[12:33] <Burgundavia> here is something ironic: CIO recommends SUSE for thin clietns over ubuntu
[12:33] <Burgundavia> http://www.cio.com/article/print/126702
[12:35] <LaserJock> oh Burgundavia, you're here
[12:35] <Burgundavia> hey LaserJock
[12:35] <LaserJock> your former colleagues are bugging me today ;-)
[12:36] <Burgundavia> heh
[12:36] <Burgundavia> what about?
[12:36] <LaserJock> the usual
[12:36] <LaserJock> Desktop Multiplier should be updated
[12:39] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: they're still trying to get it into Feisty
[12:44] <Burgundavia> right, have you emailed them the SRU documentation?
[12:45] <LaserJock> no, I just gave an explanation an pointed out the release schedule
[12:52] <Burgundavia> given the binary nature of d-m, I would say an SRU is acceptable
[12:56] <LaserJock> yeah, but we don't do new upstream releases in -updates
[01:01] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: what about flashplayer?
[01:02] <LaserJock> hmm, you're right
[01:03] <Burgundavia> this is pretty much purely binary crap
[01:04] <LaserJock> I'm not sure if I can get away with an SRU (no data loss bug, etc.) but at least there is precedent there
[01:06] <Burgundavia> I don't honestly trust Jason, so meh
[01:06] <Burgundavia> remember, I have seen Userful's "QA" policies
[01:10] <LaserJock> heh
[01:10] <LaserJock> he's going to test his new package on Gutsy and get back to me
[01:10] <LaserJock> so I'm off the hook for a little bit
[01:36] <moquist> Burgundavia: Yeah, that is ironic. I'm not sure how he could recommend SUSE for TCs unless he's ignorant of the entire direction of the LTSP.
[01:37] <Burgundavia> moquist: likely he doesn't know about it
[01:45] <moquist> I thougt the comparison of SUSE-Windows and Ubuntu-Mac was interesting.
[01:45] <moquist> It may explain part of why I can't stand SUSE.
[03:41] <sbalneav> Well.  Multi host to do now.
[03:41] <sbalneav> Man, been a busy couple of days.
[06:48] <johanisrembet> Hari ini saya telah terima. Terima kasih atas kiriman 6 cd ubuntu.
[03:15] <encompass> howdy all... working on my GSoC project PyStart and hope you guys can help... I am looking for the deb package that would have this in it... I need this module to safely run students code inside of pystart.
[03:15] <encompass> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/RestrictedPython/3.4.2#print
[03:23] <cliebow> ogra is around here somewhere....
[03:23] <encompass> does he know this kinda stuff?
[03:24] <encompass> I jsut found out it is part of the Zope system if it gives any hints
[03:24] <ogra> thats in zope3
[03:24] <encompass> bingo
[03:24] <ogra> i dont know this kinda stuff ;)
[03:24] <ogra> but i know where to look
[03:24] <ogra> http://packages.ubuntu.com/cgi-bin/search_contents.pl?word=RestrictedPython&searchmode=searchfilesanddirs&case=insensitive&version=feisty&arch=i386
[03:25] <ogra> intresting that koffice duplicated the code here
[03:26] <encompass> they did... they should have it as a separate package so I can use it :P  I don't see any other way of testing untrusted code then threw this.  But if I just use the egg then it screws up my program going into edubuntu sooner
[03:27] <encompass> ogra: should I make a package of this along with my GSoC project?
[03:27] <ogra> given that schooltool will likely be shipped again this release, we'll have zope aboard in edubuntu
[03:27] <encompass> It would be a pain but my guess the only way
[03:27] <encompass> ok
[03:28] <ogra> talk to doko, he makes such decisions for our python stack
[03:28] <ogra> in case you want a separate package
[03:28] <ogra> hving koffice ship its own *and* a third project using it might justify that
[03:28] <encompass> yeah... otherwise PyStart required zope3 :P
[03:29] <encompass> how best should I talk to doko?
[03:29] <encompass> threw pete?
[03:29] <ogra> either yourself in #ubuntu-devel or through your mentor
[03:30] <ogra> doko is a nice guy he wont eat you ;) just explain the prob
[03:31] <encompass> thanks I will hope over
[06:07] <Eelloe> Goeden avond allen tesamen
[06:09] <Eelloe> can somone help me with a network problem ??
[06:51] <LaserJock> now where did RichEd run off too :-)
[06:55] <jsgotangco> greetings from Bangkok
[06:56] <LaserJock> hi  jerome
[06:57] <jsgotangco> hey jordan, hows it going
[07:02] <LaserJock> man, it's been rough
[07:02] <LaserJock> the laser went down at work
[07:03] <LaserJock> I spent over a week debugging electronics, etc.
[07:08] <jsgotangco> yikes
[07:08] <jsgotangco> ive been living in planes for 2 weeks already!
[07:10] <LaserJock> yeah
[07:16] <bddebian> Heya
[07:39] <SimonAnibal> RichEd, hey there, how are you today?
[07:41] <RichEd> hey SimonAnibal ... struggling with a head cold and fuzzy brain ... courtesy of a 31 hour travel + jet lag + getting home to a snotty wife
[07:41] <RichEd> but alive and kicking
[07:41] <SimonAnibal> Right on, I've been doing a bit of travel lately myself
[07:41] <SimonAnibal> Except I was doing it for vacation
[07:42] <SimonAnibal> Not that it was relaxing because of that, but at least I was inflicting it on myself ;-)
[07:42] <RichEd> :) was just about to ask if the new job was opening up the world to you
[07:42] <SimonAnibal> I'm certainly learning a lot at the new job
[07:42] <RichEd> where did you go ? head down south for a bit?
[07:42] <SimonAnibal> I love it, and I'm exhausted as all getout after work
[07:42] <RichEd> jillc: ping
[07:42] <SimonAnibal> Yeah, I went home to Venezuela for about 3 week
[07:43] <RichEd> SimonAnibal: nice ... me needs to get to South America some time ... may go to brazil in september
[07:43] <SimonAnibal> Well, assuming it's as beautiful as Venezuela ;-) you'll love it
[07:44] <SimonAnibal> Hey, there's a conference going on here that might interest you in October
[07:44] <SimonAnibal> http://www.openmindsconference.org
[07:44] <RichEd> SimonAnibal: I come from a Southern Continent myself ... real nature ... not the tame kind
[07:44] <SimonAnibal> The guy who spearheads the 1:1 access program in the state is putting it up
[07:45] <RichEd> tom hoffman has already probed me about that ... it's being organised by our mutual connection - your and my first interaction mr huffman
[07:45] <SimonAnibal> RichEd, I was planning on going camping about as far from civilization as one can still get with a car, but my dad's car wasn't up to the task, so we postponed that for next year
[07:46] <RichEd> (and he's no relation to felicity i presume)
[07:46] <SimonAnibal> RichEd, nods, he was the keynote speaker at the CINLUG meeting you asked me to attend on Canonical's behalf
[07:46] <SimonAnibal> RichEd, I'm afraid that reference is lost on me
[07:47] <RichEd> SimonAnibal: use the thumb transport :)
[07:47] <RichEd> feilicy huffman is one of the desperate housewives actresses ... married to william h macy
[07:47] <SimonAnibal> I see, Transamerica
[07:47] <SimonAnibal> I never got to see that one
[07:47] <RichEd> yes indeed :)
[07:48] <SimonAnibal> I did see Magnolia...
[07:49] <SimonAnibal> Mike made it a point to get me a card about the conference when he saw my new boss at NECC this year
[07:49] <SimonAnibal> It seems that next year's NECC will be taking place during my honeymoon, so I won't get to go to that one either
[07:50] <SimonAnibal> *shrug* I don't think I'll be worrying too much about it
[07:50] <RichEd> difficult choice ... option 1: surrounded by geeks ... option 2: alone with a new bride .... erm ...
[07:51] <RichEd> mind you ... some of the hacker types I know may chose option 1 :)
[07:51] <SimonAnibal> RichEd, I would never live it down if I did
[07:51] <SimonAnibal> I've already had to push the wedding back a couple of weeks because of my new job
[07:52] <SimonAnibal> RichEd, richly deserved
[07:53] <SimonAnibal> if I had been serious, at least ;-)
[07:54] <LaserJock> I don't know
[07:55] <LaserJock> option 1 can be a lot of fun
[07:56] <RichEd> well if your jockstrap is made of light ... maybe :)
[07:56] <RichEd> but if you are packing ... option 2 is better
[07:56] <LaserJock> I'm ... not even going there
[07:57] <RichEd> SimonAnibal prolly won't invite others along
[07:57] <RichEd> me heads off for some food before he (1) starves or (2) offends someone
[08:01] <SimonAnibal> Ummm, no, not for the honeymoon. We'll be alone (or as alone as possible, at least) on a tropical archipelago resort. I'm not usually one for going "non-native" and getting the fancy treatment, but I figure that if there's one time in life when it's appropriate, it's the honeymoon
[08:04] <nixternal> shhhhhh! you guys are talking to much in here :)
[08:06] <SimonAnibal> sorry
[08:22] <jillc> Hello from Arizona.
[08:22] <LaserJock> hello
[08:22] <LaserJock> from Nevada
[08:23] <bddebian> Hello from Pennsylvania
[08:23] <ogra> hello from germany (even though i'm not officially here until meeting starts :))
[08:23] <LaserJock> ogra: where in Germany?
[08:24] <ogra> kassel
[08:24] <ogra> hess
[08:24] <ogra> ah, no its hesse in english ...
[08:24] <bddebian> heh
[08:25] <LaserJock> I think it's weird how the same place is called different things in different languages
[08:25] <jillc> Hi LaserJock, did you get storms yesterday?
[08:25] <LaserJock> kassel is just as good as hesse to me
[08:25] <ogra> heh
[08:26] <LaserJock> jillc: hmm, no. It doesn't exactly storm too much here. I'm in Reno so probably too far north for you
[08:26] <jillc> probably much cooler too!
[08:26] <ogra> LaserJock, http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=kassel+heinrich-zille+str.+5&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=31.013085,58.886719&ie=UTF8&ll=51.293834,9.46279&spn=0.011942,0.028753&t=k&z=15&om=1
[08:26] <ogra> ;)
[08:27] <LaserJock> jillc: perhaps, it's been 100+ this week
[08:28] <LaserJock> ogra: it looks green
[08:28] <jillc> Yes, 100+ here too.  Day after day
[08:28] <ogra> kind of ...
[08:28] <LaserJock> ogra: mine's not so green, http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=6482+Oneida+Ct,+Sun+Valley,+NV+89433&sll=50.526495,9.004442&sspn=4.358581,8.118896&ie=UTF8&ll=39.610978,-119.7628&spn=0.010315,0.015857&t=k&z=16&iwloc=addr&om=1
[08:29] <ogra> to be honest i didnt really examine the environment yet ... in the one year i live here
[08:29] <LaserJock> lol
[08:29] <ogra> seems like you have a nice view over the edge from that place
[08:29] <LaserJock> hah
[08:29] <LaserJock> view of desert
[08:29] <LaserJock> sand and sagebrush
[08:29] <ogra> yeah
[08:30] <jillc> Beautiful sunsets though, yes?
[08:30] <LaserJock> yes
[08:30] <LaserJock> although not as good as the Montana sunsets I grew up with ;-)
[08:31] <jillc> there are few places that can rival Montana for their sunsets.
[08:31] <LaserJock> amen to that
[08:31] <jillc> when does the meeting start?  do I have time to grab a sandwich?
[08:32] <LaserJock> I think it's at noon
[08:32] <ogra> if you go into #ubuntu-meeting and type: @now it will tell you :)
[08:32] <LaserJock> or maybe 1:00
[08:32] <jillc> okay, I'm off to make a PBJ.
[08:33] <LaserJock> it's at 1:00, UTC 20:00 -7
[08:37] <LaserJock> ogra: how long does it take to drive to Frankfurt from your house?
[08:37] <ogra> about 2h
[08:37] <ogra> hannover is nearer
[08:39] <stgraber> I won't be able to attend the meeting tonight :(
[08:39] <LaserJock> bummer
[09:50] <will_> darn, freenode won't let me use my nick
[09:52] <LaserJock> will_: that's no good, why not?
[09:52] <will_> says "will" is already in use
[09:52] <will_> also seems my nickserv password is not being accepted
[09:53] <RichEd> hey willvdl
[09:54] <LaserJock> meeting in 7min?
[09:54] <LaserJock> or 6 now
[09:54] <RichEd> [09:55] <willvdl> aha, it's me!
[09:55] <RichEd> LaserJock: 5.5 min
[09:55] <LaserJock> willvdl: \o/
[09:55] <RichEd> hey will_
[09:55] <willvdl> hey hey
[09:56] <RichEd> how was the vacation willvdl ?
[09:57] <willvdl> it's still good :)
[09:57] <RichEd> hi mr hoffman
[09:59] <th1a> hi RichEd.
[10:00] <th1a> RichEd: We've got to catch up sometime soon.
[10:01] <th1a> Oh, I'm in the wrong channel for the meeting.
[10:01] <RichEd> th1a: been looking at those dates for k12 open minds ... nothing else cose by that I can piggyback on
[10:01] <RichEd> [10:42] <nixternal> just so you guys know, if there is any kde help you may need, I am available on that part if Riddell is busy or out partying past his bed time
[10:43] <LaserJock> nixternal: I think we need to make sure edubuntu-docs will work for khelpcenter
[10:43] <nixternal> we will have to change <ulink type="ghelp" "whatever.xml"> ro <ulink type="help" url="help:/edubuntu/whatever">
[10:44] <nixternal> ro? s/ro/to
[10:46] <LaserJock> doesn't khelpcenter need HTML?
[10:46] <nixternal> nope, it can do .docbook, but not .xml
[10:46] <LaserJock> heh, so just rename the files
[10:47] <nixternal> yup, but you would still have to change the <ulinks> if you did them with the type="help"
[10:47] <nixternal> I want to .docbook for Kubuntu docs so you don't have to build anything
[10:47] <LaserJock> cool
[10:48] <LaserJock> I don't *think* we have an ghelp links
[10:48] <LaserJock> but we can check
[10:48] <nixternal> but can Yelp do .docbook?
[10:50] <LaserJock> nixternal: I have no idea, doesn't really matter though
[10:51] <LaserJock> I think they have to go to different paths anyway, so we can simlink or copy
[10:59] <RichEd> ---> meeting continuation ... here <---
[10:59] <LaserJock> so, the meeting proposal
[10:59] <highvoltage> hey
[10:59] <RichEd> can I chat about a proposed agenda for splitting the meeting into 2 x 1 hour
[11:00] <RichEd> to see if it makes sense ...
[11:00] <RichEd> The old meeting agenda was:
[11:00] <RichEd> # Technical
[11:00] <RichEd> # Documentation
[11:00] <RichEd> # Art Work
[11:00] <RichEd> # Web Sites
[11:00] <RichEd> # Community
[11:00] <RichEd> # Management & Planning
[11:00] <RichEd> # Any other Matters Arising
[11:00] <RichEd> and that ran over 2 hours
[11:00] <RichEd> and the agenda was quite loose ... so things could drag out a bit
[11:01] <RichEd> so there has been a proposal  bounced around about splitting the meeting into 2
[11:01] <RichEd> #1 technical - 1 hour - led by Oliver
[11:01] <RichEd> #2 community & contributors -  1 hour - led by Richard
[11:02] <pips1> +1
[11:02] <RichEd> so I've played around with splitting the agenda, and giving it more structure ...
[11:02] <RichEd> would this work ... as a starting suggestion:
[11:02] <RichEd> #1 : Edubuntu Technical - Product
[11:02] <RichEd>  1 HOUR led by Oliver
[11:02] <RichEd>  * Development : General
[11:02] <RichEd>  * Development : Activities for the past week
[11:02] <RichEd>  * Current Release Cycle
[11:02] <RichEd>   - next deadline
[11:02] <RichEd>   - what's needed / outstanding
[11:02] <RichEd>   * Coding
[11:02] <RichEd>   * Testing
[11:03] <RichEd>   * Documentation
[11:03] <RichEd>   * Artwork
[11:03] <RichEd>  * Upstream news
[11:03] <ogra_> do you plan a second doc run in the second part `
[11:03] <RichEd> (comment: where we are in the release cycle and next deadline i think would be good to have as a context each time)
[11:03] <ogra_> ?
[11:03] <RichEd> well let me put that up:
[11:04] <RichEd> #2 Edubuntu Community & Contributors
[11:04] <RichEd>  1 HOUR led by Richard
[11:04] <RichEd>  * Edubuntu Members
[11:04] <RichEd>   - new people applying / joining / introducing themselves
[11:04] <RichEd>   - approvals : 1st meeting of every month
[11:04] <RichEd>  * Edubuntu Documentation Team
[11:04] <RichEd>  * Edubuntu Handbook Contributors
[11:04] <RichEd>  * Edubuntu Artwork
[11:04] <RichEd>  * Edubuntu Advocacy
[11:04] <RichEd>  * Websites
[11:04] <RichEd>   - www.edubuntu.org
[11:04] <RichEd>   - wiki.edubuntu.com
[11:04] <RichEd>   - community
[11:04] <RichEd>  * Community General
[11:04] <RichEd>  * Partner Projects
[11:04] <RichEd>  * Upcoming
[11:04] <RichEd>   - Events / Conferences / Expos
[11:04] <RichEd> (comment: so the second part would revolve more around the LP group activities
[11:04] <LaserJock> RichEd: did you get my email about this?
[11:05] <RichEd> LaserJock: what was the subject ... let me check
[11:05] <ogra_> i dont think we should duplicate artwork and doc efforts ...
[11:05] <RichEd> nb ... the above is just a suggestion ... we need to decide as a group
[11:05] <ogra_> i'd put a * Genreal in place so if there are really art or doc issues related to tech we can discuss that there
[11:05] <RichEd> ogra_: the first meeting would revolve around art for deadline ...
[11:06] <LaserJock> RichEd: "Edubuntu meeting notes"
[11:06] <ogra_> but the master part should stay in one hand for both
[11:06] <RichEd> but the 2nd one would be more about the people ... and mentoring ... introducing people into the contributor community
[11:07] <LaserJock> well, I've got a couple comments
[11:07] <RichEd> LaserJock: checking mail now ...
[11:07] <LaserJock> 1) this is too big and it's too rigid. We don't have people for most of that
[11:07] <ogra_> well, i wont have much to talk about in the tech part for docs ... and i see the content management/decisions rather in the second meeting
[11:08] <LaserJock> 2) it seems like the idea was to divide technical from non-technical but it looks more like Canonical vs non-Canonical, which is not a good message
[11:08] <RichEd> LaserJock: that was not at all my intention ... it did not even occur to me
[11:09] <ogra_> to me neither, but now i know why i didnt like art and docs in the dev part :)
[11:09] <LaserJock> of course,  I know you don't intend that
[11:09] <RichEd> LaserJock: just scanned your mail ... we are on the same wavelength :)
[11:09] <LaserJock> my suggestion, briefly, was the following:
[11:10] <ogra_> "#1 : Edubuntu Technical - Product" is the title :) we should soften that a bit
[11:10] <RichEd> perhaps a simple summary of the split i proposed above is almost:
[11:10] <RichEd> #1 work to deadline
[11:10] <ogra_> make that just "edubuntu development"
[11:10] <RichEd> #2 life outside the deadline and how to get involved
[11:10] <LaserJock> 1) ogra's section be shortish 30min maybe with Development Team style reports from Edubuntu devs
[11:11] <RichEd> ogra_: a thought just occured to me:
[11:11] <RichEd> #1 edubuntu-devel
[11:11] <ogra_> LaserJock, sounds good
[11:11] <RichEd> #2 edubuntu-usersd
[11:11] <RichEd> #2 edubuntu-users
[11:11] <ogra_> right
[11:11] <LaserJock> yes, that's better
[11:11] <ogra_> LaserJock, well, thats usually what i do ...
[11:12] <ogra_> so beyond the fact that there are not many devs its similar to a distro team meeting :)
[11:12] <RichEd> ogra_: the reason I see that we need art / docs potentially in part 1 is to note what is needed for deadlines
[11:12] <RichEd> those actiond can carry over into part 2 for people to tackle
[11:12] <LaserJock> ogra_: well, perhaps we need to more formally do that though, beyond just you
[11:12] <RichEd> same for docs
[11:13] <ogra_> RichEd, right, i think if we face art or doc deadlines it makes sense for devs having docs to contribute to attend the second meeting
[11:13] <LaserJock> yes, part one should be status reports from the devels/leads
[11:13] <ogra_> LaserJock, so that would be you and me then ? :)
[11:13] <LaserJock> mostly to start with
[11:13] <RichEd> ogra_: indeed ... but in part 1 the "project manager"  brings the action items to the table with status
[11:13] <LaserJock> but also an art lead
[11:13] <ogra_> sbalneav if he attends
[11:14] <LaserJock> and if we get some more MOTUs them too
[11:14] <ogra_> right
[11:14] <LaserJock> anybody working on a spec, etc.
[11:14] <RichEd> so that we help take the pressure off ogra and have less stuff rattling around in his head
[11:14] <LaserJock> what happens now is we start of with status reports and end in a free-for-all
[11:14] <ogra_> RichEd, my had isnt the worrying part of my body :)
[11:15] <jillc> I'm glad to know that other people's heads rattle too
[11:15] <LaserJock> I think if we tie the first part to edubuntu-devel discussions
[11:15] <LaserJock> so we don't have to use the meeting for all tech discussions
[11:16] <RichEd> LaserJock: explan that in a few more words
[11:16] <LaserJock> well
[11:16] <LaserJock> when I get to the meeting I feel like I gotta get everything talked about
[11:16] <LaserJock> because this is the one time in the week when everybody is around
[11:16] <pips1> ogra: LOL
[11:16] <LaserJock> but really when a topic needs a good discussion it should be moved to the mailing list
[11:17] <LaserJock> if it can be worked out in a couple minutes fine
[11:17] <RichEd> LaserJock: agreed ... but do you think there should be some crossover between the meeting and the mail list
[11:17] <LaserJock> but I think the tech part would be good to be mostly a : this is what I did this week, this is what I'm doing next week, and this is problems I'm having
[11:18] <RichEd> like would it make sense to discuss some of the mail list posts (solutions / unsolved issues) in the meeting
[11:18] <LaserJock> and if the "problems I'm having" is non-trivial it should go to the mailing list
[11:18] <LaserJock> well, I would imagine it would go from IRC -> mailing list not the other way around, but it could
[11:19] <LaserJock> but I think we can handle the tech part in probably 15 min normally
[11:19] <RichEd> ^ LaserJock : agreed what I did, and doing etc. but i also think a quick recap of the current place in the 6 month dev cycle would help a lot
[11:19] <LaserJock> yes
[11:19] <RichEd> here is a paste of the significant stages in the cycle:
[11:19] <pips1> I agree too
[11:20] <LaserJock> my point was that if we are effectively using the mailing list we don't need to use the meeting as a troubleshooting session
[11:20] <RichEd> * Toolchain Uploaded
[11:20] <RichEd> * Development Summit
[11:20] <RichEd> * Specifications must be finalized, translations exported from LP
[11:20] <RichEd> * Tribe CD 1
[11:20] <RichEd> * DebianImportFreeze
[11:20] <RichEd> * Remaining upstream merges completed, Rebuild Test
[11:20] <RichEd> * Tribe CD 2
[11:20] <RichEd> * Server Team Sprint (Mon-Fri)
[11:20] <RichEd> * Developer Sprint (Mon-Fri)
[11:20] <RichEd> * Tribe CD 3
[11:20] <RichEd> * Tribe CD 4
[11:20] <RichEd> * FeatureFreeze, /!\ UpstreamVersionFreeze , /!\ ArtworkDeadlineOne, /!\ UVF Universe
[11:20] <RichEd> * Rebuild Test, Upgrade Testing begins
[11:20] <RichEd> * ArtworkDeadlineTwo, /!\ NewPackagesFreezeUniverse
[11:20] <RichEd> * Tribe CD 6
[11:20] <RichEd> * StringFreeze
[11:20] <RichEd> * BetaFreeze, /!\ GutsyArtworkFinalDeadline
[11:20] <RichEd> * Rebuild Test
[11:20] <RichEd> * BetaRelease
[11:20] <RichEd> * NonLanguagePackTranslationDeadline, /!\ KernelFreeze
[11:20] <RichEd> * Rebuild Test
[11:20] <RichEd> * ReleaseCandidate, /!\ LanguagePackTranslationDeadline
[11:21] <RichEd> * FinalRelease
[11:21] <RichEd> * Development Summit
[11:21] <RichEd> ---
[11:21] <LaserJock> it should just be status reports and making sure everything is on track
[11:21] <RichEd> so i think a few words from ogra each week about what has passed and what is next would help (1) the process and deadlines and (2) the understanding of a lot of people
[11:21] <ogra_> agreed
[11:21] <RichEd> so that they understand the cycle
[11:21] <RichEd> and the language
[11:21] <RichEd> ogra_: agreed with me ? or LaserJock or both
[11:22] <ogra_> with you in any case
[11:22] <pips1> hehe
[11:22] <LaserJock> ok, so, status reports from devs/team leads and then "upcoming deadlines"
[11:22] <RichEd> i'd be in favour of a weekly status ... report and update
[11:22] <ogra_> i'm not sure about the part of the weekly reports, since thats means to me to do it twice
[11:22] <LaserJock> ogra_: well, it'll be mostly trivial
[11:22] <RichEd> so that we have the same weekly template, with a few items updated
[11:22] <ogra_> (i am attending the distro team meetings a swell)
[11:22] <LaserJock> ogra_: I'm not thinking as formal as the Devel Meetings
[11:23] <RichEd> ogra_: i'd hope that you can tell us in IRC and someone else do the updates
[11:23] <ogra_> LaserJock, right
[11:23] <LaserJock> what you are doing now mostly
[11:23] <ogra_> RichEd, well, i have to mail in my weekly reports anyway... but i'm quite happy thats on an optional base for me atm ...
[11:23] <RichEd> it wouldf even be better if we had someone else walk you through the items each week, to make sure all things are convered, and updated
[11:24] <ogra_> a secretary :)
[11:24] <RichEd>  <snap> like a secretary ...
[11:24] <RichEd> :)
[11:24] <RichEd> then minutes become easier to take and publish and more effective
[11:24] <LaserJock> ok, so is everybody on the same page for the first part?
[11:24] <ogra_> yep
[11:24] <RichEd> instead of a list of the meeting conversation in all it's glory
[11:25] <RichEd> LaserJock: seems to me ... yes
[11:25] <pips1> LaserJock: I agree that we should try to keep the meeting time down to a necessary minimum, and I think the status updates will insure that, but I also see that sometimes, it happens that some developers that do volunteer work might attend a meeting "without warning" and they then need to discuss a certain thing they are working on, and that technical discussion might take up anywhere from 10-30 mins...
[11:25] <ogra_> pips1, thats why we have 1h for that :)
[11:26] <RichEd> i'm happy to make a wiki page with the proposede agenda (as per these discussions) down for editing / comments, agreement next week
[11:26] <ogra_> if we ever find we need more we can do that
[11:26] <RichEd> and i'll try to create a weekly status template
[11:26] <RichEd> i'll also act as the secretary for a week or three to get the minutes going
[11:27] <ogra> :(
[11:27] <LaserJock> pips1: I think that's what the mailing list is for
[11:27] <RichEd> ogra: what size are you ?
[11:27] <ogra> o_O
[11:28] <jillc> I need to run.  It was nice meeting all of you.  I've enjoyed it. You guys are funny.
[11:28] <ogra> ciao jillc, thanks for dropping by :)
[11:28] <RichEd> thanks jillc
[11:28] <LaserJock> jillc: yes, nice to meet you. Thanks for stepping up to help with art
[11:28] <RichEd> chat to you in email soon
[11:28] <RichEd> LaserJock: so for part two ... i think we are in agreement as well ... on intention
[11:29] <LaserJock> part two should be user oriented
[11:29] <RichEd> my thought was to based the meetings around the lp groups ...
[11:29] <LaserJock> trying to get feedback, "How do I get involved?" etc.
[11:29] <LaserJock> I suggested in my email that we might do a Top 5 user complaints
[11:30] <RichEd> LaserJock: yep ... we're i'n agreement ... and the getting involved should be based around a group
[11:30] <LaserJock> kinda
[11:30] <LaserJock> my concern is that we don't really have very strong groups
[11:30] <RichEd> with tasks listed, and people to mentor / assist etc.
[11:30] <LaserJock> so we need to build that first
[11:30] <RichEd> and conversely, if we have a group in LP with 20 members, and none of them ever attends a meeting, how does that help ?
[11:31] <pips1> LaserJock: yes, ideally, i agree. but I think there is a "soft" problem with the mailing list... people are more aware that a mailing post reaches a larger audience, so I suspect they hesitate to write about something that is not a bit thought out... but development discussions sometimes are also "informal" and "half baked", so people are more confortable with IRC for that...
[11:31] <RichEd> and perhaps we also need a LP group to match the mail list ... edubuntu-users
[11:32] <LaserJock> pips1: kinda, but a meeting is not the place for it either ;-)
[11:32] <LaserJock> I think we have to many LP groups anyway
[11:32] <ogra> ++
[11:32] <LaserJock> forget the groups/teams
[11:32] <LaserJock> lets focus on people first
[11:32] <RichEd> LaserJock: precisely ... so let's cull the dead wood
[11:33] <RichEd> (LP groups II mean)
[11:33] <LaserJock> once we have enough people then they will naturally for teams
[11:33] <LaserJock> *form
[11:33] <LaserJock> so to start with I think the second part needs to have two elements:
[11:33] <LaserJock> 1) giving users a voice
[11:33] <pips1> Laserjock: ok, agreed. I'm all with you that we should be clear what we want to encourage ("idea process"), reality will always differ slightly :-)
[11:34] <LaserJock> 2) giving people easy things they can do to help out
[11:34] <pips1> *("ideal process")
[11:34] <LaserJock> pips1: sure, there's always some room for that ;-) but the tech section should really take < 30 min
[11:34] <RichEd> LaserJock: i'd say swap the order ... 1) help out discussions ... contributors 2) user voice / discussions
[11:34] <LaserJock> 5-10 for reports and say 20 for tech discussion
[11:35] <LaserJock> well, I don't think the order is really that important
[11:35] <LaserJock> and making a rigid agenda doesn't work all that well
[11:35] <LaserJock> people should be adding agenda items to the wiki
[11:36] <LaserJock> it helps them show up when they are responsible for an item
[11:36] <RichEd> LaserJock: agreed on wiki agenda
[11:36] <LaserJock> you just gotta provide enough reason for them to show up in the first place ;-)
[11:36] <RichEd> but having sections to prompt ideas is good ... even if no items are filed for any particular week
[11:36] <LaserJock> sure
[11:36] <RichEd> how long would you see the meeting(s) ...
[11:37] <LaserJock> I think 1.5 hrs
[11:37] <RichEd> ogra: doesn't tech take up to an hour around testing time ?
[11:37] <ogra> it can, yes
[11:37] <LaserJock> 30 min for tech, 1 hr for non-tech
[11:37] <ogra> but thats special time
[11:37] <RichEd> LaserJock: why not have 2 meetings 1 hour each
[11:37] <RichEd> 1: edubuntu-devel
[11:37] <LaserJock> because that's an aweful lot for people doing both
[11:37] <RichEd> 2\: edubuntu-users
[11:38] <LaserJock> I'd like to see 1 hr for the whole thing tbh
[11:38] <pips1> LaserJock: who would do both besides the people here, ie ogra, RichEd, possibly you?
[11:38] <LaserJock> I think many people would want to show up for both
[11:38] <pips1> hmm
[11:38] <RichEd> So I think we can structure the part 2 in a way that ogra wold be able to leave after 90 mins
[11:38] <LaserJock> maybe people wouldn't talk a lot during the first part
[11:39] <LaserJock> but it's still interesting
[11:39] <LaserJock> but of course all this can be adjusted
[11:39] <RichEd> the last half of part two would be teacher / user / event / project stuff that would not be needed for the tech people
[11:39] <LaserJock> I'd say start with a sane length then adjust if we're either running out of time constantly or spending 1/2 the time twiddling our thumbs
[11:40] <RichEd> and the first half of part one would not be needed for the user people ...
[11:40] <ogra> well, there is overlap ...
[11:40] <LaserJock> I think it's going to be a fight to get people to show up, honestly
[11:40] <LaserJock> I don't see a lot of teachers on IRC
[11:40] <ogra> in the mentioned testing times before release i need users to help testing
[11:40] <RichEd> but if we split the meeting into 2 and aim at each mailing list for announcements and agenda ... I am sure we would get more users
[11:41] <pips1> for me, the problem is that i'm interested in a tech update, but often the tech goes into a long discussion and then general chatter, and I can hang around for that... just because I really want to be there for the last item "community", and then it turns out that the "community" item get's dropped altogether, because nobody is there anymore...
[11:41] <RichEd> ogra: again, the proposal works for that ... the testing requirements are updated with status and deadline in the 1st meeting
[11:41] <RichEd> and community users can pick up tasks in part 2
[11:41] <ogra> which the users dont attend
[11:41] <LaserJock> pips1: yep, that's why I think we need short tech section with moving non-trivial discussions to mailing list
[11:42] <RichEd> ogra: they do not need to understand how you wrote the code they are volunteering to test
[11:42] <pips1> *I can't hang around
[11:42] <ogra> but they want testplans and have questions
[11:43] <LaserJock> well, there's certainly going to be overlap
[11:43] <LaserJock> that's why I don't see this as two separate meetings
[11:43] <ogra> i'm fine to attend the second meeting these times
[11:43] <LaserJock> most people *should* attend both
[11:43] <ogra> but the structure doesnt reflect reality in this case
[11:43] <RichEd> ogra; so we can move that sort of testing stuff to the first half of the second meeting
[11:43] <ogra> right, that would be better
[11:44] <LaserJock> well, the tech discussion should be discussing the tech aspects of the testing, what bugs came up, etc.
[11:44] <RichEd> ogra: under : Edubuntu Testers
[11:44] <LaserJock> the second section should have the "call to test"
[11:45] <LaserJock> which ogra really shouldn't have to do anyway
[11:45] <ogra> LaserJock, it also needs testing plans etc ... i might miss something that a trivial question from a user points out in a discussuion for example ... i dont want to miss out on that
[11:45] <LaserJock> well sure
[11:45] <RichEd> LaserJock: would you see that every person who tests would attend the tech meeting, or do the user level testers have a way of submitting issues
[11:45] <ogra> so i want the dircet contact to the users during this time
[11:46] <LaserJock> argg, ok, just a sec
[11:46] <RichEd> would it make sense to have a person who coordinates testing
[11:46] <RichEd> ?
[11:46] <LaserJock> in the second section we should have a "call for testing" which is go to the testing website, etc.
[11:46] <LaserJock> then users should be also able to report problems
[11:46] <pips1> RichEd, testers are normally people who are already "half way" in-between users/newbies and developers/contributors
[11:47] <ogra> RichEd, stgraber and heno do that already
[11:47] <pips1> RichEd: so I suppose testers will attend both anyway...
[11:47] <ogra> RichEd, testing plans should be outlined in the specs already
[11:47] <LaserJock> hmm, I think we should focus on the topics rather than the people here
[11:47] <ogra> we should see that we have this in gutsy+1
[11:47] <LaserJock> people should come and go whenever
[11:48] <LaserJock> the point is to group like topics to make it easier for people and to keep things to a sane time limit
[11:48] <RichEd> ogra: do the testers fill out a test plan status on the wiki somwhere ... or via email ?
[11:48] <ogra> https://isotesting.stgraber.org/
[11:49] <LaserJock> and considering that we usually have <10 people show up to meetings, I don't think we need to put so much effort into this, tbh
[11:49] <ogra> https://iso.qa.stgraber.org/isotesting/build/Edubuntu is our piece of the pie there
[11:50] <pips1> testers for edubuntu (besides ogra, of course) have been 1-3 people in the past...
[11:50] <pips1> no?
[11:50] <ogra> yep
[11:51] <RichEd> well would we be able to swell those numbers if the process became easier to understand and more accessible ?
[11:51] <RichEd> back to the bite size chunks theory
[11:51] <ogra> i dont think so
[11:51] <LaserJock> not really
[11:51] <LaserJock> the process is already pretty darn easy
[11:51] <pips1> and generally, if somebody decides to do testing for a certain release, they will commit to do their testing seriously, at least during "crunch time"
[11:51] <ogra> you need the will to test ... there are no process changes that can change that
[11:52] <ogra> motivating more people to get more and faster test results would be cool though
[11:52] <ogra> but tat lies in the advertisement realm ... not in the process
[11:53] <pips1> I think people decided to do some testing for a certain release, because they want to deploy that release or some reason, but then they might not do testing for the next release, but perhaps a later one further down the line...
[11:53] <ogra> right
[11:54] <ogra> as LaserJock said, people come and go
[11:55] <RichEd> okay ... getting late and my battery is running down ... can i suggest that we ask LaserJock to do a wiki page with his agenda views ... and i'll add my 2c and so can anyone else ...
[11:55] <pips1> I agree with ogra that it would be cool do have more people to do testing towards the end of the cycle... even just having 5-10 people testing one education app each would be great...
[11:55] <ogra> if he likes to :)
[11:55] <ogra> pips1, yep, but thats neeeds more noise in the wild
[11:55] <RichEd> i'm happy to take the mail laser sent and extract that onto a wiki page
[11:56] <LaserJock> I'll do it, but I expect people to put in their $0.02USD
[11:56] <RichEd> and we can send each agenda to the mailing list(s) for comment
[11:56] <LaserJock> RichEd: I'd rather go from what we've discussed and redo. that email was a little ...scattered ;-)
[11:56] <RichEd> and agree on a loose plan next week ... which we can test for the rest of july
[11:56] <ogra> LaserJock, i'd only have 0.02 .... but thats worth more :)
[11:56] <LaserJock> ogra: I'll take it
[11:56] <ogra> :)
[11:57] <pips1> I think we already have quite a bit of common ground
[11:57] <RichEd> i think mailing an invite to the mail lists got a few more people to attend tonight ... so if we keep up the noise and debate ... hopefully we'll attract more spectators
[11:57] <LaserJock> BLOG
[11:57] <ogra> ++
[11:57] <RichEd> and then we convert the spectators into playas
[11:57] <LaserJock> it's amazing how many people read Planet Ubuntu
[11:57] <LaserJock> and I can probably do some Fridge action as well
[11:58] <cliebow_> tell me..ill be there
[11:58] <ogra> i did that back in breezy and dapper time (mailing announcements) ... somehow it grew over my head
[11:58] <LaserJock> yeah
[11:58] <LaserJock> we just need a secretary for ogra
[11:58] <RichEd> right ... pumpkin' time for me ... 12 bells about to strike ...
[11:58] <ogra> RichEd, EC ?
[11:59] <ogra> we need three memebers to approve ppl
[11:59] <RichEd> anyone here who has applied for edubuntu-members ?
[11:59] <pips1> 1. ca. 30 mins *tight dev status report* plus 15-30 mins "reserve" dev (including testing stuff in testing crunch time) 2. newbie friendly stuff (We should really find a way to tackle the "bite size" idea that LaserJock has been talking about for ages ;-)
[11:59] <ogra> RichEd, seems not ...
[12:00] <ogra> sooo ....
[12:00] <LaserJock> email the people that have email address in LP
[12:00] <ogra> going once
[12:00] <ogra> LaserJock, i thought that happened ....
[12:00] <LaserJock> and reject those that don't with a message that they need to contact us
[12:00] <ogra> going twice
[12:00] <RichEd> ogra: we get a lot of applicants for edubuntu-members via LP ... who we have never met in IRC or email
[12:00] <LaserJock> I didn't know if it did or not, I thought perhaps not?
[12:00] <RichEd> should we better explain somewhere (in LP) what is needed / expected ?
[12:01] <ogra> yes, but we need the CC for that
[12:01] <ogra> EC is owned by CC IIRC :)
[12:01] <ogra> damned, found no acronym for is owned :P
[12:02] <pips1> hehe
[12:02] <pips1> hey highvoltage
[12:02] <ogra> anyway, lets finish this meeting officially now :)
[12:02] <ogra> RichEd, edubuntu members
[12:02] <ogra> which are a part of ubuntu members
[12:03] <ogra> the kubuntu council approves kubuntu members
[12:03] <ogra> which are as well a part of ubuntu members
[12:03] <RichEd> and to recap ... we said that edubuntu (the group) was reduntant
[12:03] <RichEd> ?
[12:03] <ogra> ubuntu members are owned by the CC
[12:03] <ogra> right
[12:03] <RichEd> and i'm happy to close on that note ...
[12:03] <RichEd> goin thrice
[12:03] <RichEd> BOING
[12:04] <RichEd> thanks ...
[12:04] <ogra> \o_
[12:04] <RichEd> LaserJock: i'll mail you a wiki page for the agenda
[12:04] <pips1> RichEd: when can I catch you on IRC in the next days?
[12:04] <RichEd> pips1: i'll be around tomorrow ... if my head-cold goes away tonight ...
[12:05] <RichEd> even if i am in away mode, i
[12:05] <RichEd> 'll check for pings
[12:05] <pips1> ok, I'll try to catch you tomorrow, then. Sleep well!
[12:05] <RichEd> night all
[12:05] <ogra> night
[12:06] <LaserJock> RichEd: ok, thanks