=== ubotu [n=ubotu@ubuntu/bot/ubotu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === PhreeStyle-home [n=ross@c-71-235-128-5.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:22] hwello [01:23] hiya PhreeStyle-home [01:23] id like to help with documentation, but dont know where to start === IanC26 [n=IanC26@2002:cb36:1c94:4:216:6fff:fe39:ff6e] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:28] which distro are you looking at helping? [01:28] I am guessing Kubuntu because you are in kde-docs as well :) [01:29] well, i thought about it, but I run gnome [01:29] Kubuntu docs are pretty much complete for Gutsy right now [01:30] ahh, you will want to talk with mdke when he is around (he is in the UK), or Phil Bull who seems to be away right now...have you emailed the docs list expressing your interest? [01:30] well i did about a month ago, then a bunch of stuff fell in my lap I couldn't do anything until now [01:30] ahh, that is always fun :) [01:31] get in contact with Phil and check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Tasks [01:31] I removed myself from the mailing list because I knew I wasn't going to be able to do anything for a while [01:31] so should I rejoin and start over saying hello? [01:32] probably would be best...express your interest in helping the gnome side as well [01:34] ok I just joined the mailing list again...thanks for the advice [01:35] no problem..and welcome! hopefully they can get you rolling with some stuff...it could start to get slow seeing as we are only 2 weeks away from our freeze for Gutsy === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:44] mdke: gone already? [01:46] probably close to it [01:46] LaserJock: what is up with the packaging guide? are you going to be working on it? need a little help with it? iirc you had someone who was going to work on it [01:46] nixternal: ah, but you're here :-) [01:47] well [01:47] not anymore...I just made like a LongPointyStick and poked my way out! [01:47] I've been trying to give it away === nixternal definitely pokes his way out now [01:47] not sure if it's gonna stick [01:47] nixternal: I was actually gonna ask you about KDE4 [01:47] oh, whew :) [01:48] I wondered how easy it is to test KDE4 now on Feisty and Gutsy [01:49] feisty: we have Beta 1 packages in Riddell's repo at kubuntu.org, Gutsy has Beta 1 in universe and I am currently working on Beta 2 packages (keep that on the downl low) [01:49] of course, you can always check it out from the anon kde svn repo and build it yourself [01:49] but does it run? [01:49] oh ya [01:49] I know I can get packages, but it seemed kinda involved to get things going [01:50] I am starting to switch over to it so I can start working out more kinks [01:50] I am doing 50/50 KDE 3 and KDE 4 now [01:50] scary :-) [01:50] I wonder what will happen when gnome goes to 3 [01:51] it can be...it doesn't crash majorly for me yet [01:51] dunno, but I can't wait to see what gnome does [01:52] yeah [01:52] I think it'll be a key to the endless gnome vs. kde struggle [01:52] KDE's setting the bar [01:53] there will always be that struggle though I think...I enjoy the whole kde vs. gnome thing, because it feels to me that each project strives to be the best [01:54] yea, competition is good for progress [01:54] a lot of people are for 1 desktop environment, which I find flat out stupid because it kills competition and eventually leads to a Microsoft type feeling [01:54] I'm for 1 desktop ideally [01:55] but realistically it just doesn't seem to happen [01:55] I'm sick of duplicate projects [01:55] it would be impossible...imagine the amount of loss due to something like that...die hard gnome people wouldn't switch if it was kde only, and kde people wouldn't switch if it was gnome only [01:55] and I hate how difficult it is to develop an app that anybody could use [01:56] yeah, I'd like to take the best of both worlds [01:56] but it would just end up being *my* view of it [01:56] I guess anyway [01:56] it would be like saying, we only need 1 linux distro...can't afford to get rid of the competition within the free software community [01:56] I think we need 1 linux distro too ;-) [01:57] I just can't stand the wasted effort [01:58] we have a whole lot of crappy software [01:58] rather than focusing on getting good ones [01:58] imagine one distro with 2 million developers..it would never work...it would be nothing but power struggles as well [01:58] 2 million developers? [01:59] well, with all of the projects/distros out there, there are well over 2 million developers spread around the world [01:59] not distros [01:59] maybe all FLOSS [02:01] I'm all for competition [02:01] but I'd like to see competition between a few good choices [02:01] well then how could you be for 1 distro and 1 desktop environment then? [02:01] competition with a dominate distro/DE works [02:02] if you think about it, there is competition between the few good choices..there may be thousands of distros, but have 6 users doesn't count :) [02:02] but distro and DE are so fundamental that it really starts effecting things [02:02] yup [02:02] I'd love to see all distros move to one package format [02:03] one DE [02:03] and there only be 2-3 main distros [02:03] another thing with 1 distro or 1 de, is if I am working on that project, and I have a falling out or what not..then what am I to do? [02:03] that'd cover 90%+ of people [02:03] nixternal: deal with it [02:03] I hate seeing people fork or ditch just because of personal problems [02:03] it's stupid [02:03] not always the easiest thing to do [02:03] didn't say it was [02:03] :-) [02:04] I agree with you there..but that is like saying no matter how crappy your working environment, deal with it [02:04] no [02:04] obviously at this point we don't have really crappy DEs [02:04] actually, we have quite a few great de's [02:05] but we are allowing them to continue make mistakes because they can say "don't like it, try something else" [02:05] same with distros [02:05] and each one fits a specific need to a user...it provides them that choice we like to brag about :) [02:05] "If you don't like Ubuntu, go use something else" [02:05] we should be able to suit the vast majority of people [02:05] that is what I tell people...they have that choice, but with one de or one distro, that choice is gone [02:06] my point is, why should they *have* to choose [02:06] now it would be, if you don't like our distro, then go use windows or mac [02:06] there should be 1 clear choice [02:06] because it is a freedom of course [02:06] bah [02:06] would you like to walk into a store and have just 1 tv to choose from? [02:06] freedom is highly overrated [02:07] what is freedom of choice if you get to choose between several bad choices [02:07] I'd take 1 choice if it was good [02:07] windows is good :) [02:07] yes, it can be [02:08] choice isn't always what you want [02:08] if I want to install software and I have to figure out and choose between package formats [02:08] that's no good [02:08] for me it is, because I actually get to choose what I want, and not what some developers wants me to want [02:08] pfft [02:09] you get what the developer wants, always [02:09] true, but I still have a choice between product a and product b, and in distros product 1 to 1,000,000 :) [02:10] I don't know, I just think choice is a crutch that a lot of devs have used to get away with crap [02:10] it's not bad, in and of itself [02:10] I will admit that there have been way to many forks with distros of which most were unnecessary [02:11] ie. Mepis, PCLinuxOS, VA Linux, Stampede, Mint, Edubuntu, Xubuntu :) [02:11] I would really like to see 1 major DE [02:12] I can't see how the Gnome vs KDE thing is helping users [02:12] I wouldn't for a few reasons...1 I don't like Gnome as it stands right now at all...it isn't for me, i can't use it, and there really aren't any features in it that I would want in KDE, and this goes vice-versa with many many gnome users when it comes to KDE [02:13] right, I'm not saying that Gnome or KDE, in their current form, should be that one [02:13] I take that back...I do like Tomboy :) [02:13] I just think that it would be smarter for us to combine forces [02:13] and make one DE that works right [02:14] same for email clients, while I'm at it [02:14] as long as the client isn't Thundertird or Evilution :) [02:14] Thunderbird works pretty well for me [02:14] Evolution sucks for me though [02:14] actually, as it stands, Kontact/KMail either...now when we get the bugs worked out with that, then it will change [02:14] I don't like anything Mozilla [02:14] Thunderbird is the closet I've seen [02:15] closest [02:15] but I'm using gmail now [02:15] you don't like firefox? [02:15] haha, you seen the closet :) [02:15] PhreeStyle-home: nope [02:15] I prefer IE 7 over FF [02:15] I don't want to use FF either [02:15] but it's the best I've got [02:15] what do you use? Konqueror? [02:15] Epiphony is good [02:15] Konqi yes [02:15] epiphany has some really troublesome "features" [02:16] otherwise it's ok [02:16] knoqi is just weird [02:16] ya, but isn't that going to change with the adaptation of webkit? I think I read that somewhere [02:16] it works ok though [02:16] nixternal: what is? [02:16] ya, konqi is weird from the beginning..but once you figure it out, it is great [02:16] Ephiphony [02:16] oh, maybe [02:16] my issues are with the UI [02:17] I couldn't really care less about the rendering engine [02:17] I like the minimalistic ui of it [02:17] I don't know, I'm just afraid I'm coming to think that all FLOSS sucks [02:18] lol [02:18] it's just community based so it's more fun [02:18] I have been using it for over 10 years now, so I am more used to it than any other I guess === merriam_ [n=merriam@85-211-20-34.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:19] I've been using Linux solid for 5 years now [02:19] and almost every week I swear I'm gonna go back to Windows [02:19] see, you can never go back now [02:19] then I reboot Windows and go ewww [02:19] but OS X ... that's a touch one [02:20] I really like OS X [02:20] s/touch/tough/ [02:20] I have gone back to windows one time for 2 years..and that was only because I got into gaming for a bit and was sick of the idiots in debian and slackware at the time [02:20] I use it for taxes [02:20] man, I have tried my hardest to get used to OS X and have never been successful [02:20] and sometimes for MS Office [02:20] I'm quite productive with OS X [02:20] it's like the best of all worlds [02:21] MS Office I will admit is the greatest thing Microsoft has ever created, and there will never be an office suite that powerful [02:21] it's got the *nix thing going [02:21] but it's not half-bakes like Linux :-) [02:21] yea they need to make a DE like osx [02:21] s/bakes/baked/ [02:21] well, it's not really the DE I like [02:21] heh, first thing I did with my OS X install I had for a few months was install KDE on it [02:21] I can't stand the OS X DE at all [02:21] it just work, never crashes [02:22] I will definitely give you that [02:22] it looks professional [02:22] has lots of professional software [02:22] that's my problem with KDE...applications only open half the time [02:22] it's like Linux, but it works [02:22] I have never had any major issues with Linux, until I started messing with Ubuntu development releases [02:22] I can just *use* OS X, I don't have to fight with it [02:23] bah, I've had lots of problems with Linux [02:23] I remember running Debian Sid and Slackware development releases and never had any major issues [02:23] they went and screwed around with my Feisty in the last few days :( [02:23] now I can't logout [02:23] kernel? [02:23] I have to Ctrl-Backspace and relogin, then logout/hibernate [02:24] I had a problem with something like that recently...anytime i would log out or shut down or restart, the machine would just freeze [02:24] everything works fine [02:24] it just stays on the logout screen [02:24] i filed a bug, but didn't hear anything about it [02:24] and I can't get it to go away [02:24] but that's my thing [02:24] why should I have to file a bug [02:24] see, i can't even do that...if I hit Ctrl+Backspace it freezes too [02:24] this is a stable release for goodness sakes [02:25] well im running Gusty, so I understand stuff happens [02:25] and at work our linux boxes are getting hacked into more often than Windows and OS X [02:25] a stable release with that problem is bad news [02:25] I'm starting to wonder if Linux is really any good outside the community and openness [02:26] well, at my work, i run Dapper with a jabber, apache server [02:26] I've never had a problem with it once I got it running [02:26] it's been running 6 months solid...I almost never have to touch it [02:26] you know, every place I have ever worked, we never had a server hacked, whether it was windows, linux, hp-ux, solaris... [02:27] we have probably at least 1/year in my department [02:27] always linux [02:27] the uni IT guys think Linux is a joke for security [02:27] sounds like the sys admin isn't doing his/her job [02:27] we don't have sys admins [02:27] the funny thing is the Dapper server is public facing and has less problems than the internal Windows servers [02:29] I'm constantly having to fix my Feisty laptop [02:29] yea, they say that the only reason a linux server gets hacked is because it wasn't locked down right [02:29] sure [02:29] the problem is that nobody seems to lock them down right [02:30] well, I admit they don't really give you a how-to on securing your box for every situation. I've found quite a few scripts that do wonders for security [02:30] anyway, I'm just burned-out and venting [02:30] I didn't mean to take over the channel [02:30] my new favorite program DenyHosts for SSH...it's great [02:31] I had no idea how many IP addresses were trying to brute force my ssh server until I installed that [02:31] well, my department has static IPs, no firewall, and in one of the labs all the root passwords are the same :-) [02:31] OMG [02:31] PhreeStyle-home: I just changed my port, that solved it [02:31] LaserJock: you sound exactly how I did in 2000...I mean dead on exact..that was the reason I took a break before [02:32] well, i did that once, but there are scanners that do multiple ports looking for SSH [02:32] nothing is more dangerous than Linux in the hands of somebody who doesn't know how to secure it [02:32] very true [02:33] though it's not too hard now...much easier than it used to be...now, all I have to do is install firestarter and denyhosts and I'm good to go [02:34] we just have students that discover the joys of ssh [02:34] then leave their computer open to the world [02:34] I've even had to use firestarter as the corporate firewall when our cisco firewall crapped the bed and it seemed to work better than the cisco box [02:34] so the can login from home [02:34] yea thats bad [02:35] and there isn't any computing education at all [02:35] so people just get hacked, and then learn [02:35] you hope that it doesn't spread too far [02:35] eww...you guys should really firewall ssh from the outside [02:36] well, the line from IT is "meh, it happens, format and reinstall" [02:36] firewall in general really [02:37] I guess that's the beauty of it...if it were a windows machine you'd spend a better part of the day putting it back online [02:38] I still wish we had a DE that worked right :-) [02:38] but they are pretty good, admittedly [02:39] if they just weren't so buggy [02:39] yea me too....for now, gnome is my choice...for my needs...but really I think they all have a long way to go before they are considered workplace-ready [02:40] I wish it were home-ready [02:40] it's great for my work [02:40] a home user can get over the quirks, but not a business user [02:40] heh, I'm the total opposite :-) [02:40] at work I can mess around with it and make sure things work [02:41] at home it's not just me using the computer, I gotta make sure it works [02:41] like I lost printing the other day [02:41] that did not make the wife happy [02:41] lol, that sucks [02:41] now I gotta wait for somebody to fix it [02:42] well, I gotta file a bug, wait a few months, then maybe somebody will mark it invalid because it's too old ;-) [02:42] admittedly, work and home things are buggy...very bugg7y [02:42] lol, i know [02:42] I don't think any of the 20 or so bugs I've submitted to any of the projects have actually gone anywhere [02:43] hmm, I wonder how many bugs I've reported [02:44] 55 it seems [02:44] lol, that's crazy [02:44] i can totally see that though [02:44] well, most of the bugs are packaging process bugs [02:44] requesting syncs and stuff [02:45] and even though there are alot of bugs i like to think that one day they will get better [02:45] way to be positive :-) [02:45] i try :) [02:46] good [02:46] stay positive, it keeps you healthy [02:47] very true [02:48] ya, less hairloss or gray hair :) [02:51] and i dont need anymore of either one [02:52] yeah, I've lost so much hair since starting Ubuntu development :/ [02:53] what do you develop? [02:53] I'm a Core Developer, I mostly work on Edubuntu now [02:53] and I can attest to his hairloss ;p [02:53] although, I am losing mine now [02:53] I'm also a doc team member [02:53] lol [02:54] amongst some other things that I need to get rid of [02:54] he is the trinity, that is what he is [02:54] well, I've been looking to learn how to develop in linux...i only do c# on windows right now, but I want to get into in Ubuntu now too [02:54] Ubuntu uses that c# garbage :) === nixternal shouldn't talk, KDE is using it now [02:55] nixternal: I'm only a member of the trinity, not the whole thing ;-) [02:55] wow, didn't know that [02:55] we have lots of C# really [02:55] PhreeStyle-home: Mono is imbread within Gnome, and it is in Strigi for KDE [02:55] fspot, tomboy, banshee [02:55] what is the core written in, C? [02:55] for gnome yes [02:55] anything [02:56] C/C++ python perl [02:56] that covers most of it I think [02:56] ruby's getting pretty popular too [02:56] wow...I learned the basic python language, but gui programming for it is quite fuzzy [02:56] especially in KDE it seems to me [02:57] like i don't know which one to choose...and I hate the look of tk [02:57] for the most part nobody cares what you write in as long as it works and it gets done [02:57] PhreeStyle-home: pygtk is the way to go [02:57] well i looked into wxPython, but its complicated [02:57] why pygtk? [02:58] haven't heard alot about it other than not many use it (supposedly) [02:59] pfft [02:59] most stuff GUI stuff written for Ubuntu is in pygtk [03:00] really?...see I asked what ubuntu python stuff was written in, but no one replied to the post [03:00] most people I know use pygtk or pyqt [03:00] I'll have to look into that then [03:02] what's your opinion on java? [03:03] hmm === nixternal likes java [03:03] I don't have a problem with the language really [03:03] it just sucks because we can't put most Java apps in Ubuntu [03:03] it is slow, just like python...but it is good for cross platform type of stuff [03:03] ya, the whole licensing thing sucks [03:03] until they finish open sourceing it right? [03:03] correct [03:04] so I think it's kinda misleading to claim an app is open source if it's written in Java :-) [03:04] true [03:04] well, i guess it's open source, just not open source written in an open language [03:04] but yeah, I think when they finish open sourceing it there will be a big explosion of Java apps [03:05] the explosion is already starting [03:05] I see java apps for everything [03:05] I just never got into it because I always saw it as a useful thing [03:05] I wasn't doing web or application development [03:05] yes, I see java apps everywhere [03:06] but not installed by default [03:06] or easy to get at [03:06] necessarily [03:06] how long you think it will take before it's open sourced? [03:06] supposedly by the end of this year is what I heard..but take that with a grain of salt [03:06] yea, that seems a bit soon [03:07] I suppose it's a lot of work [03:07] I'm not sure why exactly [03:07] i would think so...a language like that generic enough to run on so many platforms...gotta be alot of cide [03:07] code* [03:07] ya, if you want to open source it with the GPL, just apply the language...but they said something about some of the infrastructure they want to not make open source or some garbage [03:08] yeah, but why would they have to rewrite it? [03:08] just release the code :-) [03:08] amen! [03:08] well, i think they have to go through it all and make sure they are not giving out any trade secrets or something [03:08] I imagine the delay is them getting out all the stuff that's either patent infringement/illegal or they don't want to open source parts of it [03:09] oh well, it'll come [03:09] Edubuntu will jump on it for sure when it does [03:10] its by far one of the most taught languages now from what I've seen [03:10] between it and C# [03:10] I wouldn't know too much [03:10] it's almost impossible to get a C/C++ class [03:10] really? [03:10] I tried finding one and couldn't [03:11] I know in my field Java is popular because it's like the non-programmer language [03:11] at least one from a place with a reputation [03:11] although my boss will only write in Fortran and C [03:11] yea i wasn't around for fortran :) [03:11] around? [03:12] when it was popular...i missed that bus [03:12] lots of people write Fortran 77 all the time [03:12] depends on the field [03:12] in the sciences it's still very dominante [03:13] didn't know that...i figured it was dying since I haven't heard much from it [03:13] nah, we're just not "real" programmers ;-) [03:13] :) [03:13] NASA uses a lot of fortran, for instance [03:13] and the weather people [03:13] NASA uses alot of everything [03:14] any time you need serious number crunching [03:14] for every language, is see "NASA uses it" [03:14] Fortan still beats C [03:14] python is creeping in though [03:15] I think my boss did Fortran back in the day [03:15] python is kinda slow though from what I hear...along side java [03:15] well, the key is you do all the speed-sensitive stuff in fortran and glue it all together with python === kestrel_ [n=zen_love@wt1.core.wireless.fsr.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:16] there are really good python libraries for science written mostly in Fortran [03:17] I am hopefully going to take some more fortran classes next semester [03:17] fortran and c++ for scientist [03:17] there's not a ton to it [03:17] well, my thought for writting my first linux app was to make a front end for mounting cifs shares [03:17] just use lots of GOTO statements ;-) [03:17] haha right [03:17] I learned Fortran in high school many years ago [03:18] I'm learning C++ for a gnome app [03:19] but I'm really not a programmer [03:19] I'm really realizing that [03:19] hehe, I feel you there [03:19] you're a core dev though, right? how are you not a programmer? [03:19] I can write some code, and it's textbook [03:20] then I get somebody like sbalneav and he hacks it apart [03:20] PhreeStyle-home: why would I need to be? [03:20] :-) [03:20] I'm a chemist [03:20] I can barely make a shell script compared to a real programmer [03:20] oh...yea I know nothing about chemistry...slept through that day in science class [03:21] but being an Ubuntu developer has gotten me more into application development [03:22] well if you're a Ubuntu dev, what do you do exactly? [03:22] I package stuff, fix bugs, write documentation, whatever needs to be done [03:23] a lot of it has been community development too, training people [03:23] heh, you do way more than that... ie. blueprints, gsoc mentor...those ring a bell? [03:23] well, I do what I can [03:23] and then some [03:23] none of it's that special [03:23] I do nothing but bother people, and somehow I made my membership [03:24] I wanna learn how to fix bugs eventually because I find them all the time and I feel like posting them doesn't do any good [03:24]