptitude install qt3-dev-tools
[08:01] <ScottK> OK.
[08:01] <ScottK> Installing.
[08:02] <ScottK> OK.  THat worked
[08:04] <mhb> ScottK: does that mean you get no error?
[08:04] <ScottK> No it means I could run step 2.
[08:05] <ScottK> clearly I need some more -dev packages.
[08:05] <fdoving> yeah.
[08:06] <fdoving> kdelibs4-dev and libqt3-mt-dev
[08:06] <ScottK> OK.  Getting those.
[08:07] <ScottK> Yeah.  56 newliy installed.
[08:09] <ScottK> On the off chance it's useful, the diff of konsole_part.h from gutsy to the edgy-updates version is http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/31130/
[08:09] <ScottK> While everything else installs.
[08:11] <Riddell> ScottK: diff in kdebase or python-kde3?
[08:13] <ScottK> The diff from the konsole_part.h file from Gutsy kdebase to edgy-updates konsole_part.h file from python-kde3.
[08:13] <ScottK> Ran the program.  No crash.
[08:13] <ScottK> It popped open a window (child) hello world2
[08:14] <mhb> ScottK: thanks
[08:14] <ScottK> (parent) and (child) hello world1 are on the konsole.
[08:15] <ScottK> Your python test case still fails reliably.
[08:16] <fdoving> where is the python testcase?
[08:16] <ScottK> https://launchpad.net/bugs/117731
[08:16] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 117731 in python-kde3 "Python crashes after attaching pty to a konsole kpart" [High,Triaged] 
[08:16] <ScottK> Attached to the bug.
[08:16] <fdoving> k, sounds like a python-kde3 problem then.
[08:16] <fdoving> kdebase must be good as the cpp version works.
[08:17] <ScottK> OK.
[08:17] <Riddell> does valgrind work on python?
[08:17] <ScottK> Dunno.  Never tried it.
[08:17] <fdoving> In file tools/qgvector.cpp, line 176: Out of memory
[08:17] <mhb> Riddell: is adept using the setptyfd() method?
[08:17] <fdoving> hmm.
[08:19] <Riddell> mhb: no
[08:20] <Riddell> it just run stuff with libap then dpkg commands for what's shown on the konsole
[08:21] <ScottK-laptop> You can run python through valgrind.  It's, of course, very slow.
[08:21] <fdoving> looks like you need to do some modifications for it to work properly: http://svn.python.org/projects/python/trunk/Misc/README.valgrind
[08:29] <ScottK> Well it looks to me like it's hanging in Konsole, not the python.
[08:29] <ScottK> Give me a minute to kill it and I'll provide possible evidence.
[08:32] <fdoving> why does the cpp test work then?
[08:33] <Riddell> python may be doing something different with the pty it passes to the c++ bit
[08:34] <ScottK> The OOM killer is stil thrashing that box.
[08:37] <ScottK> See http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/31138/ - When is hit the kdecore line hard drive usage went through the roof (system was immediately deep into swap).
[08:38] <ScottK> is/it
[08:42] <ScottK> fdoving: The way I read the python README for valgrind, it'll miss some leaks.  That's not our problem here.  It's not a leak, but continuing allocation.
[08:43] <ScottK-laptop> valgrind finished running.  The final report is http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/31140/
[08:44] <Riddell> doesn't look like much is lost
[08:44] <Riddell> although I'd expect that since it seems to recover itself if it doesn't run out of memory
[08:46] <ScottK> Right, but look how much is in use?
[08:46] <ScottK> It's not losing memory, just grabbing it.
[08:47] <Riddell> mm, right, 500MB, bit greedy
[08:47] <ScottK> And it was still going when I killed it.
[08:52] <fdoving> so.. some kind of loop somewhere?
[08:53] <ScottK> That's what I'm guessing.
[08:54] <ScottK> And I'm guessing it's in the Konsole code somewhere.
[08:54] <fdoving> from the diff i didn't see any obvious loops.
[08:54] <fdoving> in konsole_part then?
[08:54] <ScottK> Not sure why Riddell's test case failed though.
[08:54] <ScottK> Right.
[08:55] <Riddell> might gdb help?
[08:55] <Riddell> not sure how well that works with python
[08:55] <ScottK> It does look to me like both kdebase and python-kde3 patches patch in the setPtyFd function in the konsole_part. Could that  cause a problem?
[08:56] <ScottK> There is a -dbg package for python-kde3, not sure how to work it.
[08:57] <Riddell> yes they both include it through patches, that's not going to cause a problem any more than having it natively does
[08:57] <ScottK> OK.
[09:01] <fdoving> Riddell: could you upload
[09:01] <ScottK> As nearly as I can determine, what gets passed to the konsole_part is setPtyFd(10).
[09:01] <fdoving>  mailody_0.5.0-2ubuntu1 from http://ubuntu.lnix.net/archive/gutsy/ ?  - fixes an evil bug.
[09:01] <ScottK> Which looks like what it would expect.
[09:04] <Riddell> fdoving: is there a bug number for that?
[09:04] <fdoving> Riddell: no launchpad one, no.
[09:05] <Riddell> fdoving: but upstream?
[09:05] <fdoving> no, i just checked. nothing, i can give you an irc-log copy-paste :)
[09:06] <fdoving> it's a dead-simple patch, for a stupid copy/paste error in a imap-flag removal function.
[09:06] <fdoving> http://rafb.net/p/7grvcM98.html basically
[09:08] <Riddell> fdoving: uploaded
[09:08] <Riddell> thanks
[09:08] <fdoving> ScottK: do you have konsole_part.cpp for edgy and feisty around? - might make sense to diff those too i guess. loops rarely occure in .h files.
[09:08] <Riddell> fdoving: I changed the patch name to kubuntu_.. as is my custom, and the encoding on the changelog seemed funny
[09:09] <fdoving> Riddell: ok, changelogs rarely handle the '' in my name properly.
[09:10] <Riddell> strange that, it should all be utf8 happy
[09:10] <ScottK> fdoving: I have edgy and edgy updates.  Edgy and Feisty/Gutsy are broken.  edgy-updates is not.
[09:11] <fdoving> scottk, can you diff konsole_part.cpp.working to konsole_part.cpp.broken like you did for .h?
[09:11] <ScottK> Riddell: In other news, python-kde3 is not currently buildable in Gutsy because the siip4-qt3 version is now to high.
[09:11] <Riddell> you can get old sources from launchpad
[09:12] <Riddell> ScottK: erk
[09:12] <ScottK> Yeah.
[09:12] <Riddell> does it work if you change the version needed in build-dep
[09:12] <Riddell> ?
[09:13] <ScottK> build-dep sip4 (<< 4.6) and we have 4.6-1ubuntu1
[09:13] <ScottK> Dunno.
[09:13] <ScottK> I'll try that.
[09:18] <fdoving> Riddell: thanks for pointing the encoding issue out, made me find the issue. .bashrc didn't have utf8 chars. fixed :)
[09:20] <Riddell> ah hah
[09:22] <ScottK> Riddell: ???
[09:33] <ryanakca> hmm. Anybody feel like 'mentoring' me on the qcomicbook merge? (where the two .orig.tar.gz differ)
[09:34] <ScottK> Ah...  Look at the differences and put them together into one package that works in Ubuntu???
[09:35] <fdoving> you probably want to use whatever debian does :)
[09:35] <fdoving> hacking orig.tar.gz isn't usually nice.
[09:35] <fdoving> unless it is needed for some reason.
[09:35] <DaSkreech> ryanakca: That's a Comic book viewer right?
[09:35] <ScottK> -2 points to fdoving for an anwer that provides a potentially useful hint.
[09:38] <fdoving> ryanakca: which .orig.tar.gz differ? debian and?
[09:39] <ryanakca> DaSkreech: yes
[09:39] <ryanakca> fdoving: Debian and Ubuntu.
[09:39] <DaSkreech> ok
[09:40] <ryanakca> fdoving: ah, so if it's in universe-manual.html, I just have to review the changes, and check if it can be sync'ed, and if not, some how merge it?
[09:40] <fdoving> f93f29e0635f8fe64f036bf654050438  deb/qcomicbook_0.3.4.orig.tar.gz
[09:40] <fdoving> f93f29e0635f8fe64f036bf654050438  qcomicbook_0.3.4.orig.tar.gz
[09:41] <fdoving> looks pretty similar to me.
[09:41] <fdoving> that's gutsy and unstable.
[09:41] <DaSkreech> Trying to se if there is a market for a KomicBookKreator
[09:42] <ryanakca> fdoving: ok, so, what's the difference between universe.html and universe-manual.html on MOM ?
[09:42] <fdoving> ryanakca: you are correct, review changes, chekc if it can be synced, synced.
[09:43] <fdoving> ryanakca: no idea, i'm not up2date in the MOTU world, my focus is more on KDE things when i have some minutes of computing time. #ubuntu-motu is probably a better place for that question.
[09:44] <fdoving> ryanakca: is it in universe-manual? - packages.ubuntu.com  says multiverse here. might have something to do with that.
[09:44] <fdoving> .. maybe.
[09:47] <ryanakca> hmm.
[09:51] <ScottK> fdoving: I haven't forgetten your diff.  Just multi-taksing here.
[10:03] <fdoving> ScottK: yeah, me too, trying to figure out how to remove some textile cover-thing from a kid-car-seat. not as simple as one would think.
[10:03] <ScottK> fdoving: blow torch.
[10:03] <fdoving> heh.. yeah :)
[10:30] <fdoving> so.. am i the only one with alsa sound problems in gutsy?
[10:31] <DaSkreech> Riddell: Awake?
[10:32] <ScottK> He said "ah hah" about an hour ago and went silent.
[10:32] <ScottK> I'm still wondering why.
[10:33] <fdoving> probably my encoding issue.
[10:34] <fdoving> .. the "ah hah" that is.
[10:34] <mhb> fdoving: surely you're not the only one, but sound is working here
[10:34] <ScottK> I was hoping for the setpty issue myself.
[10:35] <mhb> ScottK: you still can, fdoving was probably right
[10:35] <ScottK> No, I was hoping he fixed it.
[10:35] <fdoving> mhb: it does work here too, but looks like dmix doesn't work as it did in feisty. amarok can't change songs properly.. results in a crash. it does play the first song though.
[10:35] <mhb> ScottK: ah.
[10:36] <ScottK> fdoving: One thing I note is the TEPty.h is patched in edgy-update to include the SetPtyFd function and not in Gutsy.  Could that be related to this problem?
[10:37] <fdoving> scottk, might be.
[10:37] <mhb> fdoving: changing tracks in amarok works here, too. I might not have the newest build, though.
[10:46] <ScottK-laptop> fdoving: Here's your diff.  I wonder about setting autodestroy to false...  http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/31150/
[10:48] <fdoving> so.. those are removed in edgy-updates?
[10:48] <fdoving> those lines, that is.
[10:48] <ScottK-laptop> Yes.  Diff is gutsy to edgy-updates
[10:51] <fdoving> i'll try to comment those lines and do a rebuild of kdebase.
[10:56] <Riddell> DaSkreech: a bit
[10:56] <DaSkreech> Riddell: would it be possible to ship two supported CDs?
[10:57] <ScottK-laptop> fdoving: You might also consider http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/31154/
[10:57] <ScottK-laptop> That's also from an edgy-updates patch
[10:57] <Riddell> DaSkreech: nope
[10:58] <DaSkreech> So KDE4 must remain Unsupported till gutsy+2 ?
[10:59] <ScottK> Riddell: No, python-kde3 doesn't build with the new sip4.
[10:59] <fdoving> ScottK-laptop: that is there in gutsy.
[10:59] <ScottK> fdoving: OK.  I missed it when I looked.  Thanks.
[11:00] <Riddell> ScottK: arse
[11:01] <DaSkreech> That's Depressing :(
[11:01] <fdoving> how bad does it fail?
[11:02] <fdoving> hmm.. messing around in amaroks xine engine configs made sound work properly somehow. that is strange.
[11:03] <fdoving> probably some old configs breaking my setup.. as usual.
[11:03] <ScottK-laptop> fdoving: It was trying to make sipkdeuipart0.o for about an hour without making any progress at all.  Just hung and thrashed the machine while it tried to build.
[11:05] <ScottK-laptop> Here's the relevant bit of the build log up to and including when I killed it: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/31156/
[11:06] <fdoving> i'll give it a shot.
[11:08] <DaSkreech> mhb: :-(
[11:18] <mhb> DaSkreech: well, what can we do?
[11:18] <ScottK> DaSkreech: I'm sure if someone wanted to pay for a supported KDE4, Canonical would be happy to oblige.
[11:18] <DaSkreech> I know
[11:19] <mhb> DaSkreech: except maybe start and fix bugs in KDE4, so that when it comes out, it's bulletproof and we may have a tiny chance of convincing someone to fix it
[11:19] <mhb> fix the situation
[11:19] <DaSkreech> But I was thinking that the issue was we couldn't ship KDE4 for Gutsy+1 because of LTS
[11:20] <ScottK> Can ship it, just in Universe and not by default.
[11:20] <DaSkreech> ScottK: And unsupported
[11:20] <DaSkreech> I mean I know we will have Cds
[11:20] <ScottK> Surre.
[11:20] <DaSkreech> We will for Gutsy
[11:21] <DaSkreech> but I think that "normal" support during the LTS cycle will be good
[11:21] <DaSkreech> It will Help the uptake of KDE4 and ramp up our abilty to support it
[11:21] <mhb> ScottK: KDE4 will be a good marketing advantage, and having it in universe is not exactly a good way to say "we're the best KDE4 there is"
[11:21] <ScottK> Of course you're free to do your own remix
[11:21] <mhb> ScottK: I think that's what DaSkreech meant
[11:22] <ScottK> Depends on your audience.
[11:22] <ScottK> WIth geeks, yes, with people who pay for support, no.
[11:22] <DaSkreech> ScottK: I think we are talking about different things :)
[11:23] <ScottK> How so?
[11:23] <mhb> ScottK: sure, but I think the amount of support cash flow is proportional to the number of developers
[11:23] <DaSkreech> ScottK: And people who pay for support are more likely to go with LTS or our mundane ordinary support you think? :-)
[11:23] <ScottK> For business, works well and is proven is a lot more important than shiny.
[11:23] <ScottK> LTS.
[11:23] <mhb> ScottK: and we have one, and it's not likely to change
[11:24] <DaSkreech> ScottK: Which is why we should have a supoprted KDE4 CD during LTS without LTS support
[11:24] <ScottK> Well yes, but the point is we are about to have another and what KDE should it use.
[11:24] <DaSkreech>  we LTS KDE3 which is proevn and old and grumpy and supported
[11:24] <DaSkreech>  and we haev a net for people who don't care about paid support but want some help
[11:24] <DaSkreech> ScottK: LTS KDE3
[11:25] <DaSkreech> No doubt
[11:25] <ScottK> Sure, but we have that regardless (the net)
[11:25] <DaSkreech> But I don't think we should have an unsupported KDE4 during that time period
[11:25] <DaSkreech>  I also don't think we should have a LTS kde4
[11:26] <ScottK> DaSkreech: Do you have a paid support contract?
[11:26] <DaSkreech> Nope
[11:26] <ScottK> So what does it matter.
[11:27] <mhb> ScottK: there are some questions somebody should answer. One of them: are we (JR and the community) able to deliver something that will make the corporate customers want the paid support for Kubuntu KDE3 LTS?
[11:27] <fdoving> if we get paid for it, sure :)
[11:27] <ScottK> Agreed.
[11:28] <mhb> fdoving: we won't, because we don't ship something that sells well
[11:28] <ScottK> mhb: That was actually the reason I went through the pain of getting S/MIME by default for kmail in the repositories and not just making it work on my box.
[11:28] <fdoving> paid support makes money, i won't give canonical my support for free if they charge for it.
[11:29] <ScottK> more and more, businesses need crypto.
[11:29] <ScottK> fdoving: OTOH, we need to help out enough to make sure there is a revenue stream that justifies what Canonical puts into Kubuntu.  It's a fine balance.
[11:30] <fdoving> then i can simpy supply paid support by myself, and make money from it.
[11:31] <ScottK> Sure.  Nothing stopping you.
[11:31] <mhb> fdoving: it's not about us selling support, but us coding something that increases the stream of support money to canonical.
[11:31] <ScottK> So that Canonical will continue to invest in Kubuntu.
[11:32] <fdoving> mhb: then if they need paid support for it, they will hire/educate someone to provide that.
[11:33] <mhb> I really shouldn't start discussions like this
[11:33] <ScottK> mhb: This is nothing.   I was in a 4 hour launchpad shouldn't be proprietary rant on #ubuntu-motu a couple of weeks ago.
[11:34] <DaSkreech> Well do we have any stats as to the number of people getting kubuntu support contracts vs ubuntu ?
[11:34] <ScottK> No.  Only Canonical knows.
[11:34] <DaSkreech> mhb: Of course you could also say we could make a product so good that canonical doesn't get any support money :)
[11:34] <DaSkreech> And some of that data can't be revealed :(
[11:34] <fdoving> ScottK: did you test with sip4_4.6-1ubuntu1 ?
[11:35] <ScottK> Yes
[11:35] <mhb> ScottK: well I have some info about this
[11:35] <ScottK> You do?
[11:37] <mhb> ScottK: yes, from what I know they don't see much interest in Kubuntu
[11:37] <ScottK> OK.
[11:37] <ScottK> Having IMAP not suck in Kmail would be a big help too, but I can't fix that.
[11:38] <fdoving> ScottK, riddell: python-kde3_3.16.0-0ubuntu11 builds fine for me with sip4_4.6-1ubuntu1
[11:38] <mhb> ScottK: Mark said Canonical'd put more money into Kubuntu if they did see the interest, but they don't.
[11:38] <DaSkreech> mhb: Well if you have an ear ask them to give a list of thigns that need to be improved
[11:38] <fdoving> ScottK: use mailody :)
[11:38] <fdoving> .. or if you need S/MIME.. dont
[11:38] <mhb> DaSkreech: I don't have any connections to the corporate world
[11:39] <ScottK> Right.  I need S/MIME.
[11:39] <mhb> DaSkreech: I can guess the umbrella branding doesn't help much, also we have close to zero marketing.
[11:40] <DaSkreech> Well I guess it would be nice to keep a track of how many downloads etc we have
[11:41] <DaSkreech>  I think that Fedora has a good system to keep a track of how many people are using the OS which is admirable
[11:41] <ScottK> Ah, the embedded spyware...
[11:41] <DaSkreech> How is it spyware?
[11:41] <mhb> DaSkreech: I reckon the numbers are quite high, but those are common users who know what KDE is, and like the Ubuntu way.
[11:42] <DaSkreech> thats good enough
[11:43] <mhb> DaSkreech: sure it's good, but it's not the community that "pays the Canonical's bills"
[11:45] <mhb> 23:45  * ScottK thinks that the Kubuntu team groupware server project could be a good leverage point into
[11:45] <mhb> err, sorry
[11:45] <mhb> evil paste newlines
[11:45] <fdoving> ScottK: crashes with the modifications to konsole, commented the lines added, selfdestruction etc.
[11:45] <ScottK> OK.  So that's not it.
[11:49] <DaSkreech> mhb: They will
[11:49] <mhb> my bottom line: We're appealing to the common users who like KDE now. With the upcoming LTS, we will lose some of the user base to Fedora or any other system with KDE4 out-of-the-box (you know how marketing works).
[11:51] <mhb> Are we, as a developer and a community, able to ship something based on KDE3 that will overturn the current little interest in Kubuntu on the corporate market?
[11:51] <DaSkreech> And I think rightly so if we are making it the red headed gnome footed child
[11:51] <DaSkreech> no offense gnomefreak :)
[11:51] <gnomefreak> none taken
[11:53] <DaSkreech> mhb: Should we be a corporate distro?
[11:54] <ScottK> See you all later.  Gotta run.
[11:56] <mhb> DaSkreech: No, but LTS is a pro-corporate release. We abandoned KDE4 because of it. Thus we lose some user base. Are we able to create something that makes up for the user base loss?
[11:56] <mhb> abandoned KDE4-as-default, I mean
[11:56] <DaSkreech> Ah
[11:56] <DaSkreech> ok
[11:56] <DaSkreech>  See the reasoning
[11:57] <fdoving> mhb: my guess is that kde 4.0 will be a "not so polished" release, even though most features will be in, it won't be finished.
[11:58] <fdoving> not something i would push to a school or huge organization that needs real work done.
[11:58] <mhb> DaSkreech: Going risky and trying to market itself as "the corporate distro with the latest and greatest KDE" could be a better strategy.
[11:59] <mhb> fdoving: perhaps so, but what is it that will make them want Kubuntu and not SLED,RHEL or Ubuntu?
[11:59] <DaSkreech> fdoving: but offering no support for it is wrong
[12:00] <fdoving> mhb: apt/dpkg and KDE.
[12:00] <fdoving> DaSkreech: no support as in?
[12:00] <DaSkreech> mhb: No I don't think Kde4.0 shoudl be LTS
[12:00] <DaSkreech>  not by a long shot
[12:00] <mhb> fdoving: that didn't help much the last time.
[12:01] <DaSkreech> fdoving: Far as I understand it KDe4 will be a not by default not supported set of  packages until Gutsy+2
[12:01] <fdoving> DaSkreech: not supported as in it will probably be impossible to backport all fixes to it for 5 years. i belive.
[12:02] <DaSkreech> fdoving: Hmm?
[12:03] <mhb> will there be any fixes from upstream KDE for KDE3?
[12:03] <ryanakca> vim or emacs.
[12:03] <fdoving> DaSkreech: LTS support for KDE 4 will be a fulltime job. there will be so much fixes in the rest of the KDE 4 releases taht would need to be backported to 4.0. backporting securityfixes and closing bugs in kde 4.0 won't make much sense if it's not done upstream.
[12:03] <DaSkreech> ryanakca: joe!
[12:04] <fdoving> mhb: probably not, if they are seriously grave maybe.
[12:05] <mhb> fdoving: so we're supporting a release of KDE that won't get any fixes from upstream at all. That's also not a very good situation, is it?
[12:05] <fdoving> mhb: kde people are nice, nothing is impossible.
[12:06] <mhb> fdoving: sure they're nice, but they want to push KDE4 forward, they'll be all fixing bugs for KDE4
[12:07] <ScottK> It's been that way for quite some time.  I don't think it'll get measureable worse.
[12:07] <fdoving> mhb: i'd rather support 3.5.7-8 than 4.0. 4.x will have much much more activity, things will probably change alot for 4.1, supporting 4.0 means backporting atleast all security fixes to 4.0.
[12:07] <fdoving> kde 3.5 is easier to support, it's prooven, it's been around for some time.
[12:07] <mhb> fdoving: I totally understand your point.
[12:08] <mhb> fdoving: OTOH, I think Kubuntu dapper (KDE with apt/dpkg) didn't convince many corporate entities and we have little to offer now, we have no killer app that will overturn the little interest for Kubuntu
[12:08] <fdoving> mhb: the french parliment chose kubuntu :)
[12:10] <mhb> fdoving: yeah, but we have one paid developer from Canonical and there's little or no gain for Canonical now.
[12:10] <ScottK> mhb: The killer app is kontact + groupware server replacing  Outlook/Exhcange.
[12:11] <mhb> fdoving: but there are more and more Ubuntu employees
[12:12] <ScottK> But many/most work on stuff that benifit's Kubuntu too (e.g. calc showing up to maintain OOO).
[12:12] <fdoving> mhb: it makes sense. who gets the most manpower+money makes the better product. it's simple.
[12:12] <mhb> fdoving: yeah, and who makes less money will be developed mostly by community
[12:13] <mhb> crystal clear to me.
[12:13] <mhb> but why are we making a LTS version without any new killer apps? The users (the community) will decrease and we'll gain nothing.
[12:14] <fdoving> because it's an LTS release.
[12:14] <fdoving>  we want something that works.
[12:14] <DaSkreech> fdoving: I don't want LTS KDE4
[12:14] <fdoving> and something we know will continue to work.
[12:14] <fdoving> DaSkreech: i want it, but i don't want the patching job :)
[12:14] <mhb> fdoving: who's we? The users will want KDE4 and the corporations won't choose Kubuntu in the first place.
[12:15] <mhb> ah, going nowhere, I'd better stay quiet.
[12:15] <mhb> sorry for bothering you folks
[12:15] <DaSkreech> I think that the people who care about LTS care about KDE4 as much as they care about Vista Aero
[12:15] <fdoving> mhb: we'll see, if we provide kde4 as an option they can choose to use that.