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KopfgeldjaegerGute Nacht (verdammt, schon so spt?)12:37
Riddelldoko_: do you have an opinion on bug 134994?12:40
ubotuLaunchpad bug 134994 in python-central "UVF Exception for python-central" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/13499412:40
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alex-weejdoes Ubuntu have an application naming policy (e.g. for Desktop Entry files)?12:40
Utnubuhi all12:40
cjwatsonalex-weej: delegated to desktop environments which generally do12:41
cjwatsonthe GNOME HIG at least does, I believe12:41
alex-weejcjwatson: ok, but they're not exactly compatible with other upstreams12:41
cjwatsonthat's as may be, but no policy would be12:41
alex-weejcjwatson: i'm thinking we should have one, and patch our packages to be consistent12:41
UtnubuSince compiz is enabled per default in Gutsy or at least everything is ready for it why compizconfig-settings-manager isn't installed per default?12:42
cjwatsonalex-weej: so a different incompatible policy? I'm sure that would be excellent and really justify the work ;-)12:42
alex-weejit seems that some applications are just "Name" ("Qalculate!"), others are "Generic Name" ("Text Editor")12:42
alex-weejand in many cases they're not even the right name12:42
alex-weejfor example we're calling Impress "OpenOffice.org Presentation"12:42
alex-weejwhen it starts up, it's called OpenOffice.org Impress everywhere12:42
alex-weejsame with Text Editor and gedit12:43
alex-weej(that's one upstream not even eating their own dog food)12:43
Riddellalex-weej: I think the gnome packagers edit some names to make them more generic12:43
Riddellwhich is the wrong way to do it in my opinion, it should just use GenericName if that's what they want12:43
alex-weejcjwatson: it would confuse users less. I don't know why we had to rename OpenOffice components.12:43
alex-weejRiddell: (agreed, fwiw)12:43
cjwatsonOpenOffice.org Presentation seems more consistent with http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/2.0/desktop-integration.html#menu-item-names to me12:44
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cjwatsonlikewise Text Editor12:44
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alex-weejcjwatson: but that's not what it's called... it's called Impress - i'd say changing the name of upstream programs isn't doing anyone any favours12:45
cjwatsonyou asked if there was a policy; I answered you ...12:45
alex-weejcjwatson: i'm justifying the need for our own12:45
alex-weejas we are the ones who have to mix everything together and call it a product12:45
mjg59The policy is, where possible, to provide applications with a menu entry along the lines of (specific name) (generic name)12:46
cjwatsonnot to disagree with the fact that we're integrators, but I think where desktop entries are concerned the desktop environment upstreams also have some experience as integrators12:46
mjg59So you get OpenOffice Presentation or Epiphany Web Browser12:46
cjwatsonI think Impress is a particularly poor choice of application to try to make a point about here12:47
alex-weejthe problem is that it's "OpenOffice.org Impress Presentation Editor"12:47
mjg59Not in any real sense, no12:47
cjwatsonOpenOffice.org is a perfectly sufficient brand on its own and Presentation is a lot clearer in the menu entry than Impress12:47
alex-weejcjwatson: so we need to change a OOo strings to read "OpenOffice.org Presentation"12:48
alex-weejand that raises confusion for ex-Windows users12:48
alex-weejwho are used to using Impress for creating "powerpoints"(!)12:48
cjwatsonthat sounds like a lot more work for much less benefit12:48
alex-weejat least it's consistent with itself12:48
cjwatsonthe menu entry is the first point of entry12:49
cjwatsonanyway, bed12:49
mjg59alex-weej: No. The idea that the menu entry is the real name of the program is incorrect.12:49
alex-weejName=OpenOffice.org Impress;GenericName=Presentation Editor12:49
Amaranthgnome-menus doesn't support GenericName :)12:49
alex-weejmjg59: desktop entry files aren't menu entries12:49
mjg59alex-weej: THe menu entry provides enough information for you to know what the program is, and also what specific instance of that class of programs it is12:49
alex-weejmjg59: desktop entry files describe applications12:49
cjwatsonhttp://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ "how it appears in menus, etc."12:50
SwellJoeAnyone have a pointer to an example of running "apt-ftparchive release" that doesn't lead to a zero-sized "Release" entry in the Release file (and an error when using the resulting repo)?12:50
Amaranthalex-weej: desktop entry files tell you what the application is and what it does12:50
mjg59alex-weej: Providing the full title of the application provides no benefit to our users. Nor does changing the name of a program to be the same as its menu entry.12:50
Amaranthalex-weej: so OpenOffice.org Presentation fits fine12:50
Amaranthso does Text Editor12:50
alex-weejbut when I install Foo Text Editor12:50
Amaranthno matter what the application says it is12:50
alex-weejand i have the choice of Text Editor and Foo Text Editor, it just looks stupid12:51
mjg59That's an argument for names which are entirely generic to include a specifier12:51
Amaranthalex-weej: well it would be GNOME Text Editor but since that would end up with you seeing GNOME everywhere it's stripped off12:51
mjg59Not an argument for changing OpenOffice Presentation to OpenOffice Impress12:51
alex-weejAmaranth: no, it's Name=GEdit;GenericName=Text Editor12:51
alex-weejmjg59: right, it's two separate arguments about cleaning up the same messy12:52
Amaranthalex-weej: No it's not12:52
Amaranthit's Name=Text Editor12:52
alex-weejAmaranth: i was speaking hypothetically12:52
Amaranthalex-weej: gnome-menus does not support GenericName12:52
alex-weejthen that's too bad12:53
Amaranthand it's a bit of a compatibility break if you change it now12:53
Amaranthbecause lots of apps would have to be changed12:53
alex-weejwhat are we going to break compatibility with? the current mess?12:53
AmaranthAlthough I wouldn't call it a mess12:53
mjg59This conversation is not aiding Ubuntu development.12:53
AmaranthIt is not12:53
mjg59If you have a concrete proposal, write it up.12:54
Amaranthalex-weej: #gnome-hackers :)12:54
alex-weejEpiphany has a name, "Epiphany". Totem has a name "Totem", Impress has a name "Impress"12:54
mjg59But you're not going to convince the development team by having an argument on IRC at a time when most of them are in bed12:54
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halcyonCorsairhi, can anyone tell me how limits are dealt with in ubuntu/debian? (ie. limits.conf?)01:35
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ion_stevenk, doko: Since you have rebuilt openoffice.org-voikko previously to regenerate dependencies, id like to bring bug #135426 to your attention. Thanks.03:26
ubotuLaunchpad bug 135426 in openoffice.org-voikko "Needs a rebuild" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/13542603:26
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qidanyone know where I can get the wireless tools packages for gutsy 7.10? I'm attempting to follow the suggested workaround here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/50214/comments/4803:30
ubotuLaunchpad bug 50214 in network-manager "can't connect to hidden network" [Undecided,Confirmed] 03:30
StevenKion_: Another rebuild? Oh, duh, OO.o 2.303:31
StevenKion_: I shall do that in the next little while.03:33
ion_openoffice.org-voikko depends on openoffice.org-core (>= 2.3.0~src680m224) and openoffice.org-core is being upgraded from 2.3.0~src680m224-1ubuntu2 to 1:2.3.0~oog680m1-1ubuntu303:33
StevenKion_: openoffice.org-voikko 2.0.1-1build3 uploaded03:36
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ctkroekerdoes the new screen gui support setting up dual monitors set up on dual video cards? i.e. an onboard SIS and a cheapo nvidia...04:42
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moquistCan I get away with using bash for the postinst in a package intended for main?05:08
moquist(instead of sh)05:08
sbalneavmoquist: Don't think so, but, if yo need help converting bashisms to dashisms, I'm your man :)05:11
mneptokmoquist: dash was chosen for sh for a reason. the clock moves in one direction. :)05:12
moquistsbalneav: if [ $(wc -l <<<"$o") != 1 ] ; then05:12
moquistsbalneav: But I may just change several things, so that line may just go away.05:12
sbalneavif [ $(echo "$o" | wc -l) != 1 ] ; then...05:14
moquistsbalneav: I'm making things way too hard on myself. :)05:16
kirklandmneptok: I'm curious of the reason...  is dash statically linked or something?  simpler?  faster?05:18
RAOFSimpler & faster.05:18
sbalneavPosix Compliant.05:19
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Hobbseebah.  i thought i was almost going to get lucky05:36
Hobbseeit looked like the open network was going to connect with the mangler, and ipw39405:37
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sbalneavAnyone got a feisty box handy?06:06
sbalneavcheck this out:06:06
sbalneavstart up dash06:06
sbalneavecho foo bar baz | if read I J K; then echo i: $I; echo j: $J; echo k: $K; fi06:07
nixternalsbalneav: works for me06:11
nixternalbut then again, that is with bash :)06:11
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nixternalworks in dash for me as well06:11
StevenKk: baz06:12
StevenKzsh: segmentation fault (core dumped)  dash06:12
sbalneavgutsy or feisty?06:12
sbalneavIt works for me in gutsy, but not feisty.06:12
sbalneavHence, the reason why I asked if anyone had a handy feisty :)06:12
stdinworks on my feisty box06:12
sbalneavIn bash, or dash?06:13
stdinand dash06:13
sbalneavWe've got 3 people who that segfaults with in dash on feisty.06:13
nixternaloh, what is feisty :p06:13
nixternalI haven't used Feisty since umm, it released :)06:13
sbalneavWhat's out there right now.06:13
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StevenKDoes it segfault in Gutsy?06:15
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sbalneavNot for me at least.06:16
StevenKDoes for me.06:16
StevenKMaybe it's an AMD64 ism06:16
sbalneavIt's something.06:16
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sbalneavIt's weeeeiiiird is what it is :)06:16
StevenKDoesn't segfault in 32 bit.06:16
sbalneavmoquist bumped into it.06:17
=== moquist is running 32 bit and it segfaults for him
moquistI wonder if it's something in my environment.06:18
sbalneavWell, even if it is, segfaulting wouldn't be the preferred way to handle it :)06:19
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StevenKdoko__: Ping, what are your thoughts about bug 134994?07:16
ubotuLaunchpad bug 134994 in python-central "UVF Exception for python-central" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/13499407:16
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lucasa lot of packages (21) fail to build in universe because libxext-dev was dropped from the depends of libx11-dev09:53
lucasthe change hasn't hit debian unstable yet, so there's no fix to pick in debian09:53
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fabbionelucas: it probably means that you need to fix those 21 packages to Build-Dep on libxext-dev if they need that library09:54
lucaswe could fix those 21 packages, and then sync them during the gutsy+1 cycle, or we could re-add that dep for gutsy, and wait until debian fixes its packages (which will happen during the gutsy+1 cycle)09:55
lucasre-adding the dep seems harmless. it was dropped because of #36667609:55
lucas(I talked with julien cristau, and he plans to push that change to unstable, not revert it)09:56
fabbionelucas: well there is a fix in there by breaking a loop in the build dep09:57
fabbionelucas: not that it really matters were we are now09:57
fabbionebut either fix the 21 packages or revert that change is kind of harmless09:58
fabbionei would personally prefer to fix the packages.. clean and proper solution09:58
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seb128Riddell: could we update bluez-gnome (bug #134462)?10:25
ubotuLaunchpad bug 134462 in bluez-gnome "[UVFe]  Please review merge of bluez-gnome (0.13-1) from Debian unstable (main) (was: Can you upgrade bluez-gnome to 0.13 version in gutsy because of the lot of bugfixes and better translations)" [Wishlist,Incomplete]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/13446210:25
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atlas95i want little help in C, how to define a char in C please?10:49
atlas95for exemple: long myVar="blabla"10:50
atlas95don't work10:50
atlas95and char="blabla" don't work too10:50
atlas95i'm newbie10:50
seb128atlas95: that's not the right channel to learn C10:55
atlas95yes sorry :)10:55
atlas95what is the goood?10:56
atlas95Cnewbie is empty10:56
seb128no idea10:56
coNPatlas95: ##c maybe10:56
seb128but you can find C tutorials on google easily10:56
atlas95only 440 users on ##c10:56
atlas95thanks ;)10:57
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Riddellseb128: which of the changes are you wanting to get from the new version?11:07
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seb128Riddell: lot of bug fixes11:08
Riddellseb128: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/8999403/diffstat.txt only lists three, is there a more complete changelog?11:09
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seb128Riddell: I'll ask the people who wanted the update to add details11:11
seb128that's the upstream changelog11:11
Riddellseb128: do you have people testing it?11:12
seb128I was expected getting an approval easily11:13
seb128I'll ask them if they tested it, etc11:13
Riddellseb128: I'm happy to approve it but only if there's people to test it :)11:13
seb128we need a proper UVF exception procedure for main11:13
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Riddellseb128: well, this is it (properly you should subscribe ubuntu-archive, but I'm fine with IRC too if I'm not busy)11:14
Kmosor subscribe ubuntu-release11:15
Kmosfor others (simple users)11:15
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Riddellerr, aye, that's what I ment11:15
Riddelltoo many hats11:15
seb128Riddell: the new gnome-bluez is in Debian for almost a month if you consider that as some testing ;)11:17
Riddellseems like a fair criteria11:18
Riddellseb128: go ahead11:18
seb128Riddell: thanks11:18
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KmosRiddell: bug 13240511:22
ubotuLaunchpad bug 132405 in xterm "Please sync xterm (229-1) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,Incomplete]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/13240511:22
KmosRiddell: i've answered you11:22
tepsipakkiwho is holding the archive hat today?11:24
tepsipakkium, archive _admin_ hat ..11:24
tepsipakkibut 13379311:26
tepsipakkif***, bug 13379311:26
ubotuLaunchpad bug 133793 in openoffice.org-voikko "Please sync openoffice.org-voikko from Debian" [Medium,Incomplete]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/13379311:26
Riddelltepsipakki: seb12811:26
tepsipakkiRiddell: thanks11:26
tepsipakkiseb128: ^^11:26
seb128tepsipakki: "Incomplete", doesn't look good for you11:27
=== seb128 clicks on it
RiddellKmos: is xterm.log.html a changelog?11:27
tepsipakkiseb128: right, I can change that :)11:27
RiddellKmos: yes, it seems to be, please include the latest changes entry in the bug11:27
seb128tepsipakki: I'll do the sync11:28
Riddellbryce: do you have an opinion on bug 132405?11:28
ubotuLaunchpad bug 132405 in xterm "Please sync xterm (229-1) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,Incomplete]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/13240511:28
tepsipakkiseb128: excellent, thanks11:28
KmosRiddell: the xterm doesn't have any changelog11:29
RiddellKmos: so what is xterm.log.html?11:30
KmosRiddell: i found another bug on LP about xterm that will fix with 229-1, i've commented there11:30
KmosRiddell: hmm.. let's check that11:30
RiddellKmos: err, it removes the .desktop file?  how is someone ment to run it then?11:32
tepsipakkithose were added upstream not too long ago11:33
seb128xterm .desktop?11:33
seb128those need to use a NoDisplay=true11:33
tepsipakkidamnit, I can't type today..11:33
Riddellseb128: why?11:33
seb128because they are not nice creating a system tools category on the default desktop11:33
tepsipakkiseb128: they were removed by debian11:34
seb128Riddell: because we install xterm for whatever reason and it's not nice to have 3 terminal emulator in the default installation11:34
Riddellseb128: if it's a problem having it in the default desktop, why not remove it from the seed?11:34
seb128Riddell: I except we have it by default because it's part of the basic debug tools11:34
seb128like the debug login is running Xorg with an xterm11:35
KmosRiddell: done11:35
\shRiddell, you don't want to remove xterm from the seeds..xterm is default and should be installed by default11:35
Riddell\sh: is default for what?11:37
cjwatsonxterm is used by the failsafe session11:37
cjwatsonoh, seb said that11:37
cjwatsonI think moving it to Accessories would be better than removing it, though11:38
\shRiddell, default for every X installation I know, and it shouldn't be removed from the default install of Ubuntu...and the facts from seb and cjwatson, which are important too11:38
cjwatsongnome-terminal lives there (as does pterm, though that's incidental :-))11:38
seb128cjwatson: we would have gnome-terminal, xterm, uxterm there11:38
cjwatsonseb128: yes11:38
seb128cjwatson: that start being a bit much terminal emulators wise to my taste11:38
iwjion_: Hmm.  In theory, yes, triggers could improve that.  But the structure of the way the initramfs's are added and removed would have to be changed and I think we may be a bit late in the release cycle for that change.11:39
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Kmosanyone wants to sync bzr-gtk ? v0.90.0 from debian is out11:42
Kmosgutsy has 0.18.011:42
cjwatsonnot until bzr 0.90 is also in gutsy11:43
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cjwatsonand I think we should possibly wait for a non-release-candidate there11:43
Riddell"adapt xterm.menu to the new menu structure" do we use the new menu structure?11:45
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KmosRiddell: nop11:47
Riddellso that should probably be changed for any sync?11:49
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KmosRiddell: but it still works in gutsy.. even with new menu structure11:50
Kmosin the new package11:50
Riddellok, magic11:50
geserRiddell: doesn't this only affect the Debian menu which Ubuntu doesn't use?11:50
tepsipakkiI bet there are other packages in gutsy already which have made that change11:51
cjwatsonKmos: you say "fixes many bugs" but the changelog lists two changes. What is your definition of "many"?11:51
Kmostepsipakki: yep, a lot of them11:51
Kmoscjwatson: you check the changelog from xterm ?11:51
cjwatsonKmos: yes11:51
Kmoscjwatson: i'm refering to them also11:51
cjwatsonthe upstream changelog is what I'm talking about11:52
cjwatson* override locale in minstall.sh; change in patch #226 does not work in UTF-8 locale (report by Zdenek Sekera).11:52
cjwatson* undo an incorrect fix for a memory leak in (Debian #435858).11:52
cjwatsonthat's not "many bugs"11:52
ubotuDebian bug 435858 in xterm "xterm: crashes on non-existent wide bold font" [Normal,Fixed]  http://bugs.debian.org/43585811:52
Kmoscjwatson: open http://invisible-island.net/xterm/xterm.log.html11:52
Kmosand click on patch #226 and #20911:52
cjwatsonstop telling me to do that. I already did.11:52
tepsipakkiKmos: those are only links to previous releases11:53
cjwatsonwhy are the contents of patches #226 and #209 relevant? we already have those11:53
cjwatsonthe changelog is indicating that it fixes problems in those patches11:53
cjwatsonwe already have everything up to patch #22811:53
Kmoscjwatson: and two LP bugs..11:54
cjwatsonthis is still not "many". you were exaggerating the importance and I'm calling you on it.11:54
Kmoscjwatson: i understand.. but english in not my primary language :) many.. a few ones =)11:55
Kmostwo =)11:55
cjwatsonah, that defence11:55
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cjwatsonI assume you will know in future and not exaggerate two-change upstream releases using the word "many" then?11:55
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cjwatsonthe default behaviour after UVF is not to accept new upstream releases11:56
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Kmoscjwatson: yes i know.. I just won't ask for any =) I've already told hobbsee11:57
Kmosthat's better for ubuntu, lol11:57
cjwatsonbut you just did ask11:58
cjwatsonthough admittedly that bug dates from before UVF11:58
Kmosyeah, it's 2007-08-1411:58
Kmosbut I've done all procedures like UVFe11:59
Kmoslike i've done for rdiff-backup that's approved yesterday11:59
Kmosbug 12957212:02
ubotuLaunchpad bug 129572 in powertop "Please sync powertop (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,Incomplete]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/12957212:02
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Kmosthis one stopped after first ack from hobbsee12:02
Kmosdays agoo12:02
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Kmosseb128: thx for the sync12:37
seb128Kmos: you're welcome12:38
sorencjwatson: Is the installation-guide kept in svn or bzr or something somewhere?12:39
sorencjwatson: Or do you just use the debian svn and apply a patch each time?12:43
cjwatsonsoren: the latter12:44
sorencjwatson: Alright. Thanks.12:45
cjwatsonit's just a source package at the moment. if I ever manage to get a bzr import of it then I'll move to that12:45
cjwatsonoh, hey, what do you know12:45
sorencjwatson: https://code.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/installation-guide/trunk12:45
cjwatsonyeah, I just found that too :)12:45
cjwatsonI'll migrate to that at some point then, but please let me do it as I have all the history12:45
sorenSure, sure.12:46
sorencjwatson: You wouldn't happen to know if there's a PDF version of it somewhere, would you?12:47
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dokoRiddell: looks ok to me12:52
Riddelldoko: thanks12:54
ograiwj, would you mind to take a look at the libxml++2.6 MIR to unblock gobby (was added as new dep in the latest release)12:55
iwjogra: Sure.12:55
ograthanks :)12:55
cjwatsonsoren: yes, in installation-guide-$ARCH.deb12:58
sorencjwatson: Oh, so it is!12:59
sorenI thought it needed not-quite-free stuff to build the pdf's.12:59
=== ogra is irritated ...
StevenKdoko: Ping, what are your thoughts about bug 134994?01:02
ubotuLaunchpad bug 134994 in python-central "UVF Exception for python-central" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/13499401:02
sorenhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/BuildingDocumentation/PDF suggests this is the case..01:03
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MinuteElectronHi may I make a suggestion?01:12
somerville32MinuteElectron: Sure.01:13
MinuteElectronOn the installer can you make it so when you press up on the top option of the main menu it goes to the bottom. It seams trivial but I install often and it gets rather tedious and I nearly always make the mistake.01:14
cjwatsoncould you file a bug on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cdebconf/+filebug for that, please?01:14
cjwatsonsounds reasonable to me01:14
cjwatsonthough it would mean that you couldn't just hold down up-arrow for a while to get to the top01:15
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MinuteElectronthank you01:18
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cjwatsonsoren: we clearly manage it ;-)01:19
iwjWe're conducting a campaign against .la files, right ?01:20
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ograthats what they all say ...01:34
ChipzzKmos: hobbsee already told you quite extensively why she didn't reply on your powertop sync request any more yesterday; why do you bring it up again then?01:37
KmosChipzz: because if she doesn't want, maybe someone else want to.01:37
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ChipzzKmos: also, sync requests are NOT about finding as many packages as possible that have a new version in debian or upstream, and requesting a sync request for all of them just for the sake of it01:38
Chipzzand you have also been told that01:38
KmosChipzz: yeah.. but as you can see isn't about to find many packages possible. it's about credibility01:39
Chipzzalmost sounds like you don't get what a sync request is01:39
KmosChipzz: but for that, I won't ask for any syncs anymore01:39
Kmosjust want the ones i've waiting done for gutsy01:39
Kmoslike the powertop that still an RC in gutsy01:39
ChipzzKmos: maybe your credibility is related to the number and quality of the sync requests you file?01:40
Kmos1.8 is the final01:40
KmosChipzz: don't think so.. you can check all of them =)01:40
Kmosit's about the number01:40
Kmosquantity :)01:40
Chipzza sync request is about synchronizing it because it actually has a concrete use; ie it fixes one (or more) bugs we care about01:41
Chipzzand care about means "not just some random bug"01:42
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Kmosyeah, I know01:42
Chipzzthe idea is to actually get packages stable in preparation for a release; that means, no new features, and be carefull about what bugs they fix01:43
Chipzzbecause every change can introduce a new bug01:43
Chipzzso the bugfix for a minor bug may very well introduce one or more more severe bugs01:43
FujitsuThis is what cherrypicking is for.01:44
KmosChipzz: yep, I know that.. I'm also a developer :)01:46
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ChipzzKmos: then *why* do you show so little intelligence and common sense?01:47
Chipzzfor example in filing these sync requests?01:47
ChipzzI'm guessing that's why people get mad at you01:47
KmosChipzz: have you checked the sync requests i asked for ?01:47
KmosChipzz: maybe it's that, and that's because I won't file sync requests01:48
ChipzzKmos: quite frankly I don't need to if I see Hobbsee's comments01:48
KmosChipzz: if you think that, that's your problem01:49
Kmos*like that01:49
ChipzzKmos: my guess is people get mad at you because despite the fact that they've explained several things to you several times, you just don't seem to get the general idea and spirit behind it01:49
ChipzzKmos: I'm not calling you dumb, I'm just saying that you should try to understand why what you're doing is wrong, and learn from that01:50
Chipzzbut the last part (learning from that) is what's missing apparently, and that's why people get mad at you01:51
KmosI always be criticized from whatever I do, so I choose not to contribute directly to ubuntu, even file sync requests01:51
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Kmosi don't want hobbsee to be mad, and motu people.. they're the best, so do their job.. i'll participe from now on getdeb.net01:51
ChipzzKmos: no you won't; but have you understood what I'm trying to say?01:52
infinityKmos: The -release team works as a team, we back each other up.  If one of us turns down a UVF exception, please don't make an end-run around them and ask another.01:52
Kmoswith my packages and with people really needs01:52
KmosChipzz: yes.01:52
infinityKmos: We're not divorced parents you can play off each other to satisfy your whims.  Hobbsee's decision is just as final as anyone else's on the team.01:52
KmosI think another one has sent an e-mail to devel mailing list about me..01:53
ChipzzKmos: what you seem to lack is not intelligence, just an understanding about what things like a release process are01:53
Kmosinfinity: so what's hobbsee decision ?01:53
infinityKmos: In my scrollback, I saw mention of her turning down one of your requests, and you asking someone else instead "in case they might want it".  Don't do that.01:53
infinityKmos: It just wastes our time to have multiple team members going over the same requests over and over again until you get your desired result.01:54
Kmosinfinity: she told me she won't process my requests. so I need someone else to do it01:54
Chipzzinfinity: 13:37 < Chipzz> Kmos: hobbsee already told you quite extensively why she didn't reply on your powertop sync request any more yesterday; why do you bring it up again then?01:54
Chipzzinfinity: ;)01:54
Kmosthese are my final requests, i won't ask for more anymore01:54
Chipzzat leet-o-clock even :)01:54
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mantiena-baltix_who is responsible for kernel bugs ? there is big problem because 7.04 (feisty) CD doesn't  start on lots of new laptops. based on Intel santarosa platform02:32
mantiena-baltix_look at bug #126653 for example02:32
ubotuLaunchpad bug 126653 in linux-source-2.6.20 "Feisty kernel cannot detect CD/DVD (SCSI based)" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/12665302:32
StevenKWhy do I have this feeling it's SATA based, as opposed to SCSI?02:33
cjwatsonmantiena-baltix_: the kernel team. #ubuntu-kernel02:33
mantiena-baltix_it's interesting, that older and newer Ubuntu versions, also. it seems, feisty kernels (from Ubuntu 7.04 beta) detects cdrom fine02:33
mantiena-baltix_cjwatson, thanks, should I repeat my post there ?02:34
mantiena-baltix_StevenK, I also think, that it's SATA :)02:34
cjwatsonmantiena-baltix_: it'd be more useful than here, at any rate02:36
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=== Hobbsee waves
=== Hobbsee acts like a heron
=== thom puts a net over his fish pond
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Hobbseeoops, sabdfl flooded due to the waves.02:43
=== Hobbsee eats the fish through the fishnet
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xxxxx1hey sabdfl02:43
Hobbseesabdfl: when waves are made, please dont flood, or drown.  it's really quite inconvenient.02:44
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somerville328.04 seems like such a "mature" number, <g>02:49
highvoltagesomerville32: it's almost 9.0! we can compete with old red hat versions!02:50
=== somerville32 cheers.
=== Hobbsee wonders how people come up with such names, and whether they check things like the urban dictionary first.
somerville32I was hoping for Hungry Hippo myself02:51
\shas jdub wrote...it's pr0n ,-)02:52
StevenKThe urban dictionary is ... not exactly authoritative.02:52
HobbseeStevenK: that was a example02:53
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ograsomerville32, seems everybody was02:53
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=== ogra reads that a lot over the channels ...
StevenKHobbsee: Point.02:54
\shogra: what's the best german translation for Hardy Heron, abgehrteter Reiher oder Khner Reiher?02:55
somerville32The Urban Dictionary tells me that Heron is slang for a number of things02:55
ogra\sh, robuster reihern02:56
ogra-n indeed :)02:56
Hobbseethe first thing i think of is the hardy heroin users that develop the release.02:56
somerville32Is Ubuntu 8.04 "a girl that club hops every thursday , friday and saturday night to see how many numbers she can get or how many guys she can make out with or how many free drinks she can get per night"?02:56
ograHobbsee, no, its handy heroin we provide to our ubuntu addicts ;)02:56
\shogra, we should file a bug at dict.leo.org ,-) robust is not known...but zhlebig :)02:57
Hobbseeogra: ah right.02:57
Hobbseesomerville32: maliciously so, so goes and trashes any windows installs at the same time.02:57
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Hobbseeogra: there's the potential for so many drug jokes to be made here.  what fun.02:59
cjwatsonsomerville32: and once upon a time 5.10 seemed so unimaginably far away ...02:59
mjg59cjwatson: Once upon a time 4.10 seemed implausible02:59
Hobbseecjwatson: yes, we know you're old :)02:59
=== Hobbsee ducks
cjwatsonHobbsee: heh03:00
=== StevenK tries to bend dch to his will.
StevenKIt might just be easier to prepend a heredoc, sigh03:00
Hobbseecjwatson: oh wait.  i shouldnt say that kind of thing around you, because you could bash me up.03:01
=== Hobbsee blames mjg59 of being old instead
cjwatsoner. could but won't03:01
Hobbseecjwatson: oh good.  so i'm safe!03:01
mjg59Hobbsee: Colin's got a good 6 months of Ubuntu time over me03:01
cjwatsonmjg59 is a sprightly youngster03:01
cjwatsonmjg59: is that actually true? you were around in Oxford03:02
=== Hobbsee can accuse cjwatson of being old then :P
mjg59"So this guy who's been to space just rang me up and offered me a job"03:02
StevenKWhat does that make me then, having joined during Dapper?03:02
mjg59cjwatson: Oh, hm. 4 months? When did you join?03:02
cjwatsonmjg59: spoke to Mark in Feb, actually joined in May03:02
\shStevenK, a young padavan ,-)03:02
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mjg59cjwatson: Ah, that would explain it. 3 months or so, then.03:03
thomyou're both sprightly youngsters, really ;-)03:03
cjwatsonmaybe March, not sure03:03
StevenK\sh: You need to learn to spell. Or something.03:03
=== Hobbsee pinches thom's walking stick, and eats his fish.
thomget orf my laaaand!03:03
Hobbseebah.  crazy old man :P03:04
\shStevenK, padavan -> a young jedi knight03:04
Hobbseethom: just dont tell me all your money is in the freezer.03:04
\shStevenK, oh sorry...s/v/w/03:04
StevenK\sh: It's a padawan, surely?03:04
StevenKthom: I used to be sprightlier. :-(03:05
=== Hobbsee ponders what to cook for dinner.
=== Hobbsee cooks \sh for dinner.
Hobbseethat'll do.03:07
\shHobbsee, no taste...believe me :)03:08
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StevenKHurray for sponge!03:13
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=== lamont grumbles at the ubuntu-users ml
Hobbseelamont: why?03:18
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Hobbseehiya mdz_03:18
seb128lamont: what were you saying about shared-mime-info?03:18
lamontit looks like I'm not subscribed as 'lamont.jones@u.c', so my first message evah to the ml was blocked for moderation03:18
lamontseb128: that libxml2 sucks03:18
seb128lamont: in what way? ;)03:18
lamontseb128: root cause came down to zlib1g diverting to 64-bit, pointer-returning functions but not defining them --> segv in libxml2 --> update-mime-info SEGV during install of shared-mime-info03:19
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seb128lamont: oh, not good03:20
lamontof course, it'd be nice if libgnomevfs2-common was _removable_ in that situation, instead of barfing in postrm03:20
lamontseb128: yeah - I'm going to hack over sbuild on the ia64 buildd to ftbfs the package in those cases.03:20
lamontHobbsee: does that mean that you're a moderator for u-users?03:21
lamontmorning mdz_03:21
Hobbseelamont: i am not.  i am for a few other lists, but not that one.03:21
iwjI have a MIR which I want to approve except that the -dev .deb contains a .la file.  Is that an approval-critical bug ?03:21
Hobbsee(kubuntu-devel, kubuntu-users, ubuntu-universe-sponsors, ubuntu-devel)03:21
iwj(I don't know what a .la is but I remember some people whose identities I've forgotten telling me they were EBW somehow and we were trying to get rid of them.)03:22
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Riddelliwj: we have loads of libraries with .la files03:22
iwjRiddell: So we don't mind a new one ?03:22
seb128iwj: .la are fine, they are used for static builds (though not required on linux nowadays)03:22
Riddelliwj: can't imagine so03:22
iwjOK, I must have misunderstood.03:23
siretartiwj: speaking of MIRs, do you have news on the cryptsetup MIR?03:23
seb128iwj: we try to get ride of them since they often bring issues (like when you drop a depends from a lib you need to rebuild all the packages shipping a .la to reflect that)03:23
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lamontiwj: .la files are how you wind up with horribly long build-depends lists that don't need to be that way other than for .la files.03:24
iwjseb128: Right.03:24
lamontnothing in the gnome universe should have them.03:24
iwjBut is it an approval-critical bug if it does ?03:24
lamontand seb128 said it better03:24
seb128iwj: no, shipping them is not a bug03:25
seb128we just try to get ride of them to make things easier03:25
iwjsiretart: No, I don't have any news but let me see the status.  (In general, feel free to chase me for MIRs.)03:25
iwjseb128: OK03:25
StevenKDamn it, find, *why* does -ctime have to be * 24 hours03:25
lamontwell, if the package changes at a later date to not use a lib that it does today, and delivered a .la file, then that droppage will require a rebuild of everything that build-depends that package and delivers a .la file.   recursively03:25
cjwatsonStevenK: does -cmin help?03:25
StevenK*blink* Didn't know that one.03:26
cjwatsonstill a stupid granularity but might be better03:26
iwjsiretart: It's under `reviewed packages that need work' in the queue.  Looking at the review now.03:26
StevenKcjwatson: Indeed, thanks muchly03:26
iwjsiretart: Seems nothing much has changed since my last review.03:27
seb128bah, apt sucks at describing why a package is not installable03:27
siretartogra: I think you have been filing the mir. are you still working on it?03:27
seb128iwj: bug #135519, do you think those bugs could have an apt debug log or something like that?03:28
ubotuLaunchpad bug 135519 in compiz "autopkgtest gutsy compiz amd64: erroneous package!" [High,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/13551903:28
seb128iwj: the bug has been opened on compiz but the issue is libcompizconfig0 not being installable and there is no detail (I think that's a transitional issue, mvo uploaded a new stack with Breaks use today)03:28
iwjseb128: I could probably organise that.  How would I acquire one ?03:28
seb128iwj: probably by setting Debug::pkgProblemResolver to true in the apt configuration03:29
iwjseb128: Right, if it's just a transitional problem feel free to close the bug with `this is fixed now we think'.03:29
seb128iwj: is there a way to determine that the bug is a "package not installable" and do a new try with this one set in this case?03:30
iwjThe tester can't really tell if uninstallability is just transient or not.03:30
iwjI think it would be better just to turn on the debugging in general.03:30
seb128mvo: ^ what do you think?03:30
iwjOr to capture it and suck it out.03:30
iwjI mean, suck it out if the installation fails.03:30
seb128right, that would be nice03:31
mvoiwj: you could use some sort of greylisting, if the install fails, record that and then try again in ~4h (or some other value). if it fails then still, file a bug03:32
seb128mvo: would it be possible to make apt smarter about displaying errors?03:34
seb128it display package is not installable because <list of depends not installable>03:34
seb128but doesn't mention where is the issue in the list of depends03:34
seb128and what prevents it to be installed03:34
mvoseb128: probably03:34
sorenI need a bit of assistance with some licensing stuff. There's a bug about enabling some additional modules in the php5 build. The two modules in question are readline and gmp. readline is GPL, while gmp is LGPL.03:35
seb128you usually have to apt-get install each of them to figure the bug03:35
mvoat least for simple cases03:35
mvosometimes apt does not that itself ;)03:35
sorenIIRC the php license is considered gpl-incompatible, so php5-readline would require an exception from the libreadline copyright holder, correct?03:35
iwjI've c&p the first bit of this irc conversation as bug 135581.03:35
ubotuLaunchpad bug 135581 in autopkgtest "autopkgtest should provide apt debug log" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/13558103:35
sorenWhat about gmp?03:35
seb128iwj: thanks03:36
llllllllllllllllbryce it's me lucky_lucas, I have to add something to the ati / compiz freezing problem03:37
iwjmvo: If you have some idea how I should improve this I'm all ears.03:37
llllllllllllllllI tried compiz on antoher pc with nvidia and it hangs too03:37
iwjmvo: Failing that I'll just make something up ...03:37
superm1_one of the archive admins got a sec?  I needed someone to release an update to an SRU that was release to -proposed a few days ago from the manual queue?03:37
llllllllllllllllseems to be a trouble in  X aiglx or compiz03:37
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seb128superm1_: what do you mean?03:38
superm1_seb128, i got a mail from ubuntu-installer saying the distro release manager has to release them03:38
mvoiwj: the only idea I have is this greylisting, the disadvantage is that you have to carry around the state somewhere03:38
superm1_seb128, it was to feisty-proposed and edgy-proposed03:38
iwjmvo: No, I mean for getting more debug output.03:39
seb128superm1_: your description is not clear. They have been accepted to proposed yet or are you asking for that?03:39
mvollllllllllllllll: what bugnumber is that?03:39
iwjmvo: Greylisting is an answer to transient problems, surely ?03:39
mvoiwj: yes, that is what I mean03:39
seb128mvo: there is 2 things, transient bugs and real bugs not having enough details03:39
iwjThe question seb128 was asking was how to get more detail about the problem.03:40
superm1_seb128, sorry, the SRU was accepted to proposed a few days ago, but there were a few problems encountered with it, so I have a follow up for proposed in the queue right now03:40
llllllllllllllllmvo 13457803:40
seb128superm1_: use launchpad, subscribe ubuntu-sru, wait for approval, etc as described on the wiki03:40
mvoiwj: debug output> pkgProblemResolver=true and  Debug::pkgDepCache::AutoInstall=true03:40
superm1_seb128, its a universe sru03:40
ubotuLaunchpad bug 134578 in xserver-xorg-video-ati "Open source ati driver freeze with compiz" [Undecided,New] 03:40
mvobug  13457803:40
mvobug # 13457803:40
mvobug #13457803:40
seb128superm1_: so ask on #ubuntu-motu was the procedure is03:40
iwjmvo: And that'll go where ?  Can I get it to go a separate file ?03:41
mvoseb128: yes, missed that03:41
superm1_seb128, as previously, the point in the procedure is that the archive admin needs to release it at this point, per the wiki03:41
mvoiwj: stderr, I could look into a redirect thing if you want03:41
seb128superm1_: so open a bug on launchpad and subscribe the ubuntu-archive team and wait for a team member to process it03:41
superm1_okay seb128 .  Thanks03:41
seb128you're welcome03:42
iwjIf it could be sent into a file and there was a way to tell whether to dump the file into the log, that would be very nice.03:42
seb128superm1_: I looked at ubuntu-archive bugs this morning and there was nothing about that03:42
iwjI mean, the exit status or something would have to say whether it was a dependency problem.03:42
superm1_seb128, previously Riddell had just acked it without looking for a bug about it, so it wasn't apparent that i needed to file a bug to make it happen.03:42
mvoiwj: I made a note about this, I check it out03:43
seb128superm1_: well, pings on IRC don't scale03:43
seb128superm1_: that's not a replacement for a bug ;)03:43
=== superm1_ nods
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iwjmvo: Thanks.03:44
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iwjmvo: (I tried  apt-get -o pkgProblemResolver=true install some stuff  and it didn't seem to produce any output.  Obviously I'm doing it wrong.)03:45
iwjAh, -o Debug::pkgProblemResolver=true03:46
ograsiretart, well, i was pondering encrypted swap by default for ltsp, but there has beeen no further work on it due to time constraints03:46
mvoiwj: apt-get install 4g8 -o Debug::pkgDepCache::AutoInstall=true -o pkgProblemResolver=true03:46
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lamontmvo: 4g8 has install issues, or it's just a conveniently short package name?03:47
Riddellseb128, superm1: subscribe motu-sru03:47
iwjThat seems very good actually.03:48
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seb128iwj: Debug::pkgProblemResolver=true03:48
iwjI'll just add that option to all of my apt settings.03:48
\shhmm...I made a bug fix today for 4g803:48
iwjDebug::pkgProblemResolver=true I mean.03:48
mvolamont: its a) short b) top in the synaptic list where I usually look for good examples. I also like "2vcard" and "3ddesktop" :)03:48
iwjogra: libxml++2.6 approved BTW03:48
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lamontmvo: it's also what my management would consider malware.03:49
iwjmvo: Thanks, I think I don't need anything more from you about this.03:49
lamontand yes, I packaged it03:49
ograiwj, yay, pkern will love you :)03:49
ogra(and edubuntu too :))03:49
mvolamont: I never actually looked what it is, I noticed that you maintain it :)03:49
mvoiwj: cool, even better. thanks03:49
lamontmvo: you feed it a pair of IPs and MACs.  it inserts you in the middle03:49
StevenKlamont: That's *EVIL*03:50
mvolamont: that is useful!03:50
lamontnetwork problem diagnosis made simpler03:50
lamontarp cache poisoning for the win03:50
ion_That program would probably be illegal in Germany. :-)03:50
StevenKIt's a MITM attack, used for diagnosis. Ouch.03:50
lamontOTOH, I haven't actually made it _work_ yet...03:50
cjwatsonas usual, there's sometimes a fine line between malware and useful sysadmin tools03:50
\shion_, whaaaa03:50
lamontcjwatson: exactly03:50
lamontmind you, telnet and gcc both meet the definition of 'malware' as written in the company policy here...03:51
\shion_, I have it on my laptop03:51
StevenKlamont: Ouch.03:51
StevenKlamont: Even cat? :-P03:51
lamont"any software that could be used to evaluate vulnerabilities in another computer"03:51
lamontso I guess a web browser would count too03:51
lamontStevenK: certainly03:52
ion_sh: Youre a criminal. ;-)03:52
StevenKnmap, most definitely03:52
ion_sh: Dont tell me you also have nmap!03:52
=== lamont maintains nmap
=== StevenK high fives ion_
\shion_, I need nmap for our datacenter security ,-)03:52
StevenKlamont: Oh, so you do. :-)03:52
lamontStevenK: when I pointed out the stupidity of the policy, they granted me an exception from it.03:53
lamontthey much prefer possession rules to intent-based rules03:53
StevenK"I can't do my work, since any web browswer is against company policy."03:53
lamontto which their response is of course, that they'll determine on a case-by-case basis what is and is not malware.03:54
lamontwhich just means that if they want to fire someone, that's one more excuse they can use...03:55
=== lamont stops venting about stupid rules, gets back to work
=== StevenK keeps watching builds
ion_sh: Judging from your initial response, you werent familiar with the law. If thats true, please take a look at http://www.google.com/search?q=germany+law+nmap03:56
siretartogra: too bad. we were discussing installation on crypted filesystems in sevilla, and that time we expected cryptsetup to be in main for gutsy so that we can have partman-crypto tested in the installer :/03:56
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\shion_, I know everything about this law :)03:57
ion_sh: Alright, sorry then.03:57
\shion_, I'm one of those stupids who have to live with those stupid politicians ;)03:57
ograsiretart, feel free to fix it ... i'm way to busy with other stuff03:57
ograyou have my full support to get it to main :)03:58
siretartuntil when are MIRs processed?03:58
StevenKxfish.c:183: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function 'strncpy'03:58
=== StevenK sobs.
ograsiretart, no idea, beta freeze ?03:59
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=== StevenK throws 19 builds at the archive.
pkernogra: libxml++2.6's main inclusion was approved, so Gobby could go in. But I would need a UVF exception for bug #114023 (sobby)...04:04
ograpkern, yeah, lots and lots of thganks for doing the MIR :)04:05
ograwhy does sobby need an UVF ?04:05
pkernogra: I guess I would also need one for sobby to go in?04:05
=== Hobbsee curses the lack of active freenode staffers.
ogras/UVF/UVFe/ ?04:05
Hobbseeoh, wait, there's 1.04:05
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pkernogra: New configuration file option to support session files in it (only change upstream). Canonical sysadmins requested that some time ago. (OTOH they used an unsupported broken init script which caused the data loss...)04:06
iwjsiretart: You might consult the release team about whether this needs or gets a freeze exception.04:07
iwjsiretart: If you can tidy up the package and the MIR report then personally I don't see why we shouldn't promote the package.04:07
cjwatsoncryptsetup? it's late, but I'd be inclined to take it04:08
cjwatsonthe relevant feature is partman crypto support, which we've been putting off forever04:09
pkernogra: Well, it would be a sync from Debian w/o an Ubuntu change.04:09
cjwatsoncryptsetup can clearly be promoted without that though, and my inclination would be to shove in partman-crypto ...04:09
siretartI'm too busy this week for this. I'd need to defer that until next week04:09
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ogracjwatson, iirc there was a lot of work to do for usplash integration (but thats some time ago, i didnt look since)04:09
siretartIt would be really great if someone else could take over it, if it makes sense at all to work on it for gutsy04:09
cjwatsonI haven't looked at it04:09
Hobbseeubotu: ping04:10
cjwatsonbut I would really like cryptsetup to move on rather than continually stalling because it isn't the right time in the release process or whatever04:10
siretartogra: seveas told me at sevilla that he had work for it in the pipe in usplash. ATM it just tells usplash to exit when prompting for a password04:10
cjwatsonSeveas hasn't done anything to usplash since UDS AFAIK04:10
siretartoh :(04:10
ograsiretart, yeah, thats not nice04:10
ubotuhost not found04:11
pkernPoor ubotu.04:11
cjwatsonubotu: learn to check your arguments04:11
Hobbseecjwatson: some morons just bot attacked #ubuntu again, so ubotu fell off the planet.04:11
cjwatsonsure, I meant that it's clearly just doing "ping ''" or something when told 'ping'04:11
Hobbseeit's just a factoid, i'ts not an actual ping04:12
cjwatsonwouldn't a factoid be "ping is host not found" or similar?04:13
cjwatsonubotu: ping www.ubuntu.com04:13
Hobbseecjwatson: sure, if the <reply> tag isnt used04:13
cjwatsonhmm, apparently not04:13
Hobbsee!no ping is pong04:13
ubotuI'll remember that Hobbsee04:13
ubotuping is pong04:13
Hobbsee!no ping is <reply> pong04:13
cjwatsonah, I see04:13
pkernDoesn't ubotu reply on "bug #NNNNNN" requests stated by anyone in the channel?04:14
cjwatsonpkern: yes04:14
pkerncjwatson: I did one and it didn't answer but a long time later "host not found".04:14
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ograbug 104:14
ubotuLaunchpad bug 1 in ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/104:14
Hobbseepkern: yes, the bot sometimes lags under excessive load04:14
Hobbsee!no ping is <reply> pong04:14
ubotuI'll remember that Hobbsee04:14
pkernbug #12165304:14
ubotuLaunchpad bug 121653 in linux-source-2.6.22 "[gutsy]  Suspend to Ram does not work on Z61m" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/12165304:14
Hobbseecjwatson: there you go, like  ^04:14
pkernYep, now it works. \:04:14
pkernogra: It didn't earlier.04:15
ograit has its days ... :)04:15
Hobbseeyeah, well, it doesnt help when stupid morons try to flood it off freenode.04:15
ograthat as well04:15
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Hobbseeogra: it basically depends on seveas' connection.04:16
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pkernogra: So what I need to do for an UVFe? Just debdiffing the versions and subscribe someone special?04:16
ubotuSorry, I don't know anything about uvfe - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi04:16
ubotuuvf is Upstream Version Freeze.  For an exception, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess#head-9523bc4076ff011324d67cddc97969ec609618d604:16
Hobbsee!uvfe is <alias> uvf04:16
ubotuSorry, I don't know anything about 4g8 - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi04:16
Hobbsee!uvfe is <alias> uvf04:16
ogramvo, ?04:17
Hobbseestupid bot, stop lagging04:17
ogramvo, does your daughter *already* reach the keyboard ?04:17
StevenKRiddell: Thank you for the rubber stamp.04:17
Hobbsee!uvfe is <alias> uvf04:17
pkernHobbsee: So I need a new bug for it. Fine.04:17
Hobbseedamned bot.  replies in one channel, but nto another.04:18
mvoogra: I was just curious if it would do something apt-cache-ish04:18
Hobbseeor aliases are broken04:18
Hobbseemvo: !info 4g8 gutsy(defaults to feisty)04:18
Hobbseemvo: when it's not half dead.04:18
sladencjwatson: gerard moved onto other things after the feature freeze came.  I can enquire how far the partman crypto stuff got.  usplash password asking was one of the issues he mentioned, and there was a second issues somewhere  (aswell as needing the promotion to main)04:18
mvothekorn: "bughelper -p apt -T apt 'E:Dynamic MMap ran out of room,' dup" gives me a error here, is that known?04:19
dholbachmvo: yes, broken since the new LP layout - the API-breaking version will fix it04:19
Hobbseegood morning dholbach04:19
ograpkern, you removed the comment from the gobby MIR in the queue but didnt move the entry to the other section04:19
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pkernogra: It's approved but not promoted?04:19
dholbachmvo: but I'm on a sprint, so I'm not going to break py-lp-bugs and bughelper without being able to test it properly from here04:20
dholbachhi Hobbsee04:20
ograpkern, right04:20
ograpkern, oh, sorry ... my fault04:20
pkernogra: I struggle with Ubuntu's procedures sometimes, but this one should be right I think. (Although net6 and obby should be listed there, too.)04:20
ograthey will be pulled in as deps anyway tough04:21
Hobbseehttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntulooks/+bug/135584 yay, stupid bugs.04:21
ubotuLaunchpad bug 135584 in ubuntulooks "default theme in Ubuntu is a huge mistake " [Undecided,New] 04:21
mvodholbach: sure04:21
dholbachmvo: I'll do that next week - or thekorn can tell you which branches to use04:22
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cjwatsonsladen: who is gerard?04:25
soreniwj: What's depisok?04:25
iwjA function in dpkg/depcon.c04:26
iwjErr, dpkg/src/depcon.c I mean.04:26
sorenAh, ok.04:26
sladencjwatson: the guy I had here working on ubiquity/usplash/partman crypto04:26
soreniwj: I thought it was supposed to make sense to us mere mortals. :)04:27
sladencjwatson: I think (well, hope) he spoke/interacted with you04:27
ion_hobbsee: Heh, the Human theme is one of the few themes i actually like. :-)04:27
cjwatsonsladen: I don't recall that04:27
cjwatsonsladen: unless it was a sufficiently different name that it failed to register04:28
Hobbseeion_: actually, what i should write in that bug report is "then switch to another flavour of ubuntu, like kubuntu or edubuntu"04:28
iwjsoren: Err.  I could explain the implications but they're a bit complicated.  Mainly there are some circumstances now where if you force apt, or drive dpkg by hand, you'll get packages deconfigured as they ought to have been where previously they weren't.04:28
sladencjwatson: I'll enquire04:29
pkernogra: UVFe request submitted. *cough*04:30
=== ogra hugs pkern
pkernIf there wasn't that graphical splash screen I would already have Ubuntu installed under KVM. *cough*04:31
sladencjwatson: https://code.launchpad.net/~glledo/ubiquity/ubiquity-crypto  I don't know what state it's in04:31
cjwatsonoh, glledo04:31
cjwatsonyes, he did speak to me, haven't had much of a chance to review yet though since it's dependent on the lower layers working first04:32
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sladencjwatson: the status of the bits and pieces needed is at:  http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~glledo/ubiquity/ubiquity-crypto/annotate/gerard.lledo%40gmail.com-20070828150527-vd3gtds6li3loxw6?file_id=readme.partmancrypto-20070726090920-tyt6yud2781kc0c6-104:34
sladenmeh.  the delights of distributed RCS04:35
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soreniwj: I see. The changelog just made me curious. :)04:37
cjwatsonsladen: right, what I mean is that a lot of that gets to go away once it's in main and properly seeded and stuff04:37
iwjYay, now I have _two simultaneous glibc builds_ going.04:37
iwjI suppose they'll be done by tomorrow morning ...04:37
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HobbseeChipzz: i told kmos about his ddclient sync, not the powertop one04:48
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HobbseeChipzz: the powertop one seems to have been forgotten about, by others of the motu-uvf team.04:48
StevenKWhat's the bug number? I'll look now.04:49
HobbseeKmos: you keep saying you wont ask for any more sync requests, but you never seem to action that.04:49
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HobbseeStevenK: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/powertop/+bug/12957204:49
ubotuLaunchpad bug 129572 in powertop "Please sync powertop (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,Incomplete] 04:49
HobbseeStevenK: last time i checked, it had no changes, but LP has screwed with the panels.04:49
StevenKHobbsee: Thank ye04:49
StevenKHobbsee: zul_ ACK'd 1 minute ago04:51
Hobbseeah, neat.04:52
StevenKKicked to Confirmed04:52
HobbseeStevenK: can you check that u-a is subscribed, etc, etc, etc?04:52
Hobbseeas required?04:52
Hobbseegreat, thanks :)04:52
=== StevenK nods.
StevenKHobbsee: All done.04:53
Hobbseeinfinity: FYI, what Kmos is talking about is universe, nto main.  but the same applies (particularly as i'm on both teams)04:53
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HobbseeKmos: i said i wont process that one, nor others from you at this point in UVF, because i've got no confidence in any of them, due to the contradictions.  That is not hating you, that is simply stating the facts as they stand - i have other things that i want to see happen, and the teams have got the rest of the bugs to deal with too.04:55
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sladeniwj: what's preventing cryptsetup promotion to main?05:11
sladeniwj: security issues, usplash passphrase integration?05:12
iwjsladen: Oh, just some minor problems.  No showstoppers, but the package (and the MIR report) are just in need of a bit of tidying up.05:13
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iwjsladen: Perhaps I ought to just fix it up myself.05:16
iwjI don't really want to fix up every broken MIR but I'm quite keen on this package and it seems to be languishing.05:17
=== sladen pants breathlessly in iwj's direction
iwjHow alarming.05:18
sladeniwj: given the nature of this package, it is one that I /would/ rather was fixed up directly, if you're willing to05:18
iwjMy glibcs are still building :-).05:18
=== siretart hugs iwj for taken care of cryptsetup's MIR :)
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iwjOMG it's statically linked against libgcrypt, libgpg-error, libnsl.05:31
sabdflasac: am now in a spot with both wired and broken wpa networks05:31
sabdflwould you like me to help debug this?05:31
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dobeyhi sabdfl05:32
iwjsiretart: Are you using cryptsetup yourself ?  For the root fs ?05:32
iwjsladen: ^05:32
\shhmmm...one question to our firefox gurus...any reason why we have a package for the adblock plugin , but not for adblock plus? is there a reason behind this decision?05:34
sabdflhey dobey05:34
sladeniwj: not on /this/ machine.  But have done on the test installs05:34
Hobbsee\sh: out of curiousity, do we actually install any filter with that, and if so, which one?05:35
iwjsladen: OK, good.  I might ask you to test a package before I upload it.  I don't have a suitable setup here and it would save time if I got to break yours instead :-).05:35
\shHobbsee, well, that was my problem..I thought it's adblock plus with the filter abos...but it's just plain...05:35
Hobbsee\sh: abos?05:35
dobeysabdfl: how's it going?05:35
sabdflgood thanks dobey05:35
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\shHobbsee, nope...I meant subscription ;) damn DEnglish sometimes ,-)05:36
Hobbsee\sh: ahhhh...05:36
Hobbsee\sh: means my german should improve.  one day...05:36
iwjOIC.  "# cannot depend on libraries in /usr !"05:37
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sladeniwj: remember this is going to need to run from initramfs before / even exists05:38
asacsabdfl: yes ... let me switch context ...05:38
siretartiwj: I'm using it for my home partition05:38
asacsabdfl: i think what i wanted to test was to use wpa_supplicant manually ... e.g. not through wpa_supplicant.conf05:39
iwjsladen: Yes, in some setups.05:39
iwjsiretart: Hmm.05:39
siretartiwj: I've been bitten enough with my previous installation been root on lvm05:39
sorenI'm packaging a piece of software whose only code file is a python script installed in /usr/bin/.. IIUIC, the python packaging policy only says what to do about modules and extensions and this is neither.. Should I just leave it like this or am I required to modulify it and provide a wrapper script, etc.. ?05:39
iwjsiretart: As you say.05:39
asacsabdfl: because thats the way network-manager uses wpa supplicant05:39
siretartiwj: it was just too painfully racy, so that I came to the conclusion that its not worth the efford to do it with ubuntu. sadly :(05:39
asac(and is not doing very much otherwise in wpa case)05:40
siretartiwj: but for home partitions and crypted usb sticks/disks, it's great!05:40
iwjI expect it will substantially bloat your initramfs.  You don't have any problems with that then ?05:41
sabdflasac: that's fine05:41
asacsabdfl: wait a second i will outline the steps, e.g. commands05:42
sladensoren: you can put the python program straight into  /usr/bin  ;  see 'lsb-release' for such an example 'all' python package05:42
siretartwell, it will drag in libssl and cryptsetup. I don't see big problems for that, at least not on i386 and amd6405:42
geseris there some tool to check if the depends of a deb file can be fulfilled from the archive?05:42
iwjsiretart: Mmmm.05:42
sorensladen: Wicked. Thanks.05:43
siretartI have to admit that I don't know if a big initramfs size affects silo or palo05:43
iwjATM it statically links against those but I think that's really bad.05:43
iwjBut if I change that then anyone whose /usr needs cryptsetup will lose.05:43
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sorensladen: So... I don't even have to mess about with python-{central,support} or anything?05:43
ograsiretart, libssl ??05:43
sladensoren: apt-get source lsb-release05:43
sorensladen: Clever you.05:43
iwjogra: No, libgcrypto.05:43
iwjErr, libgcrypt.05:44
ograwell, something with sane licensing :)05:44
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sladeniwj: if you get suitably annoyed by looking at the package, you could probably knock up a better, alternative over the weekend05:46
siretarterr, sorry, nothing of that. I mixed it with wpasupplicant05:46
iwjsiretart: So how bad do you think it would be if I were to break anyone with /usr as a separate encrypted filesystem.05:46
iwjsladen: I think I'd just have the same the problem as this package is trying to solve.05:46
sorensladen: I'm not entirely sure what the semantics of XS-Python-Version: current is as opposed to XS-Python-Version: all..05:47
iwjI think I understand now why it was done this way but I don't like it.05:47
iwjFrom a security support POV static linking is really bad.05:47
siretartiwj: I'd expect it to just work, though we'd need to test it first05:47
sorensladen: If I belive my package will work with whatever is current, that's the same as saying "it should work with all of them", isn't it?05:47
iwjsiretart: No, if I make the change I have in mind it will break.05:47
siretartiwj: the current plan is to redisign the integration of cryptsetup's initscripts05:48
iwjBut only if /usr is a separate encrypted filesystem.05:48
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iwjWe're not redesigning anything at this stage, surely ?05:48
iwjI'm hoping to fix this up well enough for it to go in main.05:48
siretartno, not for gutsy. maybe for hardy05:48
cjwatsonredesign => not gutsy, I'd have thought05:48
siretartwith 'redesign', I mean cryptsetup <-> udev integration05:48
iwjsiretart: So my question is: how many people have (a) separate /usr AND (b) cryptsetup AND (c) encrypted /usr ?05:49
siretartit would involve crafting some kind of 'passphrase cryptsetup agent'05:49
iwjsiretart: I don't want to think about that right now :-).05:49
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cjwatsonsoren: XS-Python-Version: current => only include support for whatever the current version is, require trivial rebuild at some point when that changes; XS-Python-Version: all => include support for all currently supported versions05:49
soreniwj: The issue is the same with an encrypted root filesystem, isn't it?05:49
iwjsoren: No, because the initramfs tools will automatically pick up all of the needed libraries.05:49
ion_siretart: Someone should implement libwhat and what-UIs. ;-)05:50
siretartI wouldn't expect many users having seperate crypted /usr. If we encounter it makes problems, we could easily prevent it in the installer05:50
siretartwe don't support conversion of filesystems to crypted anyway05:50
iwjsoren: (I think.  I mean, we ought to test that but I don't anticipate a problem.)05:50
cjwatsonsoren: that's a summary, but http://wiki.debian.org/DebianPython/NewPolicy and search for XS-Python-Version05:50
soreniwj: Oh, clever. Why doesn't this work with an encrypted /usr then? At initramfs generation time, it's not encrypted, I suspect?05:50
iwjsiretart: My worry is that if I just make this binary dynamically linked I will make those machines unbootable if they exist already.05:50
iwjsoren: At initramfs generation it's mounted.05:50
cjwatsonyou could make the initramfs deal with mounting /usr too in that case ;-)05:51
=== cjwatson runs away
iwjcjwatson: That had occurred to me :-).05:51
soreniwj: Yes, that's what I meant.05:51
siretartiwj: there are already feisty users which managed to boot with crypted root without too much trouble, according to malone05:51
ograencrypted /usr ? :)05:51
iwjsiretart: No, no, listen to me very carefully.05:51
siretartiwj: TBH, I don't really see the point of an crypted /usr05:51
iwjThe problem I plan to create is ONLY if /usr is separate AND it is encrypted.05:51
sladeniwj: ignore the /usr issue.  think the encrypted / issue through05:51
iwjIf it's part of an encrypted /, it should be fine.05:52
iwjsladen: Right.05:52
soreniwj: So.. When it's mounted, the initramfs tools will grab the libs and put them into the initramfs ?05:52
iwjThat's what I was hoping to hear.05:52
iwjsoren: Right.05:52
siretartah, right05:52
soreniwj: And how do you intend to break this? :)05:52
iwjsoren: I don't.05:52
sladeniwj: how did you mount it ?...05:52
sorensladen: magic05:52
sladenchicken.  egg.05:52
iwjsladen: Well, if it was encrypted / then all is well because the last initramfs mounted it.05:52
asacsabdfl: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/19047305:52
iwjIf it's separate encrypted /usr then you lose.05:52
iwjATM that works because cryptsetup is statically linked and doesn't need anything from /usr.05:53
=== sladen blinks. maybe I missed something
siretartcryptsetup is statically linked? not on my machine..05:53
siretartit doesn't link to anything in /usr, though05:53
iwjsiretart: It's partially statically linked.05:54
siretartaah, and that's what you want to change05:54
=== beuno managed to have the whole encrypted system with: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemLVMHowto
iwjsiretart: Right.05:54
siretartiwj: why?05:54
cjwatsonsoren: the initramfs tools do that automatically assuming you use copy_exec05:54
cjwatsoniwj: (and so you could happily dynamically link the copy in the initramfs)05:55
sorencjwatson: Right, got that. What I'm not getting is why this doesn't work if /usr is encrypted..05:55
iwjsiretart: Because static linking is EBW.  In particular, it makes security support a PITA.05:55
iwjcjwatson: Right.05:55
cjwatsonsoren: because the initramfs isn't responsible for mounting /usr; that's the one in /05:55
sorencjwatson: Ah.05:55
cjwatsoniwj: though actually, that would only work if all the library packages triggered an initramfs update05:55
sorenYes, of course.05:55
cjwatsonotherwise you would effectively need to upgrade cryptsetup or otherwise trigger update-initramfs anyway05:56
iwjcjwatson: Uh ?  The initramfs is generated all in one go.05:56
siretartiwj: I see. well, as said, I don't expect many (of any!) user to just encrypt /usr. And we can prevent them doing so by some magic in the installer(s)05:56
iwjAfter you get the new cryptsetup, next time mkinitramfs runs it will pick up all of the new libraries.05:56
cjwatsoniwj: the security support problem is that if we upload say libgpg-error in a security update then the cryptsetup binary doesn't get updated automatically05:56
soreniwj: How is this more secure than linking it statically?05:57
cjwatsoniwj: an upgrade containing only libgpg-error will not automatically run mkinitramfs05:57
iwjsiretart: I'm less worried about new installs.  After all, "new install with pathological configuration doesn't boot" is a lot less bad than "my existing install doesn't boot".05:57
cjwatsoniwj: thus it's essentially the same problem unless libgpg-error triggers an initramfs update05:57
iwjcjwatson: I don't see the problem.  The old initramfs is still fine, surely.05:57
cjwatsoniwj: it's fine but it still contains the buggy libgpg-error05:57
asacsabdfl: after doing that, you should see in the wpa supplicant shell that it successfully authenticates ... and a message in wpa_cli shell that you successfully associated05:58
iwjsoren: If (eg) there's a bug in libgpg-error, we don't want to have to rebuild cryptsetup (and fourteen other packages).05:58
cjwatsonthe ideal situation is one in which uploading libgpg-error fixes up the initramfs too05:58
iwjcjwatson: OIC.  We could issue the security fix for libgpg-error with a call to trigger initramfs generation.05:58
siretartiwj: aah, now I understand what you are worrying about. well, we haven't cared much for this kind of users (installing random packages from universe) in the past05:58
soreniwj: You argued that statically linked binaries were a security problem because we'd need to rebuild them to get security updates. If you still have the borken versions in the initramfs it doesn't help much, does it?05:58
cjwatsonmy point exactly05:58
siretartI hold network-manager in breezy I think as example05:58
cjwatsonbut only necessary when cryptsetup is installed05:58
cjwatsonso it's a bit messy05:59
iwjcjwatson:   if test -f ... yada05:59
iwjOr cryptsetup could do it.05:59
asacsabdfl: for instance i see http://pastebin.mozilla.org/190474 i wpa_cli shell05:59
iwjinterest /usr/lib/libgpg-error.so.005:59
cjwatsoncryptsetup can only do it if it can be triggered by any of its dependent ... what you said05:59
iwjand then on activation say  dpkg-trigger update-initramfs  :-)05:59
iwjThe whole initramfs arrangements are a bit shonky really.06:00
soreniwj: I'm not entirely sure how your new dpkg trigger system works, but would it be possible for copy_exec to make a list of files that should trigger a new initramfs?06:00
iwjsoren: No.06:00
sorenwinkle: ok06:00
iwjLists of trigger interests are supposed to be static.06:00
soreniwj: ok06:00
Chipzzsoren: but that doesn't matter anyway, seriously06:01
cjwatsonone could generate a trigger interest list using ldd in cryptsetup's build process06:01
sladeniwj: but the regeneration only needs to happen /if/ something causes libgpg-error to be copied into the initramfs.  Is it is the utility causing libgpg to be pulled in that should somehow mark the hook to update-initramfs;  whether that's possible with the current hooks, I don't know.06:01
sorenChipzz: Why?06:01
cjwatsonit's really just shlibdeps on steroids06:01
Chipzzhaving an outdated version in the initramfs would require your system to be unbootable to be exploitable06:01
iwjsladen: There's no machinery for that kind of thing right now.06:01
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Chipzzfrom the moment you pivot_root06:01
Chipzzthey're gone06:01
iwjChipzz: Very good point.06:01
cjwatsonassuming that there's no way to nobble the filesystem such that the version in the initramfs will do something crazy06:02
Chipzzso in reality you got bigger problems (like a fscking *broken* system) to worry about than some *hypotethically* exploitable program06:02
sorenChipzz: We don't pivot_root anymore, actually :)06:02
iwjcjwatson: Yes, but our root mounting arrangements are already hopelessly weak against anyone who can introduce block devices with hostile contents.06:02
cjwatsonChipzz: (pivot_root is dead, long live run-init)06:02
cjwatsoniwj: mm06:02
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Chipzzbut the binaries are still gone, right?06:03
iwj(Big bug that but no way am I going to try to have that battle against the entire universe.)06:03
cjwatsonChipzz: my concern is really more that we end up with mystically broken systems whose bugs go away when you run update-initramfs06:03
sorenChipzz: Yes, but your root file system is still mounted using them.06:03
iwjSo I think the conclusion is I can dynamically link this without trouble.06:03
cjwatsondue perhaps to bugs that aren't security holes06:03
sladenwe should replace UUID with PKI shared UUIDs06:03
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Chipzzsoren: which does not matter since they can't be invoked by a user anyway06:03
iwjsladen: Yay, openssl in the initramfs.06:03
Chipzzthe way they're invoked is very controlled and very limited06:04
cjwatsonChipzz: cryptsetup may not suffer much from this but I have real bug reports that are examples of this problem so don't tell me it's not a problem06:04
sladenas at the moment the / UUID is a shared secret that allows a race-condition for taking over boot :)06:04
Chipzzcjwatson: there is a difference between "broken" and "exploitable"06:04
sorenChipzz: You're making assumptions about not-yet-discovered vulnerabilites. :)06:04
cjwatsonChipzz: I don't care. I'm talking purely about the initramfs updating arrangements which aren't sensitive to that distinction.06:04
cjwatsonlogically the initramfs should be updated whenever the source of anything copied into it is changed06:05
iwjsladen: Things are much worse if you use lvm.06:05
cjwatsonwe do not at present have the ability to do that in all cases06:05
iwjcjwatson: I think we need a dynamic trigger interests feature.06:05
cjwatsoncryptsetup's linkage stuff is just a special case of that06:05
cjwatsoniwj: tools to help build the trigger interests at package build time might help06:06
Chipzzstatically linking only pulls in the functions which are effectively used06:06
iwjcjwatson: *shudder* but yes.06:06
cjwatsoniwj: like I say, shlibdeps ...06:06
Chipzzso part of a lib may be broken/exploitable, and still not affect statically linked programs06:06
cjwatsonseems near enough the same thing :)06:06
Chipzzcjwatson: care to point me to some bugreports? I'm actually interested in some of these cases ;)06:07
sorenChipzz: "We're probably not vulnerable" is rarely a sensible approach to security.06:07
iwjChipzz: Also true but of course when the vuln in the lib is found the security guys have to go madly haring round trying to figure out what's vulnerable.06:07
Chipzznot that I have enough knowledge to fix them, just curious06:07
cjwatsonChipzz: comments near the end of bug 13196106:07
ubotuLaunchpad bug 131961 in busybox "Segfaults during boot (from mount)" [High,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/13196106:07
cjwatsonunfortunately I forget exactly what broke when I tried to make busybox-initramfs call update-initramfs06:08
cjwatsonI think it was something to do with initramfs-tools not necessarily being configured yet since it depends on busybox-initramfs, so it might be able to go away with triggers06:08
Chipzzsoren: really, things like cryptsetup would only exercise certain codepaths of broken libs, and I figure in controlled ways06:09
Chipzzand it's hard to replace those binaries with ones that would actually exploit the problem06:09
cjwatsoniwj: could I just have busybox-initramfs call 'dpkg-trigger --no-await update-initramfs' if dpkg-trigger is available?06:09
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Chipzzcjwatson: oh, heh, busybox... now *that* is an example of uncontrolable code paths ;)06:10
Chipzzby it's very nature even :)06:10
iwjcjwatson: Yes.06:12
Chipzzcjwatson: one could argue about the sanity of the way busybox is written I guess ;)06:12
iwjAnyway, I'm off to catch my train to go climbing now.  If anyone has any more to add feel free, and I'll catch up on the log tomorrow.06:14
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bryceRiddell, 132405 - xterm sync - you may have already sync'd it.  It looks extremely minor to me, having only two bug fixes neither of which seem terribly critical.06:16
Riddellbryce: ok06:17
iwjTTFN all.06:17
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bryceRiddell, btw fyi, I have been organizing the backport fixes from xserver 1.3.99 to our 1.3.0 here:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Fixes_to_Backport06:18
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sabdflasac: i have to head to the "other office" in 1006:21
sabdflcan we have a stab at NM now?06:21
asacsabdfl: what do you mean by "stab" ?06:21
sabdflwell. you tell me what to type. i type it and tell you what i see ;-)06:21
asacsabdfl: i posted above?06:22
sabdflright now i've switched to "manual config" and it works fine06:22
asacyes ... what is important that we see that wpa_cli works the way i posted06:22
asacsabdfl: if the wpa_cli doesn't receive the associated events, then network-manager doesn't see them and doesn't try to get an ip06:23
pkern"Is the system clock set to UTC?" is a bogus question in the installer when the current system clock content is now shown to the user... *cough*06:26
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ograpkern, thats onyl done by d-i06:27
ograubiquity doesnt asjk that question anymore06:28
pkernogra: Correct, I am currently trying to install a minimal gutsy tribe...06:28
sorenpkern: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/clock-setup/+bug/6886106:29
ubotuLaunchpad bug 68861 in clock-setup "edgy text mode installer: show the current time when asking about system clock being in utc" [Wishlist,Confirmed] 06:29
cjwatsonogra: (which is in itself a bug)06:29
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pkernsoren: Thanks.06:30
ogracjwatson, indeed...06:30
cjwatsonclock-setup has NTP support in d-i trunk so I'm hoping this will get a lot better for networked users in hardy06:31
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cjwatsonRiddell: do you know whether KDE uses pmi to decide whether to offer suspend/hibernate?06:35
Riddellcjwatson: it uses HAL06:36
=== Hobbsee finally heads to bed.
Riddellalthough power manager may fall back to some other method if HAL isn't running06:36
mjg59Riddell: HAL will always claim that suspend and hibernated are supported with our kernels06:37
Riddellmjg59: why?06:38
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cjwatsonmjg59: would there be a problem with making it use pmi?06:39
mjg59Riddell: Because hal just tests whether the kernel provides the functionality, not whether any sort of policy forbids it06:39
cjwatsonmjg59: in this crazy loop-mount-from-NTFS case it would be really useful to be able to nobble pmi to say that suspend and hibernate aren't supported06:39
mjg59cjwatson: Doubt it, but I'm not familiar with the code06:40
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cjwatsonI thought policy was allowed in hal06:40
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mjg59cjwatson: It's allowed, but nothing does it06:41
cjwatsonmjg59: would there be another place where pmi integration would be better?06:42
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mjg59On boot we could probably check the status with pmi or whatever, and then set the keys in hal06:42
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Riddellmjg59: so does gnome-power-manager use pmi to check if it's available?06:42
cjwatsonRiddell: not any more06:42
mjg59I've no clue. I really haven't checked this code lately.06:42
cjwatsonmjg59: we can't just call it each time it's queried?06:42
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cjwatsonRiddell: ogra took that out in the gutsy cycle06:43
mjg59cjwatson: No06:43
mjg59hal is a status repository06:43
mjg59It updates information as events happen, it doesn't generate the data on request06:43
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cjwatsonhmm, hal queries something called /usr/bin/pm-is-supported already, which we don't have06:49
cjwatsonoh, yes we do, it's in pm-utils in universe06:49
cjwatsonhmm. so that looks much better than what we have but it does all kinds of stuff and I don't fancy making the call myself06:51
cjwatsonI think I'll just patch hal to ask pmi if pm-is-supported isn't there06:51
mjg59I was looking at moving over from acpi-support to pm-utils06:51
mjg59But mdz thought we were too close to FF at the time06:51
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ion_pm-is-supported seems to give the expected results on my hardware. Would be nice to have HAL query it by default.06:52
cjwatsonion_: it already does.06:53
cjwatsonion_: but we don't install pm-is-supported by default so I'm going to make it use pmi as a fallback, which we do install by default.06:53
cjwatson(for now)06:53
ion_I meant having HAL query it by default in the default installation, that is having it installed alongside HAL by default. :-)06:53
mjg59ion_: We can't.06:53
mjg59pm-utils would break a lot of stuff right now.06:54
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calcmjg59: any news about the amd64 vbetool?07:07
mjg59calc: Nope. Your bug is still weird.07:08
calcmjg59: ok heh07:09
mjg59I'll probably get some work done on it during XDS07:09
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cjwatsonmjg59: aside from being obvious clone-and-hack, does http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/tmp/90_pmi.patch look vaguely reasonable?07:10
cjwatsonI haven't tried it yet ...07:10
mjg59cjwatson: Yeah, looks basically sane07:13
ion_Interestingly, pmi says my hardware supports suspend and hibernate, pm-utils say it only supports hibernate. Suspend doesnt work on my computer, but i havent investigated the reason  it might simply be the nvidia proprietary driver.07:13
cjwatsonI'll leave a changelog note saying it can go away once pm-utils is in place07:13
mjg59Should bcm43xx-fwcutter be promoted?07:14
mjg59Given that restricted-manager bails with a weird error otherwise07:15
cjwatsonit's kind of crazy and relies on URLs which keeps  changing07:15
cjwatsons/s  / /07:15
cjwatsonbut nothing else provides the same functionality07:15
mjg59cjwatson: In that case, it might be better to leave it out of r-m?07:15
calccould it request a url which redirects to the current one?07:15
mjg59calc: Awkward copyright issues07:16
cjwatsonI think (a) it probably ought to be promoted to restricted (b) r-m should cope with it being absent07:16
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mjg59cjwatson: It copes to the extent of "The software source for the package is not enabled"07:16
mjg59Which makes sense to me, but probably not to most :)07:16
calcmjg59: hmm then download a file that it parses which contains the current url to the files, that would get around the linking issue (maybe?)07:16
mjg59It'd also be nice if it warned that it needed network access07:17
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elmohmm, I have a crash report on the live cd07:22
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kagou\o/ sz07:31
zasfmjg59: i did the hack wich prompts "The software source for the package is not enabled"07:34
zasfI understand it is meaningless to the most07:35
zasfbut you can't know wich repo belongs to if you that repo is not enabled07:35
zasfI wonder how command-not-found behaves if user tries to execute a command07:37
zasffor wich needed repo is not enabled07:37
pygieasy :P07:38
pygiit tells you to enable the repo :p07:38
zasfhehe but wich one?07:38
pygiwell, depending on the app you're trying to execute?07:38
pygiit has it's data source, you know =)07:39
zasfah, ok :)07:39
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zasfisn't repositories data duplicated?07:39
pyginow I'll do ":P" :P07:39
zasfso r-m could be smart enough to read that dir07:40
zasffind out wich repo is needed and prompt "why don't you open 'software sources' and enable XX repo"?07:41
Lamegocouldn't it be even smarter ? "Do you want to enable the repository XPTO containing this software?"07:42
mjg59Though it would also be nice if it pointed out that you'll need network access07:42
mjg59Right now it says "Enable firmware", not "Download and enable firmware"07:42
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milianis k3b currently not working?07:46
zasfmjg59: that's because bcm43xx-fwcutter is not in main07:46
cjwatsonzasf: (main or restricted)07:46
miliani.e. is this known: :-[ WRITE@LBA=10h failed with SK=5h/ASC=21h/ACQ=02h] : Invalid argument07:46
milian:-( write failed: Invalid argument07:47
milianor should I file a bug report?07:47
zasfif user has no other internet access rather than wireless.. he has no chance07:47
mjg59zasf: No, it *needs* network access - there's no other way for it to get the firmware07:50
zasfmjg59: he can also cut it from local (win partition or driver cd)07:51
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mjg59zasf: Not through restricted-manager07:51
mjg59Or can they?07:51
zasfmjg59: they can07:51
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mjg59zasf: restricted-manager will search their hard drive?07:52
zasfuser can point where fw is07:52
zasftrough a 'browse' button07:52
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mjg59cjwatson: In that case, fwcutter probably ought to be in ship07:52
ograzasf, where would that browse button be ? i dont see it here07:53
=== ogra has a brooadcom card he doesnt use so no driver installed ....
zasfi'll upload a screenshot shortly07:54
ograand no option to select any location for anything here07:54
pkernmkinitramfs takes forever on qemu proper *cough*07:54
ograoh, you are talking about a future version ?07:54
zasfgutsy's version07:54
ograzasf, using that here07:55
ion_pkern: It takes forever on real hardware. :-)07:55
ograchecking the broadcom firmware checkbox only gives me a dialog asking if i want to enable it ... then it pops up gdebi and installs fwcutter07:56
pkernion_: Hm... well I devote a core to that qemu emulation. But then I guess it took forever the last time, too, so probably I just need to wait another half an hour...07:56
ograzasf, and how do i get to that window ?07:56
ograoh !07:57
zasfogra: enable fw..07:57
ograit comes *after* gdebi ran07:57
ograand after the gdebi win was closed ...07:57
zasfwhat did you use gdebi for?07:57
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ograi didnt, r-m calls it to install fwcutter07:58
ograwhich i didnt have07:58
zasfit calls synaptic07:58
ograwell, similar ui :)07:58
zasf:) yes07:58
zasfthere are still problems (LP #135000), but it works07:59
ubotuLaunchpad bug 135000 in restricted-manager "unresponsive at broadcom firmware installation" [Undecided,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/13500007:59
ograwell, fwcutter should definately get seeded (even installed by default imho) to avoid the synaptic stuff ...08:00
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sbalneavogra: Did you update nbd-client, or nbd-server?08:01
ograsbalneav, ? its the same source ?08:01
ograi just applied your patch08:02
zasfmjg59 ogra pygi Lamego: thanks for your suggestions, I'll see if I can improve r-m a bit08:02
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zasfI gotta go now, see you later08:02
ograand checked that the manpage ended up in my testbuilt binary08:02
sbalneavright, same source, but two different packages, it splits into nbd-client, and nbd-server.08:02
sbalneavthe patch was for nbd-server08:02
ograogra@laptop:~/packages/nbd-2.9.6$ dpkg -c /var/cache/pbuilder/result/nbd-server_2.9.6-1ubuntu3_i386.deb |grep man|grep gz08:03
ogra-rw-r--r-- root/root      4010 2007-08-29 17:41 ./usr/share/man/man5/nbd-server.5.gz08:03
ogra-rw-r--r-- root/root      2824 2007-08-29 17:41 ./usr/share/man/man1/nbd-server.1.gz08:03
sbalneavah, ok08:03
ograall fine here08:03
sbalneavI just saw an update for nbd-client come down.08:03
sbalneavserver hasn't updated yet, I guess08:03
ograyeah, as i said, same source package08:03
sbalneavoh, wait, no, mine wouldn't :)08:03
ograboth should be updated at the same time08:03
sbalneavI've GOT the new one installed :)08:04
ograright, you have the patch in your binary already :)08:04
calciwj: got another MIR for you if you have time... libwpg :)08:04
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pkernion_: Hm, there are currently two mkinitramfs currently concurrently.08:05
pkernion_: http://durotan.0x539.de/~pkern/two-mkinitramfs.png08:08
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pkernIs Ubuntu's boot prompt *after the installation* graphical (i.e. is a pixmap used in grub)?09:04
LaserJockpkern: after installation of what?09:05
pkernLaserJock: Gutsy Tribe fwiw09:05
LaserJockno, I don't believe so09:05
pkernLaserJock: Fine, thanks.09:05
LaserJockthe idea is to keep grub as out of the way as possible09:06
LaserJockthat's why the menu isn't show by default09:06
pkernLaserJock: Ah, nice.09:06
LaserJockI mentored a Google Summer of Code student working on a grub config gui09:06
dilomoand what is the progress bar like?09:07
LaserJockperhaps when that gets integrated then it'll be easier to do09:07
pkernYep, no graphics... yay.09:08
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_MMA_I have GIMP crashing on 2 machines if I resize a image. Should I post this as a bug? http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/3558309:15
ion_mma: Try running G_SLICE=always-malloc gimp. Ive had some crashing problems with it and that seems to be a workaround. I havent got around to investigating and reporting the problem yet.09:16
LaserJockI was doing some research last night and gnumeric wouldn't start up at all09:18
LaserJockfun crazy gutsy gibbon09:18
_MMA_ion_: Yeah. Thats works. :( Shame though.09:19
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ion_mma: If you report it, please mention the bug ID to me, ill subscribe to it.09:19
ion_(Perhaps its reported already, i havent even checked that.)09:20
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_MMA_ion_: Ok Well best I can do is post the pastebin. Is that fine for now?09:25
ion_mma: Its probably easiest to post a bug report with apport.09:27
=== _MMA_ is unsure how to use apport. :(
_MMA_ion_: Bug 13565009:32
ubotuLaunchpad bug 135650 in gimp "GIMP crashes when trying to resize an image." [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/13565009:32
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Mithrandirhm, anybody know what runs the stuff in /etc/xdg/autostart when the session starts?09:48
ion_xfce4-session :-)09:49
jwendellMithrandir, gnome-session ?09:49
ion_In gnome, probably gnome-session.09:49
Mithrandirwell, whenyou're not using xfce4-session or gnome-session?09:49
Mithrandirlike, when  you're using startx and just a window manager.09:49
ograis it started then ?09:50
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Mithrandirhm, is there a tool to "execute" .desktop files, then?09:53
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ion_mithrandir: xdg-open09:53
LaserJockthat works on .desktops?09:53
ion_Seems to.09:54
Mithrandirion_: ah, thanks a lot, I'll try that.09:54
ograwell, doesnt that need an url ?09:55
ion_ogra: It accepts plain file paths as well.09:55
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alex-weejcohoba is unmaintained upstream and has died a death. what's the procedure for dropping support for it in Ubuntu?10:01
dholbachalex-weej: file a bug report, subscribe 'ubuntu-archive' to it10:05
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ion_Is it just me, or has it already been removed from the archive?10:07
Mithrandirion_: except it didn't work.10:08
ion_mithrandir: Strange. Here it works.10:08
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Mithrandircan you look in your mailcap file and see if there's anything referencing it?10:10
Mithrandireven on my desktop, it just opens it in a text editor.10:19
Mithrandirthat's hardly useful. :-P10:19
ion_mithrandir: Ah, xdg-open uses open_xfce(), which calls exo-open, which DTRT with .desktop files.10:21
ion_mithrandir: If youre running gnome, it does something else.10:21
Mithrandirah, ok.10:22
Mithrandirso there might not be any utility which DTRT with .desktop files10:22
ograMithrandir, proably in the xdg-utils package10:23
ion_mvo: I noticed a way to detect an Xfce environment from xdg-opens code: xprop -root _DT_SAVE_MODE | grep ' = "xfce4"$' >/dev/null 2>&110:25
ion_mvo: Perhaps thats helpful with the compiz launcher.10:25
ion_They could just use xprop -root _DT_SAVE_MODE | grep -q ' = "xfce4"$' though :-)10:26
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alex-weejAmaranth: yo10:31
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ubotuLaunchpad bug 91783 in compiz "Compiz's default Human-glass look does not "work" visually" [Wishlist,New] 10:31
Amaranthhaven't we gone over this before?10:32
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sladenBenC: did CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IO_TRACE get dropped at some point?10:42
BenCsladen: Not that I'm aware of10:43
sladenBenC: I was wondering why I couldn't blktrace;  one mention I found was that it worked <feisty10:44
sladenoh there's a bug #118303  open10:45
ubotuLaunchpad bug 118303 in linux-source-2.6.22 "CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IO_TRACE is not enabled preventing blktrace from working" [Unknown,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/11830310:45
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BenCsladen: it should be fixed in gutsy10:49
BenCwont be in feisty10:49
alex-weejAmaranth: i was just giving you the bug ID...10:52
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sladenBenC: the "Fix Commited" is for the Debian BTS report, not the Ubuntu one;  is it also now fixed in Gutsy?11:09
BenCsladen: doesn't appear so11:10
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geserdoko: have you time to look at the gnupginterface debdiff in bug #36733?11:19
ubotuLaunchpad bug 36733 in adonthell "package includes *.py[co]  files" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/3673311:19
dokogeser: well, that should be triaval, could you have a look yourself?11:22
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geserdoko: I provided it, I need now a main sponsor for it11:22
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BenCsladen: enabled and pushed for next upload11:23
sladenBenC: woo, thank you11:23
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superm1infinity, cprov it would appear that promethium (xen-amd64) is freezing again on the same build: https://launchpad.net/+builds/promethium11:24
dokogeser: uploaded11:26
geserdoko: thanks11:27
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cprovsuperm1: garr ...11:36
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superm1cprov, don't worry about sorting it out right now, you guys have more pressing issues to get the launch going :)11:42
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cprovsuperm1: I let it stuck so infinity can debug the problem (he should show up soon)11:43
superm1okay sounds good11:43
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bigonIs there any way to get the ubuntu developer keyring?12:05
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