[01:23] <dho_ragus> LDAP drives me nuts.  i just can't find any good explanation of it.
[05:00] <jbrouhard> hey PanzerMKZ
[05:01] <PanzerMKZ> yo
[05:01] <jbrouhard> how's things going??
[05:02] <PanzerMKZ> well good if I could get my hands on some big fat scsi drives
[05:02] <jbrouhard> *chuckles*
[05:02] <jbrouhard> i bet
[05:03] <jbrouhard> makes two of us to be honest
[05:03] <PanzerMKZ> I have that prob of having ok boxen. dual 733 with 2.8gig ram.
[05:03] <PanzerMKZ> but only 50gig of drive space
[05:03] <jbrouhard> heh
[05:03] <jbrouhard> Quad Xeon 900Mhz, 2GB RAM
[05:03] <jbrouhard> and only 36GB in 4 9G drives
[05:04] <PanzerMKZ> yea my working 6450 has dual 700/2 with 2g and 4x18's
[05:05] <PanzerMKZ> but I am wondering if you got my email asking how you got deb on that sys
[05:05] <jbrouhard> I got it.. you never got my reply?
[05:05] <jbrouhard> i used boot floppies
[05:05] <jbrouhard> the IDE controller apparently is bad
[05:06] <PanzerMKZ> ok well tomorrow I guess I try to install ubuntu on mine
[05:07] <jbrouhard> good luck
[05:07] <PanzerMKZ> looking into k9copy now
[05:07] <PanzerMKZ> well ain't like it matters
[05:07] <PanzerMKZ> I will scrap the box if I have to
[05:07] <jbrouhard> heh
[05:07] <jbrouhard> I have 2 18GBs right now
[05:07] <jbrouhard> I need bigger drives to cover the 80G drive i have up now
[05:07] <PanzerMKZ> yea
[05:07] <jbrouhard> but i can use the Quad Xeon for a dummy machine while we buidl a SATA-based server
[05:08] <jbrouhard> which is kinda what we're gunning for... if I had parts for it
[05:08] <PanzerMKZ> ugh
[05:08] <PanzerMKZ> I would like a sas server
[05:08] <PanzerMKZ> but yea those are costly
[05:08] <jbrouhard> eh
[05:08] <jbrouhard> SAS is "ok"
[05:08] <PanzerMKZ> just ok?
[05:09] <jbrouhard> Depends on how you set it up i guess
[05:09] <PanzerMKZ> how would you set up?
[05:10] <jbrouhard> single server with a IDE Hard drive
[05:10] <jbrouhard> and several SATA drives spanned/mirrored
[05:10] <jbrouhard> puts a good 4U rackmount to use
[05:10] <PanzerMKZ> yea
[05:10] <PanzerMKZ> but I was thinking one of those 12 bay sas boxen 2u
[05:10] <jbrouhard> Network Attached Storage is also a sweet deal, but it has one disadvantage of:  it fail, you're fucked
[05:11] <PanzerMKZ> I got 4u's coming out everywhere
[05:11] <jbrouhard> That might work
[05:11] <PanzerMKZ> yea
[05:11] <PanzerMKZ> funny thing is I have been scraping the big 4u dual p2 and p3 boxen
[05:11] <jbrouhard> lol
[05:12] <PanzerMKZ> got the procs out of the p3's and the vrm and raid controllers out of them both
[05:12] <PanzerMKZ> but that is bout it
[05:12] <PanzerMKZ> no drives of course
[05:12] <jbrouhard> heh
[05:12] <jbrouhard> what i want to do is set up a SATA RAID server
[05:12] <jbrouhard> but I'm having trouble finding a decent Debian-supported SATA controller
[05:13] <PanzerMKZ> where is here?
[05:13] <jbrouhard> St. Joseph, Missouri.
[05:13] <dthacker> nebraska,  I get some machines surplus from the university med center
[05:13] <dthacker> Omaha, Nebraska
[05:13] <jbrouhard> I can probably find one down south in KC (overland park, KS)
[05:13] <jbrouhard> Omaha ?
[05:13] <jbrouhard> Fuck me
[05:13] <jbrouhard> you're 2 hours from me :)
[05:14] <jbrouhard> I know a lot of guys up there.. one of my tournament buddies works in Gretna, NE.
[05:14] <dthacker> yep, close enough to throw rocks
[05:14] <PanzerMKZ> well I just got my first freebie quad p4 xeon box
[05:14] <jbrouhard> LOL
[05:14] <PanzerMKZ> but the boss called that one
[05:14] <PanzerMKZ> got NeXT systems too
[05:14] <dthacker> shoulda told him it wouldn't boot
[05:14] <PanzerMKZ> it won't
[05:14] <PanzerMKZ> no drives
[05:14] <dthacker> LOL
[05:14] <jbrouhard> lol
[05:15] <jbrouhard> dthacker: if you land any 2U rackmounts that can support ATX boards and SATA drives
[05:15] <jbrouhard> let me know please
[05:15] <dthacker> ok, the med center doesn't free up many rackmounts
[05:15] <PanzerMKZ> check out servercases.com
[05:16] <dthacker> I have way too many antiques
[05:16] <PanzerMKZ> yea I hvae great solution for that
[05:17] <jbrouhard> What do you mean by antiques ?
[05:17] <dthacker> IBM RS/6000 J30, Compaq ProLiant 6000 (thing must be 12U)
[05:17] <jbrouhard> my *buntu team might be looking at getting some machines to put our projects together
[05:17] <PanzerMKZ> well darn if you where close then I would take that 6K off your hands
[05:17] <jbrouhard> my biz is looking to get a pair of servers put together to handle our new workloads
[05:17] <dthacker> IBM is vintage 1995
[05:18] <PanzerMKZ> well I still got those DL360's
[05:18] <jbrouhard> *chuckles*
[05:18] <PanzerMKZ> and yours has not moved yet
[05:18] <dthacker> jbrouhard: the thing is such a power hog
[05:18] <jbrouhard> hehe..
[05:18] <jbrouhard> that IBM has to be huge...
[05:18] <jbrouhard> and requires special power adaptors i bet
[05:18] <dthacker> yep, it
[05:18] <dthacker> it's a micro-channel architecture
[05:19] <jbrouhard> ew
[05:19] <jbrouhard> b*tches to hook up
[05:19] <jbrouhard> Right now, i need to replace the SCSI drives i currently have
[05:19] <jbrouhard> i have 4 9GB drives in my PowerEdge 6450...
[05:19] <jbrouhard> I need to get the total drive space to as close to 80GB as possible
[05:19] <PanzerMKZ> well then replace them
[05:20] <dthacker> that's why I let the other one go to scrap.  I just scrapped out three old RS/6000's because they needed 230V power
[05:20] <dthacker> jrbrouhard: SCSI2? FastWide?
[05:20] <PanzerMKZ> u160 on the 6450
[05:20] <jbrouhard> U160
[05:20] <jbrouhard> like PanzerMKZ said
[05:20] <dthacker> ok
[05:20] <jbrouhard> Why, got possible parts ?
[05:21] <PanzerMKZ> dthacker I got two of them
[05:21] <dthacker> I have to look it up
[05:21] <jbrouhard> I also have an external 10-drive scsi hook-up :P
[05:21] <dthacker> I get all these darn SCSI interfaces mixed up
[05:21] <jbrouhard> i might sell that thing on ebay, but these 2U NetServers didn't go for anything, so I'm trying to find out if I can salvage them
[05:21] <jbrouhard> hehe.. NP, dthacker
[05:21] <PanzerMKZ> dthacker it is sca 80 pin
[05:21] <PanzerMKZ> for the interface
[05:21] <jbrouhard> if you ever want to meet up to exchange things, let me know
[05:22] <jbrouhard> Omaha isn't that much of a drive, and I know my way up to I-80 easy
[05:22] <jbrouhard> (Especially Bellevue, Nebraska...)
[05:22] <dthacker> We're having an installfest Saturday, if you're bored
[05:22] <dthacker> http://www.olug.org
[05:22] <PanzerMKZ> well darn yall
[05:22] <jbrouhard> I teach SHARP seminars saturday.  sorry
[05:22] <jbrouhard> (Sexual Harrassment, Assault and Rape PRevention)
[05:23] <PanzerMKZ> dthacker if you getting rid of scsi drives once jbrouhard picks them I could swing shipping
[05:24] <dthacker> We also have a salvage dealer in town.  http://www.reboottheuser.com (I'm not affiliated, just a satisfied customer)
[05:24] <PanzerMKZ> yea I work for a computer salvage in alabama
[05:27] <dthacker> time to go for now.  chat with you both later.....
[05:28] <PanzerMKZ> later
[05:28] <jbrouhard> later.
[05:28] <jbrouhard> keep in touch, dthacker
[06:04] <CharlieSu> What is the difference between the alternate and server CD?  I'm building a headless server that is a mythtv backend, webserver, DB server and SVN server.   What is best for me?
[06:05] <mathiaz> CharlieSu: you could try the server CD.
[06:06] <CharlieSu> mathiaz: Is that much different than the Alternate CD?
[06:06] <mathiaz> CharlieSu: yes.
[06:06] <CharlieSu> Would you either tell me or point me to a good URL please?  I appretiate it 
[06:07] <mathiaz> CharlieSu: it comes with a specific set of tasks (bind9, LAMP)
[06:07] <mathiaz> CharlieSu: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download
[06:07] <CharlieSu> mathiaz: so if i'm going to customize services is alternate better?  I just don't want X running basically
[06:08] <mathiaz> CharlieSu: the server cd won't install X by default.
[06:08] <CharlieSu> mathiaz: will the alternate?
[06:08] <CharlieSu> i just don't understand what the alternate one is for
[06:09] <ajmitch> it's an alternate way of installing the ubuntu desktop
[06:10] <mathiaz> CharlieSu: in your case, it seems that you wanna install a server.
[06:10] <mathiaz> CharlieSu: so the server cd may be better
[06:11] <CharlieSu> ok thanks..  if i use the server CD there is no reason I can't install desktop functions later on with apt-get on it is there?
[06:11] <CharlieSu> And does it have support for Software Raid1 ?
[06:12] <mathiaz> CharlieSu: You'll be able to install desktop software with apt-get
[06:12] <CharlieSu> thanks mate!
[06:13] <mathiaz> CharlieSu: the server cd has just a different list of packages on the cd.
[06:13] <mathiaz> CharlieSu: once it'S installed, you'll have access to the whole ubuntu repository.
[06:13] <CharlieSu> does it have RAID 1 support?  
[06:13] <CharlieSu> software
[06:14] <mathiaz> CharlieSu: I think that the manual partitionning mode has support for RAID1. Not surethough.
[06:14] <CharlieSu> k thanks dude
[06:16] <ajmitch> it does, but not the 'fakeraid' supplied by a modern BIOS
[06:16] <CharlieSu> ok..  thanks.. i want software raid..  mdstat stuff
[06:16] <ajmitch> that is supported
[07:00] <dizzaniix> i have a ubuntu server 7.04 running bind 9....
[07:00] <dizzaniix> when i ping by hostname...to a domain that is being handled by the bind9 box its slow
[07:00] <dizzaniix> when i ping by ip  its fast and normal
[07:00] <dizzaniix> any ideas?
[07:01] <dizzaniix> PLUS...i can't ping nor do any lookups from the box itself...i have verified that bind is running
[07:01] <dizzaniix> and i can dig the box and it shows the records etc
[08:51] <dariuskane> EVening all..... anyone awake?
[08:52] <pmjdebruijn> yeah
[08:53] <dariuskane> Heya cool....
[08:54] <dariuskane> Ive installed ubuntu server and trying to manages some of the packages and Ive hit a few snag Im hoping to get some tips on
[08:55] <dariuskane> Ive installed ubuntu on an old pc Ive been using as a server.. no wireless no irda no palm pilot blah blah blah
[08:55] <dariuskane> Im trying to clean up and remove all the junk I dont want and dont need
[08:55] <CuriosCat> Hi all
[08:56] <CuriosCat> So...Ubuntu server does not permit ssh in after a default install?
[08:56] <dariuskane> nope I got stuck with that too.. have to install it
[08:57] <CuriosCat> I thought I selected the ssh option in there somewhere
[08:57] <CuriosCat> Oh well
[08:58] <CuriosCat> Guess I'll have to wait until tomorrow to work on this server :P
[08:58] <dariuskane> I try to remove a few packages like... ppp, wireless tools, irda tools and for some unfathomanble reason it wants to remove all my ubuntu-desktop and ubuntu-standard
[08:58] <dariuskane> just need apt-get install openssh
[08:59] <CuriosCat> yeah -- but I'm not driving to work just to type that one command :)
[08:59] <dariuskane> lol ya well thatd be the only snag.. I jsut had to walk downstairs
[09:00] <CuriosCat> Heh, yeah
[09:00] <CuriosCat> Well, I've traditionally run Fedora on my servers
[09:01] <dariuskane> IVe run slack for the last 10 yrs :P
[09:01] <CuriosCat> they used to be redhat, then we moved to redhat enterprise, then redhat enterprise got ridiculously expensive.
[09:01] <CuriosCat> so I was like...centos or fedora? And I picked fedora just because I don't want to run 10-year-old versions of software with 55,000 custom patches
[09:01] <CuriosCat> (which incidentally used to be my objection to debian. They have two versions: unstable and obsolete)
[09:02] <dariuskane> I tried the new fedora 7.... scary... so bloated like MS
[09:02] <CuriosCat> yeah, it is bloated.
[09:02] <CuriosCat> I started running Ubuntu on my two Linux workstations a while back
[09:02] <CuriosCat> the 6.06 LTS release, specifically (whatever codename that had)
[09:03] <CuriosCat> and I was excited when they released a server version, but I haven't deployed it anywhere yet
[09:03] <dariuskane> the new package management systems for deb redhat etc... they arent quite what I expected...some of the stuff makes no sense at all
[09:03] <CuriosCat> needed a mail server, went to put Fedora 7 on a dell PowerEdge 1850, found out the damn thing only had a CD-ROM drive
[09:03] <CuriosCat> so instead of burning six fedora CDs, I figured I'd give the 7.06 ubuntu-server release a try
[09:04] <CuriosCat> well, yum made rpm a LOT easier to work with
[09:04] <dariuskane> you can install fed 7 from a cd to boot and run the installer and copy all the pkgs from the net like I did
[09:04] <CuriosCat> it's like aptitude for rpms
[09:04] <CuriosCat> I could, but that's also a hassle
[09:04] <CuriosCat> and fedora 7 has another disadvantage: Next year it'll be obsolete with no updates or anything
[09:04] <CuriosCat> that works for me; I like to be on the bleeding edge
[09:05] <dariuskane> ya new version every 6 months is kinda fast
[09:05] <CuriosCat> but for production servers, I'm slowly learning to be conservative
[09:05] <CuriosCat> updating 60 machines every six months is a lot of work. :P
[09:05] <CuriosCat> the current LTS release, however, doesn't feel quite polished enough to me
[09:05] <dariuskane> for users 6 mths is great.. newest and greatest... for corporate not so much... stability first
[09:06] <CuriosCat> I'd like to start moving new servers to ubuntu, but I think I'm going to wait for the next server LTS release
[09:06] <CuriosCat> this one box is 7.06 (which is not LTS), but it was kinda gonna be my trial box for ubuntu-server
[09:06] <CuriosCat> Not being able to log in is a bit annoying, but I guess you could say it's secure out of the box ;)
[09:07] <dariuskane> well kinda like buying a new car and the dealer locks the keys inside and says... see its secure.. nobody can steal it
[09:08] <CuriosCat> My dealer did that, actually.
[09:09] <CuriosCat> but for a different reason
[09:09] <CuriosCat> to show off the (horribly insecure) keypad entry
[09:09] <dariuskane> lol
[09:09] <CuriosCat> (my car has a five-button keypad you can use to unlock it. The code is five digits)
[09:09] <dariuskane> kinda limited posibilities
[09:10] <CuriosCat> by my calculations, that means anyone that can stay by my car long enough to try 3125 combinations will get in.
[09:10] <dariuskane> can numbers be duplicated?
[09:10] <CuriosCat> yes
[09:11] <CuriosCat> they try to claim the keyspace is 10 digits
[09:11] <dariuskane> would be faster then... the wear on the numbers wont be even and could.. with abit of thought narrow the possibilities much faster
[09:11] <CuriosCat> but there's two digits per key, and the system can't distinguish which digit you entered
[09:11] <CuriosCat> that makes it five digits to me.
[09:11] <CuriosCat> that's assuming there's a lot of wear
[09:11] <CuriosCat> most people use keyless entry most of the time, and the keypad rarely if ever
[09:11] <CuriosCat> (most ford owners I know don't even know the combo to the keypad on their own car)
[09:12] <CuriosCat> there's convenience in it though
[09:12] <CuriosCat> e.g. i can go to the beach, deliberately lock my keys in the car and not worry about people stealing them while I'm out swimming
[09:12] <dariuskane> well nothing is foolproof.... if someone is determined enough they can do anything
[09:12] <CuriosCat> Yeah, but a six-digit code or a few more keys on the keypad would've helped considerably :0
[09:13] <CuriosCat> that would've put a brute-force attack beyond feasibility, because the codes have to be entered manually
[09:13] <CuriosCat> I wonder if there's a lockout after X number of incorrect attempts, or at least a delay before you can try again. Knowing the history of automotive security, I doubt it ;)
[09:13] <dariuskane> thatd be too logical :P
[09:14] <dariuskane> but I bet you can pry off the keypad to get to the wires underneath and have a palm run the sequence fast :)
[09:17] <CuriosCat> Sure, but at that point, you might as well bust open a window 
[09:17] <CuriosCat> prying off keypad = forced entry
[09:17] <dariuskane> stranger things have happened
[09:18] <CuriosCat> Oh, not saying it's not possible.
[09:18] <CuriosCat> but then I'd at least get something on the insurance
[09:18] <CuriosCat> heh
[09:18] <dariuskane> looks like Imight have to send ubuntu to the graveyard too....shame its promising
[09:19] <CuriosCat> how come?
[09:20] <dariuskane> its suffering some bloat though not nearly as much as fedora... and some package I want to get rid of I cant
[09:20] <CuriosCat> which package?
[09:21] <dariuskane> like ppp, wireless tools, irda tools... its keeps listing ubuntu-desktop as a dependancy
[09:21] <CuriosCat> on a server, do you need ubuntu-desktop?
[09:22] <dariuskane> technically no... but seeing as much of the effort is in gui tools... and its been pretty stable and quick... and who knows what else that might break
[09:23] <dariuskane> fedora suffered some of the same problems.... I tried to remove wireless tools and it removed half of the gnome desktop and I had to reinstall to continue evaluating
[09:24] <dariuskane> I was hoping to find someone who had worked on the package management to help me sort those dependancy issues out... cause they really dont make sense...
[09:24] <dariuskane> why woudl ubuntu-desktop depend on ppp???
[09:24] <CuriosCat> dependencies are retarded in most packaging systems
[09:24] <CuriosCat> about the only way around that is something like gentoo
[09:25] <CuriosCat> the simple answer is that ubuntu-desktop depends on ppp because the author of that package decided it should
[09:25] <CuriosCat> the reasons may range from lunacy to laziness (e.g. "ubuntu-desktop has a tool that configures PPP, and it would break if the PPP package isn't installed. Instead of fixing the tool, I'll just add a dependency."
[09:25] <dariuskane> and since I have no modem or plans for vpn... theres no reason to have ppp on the server and leaving it there would be leaving a back door open for someone else to bring up a link exposing everything else
[09:26] <CuriosCat> but if you're looking for a distro that doesn't have silliness like that, you'll be looking for a long, long time
[09:26] <dariuskane> kinda why Ive been running slackware for the las 10 yrs and building my own binaries :P
[09:26] <CuriosCat> heh
[09:26] <CuriosCat> slackware has its share, I'm sure
[09:27] <kraut> moin
[09:27] <dariuskane> I found a few that came close
[09:27] <dariuskane> slack... the package management is pretty primitive... so everyone builds from source in most cases :)
[09:28] <dariuskane> linuxfromscratch is an interesting project I might look into
[09:28] <dariuskane> compiling your own complete distro from source... starting from the kernel all the way up
[09:28] <CuriosCat> that's basically what gentoo is
[09:29] <CuriosCat> except it has build scripts to do all the hard work from you
[09:29] <CuriosCat> however, keeping ONE LFS system running is a full-time job
[09:29] <CuriosCat> more than one, not really feasible :P
[09:29] <dariuskane> ya Ive seen abit about gentoo... might look at that too.... but with a basic gentoo install you have a place to start...
[09:29] <CuriosCat> (unless you cheat and rsync them all :)
[09:29] <dariuskane> heh
[09:31] <dariuskane> well my current pet project is the complete reinstall of my own home server with all the latest tools and patches and toys to help take me to the next set in my web develoment and admin stuff.... something I hope to be able to confiure and recommend for small business clients in the future.... so trying to do it right the first time :)
[09:31] <dariuskane> and for it to be right... package management has to be good
[09:33] <CuriosCat> Ah, perfectionism
[09:34] <dariuskane> well as close as I can get and not be swearing and pulling my hair out :)
[09:34] <dariuskane> then again if Id settled for anything less Id be running MS Exchange and SQL servers instead of postfix and mysql :)
[09:47] <ubnuu1> Hi
[10:27] <CuriosCat> I'm running MS Exchange because postfix (or exim, my mta of choice) can't do calendars, address books, task lists and all that other PIM stuff
[10:28] <dariuskane> Theres always an alternative :) even writting your own php webapp :P
[10:36] <qman> I can safely say, from first hand experience, I'll do everything in my power to never be an Exchange admin.
[10:37] <dariuskane> hehe if it werent for games I play online Id never touch windows again with a ten foot pole
[10:37] <qman> same here, honestly
[10:38] <qman> server 2003 isn't all bad, until you try to get it to do something
[10:38] <dariuskane> once I get a proper server setup Im thinking of converting my laptop and then chopping off all the pieces of windowsxp I dont need and run as fast and small and lean as possible for games and say screw it to the rest
[10:39] <qman> it likes to have mysterious problems that are not found in any logs and are completely undocumented
[10:40] <qman> where the solution, straight from Microsoft, is "format the system"
[10:40] <qman> in more, nicer words
[10:40] <dariuskane> oh its documented.... its been sent back to MS marketing so they can sell you their latest courseware on how to run the server :)
[10:41] <qman> I've got the courseware, actually...I'm Microsoft certified for server 2003
[10:41] <dariuskane> see it worked!
[10:41] <dariuskane> heh
[10:41] <qman> if Exchange has a serious problem, the solution is to reformat, plain and simple
[10:42] <qman> no repair instructions or tools
[10:42] <dariuskane> coincidentally enough its the solution for all MS product problems
[10:42] <qman> yes, although this is the first time I've encountered them admitting it
[10:43] <dariuskane> its only an admission if they put it in writting 
[10:43] <qman> it's pretty sad when your own certified professionals would rather use competing software
[10:44] <dariuskane> thats the thing with the axis of evil... they know you have no choice in the end
[10:45] <qman> my long term goal is to get degrees in both microsoft and linux...hopefully it'll get me in the door first
[10:50] <CuriosCat> qman: Well, I'm a little luckier.
[10:50] <CuriosCat> qman: I'm not an Exchange admin.
[10:50] <CuriosCat> I delegated that task to my sysadmin :)
[10:50] <qman> hehe
[10:50] <CuriosCat> There's a lot of things about going into management I don't like, but not having to do the annoying jobs myself is good :)
[10:55] <lcdd> better MTAs can be used as relays to protect the internet from internal exchange servers :)
[11:00] <CuriosCat> and we do that.
[11:00] <qman> one of these days I need to get around to learning postfix...I tried sendmail once, and that didn't turn out so well
[11:01] <CuriosCat> why would you want to torture yourself with sendmail?
[11:01] <dariuskane> sendmail isnt an MTA... its a artform :)
[11:01] <CuriosCat> it's pure garbage
[11:01] <CuriosCat> I mean, sure, sendmail is super-powerful
[11:01] <dariuskane> mostly post modern cubist art :P
[11:02] <qman> heh, I was just getting into linux at the time, and getting in way over my head, as usual
[11:02] <CuriosCat> unfortunately, making sendmail.mc do what you want is probably more complex than writing your own MTA in C.
[11:02] <CuriosCat> heck, making it compile properly isn't even straightforward
[11:02] <CuriosCat> (how many pieces of software do you have whose config files need to be COMPILED)
[11:02] <qman> not many
[11:02] <dariuskane> oh I dont know I manually configure my share of sendmail configure and compiles.. worked out well
[11:03] <CuriosCat> dariuskane: I did my share once. Then came postfix, and later exim.
[11:03] <CuriosCat> I run exim on all my personal stuff now, as well as on several corporate machines.
[11:03] <CuriosCat> never looked back.
[11:03] <qman> a friend was trying to get asterisk set up...I took one look at it, and walked away--too many config files
[11:03] <CuriosCat> heh
[11:04] <CuriosCat> asterisk is a bit confusing to me
[11:04] <dariuskane> sendmail was a challenge..... come see me next week when Im done with the sendmail config :)
[11:04] <CuriosCat> but if you look at the config files, it's at least manageable.
[11:04] <CuriosCat> dariuskane: sendmail is the type of thing that makes me sympathize with people who claim computers are hard to use.
[11:04] <CuriosCat> :P
[11:05] <dariuskane> lol those people never went near a sendmailcf :P
[11:05] <CuriosCat> Wouldn't have mattered.
[11:05] <CuriosCat> I don't think my mom could tell sendmail.cf apart from an ASCII view of bzImage
[11:06] <dariuskane> lol
[11:06] <CuriosCat> (just to pick an example of a computer-illiterate person)
[11:06] <dariuskane> damn it these Klotski puzzles are addicting :P
[11:07] <qman> I've beaten them all once, but for some reason, I can't reproduce most of them
[11:07] <qman> just the first couple
[11:07] <dariuskane> a few of them are real headscratchers
[02:14] <sytner> hello i was wondering if someone could help me with an update problem on ubuntu server 7.04?
[02:15] <coNP> !ask | sytner 
[02:15] <ubotu> sytner: Don't ask to ask a question. Just ask your question :)
[02:16] <sytner> ok sorry its new to me but anyway i have 65 updates waiting to be installed but everytime i click install updates it goes to checking for updates and then back to the updates avaialble screen
[02:37] <ScottK> sytner: Are you updating or upgrading?
[02:38] <ScottK> Updating updates your local package data to know about the upgrades.
[02:38] <ScottK> Upgrading actually installs the upgrades.
[02:43] <sytner> its updating not upgrading
[05:41] <Nafallo> hi!
[05:41] <Nafallo> anyone used to 3ware please?
[05:42] <Nafallo> hi dendrobates :-)
[07:09] <bddebian> Hey folks
[07:10] <bddebian> Could anyone help me with figuring out what to do with all the packages that are failing on postinst trying to connect to mysql on /var/run/mysqld.lock?
[07:14] <sommer> which program is it?
[07:14] <sommer> failing?
[07:14] <bddebian> There are tons
[07:14] <bddebian> simba is 1 example
[07:15] <sommer> is mysql running?
[07:17] <bddebian> Not as far as I can tell.  there is certainly no /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.lock
[07:17] <bddebian> simba for example only deps on mysql-common though
[07:18] <sommer> Do you have a line like: socket          = /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock ; in your /etc/mysql/my.cnf?
[07:18] <bddebian> This is a fresh install of all of these packages
[07:19] <sommer> It may be that mysql is only listening on 127.0.0.1 also.  You might try placing the actual IP in my.cnf.
[07:19] <bddebian> I don't want to fix it for myself, I want to fix all of these broken packages in Universe
[07:19] <sommer> ah...not sure how much help I can be with that.
[07:20] <bddebian> OK, thx
[07:20] <sommer> not a MOTU yet myself
[07:20] <bddebian> Well I'm supposed to be :)
[07:20] <sommer> did you mean to ask that in MOTU?
[07:21] <bddebian> No, I have asked in there and -devel.  I am an MOTU trying to figure out how to fix all of these packages
[07:21] <bddebian> There are at least a dozen bugs filed on LP for this issue
[07:22] <sommer> ah...I'd think you'd need to repackage all the programs that look for that mysqld.lock file in that location.
[07:22] <sommer> or symlink it to the actual socket file.
[07:22] <ScottK> bddebian: Where is the lock file?
[07:22] <ScottK> Does it exist at all at this point?
[07:27] <bddebian> NOpe
[07:27] <tck> by setting the nproc n in /etc/security/limits.conf should ulimit not pick that up straight away?
[07:27] <bddebian> sommer: Do you know if we put it somewhere else?  mysql usually puts it in /etc/mysql.lock but Debian puts it in /var/run/...
[07:28] <ScottK> IIRC mysql needs some manual magic before it runs.  
[07:28] <bddebian> Well it should at least fail gracefully and warn the user I think
[07:28] <ScottK> But I don't admin mysql, so I really have no idea.
[07:28] <sommer> bddebian: It puts a socket file in: /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock
[07:28] <ScottK> Agreed.  I'd think there would be policy on this.
[07:28] <sommer> I'm not sure if it's the same as the lock file though.
[07:29] <ScottK> Not the same.
[07:29] <bddebian>  .sock is what I mean, not .lock, sorry
[07:29] <ScottK> Ah.
[07:29] <sommer> then it looks like it's moved into the mysqld subdirectory.
[07:30] <ScottK> Which is policy-wise the right answer.
[07:30] <sommer> so do you change mysql?  or the other packages?
[07:30] <bddebian> Well /var/run seems like a bad place with initramfs but that's way over my head
[07:31] <ScottK> thr/the
[07:31] <bddebian> What TZ is mathiaz in?
[07:35] <mathiaz> bddebian: hum.. what's the problem exactly with universe packages %
[07:35] <mathiaz> bddebian: ?
[07:36] <mathiaz> bddebian: so I understand correctly, there are package in universe whose postinst try to install something in the mysql database.
[07:37] <mathiaz> bddebian: but they fail because they cannot find the socket for the running mysql daemon.
[07:37] <ScottK> mathiaz: bddebian is probably at $WORK currently, so his attention my be intermittent.
[07:37] <mathiaz> bddebian: correct ?
[07:37] <bddebian> They all get this:
[07:37] <bddebian> ERROR 2002 (HY000): Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock'
[07:37] <bddebian> ScottK: Aye, thx
[07:38] <ScottK> That's in the postinst, right?
[07:39] <Nafallo> bbl, will get of the DC for now
[07:43] <bddebian> ScottK: Aye
[07:54] <sommer> Is it correct that when gutsy is released edgy is no longer support?
[07:54] <ScottK> No
[07:54] <sommer> when does edgy support stop?
[07:55] <sommer> for security updates and what not.
[07:55] <ScottK> IIRC around April 2008
[07:55] <qman> I've got a couple systems still running edgy because I've been too lazy to back up and upgrade
[07:55] <ScottK> If Dapper were not LTS, it'd go away ~Gutsy release.
[07:55] <ScottK> But since it is, it won't.
[07:56] <sommer> ya I figured Dapper'd stay around, but wasn't sure about edgy.
[07:56] <sommer> thanks ScottK.
[07:56] <bddebian> mathiaz: Any thoughts?
[07:58] <mralphabet> sommer: support for non LTS is 18 months after release
[07:58] <dantalizing> bbdebian, sorry if this is a stupid question, by you have mysql-server installed?  simba package only has mysql-client as a dep
[07:59] <sommer> mralphabet: ah...thanks.  I was thinking it was based on release for some reason.  
[08:00] <bddebian> dantalizing: That's not a stupid question.  It's a packaging issue.  If it expects mysqld.sock to be there shouldn't it depend on mysql-server?
[08:00] <dantalizing> yes
[08:01] <dantalizing> i just tried to install simba on a vm...thought i had mysql-server already there, but apparently didnt, and of course got the .sock error
[08:01] <mathiaz> bddebian: yes. mysqld.sock is only created when a mysqld is running.
[08:01] <mathiaz> bddebian: so the packages should depend on mysql-server.
[08:02] <ScottK> And a mysql server might not be local, so it might be better to ask a debconf question about where to find the server.
[08:02] <mathiaz> correct. And you probably need to have the right username and password.
[08:02] <bddebian> Of course it begs the question, does it really need mysql-server or should it just fail gracefully and alert the user that they need to configure it
[08:03] <ScottK> Right.  Since the server need not be local...
[08:03] <dantalizing> it looks like the config questions they're asking assume you'll use advanced (manual) config for non-local mysql and just assuming if you do the "automatic" config that you're using a local server
[08:04] <dantalizing> but that is not stated anywhere
[08:04] <mathiaz> bddebian: I guess it depends on the software. Some may require a mysql database to run, other not (ie they have different backends available)
[08:04] <bddebian> There are a ton of packages like this, I find this really surprising
[08:05] <mathiaz> bddebian: the postinst scripts should probably test if mysql.sock is there before asking information about configuring the database.
[08:06] <ScottK> That makes sense.
[08:06] <mathiaz> bddebian: if mysqld is not running, there is no point in trying to configure the database.
[08:06] <bddebian> Exactly :-)
[08:06] <dantalizing> if you abort from simba install and do dpkg-reconfigure, it asks you if you wish to use socket or tcp
[08:06] <mathiaz> bddebian: it should issue a warning.
[08:06] <dantalizing> but apparently does not setup
[08:08] <dantalizing> the simba postinst is just writing the config file, but does no db setup
[08:08] <bddebian> dantalizing: great.. :-)
[08:08] <dantalizing> it asks you for a db name and db user, but expects them to exist
[08:10] <bddebian> Great, I suck at scripting :-(
[08:57] <dariuskane> afternoon folks.....anyone awake to help me sort out the package manager?
[08:58] <ScottK> Maybe.  What's the problem?
[08:58] <dariuskane> heya
[08:59] <dariuskane> well is there a way to remove a package without removing its dependancies?
[09:03] <ScottK> dariuskane: Do you mean packages that depend in it or things it depends on?
[09:04] <dantalizing> apt-get remove
[09:04] <bddebian> dpkg -r doesn't remove dependencies does it?
[09:05] <dariuskane> there are several packages that have bad dependencies written into them.... like the ppp package...when I try and remove it it wants to remove among others the ubuntu-desktop package
[09:06] <ScottK> Ubuntu-desktop is just a metapackage.  It can be safely removed.
[09:07] <ScottK> bddebian: It will fail if there are rdepends installed.
[09:08] <bddebian> Oh aye
[09:08] <ScottK> dariuskane: The answer to your question is No, however.  That would break stuff.  If there are bad depends, file bugs.  Tag them packaging bitesize.
[09:10] <dariuskane> well according to the descriptions ubuntu desktop is used to make sure things get upgraded properly later... looks like if I get rid of it upgrading wont work properly later
[09:14] <ScottK> dariuskane: Yes.  You can remove it now and then re-install it before you dist-upgrade, but this is really off topic for #ubuntu-server.
[09:16] <dariuskane> well I installed ubuntu server yesterday trying to sort this out... this isnt my first distro :)... if I reinstall ubuntu-desktop it will reinstall pp wont it
[09:19] <ScottK> Yes it will.
[09:19] <ScottK> This is, BTW, changed in Gutsy.
[09:19] <ScottK> In Gutsy, metapackages install recommends by default and everything is recommends so you can remove stuff without the metapackage getting removed.
[09:20] <dariuskane> gutsy is 6.08 and feisty is 7.04 correct?
[09:22] <ScottK> 7.10
[09:22] <ScottK> is what Gutsy will be.
[09:22] <dariuskane> Ah ok I installed 7.04
[09:23] <ScottK> That's the newest release.  Gutsy is still being developed.
[09:23] <dariuskane> 7.10 would mean planned for october
[09:23] <ScottK> Yes
[09:38] <dariuskane> well thanks for the help... gutsy doesnt seem to be ready to check out for what I need yet...and fiesty package management is too big of a problem for postinstall suport and security
[09:46] <ScottK> dariuskane: What do you mean postinstall support/security?
[09:55] <dariuskane> if the package manager forces me to leave the ppp wireless irda tools installed because removing them would break the update procedure it leaves open too a number of unecessary security issues
[09:56] <ScottK> dariuskane: Just because it's installed, it doesn't have to run.
[09:56] <dariuskane> Im aware... been running slackware for the last 10 yrs :)
[09:56] <ScottK> Agreed it's not ideal and that's why it was changed, but Ubuntu installs by default with no open ports.
[09:57] <ScottK> So the risk of extra stuff installed is minimal/none.
[09:57] <dariuskane> right now my pet project is to explore other distros to be able to install and reconfigure is such a way as I can recommend it to a small business... so security and ease of maintenance are top of the agenda
[09:57] <ScottK> The Debian package management system is, in some respects, very inflexible, but that inflexibility is often a strength.
[09:57] <ScottK> Right.
[09:58] <ScottK> With a Debian derived distro it's pretty hard to get your system into an unusable configuration unless you just randonly delete stuff.
[10:00] <ScottK> I've never uses Slackware myself, but I think package management, in general, is much more structured/stable/safe in Debian distros than in rpm distros.
[10:00] <dariuskane> slackware package management is kind of primitive :) I susualy stick to compiling my own binaries and kernels... part of its strength
[10:01] <dariuskane> damn my fingers arent cooperating today... damn spelling
[10:03] <dariuskane> compiling binaries isnt very easy to support post install so Im trying to find the right solution I could endorse
[10:03] <bddebian> dantalizing: Are you still around?
[10:04] <dantalizing> i am
[10:04] <bddebian> dantalizing: Do you still have simba source handy?  I'm curious if I should skip the dbc_go simba part too if mysqld.sock doesn't exist
[10:05] <ScottK> dariuskane: I'd suggest that Debian package management isn't ideal, but probably the best there is for non-technical users.
[10:05] <dantalizing> from what i could tell, you can .... then just do dpkg-reconfigure later
[10:05] <dantalizing> it will ask you if you want socket or tcp
[10:06] <mathiaz> dariuskane: you said you were looking into distro to recommend for small buisness.
[10:06] <dariuskane> indeed I did mathiaz
[10:06] <mathiaz> dariuskane: what's missing from ubuntu in your view ?
[10:06] <dantalizing> if you have mysql-server on the same server, you should just set it up first with a username and database
[10:06] <dantalizing> and then go through the simba install
[10:07] <dariuskane> actually in general I like it... its fast.. sufferes much less bloat then fedora 7
[10:07] <bddebian> Thanks dantalizing
[10:07] <dariuskane> its got a large active community and documentation
[10:07] <dantalizing> bddebian: np
[10:08] <dariuskane> but the issue at the moment is the package management and upgrading is restrictive
[10:09] <mathiaz> dariuskane: what do you mean by "upgrading is restrictive ?"
[10:09] <dariuskane> there are other features Im looking for such as selinux support which I havent gotten to yet
[10:09] <mathiaz> dariuskane: gutsy will come with apparmor
[10:10] <dariuskane> mathiaz, well the problem Iw as just talking to ScottK about... some packages installed by default such as ppp wireless and irda tools I want to get rid of but other packages prevent me from removing them
[10:11] <ScottK> It's the metapackage removal problem he's talking about.
[10:11] <mathiaz> !webmin
[10:11] <ubotu> webmin is no longer supported in Debian and Ubuntu. Please avoid using it.
[10:11] <dariuskane> I looked at trustix and webmin
[10:12] <dariuskane> their installer is broken
[10:12] <dariuskane> at least on the machine I ran it on
[10:20] <ScottK> leonel: Have you looked at this http://lwn.net/Alerts/245407/ squirrelmail issue yet?  Is it one we need to get a fix out for?
[10:23] <leonel> ScottK: Yes I've seen and  it's the pgp  plugin  is not included in ubuntu   or  I haven't found it in Ubuntu 
[10:23] <ScottK> Great.  Thanks.
[10:28] <bddebian> Does this look stupid?
[10:28] <bddebian> Setting up simba (0.8.4-4) ...
[10:28] <bddebian> W: Database server does not appear to be running!
[10:28] <bddebian> W: Please try dpkg-reconfigure simba to configure the package.
[10:34] <ScottK> It's better than falling over and dieing.
[10:35] <bddebian> that almost sounds supportive :)  What would be better?
[10:35] <ScottK> The postinst does whatever magic dpkg-reconfigure does.
[10:35] <bddebian> That won't help without a database server installed
[10:39] <mathiaz> What do you think about the following factoid for webmin :
[10:39] <mathiaz> webmin is no longer supported in Debian and Ubuntu. It doesn't play well with the packaging system and tends to overwrite and corrupt configuration files.
[10:39] <mathiaz> ?
[10:39] <sommer> looks good to me.
[10:40] <sommer> maybe add something about using ebox instead?
[10:40] <mathiaz> I can't find ajmitch suggestion from a couple of days ago.
[10:40] <sommer> if that's the recommended alternative.
[10:40] <mathiaz> I've looked throught the log, but can't find it.
[10:41] <ajmitch> mathiaz: hm?
[10:41] <ajmitch> about webmin?
[10:41] <ajmitch> 12:59 < ajmitch> "webmin is not compatible with the way that Ubuntu packages handle configuration files, and is likely to cause unexpected issues with your system"
[10:41] <mathiaz> ajmitch: yeah. that was it.
[10:42] <mathiaz> ajmitch: thanks. I'll update the factoid.
[10:42] <mathiaz> I'll replace the factoid with:
[10:43] <mathiaz> webmin is no longer supported in Debian and Ubuntu. It is not compatible with the way that Ubuntu packages handle configuration files, and is likely to cause unexpected issues with your system
[10:43] <mathiaz> what do you think about ^^ ?
[10:50] <bddebian> Later folks, thanks again mathiaz, dantalizing, and ScottK
[10:50] <mathiaz> !webmin
[10:50] <ubotu> webmin is no longer supported in Debian and Ubuntu. It is not compatible with the way that Ubuntu packages handle configuration files, and is likely to cause unexpected issues with your system