[09:01] <mdke> mpt: well, those pages all do; I was thinking more of the question of how/whether to incorporate that material into our styleguide
[09:01] <nixternal> mornin'
[09:01] <Admiral_laptop> hehe, i see i'm not the online up nixternal :)
[09:01] <nixternal> huh?
[09:02] <nixternal> haha
[09:02] <nixternal> only one you mean?
[09:02] <nixternal> stinkin' broken gtk
[09:03] <Admiral_laptop> i broke this server, its not passing information correctly anymore
[09:03] <Admiral_laptop> i meant only one in our area. the other chicago channels are dead
[09:13] <mdke> morning all
[09:14] <mdke> nixternal: fancy approving the fridge story in the queue?
[09:15] <nixternal> will do now
[09:15] <mdke> thanks
[09:16] <mdke> it's nice to have a bit of momentum behind docs again, way to go philbull
[09:16] <nixternal> done
[09:16] <nixternal> no doubt
[09:16] <nixternal> seen a few new faces today as well
[09:17] <mdke> cool
[09:31] <mdke> nixternal: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/IndependentDocEfforts?action=show - any comments
[09:32] <mdke> i can't really think of a good response to the "i'm making money" justification
[09:35] <Admiral_laptop> might also want to talk to the folks behing http://ubuntuguide.org
[09:36] <mdke> I think that's one of those listed
[09:36] <Admiral_laptop> nope
[09:37] <mdke> yes, it is
[09:38] <Admiral_laptop> which one?
[09:38] <mdke> fourth on the list
[09:38] <Admiral_laptop> dur, my glasses need to be upped i think. can't read.
[09:40] <mdke> :)
[09:42] <Admiral_laptop> the only thing I can think of about the money argument would be to link back to the original source
[09:50] <mdke> ok, gtg
[09:50] <mdke> cya
[11:54] <kwah> hi! simple question: is localized documentation https://help.ubuntu.com/ available online?
[11:55] <dsas> kwah: Each locoteam may localise it and store it on their own loco site.
[11:56] <dsas> e.g. the italian loco team have it on help.ubuntu-it.org
[11:57] <kwah> dsas, as far as I understand help.ubuntu.com contains the same doecumentation as in System - Help and support menu
[11:57] <dsas> kwah: That's right (except for the content under help.ubuntu.com/community)
[11:57] <kwah> So, this docmunentation is translated through synaptic
[11:58] <dsas> kwah: It's translated through Rosetta (launchpad) and installed as a "langpack" like other software.
[11:58] <kwah> and it used to be available via common web-site
[11:58] <kwah> why did it change?
[11:59] <kwah> sorry, of course through launchpad
[11:59] <dsas> kwah: The english HTML versions  are then uploaded to help.ubuntu.com and other teams take a copy of their translated html versions and upload to their webspace.
[11:59] <dsas> kwah: As for why it changed, I don't know. Maybe part of the better-wiki-docs spec.
[12:00] <kwah> hm. how loco team can get this sort of documentation for upload on their own web-space?
[12:00] <kwah> i mean translated version of course
[12:02] <dsas> kwah: I think you have to build it yourself (this is pretty easy I think)
[12:02] <kwah> the only way I see right now is to build it myself
[12:02] <dsas> kwah: Maybe \https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation will help (see the "testing translation" part)
[12:02] <kwah> right
[12:02] <kwah> ok thanks.
[12:03] <kwah> dsas, I will check this out
[12:03] <kwah> btw, do you know about any efforts to structure wiki taking into account available translations?
[12:04] <kwah> here I mean community pages of help.ubuntu.com
[12:04] <dsas> kwah: I think current policy is that each loco team does this on their own wiki.
[12:04] <dsas> kwah: I am not very involved with the docteam though, mdke, nixternal and others know more than I.
[12:05] <kwah> dsas, thanks for your help and time.
[12:05] <dsas> kwah: no problem, hope I have helped.
[12:06] <kwah> yep. thanks.
[01:06] <ian_brasil_> nixternal: hi...i put the guide in /ubuntu-doc/generic on my machine here
[01:35] <ubotu> New bug: #128495 in ubuntu-docs (main) "The Installation section of the Switching from Windows guide is out of date" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/128495
[05:11] <nixternal> holy smokes! that docuMENTORS post brought a ton of movement in no time!
[05:11] <jjesse> i know its awesome
[05:11] <jjesse> hoepfully we can get some peple to work on kubuntu docs out of them
[05:12] <nixternal> hehe
[05:12] <nixternal> no love man :)
[05:12] <jjesse> i know, never is
[05:12] <nixternal> hey, did I tell you...this weekend Phil and I had lunch? he is/was in town working at Fermi lab right up the street
[05:12] <jjesse> oh that's cool
[05:12] <jjesse> i'm in chicago again in sept i think
[05:13] <nixternal> ya, he is way Kool :)
[05:13] <nixternal> so am I! what a coincidence :)
[05:13] <jjesse> the week of the 2nd
[06:10] <tristanbob_> mdke: did you see my comment on your blog?
[06:10] <tristanbob_> just posted
[06:45] <tristanbob> mdke: sorry if I missed your reply - had to reboot
[07:07] <jjesse> tristanbob: i don't think there was a reply in irc
[07:11] <tristanbob> thanks jjesse
[07:12] <jjesse> np
[08:02] <bdmurray> How did you advertise your mentoring program?
[08:08] <jjesse> bdmurray: hadd a docteam meeting yesterday and then sent an email to ubuntu-doc mailing list
[08:09] <jjesse> also mdke wrote a note on his blog
[08:10] <bdmurray> ah the power of the blog
[08:11] <jjesse> ah the power of a planet :)
[08:20] <bdmurray> Incidentally, how do you all run Gutsy?
[08:20] <bdmurray> On real hardware or in a virtual machine . . .
[08:29] <tristanbob> Matthew,  agree with your point, we should work together to create excellent documentation that can be found in one place.
[08:29] <tristanbob> If that is our goal, dont you think it is about time the Ubuntu Wiki provided a WSIWYG editing interface? I remember the first time I had to learn wiki style editing, and it is was a frustrating experience. This learning curve is an unnecessary barrier that stops many people from contributing to the wiki.
[08:29] <tristanbob> What do you guys think about that?
[08:30] <tristanbob> Any plans to add WSIWG functionality to the wiki?
[08:30] <jjesse> tristanbob: i don't know how much control we as a documentation team have over what wiki engine is used
[08:31] <tristanbob> probably no control, but definitely influence
[08:35] <mdke> bdmurray: the fridge. Didn't blog yet
[08:35] <mdke> tristanbob: yes, I've read your comment
[08:36] <mdke> tristanbob: but I just got home from work so haven't had an opportunity to reply yet
[08:36] <tristanbob> mdke: np
[08:39] <mdke> tristanbob: we've been pushing for an update to the wiki software for a long time but the sysadmins seem to be rather resistant. I will try and raise the subject again. But, I don't think the wysiwyg editor is a huge barrier to contribution for most people, because wiki markup is in fact incredibly simple
[08:40] <mdke> an update would be helpful for lots of reasons though
[08:42] <tristanbob> mdke: entering text is easy, but tables, formating text, is quite non-intuitive until you read the docs
[08:43] <tristanbob> mdke: entering text is easy, but tables, formatting text, is quite non-intuitive until you read the docs
[08:47] <mdke> tables can be tricky yes, but those are rarely used for documentation
[08:47] <mdke> not to the extent that is prohibitive for contribution anyway
[09:20] <mdke> wow, there has been an excellent response to the mentoring announcement
[09:27] <Admiral_Chicago> seriously.
[09:38] <fijam> my mailbox is stuffed.
[09:39] <jjesse> that's a good problem to have :)
[09:39] <jjesse> we need to track these and get people working now
[09:46] <mdke> yes, we're in danger of losing track already. Let's do a table
[09:49] <LaserJock> hola DocuMENTORS!!
[09:50] <mdke> Admiral_Chicago: is it kubuntu or xubuntu you are interested in again?
[09:50] <mdke> hiya LaserJock
[09:50] <jjesse> cool
[09:50] <jjesse> Admiral_Chicago: does Xubuntu work
[09:50] <Admiral_Chicago> mdke: both. my focus is xubuntu but I know Kubuntu a lot better and would help there as well
[09:50] <mdke> thanks
[09:51] <Admiral_Chicago> jjesse: yes it works.
[09:52] <jjesse> Admiral_Chicago: meant that Admiral_Chicag works on Xubuntu
[09:52] <LaserJock> so have we defined what it means to me a mentor?
[09:52] <LaserJock> like what is expected
[09:53] <Admiral_Chicago> jjesse: well jim and I have been meeting and learning docbook and making patches
[09:53] <Admiral_Chicago> we have a roadmap for when we want things done, its been tough though
[09:53] <jjesse> my statement was in response to mdke
[09:53] <Admiral_Chicago> oh I see. :)
[09:54] <mdke> LaserJock: it really means just to give a commitment to give advice on the mailing list for your "student" and to prioritise reviewing patches
[09:54] <LaserJock> ok
[09:54] <LaserJock> I'll sign up for the packaging guide and Edubuntu
[09:55] <mdke> obviously, other people can still reply and review patches too if they wish
[09:55] <LaserJock> although I'd *like* to have more help with Edubuntu
[09:55] <Admiral_Chicago> hehe
[10:02] <Admiral_Chicago> I'm glad we have so many people responding, the hard part will be getting them workin and sticking around
[10:02] <jjesse> !nixternal
[10:02] <ubotu> Oh no!  The pointy-clicky Vista lover has arrived!  He's rumoured to be giving out free money, too!
[10:04] <LaserJock> yes, we need to go from "Yippee! give me something to do!" to "I'm working on this specific doc/topic/bug"
[10:04] <DarkRaven> hiya....which package needs attention, keeping in mind that I need to be mentored....I have downloaded the ubuntu-docs repo...?
[10:05] <mdke> that's right
[10:05] <mdke> phil has done a pretty good job of assigning some bugs already, I've added a table on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Mentoring to keep focused on who is doing what
[10:05] <LaserJock> we do need to have a list of "bite-sized" task for people to look at
[10:06] <LaserJock> mdke: yes, I'm guessing bugs might be a helpful thing here
[10:06] <mdke> DarkRaven: the best idea would be to have a look at the documentation and find something you are interested in. Alternatively, have a look through our list of bugs or tasks (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Tasks)
[10:06] <mdke> LaserJock: we have that list (see above link)
[10:06] <DarkRaven> shot mdke....I'll have a look....
[10:06] <mdke> shot?
[10:06] <DarkRaven> thanks...
[10:07] <mdke> ah, I thought I smelled a cricketing term
[10:07] <LaserJock> mdke: yes, I was very happy to see that
[10:07] <DarkRaven> my apologies...a term used here....
[11:23] <bdmurray> Does the doc team work on documentation for the development release only?
[11:26] <Admiral_Chicago> bdmurray: what do you mean?
[11:27] <bdmurray> I mean there is going to be an update for Dapper and maybe it could ship with updated documentation.
[11:44] <bdmurray> But I am not sure if much is going to change.
[11:45] <fijam> as for stable releases, updates are generally security updates, so there's not much to change in the docs.
[11:46] <nixternal> yup
[11:46] <bdmurray> It is a point release though
[11:46] <mdke> we've already pushed updates to dapper in the past
[11:46] <mdke> same principles apply as do to other packages
[11:46] <mdke> the material is in branch/releasename in our svn repository
[11:48] <nixternal> how do you get an SRU approved with Docs if they aren't security related?
[11:48] <nixternal> unless you are backporting them?
[11:49] <bdmurray> I thought there was an exception made for the documentation.
[11:49] <bdmurray> Meaning that it doesn't need to go through exactly the same procedure.
[11:50] <nixternal> I don't know..tis why I was asking
[11:50] <dsas> it was mentioned on the list a few months ago...
[11:51] <mdke> nixternal: it's not easy to get sru approval but can be done for serious bugs
[11:51] <nixternal> speaking of lists, where is Burger when you need him?
[11:51] <mdke> at the moment we don't have a different policy for documentation, although it's been discussed
[11:51] <nixternal> mdke: rock on then...I wonder how much stuff has changed that a point release is necessary for docs?
[11:52] <bdmurray> FWIW, I agree with this; if you have updates which should really go
[11:52] <bdmurray> in, the procedure shouldn't block you from doing that.
[11:52] <nixternal> I can't even remember Dapper :)
[11:52] <mdke> nixternal: I can't think of anything off-hand, but we can fix bugs if other people can :)
[11:52] <bdmurray> ^- That is what Tollef the Release Manager said.
[11:52] <nixternal> woohoo!
[11:52] <nixternal> now that is what I wanted to do during the Dapper days, and you used to get mad at me for changing strings :)
[11:52] <nixternal> muhehehe!
[11:52] <nixternal> svn revert was my best friend back then
[11:52] <mdke> but they need to be serious, because it's not worth it otherwise
[11:53] <nixternal> ya
[11:53] <bdmurray> I think if it is a string that could cause more bug reports it is worth changing.
[11:53] <nixternal> and i can't think of any that are serious in Kubuntu off-hand w/o going through the old bug logs
[11:53] <mdke> we don't have much contribution, and rolling packages for a sru is quite a large effort
[11:53] <mdke> --> bed
[11:53] <nixternal> g'nite homeskillet!
[11:53] <nixternal> ;)
[11:54] <mdke> --> dictionary
[11:54] <nixternal> hahaha
[11:54] <bdmurray> nixternal: did you know there are vmware images available for dapper?
[11:54] <nixternal> if you find it, I would drop dead right here
[11:54] <nixternal> bdmurray: and breezy, and hoary, and even debian potato :)
[11:54] <nixternal> I was just looking at all of the vmware images on the vmware site...it was rather interesting to say the least
[11:54] <mdke> hmm. Skillet - a cylindrical serving vessel of the late 17th and early 18th centuries, having a hinged lid, a handle, and, sometimes, feet.
[11:55] <nixternal> hahahah
[11:55] <nixternal> do you have feet?
[11:55] <nixternal> homeskillet was Larry the Cable Guy trying to be a gangster I think
[11:55] <mdke> aha, http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=homeskillet
[11:55] <mdke> i'll take it as a compliment then
[11:55] <nixternal> hahahahah
[11:55] <mdke> --> bed
[11:55] <nixternal> omg
[11:55] <nixternal> g'nite
[11:56] <j1mc> "Tell homeskillet to fire up the bar-b-q, I'll be home in a minute.