[07:02] (bspencer_/#ubuntu-mobile) ok.  I can chat about this offline
[07:02] (rustyl_/#ubuntu-mobile) making each commit into a patch is not very useful
[07:02] (rustyl_/#ubuntu-mobile) it would be eaiser to create one big patch and just split it up by hand
[07:03] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) bspencer_: unsure if we have answered your question well?
[07:03] (rustyl_/#ubuntu-mobile) another option is to only check in patches into the debian/patches dir
[07:04] <bspencer_> rustyl_: yes, that sounds like what I'd like to do
[07:04] <Mithrandir> I really despise keeping patches in revision control systems, but I know some people like it.
[07:04] <bspencer_> :)
[07:04] <rustyl_> the reality is that different projects deal with this in different ways
[07:04] <bspencer_> it is temporary and reminds us that these need to be removed soon
[07:04] <bspencer_> so it annoys us that they are there, and we ask about them all the time
[07:04] <bspencer_> and we know how our branch is different from upstream and can point to the changes at any time
[07:05] <rustyl_> the worse thing about this approach is when some of your developers don't understand the concept, and then go and directly edit the source files
[07:06] <bspencer_> rustyl_: Mithrandir I'll do what you suggest.  if we don't want to draga round patch files, I'll keep track of the changes elsewhere and just commit to the trunk.
[07:06] <Mithrandir> bspencer_: sounds good to me.
[07:06] <Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  App selection
[07:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  App selection 
[07:06] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: your item
[07:06] <agoliveira> Sure.
[07:07] <agoliveira> We still have a few points we need to iron out regarding to applications.
[07:07] <agoliveira> For instance: RSS reader. Should we use a separate one or a browser or email plugin?
[07:07] <bspencer> agoliveira: good Q
[07:07] <bspencer> we will have online RSS readers
[07:07] <bspencer> and there is even a menu item for it in the mozilla browser
[07:08] <bspencer> but that means they have to open the browser to read it
[07:08] <agoliveira> I don't think we should start a discussion here as it would take forever so I suggest that you take a good hard look here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserApplications and take this to the mailing list.
[07:09] <agoliveira> That's becasue RSS is just one point :)
[07:09] <bspencer> agoliveira: ok.  but a chat about it would be good (not now)
[07:09] <bspencer> mailing list sometimes takes a long time to resolve for small points
[07:09] <agoliveira> We can make something specific, no problem.
[07:09] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: which apps are the ones you are wondering about?
[07:09] <agoliveira> bspencer: Agree
[07:10] <agoliveira> A few point then...
[07:10] <agoliveira> - Remote desktop client. I can prepare rdesktop and vnc but a few questions we need to iron out like, should they have panning? Should they work fullscreen only?
[07:10] <agoliveira> - RSS reader - Needed to decide which one. 
[07:10] <agoliveira> - Office document viewer - There's none we can use directly, we need to discuss if we are going to do something about it like the options I proposed on the doc or not.
[07:10] <agoliveira> - Games? Which ones exactly.
[07:11] <bspencer> I have opinions about all those
[07:11] <bspencer> which we can chat about after?
[07:11] <agoliveira> Cool :) And why they aren 't on the wiki page? ;)
[07:11] <agoliveira> Sure
[07:11] <bspencer> unless Mithrandir is eager to chat now :)
[07:11] <Mithrandir> after the meeting sounds like a plan to me.
[07:12] <Mithrandir> we here in boston probably want a 30-minute break or so to catch lunch.
[07:12] <bspencer> agoliveira: sorry about my not commenting on wiki.  post the link here?
[07:12] <Mithrandir> (after the meeting)
[07:12] <bspencer> agoliveira: probably ready to eat too
[07:12] <agoliveira> bspencer: Sure https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserApplications
[07:12] <bspencer> agoliveira: do you want to sync up in an hour ?
[07:13] <agoliveira> bspencer: No problem.
[07:13] <bspencer> (around 11:30am PDT) ?
[07:13] <bspencer> (10:15 am PDT now)
[07:13] <agoliveira> Deal
[07:13] <Mithrandir> I have one agenda item about moblin.org vs ubuntu-mobile and patches and such, so let's do that, then end the meeting, unless anybody else has more stuff.
[07:13] <Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  moblin.org, ubuntu-mobile, patches and such.
[07:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  moblin.org, ubuntu-mobile, patches and such. 
[07:14] <Mithrandir> so, we're currently at a sprint where we ended up having a bunch of issues because hildon-desktop on moblin had added a plugin API which didn't exist in Ubuntu
[07:14] <Mithrandir> it's quite crucial that we don't go about modifying upstream projects in a way that changes the public API.
[07:15] <Mithrandir> that won't gain us friends, and we end up with crazy problems when mixing and matching seemingly-compatible components.
[07:16] <Mithrandir> I'm taking this up here so everybody sees it, I think we've already talked through it and are in agreement to avoid doing it in the future.
[07:16] <HappyCamp_laptop> Mithrandir: you want to make a note of that in the log?
[07:16] <Mithrandir> [AGREED]  don't change upstream APIs unless in coordination with upstream.
[07:16] <MootBot> AGREED received:  don't change upstream APIs unless in coordination with upstream. 
[07:16] <bspencer> is the issue that we changed the public API, or that there were changes on moblin that weren't found in UME and broke the build?
[07:17] <HappyCamp_laptop> kind of both, I think
[07:17] <Mithrandir> it broke at runtime, not at build.
[07:17] <bspencer> because just not changing the public API won't help the build problem
[07:17] <Mithrandir> the former is really the biggest problem, since the latter wouldn't have happened without the former.
[07:18] <Mithrandir> it wasn't a build problem, it was a runtime problem where the "prev" button in the marquee would go down in flames with an unresolved symbol.
[07:18] <Mithrandir> (there might have been other problems too, but in this case, that was the problem)
[07:18] <bspencer> yeah.  not good
[07:18] <Mithrandir> if upstream has taken a patch to add an API, it's fine, even if it's not in a released version.
[07:19] <bfiller_> just so I'm clear, the moblin version of hildon-desktop is going away and it will only be hosted on launchpad. correct?
[07:19] <bspencer> bfiller_: gone
[07:19] <Mithrandir> there is no moblin version of hildon-desktop.
[07:19] <Mithrandir> it's already gone.
[07:20] <bfiller_> thanks
[07:20] <bspencer> hildon-desktop was only in moblin.org temporarily until we could get our patches upstream
[07:20] <bfiller_> bspencer: got it
[07:20] <bspencer> but obviously we didn't get them there soon enough :)
[07:20] <Mithrandir> anybody got any more agenda items, or can we adjourn?
[07:21] <Mithrandir> adjourned, then.
[07:21] <Mithrandir> #endmeeting
[07:21] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:13.
[07:21] <Mithrandir> woo
[07:21] <Mithrandir> only 80 minutes or so.
[07:21] <Mithrandir> lunch!
[07:22] <bfiller_> bspencer, rusty: want to talk about the flash stuff now?
[07:22] <bspencer> I would if rustyl_  is still here
[07:22] <patm> rustyl_, I have a  question about SDIO
[07:23] <rob_moblin> patm: what's the question?
[07:23] <rustyl_> i'm hear
[07:23] <patm> we are having trouble with SD memory cards with the latest patches applied
[07:23] <patm> our SDIO wifi card works but not SD cards
[07:24] <patm> the mmc_core module seems to conflict
[07:24] <rustyl_> bfiller_, i'm reading the doc you sent out
[07:24] <bspencer> bfiller_: I'm reading your doc
[07:24] <rob_moblin> patm: how so?
[07:25] <bfiller_> ok, we can talk after you're done
[07:25] <rustyl_> bfiller_, have you seen how application starting works now?
[07:25] <patm> the driver will not load unless we remove the mmc_core
[07:25] <rob_moblin> patm: do you have both MMC and MSS installed at the same time?
[07:25] <bfiller_> rusty: yes I have. I realize it's slightly different
[07:25] <bfiller_> rusty: I did have a question about it though
[07:26] <rustyl_> bfiller_, i like the idea of not having flash hard coded with exec commands
[07:26] <rob_moblin> patm: MSS is a replacement for the MMC stack that's in the kernel by default. it's an either or option
[07:26] <bfiller_> rusty: agree
[07:26] <patm> ok
[07:26] <patm> when we have just mss, sd cards do not work
[07:26] <bfiller_> rusty: looks like you are storing the index into the array in the flash movie
[07:27] <bfiller_> only problem we hit in our case is that the flash movie has hard coded apps
[07:27] <rustyl_> bfiller_, yeap.... then all the flash content needs to do is say 'start #3'
[07:27] <rob_moblin> patm: our focus right now is NOT to on MSS -- we want to move to Pierre Ossman's new SDIO stack
[07:27] <rustyl_> bfiller_, all you need to do is remove the hard coded apps, and replace that with a set of desktop files that result in the same behavior
[07:28] <patm> rob_moblin, RIght, I understand
[07:28] <patm> rob_moblin, wondered if it was a known issue or something to do with our environment
[07:28] <bfiller_> if the we don't use the addApp() to add the movie dynamcially to flash, how does the movie know what the corresponding index is?
[07:29] <rustyl_> bfiller_, the idea is that the flash content is adding the apps dynamically
[07:30] <rob_moblin> patm: we've seen that some SD cards work and others don't
[07:30] <rob_moblin> patm: we've also seen even with the MMC stack, some SD cards work and other don't
[07:30] <rustyl_> bfiller_, quick quesion...
[07:30] <bfiller_> rusty: I think that is a good idea. Just not exactly sure how to modify the customer's movie to do this.
[07:30] <patm> rob_moblin, in that case let me do some further testing, thanx
[07:31] <rustyl_> bfiller_, are you guys stuck with a flash based UI... do you have the ability to choose a different technology?
[07:31] <bfiller_> rusty: for this particular customer, we're stuck with flash. They are insistent with using it
[07:31] <rustyl_> bfiller_, i am very conserned about battery usage
[07:32] <bfiller_> rusty: yes, we've raised that issue
[07:32] <rob_moblin> patm: we were also thinking there might be a problem with the crown beach board w.r.t. to SD cards, but if you're seeing different results on your non-crown beach HW it could be a SW issue
[07:32] <rustyl_> bfiller_, unless we can somehow stop the flash content while it is not visible, then the adobe flash implementation will never let the cpu go idle for long enough to get any benifit from all the new cpu mobile technologies
[07:33] <patm> rob_moblin, the customer reported this, but I have not tried recently, I will try their dev board now
[07:33] <bspencer> rustyl_: we should get someone good at flash to push that theory
[07:33] <rob_moblin> patm: ok
[07:33] <bfiller_> rusty: how do the desktop files in /usr/share/mobile-basic-flash/applications get installed there?
[07:33] <bspencer> and make the most basic flash program and see if it isn't our flash
[07:33] <bspencer> rustyl_: have you tried other flash programs that are static?
[07:33] <bfiller_> I was expecting the home plugin to read the desktop files out of /usr/share/applications
[07:33] <rustyl_> bfiller_, the idea is that an applicatino that wanted to be presented in the UI would add it's own desktop file to that location
[07:34] <bspencer> bfiller_: we didn't want to change the default applications .desktop content.  For example, we don't want to show Python, though there may be a .desktop file for it
[07:34] <bspencer> in /usr/share/applications
[07:34] <bfiller_> rusty, bspencer: I understand
[07:35] <patm> rustyl_, it needs to be a more standard folder not tied to the flash ui
[07:35] <bspencer> I do think it would be nice to have it located in /etc/mobile-ui/applications  (or a symlink or something)
[07:35] <bspencer> and every UI would look there, regardless of whether it was written in flash or other
[07:35] <bspencer> but that's just brainstorming
[07:35] <rustyl_> bspencer, bfiller_ ...although, we could look for a new entry (like stuff under ['Hildon Home'] )
[07:35] <patm> right, I just installed some new apps that need to have their rules changed to work
[07:36] <bspencer> maybe /usr/share/applications/mobile-ui
[07:36] <bspencer> or mobile-home
[07:36] <bfiller_> rustyl_: so does the mobile-basic-flash deb package current install those dekstop files?
[07:36] <rustyl_> yes
[07:37] <rustyl_> the other problem we have is dictating order of the icons
[07:37] <bspencer> we need to create an "application requirements list" 
[07:37] <bspencer> applications should include creation of this item.  (yes, ordering is also an issue)
[07:37] <patm> looks like you are using the numbered prefix for ordering
[07:37] <rustyl_> right now we just send down the array of apps as they desktop entries are found 
[07:38] <bspencer> btw, ordering may be changed by end user.  Also, applications could be grouped into category.  The design should accomodate these things.
[07:38] <patm> right our customer has defined a grouping
[07:38] <bfiller_> bspencer: what are the number prefixes used for?
[07:38] <bspencer> order
[07:38] <bspencer> :-\
[07:39] <bspencer> that is the order they will be represented in the current UI, left-to-right
[07:39] <bfiller_> bspencer: that's what I thought
[07:39] <rustyl_> actually, it's the order of the index entryies, which the flash content translates into a left-to-right icon ordering
[07:39] <rustyl_> we could add a desktop entry for group
[07:39] <patm> who can write up the requirements and a proposal?
[07:40] <bspencer> rustyl_ and I will talk about it
[07:40] <bspencer> and send out something 
[07:40] <patm> great
[07:40] <rustyl_> actually
[07:40] <bspencer> or
[07:40] <rustyl_> i don't think that is the best way
[07:40] <rustyl_> since we have our existing flash content that works (for some degree of work)...
[07:41] <patm> oh oh
[07:41] <rustyl_> what we need are requirements from other people trying to make the UI work for different flash content
[07:41] <rustyl_> like what is coming out here
[07:41] <bfiller_> I know our customer will require grouping of apps
[07:41] <bspencer> can we list them here briefly (the ones we know) ?
[07:41] <bfiller_> so I think that is important
[07:41] <bspencer>  - req1) grouping
[07:41] <rustyl_> for example... what if you don't have a slider concept... how do you deal with that?
[07:41] <lenkawell>  a non-flash home page?
[07:42] <bspencer>  - req2) ordering by customer
[07:42] <bspencer>  - req3) ordering by end-user
[07:42] <bspencer>  - req 4) non-flash UI home page accomodated
[07:42] <patm> multiple themes?
[07:42] <bspencer> rustyl_: yes, in that case the ordering can be ignored, but maybe grouping is used
[07:42] <bspencer> rustyl_: (if there is no slider, for example)
[07:43] <bspencer> patm: what do you mean?  It should support theming?
[07:43] <bfiller_> rusty: back to the index thing. Could we use an invented applicationId as the key rather than an array index?
[07:43] <patm> icon needs to play along with it
[07:43] <bfiller_> rusty: the appId could be stored in the desktop file
[07:44] <bfiller_> rusty: then the flash movie doesn't need to necessary support dynamically adding apps
[07:44] <bspencer> patm: the location of the icons is another topic  -- good point.  Actually the theme will include:   /usr/share/theme/<theme definition with theme images, but not icons>  AND /usr/share/icons/<theme icons>
[07:45] <patm> bspencer, so the icons go to /usr/share/icons ? but they do not today?
[07:45] <bspencer> patm: right
[07:45] <bspencer> they do not today
[07:45] <bspencer> (well, rustyl_ may have changed that)
[07:45] <rustyl_> nope
[07:46] <bspencer> originally the icons were in /usr/share/mobile-basic-flash/icons
[07:46] <kwwii> they should probably go in /usr/share/icons/<THEME>
[07:46] <bspencer> kwwii:  yes  that is what I meant to say
[07:46] <patm> sounds good
[07:46] <bspencer> we just don't have a theme yet :)    ( kwwii : btw, how does an application get the name of the current theme ? )
[07:47] <rustyl_> via the environment
[07:47] <bfiller_> bspencer, rustyl_: be right back, have to run to caf. before it closes
[07:47] <bspencer> rustyl_: from a matchbox-wm method ?
[07:47] <bspencer> bfiller_: k
[07:48] <bspencer>  - req5) home UI uses current theme for icons and default background
[07:49] <bspencer>  - req6) user can change the default background using control-panel applet for configuring desktop   (or a shortcut on the home screen UI which does the same)
[07:49] <rustyl_> i think i need to think on this a bit
[07:49] <kwwii> bspencer: it is a system variable (probably) set in gtkrc
[07:49] <kwwii> bspencer: once we have a test theme a lot of this will become much clearer I assume
[07:50] <kwwii> I looked into using the theme-maker java app to create a theme but the template file is in a totally different order for that
[07:50] <kwwii> so I gave up
[07:50] <bspencer> kwwii: I was going to hack a little on hildon-theme-mobile-basic to add icons for a temporary thing, so we could pull them into the UI and get the UI home screen working right
[07:51] <kwwii> bspencer: sounds good for the short-term
[07:51] <bspencer> kwwii: yeah, still not a real theme
[07:51] <kwwii> bspencer: I was going to update the pics for the top-bar as well...I'll probably be pinging you about that sometime soon
[07:52] <bspencer> sounds good
[07:52] <kwwii> bspencer: it seems that in the next few weeks we need to have something that looks halfway like we want it to show to people
[07:52] <bfiller_> I'm back
[07:53] <bspencer> kwwii: agreed.  
[07:54] <bfiller_> bspencer, rustyl_: any comments about the events doc?
[07:55] <rustyl_> bfiller_, so you have a set of predefined events
[07:56] <bfiller_> rustyl_: that's what we were thinking for this particular customer. Could be made more generic though.
[07:56] <bspencer> bfiller_: how does the javascript send a dbus event?
[07:57] <bfiller_> bspencer: it doesn't
[07:57] <bspencer> ok.  I thought I was missing something
[07:57] <bfiller_> bspencer: home plugin gets a dbus event and calls a javascript function umeEvent() passing it the appropriate event
[07:58] <bspencer> home plugin is what -- gtkmozembed ?
[07:58] <bspencer> like now?
[07:58] <bfiller_> bspencer: yes
[07:58] <bspencer> sorry -- I'm looking at ht epicture and trying to understand it
[07:58] <bfiller_> bspencer: the change would be the home plugin would listen for appropriate dbus signals and then forward to the flash movie
[07:58] <bspencer> so do we need an xpcom interface for javascript--> C code --> dbus event ?
[07:59] <bspencer> that is part of the gtkmozembed plugin ?
[07:59] <rustyl_> bspencer, what are you asking?
[07:59] <rustyl_> no need for a new xpcom interface
[07:59] <bspencer> how does the flash send a dbus event
[07:59] <rustyl_> all the native work is done in our container
[07:59] <bspencer> what are the steps
[08:00] <rustyl_> js just acts as a glue layer between the flash content and our container
[08:00] <bfiller_> bspencer: here is the flow 1) flash movie calls umeEnable() function which tells container to start listening for a predefined set of events 2) when container (plugin) gets events, it delivers them to flash movie via javascript call
[08:01] <bspencer> ok.  the container is the C code sending/receiving dbus events.  So javascript is making an "exec" call ?  
[08:01] <rustyl_> bspencer, if you look at the current code, you will see how we transfer data back and forth
[08:01] <bfiller_> flash movie can also ask for specific property via umeGetProperty()
[08:01] <bspencer> look at the code?  inconceivable.  ok.   
[08:02] <bfiller_> bspencer: C code uses gtkmozembed to call a know javascript function in the flash_home.html page passing it the information about the event
[08:12] <bfiller_> bspencer, rustyl_: when I get more of the event interaction coded in the mobile-basic-flash-plugin I will send you diffs to take a look at
[08:22] <Mithrandir> rustyl_: please don't use a different directory for the .desktop files, but rather use the OnlyShowIn/NotShowIn keys in the .desktop files already existing.
[08:22] <ToddBrandt_> Mithrandir: sorry I missed the meeting earlier, were there any hot topics for me?
[08:23] <Mithrandir> ToddBrandt_: we'd liked to have had a status update on the control panel applets, so if you'd want to post that to the list, that'd be good.
[08:23] <ToddBrandt_> Mithrandir: will do
[08:23] <Mithrandir> thanks
[08:30] <agoliveira> bspencer: I'm ready when you are.
[08:32] <bspencer> agoliveira: hi
[08:33] <agoliveira> bspencer: Want to talk about the apps now or later?
[08:33] <bspencer> now
[08:33] <agoliveira> Cool.
[08:33] <bspencer> rss reader:
[08:33] <bspencer> it would be nice to have a small one outside the browser
[08:33] <bspencer> but I don't think it is a high priority
[08:34] <bspencer> I think we could call it post-Oct
[08:34] <bspencer> unless we know of one that just works
[08:34] <bspencer> we'll have online readers
[08:34] <bspencer> and usually rss-reader sends you to the browser when you lcick an item
[08:35] <agoliveira> I have the RSS reader as your second round of "must haves" do you want to change that?
[08:35] <bspencer> agoliveira: one thing we could onsider is a category of applications "works on mobile, but not ported yet"
[08:35] <bspencer> rss reader support is required, just not the external one, I would argue
[08:36] <agoliveira> Ok.
[08:36] <bspencer> if the browser supports an rss reader plugin, that would be ok
[08:36] <bspencer> (or similar functionality)
[08:36] <bspencer> but reading your page, I see a couple of links
[08:36] <bspencer> it would be cool to try those on the mobile device and see how usable they were
[08:36] <bspencer> and keep them as "help needed" items if someone wanted to jump in 
[08:37] <agoliveira> That's the point. So you suggest leave it up to the browser now and go for a dedicated reader laert?
[08:37] <agoliveira> later
[08:39] <bspencer> yeah
[08:39] <kwwii> bspencer: where did you get the layout file to use with the slicer?
[08:39] <agoliveira> About the applications on the page, not all of them were tested on the device itself but all were on a chroot at least and worked to some useful level at least unless they had some major drawback like mobipocket.
[08:40] <agoliveira> Or the document viewer just because it does not exist in the way we want it.
[08:40] <bspencer> right, ok.
[08:40] <bspencer> what was the next app to chat about?
[08:41] <bspencer> kwwii: again, sorry, but I never used the slicer :-\
[08:41] <kwwii> oh, right...I forgot
[08:41] <bspencer> I just took the end-result theme/images directory and replaced them with my own
[08:41] <agoliveira> bspencer: hold on a second. I lost my notes :)
[08:41] <bspencer> http://liferea.sourceforge.net/screenshot8.png  looks very nice, I have to say
[08:42] <bspencer> ( agoliveira  )
[08:42] <agoliveira> bspencer: Remote desktop client
[08:42] <bspencer> aaright
[08:42] <agoliveira> bspencer: Yes, liferea is great but needs hiuldonization
[08:42] <bspencer> ooops
[08:42] <bspencer> agoliveira: sure, but the UI is simple
[08:43] <agoliveira> Indeed.
[08:44] <bspencer> sorry, I'm in and out
[08:44] <bspencer> ok.  remote desktop
[08:44] <bspencer> I played with vncviewer
[08:44] <bspencer> matchbox keyboard didn't work with it
[08:44] <bspencer> so that would have to be figured out.  probably matthew allum has a fix we could use
[08:45] <agoliveira> bspencer: There's 2 things to figure out: vnc and rdesktop. Both can be put to work without much haslle as I did it on N770. Just need to know if we are going do both, none and when :)
[08:46] <bspencer> rdesktop is to windows?
[08:46] <bspencer> looking up rdesktop ...
[08:46] <agoliveira> Yep
[08:46] <agoliveira> RDP client
[08:46] <bspencer> ok.  is it in-the-clear legal?
[08:47] <bspencer> " rdesktop was initially written by Matthew Chapman  based on various scarce documentation, wire sniffs, and trial-and-error "
[08:47] <bspencer> makes me worried
[08:47] <bspencer> (speaking with my Intel hat on, not the hacker hat)
[08:47] <agoliveira> I can't say. In Brazil it is :)
[08:52] <bspencer> ok.  let me look around.  Ideally we focus on connecting to windows desktop first, if it is possible to get a legal-in-US solution
[08:52] <agoliveira> Sure. You would need to consult your shark^H^H^H^H^H^H legal tem, I guess
[08:52] <agoliveira> team
[08:52] <bspencer> yeah, :)
[08:52] <bspencer> or at least wikipedia :)
[08:52] <Mithrandir> bspencer: the rdesktop protocol is specified in a pile of ISO standards.
[08:52] <bspencer> Mithrandir: do you see any reason not to use it?
[08:52] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Yes, but don't care about implement it. I won't work.
[08:52] <bspencer> agoliveira: do you know if it connect to Windows Vista and XP ? 
[08:52] <bspencer> I see NT mentioned
[08:52] <bspencer> NT terminal server is still used though I think.
[08:52] <agoliveira> bspencer: It's latest encarnation uses RDP 5 and some bits of 6 so, yes. 
[08:52] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: -EPARSE.
[08:52] <Mithrandir> bspencer: no, I thinkit's completely fine.
[08:52] <bspencer> agoliveira: let's do that
[08:52] <agoliveira> bspencer: Ok. rdesktop and/or vnc?
[08:52] <kwwii> w00t...I got it to work :-)
[08:52] <bspencer> agoliveira: does rdesktop require something to run on Windows?
[08:52] <bspencer> if not, then it is better than making the user install vncserver on their windows box
[08:52] <bspencer> (my mom couldn't do that easily)
[08:52] <agoliveira> If it's a rdp server capable version of windows, no.
[08:52] <bspencer> you probably have to configure your windows system and it only works with XP full edition, not home edition
[08:52] <agoliveira> Exactly
[08:53] <bspencer> mm... ok.  Well... I don't know then  
[08:53] <bspencer> it seems like a "nice-to-have" application, but also cool
[08:54] <bspencer> if it can never work on XP Home edition, then I'm not as excited about it.  At least vnc could work on all systems
[08:54] <agoliveira> bspencer: We need a GUI to it as it is a command line application. We do have tsclient we can use as a base but needs hildonization.
[08:54] <smagoun_> rdekstop was a popular demo on Pepper Linux, despite the fact it requires XP Pro, etc
[08:55] <agoliveira> bspencer: It won't work with XP home, that's for sure.
[08:55] <smagoun_> For comparison, VNC was barely on the radar
[08:55] <bspencer> agoliveira: ok.  I'm not knowledgeable enough about rdesktop to compare it to vnc.  I've only used vnc.
[08:55] <Mithrandir> rdesktop's more convenient on thin pieces of string.
[08:55] <bspencer> smagoun_: do you know if that is because of performance, usability, or just market presence?
[08:55] <bspencer> Mithrandir: even compared to tightvnc ?
[08:56] <Mithrandir> bspencer: I believe so.
[08:56] <agoliveira> bspencer: RDP is supported by MS so we can take some advantages, it's usually faster, one can redirect devices, have different users/sessions, while vnc is a screen grabber/controller only.
[08:56] <Sciri> bspencer: Market presence; all the marketing types walking into the Pepper booth at CES and Digital Life knew Remote Desktop was a marketing catchphrase and most had never even heard of VNC.
[08:56] <agoliveira> That too.
[08:56] <bspencer> Sciri: ha ha.  funny world.  vnc is nice for linux hackers 
[08:57] <bspencer> ok.  agoliveira just do both :P
[08:57] <Sciri> bspencer: Exactly. All the Linux geeks who came to see the Pad asked for VNC but they were the minority.
[08:57] <Mithrandir> bspencer: xrdp exists and works.
[08:57] <smagoun_> bspencer: I'm not sure why it was so popular, but I think people understand + are familiar with windows, so it's a way to tie the mobile device to their windows pc.
[08:58] <bspencer> a guy here at work tried rdesktop and vnc and some others
[08:58] <bspencer> there was a common issue with matchbox keyboard
[08:59] <bspencer> although I think he said it worked with rdesktop, not vnc
[08:59] <agoliveira> When I was working in consulting, I had a costumer for whom I created a very small linux distro that in the end just started rdesktop fullscreen so he could connect to windows servers.
[08:59] <bspencer> lol
[08:59] <smagoun_> bspencer: People also liked that there was nothing to install (on the windows side). FWIW rdesktop performance is fine, depending on the network connection.
[08:59] <agoliveira> bspencer: Yep. Being there, done that
[08:59] <bspencer> ok.  so what does it take to get rdesktop to work?
[08:59] <agoliveira> smagoun_: You should try rdp over nx. Goes rounds around rdp alone.
[09:00] <bspencer> what is this "command-line interface" 
[09:00] <agoliveira> bspencer: rdesktop is a command line tool. We need agui to make it palatable.
[09:00] <bspencer> and you mentioned one
[09:00] <agoliveira> There's tsclient but needs hildonization.
[09:00] <bspencer> is tsclient sexy?
[09:01] <smagoun_> agoliveira: "good enough" > spending time on the problem :)
[09:01] <agoliveira> It's a ripoff of the windows rdp client almost :)
[09:01] <agoliveira> I have to check if there's nothign already done for maemo.
[09:02] <bspencer> ok.  so let's move on.
[09:02] <agoliveira> Cool.
[09:02] <bspencer> (btw, vnc as-is works, just isn't hildonized, which is fine for linux hackers today)
[09:03] <agoliveira> Fine
[09:03] <agoliveira> Next: office document viewer.
[09:03] <bspencer> oh, excpet for keyboard.  I'll ping matchbox guys about keyboard.
[09:03] <agoliveira> Tight spot as there's none.
[09:03] <bspencer> office document viewer ...
[09:03] <bspencer> btw we tried the Adobe PDF plugin in the browser awhile back
[09:03] <bspencer> it hung the browser and system
[09:03] <bspencer> it is a little bit BIIIIG
[09:04] <agoliveira> For PDF is easy.
[09:04] <bspencer> what document types to support?
[09:04] <bspencer> ODP, DOC, PDF
[09:04] <agoliveira> The problem is the MS documents
[09:04] <agoliveira> MS Office, Im eman
[09:04] <agoliveira> mean
[09:04] <bspencer> or.. what is the extension for the standard open document format? odf?
[09:04] <agoliveira> I don't see any easy alternative here
[09:04] <agoliveira> odf
[09:04] <bspencer> ok, that's what I meant
[09:05] <agoliveira> odp is for presentations, I think
[09:05] <bspencer> let's talk about usage models
[09:05] <bspencer> how are people getting .doc's on their MIDs?
[09:05] <agoliveira> We could easily use abiword and gnumeric but they don't read MS docs as well as openoffice and there's nothing for powerpoint.
[09:05] <bspencer> email or browser, probably
[09:05] <agoliveira> Yep
[09:05] <bspencer> "easily" sounds a little optimistic
[09:06] <bspencer> OO is out of the question
[09:06] <agoliveira> bspencer: They are already hildonized.
[09:06] <bspencer> so what's the belly achin about
[09:06] <agoliveira> Need a bit polish but works.
[09:06] <smagoun_> email or browser. MS compatibility is all the consumer cares about, we found
[09:06] <bspencer> smagoun_: you and your darn customers
[09:06] <bspencer> customers customers customers
[09:06] <agoliveira> Customers are for the week.
[09:06] <agoliveira> weak :)
[09:07] <smagoun_> bspencer: remind me how much $ intel is spending on the hardware? :)
[09:07] <bspencer> literally hundreds of dollars ;)
[09:07] <bspencer> agoliveira: if we can use abiword, that is good
[09:08] <bspencer> it is the best we've got.
[09:08] <Sciri> HappyCamp: Shhh. ;)
[09:08] <agoliveira> It's a plan to me but we will still lack on powerpoint area.
[09:08] <bspencer> ok.  we'll have to keep looking.
[09:08] <bspencer> what else exists in Linux besides OO for powerpt today ?
[09:09] <smagoun_> http://sixlegs.com/blog/java/powerpoint-viewer.html
[09:09] <bspencer> I see "java" in that url
[09:09] <agoliveira> bspencer: Yep.
[09:10] <smagoun_> ...though google ate the company. nevermind.
[09:10] <bspencer> "look at the screenshots' link does work
[09:10] <agoliveira> I found this before but I'm not really happy to use java just for this.
[09:11] <bspencer> let's make PPT a Priority 2 :)
[09:11] <kwwii> hehe, I figured out how the tools work, now to get the package to build
[09:11] <agoliveira> Better if we install ppveiwer using wine :-D
[09:11] <bspencer> kwwii: good news
[09:11] <kwwii> agoliveira: who says that random typing won't solve a problem :p
[09:11] <agoliveira> Actually ppviewer works perfectly on wine.
[09:11] <bspencer> kwwii: we should expect a full theme then by end of day?
[09:12] <agoliveira> :)
[09:12] <kwwii> bspencer: to be honest, I might get it done within a few hours
[09:12] <bspencer> writing that down
[09:12] <kwwii> unfortunately I have a meeting soon
[09:12] <agoliveira> erasing that down...
[09:12] <bspencer> agoliveira: ok.  let's put PPT on hold and go one
[09:12] <bspencer> s/one/on
[09:12] <kwwii> ;-)
[09:12] <agoliveira> Yep
[09:12] <agoliveira> Games !
[09:13] <agoliveira> I need to pick a few.
[09:13] <bspencer> ok.  we should assign everybody to port 1 game
[09:13] <bspencer> some obvious winners:  card games, sudoku
[09:14] <bspencer> and I recently played with a little marble game that you used your finger to rotate the floor and try to get it to the other side of the maze
[09:14] <agoliveira> I don't think we really need to port anything as most of them have their own interfaces unless you want to add like gnome-games.
[09:14] <bspencer> it would be nice with an accelerometer, but even without it was usable
[09:14] <bspencer> agoliveira: right.  some have simple menus
[09:14] <agoliveira> bspencer: I know this one. QUite coool. Problem: we don't have 3D driver yet.
[09:14] <bspencer> it would be very nice to get at least one 3D game
[09:14] <bspencer> agoliveira: we do on the Samsung :)
[09:15] <agoliveira> Oh... sure
[09:15] <agoliveira> If this is ok to you, I'm fine with it.
[09:15] <bspencer> yeah.  I'll commit to providing at least one game by October
[09:16] <agoliveira> Actually the 3D games is the easiest one: just run it fullscreen :)
[09:16] <bspencer> true
[09:16] <agoliveira> s/is/are
[09:16] <bspencer> I played a quake version in Linux a couple years ago.  Not sure if it was legal or open source
[09:17] <agoliveira> Maybe we should stick with true freeones like tuxracer, etc
[09:17] <agoliveira> There's some very new and coll ones like battle tanks
[09:18] <agoliveira> Or armagetron.
[09:18] <bspencer> yeah, I heard of armegetron
[09:18] <bspencer> I did a "top 10 linux open source games" or something query once
[09:18] <bspencer> and that was on the list
[09:18] <agoliveira> bzflag would be nice too.
[09:18] <agoliveira> One of my favorites I might add :)
[09:18] <bspencer> agoliveira: it would be cool if we could get games that played well with two mids
[09:18] <bspencer> or MID+GPS
[09:19] <agoliveira> bzflag could.
[09:19] <agoliveira> armagetron too
[09:19] <bspencer> yeah.  is that like steal the flag
[09:19] <bspencer> steal the flag = game where you run around a field and try to capture the other team's flag before they find and capture yours
[09:19] <agoliveira> bzflag? It has a CTF mode but it's more like a battle
[09:20] <bspencer> where you hit the other guy with your MID until he collapses?
[09:20] <smagoun_> tux racer might be better for the target market than bzflag + other shooters (though it looks like TR development has slowed/stopped?)
[09:20] <bspencer> agoliveira: anything else important about apps?
[09:20] <kylem> do the devices have a gyroscope like the ibm hdaps? tuxracer could be a lot of fun if so. ;-P
[09:20] <bspencer> kylem: up to the ODM 
[09:20] <agoliveira> smagoun_: I don't like very much games without lots of blood, gore and senseless violence so I can't say :)
[09:21] <bspencer> I've heard of some considering accelerometers or similar as well as GPS, but I don't know for sure
[09:21] <agoliveira> kylem: That would be cool
[09:22] <agoliveira> You can take a look at the my sugestions in the apps page
[09:22] <bspencer> agoliveira: about the camera
[09:23] <agoliveira> ANy educational games, parhapos?
[09:23] <bspencer> agoliveira: I did a little work to try and get specs for the Samsung camera
[09:23] <agoliveira> bspencer: Great. Got them?
[09:23] <bspencer> but I couldn't get much response from Vimicro.
[09:23] <bspencer> I got response, just not anything like "sure, here's the specs"
[09:23] <bspencer> more like "if you are insterested in making a product in the future, give us a call"
[09:24] <bspencer> education games 
[09:24] <agoliveira> I think that is not a big problem to make it work but may take some time tough
[09:24] <agoliveira> The camera should have a very similar design of the others from the manufacturer.
[09:25] <bspencer> the camera should use UVC instead of "Vendor specific"
[09:25] <bspencer> then we wouldn't need the specs
[09:25] <agoliveira> bspencer: In a perfect world it would :)
[09:25] <bspencer> I always thought MID would be great as a quizing tool
[09:26] <bspencer> (educational topic)
[09:26] <bspencer> like cue-cards 
[09:26] <bspencer> and simple to write, etc.
[09:26] <bspencer> I've played the Nintendo Brain quizzer game
[09:26] <agoliveira> Interesting
[09:26] <bspencer> it is kind of fun in a simple way.  Great for kids (and makes moms happy)
[09:27] <bspencer> agoliveira: ah, really?
[09:27] <bspencer> you've got $400 to spend and no place to spend it
[09:27] <agoliveira> http://www.gcompris.net/ have a lot of them but I don't know how good they are
[09:27] <agoliveira> bspencer: No, less than that :)
[09:29] <bspencer> agoliveira: ok.  going to take off for a few unless you have something
[09:29] <agoliveira> No. It's basicaly that. We can polish that later if more shows up.
[09:30] <agoliveira> I'll write an email later and post on the ML and you can bash me over it if I misunderstood anything, ok?
[09:30] <bspencer> agoliveira: if we get abiword, camera, rdesktop UI, a few games ... that's pretty good for October
[09:31] <bspencer> (along with browser, media player, chat, calc, and some PIM apps)
[09:31] <agoliveira> The camera only depends (mostly) of the driver.
[09:31] <agoliveira> The rest is feasible
[09:31] <bspencer> agoliveira: yeah, we have been using a plugin-USB camera to play with it
[09:31] <agoliveira> cheatter :)
[09:31] <bspencer> catch ya later
[09:32] <agoliveira> Ok, bye
[09:40] <kwwii> agoliveira: you don't happen to know which package I need to install to get svn on Gutsy do you?
[09:40] <kwwii> forget that
[10:01] <kwwii> double w00t - the package built
[10:01] <kwwii> bspencer: write that back down, since I already did it
[10:07] <kwwii> http://sinecera.de/hildon-theme-oranblak_4.2.0-1_all.deb
[10:09] <kwwii> http://sinecera.de/hildon-theme-oranblak_4.2.0-1.tar.gz
[10:09] <kwwii> http://sinecera.de/hildon-theme-oranblak_4.2.0-1.dsc
[10:09] <kwwii> http://sinecera.de/hildon-theme-oranblak_4.2.0-1_i386.changes
[10:37] <kwwii> soooo...is there a special usplash theme package for the mobile stuff?
[10:38] <mjg59> kwwii: Not currently
[10:38] <kwwii> mjg59: hrm, I was thinking about adding a config part for the Q1 resolution, any reason that would mess things up?
[10:39] <kwwii> mess things up for the other platforms, I mean
[10:39] <mjg59> Shouldn't, no
[10:39] <mjg59> But we can't use the Q1's native resolution
[10:40] <mjg59> It's not a vesa resolution
[10:40] <kwwii> mjg59: do you know which resolution it is using and/or is there a way to fix the scaling being currently done?
[10:40] <mjg59> Theres no way to avoid the scaling
[10:40] <mjg59> What's the res on the Q1 again? 1280x600?
[10:40] <kwwii> yepp
[10:41] <mjg59> 800x600 will be the closest, then
[10:41] <kwwii> that makes my job a bit easier...I'll wait until someone tells me to change something then
[10:42] <Mithrandir> 1024x600, iirc
[10:44] <mjg59> Oh, same issue
[10:44] <Mithrandir> sure
[10:45] <kwwii> oops, sorry, I misread the 1280
[10:45] <kwwii> Mithrandir: should I put the test theme in launchpad? if so, can someone see that it is included and pointed to as default theme?
[10:46] <Mithrandir> it's a different theme than the stock usplash theme?  Sure, LP is fine, and we can take it from there.
[10:47] <kwwii> Mithrandir: sorry, I meant the hildon theme I just created
[10:47] <Mithrandir> same process; LP's fine.
[10:47] <kwwii> Mithrandir: you can download it and test it from the link I posted above if you want to test it
[10:47] <kwwii> ok, cool
[10:50] <Mithrandir> kwwii: I'm utterly, utterly overloaded right now, but I'll do it next week.
[10:50] <Mithrandir> sorry.
[10:52] <kwwii> Mithrandir: no worries
[10:53] <kwwii> I'll bug bob as well
[11:04] <Mithrandir> coolie
[11:04] <Mithrandir> I'm sure you two will be able to get good results between the two of you
[11:05] <kwwii> yeah, now that the theme itself is ready the ball is in his court :-)
[11:05] <Mithrandir> :-)
[11:19] <kwwii> soooo...anyone know where the default theme is set? (not in gconf, that much is clear)
[11:32] <kwwii> lol, the sound of one hand clapping
[11:42] <kwwii> hrm, it appears we need hildon-theme-cacher to be able to install any other theme debs anyway
[12:23] <ian_brasil> kwwii: i tested the deb ...i got dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of hildon-theme-oranblak:
[12:23] <ian_brasil>  hildon-theme-oranblak depends on hildon-theme-cacher; however:
[12:23] <ian_brasil>   Package hildon-theme-cacher is not installed.
[12:24] <ian_brasil> so it needs hildon-theme-cache ;)
[12:24] <kwwii> ian_brasil: yeah, it is not in the repo either
[12:25] <kwwii> ian_brasil: luckily the process was straight-forward once I figured it out
[12:25] <kwwii> although the tools depend on svn...there are several points we will have to tweak
[12:28] <ian_brasil> i am looking at the images now ..it looks awesome but i see some maemo images in there ??
[12:30] <ian_brasil> qgn_plat_screen_calibration.png for example
[12:32] <kwwii> ian_brasil: yeah, they are the ones we do not use anyway
[12:32] <kwwii> ian_brasil: we have a long way to go on the themeing front, I am just happy that I can even build the theme now
[12:33] <kwwii> nobody could tell me how to do it (not even the nokia guys)...on monday I'll have a long discussion with the nokia people when they get their documentation done
[12:33] <kwwii> the clock parts (digital and analog, etc.) are also not uses
[12:33] <kwwii> used
[12:34] <kwwii> I think that I am the only person who knows how far behind we are on the themeing stuff
[12:35] <ian_brasil> good luck !! ...i think there is some deep voodoo involved with the theme creation too...maximum respect for going front line with this i reckon
[12:37] <kwwii> yeah, I kinda feel like a lone soldier :p
[12:44] <ian_brasil> well, i think part of the problem is that when someone is used to developing 'closed source' it is easy not to document or to just leave hard coded paths and so on
[12:46] <ian_brasil> which means it is hard fpr others to work out what is going on
[12:46] <kwwii> yepp, definitely
[12:47] <kwwii> and I think that a lot of those working on themeing on this channel would like to keep it that way 
[12:47] <kwwii> well, this project, not just this channel
[12:48] <kwwii> I think it has more to do with a lack of understanding than anything else
[12:51] <ian_brasil> or commercial pressures to just get it out the door...software is art right, not bean counting ! 
[12:54] <kwwii> yeah, but it could be so much easier...it seems that commercial efforts like to push off the artwork side and then get it done in a rush at the end without thinking about how to make it easy for others
[12:54] <kwwii> they seem to be used to doing things the hard way when it comes to artwork because they simply do not understand it
[12:55] <kwwii> just throw some money at it at the end and everything is good
[12:56] <kwwii> in the same sense, they are not ready to listen to good advice because they are "busy doing other things"
[12:56] <kwwii> silly, really
[12:59] <kwwii> anyway...time for bed here
[12:59] <ian_brasil> ok..this could also be seen as a pretty good opportunity to show how it should be done too though..go kwwii ;)
[01:02] <kwwii> well, in the end we have to do it the right way no matter what... I do not think that it will be acceptable otherwise
[01:02] <kwwii> just means I have a lot of work :-)
[01:15] <kwwii> hehe
[01:15] <kwwii> enjoy