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LDS_TrooperHello. How can I submit artwork for consideration?01:26
troy_sLDS_Trooper: There isn't really a way, but I believe there is a Gutsy page up for wallpapers on the wiki.  Your best bet is to talk with kwwii.01:28
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Do you have a link to your work?01:28
LDS_TrooperTroy not yet.. well nothing I would be submitting01:29
kwwiiLDS_Trooper: sorry, I appear to have missed out on your stuff01:29
kwwiihi troy_s01:29
LDS_Trooperkwwii, not really.. just got here.01:30
troy_sgreets kwwii01:30
kwwiijoined late, spent the day at the museum with my son01:30
LDS_TrooperA friend and I are thinking of submitting work to Ubuntu01:30
LDS_Troopermaybe 4 desktops each01:30
troy_sLDS_Trooper: It is rather hard to have any sort of idea on anything until you have work to show.01:30
kwwiiLDS_Trooper: cool, if you are interested there is quite a bit to do01:30
LDS_Trooperwould love to offer work where needed01:30
kwwiithe best way to get stuff up is to simply post it on the wiki and the mailinglist01:31
LDS_Trooperwhen my buddy gets back online I will have him join the channel01:31
LDS_TrooperI see01:31
LDS_Trooperwhat style are you looking at?01:31
LDS_TrooperI did this in Inkscape:   http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c143/LDS_Trooper/Vector/dg_phone-2.png01:32
kwwiikiller, that looks pretty good for an icon01:33
kwwiicheck out the human stuff in ubuntu01:33
LDS_TrooperIts a bit large for an Icon tho01:33
kwwiiat this time things are still somewhat in motion (cough)01:33
LDS_Troopersounds like good timing01:34
kwwiisorry to say, but you caught me at a bad time actually...it's 1:34am here - time for sleep :p01:34
LDS_Trooperno worries01:35
LDS_Trooperwhich timezone are you in?01:35
troy_skwwii: Before you are off, have you any further push from Mark on anything?01:35
kwwiiI live in germany01:35
kwwiiso cet+1 or utc+2 at this time of the summer01:35
LDS_Trooper8 hours ahead of us01:35
kwwiitroy_s: I showed Mark a few of the ideas I had and we discussed a few things. I'll post some stuff toon01:36
troy_skwwii: Good to hear.01:36
LDS_Trooperhow can we join the mailing list?01:36
kwwiiI tried to play my cards and do some really wierd stuff and see how he reacts01:36
kwwiiit went better than I thought it would :-)01:36
troy_skwwii: You are going to have to if the art and design of any of the ubuntus is going to escape this mediocre uber-conservativism.01:37
kwwiiLDS_Trooper: erm, some crazy mailman interface I guess01:37
kwwiidude, you are asking hard questions after a long day and a couple of beers01:37
LDS_Trooperlol us Canadians can do that01:37
=== LDS_Trooper hears crickets
kwwiitroy_s: we have a long way to go, but I think things just might be really getting better01:42
troy_skwwii:  I really hope so.  The bottom line is that in order to achieve ANY degree of innovative design, he is going to need to do a couple of things01:43
troy_s1) let risks be taken01:43
troy_s2) ignore what the other two big boys are doing.01:43
troy_s3) ignore complaints.01:43
LDS_Trooperwhich big boys? Win and Mac?01:43
troy_s(as if you read all of the rubbish about the new leopard wallpaper decisions you can see how utterly useless it is to bother with worrying about bent noses)01:43
troy_sLDS_Trooper: yes.01:44
kwwiitroy_s: agreed, it means taking a big step back and trusting in things, to some degree01:44
troy_skwwii: Absolutely.01:44
troy_skwwii: The reality is that if we are going to do ANYTHING bloody innovative that makes the mainstreams go 'hey I want _that_' he is going to need to let creativity and innovation cleave into the mix.01:45
troy_sand that means the reality of the shock of 'newness'01:45
LDS_TrooperTroy what ideas do you have for the look?01:46
kwwiiyepp, and in the meantime we need to step up and keep in time, after which perhaps we can lead things again01:46
troy_sLDS_Trooper: God... I don't know.  When I do things for myself I tend to clearly identify an audience and a communication goal.01:46
troy_sLDS_Trooper: You can see a little smattering of some stuff on my blog if it is at all of interest to you.01:47
kwwiithe audience is clear: everyone who uses a computer01:47
LDS_Troopersure.. link?01:47
troy_syeah -- that's what he is aiming for and it is recipe for tepid, mediocre and horrible design.01:47
troy_sthe bottom line is that he needs to clearly identify the audience and stick to it.01:47
troy_skwwii: It is the very reason that the Vista / Mac wallpapers are more evocative -- they sacrifice the patented linux user 'i want it to be functional with all icons in all situations' for some communication.01:49
kwwiinot necessarily, I think that knowing that the core audience is perhaps younger or "different" thinking old-folks who tend to code a lot and try to make things fit for "most everyone" you'll reach the goal we are looking for01:49
troy_skwwii: Is and _want_ to be are two different things.01:49
kwwiitroy_s: I think the wallpaper argument is totally right - and there is no reason for it at all - full ack01:50
troy_skwwii: The younger audience of hackers isn't going to do Ubuntu any good -- they are already there and not really that important.01:50
kwwiiis and want are two different steps to a goal, as I see it01:50
troy_skwwii: If he were smart, he would select a mature audience that has the clout to make serious changes in their workplaces -- the power and agency to get ubuntu into places that matter.01:50
troy_skwwii: Start with their home desktops and build from there.01:51
troy_skwwii: Of course, having the 'cool' folks using it (the higher visibility artists / musicians / writers / etc) never hurts -- a very niche that Apple targets relentlessly by providing free computers to and paying big cash to get front place in movies and television.01:51
LDS_Trooperkwwii, I'm 35 and switched to Ubuntu because I am fed up with windows01:51
kwwiiand how do you suggest, with the artwork that has been supplied for the last year to accomplish that goal?01:52
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Good to have mature folks.01:52
LDS_Trooperhow does that fit into the "audience" well.. I'm not alone01:52
kwwiiLDS_Trooper: I am 36, no worries01:52
troy_skwwii: Well _all_ the artwork is rather irrelevant if we don't have Mark get behind having a clearly defined audience and a clearly defined goal for design.01:52
troy_skwwii: For example, look at the copy on Apple's website.01:52
kwwiiI always think that when I say "I went with my family to..." people think I went with my father and mother01:52
troy_skwwii: It is always riddled with colloquialisms and like bits -- the entire package is aimed at a very clear audience (mac vs pc advertisments also drive in that direction obviously)01:53
kwwiitroy_s: I promise you that if we had people step up now and contribute decent artwork that it would be included in some form01:53
troy_skwwii: Well I can only offer my theme I am afraid.  And even then, it has had to backseat to fluxbuntu and now potentially mythbuntu.01:53
troy_skwwii: But if it can get included to offer a little variation through the GDM/Wallpaper, that is terrific.01:54
troy_skwwii: Unfortunately you are put in the rather awkward spot of both accepting work and filtering work that is sub par in your eyes.  That is damn difficult.01:54
troy_skwwii: As rejecting work tends to bite into the generation of work.  Vicious cycle.01:55
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Sort of an appliance disk -- pop disk in and run mythtv.01:55
kwwiitroy_s: the problem is not discouraging people that might turn around and turn out to be amazing01:56
kwwiiI have met people, and included them in projects in which I thought they would never make it and after a few weeks they blew me away01:56
troy_skwwii: Exactly.  A critical mistake that Mark made early going.01:57
troy_skwwii: Everyone needs to learn and grow, and sometimes the first kick at the can might suck.  The reality is that _nothing_ will happen if that isn't fostered.01:57
kwwiiI think that him hiring me to do all this shows that he knows it was a bad situation01:57
troy_skwwii: He also suffers from 'once bitten' syndrome.01:58
kwwiiyou do not pay the kde guy to do gnome artwork unless you think that there is something behind it all01:58
troy_skwwii: The photos he originally wanted in for that earlier release left such a bad taste in his mouth that he refuses to budge on certain things.01:58
kwwiifunny enough, I am not the "kde guy" that he thinks or thought I am no do I have a problem making artwork for Gnome :-)01:59
kwwiiI think he realized that he cannot do whatever he thinks is right and therefor has to be really careful02:00
kwwiithat meant taking total control, unfortunately, and now I think things have changed a bit02:00
troy_skwwii: I would prefer him to do whatever the hell he wants, just make a clear statement doing it.02:00
kwwiiat least, I would like to think that he has some trust in me02:00
kwwiiI know that I am trying to change things for the better, in some ways more like they used to be before this whole thing started02:02
kwwiiand with that, I am going to bed02:02
troy_skwwii: It is nothing more than a whirlpool.02:02
troy_skwwii: Night.02:02
troy_skwwii: It hasn't changed yet.  Hopefully it will.02:02
kwwiino, nothing has changed yet as far as others can see, you are right in that02:02
troy_skwwii: Although again, I have always said that the earlier wallpapers were more evocative than the latters by a long shot.02:03
troy_skwwii: That said, they were horribly horribly monochromatic etc.02:03
troy_skwwii: Again returning to the keystones of basic design -- audience / communication and build upwards to palette etc.02:03
LDS_TrooperGood to meet you kwwii02:03
kwwiithe biggest problem is that nothing happens overnight, without a miracle02:03
troy_skwwii: A lot can happen in a very short while.02:03
troy_skwwii: I think many have proved that.02:03
troy_s_very_ short.02:03
kwwiiLDS_Trooper: nice to meet you too, see you soon, I hope02:03
troy_sgo get some sleep02:03
LDS_Trooperfor sure02:04
kwwiitroy_s: lol, yeah02:04
kwwiinight guys02:04
LDS_Troopertroy_s, do you have a link to your blog?02:04
troy_sLDS_Trooper: you are canadian?02:07
LDS_TrooperI am02:08
LDS_TrooperIn Alberta02:08
troy_sgood stuffs02:09
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Vancouver here.02:09
troy_s(burbs thereof)02:09
LDS_TrooperI spent about 6 months in New Westminster02:10
LDS_Trooperback in 1990 tho02:10
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troy_sLDS_Trooper: Good stuffs.02:12
troy_sLDS_Trooper: You should get some work up.02:13
LDS_Trooperwill do02:14
LDS_Trooperwhat areas are needed?02:14
LDS_Trooperwallies? Icons? what?02:14
LDS_TrooperI'm not certain on  how to make a theme just yet.. but I want to learn02:14
LDS_TrooperI must say I wasn't impressed with the mac styled desk that came with Fiesty02:15
troy_sLDS_Trooper: I think your best opportunity is to either join a community effort or do your own work to illustrate what you can do.02:18
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Almost all of ubuntu is rather locked in (aside from a potential wallpaper, but that is close to throwing darts at a board as to whether or not you can make progress on one)02:18
LDS_Trooperhow do you mean "locked in"02:21
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Long story.  Basically anything that gets done comes from up high02:32
LDS_TrooperI have no understanding of the ubuntu political structure02:33
troy_sLDS_Trooper: There is much political structure.02:35
LDS_Trooperhmm I guess some is needed..02:36
LDS_Trooperbut it can get in the way02:36
LDS_Trooperwho is Mark you were talking about?02:36
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Not much of caring nor attention to the art / design aspect.  Effective design rather needs that centralized push from a knowledgeable source.  Unfortunately, the centralized push is not from an ideal perspective in my opinion (solely mine of course).02:36
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Shuttleworth.  Brilliant guy.  Just not great on art / design.02:37
LDS_TrooperI see02:37
LDS_Trooperand what about the guy who made Ubuntu... how active is he?02:37
troy_sLDS_Trooper: LOL02:37
troy_sLDS_Trooper: That's him :)02:37
LDS_Trooperuhh oops02:38
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Of course, one of the central problems is that art and design issues tend to bring out experts from every closet niche in the galaxy -- regardless of their background, experience, or education.02:38
troy_sLDS_Trooper: The bikeshed is huge.02:38
LDS_Troopersorry I am doing a couple things at once.02:39
LDS_TrooperOne issue I have with Ubuntu in general is "not knowing"02:40
LDS_Troopermeaning.. Ubuntu out of the box has little for compiling of packages.02:40
LDS_Trooperand no indication of what you need.02:40
LDS_Troopershould come with I think...02:40
troy_swiki bikeshed :)02:42
LDS_TrooperI could be wrong.. but when someone comes to Ubuntu... they "look" at it first02:43
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Well that is beyond the scope of art and design really -- unless you abstract design to a higher level.02:43
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Absolutely.02:43
LDS_Trooperif it looks bad they dismiss it.02:43
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Well that's part of the problem, people throw around words like 'professional' 'bad' 'ugly' without having a clue as to the fact that those are relative terms.02:43
LDS_TrooperTroy not when you consider the compiling of Gimp plug ins02:43
LDS_Troopervery relative02:44
LDS_Trooperone thing I find attractive in Linux.. is how customizable it is.02:45
LDS_TrooperIf I get bored of a theme.. I can change it02:45
LDS_Trooperand more than just the desktop or three color options02:46
LDS_TrooperWould it be too much for ubuntu to offer two themes? One main and one secondary?02:47
LDS_TrooperThe secondary would be almost a polar opposite. So if they continue in the earth tones, the secondary could  be icy02:47
=== LDS_Trooper hears crickets
troy_ssorry LDS_Trooper was eating02:58
troy_swell i would be happy if we could get one unified bit of effort in the earthy range with a _proper_ palette, a motif, etc.02:59
troy_ssomething that has style.02:59
troy_sas opposed to a great tremendous vacuum of style.02:59
LDS_Troopersorry for caps03:00
LDS_TrooperIndeed that would make the effort more efficient03:00
troy_sLDS_Trooper: The problem is, again, the top.03:01
troy_sLDS_Trooper: There have been numerous attempts to integrate certain elements -- unfortunately there are many issues.03:01
LDS_TrooperI see03:01
troy_sFor one, we start out with the ability factor -- sometimes someone might have a good idea but a lack of execution.  Inevitably, this yields 'throw out baby with bathwater as we have tried that and it sucked' etc.03:02
troy_sTwo, people's knowledge of a 'palette' are extremely limited.03:02
troy_sThree, people's knowledge of aesthetics is extremely limited.  There are many people who firmly believe in such bunk concepts as 'color psychology' and a firmly locked belief in composition etc.03:02
LDS_Trooperwell one issue which I saw here today is that of "Personal Taste"03:03
troy_snot realizing that _everything_ is entirely contextual -- culturally, temporally (era), etc.03:03
troy_sLDS_Trooper: ?03:03
troy_sLDS_Trooper:  You would need to explain yourself a bit on that one.  Lost me.03:03
LDS_TrooperWell you clearly have a level of understanding and personal level of acceptance03:04
LDS_Trooperas do others.03:04
LDS_TrooperSo what you feel is amazing to another just isn't and that can spawn frustrations03:04
LDS_Trooperespecially when the other person is in a position to make decisions03:05
LDS_TrooperDoes that make sense?03:06
troy_sof course.03:07
troy_sthat is called the relative nature of all things03:07
troy_sbut in reality, having done many many creative projects and such03:07
troy_sonce you actually start down the path of execution, that sense of 'wow' quickly goes out the door for the 'god i hate this'03:07
troy_sPersonally, 'amazing' is the perfect combination of a clearly stated goal with a clearly stated audience and the presentation that meets both objectives.03:08
troy_sI have a great deal of respect for an artistic design decision that does that -- even if the basic aesthetic isn't terribly stimulating to me.03:09
LDS_TrooperI found the same in Broadcasting and editing...03:09
LDS_Troopermaking a music video means you will probably hate the song quickly. But with a clear understanding of audience and communication (or focus) you can get some "wow" from the intended crowd03:10
troy_sWell you can try.03:11
troy_sThat's about it.03:11
troy_sWe have won a few muchmusic awards etc for music videos and sometimes the accidents are as powerful as the planned executions.03:12
LDS_TrooperSo where would you take Ubuntu visually?03:12
troy_sMy personal preference is to start with what is already innately there.  Ubuntu is about community, it is about growth, it is about freedom.03:12
troy_sTo hammer that point home, it is also probably wise to be counter-culture.03:12
troy_sSo if you sum up the broad sweeping 'mainstream' operating systems as plastic shiny, Ubuntu naturally should be organic.03:13
troy_sNot exactly groundbreaking in terms of thinking :)03:13
LDS_Trooperbut good to define03:14
LDS_TrooperI think its in the example ogg03:14
LDS_Trooperbut I believe Mandela says something to the effect of03:15
LDS_Trooper"Ubuntu as a concept has many layers"03:15
LDS_TrooperIf so.. why follow the commercial guys?03:15
troy_sUh perhaps you misread me.03:16
troy_s<troy_s> To hammer that point home, it is also probably wise to be counter-culture.03:16
LDS_Trooperwhat is your definition of counter-culture?03:16
troy_sWhere Apple and MS are plastic (and possibly exploitable with their connection to plastic ideals / beliefs etc. from a marketing vantage)03:16
LDS_TrooperI ask because you are dealing with a global culture03:16
troy_sUbuntu should be organic.03:16
troy_sThere is _no_ such creature as global culture03:17
troy_sthere are _NO_ cross cultural motifs etc.  Nothing.03:17
troy_sits a myth03:17
troy_sin fact, the topic has just such a link to it.03:17
troy_sif you want _real_ research, I encourage you to read03:17
troy_s"Influence of Culture on Visual Perception" Segall, Campbell, Herskovits03:18
troy_sOr take any 'art in context 101' course ;)03:18
LDS_Troopersure thanks03:18
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Unfortunately, those types of 'myths' become fact when you are dealing with a group of extremely vocal people with little study in art / design.03:19
troy_sLDS_Trooper: and arguably, are the root of the problem that you are probably seeing.03:20
LDS_TrooperWell perhaps I made a mistake then.03:20
LDS_Trooperwhen you say "counter-culture" often the imagery of Hippy drugs come to mind.. but to the hippy it would be "government"03:21
troy_savant garde03:22
troy_stake the now and throw it away03:22
troy_smove to the next.03:22
troy_sthat's all.  Relatively simple.03:22
LDS_TrooperWell pehaps I should go then.03:22
troy_sbut yes... by 'counter-culture' i was specifically meaning to distance oneself from the 'culture' of computing as the mainstream audience sees it -- Apple and MS (perhaps governments of their own, eh?)03:22
troy_sNot at all.03:23
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Everyone is welcome here.  And ideas are about all we got.  :)03:23
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Where would you like to drive ubuntu?03:23
LDS_TrooperBut I did not come to get into a discussion on Design fanatics03:23
LDS_TrooperThe reality is that when someone is introduced to Ubuntu they look for similarity from their native OS.. win or mac03:24
LDS_Trooper"But windows did this"03:24
LDS_Trooperthat's for the programmers03:24
LDS_TrooperFor the arts.. one must realize that Win and Mac have been copying the Linux crowd for years03:25
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Hrm... I think Mac doesn't bother to look outside of itself at all when it comes to computing.  Their designers are well educated and know enough about looking to externals such as architecture, pop culture, etc.03:26
troy_s<LDS_Trooper> The reality is that when someone is introduced to Ubuntu they look for similarity from their native OS03:27
troy_sI would suggest that a good percentage of those that are drawn to Ubuntu choose Ubuntu because it is _different_.03:27
LDS_Trooperusers like myself are simply fed up with Windows and their "BS"03:28
troy_sand slowly the world is being exposed to the more ethical approach of free software, which is a positive.03:30
troy_sLDS_Trooper: But you still haven't said where you would drive Ubuntu if you were in charge :)03:31
LDS_TrooperVisually I would go in a similar direction as it is now.. but in a more focused manner03:32
LDS_TrooperI like the organic feel03:32
troy_sHrm... what component do you think feels organic?03:32
LDS_Trooperthe visuals03:33
LDS_Trooperthe colors03:33
troy_sHrm... there is one colour.  So you connect the brown to organic which is a positive.03:34
troy_sI would agree, I think the brown base tone is a wise avenue.  (Wiser if it had supporting players, but that is another story)03:34
LDS_Trooperbut then you have users out there wondering when Ubuntu will get out of the brown/orange mix03:35
troy_sLDS_Trooper: And your thoughts?03:36
LDS_TrooperWell I would offer two opposing themes on the same focus..03:36
LDS_Trooperone would be organic/earthy the other.. well Icy and cool blues..03:37
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Does that tackle the fact that when Ubuntu is displayed it is displayed with default wallpaper?03:37
troy_sLDS_Trooper: And the last thing that Ubuntu needs in my opinion is YABW.03:37
troy_sall the blue you want.03:37
LDS_Trooperthis what I am getting at...03:38
LDS_TrooperUbuntu could come ahead by informing its users03:38
LDS_Trooperwell options03:39
LDS_Trooperhow to customize.. what's out there.. where to get it03:39
LDS_Trooperanywho.. I do need to run.03:40
LDS_Trooperwhen are you on mostly?03:40
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Good chat... idle on here when you can.03:40
troy_sLDS_Trooper: During the week I tend to work about 14+ hours per day, so once per evening at around 930 or so Pacific.03:40
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Weekends more.03:41
troy_sLDS_Trooper: Drop me some email, I'd love to hear your thoughts etc...03:41
LDS_TrooperSounds good03:41
LDS_Trooperwe are an hour apart no?03:41
LDS_Trooper19:40 hear03:41
troy_sLDS_Trooper: I am always interested in collaborating with people who are dedicated.03:41
troy_sYeah I think alberta is 1 hour...03:41
troy_sTime now for you?  641 here.03:41
troy_s741 there?03:42
LDS_Trooperyes 19:4103:42
LDS_Troopersorry I use miliary time03:42
troy_serk yeah03:42
troy_sprobably better :)03:42
troy_sso one hour.03:42
LDS_Troopersee you tomorrow evening sometime03:42
troy_sOK ... well send me some email my friend.03:42
troy_sYeah... take care.03:42
LDS_Troopermaybe we can get passed some of this and actually look at some work03:43
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=== Topic for #ubuntu-artwork: Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork! http://www.uigarden.net/english/global-market-global-emotion-global-design
=== Topic (#ubuntu-artwork): set by troy_s at Sun Aug 12 21:58:01 2007
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Darth_Gimpkwwii, you there?12:44
kwwiihehe, give me a chance12:47
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Instabin|workcould someone fix my submition https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Blubuntu/BlubuntuWallpaper05:41
Instabin|workits at the bottom05:41
Instabin|workNever mind i figured it out06:06
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Instabin|worktake a look at the wall paper I made and let me know what you think https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Blubuntu/BlubuntuWallpaper10:10
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