[12:42] I'll setup a vote tomorrow (promise), Have to catch some ZzZ's now (GMT+1). Thanks for all the info people :) [12:49] there is a KOffice by default blueprint that imbrandon created last year out there somewhere === DaSkreech [n=ubuntu@72.252.28.11] has joined #kubuntu-devel [01:42] can I connect to wifi from the command line? [01:45] yup [01:45] ifup :) [01:46] how do I choose what ap to connect to? [01:49] sudo ifup ethX === nosrednaekim [n=michael@01-100.200.popsite.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel [01:49] DaSkreech: I usually do iwconfig ath0 essid "essidname" [01:49] that is another way [01:49] sudo.... [01:50] :) [01:50] DaSkreech: of course, if you want to be specific, do iwconfig ath0 ap "TH:AT:AP:AD:DR:E:SS" [01:50] and subsitute ath0 for your iface [01:50] and sudo it [01:50] XD [01:50] I Can't connect through knetworkmanager [01:50] it's getting annoying [01:51] DaSkreech: not unheard of.. [01:51] DaSkreech: welcome to the club [01:51] mhb: that's why you connect from the command line? [01:52] yep [01:52] DaSkreech: yes [01:56] mhb: thanks to your separating of the backend off the restricted-manager, i'm trying to write a ncurses frontend! [01:56] knetworkmangler rocks! [01:56] nosrednaekim: you are? [01:57] trying :) needs to be done (I think) and I don't have to load any silly VM stuff to work on it. [01:58] nosrednaekim: there are some pretty ugly hacks we need to get rid of in the next development cycle [01:59] I'm sure :) [01:59] nosrednaekim: but you shouldn't be that much affected if you subclass RMCommon [02:00] thats what I figured... I'd just parallel everything in RMKDE and I shouldn't have a problem with dirty hacks (I hope) [02:01] nosrednaekim: right. There's a lot of helpful docstrings in RMCommon and RMKDE === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #kubuntu-devel [02:01] mhb:where does knetworkmanager fail for you? [02:01] nixternal: you really think that's wise? [02:01] hahahaha [02:01] man, just sell me out from the get go [02:02] SlimG: Sorry what was the consensus? [02:02] DaSkreech: well, it disconnects every 20 minutes or so ... and my Atheros card needs a special cmd line parameter or it disables itself randomly and I have to reboot quite often [02:02] you guys, LaserJock thinks that KDE stinks! [02:02] heah [02:02] haha [02:02] I didn't say that exactly [02:02] let's burn him! [02:02] mhb: mine fails on configuring device [02:03] well it does at home [02:03] it works elsewhere [02:03] Krukify him! [02:03] nixternal: it seems a lot more "in your face" [02:03] lol [02:03] I think it must be the size thing [02:03] ok, replacing C with K only works in some instances there DaSkreech [02:03] ya, 1024x768 sucks for KDE, I will admit that [02:04] nixternal: I know :) [02:04] man, I haven't look at KMenu in a while...it can get out of hand rather quickly [02:04] I'm really going to fork KDE one day and replace all those Ks [02:04] you me forc [02:04] :) [02:04] but if we are going to beat him we might as well do it with forke! [02:04] to "m"'s? [02:05] monqueror [02:05] mate [02:05] amarom [02:05] haha [02:05] well, I'd vote for some sensible names [02:05] oh come on.... who needs sensible names? open source isn't sensible. [02:05] there is no such thing as a sensible name in any free software project that I have seen [02:06] what's sensible [02:06] damn nosrednaekim, we read each others mind there [02:06] you cursing at me? HUH? [02:06] I work on Gnome Chemistry Utils, that seems like a sensible name [02:06] I think that deserves.. a..... [02:06] !ohmy [02:06] Please watch your language and keep this channel family friendly. [02:06] LaserJock: Gnome isn't sensible [02:06] >:D === LaserJock hands nixternal a bar of soap [02:06] PDF Reader, Burning, Text Editor, Instant Messenger [02:07] rename them to their descriptions then? [02:07] Kopete means "it's kicking you" in my language === DaSkreech brings up what GNOME stands for [02:07] hahaha [02:07] nixternal: your new pass works? [02:07] ryanakca: yes, already setup [02:07] (judging from last log) [02:07] s/last log/lastlog/ [02:07] good :) [02:07] just need to add the new address to my gpg key [02:08] so amarok -> "Kickin' Audio", kate -> "Editor from Heaven" ? [02:08] so who is going to do the kickoff package for kubuntu? I just looked at it, and I must say, it stinks [02:08] oh, thanks for reminding me... I'll be in Toronto in a couple weekends... I'll try to get my key signed [02:08] nixternal: kickoff? that terrible menu? [02:08] nixternal: I've seen some .debs in the PPA pool, are the KDE4 packages ready? [02:10] geeze, are there any preferences for katapault? [02:10] LaserJock: yes [02:10] LaserJock: alt+space and then once the window is up, do ctrl+c to get the admin menu [02:10] scream at Mez for that one [02:10] ah, that's intuitive [02:10] right [02:10] actually, it is Kubuntu's fault, because we removed the icon from the system tray [02:11] argg, for goodness sakes [02:11] can't KDE make a decent default window [02:11] Raptor! [02:12] mhb: I think binner is still working on the kde 4 port [02:12] I was just looking through his work repo on kde svn [02:13] I thought about packaging it, but it would need new artwork and what not...or can you run it w/o that stupid kbfx garbage [02:13] nosrednaekim: it is terrible isn't it [02:13] Anyone seen Raptor [02:13] nixternal: I don't like it... [02:13] why anyone would take that idea from vista I would never know [02:13] either do it...to much clicking just to get where I want [02:14] plus, with krunner and katapult, the menu is useless now :) [02:14] I wonder how the K menu plasmoid will look like [02:14] LaserJock: it is tough trying to get used to another DE isn't it? it is weird how you can pick out all of the faults when you are used to something else [02:15] I want to start coding some plasmoids...in different languages and see how they rock [02:15] they say you can do java, ruby, c++, whatever you want..should be interesting [02:15] nixternal: sure, I must've become more of a DE connoisseur since joining Ubuntu. I ran KDE for a couple years before getting into Ubuntu [02:15] nixternal: it should be, but can you use other KDE binding in those languages? [02:16] I want python bindings for it... [02:16] mhb: ruby yes, but I don't know about KDE binding in java...I know with jambi there are at least qt bindings for it now [02:16] nixternal: where we having the "on DE to rule them all" conversation in #ubuntu-doc the other day? [02:16] ya [02:16] one DE should rule them all [02:17] What does the configuring device step on Knetworkmanger do? [02:17] of course, the DE should have a *decent* APIs [02:17] nixternal: then I think I'm making my point to myself [02:17] bah [02:17] KDE is very nice, it just does some things pretty badly :-) [02:18] badly or differently? [02:18] and no DE with bindings like: gtk.status_icon_new_from_icon_name() should rule them all [02:18] badly [02:18] mhb: Wasn't that Raptor? [02:18] mhb: hahaha [02:18] differently I can handle [02:18] that is nothing, I was looking through the glib and gtk stuff when nsplugin was broke [02:18] but some things are just not done very well [02:18] I swear they had a binding that was > 80 columns wide [02:19] LaserJock: lke? [02:19] the UI [02:19] Eh? [02:19] in the sense that I'm constantly having to move elements around in a Window in KDE [02:19] heh, and didn't the KDE UI actually score higher than any other Linux UI? [02:19] actually what they use in Ubuntu is GNME [02:19] nixternal: on what test? [02:20] there was a list email a while back about usability and it had like 4 or 5 different DEs [02:20] because calling it "Object" is an insult to all the other object-oriented APIs in the world [02:20] KDE seems to have good UI elements, but once you put them in a window they seem to all go to crap === jack_wyt [n=jack@124.64.104.125] has joined #kubuntu-devel [02:21] LaserJock: that wouldn't be KDE wholeheartedly, that would a developer on a UI rampage..that is why with KDE 4 they have done usability standard tests big time [02:21] you might be able to code c++ with the best of them, but lord that doesn't make you an artist when it comes to putting the gui together :) [02:21] ever seen eric? thats a terrible UI [02:21] nixternal: did they? Well, check out KDE4 ktorrent :o) [02:21] nosrednaekim: eric is god awful ui [02:22] nixternal: yes, I can certainly understand that [02:22] mhb: is it nice or not? [02:22] a right click menu 800 pixels high. [02:22] :) [02:22] nixternal: let me do a screenshot [02:22] actually, I don't like the current ktorrent ui [02:22] everything I was used to and liked, isn't there anymore or has moved into something else [02:22] nixternal: but then there are all my pet kde peeves, but thos seem to be more personal [02:23] ya, I still have some KDE pet peeves myself [02:23] KDE has always had a lot of screen artifacts and just looks childish [02:23] but I've come across a lot of people that say the opposite [02:23] but with KDE you can make it look however you want [02:23] I can make Gnome do the same thing [02:23] and I don't have to do anything ;-) [02:24] sorry, I will never say that Gnome looks better than any other DE...I think WindowMaker and IceWM looks better :) [02:24] but then again, that is just me [02:24] ?!? are you serious [02:24] don't you have to use some 3rd party app with gnome in order to tweak the looks? [02:24] IceWM lookes aweful [02:24] haha, I know, and so does Gnome [02:24] nixternal: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinB%c3%b6hm?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=ktorrent4.png [02:24] nixternal: what are you smokin ;-) [02:25] nixternal: I've never installed a 3rd party app in gnome [02:25] mhb: that is a mess [02:25] so I'm not sure what you're refering to [02:25] I thought I read that about gnome on the mailing list where Linus tore into them [02:26] nixternal: yes, especially the sidebar called "Groups" and the whole tab interface [02:26] wow, that is really really ugly [02:26] nixternal: I really *don't* know why a torrent app needs tabs [02:27] nixternal: there might have been some stuff a long time ago [02:27] I haven't been using Gnome for very long [02:27] mhb: cause tabs are hawt [02:27] DaSkreech: heh, right :o) It's the "they won't allow tabs in Dolphin, let's stick them into everything else" movement :o) [02:28] Dolphin won't have tabs [02:28] Biiiii [02:28] I mean [02:28] Boooooo [02:28] :) [02:28] no tabs in dolphin ???wow [02:28] file managers is one place they NEED tabs [02:29] so do you think KDE4 will actually be very usable for 4.0 or will 4.1 be the one that's gonna kick butt? [02:29] hard to guess at this stage [02:29] LaserJock: 4.5 will kick butt [02:29] I think KDE4 will be usable since they added the two extra betas [02:30] I guess with the extra 2 months maybe it'll be be moreso [02:30] 4.0 will stroke it ..... [02:30] they don't have even the K menu plasmoid ready, how can I do any realistic guesses about it? :o) [02:31] I'd guess that thre being major parts missing/unusable would mean 4.0 is gonna be rough [02:31] *there [02:31] nixternal: see my pm? [02:31] who said they are going to be missing by that time. [02:31] ? [02:31] well, I don't believe you can get it ready that fast [02:32] a plasmoid is easy to write. [02:32] I think...... [02:32] yeah, but get it properly tested, etc.? [02:33] nosrednaekim: I guess so, but they still need to create a functional kicker-replacement that can hold plasmoids [02:34] yeah.... thats a problem. [02:34] nosrednaekim: but I'm looking forward to plasmoids, we're going to be able to do a brand new desktop with them [02:35] its sorta like superkaramba, which I wrote a wattmeter plugin for... that was one of the easiest GUI's I have ever written. [02:35] nosrednaekim: yeah, it's superkaramba+kmenu applets merged together [02:35] anybody know if there is a bug about konsole not having a default shortcut for Copy? [02:37] Dunno if there's a bug, but it's been that way since forever. [02:38] imbrandon and I had a fight about it once, it's been like my #1 KDE bug [02:38] LaserJock: use the kde4 version. [02:40] ScottK: oh man, you've gone to the dark side as well? [02:40] ;-) [02:41] or do you just hang out here to be with the "cool crowd" [02:41] ScottK: You are apointyclicky lover?? [02:41] What do you mean? I've never run Ubuntu. I've only ever seen it at the library and one the laptop of one guy I work with. [02:41] ScottK: weird, I never knew ... [02:42] Most of the stuff I work on packaging for is server stuff, so it wouldn't particulalry come up. [02:42] mhm, same here [02:43] I used to work mostly on Science apps [02:43] My big Kubuntu accomplishement so far is to get GPG and S/MIME signing and decryption by default in Kmail/Kontact for Gutsy. [02:43] Right. [02:43] now I work mostl on Edubuntu though [02:44] although, it's half Gnome half KDE ;-) [02:44] Along those lines, keep an eye on Mok0. He works at some kind of sciency company and his goal is to package all the apps they use for Ubuntu. [02:44] oh, nice [02:44] I've seen a bit from him [02:44] They are also an all KDE shop, so he's doing some KDE stuff too. [02:44] He's knew to Debian packaging, but very knowlegeable about building software in general. I recent Red Hat convert. [02:45] I just get upset having to pick KDE or Gnome [02:46] LaserJock: Why? [02:46] because I want to write it once [02:46] and work for everybody [02:46] it seems so wasteful [02:46] to have gtk vs qt [02:46] etc. [02:47] LaserJock: right. [02:47] Sure, but the original rationale for gtk disappeared a long time ago, so don't look here... [02:47] but now people have "locked in" [02:47] the only thing that ties me to Gnome now is I'm working upstream on gchemutils [02:47] well, if I can judge by my unprofessional eyes, there is a bigger chance of rewriting the whole gtk bindings in Qt than vice versa [02:48] makes sense [02:48] LaserJock: use xlib [02:48] it would still be an insane project [02:48] doesn't seem to be a big issue [02:48] ScottK: GIMP doesn't exist anymore? [02:48] DaSkreech: how much code did you write in xlib? [02:49] well, the point of depending on a DE is to get integration [02:49] mhb: I'm just saying if he doesn't want to be tied into either he has a choice [02:49] The true fact is that there are two, there will be two, and that's not going to change. [02:50] ScottK: I guess, just seems stupid to me [02:50] Agreed, but today it is what it is. [02:51] I should just write CLI apps so I don't have to worry about it ;-) [02:51] LaserJock: that's close to what I just said :) [02:51] LaserJock: it is stupid, but it is even more silly to expect the big GTK/GNOME devs to sit down and say "well, lets talk straight. Their libraries are better than ours. Let's migrate to them." [02:51] well, I would rather see a combination [02:51] as I think qt looks really bad [02:52] but it seems like it's better to code in [02:52] someone still has to solve the GPL/LGPL feud [02:52] qt looks bad? never heard THAT one b4. [02:52] well, I've never seen a qt app I'd say looked good [02:52] they often work fine, and are well done [02:52] Now it's going to be that QT is GPL v2 only and so now that counts as still evil, so no meger. [02:52] but they just look bad [02:53] ScottK: yeah, that's the non-technical argument we can't do anything with. [02:53] ScottK: LGPL is more permissive than GPL, and people with influence are happy about it. [02:54] Well it was a similar non-technical argument that caused Gnome to be created. [02:54] it just seems weird to me that we can't all get behind one system that works [02:54] thats the way Open source works:) [02:54] it seems like a huge amount of wasted effort [02:54] nosrednaekim: saddly yes, it seems [02:55] oh.. it is... [02:55] LaserJock: yeah, I find it ironic, too. We have one system (GNOME) that big distros seem to prefer, and is more usable (at the current state), but the other DE is really easier to code for. [02:56] ScottK: Whats the reasoning behind GTK has no purpose? [02:56] The only reason (originally) for Gnome was that qt wasn't GPL. [02:57] So it's original purpose is (and has for a long time) been no longer valid. Not that that stops this or any other project. [02:57] ScottK: right but GTK existed before that argument [02:57] or discussion even [02:58] OK. I guess I should say Gnome, not GTK then. [02:58] thanks :) [02:58] KDE was founded first, though :o) [02:58] wasn't CDE before KDE [02:58] if only GIMP used the KDE libraries :o) [02:59] mhb: Wouldn't that be a coup :) [02:59] Seriously though, the competiion between the two, I think, produces a better result than annointing one and "planning" it. [02:59] If more bodies made better software, then Vista wouldn't suck. [02:59] yeah, but wouldn't people focusing on the same product help? [02:59] ScottK: More bodies generally do make better software [03:00] that's kinda the idea behind more eyes make bugs shallow [03:00] But true competition does push innovation. [03:00] KDE and Gnome push each other to be better. [03:00] It's when no one has a plan for the small parts but has a plan for the large parts that things go nuts [03:00] .o0(And E!) === DaSkreech grins atta himself [03:01] where the heck is Hawkwind? [03:02] long gone, I guess [03:02] Bye all! have to go do banal things like...ummm dishes.. === stdin [i=stdin@pdpc/supporter/active/stdin] has joined #kubuntu-devel === ScottK has dishes to do and children to put to bed. [03:11] DaSkreech: hawkwind has been gone for a while [03:12] isn't he the one that ran those Mandriva repos? [03:12] dunno [03:12] He and I were talking about a ebuntu [03:12] the guy who started it left without a word [03:13] Though come to think of it so did Hawkwind === DaSkreech has the starting of a open-Sorce murder novel [03:14] a crazy multimillionaire gets several high-profile developers together on an open-source OS ... only to satisfy his twisted mind by killing them === coreymon77 [n=coreymon@CPE000f663685cd-CM0011e67c2935.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #kubuntu-devel [03:14] yeah, that would be a smash it [03:14] hit [03:15] They can get out [03:15] only by copperating [03:15] and using the source! [03:16] DaSkreech: you mistake it with the next sequel to the Saw horror, where MS developers have to choose either death or releasing their code under GPL [03:16] and time is running out [03:17] Or the crazy developer who argues with his wife in a high profile case and she turns up very very missing and he geets arrested for killing her [03:18] mhb: that has got to be the best novel introduction I have ever seen :) [03:18] No one would ever believe that could happen. [03:19] DaSkreech: that was a little low there, poor Reiser :) [03:19] I have no intention of utterly destroying Microsoft [03:19] that just happens to be a by product [03:20] hmm, a bit offtopic now, but I think we should reach out to the community more somehow [03:20] I'm hearing "Kubuntu is not as polished as Ubuntu" from many sides but I haven't seen many bugs about it [03:21] ditto [03:21] actually, I heard today that PCLinuxOS is more polished than Kubuntu [03:22] I mean, everything does work out of the box, but you get all of the binary blobs, which I know people want [03:22] mhb: maybe we should raise the ire of the kommunity ? [03:23] hmm, perhaps we could do a Kubuntu artwork contest [03:23] because the KDE4 contest seemed to bring many answers [03:23] at least kwwii said that, AFAIK [03:23] it is funny though, I have been running Kubuntu on this laptop since Dapper and have dist-upgraded at the beginning of each dev cycle, and never once have I had to wipe it out and start over...to me, Kubuntu is polished perfectly for me...but there in itself lies a problem..Kubuntu isn't all about "ME" [03:24] I think we have done artwork contests before and even setup the art.ubuntu.com site, which is rather dead [03:24] nixternal: did we? [03:24] I think so..although I am not 100% positive [03:24] !worksforme | nixternal [03:24] ass [03:24] wait a second, it didn't work :) [03:24] nixternal: Common Sense: Just because you can, does not mean you should (and especially recommend to others). Think before you do. "Works for me" does not mean it is ok. The latest version of everything is not always useful if you aim for stability. Please see http://geekosophical.net/random/worksforme/ [03:24] damn bot! [03:24] argh [03:24] ok :) [03:24] there it is [03:25] what do they mean by polished? [03:25] as in functionality or look? [03:25] my lord, that "worksforme" link is the worst representation of that statement [03:25] Speeding might get you somewhere faster, but it is dangerous to do so. Sometimes speeding is not really faster, as you still have to stop at lights and others going the speed limit actually catch up to you. [03:26] DaSkreech: I think 70% look, 30% functionality (and we lack some when you compare K with Ubuntu) [03:26] that statement right there is one [03:26] You may speed occasionally and not crash, however many, many people each year do crash while speeding. [03:26] mhb: I know we are about a cycle behind them [03:26] and that one...many people die each year idling in the car and driving slow [03:26] mhb: ever tried looking at it the other way? [03:26] they have a bullet point in Gutsy that they can print to PDF [03:26] ?? [03:26] DaSkreech: the other way? What do you mean? [03:27] wha? You mean you couldn't do that before that's sad [03:27] lets not forget about their X configuration gui now, which we have had for a long time in kcontrol [03:27] mhb: people keep looking at the list of new thigns happening in ubuntu and asking where is that in Kubuntu [03:27] yeah. [03:27] whereas if you make a list of things that Kubuntu can do that ubuntu can't we probably have a larger feature set [03:27] without a doubt [03:28] I think we should hire a graphic artist to work full time on Kubuntu, then we'd look polished [03:28] then again, gnome does attack their bugs quicker than kde does [03:29] nixternal: bigger team [03:30] I don't think so [03:30] nixternal: and we're kind of deadlocked with KDE4 underway [03:30] Gnome is always looking for more devs [03:30] mhb: that is true...however there are bugs on b.k.o that are 5+ years old [03:30] one being the ability to click a link in Konsole [03:30] bbiaf [03:31] that's not fixed yet? [03:31] nixternal: we can a) develop (for) something we won't show in the next release b) develop (for) something that is here, but won't be for long [03:31] it is, in KDE4 [03:32] ah that's what I thought [03:32] as an aside strigi still dies on ~/.mozilla-thunderbird on the Live dc [03:32] Cd === coreymon77 [n=coreymon@CPE000f663685cd-CM0011e67c2935.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #kubuntu-devel [03:35] I think that we should probably be able to move faster though since we only really care about stuff at KDE level and above === coreymon77 [n=coreymon@CPE000f663685cd-CM0011e67c2935.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #kubuntu-devel [03:42] argh still can't connect [03:43] SlimG: ping === Jucato [n=jucato@124.106.192.130] has joined #kubuntu-devel [03:44] Jucato!!! [03:45] hi DaSkreech [03:51] did you all knew about http://www.kubuntu-art.org/ ? [03:51] yep [03:51] yes === DaSkreech speaks for everyone [03:51] nixternal showed that link a few months ago I think [03:51] I've never seen it until know [03:51] er.. s/yes/I did/ [03:52] now === coreymon77 [n=coreymon@CPE000f663685cd-CM0011e67c2935.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #kubuntu-devel === coreymon [n=coreymon@CPE000f663685cd-CM0011e67c2935.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #kubuntu-devel [04:03] Jucato: oh kwick kwestion [04:03] make it kuick! [04:04] What do you think stands between koffice and a spot in the defaut office slot in Kubuntu === claydoh [n=claydoh@66-252-51-185.dyn-adsl.midmaine.net] has joined #kubuntu-devel [04:04] working with MS formats imho [04:05] That includes ooxml ? [04:05] no. just the old .doc stuff I think [04:05] and afaik, based on the wiki page, when OO.o was chosen to be the default on Kubuntu, KOffice wasn't that good yet [04:05] but we're planning a transition to KOffice 2.0.. so we're waiting on that [04:06] how much has that improved in 2.0? [04:07] I know that overall it's a new beast [04:07] not sure about the MS format support. they're not that interested in that aspect from what I know [04:08] anyway, brb [04:08] So we may still not ship === coreymon [n=coreymon@CPE000f663685cd-CM0011e67c2935.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #kubuntu-devel === coreymon [n=coreymon@CPE000f663685cd-CM0011e67c2935.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #kubuntu-devel === Jucato [n=jucato@124.106.192.130] has joined #kubuntu-devel === coreymon [n=coreymon@CPE000f663685cd-CM0011e67c2935.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #kubuntu-devel [04:36] oi oi [04:37] hi nixternal! [04:38]