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FireRabb1they... i just accidently uploaded a packge to upload.ubuntu.come that REALLY should not have been uploaded01:14
FireRabb1twhere do these files go / how can I get this deleted?01:14
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FireRabb1talright according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment, anything with an unknown key is just silently ignored.. is there anyone here from Canonical that can confirm this?01:22
azeemthat's the case, yes01:23
FireRabb1tdo the files get deleted?01:23
azeemI don't know about that01:23
azeemI assume at some point they will01:23
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FireRabb1tazeem: do you know who in here would know?01:24
azeemif they know, they will answer01:25
FireRabb1tfair enough, thanks :)01:25
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asacFireRabb1t: should be no problem if your key hasn't the power to upload02:21
asacFireRabb1t: of course only if its an accident ;)02:22
FireRabb1tyea, it was. forgot the 'local' on 'dput'. :)02:23
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mekiushey, working on a custom live cd here and have a few questions04:00
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mekiusdoes the live cd get copied to the hard drive upon install or does the installer use dpkg to install packages?04:01
LaserJockthe squashfs gets copied04:01
LaserJockthere aren't any .debs on the live cd04:02
mekiusok, i thought so04:02
mekiusso whatever is on the live cd is pretty much what will be on the installed system?04:02
mekiusobviously with a different init04:02
LaserJocksome packages are removed after it's copied04:03
mekiusah ok04:03
mekiusare there any plans to make customization any easier, or any advice on being able to see changes without having to rebuild an iso and load it up in qemu each time?04:04
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LaserJockmekius: well, there is Reconstructor and Ubuntu Customization Kit GUIs for it04:04
LaserJockmekius: and for sure there are some people that would like to make it easier04:05
LaserJockbut I don't think there is anything specifically in the works right now04:05
mekiusyeah, but they require rebuilding the iso everytime and testing with qemu, then doing it all over again heh04:05
LaserJockyou don't know exactly what you're going to get until you built the .iso04:05
mekiusi did see a wiki entry about some people with suggestions, but don't know if anyone started anything04:05
LaserJockwe even do that for Ubuntu disks04:06
mekiuswell i know with archie, an arch based live cd, they offer a tool that will take a partition and make a live cd out of it04:06
LaserJockwe build the .isos and test, and if there's a bug or something we rebuild new ones04:06
mekiusso you can just customize it while it runs and then just pack up an iso04:06
LaserJockwell, you can kinda do that04:06
LaserJockyou mount the .iso loopback04:07
LaserJockand chroot in04:07
LaserJockand you can make changes04:07
LaserJockand then get out and repack the squashfs and .iso04:07
mekiusyeah, right now i've got it unpacked04:07
mekiusand i chroot in and do some karate and kick shit around, then exit and build a new iso04:08
mekiusrun it in qemu to test it, then rinse and repeat04:08
LaserJockyep, sound about right04:08
mekiusalright, just sucks cause i can't see the effect of alot of my changes until i boot the iso and see something is screwed heh04:09
mekiusi know it's not easy :)04:09
mekiussorry for the rant here heh04:09
LaserJockyep, that's pretty much how the Ubuntu devs do it too04:09
mekiusjumped on to a project and found this method very time consuming :)04:10
LaserJockthat's about the most easy going rant we've had in here fore a while ;-)04:10
LaserJockI do know there are other people interested in that kind of thing04:10
mekiusi try not to completely bash anyone for what they do, i'm sure this works fine for doing small updates, especially when you know the system well04:10
LaserJockit's just getting time and resources together to get something put together04:10
mekiusjust hard for someone starting out trying to do things quickly :)04:10
mekiusyep, i hear ya04:11
mekiusresources are always an issue in open source :)04:11
mekiushow many people here work for Canonical?04:12
LaserJockI think there's gotta be like 20 or so people for Ubuntu development04:13
mekiusthats a pretty good amount :)04:13
LaserJockwell, depends04:13
LaserJockI think it's much smaller than say Red Hat or Novell04:14
LaserJockbut having paid people definitely helps04:14
mekiusoh sure04:14
LaserJockwe have around 80-100 total devs04:14
mekiusred hat and novell are alot more dug in04:15
mekiusthey have a lot of contracts to take care of04:15
mekiusLaserJock: you do alot of dev?04:16
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LaserJockmekius: I do what I can, which unfortunately isn't as much as I'd like :-)04:16
mekiusyeah :)04:17
LaserJockI work mostly on Edubuntu these days04:17
mekiusah ok04:17
mekiusgood project, get em while their young :)04:17
LaserJockheh, yeah04:18
mneptokLaserJock: it's >20 on the distro team04:18
LaserJockmneptok: >30?04:18
LaserJockI remember when there was 15, but they keep adding people04:18
mneptokLaserJock: dunno. i can't keep track of new employees, either.04:19
mneptokbut i know it's >2004:19
LaserJockLP gets the lions-share04:19
LaserJockbut still, Debian's got ~1000 devs04:20
LaserJockgentoo's got 300+04:20
LaserJockI'd love to see numbers for RH and Novel04:20
kylemredhat has more people working on their kernel than canonical has engineers04:20
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kylem(exaggeration, but still)04:20
mneptokkylem: but none of them have your scintillating criminal record.04:21
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LaserJockthere must be something about "bad boy" kernel hackers ;-)04:22
kylemmneptok, shh, i had that pardoned.04:22
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mneptokpardoned != expunged04:25
mneptokyou was robbed04:25
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whiprush_LaserJock: ping04:50
LaserJockwhiprush_: pong!04:51
whiprush_LaserJock: dude, you on im?04:51
LaserJockwhiprush_: how are you?!04:51
whiprush_let's chat04:51
LaserJockIRC or jabber?04:52
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mike I am a Vista 64bit Ultimate user, and I would like to transfer over to linux, but so far in 7.04 64bit and 32 dont mesh.  What do you guys recommend?06:10
desrtmike; you're in the wrong channel for this type of question06:11
mikeWhich channel then?06:12
desrtmike; but if i had to make a recommendation it would be to just run 32bit.  there are not enough compelling reasons to use 64bit for normal situations06:12
mikeI just figure I ask developers straight up.06:12
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desrtsee topic ^^.  no support question :)06:12
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mikedesrt, who is 64 bit for at this time?06:12
desrtmike; people who don't mind the disadvantages of running 64bit06:13
desrtbasically, anything that comes in binary form (flash player, some video codecs, etc) won't work at all06:13
desrtsince there are only 32bit versions of these binaries around06:13
mjg59flash can be made to work with minimal difficulty06:13
mjg59And most of the interesting video codecs are supported by ffmpeg06:14
desrtout of process linked against 32bit libc?06:14
mjg59desrt: Yeah06:14
mikeexcept mpeg avc encoding!06:14
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mjg59Has the handy side effect that it's out of process06:14
desrtmjg59; are there any good reasons to actually use 64bit, though?06:14
desrtmjg59; i find flash doesn't usually cause me trouble.  java is another story.06:14
mjg59desrt: You can use it to out of process stuff on the same architecture, too06:15
mjg59mike: If you want to use stuff where there's no 64-bit codec, then right now 32-bit is a much easier choice06:15
ScottKdesrt: If you are doing CPU intensive processing using software optimized for 64 bit.06:15
desrtmjg59; i'd have imagined that to be the case :p06:15
mjg59desrt: Mildly better performance, access to more than 3GB of RAM06:15
desrti'd imagine performance to be mildly worse under common workloads06:16
mjg59Nothing especially compelling. I'm doing it so I'm encouraged to fix the bugs06:16
desrtthe whole 8-byte-pointer thing is a pretty annoying hit to take06:16
mjg59Basically every benchmark ever has shown x86_64 to be slightly faster than ia3206:16
mikeI know this is a stupid question.  But in my Vista Ultimate I can still run 32bit apps on the fly with no hiccups.    I know you probably can't easily answer this.   But why cant my 32bit linux apps play nice inside a 64bit nix OS?06:16
desrtare they benchmarking integer math performance or something?06:16
desrtmike; they absolutely can06:17
mjg59mike: They can, but we don't have the infrastructure to make this easy06:17
desrtmike; you can run 32bit linux apps out of the box on ubuntu amd6406:17
mjg59desrt: The extra registers help06:17
desrtmike; but you need to have 32bit libraries to go with them.... and those don't currently ship as part of the 64bit version of ubuntu06:17
desrtmjg59; ahh.  good call.06:17
mikeI got Intel CD2 at 3.2ghz with 64 bit Ubunut currenlty instaleld.06:17
desrtmjg59; i imagine the ip-relative addressing speeds up shared libraries too06:17
desrtno more bx-setting thunk06:18
mjg59mike: The difficulty in running 32-bit applications on 64-bit ubuntu is a failure on our part06:18
mjg59But I don't think anyone's actively working on it right now06:19
desrtthe best solution is going to involve changes to apt/dpkg06:19
mjg59It's all been architected, just not implemented06:19
mjg59Tollef wrote his thesis on it, IIRC06:19
desrti guess there would need to be two different sorts of dependencies06:19
desrtsame-arch (for libraries) and any-arch (for stuff that is merely shelled out to)06:20
mjg59We already have that, effectively06:20
desrtdo tell?06:20
mjg59Oh, I see what you mean06:20
mjg59Yeah, it would only special case libraries06:20
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desrton the other hand you could probably do it in the build infrastructure06:21
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desrtand generate 3264 versions of all libraries06:21
desrtfor arch "amd64" but containing 32bit code installed to /lib3206:22
mikeSo apt/dpkg    is only set up currently for one or the other?06:23
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desrtwith some very rare exceptions, yes06:23
desrtyou either have a x86 system or an amd64 system06:23
Amaranthlooking for a kubuntu person :)06:23
desrtamd64 has some very rare "32bit version" packages like libc06:23
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Amaranthneed to get the patch from http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=147557 in06:24
ubotuKDE bug 147557 in general "When using compiz, the "Server List" window widgets do not appear, and the window cannot be closed..." [Crash,Resolved: fixed] 06:24
desrtyou can build and install more of them yourself but you're basically on your own for it06:24
mikeHow come in Synpatic after adding the repository for something like Skype, how come and wont let me download and install it?06:24
desrtbecause skype is a binary for which only a 32bit version is available06:25
desrtthese are all the reasons you should use 32bit :)06:25
mikebut mjg59 said that 32bit apps work out of the box in 64bit.06:25
desrtmjg59; do you know if there is some way to run the CPU in 64bit mode with the exception of pointer-size?06:25
mjg59desrt: Not to the best of my knowledge06:26
desrtso you can get access to extra instructions/registers...06:26
mjg59mike: No, I said they didn't06:26
desrtmike; actually, i said that.  and it's true.  but the way debian packaging works won't allow you to do it.06:26
mikemy ba06:26
mikeDo you guys use 64 or 32?06:26
xtknight32bit does work on all amd64 CPUs.  the 32bit apps dont necessarily right off, since they need to look for their 32lib libs.  sometimes "linux32 prog" will help.06:26
desrtmike; and if you wanted to install skype for yourself (outside of the packaging) you'd have to build a lot of libraries for it first06:26
xtknightotherwise put libs from i386.deb into (use "mc" to get files out of a deb) /usr/lib32/06:27
desrti use 32bit because i don't feel like dealing with the hassles.  mjg59 uses 64bit because it's his job to fix the hassles. :)06:27
desrt(for a rather loosely defined meaning of "job", admittedly...)06:27
mikeAre you guys the actually developers ofr Ubuntu?06:28
desrtsome of us more than others.  me, not so much :)06:28
xtknighti'm only a user06:28
=== desrt does odd ubuntu work here and there but spends more time working on gnome directly
mikewhat about mjg59?06:29
desrtoh.  he's elite.06:29
desrtif you have a laptop, he's the reason that it works06:29
mikeHe is the man?06:29
desrthe's actually three men06:29
desrtya.  seriously.06:29
mneptokand a baby06:29
mikeprops to you mjg5906:29
mneptokand a hydra06:30
LaserJockmike: he's on the Ubuntu Technical Board ;-)06:30
LaserJockor at least I think he still is06:30
mikeNow tell me the truth do you guys use Vista or OSX?06:30
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mikeor true nix users?06:30
LaserJockI use OS X a lot, never even seen Vista06:30
desrt(apple doesn't release a firmware upgrader for linux...)06:30
desrtother than that i never use either06:30
=== ScottK has an old hard drive with Win2K on it somewhere, but hasn't used it other than for customer support in over a year.
desrtwell, actually... i use macos when i'm trying to fix my sister's broken computer...06:31
=== ScottK has seen Vista on someone else's machine and wasn't impressed.
=== mneptok gestures fratically at #ubuntu-offtopic
mikeVista is nice eyecandy that is bloated out the wazooo06:32
=== desrt played with vista in a computer store once while waiting for the clerk to be free
desrti've heard the eyecandy isn't even that nice :p06:32
mikebetter than xp then lol06:32
desrtya... but not as good as macos from 4 years ago06:32
mikeI really appreciate you guys taking the time to talk to me.06:32
ScottKIMO Windows peaked at Win2K.06:33
ScottKI will confess to mostly care about reliability, so my perspective is a bit unusual.06:33
desrtbefore they started changing the visual style with every release to make you think that it was new and shiny? :)06:33
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mikeSo I guess I should but my 32bit Ubunut and reinstall over my current 64bit one?06:33
desrtmike; running a 32bit system is, without a doubt, easier06:34
=== ScottK is currently reading a nice blog entry about the MS WGA outage last weekend.
mikeI swear the only reason I use M$ is cause of games06:34
desrtmike; particularly if you're gonna be putting in stuff like skype06:34
desrtmike; get a wii.  i hear they're fantastic :)06:34
mikex360 for halo 3!  NO comparison06:35
mikei got a ps3 too06:35
desrtuse them :)06:35
mikemodded xbox06:35
desrtmy aunt and her boyfriend got me to ubuntu them up a few months ago because they were sick of the crap with windows06:35
desrthis games ran like crap on ubuntu so he just stopped playing them eventually06:35
desrtthen he bought a wii and is happier than ever :)06:35
mikeWhat about adobe equivilant products.  Nice WYSIWG alternative.      Premier, Macromodia ?06:36
desrtnothing yet, unfortunately06:36
desrtbut i think we'll be seeing a shift from adobe in the coming years..06:37
desrtfortunately, most "home users" don't use that stuff06:37
ScottKFor PDF the tools are actually, IMO, better on Linux.06:37
mikeI just like having the ability to do anything06:37
desrtya.  evince is fantastic.06:37
LaserJockScottK: yes, way better06:37
desrthas windows got a pdf viewer yet?06:37
desrtor do you still have to install the adobe crap?06:37
mikeWindows doesnt even have a native dual pane file manager, errr06:38
desrtwhat happened to fileman.exe?06:38
=== desrt remembers the good old windows 3.1 days
mikeIs there a WIKI for the next Gusty release?06:39
mikeI would like to see what it offers06:39
desrtyou can probably get a good idea by reading the release notes for the tribe releases06:39
LaserJockit's a bit tough to see, even at this point a lot can change06:40
desrtstart here: http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/tribe506:40
desrtthen read backward tribe4, tribe3, ...06:40
desrtit'll give you a good overview of the new stuff that has gone in so far06:40
mikeBetter dual monitor support, sweet.06:41
desrtSmooth shutdown splash06:42
desrtThe splash screen displayed on shutdown no longer flickers briefly to a black screen during the shutdown process. A[A[A06:42
desrtthank god :p06:42
ScottKThere is also https://wiki.kubuntu.org/GutsyGibbon/Tribe5/Kubuntu to consider too.06:42
mikeDo you test in VMserver are do you do a real install?06:42
desrtkubuntu is for chumps :)06:42
desrtmike; to be honest, it's probably reasonably safe at this point to install gutsy tribe on your normal machine06:43
ScottKKubuntu is for people who actually like to have choices ;-)06:43
=== ScottK has a real install on a spare hard drive.
desrtthere may be some bumps, of course.... and there will be lots of updates to download every day... but it probably works OK06:43
mikeSo now if I go back to 32bit, i cause I need to ditch a gb of memory or two that wont be used06:43
desrthow much ram do you have in there? :p06:43
ScottKHow much memory do you have?06:43
mikeLike I said I got all the power toys06:44
desrtyou can run 32bit ubuntu with PAE and get access to up to about 64GB06:44
mikeWas going to build another Quadcore and overclock it, but holding off the see these new 45nm CPUs coming out.06:44
desrti doubt you have more than that :)06:44
desrtthe limitation is on the amount of memory that a single process can use -- that's 3GB06:45
desrtthe system as a whole can use more06:45
desrtwithout PAE the most memory that it makes sense to have is 4GB06:46
desrt(but a bit of it will be wasted due to memory-mapped buffers of devices)06:46
kylemno, you will get the full 4G per process on all our kernels.06:47
desrtkylem; on 32bit?  i doubt it.06:48
mikeNow does linux have a MPEG AVC encoder?   FFMPEG only decodes.    And is there 1337 video editing softweare?06:48
kylemha. whatever. don't listen to me, i don't know anything about this at all.06:48
desrtmike; probably not as per your definitions of l33t :)06:48
desrtkylem; k :)06:49
mikedesrt from a surface level, not diving what is under the hood.   Gnome hands down right?06:50
desrtmike; i'm biased.06:50
mikeI notice a couple KDE apps look funny i gnome.   I think I tried k3b, just looked a bit off.06:50
desrtkde and gnome use different toolkits for drawing and different themes...06:51
desrton top of that they have rather different design philosophy and artwork06:51
desrtso it can be a bit jarring :)06:51
RAOFmike: You'd be after "x264" on the MPEG4 AVC encoding front.  You can build it into ffmpeg, if you want.06:51
mikeSo should I wait until october of stable Gutsy or put 7.04 32bit back on?06:53
desrtkylem; erm.... you're someone who should probably know a bit about virtual memory...06:54
desrtso i don't believe you when you say you don't know anything about it06:54
kylemit was sarcasm.06:55
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desrtso correct me06:55
dobeykylem: he's canadian. they don't have sarcasm there.06:55
kylemas it happens, i know a lot about virtual memory...06:56
desrtdo you have some sort of a kernel-entry trampoline these days?06:56
kylemeh? we invalidate the tlb, it costs us a bit, but it's not a big deal.06:56
desrtso you _do_ have a trampoline?06:56
mikeDL gutsy tribe 5 now.  Great DL speed06:57
desrtis that upstream or a patch?06:57
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kylemupstream. see CONFIG_HIGHMEM4G06:58
mikeWhy doesnt torrent become main stream to DL large files?06:58
dobeymike: it has become maintstream06:59
mike600 KB/s and climbing06:59
LaserJockmike: cause torrents suck :-)06:59
LaserJockat least for some people I guess06:59
mikeWell I got the download page for trribe 5 and by default it sends me to http link06:59
dobeymike: gunzonline.com uses it. blizzard uses it for world of warcraft. etc...06:59
dobeyit's a pain in the ass though06:59
LaserJockit always seems like torrents are soooo much slower than just using http/ftp for me07:00
mikeIf it is main stream then by defualt download link shouldnt link me to the torrent?07:01
dobeymike: mainstream doesn't mean everyone uses it by default07:02
dobeymainstream merely means "in widespread use"07:02
minghuaAlso less people downloads Tribe releases than final downloads.07:02
dobeyi think numerous online games using it, pretty much classifies it as "mainstream"07:02
dobeyespecially with world of warcraft being one of those07:03
minghuaSo even if bittorrent is the default link for final release, it makes sense to go back to http/ftp for tribe.07:03
mikeBut does it make sense for the server?07:03
dobeythe server?07:04
mikebandwith placed on server07:04
LaserJocklike every time we release and the Canonical servers and mirrors get absolutely hammered :-)07:04
dobeyif you're using bittorrent, there is virtually no bandwidth being used by the server for the download07:05
mikebandwith cost money so I was just wondering about 'mainstream'07:05
LaserJockthat's why torrents are available07:05
ion_Its a pity multicasting hasnt been more popular.07:05
dobeybandwisth ~= cost of water, at least in the US :)07:05
desrtkylem; everything i'm reading about this HIGHMEM4G tells me that it has nothing to do with virtual address space layout07:06
desrtkylem; nothing to do with the kernel/user split, anyway....07:06
ion_Id like to order twenty liters of bandwidth.07:06
dobeythat'll be $0.0507:06
hileso how many bits does it fit to one liter07:07
dobeydepends on what counts as a bit i guess07:08
dobeyis a molecule a bit or a byte?07:08
hilea byte, I'd say07:09
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mikerandom question.  What is the  i386 name used for 32 bit desktop edition?    I though 386 was a reference back to 1985 with the 80386 processor07:09
dobeyhile: so each atom is a bit?07:09
hilenot so sure07:09
dobeyor are electrons bits?07:09
LaserJockthe spin on the electron  is a bit07:10
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RAOFHm.  Is there any easy way to install *all* the dbgsym packages for all the packages I have installed?07:12
mikerandome question #2 how come ntfs-3g made me copy the files over to ext3 partiion before being able to execute/process ?07:13
kylemhuh, i thought x86 might have joined the 20th century. guess not. loss.07:14
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mikeAbout to check out tribe 5 here.   Umm.  I got a dilema.   1 blacnk HDD,   2 HDD  has two OS on it;   64 7.04 and Vista Ultimate.      I want to install Gutsy to blank hdd.    But then I would have 3 OS.   i want to get rid of 64bit 7.0407:24
desrtkylem; seems not to be the case, in fact :/07:26
desrtkylem; i like my syscalls fast anyway :)07:26
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Riddellcalc: congratulations11:16
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Amaranthanyone know how to make apt show it's reasoning for upgrading a package?11:22
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Amaranthfor why it thinks an upgrade is available, i mean11:22
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Amaranthi have a feeling i need mvo for that one :)11:28
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zasfcjwatson: goog morning11:38
geserAmaranth: apt-cache policy pkgname11:38
zasfcjwatson: how do I know if bcm43xx-fwcutter will be in main/restricted and thus shipped with gutsy cd?11:38
Amaranthgeser: no11:38
Amaranthgeser: that just shows the weights11:39
Amaranthi want to know why it thinks two packages are different and one has a higher weight than the other11:39
Amaranthi've got what i'm pretty sure is a PPA bug11:39
Amaranthwell, or apt11:39
Amaranthneed to figure out why it always thinks the remote version is newer than the local version11:40
Amaranthno matter how many times you do the 'upgrade'11:40
geserah, that problem11:40
Amaranthdifferent than the original, that was fixed11:40
Amaranththis is a completely different problem that apparently only i have11:41
geserhave you checked that the package with that version is only in one repo?11:41
Amaranthbut it doesn't happen with the same package in the actual archive11:41
Amaranthgeser: there is an older version of the package available in regular feisty11:41
Amaranthotherwise there is nothing else11:41
Amaranthapt-cache policy shows 3, 2 dupes of the new one and the old one11:42
Amaranth(one is remote the other is local)11:42
Amaranththe only thing i can think of is the ~ppa1 bit11:43
Amaranthbut that doesn't do anything to the other packages i have in there11:43
geserwait for mvo or dig in the source code11:45
Amaranthi think i'll wait for mvo :)11:45
Amaranthmy dig into nautilus/libeel turned me off looking at other people's code for awhile11:46
stgraberasac: ping11:46
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stgraberasac: I have spent some more minutes on that open network problem with ipw3945+NM, I checked with ipw3945 without NM and the no-automatic-association (default module parameter) seems to work fine but as soon as I start the NM, it connects to my wired LAN (so it shouldn't do anything with the WLAN card) but also associate to the first open wlan it finds ...12:18
stgraberwhich is I'm pretty sure not a wanted behaviour at all12:18
Treenakssame with ipw2200 -- that associates to the first AP it can the moment you load the driver12:33
Treenaks(which might be illegal in some places...)12:34
AmaranthTreenaks: dude, that is no annoying12:34
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TreenaksAmaranth: 'no' -> 'so' or 'not'?12:35
Amaranthso :)12:35
Amaranthbefore i login i'm on the neighbor's 'linksys' network12:36
Amaranththat is illegal here :)12:36
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TreenaksAmaranth: here it's only illegal if there's a "no access" sign (meaning "it's encrypted" or "the ssid contains words that can be interpreted as such")12:37
Treenaks"linksys" and "default" are the new "Welcome" signs :)12:37
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jc-dentonhi all03:26
jc-dentonin never ubuntu distros disks are always called /dev/sdx03:27
jc-dentonis that correct03:27
jc-dentonhow can i figure out if the disk behind is ata, sata or scsi03:27
jc-dentonbecause i can't enable 32bit io and dma so far03:27
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ubotuIt's a weekend.  Often on weekends, the paid developers, and a lot of the community, may not be around to answer your question.  Please be patient, wait longer than you normally would, or try again during the working week.04:16
pkernjc-denton: hdparm -I <dev>04:21
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pkernjc-denton: That won't tell you the type of disk, but the capabilities.04:21
pkernjc-denton: It will also show you which DMA mode is currently used (asterisk). But I don't think that you have to mess with that nowadays.04:22
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cjwatsonwhoopsie. sorry for breaking hibernate for everyone. fixed in powermanagement-interface 0.3.1705:26
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whiprush_meffie: hi05:35
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IntuitiveNipplecjwatson: Thanks for that :)06:01
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DoctorMOprod: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PimSyncPlan06:37
DoctorMOI'd like to get feedback on my ideas, something other than 'wow you'd be my hero'06:37
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pygiDoctorMO, :P06:40
=== ScottK was thinking more like, "Who's going to do the work ..."
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LaserJockwe are full of good ideas that never get implemented :-)06:43
bluefoxicyso it looks like Gutsy has totally destroyed the separation of privileges security model on ssh :D06:44
bluefoxicyis anyone here running feisty still that can snag me something?06:44
LaserJockbluefoxicy: depends on what it is ;-)06:45
bluefoxicyLaserJock:  find a pid of sshd, cat /proc/$pid/status | grep CapEff06:45
bluefoxicyactually, just grep Cap06:45
LaserJockCapInh: 000000000000000006:46
LaserJockCapPrm: 00000000fffffeff06:46
LaserJockCapEff: 00000000fffffeff06:46
bluefoxicyLaserJock:  check dmesg and see if you see something like "Capability LSM initialized as secondary" twice, one late in the boot process (30 seconds or so)06:47
bluefoxicythis may not be a gutsy thing (I'm thinking it's the way AppArmor is done right now, but perhaps not...)06:47
IntuitiveNippleI only see the one in Fiesty 32-bit "[    2.467828]  Capability LSM initialized"06:48
LaserJock[   20.021888]  Capability LSM initialized06:48
LaserJocksame here, only 106:48
bluefoxicyLaserJock:  that's probably way too late.06:48
bluefoxicywhen caps are initialized that late in the boot process, any process before them gets full caps (i.e. the whole separation of privileges model used by things like ssh or anything else that drops caps is destroyed)06:49
bluefoxicyIntuitiveNipple:  can YOU check to see the CapEff on sshd?  Yours is probably running under something less permissive, I'm guessing...06:49
IntuitiveNipplebluefoxicy: The same as LaserJock's06:50
=== bluefoxicy hrms. Checks something out.
IntuitiveNippleCapInh: 000000000000000006:50
IntuitiveNippleCapPrm: 00000000fffffeff06:50
IntuitiveNippleCapEff: 00000000fffffeff06:50
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bluefoxicyhmm.  I'm getting the same string after restarting ssh.  Maybe I'm wrong on how this works.06:51
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=== bluefoxicy will have to examine this more; but holds off on filing a bug.
bluefoxicyLJ, IN:  thanks.06:53
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cjwatsonbluefoxicy: ssh doesn't use capabilities as such, just seteuid etc.06:55
cjwatsonbluefoxicy: I suspect you'll find the sshd network child process still drops its privileges just fine06:58
bluefoxicycjwatson: hmm.  Theo gave a presentation touting the capabilities sep.. oh ok06:58
bluefoxicythat's probably working then, since the child process will exec() angd get caps.06:58
cjwatsonbluefoxicy: you misunderstood the word "capabilities". also OpenSSH people always talk about "privilege separation" not "capability separation".06:59
bluefoxicycjwatson:  they talk about privilege separation using capabilites IIRC06:59
cjwatsonsshd forks a child which chroots to an empty jail, does setgroups+setregid+setreuid, listens to network communication, and passes sanitised versions of that communication over a simple protocol to the parent.07:00
cjwatsonso parsing bugs can do much less damage07:00
cjwatsonthat's what sshd privsep means07:01
bluefoxicyhmm o.o07:01
bluefoxicyI need to research this more.  That seems sane though.07:01
cjwatsonoh and that process is only used during authentication, so you won't see it hanging around afterwards.07:02
cjwatsoni.e. no amount of grep Cap /proc/*/status will show anything interesting unless you nobble sshd to hang around during authentication a bit longer07:03
=== bluefoxicy wonders what lingering daemons do drop caps these days
cjwatson(after auth, the child with user privileges is perfectly good for parsing network data)07:05
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ion_Really nice that xubuntu-desktop switched to gnome-screensaver.07:12
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DoctorMOLaserJock: yea07:16
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=== jdong giggles
jdong"Hard Heron with 5 years of support!"07:46
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IntuitiveNippleYou just wait for Grumpy!07:47
=== pkern waits for "Antidisestablishmentarian Affenpinscher"..
IntuitiveNippleis that a flavour of hog? :p07:49
IntuitiveNippleFor "I", I'd love to see 'Inquisitive Imp' :)07:53
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alesando you have any idea what is the package for the "logout" button? gnome people told me it is ubuntu-patched08:26
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LaserJockalesan: boy, I have no idea08:33
alesanany idea how to find out? I would very much like to disable the "fading" thing08:35
ScottKIf I were to guess it would be in gdm, but no promises.08:36
alesanok thanks08:40
gnomefreakski would think either gdm or gnome-session08:43
gnomefreakgnome-session-manager if not gnome-session08:43
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mikedesrt you here?09:17
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mikedesrt told me to use 7.10 tribe 5, but my monitor res is acting up big time09:22
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asacstgraber: there?10:56
stgraberasac: yep10:59
asacsorry been out for the day ;)10:59
asacstgraber: are you still in the same environment (where nm associates with the open-network?)11:00
stgraberany idea why NM would associate with the first network it finds even if it's connected to wired and then shouldn't do anything with vlan ?11:01
asacgood what does sudo iwlist scan give you?11:01
asacstgraber: does network-manager know about the first network?11:01
asacstgraber: e.g. is it displayed as connected ... or did you find out with ifconfig et al11:02
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stgraberit's not marked as connected but I can see the associate using iwconfig11:03
asacyes ok that makes sense then11:03
stgrabermy current test is : connect to wired LAN, then kill ipw3945d and unload ipw3945, then reload it11:04
asacstgraber: can you explicitly switch back to wired after that?11:04
stgraberNM is still connected to the wired LAN but iwconfig shows the association to the open net11:04
mjg59asac: I can't associate my ipw3945 with an open network. It seems the driver never sends the association event.11:04
asacmjg59: yes for open networks its probably a driver bug11:04
stgraberdoing the same with NM turned off doesn't automatically associate11:04
asacmjg59: however it appears to work better with wpa supplicant ... no idea why its different11:05
stgraberasac: what do you mean by "after that", at this point I never disconnect from wired LAN nor asked NM to connect to a WLAN11:06
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asacstgraber: so you are just associated without ip?11:17
asacstgraber: ok then nm didn't receive the association event11:18
stgraberI'm connected on my wired network, then load the ipw3945 driver and a few seconds after iwconfig shows an association11:18
stgraberbut I never asked NM to connect to a wifi network :)11:18
asacstgraber: what do you see in logs?11:18
asacdoes nm officially try to bring up the interface?11:19
asacthe logs don't even mention the device?11:20
stgraber^ What happens after the "modprobe ipw3945"11:20
asacstgraber: ok ... can you try to explicitly reconnect to the wired network11:21
asacthen do the driver reload?11:21
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stgraberexactly the same behaviour, I load the driver, the second after it's connect to an open wlan11:23
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deadchipis Scott Tankard around maybe?11:38
deadchipi've got something for the automated-testing proposals11:39
deadchipi'm the upstream maintainer of BMP, and the old XMMS based BMP is proposed for the automated testing stuff, but it's an deprecated app11:39
deadchipBMPx has replaced it since a good while from our side, and it would be much better if it would receive the testing instead11:39
deadchipit's available in Debian and thus to ubuntu users at the moment through Debian11:40
deadchiphowever I don't want to just change this in the wiki11:40
deadchipanyone knows whom i can contact about this?11:40
deadchipermm Scott T. is just the last editor of the page i don't know if he's the guy responsible for this11:41
ScottKA link to the page you are discussing wouldn't hurt.11:44
mhbScottK: I thought the same thing :o)11:44
asac        /* Device must be up before we can scan */11:45
asac        if (nm_device_bring_up_wait (NM_DEVICE (self), 1))11:45
stgraberasac: yes, but doing : modprobe ipw3945 + ifconfig eth1 up doesn't associate without NM11:47
crimsundeadchip: to which URL are you referring?11:47
deadchipcrimsun: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Suite/Desktop11:47
deadchipwell i've changed it now, as the edit history showed other people added their apps there, etc11:48
deadchipit's really no use at all to add BMP to the testing because upstream (we) won't be making any changes to it11:48
crimsunright, that's fine.11:48
geserdoko: you forgot to change the maintainer field for your last upload of gcc-snapshot to Debian unstable11:48
deadchipso everything that would be a potential fix would end with ubuntu developers11:48
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asacstgraber: what network manager does from what i see is just unsetting the essid to "" ... then scanning11:54
asacmaybe you get an association if you just do that?11:54
stgraberasac: ok, just tried and indeed doing : iwconfig eth1 essid "" makes the card to associate11:56
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asacok then its either a feature or a driver bug11:57
asacso what issue is left?11:57
asacyou cannot connect to open networks right?11:57
stgraberasac: yes11:59
asacyou have nm sources?11:59
stgraberasac: and I think that automatic association might be the problem (as it shouldn't be associated and asking NM to connect to a public WLAN doesn't make it associate to the selected one)12:00
asacstgraber: nm-device-802-11-wireless.c line 531 53312:00
stgraberI think so but I'll have to update them anyway (didn't pull for a while)12:00
stgraberasac: ubuntu.0.6.x ?12:00
asacthere is are association / disassociation event cases there that appear to be not processed12:00
asacstgraber: yes12:01
asacstgraber: maybe add nm_info("wireless_event_helper - associated event");12:01
asacstgraber: and nm_info("wireless_event_helper - disassociated event");12:02
asacto see if you get those events12:02
asacstgraber: while you build ... can you post a log of a connect attempt to open network?12:04
stgraberI'm updating my pbuilder, as soon as I no longer need the network I'll12:05
stgraberasac: http://paste.stgraber.org/328812:08
asacstgraber: what does iwconfig show you?12:09
asacstgraber: are you associated?12:09
asacwhen it hangs in stage 112:09
stgraberyes I'm asociated but I also was before asking NM to connect12:10
asacyes right12:11
asacstgraber: its starnge that you only see "DevicePrepare ) scheduled" ... but not *started*12:15
stgraberasac: http://paste.stgraber.org/328912:15
asacits not much that could go wrong ... its basically just an idle timeout12:15
stgraberwith the two nm_info lines12:15
asacstgraber: ok can you do a connect attempt now12:16
asacand wait till nm gives up ... at best note which time that is in log :)12:16
stgraberI doubt it'll give up, I always had to kill it as I wasn't even able to select wired connection :)12:17
asacsounds reasonable12:17
asacmaybe a dead log?12:17
asaci mean i wondered why preparation is not started for you ... its basically just attaching and idle source12:18
asacso not much that could go wrong12:18
asacs/dead log/deadlock/12:18
stgraberthis try seems a bit better (which is strange as nothing is different except the two nm_info ...) : http://paste.stgraber.org/329012:21
stgraberand I was able to switch back to wired LAN12:21
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stgraberbut no disassociated/associated event line shown :(12:21
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asacstgraber: i don't see any association event now12:22
asacdidn't you reload driver?12:22
stgraberthis log start just before I click on the open wlan name in NM, the NM auto-association was before I think12:25
asacbut you are associated to another network? or the right one?12:25
stgraberI only have one open network here, so it's the same network I'm automatically associated to and I'm trying to connect12:25
asacstgraber: ok now switching rflink ?12:26
asacwhat happens then?12:26
stgraberswitching rflink ?12:27
asacwell turn radio off and on12:27
asacthere should be something :)12:27
stgrabera ok, let me try12:27
asacwhat did yousee in log?12:30
asacdid you just get an assocaited event?12:30
stgraberif I do it while it's at stage 1 or just before it doesn't work (iwconfig shows unassociated), if it's at stage 2 or after it just works fine12:31

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