[12:20] <LaserJock> mdke: do you know if there has been any progress on the wiki.ubuntu.com licensing?
[12:26] <nixternal> LaserJock: we are going to license it under the GPLv3
[12:26] <robotgeek> !topic
[12:26] <ubotu> Please read the channel topic whenever you enter, as it contains important information. To view it at any time after joining, simply type /topic
[12:26] <nixternal> now go back into hibernation! :)
[12:26] <LaserJock> nixternal: are you serious!?!
[12:26] <nixternal> no
[12:26] <LaserJock> phew
[12:26] <robotgeek> lol
[12:26] <nixternal> figured you would have caught that one :)
[12:26] <LaserJock> I was about to freak
[12:26] <nixternal> phew? are you out of your mind!
[12:26] <nixternal> haha
[12:27] <nixternal> GPL > CC-by-garbage any day of the week!
[12:27] <LaserJock> sure, expect no docs that I'm aware of use GPLV3 yet
[12:27] <LaserJock> *except
[12:27] <crimsun> bad, public dom it.
[12:27] <nixternal> that CC stuff has gotten out of hand...there is like CC-by-A-B-C-D-E-F...
[12:27] <robotgeek> is there a list of tasks pending for Kubuntu ?
[12:27] <crimsun> I'll be sure to license all help for alsa under gplv3
[12:27] <LaserJock> nixternal: bah, there is not, it's really simple
[12:27] <nixternal> robotgeek: not really, just work on whatever you feel like
[12:28] <nixternal> crimsun: you rock!
[12:28] <LaserJock> crimsun: docs *we* would use ;-)
[12:28] <nixternal> ouch
[12:28] <robotgeek> nixternal: just wanted to make sure that i did not duplicate work
[12:28] <crimsun> that's true.  That's why I left Ubuntu anyhow.
[12:28] <nixternal> that was a low blow
[12:28] <nixternal> robotgeek: nah, we are flying by the seat of our pants as usual
[12:28] <LaserJock> nixternal: who in the doc team is going to use alsa docs?
[12:28] <nixternal> jjesse is working on the add-applications stuff, and I am working on the index, other than that, everything else is open
[12:29] <jjesse> correct
[12:29] <LaserJock> crimsun: cause nobody looks after alsa?
[12:29] <nixternal> jjesse: you see the new index btw?
[12:29] <jjesse> not yet
[12:29] <crimsun> no, because I don't have a pink pony.
[12:29] <nixternal> crimsun: can I join you in leaving too? maybe we can meet up on Debian Lane :)
[12:29] <robotgeek> when is string freeze?
[12:29] <nixternal> 2 months
[12:29] <nixternal> less than 2 months
[12:29] <crimsun> GutsyReleaseSchedule
[12:29] <LaserJock> crimsun: but you've got 2 Golden ones I think :-)
[12:29] <robotgeek> crimsun: ty!
[12:32] <LaserJock> I'm concerned about the wiki licensing because of the packaging guide
[12:32] <nixternal> ooh, didn't even think about that
[12:32] <LaserJock> with the new doc effort going on in MOTU, there's lots of good material
[12:33] <nixternal> LaserJock: isn't the PG dual licensed?
[12:33] <LaserJock> no
[12:33] <LaserJock> just GPL
[12:33] <nixternal> oh, I thought it was
[12:33] <nixternal> dual license the PG for the time being until the wiki license gets straightened out
[12:33] <LaserJock> I can't exactly
[12:34] <LaserJock> well, I'm not sure if I can
[12:34] <nixternal> you can if you get the contributors say so on it
[12:34] <LaserJock> I have an amount of Debian docs in there
[12:34] <nixternal> oh ya
[12:34] <LaserJock> I'm not sure if it would count as fair use or not
[12:34] <nixternal> hrmm, well don't they allow double licensing?
[12:34] <LaserJock> I use Debian Policy
[12:34] <nixternal> ya
[12:34] <nixternal> I don't blame you :)
[12:34] <crimsun> err, actual Debian docs or references to Debian docs?
[12:34] <LaserJock> actual Debian Policy material
[12:35] <LaserJock> well, or at least close enough
[12:35] <crimsun> werbatim?
[12:35] <crimsun> verbatim , even
[12:35] <LaserJock> well, I'd have to go back and look
[12:35] <LaserJock> it's not exactly verbatim I don't think
[12:35] <crimsun> if it's not verbatim,then at the very least you can further parphrase and provide an in-place URL
[12:35] <crimsun> paraphrase
[12:36] <LaserJock> Maybe what should be done is to quote the Debian Policy where needed
[12:36] <LaserJock> then it's just a reference, not a derivative work, right?
[12:36] <crimsun> right, what I said.
[12:36] <LaserJock> right
[12:36] <nixternal> how difficult would it be to dual license the Kubuntu docs? we change stuff from KDE, and I need to pull some KDE documentation and integrate it with Kubuntu documentation..for KDE we use GFDL
[12:36] <nixternal> this dual licensing stuff is nuts
[12:37] <LaserJock> I don't think you can just dual license stuff
[12:37] <nixternal> ya...we had it dual licensed once
[12:37] <LaserJock> if it's a derivative work then you have to ask KDE if its ok
[12:37] <LaserJock> because you are in essence relicensing their work
[12:38] <nixternal> true
[12:38] <nixternal> unless we do like crimsun said and paraphrase..will that work?
[12:38] <LaserJock> well, this is something *I'm* not clear on at all
[12:38] <LaserJock> what constitutes a derivative work?
[12:39] <LaserJock> I assume that if you quote or fall under "fair use" a link works without it being a derivative work
[12:42] <nixternal> what was the main reason for switching to CC-by-SA for our docs?
[12:42] <nixternal> was it for the book?
[12:42] <LaserJock> no
[12:42] <LaserJock> well, I'm sure that's part of it
[12:42] <LaserJock> you mean switching from GFDL/CC-by-SA to just CC-by-SA?
[12:43] <nixternal> ya, that sucks for Kubuntu seeing we only have 1 chapter in the book
[12:43] <nixternal> yes
[12:43] <LaserJock> it's basically, IMO, because dual licensing sucks for getting material
[12:43] <LaserJock> the forums are CC-by-SA
[12:43] <LaserJock> the book is
[12:44] <nixternal> help.ubuntu.com/community is as well
[12:44] <LaserJock> yes
[12:44] <LaserJock> the problem with the dual licensing was basically that we weren't compatible with anybody
[12:44] <nixternal> ya, I now understand that after thinking a whole 2 seconds about it
[12:45] <LaserJock> doc licensing really stinks, especially as I haven't seen a clear "leader" like GPL is for software
[12:46] <nixternal> well GFDL is clear, but people made a stink about invariant sections
[12:46] <nixternal> you shouldn't have invariant sections in documentation honestly
[12:46] <LaserJock> why not?
[12:46] <LaserJock> it makes perfect sense to me
[12:47] <nixternal> having stuff that says something like "I think or I believe that Gnome shouldn't or should...."
[12:47] <nixternal> that makes a section invariant correct?
[12:47] <nixternal> you shouldn't have opinions in official/system documentation
[12:47] <LaserJock> no
[12:48] <LaserJock> an invariant section can *only* be in secondary matter
[12:48] <nixternal> i.e. the index?
[12:48] <LaserJock> yes
[12:48] <LaserJock> basically it is for the license of the doc
[12:48] <LaserJock> as you shouldn't be able to change the license right?
[12:49] <nixternal> well I read it as the "opinions" of the author or what not when going through the Debian review of the GFDL
[12:50] <LaserJock> no, I actually read the GFDL
[12:50] <nixternal> I have too, and I will be honest, I was confused a bit by the invariant section part
[12:51] <LaserJock> "The "Invariant Sections" are certain Secondary Sections whose titles are designated"
[12:51] <LaserJock> so it has to be a secondary section
[12:52] <LaserJock> ""Secondary Section" is a named appendix or a front-matter section of the Document"
[12:52] <nixternal> hrmm..what happens if you don't add an "invariant section"?
[12:52] <nixternal> does it then make it free in Debian's eyes?
[12:52] <LaserJock> yes
[12:53] <LaserJock> but RMS likes to make the License section of a doc Invariant
[12:53] <LaserJock> so like Debian took out all the emacs documentation and put it in non-free
[12:54] <nixternal> I was told by Peter Brown this is supposed to change for GFDLv3..how true that is I don't know
[12:54] <LaserJock> well, I understand Debian's position, I just think it's kinda stupid
[12:56] <nixternal> ditto
[12:57] <LaserJock> I thought you could make anything invariant, and that did sound pretty bad
[12:57] <nixternal> actually, I did to
[12:58] <LaserJock> but if you read the details of what a secondary section is it's pretty restriced
[12:58] <nixternal> the Attribution condition for the CC-by-SA is what Debian doesn't view as free right?
[12:58] <LaserJock> hmm, I'm not really sure
[12:58] <LaserJock> I think it's mainly some wording
[12:58] <LaserJock> not really the concept
[01:20] <nixternal> I GET IT NOW
[01:21] <LaserJock> oh?
[01:21] <nixternal> dual licensing doesn't help you with using others work, it only helps downstream in a way...so whoever takes my work, can choose which license they wish to use
[01:21] <LaserJock> exactly
[01:21] <nixternal> OK, now it makes better sense now
[01:21] <nixternal> exactly? why couldn't you stop me from looking like an idiot sooner? :)
[01:21] <LaserJock> so I think initially it was "we'll be nice and let other people do what they want with the Ubuntu docs, like derivs"
[01:22] <nixternal> ya
[01:22] <nixternal> which I think is kind of nice
[01:22] <LaserJock> but now it's like "oh, we'd like to pull material from X and Y, oh darn, our license doesn't work well for that"
[01:23] <nixternal> see, for Kubuntu docs, our main source of course (Dr. Seuss) is KDE which is GFDL
[01:23] <nixternal> so in all honestly, it is kind of silly for us to use CC-by-SA...it would be nice to dual license the wiki truthfully
[01:24] <nixternal> there is quite a bit of documentation on h.u.c/community that was pulled from GPL/GFDL sources
[01:24] <nixternal> hehe, Reno 911 movie is nuts
[01:25] <nixternal> you wanna see a great movie, Hot Fuzz...great British humor in it
[01:25] <LaserJock> heh
[01:34] <nixternal> Hello nixternal,
[01:34] <nixternal> We at Ubuntu Forums would like to wish you a happy birthday today!
[01:34] <nixternal> heh, it must be midnight where ever that server is
[01:35] <nixternal> I had forgotten about that
[01:37] <LaserJock> it's your BIRTHDAY?
[01:38] <nixternal> tomorrow for us
[01:39] <LaserJock> wow, you must be ancient by now ;-)
[01:39] <nixternal> 17
[01:41] <nixternal> lol
[01:45] <crimsun> yous guys are fogeys.
[01:46] <nixternal> hah
[01:49] <LaserJock> crimsun: you're still older than me
[01:49] <LaserJock> and I'm still the youngest person in my lab, except for the summer undergrad guy
[01:50] <LaserJock> but I feel ancient :/
[01:50] <crimsun> I'm younger than nixternal.
[01:50] <crimsun> somewhere between 10 and 16.
[01:51] <nixternal> heh
[01:55] <LaserJock> and they let you work in D.C.?
[01:56] <LaserJock> surely they have child-labor laws
[01:56] <crimsun> I _write_ the child labour laws.  I'm obviously exempt.
[01:56] <LaserJock> ahhhh
[01:58] <LaserJock> crimsun: so are you going to have any time for Debian/other FLOSS even?
[02:01] <crimsun> I guess that depends how badly I want to drive myself to an early grave.
[02:02] <LaserJock> understandable
[02:03] <crimsun> unlike you fogeys, I have to get rest to grow strong, healthy bones.
[02:03] <nixternal> haha
[02:04] <LaserJock> crimsun: oh geeze, you seem to sleep the least of any person I know
[02:04] <LaserJock> I've got to get 8hrs/day
[03:18] <LaserJock> hi jjesse
[01:31] <ubotu> New bug: #129032 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Switching guide only covers Internet Explorer favorites" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/129032
[02:19] <mdke> ok, surely the largest commit ever
[02:19] <mdke> let's see how long it takes
[02:25] <mdke> no, disappointingly fast
[02:29] <fijam> hello
[02:29] <fijam> where do I find &legalnotice?
[02:35] <mdke> fijam: trunk/libs/cdo-C.ent
[02:35] <fijam> thanks.
[02:59] <topaspv> hi! a short question: how can i include a link to a picture without having the picture itself included in the wiki page?
[03:07] <mdke> topaspv: I'm not sure there is a good way to do it (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpOnActions/AttachFile). You'll probably have to use the "get" link which you see under the attachments page
[03:08] <topaspv> ok, i'll have a try
[03:17] <topaspv> no difference.
[03:23] <mdke> hmm?
[03:23] <mdke> topaspv: what's the page, and where is your link?
[03:23] <topaspv> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SimplyStunningLinuxDesktop
[03:24] <mdke> you tried [link text] ?
[03:24] <topaspv> no
[03:24] <topaspv> i'll do
[03:24] <mdke> ok
[03:25] <topaspv> no, doesn't make a difference
[03:27] <mdke> lemme try
[03:27] <mdke> topaspv: can you come out of the page?
[03:28] <topaspv> out of the page?
[03:28] <mdke> stop editing
[03:28] <topaspv> done
[03:28] <mdke> no, you still have a lock on it
[03:28] <mdke> save or cancel
[03:29] <topaspv> done
[03:30] <mdke> topaspv: ok, it works now. have a look at the format used
[03:30] <topaspv> looks pretty simple
[03:30] <topaspv> thanks :)
[03:31] <topaspv> i'm gonna ask myself why i didn't have this idea myself..
[03:31] <mdke> np
[03:32] <topaspv> bye
[06:03] <jjesse> wow i'm aamazed at how active the mailing list has become
[06:03] <jjesse> that's awesome
[10:29] <techII> ok, does some type of self help "wizard" exist?
[11:27] <mpt> techII, M-x doctor?
[11:27] <mpt> or perhaps you could be more specific?