[12:45] <kwwii> night all
[01:05] <bicchi> I am having a hard time creating a bootable usb flash installation. can anyone help?
[01:07] <bicchi> i am trying to install the regular ubuntu desktop into my machine and the machine can boot from usb.
[03:10] <HappyCamp> Does anyone know if the gutsy archive has any dependency issues?
[03:10] <HappyCamp> I'm getting this:
[03:10] <HappyCamp> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
[03:10] <HappyCamp>   dpkg: Breaks: aptitude (< 0.4.6.1-1ubuntu2) but 0.4.6.1-1ubuntu1 is to be
[03:10] <HappyCamp> installed
[03:11] <HappyCamp> Just wondering if this is a known issue or we got issues on our side.
[03:21] <agoliveira> HappyCamp: THis should not happen but it's possible that dependencies break from time to time at this stage.
[03:22] <HappyCamp> agoliveira, Okay.  We are seeing some dependency issues when doing an apt-get install using image-creator
[03:22] <HappyCamp> agoliveira, robr, rob_ https://www.moblin.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=68
[06:05] <miles_> hi
[01:11] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: good morning
[01:12] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: have you pushed your dates patch upstream yet?
[01:12] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Not yet I wanted to know if they are working ok first but I can do it right now if you feel is important to do it fast.
[01:14] <Mithrandir> it would be good to do it now for two reasons: it gives them more time to tell us if they feel the patch is wrong, and secondly it makes it more likely they'll merge it when they get it, since they likely won't have gone very far, development-wise from what the patch is based on.
[01:14] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: however, I didn't see why you commented out a block around the "TODO: multiple calendar UI"; can you tell me why?
[01:16] <agoliveira> No problem, I'll see that.
[01:17] <Mithrandir> and I can't download your claws upload, so can you put it on rookery or another machine that's actually working? :-)
[01:17] <agoliveira> About the comment, I forgot to explain: this is supoort for multiple simultaneous calendars and it does not work in maemo as it works fullscreen.
[01:17] <agoliveira> Really? I tested yerterday...
[01:17] <agoliveira> Let me see...
[01:18] <agoliveira> Crap. It's really down today.
[01:25] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: I've never used our internal machines like rookery, I'll have to set it up. Hold on, please.
[01:28] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: BTW, have you poked someone (doko?) about the missing parts on lpia?
[01:28] <Mithrandir> no, I've fixed them myself.
[01:28] <agoliveira> Cool.
[01:45] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: http://adilson.net/claws-mail_2.10.0-2.tar.gz
[01:45] <agoliveira> http://adilson.net/claws-mail_2.10.0-2.dsc
[01:45] <Mithrandir> have you been in touch with upstream about this too?
[01:46] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: I sent an email yesterday but didn't get answer yet.
[01:46] <Mithrandir> ok
[01:49] <doko> agoliveira: which missing parts?
[01:50] <agoliveira> doko: Don't worry, Mithrandir took care of it but it was a few hildon dependencies missing.
[01:50] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: BTW, I'll apreciate if you tell me a better way to do what I did on debian/rules. It works but don't feel right.
[01:51] <doko> well, thats mobil stuff, not bootstrap stuff.
[01:52] <agoliveira> doko: True.
[02:04] <kwwii_> so how is the keyboard defined and themed?
[02:04] <Mithrandir> it's part of the matchbox-keyboard source.
[02:05] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: for claws?
[02:05] <agoliveira> yes
[02:08] <agoliveira> ok, going to tasks now...
[02:10] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: you never tried to build this in a clean chroot, did you? :-)
[02:14] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: I was using lpia chroot but in this case not really.
[02:14] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Too buggy?
[02:15] <Mithrandir> missing build-dep on libhildon-1-dev, at least
[02:17] <agoliveira> Ouch...
[02:56] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Conf call in 4?
[02:56] <Mithrandir> yup
[03:35] <amitk_> Mithrandir: just received the crown beach
[03:36] <Mithrandir> amitk_: yay you.
[03:37] <bicchi> I am having a hard time creating a usb bootable image. I have downloaded the ubuntu iso, now what?
[03:37] <bicchi> i have a 1 gb flash drive 
[03:43] <agoliveira> bicchi: The UME image is already made to run from a USB drive
[03:44] <bicchi> agoliveira: where do i get this image?
[03:44] <agoliveira> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/moblin/ but you may want to try also the image-builder
[03:44] <bicchi> agoliveira: i forgot to mention that i am trying to install the regular desktop edition. 
[03:45] <agoliveira> bicchi: So you better ask in another channel. This one is for UME.
[03:45] <bicchi> ok
[03:45] <kwwii> I think that I will try image-builder later tonight
[03:46] <kwwii> as the package depency problems do not appear to be fixing themselves
[03:46] <bicchi> image-builder builds any type of bootable image. is that what is for?
[03:47] <agoliveira> bicchi: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/CreatingAnImageForUMEDevice
[03:49] <Mithrandir> kwwii: hmm?  If you run apt-get update, it should work fine now.
[03:49] <kwwii> Mithrandir: hehe, I have been doing that every hour since last night and now it works ;-)
[03:50] <kwwii> well, I did sleep and take time off for lunch ;-)
[03:51] <kwwii> so looking at the source of the keyboard, I see that I can define my own layout (yeah!)
[03:51] <kwwii> I guess that the themeing comes directly from hildon?
[03:52] <Mithrandir> I think it's drawn directly by matchbox-keyboard.
[03:52] <Mithrandir> there's been some talk from the openmoko people about adding a proper theme engine, but unsure where that's going.
[03:53] <kwwii> ouch, that makes things a bit more interesting ;-)
[03:54] <bicchi> agoliveira: If I am running a desktop with amd64, can i build an image for the samsung q1 which is i386 using the image-creator tool?
[03:55] <agoliveira> bicchi: Yes, it uses chroots.
[03:56] <kwwii> Mithrandir: so to start UME in a window, I become the ume user in my chroot and then run sudo DISPLAY=:0 xinit /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc -- /usr/bin/Xephyr :2 -host-cursor -screen 1024x600x32 96 -ac
[03:56] <kwwii> ?
[03:56] <Mithrandir> not sudo
[03:56] <Mithrandir> but otherwise looks right.
[03:59] <kwwii> hrm, I wonder what I am doing wrong :-)
[04:00] <Mithrandir> xhost +SI:localuser:ume ?
[04:01] <kwwii> yes...but is that supposed to be in my chroot or something?
[04:02] <kwwii> it keeps complaining that I have not set the DISPLAY (Xephyr cannot open host display. Is DISPLAY set?)
[04:02] <kwwii> xinit:  Connection refused (errno 111):  unable to connect to X server
[04:02] <kwwii> xinit:  No such process (errno 3):  Server error.
[04:04] <Mithrandir> no, in your host system
[04:04] <Mithrandir> hm, if you call mount, does it list /tmp as bind-mounted?
[04:05] <kwwii>  ... /tmp on /home/chroots/gutsy-mobile-lpia type none (rw,bind)
[04:06] <Mithrandir> if you do ls -l /tmp in the chroot, does it list .X0-lock ?
[04:06] <kwwii> (gutsy-mobile-lpia)root@clive:~# ls -l /tmp
[04:06] <kwwii> total 0
[04:07] <Mithrandir> ls -la
[04:07] <Mithrandir> (sorry)
[04:07] <kwwii> hehe, I could have thought too ;-)
[04:07] <kwwii> (gutsy-mobile-lpia)root@clive:~# ls -la /tmp
[04:07] <kwwii> total 20
[04:07] <kwwii> drwxrwxrwt  4 root root 4096 Aug 17 14:02 .
[04:07] <kwwii> drwxrwxrwt 14 root root 4096 Aug 17 13:47 ..
[04:07] <kwwii> drwxrwxrwt  2 root root 4096 Aug 16 20:40 .ICE-unix
[04:07] <kwwii> drwxrwxrwt  2 root root 4096 Aug 16 20:40 .X11-unix
[04:07] <kwwii> -r--r--r--  1 ume  ume    11 Aug 17 14:02 .X2-lock
[04:08] <Mithrandir> ok, so it's not bind-mounted then
[04:08] <Mithrandir> do sudo umount /home/chroots/gutsy-mobile-lpia ; sudo mount --bind /tmp /home/chroots/gutsy-mobile-lpia/tmp
[04:08] <Mithrandir> (in the host system) and try again
[04:09] <kwwii> it actually popped up a window for a second!
[04:09] <kwwii> error opening security policy file /etc/X11/xserver/SecurityPolicy
[04:10] <kwwii> and it complains about a bunch of missing fonts
[04:11] <Mithrandir> try doing apt-get install dbus-x11 gtk2-engines-sapwood hildon-control-panel hildon-desktop hildon-theme-mobile-basic language-pack-en marquee-plugins matchbox-window-manager mobile-basic-flash sdk-default-icons
[04:11] <Mithrandir> and see if that helps
[04:12] <kwwii> mobile-basic-flash: Depends: libxul0d but it is not installable
[04:13] <Mithrandir> ignore that one, then
[04:14] <kwwii> hrm, when I start it is complains about "Could not create server lock file: /tmp/.X2-lock"
[04:14] <kwwii> I think I accidentaly tried to start it as root
[04:14] <Mithrandir> change the :2 to :3
[04:15] <kwwii> Xephyr: requested screen depth not supported, setting to match hosts.
[04:15] <kwwii> reducing the depth to 16 gets rid of that error
[04:15] <kwwii> but it still only flashes for a second and is gone
[04:15] <Mithrandir> hm
[04:16] <Mithrandir> as root in the chroot, try starting dbus.
[04:16] <Mithrandir> so, be root in the chroot and do /etc/init.d/dbus start
[04:16] <kwwii>  * system message bus already started; not starting.
[04:17] <kwwii> I stopped it and startedit again
[04:18] <kwwii> http://pastebin.ca/661061 is the whole info when it dies
[04:19] <Mithrandir> does ~ume/.xsession-errors contain anything useful?
[04:20] <kwwii> lol, sounds grim, that file....
[04:20] <kwwii> Xsession: X session started for ume at Fri Aug 17 14:17:15 UTC 2007
[04:20] <kwwii> Xsession: unable to start X session --- no "/home/ume/.xsession" file, no
[04:20] <kwwii> "/home/ume/.Xsession" file, no session managers, no window managers, and no
[04:20] <kwwii> terminal emulators found; aborting.
[04:21] <Mithrandir> install ume-config-samsung-q1-ultra
[04:22] <mdz> Mithrandir: ~ume?  all my installs run the X session as root and have no non-system users
[04:22] <Mithrandir> mdz: I've asked kwwii to add a non-root user.
[04:22] <mdz> ah
[04:23] <Mithrandir> I prefer to not do stuff as root unless I have to; UME is going to do the same too once I find the time to fix that bug.
[04:23] <Mithrandir> but I think I'll call it a week now.
[04:25] <kwwii> w00t
[04:25] <kwwii> now it works
[04:25] <Mithrandir> \o/
[04:25] <Mithrandir> great
[04:25] <kwwii> the little of it that is there, at least
[04:25] <kwwii> thanks man, appreciate the time it took you to help me ;-)
[04:27] <kwwii> I guess that once libxul builds I can install the flash stuff too
[04:27] <Mithrandir> it's not completely there yet, but having to walk you through it makes it easier for me to actually see which bits are hard and which could easily be automated
[04:33] <kwwii> I guess one has to install programs individually now that the basic desktop is running?
[04:34] <Mithrandir> yes.
[04:34] <Mithrandir> soonish, we'll have ubuntu-mobile pulling in the right set of packages, but it's been lagging since lots of stuff haven't been built on lpia
[04:34] <kwwii> cool, I'll play around with this a bit. thanks again for the help
[04:36] <kwwii> going to pick up my son's new bicycle soon (he is dancing around outside my office)
[04:40] <amitk_> ever see this error? http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/34061/
[05:01] <bspencer> kwwii: ping
[05:03] <bspencer> kwwii: ok...so I could say I mixed up the time zones and thought 8am was your 4pm... but actually I just slept in.  horaceli is here when you get back to chat a bit about theme.
[05:04] <horaceli> kwwii, hello. I am here if you are back. we could talk about theme stuff
[05:16] <kyleN> horaceli, kwwii: I am interested in talking about theme stuff
[05:17] <kyleN> for example, I can see that gtkrc and matchbox themes are used
[05:17] <bspencer> kyleN: cool
[05:17] <kyleN> I also notice that some icon theme directories are present, but the implementation doesn't seem complete
[05:17] <kyleN> for example, I don't think (could be wrong) the current icon theme is ever set
[05:18] <kyleN> and the three icon theme dirs present don't seem to implement the fallback architecture
[05:18] <kyleN> so my question overall is: how complete is the current theme implementation?
[05:18] <bspencer> if it is set, it is inadvertent.  I created the hildon-theme-mobile-basic theme from plankton from 0 knowledge of how themes work.  I never set the icon theme.
[05:19] <kyleN> ok
[05:19] <kyleN> i don't know much about themeing, but I am trying to learn 
[05:19] <bspencer> and I didn't create it using the hildon tools because I'm not an artist.  So I just changed a few files to get the current UI look (black toolbar, etc).
[05:19] <bspencer> hopefully kwwii  can help us there.
[05:20] <kyleN> yes, I traced many of the current files displayed back to where they reside in the file system
[05:20] <kyleN> by changing them, trial and error mostly
[05:20] <bspencer> ha, me too.  I would also change them to bright pink to see if they were used somewhere I didn't know about
[05:21] <kyleN> I made a list if you're interested
[05:21] <bspencer> maybe we could use a launchpad wiki to track some of this
[05:21] <kyleN> great minds think alike ;)
[05:21] <kyleN> I notice there seem to be lots and lots of image files that are not used... true?
[05:21] <bspencer> yes
[05:21] <bspencer> about 400 of them
[05:22] <kyleN> yes...
[05:22] <bspencer> only the "mb_" ones are the ones I made
[05:22] <kyleN> that's what I guessed.
[05:22] <bspencer> but the menu ones get used, I didn't change those
[05:22] <kyleN> right, for example the calculator app in extras has its icon in /usr/share/icons/gnome/..
[05:22] <bspencer> btw, nice to meet you kyleN.  Have we met before?
[05:23] <kyleN> I don't think so. nice to meet you. I just joined the irc this week
[05:23] <bspencer> have you looked at the hildon slicer tools?
[05:23] <kyleN> no... what are they?
[05:24] <bspencer> the basic idea is to come up with one large png file and it will slice it up into the 500+ small theme files
[05:24] <kyleN> what is the advantage of this as opposed to having lots of files?
[05:24] <bspencer> I guess easier to keep everything together.  One file to manage
[05:25] <horaceli> in this case, deverloper who is creating theme don't need to care about the picture name
[05:25] <kyleN> ok.  is this just a plan at this point or is it implemented?
[05:25] <bspencer> but you also have to have a layout file that details the coordinates of each of the embeded pictures inside the large png
[05:25] <bspencer> it is implemented
[05:25] <horaceli> since the small theme files has unique names for hildon-desktop or other widgets to recognize
[05:26] <bspencer> but the mobile-baisc theme doesn't have a large file yet.  I didn't go back and edit the big plankton png file, I just tweaked the end-result files in the "images" folder
[05:26] <kyleN> what aspects of themeing doees this address, icons and other images, such as backgrounds?
[05:27] <bspencer> icons are a mixed bag and I don't totally know which ones are supposed to be part of the theme and which are not
[05:27] <bspencer> generally the icons go in the icons folders you were talking about, not in the big png file that gets sliced
[05:27] <kyleN> I see. can there be two files that get sliced, in case one needs it?
[05:27] <bspencer> not now.  the tool just takes in a single file iirc
[05:28] <kyleN> is the slicing a run time thing? or is it sliced at build time resulting in lots of files?
[05:28] <bspencer> no
[05:28] <bspencer> build time.   A one-time activity when the png changes.
[05:29] <bspencer> At runtime the theme is like you see in the /usr/share/theme folders
[05:29] <kyleN> ok, so it slices the file up using the config file to set the resulting file names?\
[05:30] <bspencer> horaceli: how do the file names get assigned?
[05:31] <kyleN> I wonder if it would be possible to strip all the unused image files.  For example many that start with "qgn"
[05:31] <bspencer> horaceli_:   how's the network connection going?
[05:31] <ian_brasil> kyleN: do you have this list available somewhere?
[05:31] <horaceli_> not good.
[05:31] <bspencer> kyleN:  yeah, I tried that many (many) times
[05:32] <kyleN> Hi ian. it is in process...
[05:32] <bspencer> but hildon has some bugs which cause bad things to happen when the theming files aren't there
[05:32] <kyleN> oh really?
[05:32] <bspencer> esp with the statusbar
[05:32] <bspencer> you can do it easily.  Just create a "bk" file in the "images" folder and "mv qgn* bk"
[05:33] <bspencer>  /usr/share/theme/mobile-basic/images
[05:33] <bspencer> then restart X
[05:33] <bspencer> (I haven't done this for months.)
[05:33] <kyleN> yes. I was wondering if they can/should be deleted permanently
[05:34] <bspencer> I wanted to quickly reduce the theme to only the pictures that were used
[05:34] <ian_brasil> kyleN: cool , can't wait :)
[05:34] <kyleN> yes, that is a laudable goal!
[05:34] <bspencer> because we don't yet have all of the elements that Nokia has
[05:34] <kyleN> so what is the obstacle to removing them? 
[05:34] <bspencer> but there were a few things like menus that I didn't make "mb_" replacements for.  So the menus will get lost.  You'll have to disocver which files belog to the menus and other pieces
[05:35] <bspencer> kyleN: the right way is to understand which theme files the hildon code uses
[05:35] <kyleN> I did figure out which files form the border to application menus and submenus
[05:35] <bspencer> and that isn't obvious to me
[05:35] <bspencer> kyleN:  great information
[05:35] <kyleN> form, I meant, not from
[05:35] <bspencer> that is a good step
[05:36] <kyleN> so, to be a complete idiot, I would ask the following:
[05:36] <bspencer> we should go through the hildon-desktop code and understand what graphics are being called for
[05:36] <kyleN> ok, so it's the hildon-desktop source code?
[05:36] <bspencer> then document how each application should use themes, icons, etc.  That would be a big help and get everyone on the same page
[05:36] <kyleN> I suppose I can download that and look at it
[05:36] <bspencer> yes
[05:37] <bspencer> hildon-desktop is the pkg that sets up the menus, borders, panels, etc.
[05:37] <horaceli_> bspencer, I guess not the only the hildon desktop package, but also the hildon library
[05:37] <bspencer> horaceli:  what is this pkg called?
[05:37] <kyleN> what's the purpose of hildon library?
[05:37] <bspencer> hildon library is whta applications use
[05:38] <bspencer> hildon-desktop is the window management code, panels, plugins, home screen
[05:38] <kyleN> ok
[05:38] <horaceli_> right, application also has hildon menu with a frame
[05:38] <horaceli_> is that right?
[05:39] <kyleN> so the application's menu is from hildon library, we are supposing...
[05:39] <horaceli_> we could figure it out by reading gtkrc and gtkrc.maemo-af-desktop file in /usr/share/theme/mobilebasic/gtkrc
[05:39] <kyleN> and the rest from hildon-desktop
[05:39] <bspencer> horaceli:  right. do you know if that is where the menu is drawn though?
[05:39] <horaceli_> it should be defined in those two files
[05:39] <bspencer> yeah.  but those aren't small :)
[05:40] <kyleN> those gtkrc files specify image files, but not the source code package... right?
[05:40] <horaceli_> right.
[05:41] <bspencer> but some file in the theme folder has the ability to map a class to a particular layout or image
[05:41] <kyleN> bspencer, right
[05:41] <bspencer> maybe it is in the matchbox/theme.xml file.  I can't recall and don't have my device handy
[05:41] <kyleN> gtkrc files map styles to classes and class instances
[05:42] <kyleN> matchbox theme.xml describes window decoration, but I have question about this...
[05:42] <kyleN> the question is that matchbox has four kinds of windows....
[05:42] <kyleN> main, dialog, menu and toolbar (I think)
[05:43] <kyleN> do hildon apps run in a main matchbox window?
[05:44] <kyleN> the matchbox theme file specifies theme stuff for "dialog" window types
[05:44] <horaceli_> https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/hildon-theme-plankton/template/template.png
[05:44] <kyleN> and for "message" window types
[05:45] <kyleN> horaceli, is that the nokia slicer png?
[05:45] <horaceli_> we could refer to this picture, it has small pictures combine and list the widget name it belongs to
[05:45] <horaceli_> yes
[05:45] <horaceli_> I think we could refer to that format
[05:46] <horaceli_> and slice our theme up by hildon-theme-tools like maemo does.
[05:46] <horaceli_> since hildon-theme-tools have already in UME
[05:47] <kyleN> ume had hildon-theme-tools?
[05:47] <kyleN> haS
[05:47] <kyleN> this is an interesting idea.
[05:47] <horaceli_> yes
[05:47] <kyleN> I think it may in fact make developing the visual aspects of a theme more easily manageable
[05:47] <horaceli_> I checked the archive, it is already there
[05:48] <kyleN> bspencer, you said you did this for the current them, right?
[05:48] <horaceli_> and also there is a hildon-theme-layout package, which inlcudes a layout config file for hildon-theme-tools to slice up the template.png above
[05:48] <horaceli_> the layout config file mainly defines each small picture's position and size
[05:48] <bspencer> there is no large template.png file for the current mobile-basic theme unfortunately
[05:49] <kyleN> does the config file also specify each resulting files name/location?
[05:49] <horaceli_> bob used the sliced up theme package and added mobile basic pictures
[05:49] <horaceli_> yes
[05:49] <horaceli_> kyleN
[05:50] <horaceli_> with that, art designer will not care about the picture name
[05:50] <kyleN> so, my question is this: why is it easier to maintain a config file, instead of just having separate images? seems like the config file would be a lot of work.
[05:50] <horaceli_> and only focused on the art work
[05:50] <kyleN> true
[05:50] <kyleN> who creates the config file?
[05:50] <horaceli_> we could do that
[05:50] <horaceli_> I could do that
[05:50] <kyleN> good answer ;)
[05:51] <horaceli_> if we are not using default hildon-theme-layout.hehe
[05:51] <bspencer> we need a full time theme master
[05:51] <kyleN> probably do, at that
[05:51] <bspencer> horaceli_: I guess we need to go through the template and identify what we need
[05:51] <kyleN> well, I am thinking about next steps
[05:52] <horaceli_> bspencer, I agree
[05:52] <horaceli_> and remove those that we don't need
[05:52] <horaceli_> like clock, as I know. :-)?
[05:52] <kyleN> but the nokia template is not necessarily the same as what the UME needs, is it?
[05:52] <horaceli_> and volume bar?w
[05:52] <kyleN> why not start with what we know UME needs
[05:53] <bspencer> hm, how do we know what to put in the theme?  clock is a good example.  what apps get theme pieces and what don't?
[05:53] <kyleN> I made a list of what I found
[05:53] <kyleN> one question I have is about themeing apps... is it possible?
[05:54] <bspencer> I guess the apps Nokia "themed" are those embeded in the homescreen or panels
[05:54] <kyleN> in other words UME has a list of images - fine they can be themed. apps add arbitrary new images... how do they get added to UME to be themable?
[05:54] <bspencer> and other applications use the theme window decorations, buttons, etc., but no other app-specific grahpics are in the theme.
[05:54] <bspencer> kyleN:  I don't think so
[05:54] <kyleN> right, app specific images are not themable
[05:55] <bspencer> unless the app has "skin" support
[05:55] <bspencer> but that is mangaed per app
[05:55] <kyleN> aha, a new wrinkle!
[05:56] <kyleN> one possible next step is to take my list of known desktop images and create the png and config file to make it themeable
[05:56] <horaceli_> kyleN,
[05:57] <kyleN> I am not certain whether gtk images fit into this... do they? (button backgrounds etc.)
[05:57] <horaceli_> yes. when the png file is ready, I could create the layout config file to slice it up
[05:57] <horaceli_> maybe backgrounds  are seperate ones.
[05:57] <kyleN> why do they have to be?
[05:58] <horaceli_> good question. :-)
[05:58] <horaceli_> in hildon-theme-plankton, they seperate them
[05:58] <kyleN> question: does the slicer tool let you put the resulting images wherever you want?
[05:59] <horaceli_> but I think it could also be OK to combine backgrounds into template.png
[05:59] <kyleN> if so, it exapnds the reach of theming to include gtk...
[06:00] <horaceli_> the slicer tool only slice the whole png into small pictures. put pictures to somewhere is done by Makefile, I think
[06:00] <bspencer> hm.. by backgrounds you mean panel backgrounds?
[06:00] <kyleN> that's fine. makefile works
[06:00] <bspencer> not the desktop background
[06:00] <kyleN> no, I was thinking GTK widget backgrounds and other widget images
[06:00] <horaceli_> oh, I misunderstand it. :-P
[06:00] <bspencer> ok.  it seems those are in the template.png 
[06:01] <kyleN> buttons, menus, combo boxes
[06:01] <horaceli_> yes, bob is right
[06:01] <bspencer> all of these go into the "images" folder too, I think.
[06:01] <bspencer> mm, kyleN -- how does GTK get its theme images... that is a good question
[06:02] <kyleN> yes. in fact I see in the template.png images relating to hildon-specific wdigets, like the contorl bar
[06:02] <bspencer> are these just for Hildon widgets?
[06:02] <horaceli_> it should be defined in gtkrc
[06:02] <kyleN> those are the hildonized gtk widgets
[06:02] <kyleN> yes, gtk has defaults, which are overridden by gtkrc, I think
[06:04] <kyleN> horaceli, how would you figure out the exact locations of images in the png for slicer?
[06:05] <horaceli_> kyleN, is it possible to combine what you have already known of ume needed images into a whole png?
[06:05] <kyleN> yes it is
[06:05] <horaceli_> kyleN, I think I could get the position and size by some picture viewer? :-)
[06:05] <kyleN> ok.
[06:06] <kyleN> if we did this, does this go into the source? I mean, would you check in changes and such?
[06:06] <horaceli_> I always do that, by put mouse on the position and then read the x, y coordinate
[06:06] <horaceli_> yes
[06:06] <horaceli_> I could create the layout config file based the information from the whole png file.
[06:06] <kyleN> do you think we can also remove all the unnecessary images from ume? there seem to be lots and lots
[06:07] <horaceli_> and then call hildon-theme-tools to slice it up
[06:08] <bspencer> we could look at the hildon plankton package and model it.
[06:08] <kyleN> bspencer said there are bugs when some images that are not used are removed... what can we do about this?
[06:08] <bspencer> we can remove what we don't think we need too.
[06:08] <horaceli_> that could be possible, it may need your help to tune the whole png file. if we found some picture is mandatory.
[06:08] <bspencer> no, there are bugs when some images that are used are removed  :)
[06:08] <kyleN> oh, I misunderstood! ;)
[06:09] <bspencer> if you think you've got /the/ list of images, just remove the others in the current "images" folder and see if everything looks the same
[06:09] <kyleN> how can we test removing all unnecessary images? can I just delete them from my target and try to run?
[06:09] <kyleN> ok, but there are also lots in /usr/share/icons
[06:10] <horaceli_> yes, so maybe you could reuse some part in template.png. :-)
[06:10] <kyleN> and what is the purposed of /usr/share/pixmaps ? anyone know?
[06:11] <kyleN> i guess I am hoping to pare out all the unnecessary stuff and simply down to what's really needed in a way that's easily manageable
[06:11] <kyleN> simplify
[06:11] <horaceli_> I thought /usr/share/icons are for icon theme, and /usr/share/pixmaps are for some miscellaneous icons. 
[06:11] <horaceli_> but I am not quite sure
[06:11] <bspencer> brb
[06:12] <kyleN> yes, I believe icons is for icon themes, but I don't think the framework really uses/supports that yet
[06:12] <kyleN> i notice that gutsy has a gconf key named icon_theme=Human but not my ume target
[06:13] <kyleN> do we need "miscellaneous" icons though? can't they all be: true themable icons, UME themed images, or app-specific, non-themable? 
[06:14] <kyleN> that's three categories: themed icons, themed desktop images, and app-specific images
[06:15] <horaceli_> kyleN, currently we used to put status bar plugin icons in /usr/share/pixmaps, like battery indicator
[06:15] <horaceli_> but maybe it could be packed as an icon theme.
[06:16] <kyleN> yes, and I notice the top left image for the main menu is in there too.
[06:16] <horaceli_> right.
[06:16] <kyleN> if it is a toobar image, it seems like an icon, so maybe we should figure out how to set the icon theme in UME and see if it works
[06:16] <kyleN> I did some experimenting with icon themes.
[06:16] <kyleN> I wrote a simple python app and added it to the Extras menu
[06:17] <kyleN> its desktop file names its icon
[06:17] <kyleN> the icon would appear in the menu when I put it in any of the three present icon theme directories
[06:17] <kyleN> usr/share/icons/gnome .... /usre/share/icons/hildon or /usr/share/icons/hicolor
[06:18] <kyleN> so I think we don't set the icon theme and it looks EVERYWHERE in icons
[06:18] <kyleN> but it should only look in the current icon theme and any fallback icon themes the current theme specifices (I think)
[06:20] <kyleN> does this ring true or am I walking the plank here ;)
[06:20] <bspencer> I nominate you as icon master
[06:20] <kyleN> crap
[06:20] <kyleN> ;)
[06:20] <bspencer> heh
[06:21] <kyleN> so here's a question; do we think UME supports icon themes, if we can figure out how to turn it on?
[06:21] <kyleN> icon themes are a freedesktop standard that is used in gnome desktop
[06:21] <kyleN> does that mean we have it?
[06:21] <bspencer> should it?
[06:21] <bspencer> no idea
[06:22] <cathy_ubuntu> bspencer, are you around?
[06:22] <kyleN> I guess it does, since my icon is found and displayed, but I guess we simply don't ever specifiy the current icon theme or set up the hierarchy
[06:23] <bspencer> cathy_ubuntu: hello.  
[06:23] <kyleN> if anyone can tell me how to set the icon theme, I'd be grateful!
[06:24] <cathy_ubuntu> We need some icon pictures for mobile player plugins, can you talk with Jeremy?
[06:26] <kyleN> bspencer, horaceli_, thanks for all this. I'll be working on this and will be on irc next week to follow up with stuff.
[06:27] <kyleN> In general, I think I'd like to propose the following:
[06:27] <kyleN> 1) implement icon themes
[06:28] <kyleN> 2) don't use /usr/share/pixmaps for miscellaneous, but make all images and icons themeable
[06:28] <horaceli> hi, kyleN. u still there?
[06:28] <kyleN> 3) make the master ume png
[06:29] <kyleN> yes
[06:29] <horaceli> i lost connection
[06:29] <kyleN> ok
[06:29] <horaceli> anything I missed?
[06:29] <horaceli> I saw the task 3). :-)
[06:29] <kyleN> yes... a little
[06:29] <bspencer> kyleN, what's your email addr?
[06:29] <horaceli> when will it be available?
[06:29] <kyleN> kyle@pepper.com
[06:29] <bspencer> thx.
[06:30] <kyleN> I'd like to see if we can agree on a plan of action
[06:30] <kyleN> can I make a proposal of the things we might discuss and possibly do?
[06:31] <kyleN> maybe I can email bspencer and horaceli_?
[06:31] <horaceli> sure. any proposal is welcome
[06:31] <horaceli> my email is horace.li@intel.com, fyi
[06:32] <kyleN> ok. bspencer, your email?
[06:32] <horaceli> spencer.bob@intel.com
[06:32] <kyleN> I'll send something simple out today to you two
[06:33] <horaceli> bob.spencer@intel.com
[06:33] <horaceli> :-). the latter is the corrent one
[06:33] <horaceli> thanks, kyleN
[06:34] <kyleN> ok, I have to eat lunch. Thanks to you two.
[06:34] <horaceli> :-). see ya
[06:45] <Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Are you on? Tracking info claims your Menlow was delivered.  Is that right?
[06:52] <agoliveira> Charliefjohnson: Tollef left already but I heard that Amit's board was delivered.
[06:56] <Charliefjohnson> agoliveira: I can't keep track of what time it is where.  The tracking info says one of the sytems is in Helsinki still.
[06:57] <agoliveira> Charliefjohnson: Yes, that's Amit's.
[06:57] <agoliveira> Amit lives in Helsinki, Tollef in Norway (I don't recall the city).
[07:01] <Charliefjohnson> agoliveira: Now I understand.  Thanks.
[09:28] <Ra__> Hello
[09:46] <kwwii> re
[09:47] <kwwii> reading the log now
[09:50] <kwwii> bspencer: I tweaked the current "big png" to make it black, guess that would be the best place to start
[09:51] <kwwii> bspencer: I also started to edit the svg source so that it looks black in the way we want it
[09:51] <kwwii> bspencer: but just making the pics black is a long way from making the whole thing correct - we will have to edit the gtkrc to use the right colors as well
[10:13] <agoliveira> Anyone from Pepper around?
[10:25] <Sciri> agoliveira: What's up? Questions for Pepper?
[10:26] <agoliveira> Sciri: I'll be with you shortly.
[10:26] <Sciri> agoliveira: No worries...
[10:27] <agoliveira> Sciri: Are you receiving my private message?
[11:21] <Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: no, I still haven't received my menlow system.  I'll phone DHL on monday and ask where it's at and what's happening.
[11:22] <agoliveira> Stardict builds fine on i386 and lpia. Yay!
[11:24] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: with hildon UI?
[11:24] <agoliveira> Yep.
[11:24] <Mithrandir> yay
[11:24] <agoliveira> I just finished
[11:25] <agoliveira> I had to update to version 3.0.0 (the repo has 2.4.8 only)
[11:25] <agoliveira> and disable festival support but it looks fine.
[11:27] <agoliveira> A warning, you will probably puke over the debian files but that's what I could do for now so be kind, I promisse to polish it later :)