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=== Topic for #ubuntu-mobile: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/FAQ
=== Topic (#ubuntu-mobile): set by mdz at Thu Aug 16 15:19:37 2007
(bspencer_/#ubuntu-mobile) ok. I can chat about this offline07:02
(rustyl_/#ubuntu-mobile) making each commit into a patch is not very useful07:02
(rustyl_/#ubuntu-mobile) it would be eaiser to create one big patch and just split it up by hand07:02
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) bspencer_: unsure if we have answered your question well?07:03
(rustyl_/#ubuntu-mobile) another option is to only check in patches into the debian/patches dir07:03
bspencer_rustyl_: yes, that sounds like what I'd like to do07:04
MithrandirI really despise keeping patches in revision control systems, but I know some people like it.07:04
rustyl_the reality is that different projects deal with this in different ways07:04
bspencer_it is temporary and reminds us that these need to be removed soon07:04
bspencer_so it annoys us that they are there, and we ask about them all the time07:04
bspencer_and we know how our branch is different from upstream and can point to the changes at any time07:04
rustyl_the worse thing about this approach is when some of your developers don't understand the concept, and then go and directly edit the source files07:05
bspencer_rustyl_: Mithrandir I'll do what you suggest.  if we don't want to draga round patch files, I'll keep track of the changes elsewhere and just commit to the trunk.07:06
Mithrandirbspencer_: sounds good to me.07:06
Mithrandir[TOPIC]  App selection07:06
MootBotNew Topic:  App selection 07:06
Mithrandiragoliveira: your item07:06
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agoliveiraWe still have a few points we need to iron out regarding to applications.07:07
agoliveiraFor instance: RSS reader. Should we use a separate one or a browser or email plugin?07:07
bspenceragoliveira: good Q07:07
bspencerwe will have online RSS readers07:07
bspencerand there is even a menu item for it in the mozilla browser07:07
bspencerbut that means they have to open the browser to read it07:08
agoliveiraI don't think we should start a discussion here as it would take forever so I suggest that you take a good hard look here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserApplications and take this to the mailing list.07:08
agoliveiraThat's becasue RSS is just one point :)07:09
bspenceragoliveira: ok.  but a chat about it would be good (not now)07:09
bspencermailing list sometimes takes a long time to resolve for small points07:09
agoliveiraWe can make something specific, no problem.07:09
Mithrandiragoliveira: which apps are the ones you are wondering about?07:09
agoliveirabspencer: Agree07:09
agoliveiraA few point then...07:10
agoliveira- Remote desktop client. I can prepare rdesktop and vnc but a few questions we need to iron out like, should they have panning? Should they work fullscreen only?07:10
agoliveira- RSS reader - Needed to decide which one. 07:10
agoliveira- Office document viewer - There's none we can use directly, we need to discuss if we are going to do something about it like the options I proposed on the doc or not.07:10
agoliveira- Games? Which ones exactly.07:10
bspencerI have opinions about all those07:11
bspencerwhich we can chat about after?07:11
agoliveiraCool :) And why they aren 't on the wiki page? ;)07:11
bspencerunless Mithrandir is eager to chat now :)07:11
Mithrandirafter the meeting sounds like a plan to me.07:11
Mithrandirwe here in boston probably want a 30-minute break or so to catch lunch.07:12
bspenceragoliveira: sorry about my not commenting on wiki.  post the link here?07:12
Mithrandir(after the meeting)07:12
bspenceragoliveira: probably ready to eat too07:12
agoliveirabspencer: Sure https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserApplications07:12
bspenceragoliveira: do you want to sync up in an hour ?07:12
agoliveirabspencer: No problem.07:13
bspencer(around 11:30am PDT) ?07:13
bspencer(10:15 am PDT now)07:13
MithrandirI have one agenda item about moblin.org vs ubuntu-mobile and patches and such, so let's do that, then end the meeting, unless anybody else has more stuff.07:13
Mithrandir[TOPIC]  moblin.org, ubuntu-mobile, patches and such.07:13
MootBotNew Topic:  moblin.org, ubuntu-mobile, patches and such. 07:13
Mithrandirso, we're currently at a sprint where we ended up having a bunch of issues because hildon-desktop on moblin had added a plugin API which didn't exist in Ubuntu07:14
Mithrandirit's quite crucial that we don't go about modifying upstream projects in a way that changes the public API.07:14
Mithrandirthat won't gain us friends, and we end up with crazy problems when mixing and matching seemingly-compatible components.07:15
MithrandirI'm taking this up here so everybody sees it, I think we've already talked through it and are in agreement to avoid doing it in the future.07:16
HappyCamp_laptopMithrandir: you want to make a note of that in the log?07:16
Mithrandir[AGREED]  don't change upstream APIs unless in coordination with upstream.07:16
MootBotAGREED received:  don't change upstream APIs unless in coordination with upstream. 07:16
bspenceris the issue that we changed the public API, or that there were changes on moblin that weren't found in UME and broke the build?07:16
HappyCamp_laptopkind of both, I think07:17
Mithrandirit broke at runtime, not at build.07:17
bspencerbecause just not changing the public API won't help the build problem07:17
Mithrandirthe former is really the biggest problem, since the latter wouldn't have happened without the former.07:17
Mithrandirit wasn't a build problem, it was a runtime problem where the "prev" button in the marquee would go down in flames with an unresolved symbol.07:18
Mithrandir(there might have been other problems too, but in this case, that was the problem)07:18
bspenceryeah.  not good07:18
Mithrandirif upstream has taken a patch to add an API, it's fine, even if it's not in a released version.07:18
bfiller_just so I'm clear, the moblin version of hildon-desktop is going away and it will only be hosted on launchpad. correct?07:19
bspencerbfiller_: gone07:19
Mithrandirthere is no moblin version of hildon-desktop.07:19
Mithrandirit's already gone.07:19
bspencerhildon-desktop was only in moblin.org temporarily until we could get our patches upstream07:20
bfiller_bspencer: got it07:20
bspencerbut obviously we didn't get them there soon enough :)07:20
Mithrandiranybody got any more agenda items, or can we adjourn?07:20
Mithrandiradjourned, then.07:21
MootBotMeeting finished at 17:13.07:21
Mithrandironly 80 minutes or so.07:21
bfiller_bspencer, rusty: want to talk about the flash stuff now?07:22
bspencerI would if rustyl_  is still here07:22
patmrustyl_, I have a  question about SDIO07:22
rob_moblinpatm: what's the question?07:23
rustyl_i'm hear07:23
patmwe are having trouble with SD memory cards with the latest patches applied07:23
patmour SDIO wifi card works but not SD cards07:23
patmthe mmc_core module seems to conflict07:24
rustyl_bfiller_, i'm reading the doc you sent out07:24
bspencerbfiller_: I'm reading your doc07:24
rob_moblinpatm: how so?07:24
bfiller_ok, we can talk after you're done07:25
rustyl_bfiller_, have you seen how application starting works now?07:25
patmthe driver will not load unless we remove the mmc_core07:25
rob_moblinpatm: do you have both MMC and MSS installed at the same time?07:25
bfiller_rusty: yes I have. I realize it's slightly different07:25
bfiller_rusty: I did have a question about it though07:25
rustyl_bfiller_, i like the idea of not having flash hard coded with exec commands07:26
rob_moblinpatm: MSS is a replacement for the MMC stack that's in the kernel by default. it's an either or option07:26
bfiller_rusty: agree07:26
patmwhen we have just mss, sd cards do not work07:26
bfiller_rusty: looks like you are storing the index into the array in the flash movie07:26
bfiller_only problem we hit in our case is that the flash movie has hard coded apps07:27
rustyl_bfiller_, yeap.... then all the flash content needs to do is say 'start #3'07:27
rob_moblinpatm: our focus right now is NOT to on MSS -- we want to move to Pierre Ossman's new SDIO stack07:27
rustyl_bfiller_, all you need to do is remove the hard coded apps, and replace that with a set of desktop files that result in the same behavior07:27
patmrob_moblin, RIght, I understand07:28
patmrob_moblin, wondered if it was a known issue or something to do with our environment07:28
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bfiller_if the we don't use the addApp() to add the movie dynamcially to flash, how does the movie know what the corresponding index is?07:28
rustyl_bfiller_, the idea is that the flash content is adding the apps dynamically07:29
rob_moblinpatm: we've seen that some SD cards work and others don't07:30
rob_moblinpatm: we've also seen even with the MMC stack, some SD cards work and other don't07:30
rustyl_bfiller_, quick quesion...07:30
bfiller_rusty: I think that is a good idea. Just not exactly sure how to modify the customer's movie to do this.07:30
patmrob_moblin, in that case let me do some further testing, thanx07:30
rustyl_bfiller_, are you guys stuck with a flash based UI... do you have the ability to choose a different technology?07:31
bfiller_rusty: for this particular customer, we're stuck with flash. They are insistent with using it07:31
rustyl_bfiller_, i am very conserned about battery usage07:31
bfiller_rusty: yes, we've raised that issue07:32
rob_moblinpatm: we were also thinking there might be a problem with the crown beach board w.r.t. to SD cards, but if you're seeing different results on your non-crown beach HW it could be a SW issue07:32
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rustyl_bfiller_, unless we can somehow stop the flash content while it is not visible, then the adobe flash implementation will never let the cpu go idle for long enough to get any benifit from all the new cpu mobile technologies07:32
patmrob_moblin, the customer reported this, but I have not tried recently, I will try their dev board now07:33
bspencerrustyl_: we should get someone good at flash to push that theory07:33
rob_moblinpatm: ok07:33
bfiller_rusty: how do the desktop files in /usr/share/mobile-basic-flash/applications get installed there?07:33
bspencerand make the most basic flash program and see if it isn't our flash07:33
bspencerrustyl_: have you tried other flash programs that are static?07:33
bfiller_I was expecting the home plugin to read the desktop files out of /usr/share/applications07:33
rustyl_bfiller_, the idea is that an applicatino that wanted to be presented in the UI would add it's own desktop file to that location07:33
bspencerbfiller_: we didn't want to change the default applications .desktop content.  For example, we don't want to show Python, though there may be a .desktop file for it07:34
bspencerin /usr/share/applications07:34
bfiller_rusty, bspencer: I understand07:34
patmrustyl_, it needs to be a more standard folder not tied to the flash ui07:35
bspencerI do think it would be nice to have it located in /etc/mobile-ui/applications  (or a symlink or something)07:35
bspencerand every UI would look there, regardless of whether it was written in flash or other07:35
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bspencerbut that's just brainstorming07:35
rustyl_bspencer, bfiller_ ...although, we could look for a new entry (like stuff under ['Hildon Home'] )07:35
patmright, I just installed some new apps that need to have their rules changed to work07:35
bspencermaybe /usr/share/applications/mobile-ui07:36
bspenceror mobile-home07:36
bfiller_rustyl_: so does the mobile-basic-flash deb package current install those dekstop files?07:36
rustyl_the other problem we have is dictating order of the icons07:37
bspencerwe need to create an "application requirements list" 07:37
bspencerapplications should include creation of this item.  (yes, ordering is also an issue)07:37
patmlooks like you are using the numbered prefix for ordering07:37
rustyl_right now we just send down the array of apps as they desktop entries are found 07:37
bspencerbtw, ordering may be changed by end user.  Also, applications could be grouped into category.  The design should accomodate these things.07:38
patmright our customer has defined a grouping07:38
bfiller_bspencer: what are the number prefixes used for?07:38
bspencerthat is the order they will be represented in the current UI, left-to-right07:39
bfiller_bspencer: that's what I thought07:39
rustyl_actually, it's the order of the index entryies, which the flash content translates into a left-to-right icon ordering07:39
rustyl_we could add a desktop entry for group07:39
patmwho can write up the requirements and a proposal?07:39
bspencerrustyl_ and I will talk about it07:40
bspencerand send out something 07:40
rustyl_i don't think that is the best way07:40
rustyl_since we have our existing flash content that works (for some degree of work)...07:40
patmoh oh07:41
rustyl_what we need are requirements from other people trying to make the UI work for different flash content07:41
rustyl_like what is coming out here07:41
bfiller_I know our customer will require grouping of apps07:41
bspencercan we list them here briefly (the ones we know) ?07:41
bfiller_so I think that is important07:41
bspencer - req1) grouping07:41
rustyl_for example... what if you don't have a slider concept... how do you deal with that?07:41
lenkawell a non-flash home page?07:41
bspencer - req2) ordering by customer07:42
bspencer - req3) ordering by end-user07:42
bspencer - req 4) non-flash UI home page accomodated07:42
patmmultiple themes?07:42
bspencerrustyl_: yes, in that case the ordering can be ignored, but maybe grouping is used07:42
bspencerrustyl_: (if there is no slider, for example)07:42
bspencerpatm: what do you mean?  It should support theming?07:43
bfiller_rusty: back to the index thing. Could we use an invented applicationId as the key rather than an array index?07:43
patmicon needs to play along with it07:43
bfiller_rusty: the appId could be stored in the desktop file07:43
bfiller_rusty: then the flash movie doesn't need to necessary support dynamically adding apps07:44
bspencerpatm: the location of the icons is another topic  -- good point.  Actually the theme will include:   /usr/share/theme/<theme definition with theme images, but not icons>  AND /usr/share/icons/<theme icons>07:44
patmbspencer, so the icons go to /usr/share/icons ? but they do not today?07:45
bspencerpatm: right07:45
bspencerthey do not today07:45
bspencer(well, rustyl_ may have changed that)07:45
bspenceroriginally the icons were in /usr/share/mobile-basic-flash/icons07:46
kwwiithey should probably go in /usr/share/icons/<THEME>07:46
bspencerkwwii:  yes  that is what I meant to say07:46
patmsounds good07:46
bspencerwe just don't have a theme yet :)    ( kwwii : btw, how does an application get the name of the current theme ? )07:46
rustyl_via the environment07:47
bfiller_bspencer, rustyl_: be right back, have to run to caf. before it closes07:47
bspencerrustyl_: from a matchbox-wm method ?07:47
bspencerbfiller_: k07:47
bspencer - req5) home UI uses current theme for icons and default background07:48
bspencer - req6) user can change the default background using control-panel applet for configuring desktop   (or a shortcut on the home screen UI which does the same)07:49
rustyl_i think i need to think on this a bit07:49
kwwiibspencer: it is a system variable (probably) set in gtkrc07:49
kwwiibspencer: once we have a test theme a lot of this will become much clearer I assume07:49
kwwiiI looked into using the theme-maker java app to create a theme but the template file is in a totally different order for that07:50
kwwiiso I gave up07:50
bspencerkwwii: I was going to hack a little on hildon-theme-mobile-basic to add icons for a temporary thing, so we could pull them into the UI and get the UI home screen working right07:50
kwwiibspencer: sounds good for the short-term07:51
bspencerkwwii: yeah, still not a real theme07:51
kwwiibspencer: I was going to update the pics for the top-bar as well...I'll probably be pinging you about that sometime soon07:51
bspencersounds good07:52
kwwiibspencer: it seems that in the next few weeks we need to have something that looks halfway like we want it to show to people07:52
bfiller_I'm back07:52
bspencerkwwii: agreed.  07:53
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bfiller_bspencer, rustyl_: any comments about the events doc?07:54
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rustyl_bfiller_, so you have a set of predefined events07:55
bfiller_rustyl_: that's what we were thinking for this particular customer. Could be made more generic though.07:56
bspencerbfiller_: how does the javascript send a dbus event?07:56
bfiller_bspencer: it doesn't07:57
bspencerok.  I thought I was missing something07:57
bfiller_bspencer: home plugin gets a dbus event and calls a javascript function umeEvent() passing it the appropriate event07:57
bspencerhome plugin is what -- gtkmozembed ?07:58
bspencerlike now?07:58
bfiller_bspencer: yes07:58
bspencersorry -- I'm looking at ht epicture and trying to understand it07:58
bfiller_bspencer: the change would be the home plugin would listen for appropriate dbus signals and then forward to the flash movie07:58
bspencerso do we need an xpcom interface for javascript--> C code --> dbus event ?07:58
bspencerthat is part of the gtkmozembed plugin ?07:59
rustyl_bspencer, what are you asking?07:59
rustyl_no need for a new xpcom interface07:59
bspencerhow does the flash send a dbus event07:59
rustyl_all the native work is done in our container07:59
bspencerwhat are the steps07:59
rustyl_js just acts as a glue layer between the flash content and our container08:00
bfiller_bspencer: here is the flow 1) flash movie calls umeEnable() function which tells container to start listening for a predefined set of events 2) when container (plugin) gets events, it delivers them to flash movie via javascript call08:00
bspencerok.  the container is the C code sending/receiving dbus events.  So javascript is making an "exec" call ?  08:01
rustyl_bspencer, if you look at the current code, you will see how we transfer data back and forth08:01
bfiller_flash movie can also ask for specific property via umeGetProperty()08:01
bspencerlook at the code?  inconceivable.  ok.   08:01
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bfiller_bspencer: C code uses gtkmozembed to call a know javascript function in the flash_home.html page passing it the information about the event08:02
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bfiller_bspencer, rustyl_: when I get more of the event interaction coded in the mobile-basic-flash-plugin I will send you diffs to take a look at08:12
Mithrandirrustyl_: please don't use a different directory for the .desktop files, but rather use the OnlyShowIn/NotShowIn keys in the .desktop files already existing.08:22
ToddBrandt_Mithrandir: sorry I missed the meeting earlier, were there any hot topics for me?08:22
MithrandirToddBrandt_: we'd liked to have had a status update on the control panel applets, so if you'd want to post that to the list, that'd be good.08:23
ToddBrandt_Mithrandir: will do08:23
agoliveirabspencer: I'm ready when you are.08:30
bspenceragoliveira: hi08:32
agoliveirabspencer: Want to talk about the apps now or later?08:33
bspencerrss reader:08:33
bspencerit would be nice to have a small one outside the browser08:33
bspencerbut I don't think it is a high priority08:33
bspencerI think we could call it post-Oct08:34
bspencerunless we know of one that just works08:34
bspencerwe'll have online readers08:34
bspencerand usually rss-reader sends you to the browser when you lcick an item08:34
agoliveiraI have the RSS reader as your second round of "must haves" do you want to change that?08:35
bspenceragoliveira: one thing we could onsider is a category of applications "works on mobile, but not ported yet"08:35
bspencerrss reader support is required, just not the external one, I would argue08:35
bspencerif the browser supports an rss reader plugin, that would be ok08:36
bspencer(or similar functionality)08:36
bspencerbut reading your page, I see a couple of links08:36
bspencerit would be cool to try those on the mobile device and see how usable they were08:36
bspencerand keep them as "help needed" items if someone wanted to jump in 08:36
agoliveiraThat's the point. So you suggest leave it up to the browser now and go for a dedicated reader laert?08:37
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kwwiibspencer: where did you get the layout file to use with the slicer?08:39
agoliveiraAbout the applications on the page, not all of them were tested on the device itself but all were on a chroot at least and worked to some useful level at least unless they had some major drawback like mobipocket.08:39
agoliveiraOr the document viewer just because it does not exist in the way we want it.08:40
bspencerright, ok.08:40
bspencerwhat was the next app to chat about?08:40
bspencerkwwii: again, sorry, but I never used the slicer :-\08:41
kwwiioh, right...I forgot08:41
bspencerI just took the end-result theme/images directory and replaced them with my own08:41
agoliveirabspencer: hold on a second. I lost my notes :)08:41
bspencerhttp://liferea.sourceforge.net/screenshot8.png  looks very nice, I have to say08:41
bspencer( agoliveira  )08:42
agoliveirabspencer: Remote desktop client08:42
agoliveirabspencer: Yes, liferea is great but needs hiuldonization08:42
bspenceragoliveira: sure, but the UI is simple08:42
bspencersorry, I'm in and out08:44
bspencerok.  remote desktop08:44
bspencerI played with vncviewer08:44
bspencermatchbox keyboard didn't work with it08:44
bspencerso that would have to be figured out.  probably matthew allum has a fix we could use08:44
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agoliveirabspencer: There's 2 things to figure out: vnc and rdesktop. Both can be put to work without much haslle as I did it on N770. Just need to know if we are going do both, none and when :)08:45
bspencerrdesktop is to windows?08:46
bspencerlooking up rdesktop ...08:46
agoliveiraRDP client08:46
bspencerok.  is it in-the-clear legal?08:46
bspencer" rdesktop was initially written by Matthew Chapman  based on various scarce documentation, wire sniffs, and trial-and-error "08:47
bspencermakes me worried08:47
bspencer(speaking with my Intel hat on, not the hacker hat)08:47
agoliveiraI can't say. In Brazil it is :)08:47
bspencerok.  let me look around.  Ideally we focus on connecting to windows desktop first, if it is possible to get a legal-in-US solution08:52
agoliveiraSure. You would need to consult your shark^H^H^H^H^H^H legal tem, I guess08:52
bspenceryeah, :)08:52
bspenceror at least wikipedia :)08:52
Mithrandirbspencer: the rdesktop protocol is specified in a pile of ISO standards.08:52
bspencerMithrandir: do you see any reason not to use it?08:52
agoliveiraMithrandir: Yes, but don't care about implement it. I won't work.08:52
bspenceragoliveira: do you know if it connect to Windows Vista and XP ? 08:52
bspencerI see NT mentioned08:52
bspencerNT terminal server is still used though I think.08:52
agoliveirabspencer: It's latest encarnation uses RDP 5 and some bits of 6 so, yes. 08:52
Mithrandiragoliveira: -EPARSE.08:52
Mithrandirbspencer: no, I thinkit's completely fine.08:52
bspenceragoliveira: let's do that08:52
agoliveirabspencer: Ok. rdesktop and/or vnc?08:52
kwwiiw00t...I got it to work :-)08:52
bspenceragoliveira: does rdesktop require something to run on Windows?08:52
bspencerif not, then it is better than making the user install vncserver on their windows box08:52
bspencer(my mom couldn't do that easily)08:52
agoliveiraIf it's a rdp server capable version of windows, no.08:52
bspenceryou probably have to configure your windows system and it only works with XP full edition, not home edition08:52
bspencermm... ok.  Well... I don't know then  08:53
bspencerit seems like a "nice-to-have" application, but also cool08:53
bspencerif it can never work on XP Home edition, then I'm not as excited about it.  At least vnc could work on all systems08:54
agoliveirabspencer: We need a GUI to it as it is a command line application. We do have tsclient we can use as a base but needs hildonization.08:54
smagoun_rdekstop was a popular demo on Pepper Linux, despite the fact it requires XP Pro, etc08:54
agoliveirabspencer: It won't work with XP home, that's for sure.08:55
smagoun_For comparison, VNC was barely on the radar08:55
bspenceragoliveira: ok.  I'm not knowledgeable enough about rdesktop to compare it to vnc.  I've only used vnc.08:55
Mithrandirrdesktop's more convenient on thin pieces of string.08:55
bspencersmagoun_: do you know if that is because of performance, usability, or just market presence?08:55
bspencerMithrandir: even compared to tightvnc ?08:55
Mithrandirbspencer: I believe so.08:56
agoliveirabspencer: RDP is supported by MS so we can take some advantages, it's usually faster, one can redirect devices, have different users/sessions, while vnc is a screen grabber/controller only.08:56
Sciribspencer: Market presence; all the marketing types walking into the Pepper booth at CES and Digital Life knew Remote Desktop was a marketing catchphrase and most had never even heard of VNC.08:56
agoliveiraThat too.08:56
bspencerSciri: ha ha.  funny world.  vnc is nice for linux hackers 08:56
bspencerok.  agoliveira just do both :P08:57
Sciribspencer: Exactly. All the Linux geeks who came to see the Pad asked for VNC but they were the minority.08:57
=== agoliveira grumbles something about big mounths...
Mithrandirbspencer: xrdp exists and works.08:57
smagoun_bspencer: I'm not sure why it was so popular, but I think people understand + are familiar with windows, so it's a way to tie the mobile device to their windows pc.08:57
bspencera guy here at work tried rdesktop and vnc and some others08:58
bspencerthere was a common issue with matchbox keyboard08:58
bspenceralthough I think he said it worked with rdesktop, not vnc08:59
agoliveiraWhen I was working in consulting, I had a costumer for whom I created a very small linux distro that in the end just started rdesktop fullscreen so he could connect to windows servers.08:59
smagoun_bspencer: People also liked that there was nothing to install (on the windows side). FWIW rdesktop performance is fine, depending on the network connection.08:59
agoliveirabspencer: Yep. Being there, done that08:59
bspencerok.  so what does it take to get rdesktop to work?08:59
agoliveirasmagoun_: You should try rdp over nx. Goes rounds around rdp alone.08:59
bspencerwhat is this "command-line interface" 09:00
agoliveirabspencer: rdesktop is a command line tool. We need agui to make it palatable.09:00
bspencerand you mentioned one09:00
agoliveiraThere's tsclient but needs hildonization.09:00
bspenceris tsclient sexy?09:00
=== bspencer goes to look for a screenshot
smagoun_agoliveira: "good enough" > spending time on the problem :)09:01
agoliveiraIt's a ripoff of the windows rdp client almost :)09:01
agoliveiraI have to check if there's nothign already done for maemo.09:01
bspencerok.  so let's move on.09:02
bspencer(btw, vnc as-is works, just isn't hildonized, which is fine for linux hackers today)09:02
agoliveiraNext: office document viewer.09:03
bspenceroh, excpet for keyboard.  I'll ping matchbox guys about keyboard.09:03
agoliveiraTight spot as there's none.09:03
bspenceroffice document viewer ...09:03
bspencerbtw we tried the Adobe PDF plugin in the browser awhile back09:03
bspencerit hung the browser and system09:03
bspencerit is a little bit BIIIIG09:03
agoliveiraFor PDF is easy.09:04
bspencerwhat document types to support?09:04
bspencerODP, DOC, PDF09:04
agoliveiraThe problem is the MS documents09:04
agoliveiraMS Office, Im eman09:04
bspenceror.. what is the extension for the standard open document format? odf?09:04
agoliveiraI don't see any easy alternative here09:04
bspencerok, that's what I meant09:04
agoliveiraodp is for presentations, I think09:05
bspencerlet's talk about usage models09:05
bspencerhow are people getting .doc's on their MIDs?09:05
agoliveiraWe could easily use abiword and gnumeric but they don't read MS docs as well as openoffice and there's nothing for powerpoint.09:05
bspenceremail or browser, probably09:05
bspencer"easily" sounds a little optimistic09:05
bspencerOO is out of the question09:06
agoliveirabspencer: They are already hildonized.09:06
bspencerso what's the belly achin about09:06
agoliveiraNeed a bit polish but works.09:06
smagoun_email or browser. MS compatibility is all the consumer cares about, we found09:06
bspencersmagoun_: you and your darn customers09:06
bspencercustomers customers customers09:06
agoliveiraCustomers are for the week.09:06
=== bspencer is reminded of Steve Balmer
agoliveiraweak :)09:06
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smagoun_bspencer: remind me how much $ intel is spending on the hardware? :)09:07
bspencerliterally hundreds of dollars ;)09:07
bspenceragoliveira: if we can use abiword, that is good09:07
=== HappyCamp_laptop hears lots of snickering in the room from bspencer's comment
bspencerit is the best we've got.09:08
SciriHappyCamp: Shhh. ;)09:08
agoliveiraIt's a plan to me but we will still lack on powerpoint area.09:08
bspencerok.  we'll have to keep looking.09:08
bspencerwhat else exists in Linux besides OO for powerpt today ?09:08
bspencerI see "java" in that url09:09
=== bspencer winces
agoliveirabspencer: Yep.09:09
smagoun_...though google ate the company. nevermind.09:10
bspencer"look at the screenshots' link does work09:10
agoliveiraI found this before but I'm not really happy to use java just for this.09:10
bspencerlet's make PPT a Priority 2 :)09:11
kwwiihehe, I figured out how the tools work, now to get the package to build09:11
agoliveiraBetter if we install ppveiwer using wine :-D09:11
=== agoliveira congratultes kwwii
bspencerkwwii: good news09:11
kwwiiagoliveira: who says that random typing won't solve a problem :p09:11
agoliveiraActually ppviewer works perfectly on wine.09:11
bspencerkwwii: we should expect a full theme then by end of day?09:11
kwwiibspencer: to be honest, I might get it done within a few hours09:12
bspencerwriting that down09:12
kwwiiunfortunately I have a meeting soon09:12
agoliveiraerasing that down...09:12
bspenceragoliveira: ok.  let's put PPT on hold and go one09:12
agoliveiraGames !09:12
agoliveiraI need to pick a few.09:13
bspencerok.  we should assign everybody to port 1 game09:13
bspencersome obvious winners:  card games, sudoku09:13
bspencerand I recently played with a little marble game that you used your finger to rotate the floor and try to get it to the other side of the maze09:14
agoliveiraI don't think we really need to port anything as most of them have their own interfaces unless you want to add like gnome-games.09:14
bspencerit would be nice with an accelerometer, but even without it was usable09:14
bspenceragoliveira: right.  some have simple menus09:14
agoliveirabspencer: I know this one. QUite coool. Problem: we don't have 3D driver yet.09:14
bspencerit would be very nice to get at least one 3D game09:14
bspenceragoliveira: we do on the Samsung :)09:14
agoliveiraOh... sure09:15
agoliveiraIf this is ok to you, I'm fine with it.09:15
bspenceryeah.  I'll commit to providing at least one game by October09:15
agoliveiraActually the 3D games is the easiest one: just run it fullscreen :)09:16
bspencerI played a quake version in Linux a couple years ago.  Not sure if it was legal or open source09:16
agoliveiraMaybe we should stick with true freeones like tuxracer, etc09:17
agoliveiraThere's some very new and coll ones like battle tanks09:17
agoliveiraOr armagetron.09:18
bspenceryeah, I heard of armegetron09:18
bspencerI did a "top 10 linux open source games" or something query once09:18
bspencerand that was on the list09:18
agoliveirabzflag would be nice too.09:18
agoliveiraOne of my favorites I might add :)09:18
bspenceragoliveira: it would be cool if we could get games that played well with two mids09:18
bspenceror MID+GPS09:18
agoliveirabzflag could.09:19
agoliveiraarmagetron too09:19
bspenceryeah.  is that like steal the flag09:19
bspencersteal the flag = game where you run around a field and try to capture the other team's flag before they find and capture yours09:19
agoliveirabzflag? It has a CTF mode but it's more like a battle09:19
bspencerwhere you hit the other guy with your MID until he collapses?09:20
smagoun_tux racer might be better for the target market than bzflag + other shooters (though it looks like TR development has slowed/stopped?)09:20
bspenceragoliveira: anything else important about apps?09:20
kylemdo the devices have a gyroscope like the ibm hdaps? tuxracer could be a lot of fun if so. ;-P09:20
bspencerkylem: up to the ODM 09:20
agoliveirasmagoun_: I don't like very much games without lots of blood, gore and senseless violence so I can't say :)09:20
bspencerI've heard of some considering accelerometers or similar as well as GPS, but I don't know for sure09:21
agoliveirakylem: That would be cool09:21
agoliveiraYou can take a look at the my sugestions in the apps page09:22
bspenceragoliveira: about the camera09:22
agoliveiraANy educational games, parhapos?09:23
bspenceragoliveira: I did a little work to try and get specs for the Samsung camera09:23
agoliveirabspencer: Great. Got them?09:23
bspencerbut I couldn't get much response from Vimicro.09:23
=== agoliveira curses...
bspencerI got response, just not anything like "sure, here's the specs"09:23
bspencermore like "if you are insterested in making a product in the future, give us a call"09:23
bspencereducation games 09:24
agoliveiraI think that is not a big problem to make it work but may take some time tough09:24
agoliveiraThe camera should have a very similar design of the others from the manufacturer.09:24
bspencerthe camera should use UVC instead of "Vendor specific"09:25
bspencerthen we wouldn't need the specs09:25
agoliveirabspencer: In a perfect world it would :)09:25
bspencerI always thought MID would be great as a quizing tool09:25
bspencer(educational topic)09:26
bspencerlike cue-cards 09:26
bspencerand simple to write, etc.09:26
bspencerI've played the Nintendo Brain quizzer game09:26
=== agoliveira can't find a wii to buy in US :(
bspencerit is kind of fun in a simple way.  Great for kids (and makes moms happy)09:26
bspenceragoliveira: ah, really?09:27
bspenceryou've got $400 to spend and no place to spend it09:27
agoliveirahttp://www.gcompris.net/ have a lot of them but I don't know how good they are09:27
agoliveirabspencer: No, less than that :)09:27
bspenceragoliveira: ok.  going to take off for a few unless you have something09:29
agoliveiraNo. It's basicaly that. We can polish that later if more shows up.09:29
agoliveiraI'll write an email later and post on the ML and you can bash me over it if I misunderstood anything, ok?09:30
bspenceragoliveira: if we get abiword, camera, rdesktop UI, a few games ... that's pretty good for October09:30
bspencer(along with browser, media player, chat, calc, and some PIM apps)09:31
agoliveiraThe camera only depends (mostly) of the driver.09:31
agoliveiraThe rest is feasible09:31
bspenceragoliveira: yeah, we have been using a plugin-USB camera to play with it09:31
agoliveiracheatter :)09:31
bspencercatch ya later09:31
agoliveiraOk, bye09:32
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kwwiiagoliveira: you don't happen to know which package I need to install to get svn on Gutsy do you?09:40
kwwiiforget that09:40
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kwwiidouble w00t - the package built10:01
kwwiibspencer: write that back down, since I already did it10:01
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kwwiisoooo...is there a special usplash theme package for the mobile stuff?10:37
mjg59kwwii: Not currently10:38
kwwiimjg59: hrm, I was thinking about adding a config part for the Q1 resolution, any reason that would mess things up?10:38
kwwiimess things up for the other platforms, I mean10:39
mjg59Shouldn't, no10:39
mjg59But we can't use the Q1's native resolution10:39
mjg59It's not a vesa resolution10:40
kwwiimjg59: do you know which resolution it is using and/or is there a way to fix the scaling being currently done?10:40
mjg59Theres no way to avoid the scaling10:40
mjg59What's the res on the Q1 again? 1280x600?10:40
mjg59800x600 will be the closest, then10:41
kwwiithat makes my job a bit easier...I'll wait until someone tells me to change something then10:41
Mithrandir1024x600, iirc10:42
mjg59Oh, same issue10:44
kwwiioops, sorry, I misread the 128010:45
kwwiiMithrandir: should I put the test theme in launchpad? if so, can someone see that it is included and pointed to as default theme?10:45
Mithrandirit's a different theme than the stock usplash theme?  Sure, LP is fine, and we can take it from there.10:46
kwwiiMithrandir: sorry, I meant the hildon theme I just created10:47
Mithrandirsame process; LP's fine.10:47
kwwiiMithrandir: you can download it and test it from the link I posted above if you want to test it10:47
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kwwiiok, cool10:47
Mithrandirkwwii: I'm utterly, utterly overloaded right now, but I'll do it next week.10:50
kwwiiMithrandir: no worries10:52
kwwiiI'll bug bob as well10:53
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MithrandirI'm sure you two will be able to get good results between the two of you11:04
kwwiiyeah, now that the theme itself is ready the ball is in his court :-)11:05
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kwwiisoooo...anyone know where the default theme is set? (not in gconf, that much is clear)11:19
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kwwiilol, the sound of one hand clapping11:32
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kwwiihrm, it appears we need hildon-theme-cacher to be able to install any other theme debs anyway11:42
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ian_brasilkwwii: i tested the deb ...i got dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of hildon-theme-oranblak:12:23
ian_brasil hildon-theme-oranblak depends on hildon-theme-cacher; however:12:23
ian_brasil  Package hildon-theme-cacher is not installed.12:23
ian_brasilso it needs hildon-theme-cache ;)12:24
kwwiiian_brasil: yeah, it is not in the repo either12:24
kwwiiian_brasil: luckily the process was straight-forward once I figured it out12:25
kwwiialthough the tools depend on svn...there are several points we will have to tweak12:25
ian_brasili am looking at the images now ..it looks awesome but i see some maemo images in there ??12:28
ian_brasilqgn_plat_screen_calibration.png for example12:30
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kwwiiian_brasil: yeah, they are the ones we do not use anyway12:32
kwwiiian_brasil: we have a long way to go on the themeing front, I am just happy that I can even build the theme now12:32
kwwiinobody could tell me how to do it (not even the nokia guys)...on monday I'll have a long discussion with the nokia people when they get their documentation done12:33
kwwiithe clock parts (digital and analog, etc.) are also not uses12:33
kwwiiI think that I am the only person who knows how far behind we are on the themeing stuff12:34
ian_brasilgood luck !! ...i think there is some deep voodoo involved with the theme creation too...maximum respect for going front line with this i reckon12:35
kwwiiyeah, I kinda feel like a lone soldier :p12:37
ian_brasilwell, i think part of the problem is that when someone is used to developing 'closed source' it is easy not to document or to just leave hard coded paths and so on12:44
ian_brasilwhich means it is hard fpr others to work out what is going on12:46
kwwiiyepp, definitely12:46
kwwiiand I think that a lot of those working on themeing on this channel would like to keep it that way 12:47
kwwiiwell, this project, not just this channel12:47
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kwwiiI think it has more to do with a lack of understanding than anything else12:48
ian_brasilor commercial pressures to just get it out the door...software is art right, not bean counting ! 12:51
kwwiiyeah, but it could be so much easier...it seems that commercial efforts like to push off the artwork side and then get it done in a rush at the end without thinking about how to make it easy for others12:54
kwwiithey seem to be used to doing things the hard way when it comes to artwork because they simply do not understand it12:54
kwwiijust throw some money at it at the end and everything is good12:55
kwwiiin the same sense, they are not ready to listen to good advice because they are "busy doing other things"12:56
kwwiisilly, really12:56
kwwiianyway...time for bed here12:59
ian_brasilok..this could also be seen as a pretty good opportunity to show how it should be done too though..go kwwii ;)12:59
kwwiiwell, in the end we have to do it the right way no matter what... I do not think that it will be acceptable otherwise01:02
kwwiijust means I have a lot of work :-)01:02
=== ian_brasil goes to make coffee now you mentioned work
=== kwwii is going to bed

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