[12:42] <SlimG> I'll setup a vote tomorrow (promise), Have to catch some ZzZ's now (GMT+1). Thanks for all the info people :)
[12:49] <nixternal> there is a KOffice by default blueprint that imbrandon created last year out there somewhere
[01:42] <DaSkreech> can I connect to wifi from the command line?
[01:45] <nixternal> yup
[01:45] <nixternal> ifup :)
[01:46] <DaSkreech> how do I choose what ap to connect to?
[01:49] <nixternal> sudo ifup ethX
[01:49] <mhb> DaSkreech: I usually do iwconfig ath0 essid "essidname"
[01:49] <nixternal> that is another way
[01:49] <nosrednaekim> sudo....
[01:50] <nosrednaekim> :)
[01:50] <mhb> DaSkreech: of course, if you want to be specific, do iwconfig ath0 ap "TH:AT:AP:AD:DR:E:SS"
[01:50] <mhb> and subsitute ath0 for your iface
[01:50] <mhb> and sudo it
[01:50] <nosrednaekim> XD
[01:50] <DaSkreech> I Can't connect through knetworkmanager
[01:50] <DaSkreech> it's getting annoying
[01:51] <nosrednaekim> DaSkreech: not unheard of..
[01:51] <mhb> DaSkreech: welcome to the club
[01:51] <DaSkreech> mhb: that's why you connect from the command line?
[01:52] <nosrednaekim> yep
[01:52] <mhb> DaSkreech: yes
[01:56] <nosrednaekim> mhb: thanks to your separating of the backend off the restricted-manager, i'm trying to write a ncurses frontend!
[01:56] <nixternal> knetworkmangler rocks!
[01:56] <mhb> nosrednaekim: you are?
[01:57] <nosrednaekim> trying :) needs to be done (I think) and I don't have to load any silly VM stuff to work on it.
[01:58] <mhb> nosrednaekim: there are some pretty ugly hacks we need to get rid of in the next development cycle
[01:59] <nosrednaekim> I'm sure :)
[01:59] <mhb> nosrednaekim: but you shouldn't be that much affected if you subclass RMCommon
[02:00] <nosrednaekim> thats what I figured... I'd just parallel everything in RMKDE and I shouldn't have a problem with dirty hacks (I hope)
[02:01] <mhb> nosrednaekim: right. There's a lot of helpful docstrings in RMCommon and RMKDE
[02:01] <DaSkreech> mhb:where does knetworkmanager fail for you?
[02:01] <LaserJock> nixternal: you really think that's wise?
[02:01] <nixternal> hahahaha
[02:01] <nixternal> man, just sell me out from the get go
[02:02] <DaSkreech> SlimG: Sorry what was the consensus?
[02:02] <mhb> DaSkreech: well, it disconnects every 20 minutes or so ... and my Atheros card needs a special cmd line parameter or it disables itself randomly and I have to reboot quite often
[02:02] <nixternal> you guys, LaserJock thinks that KDE stinks!
[02:02] <LaserJock> heah
[02:02] <nixternal> haha
[02:02] <LaserJock> I didn't say that exactly
[02:02] <mhb> let's burn him!
[02:02] <DaSkreech> mhb: mine fails on configuring device
[02:03] <DaSkreech>  well it does at home
[02:03] <DaSkreech>  it works elsewhere
[02:03] <DaSkreech> Krukify him!
[02:03] <LaserJock> nixternal: it seems a lot more "in your face"
[02:03] <nosrednaekim> lol
[02:03] <LaserJock> I think it must be the size thing
[02:03] <nixternal> ok, replacing C with K only works in some instances there DaSkreech
[02:03] <nixternal> ya, 1024x768 sucks for KDE, I will admit that
[02:04] <DaSkreech> nixternal: I know :)
[02:04] <nixternal> man, I haven't look at KMenu in a while...it can get out of hand rather quickly
[02:04] <mhb> I'm really going to fork KDE one day and replace all those Ks
[02:04] <nixternal> you me forc
[02:04] <nixternal> :)
[02:04] <DaSkreech> but if we are going to beat him we might as well do it with forke!
[02:04] <nosrednaekim> to "m"'s?
[02:05] <nixternal> monqueror
[02:05] <nixternal> mate
[02:05] <nixternal> amarom
[02:05] <nixternal> haha
[02:05] <mhb> well, I'd vote for some sensible names
[02:05] <nosrednaekim> oh come on.... who needs sensible names? open source isn't sensible.
[02:05] <nixternal> there is no such thing as a sensible name in any free software project that I have seen
[02:06] <LaserJock> what's sensible
[02:06] <nixternal> damn nosrednaekim, we read each others mind there
[02:06] <nosrednaekim> you cursing at me? HUH?
[02:06] <LaserJock> I work on Gnome Chemistry Utils, that seems like a sensible name
[02:06] <nosrednaekim> I think that deserves.. a.....
[02:06] <nosrednaekim> !ohmy
[02:06] <ubotu> Please watch your language and keep this channel family friendly.
[02:06] <nixternal> LaserJock: Gnome isn't sensible
[02:06] <nosrednaekim> >:D
[02:06] <mhb> PDF Reader, Burning, Text Editor, Instant Messenger
[02:07] <nixternal> rename them to their descriptions then?
[02:07] <mhb> Kopete means "it's kicking you" in my language
[02:07] <nixternal> hahaha
[02:07] <ryanakca> nixternal: your new pass works?
[02:07] <nixternal> ryanakca: yes, already setup
[02:07] <ryanakca> (judging from last log)
[02:07] <ryanakca> s/last log/lastlog/
[02:07] <ryanakca> good :)
[02:07] <nixternal> just need to add the new address to my gpg key
[02:08] <LaserJock> so amarok -> "Kickin' Audio", kate -> "Editor from Heaven" ?
[02:08] <nixternal> so who is going to do the kickoff package for kubuntu? I just looked at it, and I must say, it stinks
[02:08] <ryanakca> oh, thanks for reminding me... I'll be in Toronto in a couple weekends... I'll try to get my key signed
[02:08] <nosrednaekim> nixternal: kickoff? that terrible menu?
[02:08] <mhb> nixternal: I've seen some .debs in the PPA pool, are the KDE4 packages ready?
[02:10] <LaserJock> geeze, are there any preferences for katapault?
[02:10] <nixternal> LaserJock: yes
[02:10] <nixternal> LaserJock: alt+space and then once the window is up, do ctrl+c to get the admin menu
[02:10] <nixternal> scream at Mez for that one
[02:10] <LaserJock> ah, that's intuitive
[02:10] <nixternal> right
[02:10] <nixternal> actually, it is Kubuntu's fault, because we removed the icon from the system tray
[02:11] <LaserJock> argg, for goodness sakes
[02:11] <LaserJock> can't KDE make a decent default window
[02:11] <DaSkreech> Raptor!
[02:12] <nixternal> mhb: I think binner is still working on the kde 4 port
[02:12] <nixternal> I was just looking through his work repo on kde svn
[02:13] <nixternal> I thought about packaging it, but it would need new artwork and what not...or can you run it w/o that stupid kbfx garbage
[02:13] <nixternal> nosrednaekim: it is terrible isn't it
[02:13] <DaSkreech> Anyone seen Raptor
[02:13] <nosrednaekim> nixternal: I don't like it...
[02:13] <nixternal> why anyone would take that idea from vista I would never know
[02:13] <nixternal> either do it...to much clicking just to get where I want
[02:14] <nixternal> plus, with krunner and katapult, the menu is useless now :)
[02:14] <mhb> I wonder how the K menu plasmoid will look like
[02:14] <nixternal> LaserJock: it is tough trying to get used to another DE isn't it? it is weird how you can pick out all of the faults when you are used to something else
[02:15] <nixternal> I want to start coding some plasmoids...in different languages and see how they rock
[02:15] <nixternal> they say you can do java, ruby, c++, whatever you want..should be interesting
[02:15] <LaserJock> nixternal: sure, I must've become more of a DE connoisseur since joining Ubuntu. I ran KDE for a couple years before getting into Ubuntu
[02:15] <mhb> nixternal: it should be, but can you use other KDE binding in those languages?
[02:16] <nosrednaekim> I want python bindings for it...
[02:16] <nixternal> mhb: ruby yes, but I don't know about KDE binding in java...I know with jambi there are at least qt bindings for it now
[02:16] <LaserJock> nixternal: where we having the "on DE to rule them all" conversation in #ubuntu-doc the other day?
[02:16] <nixternal> ya
[02:16] <mhb> one DE should rule them all
[02:17] <DaSkreech> What does the configuring device step on Knetworkmanger do?
[02:17] <mhb> of course, the DE should have a *decent* APIs
[02:17] <LaserJock> nixternal: then I think I'm making my point to myself
[02:17] <nixternal> bah
[02:17] <LaserJock> KDE is very nice, it just does some things pretty badly :-)
[02:18] <nixternal> badly or differently?
[02:18] <mhb> and no DE with bindings like: gtk.status_icon_new_from_icon_name() should rule them all
[02:18] <LaserJock> badly
[02:18] <DaSkreech> mhb: Wasn't that Raptor?
[02:18] <nixternal> mhb: hahaha
[02:18] <LaserJock> differently I can handle
[02:18] <nixternal> that is nothing, I was looking through the glib and gtk stuff when nsplugin was broke
[02:18] <LaserJock> but some things are just not done very well
[02:18] <nixternal> I swear they had a binding that was > 80 columns wide
[02:19] <DaSkreech> LaserJock: lke?
[02:19] <LaserJock> the UI
[02:19] <DaSkreech> Eh?
[02:19] <LaserJock> in the sense that I'm constantly having to move elements around in a Window in KDE
[02:19] <nixternal> heh, and didn't the KDE UI actually score higher than any other Linux UI?
[02:19] <mhb> actually what they use in Ubuntu is GNME
[02:19] <nosrednaekim> nixternal: on what test?
[02:20] <nixternal> there was a list email a while back about usability and it had like 4 or 5 different DEs
[02:20] <mhb> because calling it "Object" is an insult to all the other object-oriented APIs in the world
[02:20] <LaserJock> KDE seems to have good UI elements, but once you put them in a window they seem to all go to crap
[02:21] <nixternal> LaserJock: that wouldn't be KDE wholeheartedly, that would a developer on a UI rampage..that is why with KDE 4 they have done usability standard tests big time
[02:21] <nixternal> you might be able to code c++ with the best of them, but lord that doesn't make you an artist when it comes to putting the gui together :)
[02:21] <nosrednaekim> ever seen eric? thats a terrible UI
[02:21] <mhb> nixternal: did they? Well, check out KDE4 ktorrent :o)
[02:21] <nixternal> nosrednaekim: eric is god awful ui
[02:22] <LaserJock> nixternal: yes, I can certainly understand that
[02:22] <nixternal> mhb: is it nice or not?
[02:22] <nosrednaekim> a right click menu 800 pixels high.
[02:22] <nosrednaekim> :)
[02:22] <mhb> nixternal: let me do a screenshot
[02:22] <nixternal> actually, I don't like the current ktorrent ui
[02:22] <nixternal> everything I was used to and liked, isn't there anymore or has moved into something else
[02:22] <LaserJock> nixternal: but then there are all my pet kde peeves, but thos seem to be more personal
[02:23] <nixternal> ya, I still have some KDE pet peeves myself
[02:23] <LaserJock> KDE has always had a lot of screen artifacts and just looks childish
[02:23] <LaserJock> but I've come across a lot of people that say the opposite
[02:23] <nixternal> but with KDE you can make it look however you want
[02:23] <LaserJock> I can make Gnome do the same thing
[02:23] <LaserJock> and I don't have to do anything ;-)
[02:24] <nixternal> sorry, I will never say that Gnome looks better than any other DE...I think WindowMaker and IceWM looks better :)
[02:24] <nixternal> but then again, that is just me
[02:24] <LaserJock> ?!? are you serious
[02:24] <nixternal> don't you have to use some 3rd party app with gnome in order to tweak the looks?
[02:24] <LaserJock> IceWM lookes aweful
[02:24] <nixternal> haha, I know, and so does Gnome
[02:24] <mhb> nixternal: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinB%c3%b6hm?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=ktorrent4.png
[02:24] <LaserJock> nixternal: what are you smokin ;-)
[02:25] <LaserJock> nixternal: I've never installed a 3rd party app in gnome
[02:25] <nixternal> mhb: that is a mess
[02:25] <LaserJock> so I'm not sure what you're refering to
[02:25] <nixternal> I thought I read that about gnome on the mailing list where Linus tore into them
[02:26] <mhb> nixternal: yes, especially the sidebar called "Groups" and the whole tab interface
[02:26] <nixternal> wow, that is really really ugly
[02:26] <mhb> nixternal: I really *don't* know why a torrent app needs tabs
[02:27] <LaserJock> nixternal: there might have been some stuff a long time ago
[02:27] <LaserJock> I haven't been using Gnome for very long
[02:27] <DaSkreech> mhb: cause tabs are hawt
[02:27] <mhb> DaSkreech: heh, right :o) It's the "they won't allow tabs in Dolphin, let's stick them into everything else" movement :o)
[02:28] <DaSkreech> Dolphin won't have tabs
[02:28] <DaSkreech> Biiiii
[02:28] <DaSkreech> I mean
[02:28] <DaSkreech> Boooooo
[02:28] <DaSkreech> :)
[02:28] <nosrednaekim> no tabs in dolphin ???wow
[02:28] <nosrednaekim> file managers is one place they NEED tabs
[02:29] <LaserJock> so do you think KDE4 will actually be very usable for 4.0 or will 4.1 be the one that's gonna kick butt?
[02:29] <mhb> hard to guess at this stage
[02:29] <DaSkreech> LaserJock: 4.5 will kick butt
[02:29] <nosrednaekim> I think KDE4 will be usable since they added the two extra betas
[02:30] <LaserJock> I guess with the extra 2 months maybe it'll be be moreso
[02:30] <DaSkreech> 4.0 will stroke it .....
[02:30] <mhb> they don't have even the K menu plasmoid ready, how can I do any realistic guesses about it? :o)
[02:31] <LaserJock> I'd guess that thre being major parts missing/unusable would mean 4.0 is gonna be rough
[02:31] <LaserJock> *there
[02:31] <LaserJock> nixternal: see my pm?
[02:31] <nosrednaekim> who said they are going to be missing by that time.
[02:31] <nosrednaekim> ?
[02:31] <LaserJock> well, I don't believe you can get it ready that fast
[02:32] <nosrednaekim> a plasmoid is easy to write.
[02:32] <nosrednaekim> I think......
[02:32] <LaserJock> yeah, but get it properly tested, etc.?
[02:33] <mhb> nosrednaekim: I guess so, but they still need to create a functional kicker-replacement that can hold plasmoids
[02:34] <nosrednaekim> yeah.... thats a problem.
[02:34] <mhb> nosrednaekim: but I'm looking forward to plasmoids, we're going to be able to do a brand new desktop with them
[02:35] <nosrednaekim> its sorta like superkaramba, which I wrote a wattmeter plugin for... that was one of the easiest GUI's I have ever written.
[02:35] <mhb> nosrednaekim: yeah, it's superkaramba+kmenu applets merged together
[02:35] <LaserJock> anybody know if there is a bug about konsole not having a default shortcut for Copy?
[02:37] <ScottK> Dunno if there's a bug, but it's been that way since forever.
[02:38] <LaserJock> imbrandon and I had a fight about it once, it's been like my #1 KDE bug
[02:38] <nosrednaekim> LaserJock: use the kde4 version.
[02:40] <LaserJock> ScottK: oh man, you've gone to the dark side as well?
[02:40] <LaserJock> ;-)
[02:41] <LaserJock> or do you just hang out here to be with the "cool crowd"
[02:41] <DaSkreech> ScottK: You are apointyclicky lover??
[02:41] <ScottK> What do you mean?  I've never run Ubuntu.  I've only ever seen it at the library and one the laptop of one guy I work with.
[02:41] <LaserJock> ScottK: weird, I never knew ...
[02:42] <ScottK> Most of the stuff I work on packaging for is server stuff, so it wouldn't particulalry come up.
[02:42] <LaserJock> mhm, same here
[02:43] <LaserJock> I used to work mostly on Science apps
[02:43] <ScottK> My big Kubuntu accomplishement so far is to get GPG and S/MIME signing and decryption by default in Kmail/Kontact for Gutsy.
[02:43] <ScottK> Right.
[02:43] <LaserJock> now I work mostl on Edubuntu though
[02:44] <LaserJock> although, it's half Gnome half KDE ;-)
[02:44] <ScottK> Along those lines, keep an eye on Mok0.  He works at some kind of sciency company and his goal is to package all the apps they use for Ubuntu.
[02:44] <LaserJock> oh, nice
[02:44] <LaserJock> I've seen a bit from him
[02:44] <ScottK> They are also an all KDE shop, so he's doing some KDE stuff too.
[02:44] <ScottK> He's knew to Debian packaging, but very knowlegeable about building software in general.  I recent Red Hat convert.
[02:45] <LaserJock> I just get upset having to pick KDE or Gnome
[02:46] <DaSkreech> LaserJock: Why?
[02:46] <LaserJock> because I want to write it once
[02:46] <LaserJock> and work for everybody
[02:46] <LaserJock> it seems so wasteful
[02:46] <LaserJock> to have gtk vs qt
[02:46] <LaserJock> etc.
[02:47] <mhb> LaserJock: right.
[02:47] <ScottK> Sure, but the original rationale for gtk disappeared a long time ago, so don't look here...
[02:47] <LaserJock> but now people have "locked in"
[02:47] <LaserJock> the only thing that ties me to Gnome now is I'm working upstream on gchemutils
[02:47] <mhb> well, if I can judge by my unprofessional eyes, there is a bigger chance of rewriting the whole gtk bindings in Qt than vice versa
[02:48] <LaserJock> makes sense
[02:48] <DaSkreech> LaserJock: use xlib
[02:48] <mhb> it would still be an insane project
[02:48] <DaSkreech> doesn't seem to be a big issue
[02:48] <DaSkreech> ScottK: GIMP doesn't exist anymore?
[02:48] <mhb> DaSkreech: how much code did you write in xlib?
[02:49] <LaserJock> well, the point of depending on a DE is to get integration
[02:49] <DaSkreech> mhb: I'm just saying if he doesn't want to be tied into either he has a choice
[02:49] <ScottK> The true fact is that there are two, there will be two, and that's not going to change.
[02:50] <LaserJock> ScottK: I guess, just seems stupid to me
[02:50] <ScottK> Agreed, but today it is what it is.
[02:51] <LaserJock> I should just write CLI apps so I don't have to worry about it ;-)
[02:51] <DaSkreech> LaserJock: that's close to what I just said :)
[02:51] <mhb> LaserJock: it is stupid, but it is even more silly to expect the big GTK/GNOME devs to sit down and say "well, lets talk straight. Their libraries are better than ours. Let's migrate to them."
[02:51] <LaserJock> well, I would rather see a combination
[02:51] <LaserJock> as I think qt looks really bad
[02:52] <LaserJock> but it seems like it's better to code in
[02:52] <mhb> someone still has to solve the GPL/LGPL feud
[02:52] <nosrednaekim> qt looks bad? never heard THAT one b4.
[02:52] <LaserJock> well, I've never seen a qt app I'd say looked good
[02:52] <LaserJock> they often work fine, and are well done
[02:52] <ScottK> Now it's going to be that QT is GPL v2 only and so now that counts as still evil, so no meger.
[02:52] <LaserJock> but they just look bad
[02:53] <mhb> ScottK: yeah, that's the non-technical argument we can't do anything with.
[02:53] <mhb> ScottK: LGPL is more permissive than GPL, and people with influence are happy about it.
[02:54] <ScottK> Well it was a similar non-technical argument that caused Gnome to be created.
[02:54] <LaserJock> it just seems weird to me that we can't all get behind one system that works
[02:54] <nosrednaekim> thats the way Open source works:)
[02:54] <LaserJock> it seems like a huge amount of wasted effort
[02:54] <LaserJock> nosrednaekim: saddly yes, it seems
[02:55] <nosrednaekim> oh.. it is...
[02:55] <mhb> LaserJock: yeah, I find it ironic, too. We have one system (GNOME) that big distros seem to prefer, and is more usable (at the current state), but the other DE is really easier to code for.
[02:56] <DaSkreech> ScottK: Whats the reasoning behind GTK has no purpose?
[02:56] <ScottK> The only reason (originally) for Gnome was that qt wasn't GPL.
[02:57] <ScottK> So it's original purpose is (and has for a long time) been no longer valid.  Not that that stops this or any other project.
[02:57] <DaSkreech> ScottK: right but GTK existed before that argument
[02:57] <DaSkreech> or discussion even
[02:58] <ScottK> OK.  I guess I should say Gnome, not GTK then.
[02:58] <DaSkreech> thanks :)
[02:58] <mhb> KDE was founded first, though :o)
[02:58] <DaSkreech> wasn't CDE before KDE
[02:58] <mhb> if only GIMP used the KDE libraries :o)
[02:59] <DaSkreech> mhb: Wouldn't that be a coup :)
[02:59] <ScottK> Seriously though, the competiion between the two, I think, produces a better result than annointing one and "planning" it.
[02:59] <ScottK> If more bodies made better software, then Vista wouldn't suck.
[02:59] <LaserJock> yeah, but wouldn't people focusing on the same product help?
[02:59] <DaSkreech> ScottK: More bodies generally do make better software
[03:00] <DaSkreech> that's kinda the idea behind more eyes make bugs shallow
[03:00] <ScottK> But true competition does push innovation.
[03:00] <ScottK> KDE and Gnome push each other to be better.
[03:00] <DaSkreech> It's when no one has a plan for the small parts but has a plan for the large parts that things go nuts
[03:00] <DaSkreech> .o0(And E!)
[03:01] <DaSkreech>  where the heck is Hawkwind?
[03:02] <mhb> long gone, I guess
[03:02] <nosrednaekim> Bye all! have to go do banal things like...ummm dishes..
[03:11] <nixternal> DaSkreech: hawkwind has been gone for a while
[03:12] <nixternal> isn't he the one that ran those Mandriva repos?
[03:12] <DaSkreech> dunno
[03:12] <DaSkreech> He and I were talking about a ebuntu
[03:12] <DaSkreech> the guy who started it left without a word
[03:13] <DaSkreech> Though come to think of it so did Hawkwind
[03:14] <mhb> a crazy multimillionaire gets several high-profile developers together on an open-source OS ... only to satisfy his twisted mind by killing them
[03:14] <mhb> yeah, that would be a smash it
[03:14] <mhb> hit
[03:15] <DaSkreech> They can get out
[03:15] <DaSkreech> only by copperating
[03:15] <DaSkreech> and using the source!
[03:16] <mhb> DaSkreech: you mistake it with the next sequel to the Saw horror, where MS developers have to choose either death or releasing their code under GPL
[03:16] <mhb> and time is running out
[03:17] <DaSkreech> Or the crazy developer who argues with his wife in a high profile case and she turns up very very missing and he geets arrested for killing her
[03:18] <nixternal> mhb: that has got to be the best novel introduction I have ever seen :)
[03:18] <ScottK> No one would ever believe that could happen.
[03:19] <nixternal> DaSkreech: that was a little low there, poor Reiser :)
[03:19] <DaSkreech> I have no intention of utterly destroying Microsoft
[03:19] <DaSkreech>  that just happens to be a by product
[03:20] <mhb> hmm, a bit offtopic now, but I think we should reach out to the community more somehow
[03:20] <mhb> I'm hearing "Kubuntu is not as polished as Ubuntu" from many sides but I haven't seen many bugs about it
[03:21] <nixternal> ditto
[03:21] <nixternal> actually, I heard today that PCLinuxOS is more polished than Kubuntu
[03:22] <nixternal> I mean, everything does work out of the box, but you get all of the binary blobs, which I know people want
[03:22] <DaSkreech> mhb: maybe we should raise the ire of the kommunity ?
[03:23] <mhb> hmm, perhaps we could do a Kubuntu artwork contest
[03:23] <mhb> because the KDE4 contest seemed to bring many answers
[03:23] <mhb> at least kwwii said that, AFAIK
[03:23] <nixternal> it is funny though, I have been running Kubuntu on this laptop since Dapper and have dist-upgraded at the beginning of each dev cycle, and never once have I had to wipe it out and start over...to me, Kubuntu is polished perfectly for me...but there in itself lies a problem..Kubuntu isn't all about "ME"
[03:24] <nixternal> I think we have done artwork contests before and even setup the art.ubuntu.com site, which is rather dead
[03:24] <mhb> nixternal: did we?
[03:24] <nixternal> I think so..although I am not 100% positive
[03:24] <DaSkreech> !worksforme | nixternal
[03:24] <nixternal> ass
[03:24] <nixternal> wait a second, it didn't work :)
[03:24] <ubotu> nixternal: Common Sense: Just because you can, does not mean you should (and especially recommend to others). Think before you do. "Works for me" does not mean it is ok. The latest version of everything is not always useful if you aim for stability. Please see http://geekosophical.net/random/worksforme/
[03:24] <DaSkreech> damn bot!
[03:24] <nixternal> argh
[03:24] <DaSkreech> ok :)
[03:24] <nixternal> there it is
[03:25] <DaSkreech> what do they mean by polished?
[03:25] <DaSkreech> as in functionality or look?
[03:25] <nixternal> my lord, that "worksforme" link is the worst representation of that statement
[03:25] <nixternal> Speeding might get you somewhere faster, but it is dangerous to do so. Sometimes speeding is not really faster, as you still have to stop at lights and others going the speed limit actually catch up to you.
[03:26] <mhb> DaSkreech: I think 70% look, 30% functionality (and we lack some when you compare K with Ubuntu)
[03:26] <nixternal> that statement right there is one
[03:26] <nixternal> You may speed occasionally and not crash, however many, many people each year do crash while speeding.
[03:26] <DaSkreech> mhb: I know we are about a cycle behind them
[03:26] <nixternal> and that one...many people die each year idling in the car and driving slow
[03:26] <DaSkreech> mhb: ever tried looking at it the other way?
[03:26] <DaSkreech> they have a bullet point in Gutsy that they can print to PDF
[03:26] <DaSkreech> ??
[03:26] <mhb> DaSkreech: the other way? What do you mean?
[03:27] <DaSkreech> wha? You mean you couldn't do that before that's sad
[03:27] <nixternal> lets not forget about their X configuration gui now, which we have had for a long time in kcontrol
[03:27] <DaSkreech> mhb: people keep looking at the list of new thigns happening in ubuntu and asking where is that in Kubuntu
[03:27] <mhb> yeah.
[03:27] <DaSkreech> whereas if you make a list of things that Kubuntu can do that ubuntu can't we probably have a larger feature set
[03:27] <nixternal> without a doubt
[03:28] <mhb> I think we should hire a graphic artist to work full time on Kubuntu, then we'd look polished
[03:28] <nixternal> then again, gnome does attack their bugs quicker than kde does
[03:29] <DaSkreech> nixternal: bigger team
[03:30] <nixternal> I don't think so
[03:30] <mhb> nixternal: and we're kind of deadlocked with KDE4 underway
[03:30] <nixternal> Gnome is always looking for more devs
[03:30] <nixternal> mhb: that is true...however there are bugs on b.k.o that are 5+ years old
[03:30] <nixternal> one being the ability to click a link in Konsole
[03:30] <nixternal> bbiaf
[03:31] <DaSkreech> that's not fixed yet?
[03:31] <mhb> nixternal: we can a) develop (for) something we won't show in the next release b) develop (for) something that is here, but won't be for long
[03:31] <mhb> it is, in KDE4
[03:32] <DaSkreech> ah that's what I thought
[03:32] <DaSkreech> as an aside strigi still dies on ~/.mozilla-thunderbird on the Live dc
[03:32] <DaSkreech> Cd
[03:35] <DaSkreech> I think that we should probably be able to move faster though since we only really care about stuff at KDE level and above
[03:42] <DaSkreech> argh still can't connect
[03:43] <DaSkreech> SlimG: ping
[03:44] <DaSkreech> Jucato!!!
[03:45] <Jucato> hi DaSkreech
[03:51] <mhb> did you all knew about http://www.kubuntu-art.org/ ?
[03:51] <DaSkreech> yep
[03:51] <Jucato> yes
[03:51] <Jucato> nixternal showed that link a few months ago I think
[03:51] <mhb> I've never seen it until know
[03:51] <Jucato> er.. s/yes/I did/
[03:52] <mhb> now
[04:03] <daSkreech> Jucato: oh kwick kwestion
[04:03] <Jucato> make it kuick!
[04:04] <daSkreech> What do you think stands between koffice and a spot in the defaut office slot in Kubuntu
[04:04] <Jucato> working with MS formats imho
[04:05] <daSkreech> That includes ooxml ?
[04:05] <Jucato> no. just the old .doc stuff I think
[04:05] <Jucato> and afaik, based on the wiki page, when OO.o was chosen to be the default on Kubuntu, KOffice wasn't that good yet
[04:05] <Jucato> but we're planning a transition to KOffice 2.0.. so we're waiting on that
[04:06] <daSkreech> how much has that improved in 2.0?
[04:07] <daSkreech> I know that overall it's a new beast
[04:07] <Jucato> not sure about the MS format support. they're not that interested in that aspect from what I know
[04:08] <Jucato> anyway, brb
[04:08] <daSkreech> So we may still not ship
[04:36] <nixternal> oi oi
[04:37] <Jucato> hi nixternal!
[04:38] <nixternal> howdy Jucato
[04:38] <Jucato> nixternal: env/ and share/ appearing in $HOME.. . is that a known issue?
[04:38] <nixternal> I haven't seen that
[04:38] <Jucato> fresh new user... so I know I didn't fsck things up
[04:38] <nixternal> OK, I do see that
[04:39] <nixternal> odd, when did that start?
[04:39] <Jucato> um... since.. I sunday
[04:39] <Jucato> I think sunday
[04:50] <Jucato> mhb: btw, someone was ecstatic yesterday about the kmilo patch. your work right? :)
[04:51] <daSkreech> Jucato: that's not a misspelling
[04:51] <daSkreech> that's the KDE3 dolphin ?
[04:51] <mhb> Jucato: no, kde-look.org and ryanakca did it
[04:52] <mhb> Jucato: I was just supporting it very actively
[04:52] <Jucato> ah ok hehe :)
[04:52] <ScottK> mhb: From the Debian Python Modules Team svn today: * r3164 /packages/python-kde3/tags/3.16.0-1/: [svn-buildpackage]  Tagging python-kde3 (3.16.0-1)
[04:52] <ScottK> I wonder if that would help the Konsole pty problem...
[04:53] <mhb> ScottK: could you test it then? I'm not really available this week
[04:54] <ScottK> What was the bug number that had your test script in it?
[04:54] <ScottK> I've hard a hard drive failure since the last time I tried, so I don't have the script.
[04:56] <mhb> bug 117731
[04:56] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 117731 in python-kde3 "Python crashes after attaching pty to a konsole kpart" [High,Triaged]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/117731
[04:56] <ScottK> Thanks.
[04:56] <mhb> ScottK: also check out my latest additions
[04:56] <mhb> ScottK: the messages
[04:56] <ScottK> We've had a 3.16.0 for a long time, but maybe there's something to be gotten from a merge.
[04:56] <ScottK> OK
[04:56] <mhb> it may be a red herring, but who knows
[05:00] <daSkreech> Jucato: Gutsied ?
[05:01] <Jucato> yeah
[05:01] <daSkreech> Jucato: strigi works?
[05:02] <Jucato> depends on what you mean by work
[05:03] <daSkreech> Well I'm on tribe 5 now
[05:03] <daSkreech> and I can start strigi
[05:03] <daSkreech> but if I start it indexing it dies on ~/.mozilla-thunderbird
[05:03] <daSkreech> which doesn't exist btw
[05:03] <Jucato> yeah it dies here too
[05:04] <daSkreech> where?
[05:05] <Jucato> indexing. didn't check where. using strigi:/
[05:05] <Jucato> and you can't remove/add directories in its preferences using that
[05:05] <daSkreech> So how do i run it?
[05:06] <Jucato> dunno
[05:06] <Jucato> :)
[05:06] <Jucato> I've always had problems with desktop search thingies... so I'm not surprised they hate me so much
[05:06] <daSkreech> Jucato: ok when you said depends on waht I mean by work what would I mean that would lead to a yes?
[05:07] <Jucato> if it starts, if you can search "a bit" (depending on how much has been indexed), if it's actually there/installed, if you can add the applet :)
[05:07] <daSkreech> hmm
[05:07] <daSkreech> strigidaemon
[05:09] <ScottK> mhb: Looking at the diff, it doesn't look promising.
[05:22] <nixternal> hiya Hobbsee
[05:24] <daSkreech> Hobbsee!!
[05:24] <Jucato> lifesaver!!!!
[05:24] <Tm_T> hi kids
[05:25] <Hobbsee> hehe
[05:25] <daSkreech> Jucato: careful. She's a stickler
[05:25] <Jucato> hehehe
[05:28] <Jucato> do we now install unrar (but not rar) by default?
[05:28] <Jucato> er wait..
[05:28] <Hobbsee> it's in multiverse, so no
[05:28] <Hobbsee> if you have k-r-e, then yes
[05:28] <Jucato> lol yeah. sorry I have that heheh :)
[05:29] <Jucato> Hobbsee: are you having env/ and share/ show up in your $HOME too?
[05:29] <ryanakca> Jucato:  I have it too
[05:29] <Jucato> hi ryanakca :)
[05:29] <Hobbsee> Jucato: er, no.  but i havent upgraded to the latest version yet
[05:29] <Jucato> you made someone happy yesterday with the kmilo patch :)
[05:30] <ryanakca> Ah, hehe :)
[05:30] <Hobbsee> Jucato: there's a bug report for it, i was looking for it last night.  but i cant see where it actually is in the code, from looking at the diff
[05:30] <Jucato> oh
[05:30] <Hobbsee> it's in bzr, so shouldnt be hard to find, i just cant see it
[05:30] <Hobbsee> so if you do, yell, and i'll put your patch in
[05:30] <ryanakca> Hobbsee: where's it controled? k-d-s? kdebase?
[05:31] <Hobbsee> ryanakca: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/136560
[05:32] <ryanakca> thanks
[05:32] <ryanakca> hmm. lp is slow tonight...
[05:32] <nixternal> lp is down right now that's why
[05:32] <ryanakca> down for maintenaince
[05:32] <ryanakca> s/maintenaince/maintenance/g
[05:32] <Jucato> yay :)
[05:33] <ryanakca> anyways, night night :)
[05:34] <Jucato> bye! :)
[05:34] <Hobbsee> ryanakca: edge is there
[05:34] <Hobbsee> the bug says:
[05:34] <Hobbsee> With latest update to kdebase 4:3.5.7-1ubuntu17 (AMD64) the "env" and "share" folders of kde are placed directly below the home-folder with no hidden flag. Usually these folders were placed in the hidden ~/.kde folder. This prevents the user for accidentally changes.
[05:34] <Hobbsee> Deleting this folders results in recreating at next login so I assume that these one are used by kde instead of the (still being there) hidden folders below /home/.kde
[05:34] <Hobbsee> Please revert
[05:42] <manchicken> Oooh, Dolphin looks nice.
[05:42] <daSkreech> manchicken: once it starts having porpoise it tends to do that
[05:43] <daSkreech> Jucato: bah
[05:43] <Jucato> well it's just me anyway..
[05:43] <daSkreech> all choices between now and KDE4 are going to be stepping stones anyway
[05:44] <daSkreech> Guess we might aswell get used to it
[05:44] <Jucato> the problem is not using dolphin by default. my issue is using this version of dolphin..
[05:44] <Jucato> a stepping stone might become a stumbling block...
[05:45] <Jucato> but like I said, it's just me. so I better shut up :)
[05:45] <manchicken> I don't mind Dolphin if it's going to rock this hard.
[05:45] <manchicken> Because this is just nice.
[05:45] <Jucato> manchicken: which version are you using?
[05:45] <Jucato> KDE 3 or KDE 4?
[05:45] <nixternal> KDE 5
[05:45] <manchicken> 091, the one on KDE357
[05:45] <Jucato> nixternal: heh!
[05:46] <Jucato> KDE 3 version then.
[05:46] <Jucato> you should see the KDE 4 one. it might rock you even harder :P
[05:46] <nixternal> oh it will
[05:46] <daSkreech> It will
[05:46] <daSkreech> which is why this is stepping stone choice :)
[05:46] <Jucato> I'm just worried that D3lphin might give users the wrong impression about Dolphin on KDE 4...
[05:47] <Jucato> just so many things are missing...
[05:47] <manchicken> Dolphin needs to have an option to ignore backup files.
[05:47] <ScottK> Dolphin needs to understand sftp.
[05:47] <daSkreech> Jucato: yeah thcomes outey can complain then be twice as happy when Kde4
[05:48] <Jucato> I didn't understand that at all..
[05:48] <Jucato> ScottK: it doesn't?
[05:48] <manchicken> Is dolphin C++ or py?
[05:49] <Jucato> C++ afaik
[05:49] <manchicken> I'm really liking it.  I think I may want to hack on it a bit sometime soon.
[05:49] <ScottK> The problem isn't actually in Dolphin but one of the kdelib bits.  If you make an "SSH" shortcut, it uses Fish and not SFTP.
[05:49] <manchicken> I need to finish picking up Python first though.
[05:49] <daSkreech> Jucato: yeah they can complain then be twice as happy when Kde4 comes out
[05:49] <Jucato> daSkreech: not if they've been to annoyed with Kubuntu/KDE for this
[05:50] <daSkreech> They can still use konqueror
[05:50] <manchicken> Jucato: To be completely honest, I think Dolphin on Gutsy right now is a very nice filemanager.
[05:50] <manchicken> I think people may be a little unfamiliar with it at first, but I think it'll grow on them... and fast.
[05:50] <manchicken> I really like it.
[05:50] <Jucato> ScottK: shortcut at the sidebar?
[05:51] <ScottK> IIRC yes.
[05:51] <Jucato> works here
[05:51] <Jucato> sftp://
[05:51] <Jucato> hm..
[05:51] <nixternal> argh...wth, I have been on the kde-core-devel list for a year, and my posts are moderated...odd
[05:51] <ScottK> There's something there about making an "SSH" shortcut that ends up connecting with Fish.
[05:52] <ScottK> When I tried sftp:// it popped a Konqueror window IIRC.
[05:52] <Jucato> wow! I just realized you can't drag & drop to the sidebar...
[05:52] <ScottK> My gutsy install is currently crushed trying to build stuff, so I can't really try it.
[05:53] <Jucato> manchicken: I'm not saying dolphin isn't nice. but if you've tried to use dolphin on KDE 4, it's a big difference. the problem is that they stopped developing the KDE 3 version months ago. so all we have are patches from D3lphin.
[05:53] <Jucato> enough ranting from me... sorry
[05:58] <manchicken> Jucato: But if it's better than konq for file management (which I would say it's about the same, but with a couple added features), I see no reason not to get people used to using it.
[06:01] <nixternal> dolphin will attract newer users I think...those of us who love konqi, can continue to use it...that is what's nice
[06:01] <daSkreech> Wonder what would happen if there was a dedicated KDE Browser
[06:01] <nixternal> konqi!
[06:02] <manchicken> Just as long as konqi doesn't start using gecko.
[06:02] <ScottK> Ahhh.  My eyes!!!
[06:02] <manchicken> I wouldn't be too upset to see konqi import some webkits stuff :)
[06:02] <daSkreech> it will
[06:03] <nixternal> it is planning on it :)
[06:03] <nixternal> so is gnome
[06:04] <manchicken> I just don't want konqi to become firefox.
[06:04] <daSkreech> I wouldn't mind a Web browser with extensions
[06:05] <daSkreech>  Web dev firebug and greasemonkey are really useful
[06:05] <manchicken> I think a kpart to use FF extensions would be better than pulling in gecko.
[06:13] <LaserJock> hmm, what is the latest KDE4 version for Feisty?
[06:14] <daSkreech> I don't know if Beta2 will be available for feisty
[06:15] <manchicken> ScottK: What be ye referring to?
[06:15] <LaserJock> ah, so it's still beta1? would beta2 be relatively straightforward to get?
[06:17] <ScottK> manchicken: The Firefox trademark deal that essentially means that we have to mother may I to mozilla corp to patch FF or we can't call it FF.
[06:17] <daSkreech> ScottK: I don't think they are that bad about it
[06:17] <daSkreech> as long as we push upstream which is a ubuntu watchword in any case
[06:18] <ScottK> daSkreech: They may be more lenient in practice than the documentation, but that's what their agreement requires.
[06:18] <ScottK> That's not what their paperwork says though.  It says you must have permission.
[06:18] <daSkreech> ScottK: true. but I think that it's not too bad a deal
[06:19] <ScottK> You're welcome to your opinion I guess, but IMO it's fundamentally not compatible with the idea of FOSS.  I thought the way that Debian changed things to make it clear you had a Debianized FF was perfectly reasonable.
[06:21] <daSkreech> ScottK: people still think there is bad blood in the air cause of that?
[06:21] <ScottK> I'm not talking about "people", I'm talking about my personal opinion.
[06:22] <daSkreech> Ah alright
[06:22] <ScottK> If I were a Debian FF maintainer, I'd be pretty upset though.  Given DFSG they had no choice but to do what they did and it caused Debian a whole raft of work for no real reason.
[06:22] <daSkreech> well they are a brand as well as a product
[06:22] <ScottK> Yes and so is every piece of software out there.
[06:23] <nixternal> daSkreech: I am working on beta2 for feisty :)
[06:23] <daSkreech> Well on the other hand mozilla is now taking steps to make it easier for someone to branch off and expunge Firefox and mozilla for mteh source so that they can do thier own thing
[06:23] <nixternal> just need to know if I am supposed to upload them to our PPA, and if so, what should I rename them too
[06:23] <daSkreech> nixternal: nice
[06:23] <LaserJock> nixternal: you got them done though?
[06:23] <nixternal> I have them downloaded, I just need to build them
[06:23] <nixternal> can't hand them out just yet, beta 2 hasn't been announced :)
[06:23] <manchicken> Yeah, Mozilla seems to be getting a bit too big for their britches in some of this stuff.
[06:24] <ScottK> I guess I get a little burned that Mozilla corp acted like Debian was being unreasonable when DFSG gave them no real choice.
[06:24] <LaserJock> nixternal: oh really? I thought it had
[06:24] <daSkreech> well at least have them in higher regard than Oo.o
[06:24] <manchicken> I really hope that the kmail problems get fixed here soon...
[06:24] <manchicken> And fast.
[06:24] <nixternal> LaserJock: it was supposed to be the 29th of August I thought, but I haven't seen anything yet
[06:25] <LaserJock> hmm, I do like konversation
[06:25] <nixternal> it is a slick app
[06:26] <nixternal> my favorite KDE apps are w/o a doubt, konqueror, amarok, kate, and  yakuake
[06:26] <nixternal> I am like that one GSoC applicant for KDE...I also love KDevelop because I don't understand it :)
[06:27] <ScottK> Launchpad seems to be back up if anyone cares.
[06:27] <nixternal> ScottK: wth, you are following LP that close? come on man, you are better than that :)
[06:27] <LaserJock> I don't like amarok at all
[06:27] <nixternal> wow
[06:27] <LaserJock> I can kinda do ok with konqi
[06:27] <nixternal> you are the only one in the world I think
[06:28] <LaserJock> no, I've found some others
[06:28] <LaserJock> amarok is just too much
[06:28] <nixternal> please don't say Banshee or Rythmbox is better
[06:28] <LaserJock> I like rythmbox
[06:28] <nixternal> actually, ya Rythmbox isn't all that bad
[06:28] <LaserJock> haven't done much with banshee
[06:28] <ScottK> nixternal: I was trying to do something and the fact that it was down was blocking me.  I don't normally follow it closely at all (except to complain of course).
[06:28] <nixternal> haha
[06:28] <LaserJock> I just don't do a lot other than listen to some mp3s
[06:29] <nixternal> ya, it always goes down when I am trying to commit something to the wiki
[06:29] <nixternal> I swear someone is watching me
[06:29] <LaserJock> I don't need 90% of what amarok offers
[06:29] <LaserJock> Hobbsee!!
[06:30] <nixternal> heh, I almost said 'tilda is the most horrible thing I have ever used' in the Chicago GLUG channel...I forgot the author is in there :)
[06:30] <Hobbsee> :)
[06:30] <LaserJock> nixternal: that's why you gotta be nice all the time
[06:30] <nixternal> he gets upset when I talk about yakuake and how it is better than anything out there
[06:30] <LaserJock> you never know
[06:30] <nixternal> LaserJock: he is a friend of mine anyways
[06:31] <nixternal> we were talking earlier about what you and I discussed last night about 1 of this..and he is on your side of the isle on it
[06:31] <nixternal> haha, and I was like, then why did you create tilda
[06:32] <LaserJock> well, I realize that competition is important
[06:32] <LaserJock> but I think it's maybe quite a bit less important as projects mature
[06:33] <LaserJock> because then you have internal competition and the "good ideas" should be worked out for the most part
[06:33] <nixternal> true
[06:33] <manchicken> Is there a bug for the kontact/kmail crashes?
[06:33] <daSkreech> LaserJock: I think OSS is good for the fights
[06:34] <daSkreech> cause the makeups are always on a higher level
[06:34] <nixternal> heh, I asked about Ubuntu HQ, and nobody wants to fess up
[06:34] <daSkreech> unlike propietary stuff
[06:34] <ScottK> What's Ubuntu HQ?
[06:34] <nixternal> the new community driven Ubuntu news website
[06:34] <nixternal> talk about reinventing the wheel :)
[06:34] <daSkreech> Which is another reason why OSS will win :)
[06:34] <LaserJock> nixternal: nobody wants to fess up to running it?
[06:35] <nixternal> that and nobody wants to fess up to putting in the UWN, where it doesn't belong
[06:35] <daSkreech> !games
[06:35] <ubotu> Information about games on Ubuntu can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Games and http://www.icculus.org/lgfaq/gamelist.php
[06:35] <LaserJock> daSkreech: it seems like it wil only win if we stop fighting long enough to get something done;-)
[06:35] <daSkreech> How does the ubuntu games team get away with that?
[06:35] <daSkreech> LaserJock: no we do. a lot
[06:36] <daSkreech> everytime we make up it's on a higher level
[06:36] <manchicken> nixternal: Tilda is pretty sweet when you consider an academia and non-gui hacker did it.
[06:36] <daSkreech> which makes the world much better
[06:36] <LaserJock> daSkreech: you sure?
[06:36] <nixternal> manchicken: I know, I just give kungfooguru hell about it
[06:36] <nixternal> cuz it is fun
[06:36] <daSkreech> LaserJock: Yeah :)
[06:36] <manchicken> nixternal: 'tis fun to bug Tristan :)
[06:36] <daSkreech> pretty much :)
[06:36] <LaserJock> I've seen several fights in FLOSS that didn't end well at all, and only cause dilution/duplication/wasted work
[06:36] <nixternal> Tristan is freakin' hillarious man...he had me wet myself at BarCamp
[06:37] <nixternal> great brewer too
[06:37] <daSkreech> http://blog.hartwork.org/?p=74
[06:37] <daSkreech> LaserJock: Yeah I know but when they do make up it puts the platform one ste higher
[06:38] <LaserJock> but again, that does assume that they do make up :-)
[06:38] <LaserJock> in my own field I really see it
[06:38] <LaserJock> there are like at least 5 2D molecular editors
[06:39] <LaserJock> and none of them are as good as the proprietary ones
[06:39] <nixternal> ya, sometimes it is insane
[06:39] <nixternal> same goes with CAD apps
[06:39] <LaserJock> but if we all combine forces I would think we'd mabe get there
[06:39] <nixternal> there are quite a few, and all of them suck, and come nowhere close to competing with autoCAD
[06:39] <LaserJock> but instead we are all reimplenting the wheel in a slighty different way
[06:39] <LaserJock> we have gnome vs kde
[06:40] <LaserJock> now we are getting C++ vs ruby vs Java
[06:40] <daSkreech> LaserJock: do You have a standard file type in between them?
[06:40] <LaserJock> not so much
[06:40] <daSkreech> LaserJock: those are trivial fights
[06:40] <LaserJock> there are around 50 standard file types for chemistry ;-)
[06:40] <nixternal> I think we need both when it comes to the DEs truthfully..granted they both skin the same cat, but they fulfill the tastes of their users
[06:40] <daSkreech> LaserJock: Solve that first and you will see my point
[06:40] <nixternal> oh, the program language wars have gone on since the 70s
[06:41] <LaserJock> daSkreech: well sure, but I'm not seeing them solved
[06:41] <nixternal> there is a publication with Dennis Ritchie where he goes on about it
[06:42] <LaserJock> the best thing I can say is that for my particular situation the gnome and kde guys get along
[06:42] <LaserJock> so that's good
[06:42] <LaserJock> and we've formed a central data repository
[06:42] <nixternal> ya, and there has been quite a bit of collaboration with the freedesktop.org stuff, even though I don't particularly care for most of it
[06:43] <LaserJock> and both the gnome and kde apps are in C++ which maybe helps
[06:43] <nixternal> ie. the whole documentation thing and wanting to create yet another language just for it
[06:43] <LaserJock> so then it comes down to mostly gtk vs qt
[06:43] <nixternal> MFC FTW! :)
[06:43] <nixternal> hahaha
[06:45] <daSkreech> Language arguments are below the source so they don't count :)
[06:45] <LaserJock> well, the only language I have a problem with so far is Java
[06:45] <LaserJock> like around 1/2 of the chemistry apps I see are Java
[06:46] <LaserJock> so I can't put them on an *buntu CD
[06:46] <LaserJock> I don't like that
[06:46] <daSkreech> but LaserJock if you can find one person from each of the projects that thinks that they way they are doing it is right but there are one or two thigns that are valuable from another project and get them all talking you will start to see the dim light
[06:46] <daSkreech> LaserJock: hopefully java going GPL should end that
[06:47] <LaserJock> yes, we (gchemutils) have a good releationship with kalzium (our KDE counterpart)
[06:47] <LaserJock> but we can only go until we hit gtk vs. qt or gnome vs kde
[06:47] <LaserJock> which seems kinda disappointing to me
[06:48] <nixternal> wow, I never realized all of the apps out there that use Qt
[06:48] <ScottK> Can you get to common file formats?  That in itself is pretty huge.
[06:48] <daSkreech> LaserJock: Common file formats that can capture the information will be a boon
[06:48] <nixternal> Photoshop, Motorola apps, Google Earth, Doxygen (I would have never guessed), Nero
[06:48] <daSkreech> even if it's a XML export
[06:49] <LaserJock> ScottK: we have lots of common stuff. Common format, common data repos, etc.
[06:49] <ScottK> That's pretty good then.
[06:49] <daSkreech> LaserJock: once that starts working you will find something else to fight about until that gets resolved
[06:49] <LaserJock> it is
[06:49] <LaserJock> but it suprising to see how walled off the two communities are
[06:49] <daSkreech> interface stuff will never be resolved but honestly it doesn't need to be
[06:49] <nixternal> wow, NASA uses Qt for their space flight simulator modules..now that is pretty cool
[06:50] <LaserJock> but why should a user have to choose UI?
[06:50] <LaserJock> it's not that the have a choice, it's that they *have* to choose
[06:51] <daSkreech> LaserJock: users always have to choose a UI once it doesn't involve danger to themselves
[06:51] <daSkreech> or others
[06:51] <daSkreech> You know how many times I take up a new cell phone and have to figure it out
[06:51] <ScottK> You should see what my teenagers do to KDE.  It's almost as bad as Hobbsee's myspace page.
[06:51] <LaserJock> but see I just can't think that that is right
[06:51] <daSkreech> cause the person chose that UI
[06:52] <LaserJock> to make somebody have to choose the UI right out of the gate
[06:52] <ScottK> LaserJock: But what's the alternative?
[06:52] <nixternal> why do people have to choose the clothes they wear?
[06:52] <nixternal> :)
[06:52] <daSkreech> LaserJock: what does it matter if they can switch at any time?
[06:52] <LaserJock> a single main DE, a single main UI
[06:52] <LaserJock> daSkreech: yes
[06:52] <LaserJock> most people just use what they are given
[06:52] <LaserJock> Windows, OS X, etc.
[06:53] <daSkreech> LaserJock: the UI affects how you work
[06:53] <LaserJock> once they hit Linux there is a huge amount of decision making that has to take place
[06:53] <LaserJock> and most people don't want to have to do that
[06:53] <nixternal> and most people tend to complain about what they are given as well
[06:53] <LaserJock> daSkreech: yes, hence why we should give them the best UI
[06:53] <daSkreech> If a change of UI can make you (that's the personal you not the group you) more effective why shoudn't they have the choice?
[06:53] <LaserJock> nixternal: not really too much
[06:54] <daSkreech> LaserJock: there is no best UI :)
[06:54] <LaserJock> how many people complain about the Windows UI?
[06:54] <ScottK> LaserJock: Most people don't actually decide that though.  I started with KDE because the people I knew that used Linux all used it (vim for the same reason).
[06:54] <LaserJock> ScottK: exactly
[06:54] <nixternal> LaserJock: the Vista UI is receiving an insane amount of complaints because of the drastic change from XP
[06:54] <LaserJock> ScottK: you don't count ;-)
[06:54] <ScottK> House full of teenage daughters I get that a lot.
[06:55] <nixternal> hahaha
[06:55] <LaserJock> you get more complaints about security than you do UI I think
[06:55] <ScottK> Yes, but that could still be a lot.
[06:55] <LaserJock> the general user doesn't complain much about the UI
[06:55] <nixternal> well your security complaints aren't coming from the majority of their users though
[06:55] <LaserJock> anyway, that's sort of beside the point
[06:55] <nixternal> my mom could care less about security, but the vista change has driven her up a wall trying to figure out junk now
[06:56] <LaserJock> my main point is going from basically any other OS to Linux you are suddendly give a huge amount of choices
[06:56] <ScottK> Word 2007 has annoying UI changes too.
[06:56] <nixternal> but I will admit, mom prefers gnome over kde
[06:56] <LaserJock> now we see that as an advantage
[06:56] <ScottK> LaserJock: That's a dood thing.
[06:56] <nixternal> omg, Office 2007 is the worst thing I have ever seen
[06:56] <ScottK> dood/good
[06:56] <nixternal> heh
[06:56] <LaserJock> but to a great many users the sheer number of choices puts them off
[06:56] <LaserJock> "how do I know which one to use" is a huge thing
[06:57] <ScottK> LaserJock: That's life.
[06:57] <LaserJock> it makes them feel like they have to be a geek to know the difference
[06:57] <ScottK> Carpe diem.
[06:57] <nixternal> yes, switching to linux provides you with a huge amount of choices, whereas Windows provides you with 2, to pirate, or not to pirate, that is the question :)
[06:57] <daSkreech> LaserJock: no actually most above par Windows users I know compalin about the UI
[06:58] <LaserJock> I wouldn't imagine much more than the average Gnome or KDE user
[06:58] <ScottK> I do less UI customization of a new Kubuntu install than I used to do on Windows.
[06:59] <LaserJock> I would think, but don't know, that that would be a rarity
[06:59] <LaserJock> most people I've seen have the same wallpaper, same theme, etc.
[07:00] <LaserJock> I just don't think choice is always a good thing
[07:00] <LaserJock> it's good at some level
[07:00] <ScottK> Choice can be confusing, but the price to avoid that confusion is generally to high in my opinion.
[07:00] <LaserJock> but heck, that's why Ubuntu exists to a large extent, giving users sane defaults
[07:00] <daSkreech> LaserJock: tell new users the same thing I tell them. Find the one with people that will help you
[07:01] <LaserJock> I think it was a real shame that we ended up with a derivitzation in Ubuntu based on DE
[07:01] <daSkreech> LaserJock: I don't
[07:01] <daSkreech> I know personally people who wouldn't have switched away fro mwindows if it wasn't for kubuntu
[07:01] <nixternal> me either, otherwise I wouldn't be here right now..I would be over on the slackware channels still :)
[07:02] <LaserJock> well, I didn't say it should've been Gnome as the default ;-)
[07:02] <ScottK> I wouldn't be here either.  Even though most of my contribution is in the server area, KDE was a requirement for me.
[07:02] <nixternal> or I could be over at Mepis..but I got out of there in a hurry a couple of years back
[07:02] <daSkreech> ScottK: We are talking about windows switchers here :)
[07:02] <nixternal> then I tried Kubuntu and thought it sucked :)
[07:03] <nixternal> I am one of the odd ones anyways, I preferred Gnome when Ximian came about
[07:03] <ScottK> Most of the people I know of who switched switched with Xandros first.
[07:04] <ScottK> Then they got tired of training wheels and moved on.
[07:04] <nixternal> Debian or Slackware for me prior to Kubuntu
[07:04] <ScottK> Xandros --> Opensuse (KDE) --> Kubuntu for me.
[07:04] <LaserJock> I was Gentoo/KDE before Ubuntu
[07:05] <nixternal> well, I was a huge SuSE fan when they were German ran back in the day
[07:05] <ScottK> For servers it was Debian and then Ubuntu
[07:05] <nixternal> man, I thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread
[07:05] <ScottK> opensuse 10.1 did me in.
[07:05] <Jucato> before they became Ximian-run?
[07:05] <nixternal> Gnome and that whole Ximain thing...with Evolution and all
[07:05] <nixternal> I used to love Evolution
[07:05] <ScottK> Never again will I use a distro that the organization putting it together does not view as their actual product.
[07:06] <nixternal> and they had that monkey logo and the ugly theme colors
[07:06] <ScottK> Gah.  I hated it on contact.
[07:06] <Jucato> whew.. gone for only an hour and look at how much you talked about :P
[07:06] <LaserJock> I could totally go for opensuse I think, except the package management is so bad I found it almost unusable
[07:06] <nixternal> heh, the first time I seen someone running Ubuntu, I was like dude, is that Ximian :)
[07:07] <nixternal> it was just so foogly
[07:07] <Jucato> hehe
[07:07] <LaserJock> Jucato: sorry, I've been stirring the pot a bit
[07:07] <nixternal> ya, opensuse package management killed me
[07:07] <Jucato> LaserJock: me too
[07:07] <Jucato> I mean about the opensuse thingy
[07:07] <nixternal> opensuse is a damn good disto otherwise though
[07:07] <Jucato> maybe 10.3 will really fix things?
[07:07] <Jucato> if not, I'm seeing it going down the drain eventually...
[07:08] <nixternal> PCLinuxOS wouldn't be so bad if it didnt' look like XP and have all of that binary junk..but obviously people really do want it
[07:08] <Jucato> hehe it stopped looking like XP. they changed the logo now :)
[07:08] <LaserJock> yeah, there is a guy in my LUG that hates Ubuntu
[07:08] <nixternal> I really like the PCLinuxOS configuration system though
[07:08] <LaserJock> but swears by PCLinuxOS
[07:08] <Jucato> heh
[07:08] <nixternal> LaserJock: he is a newb, that's why :)
[07:08] <LaserJock> no, he isn't
[07:08] <nixternal> PCLinuxOS is the newb OS
[07:09] <nixternal> he likes all of that junk installed from the get go
[07:09] <LaserJock> well, kinda exactly
[07:09] <Jucato> drakconf... quite nice if it weren't GTK :P
[07:09] <LaserJock> he says that Ubuntu is not good enough for new users
[07:09] <nixternal> it will be interesting...quite a few of the main PCLinuxOS devs left to work for rPath and Foresight for the upcoming KDE release
[07:09] <LaserJock> so he has to give them PCLinuxOS
[07:09] <LaserJock> unforutunately the last LUG meeting was Ubuntu 0 PCLinuxOS 1
[07:09] <nixternal> PCLinuxOS I will agree is probably the best Linux OS for new users
[07:10] <LaserJock> a guy brought in a laptop with Ubuntu on it
[07:10] <LaserJock> but he couldn't get his Atheros wifi to work
[07:10] <Jucato> PCLOS and MEPIS imho... although MEPIS really needs to start thinking straight...
[07:11] <LaserJock> this guy just happened to have his PCLinuxOS cd handy
[07:11] <nixternal> does Mepis have any real devs?
[07:11] <LaserJock> and popped it in and it worked no problem
[07:11] <nixternal> LaserJock: ya, everything almost works out of the box with PCLinuxOS
[07:11] <nixternal> I know in order for Linux to be mainstream, it has to be that way
[07:11] <Jucato> mepis? aside from woodworth? probably just a few. hehe...
[07:12] <Jucato> ooh I see the spirit of ESR in yah!
[07:12] <nixternal> but I am not a fan of the binary components...by bowing down and using them, there is no force on the manufacturers to see Linux as a viable solution, so they don't release open firmware
[07:12] <nixternal> Jucato: don't ever see ESR anywhere around me :)
[07:13] <Jucato> well, if he's inside you, you won't be able to see him around you :P
[07:13] <LaserJock> he seemed like a decent fellow when I talked with him
[07:13] <nixternal> I am helping teach the "Intro to Linux" class at the uni, and on the first night, we show RevolutionOS, and everyone has the same response..."that first guy is an idiot"
[07:13] <ScottK> The real way around the issue is companies like Dell.
[07:13] <Jucato> lol
[07:13] <nixternal> and out of a class of about 30, I would say at most, 1 or 2 people actually know a little of the Linux and FOSS history
[07:14] <ScottK> They are the ones that will solve the driver problem.
[07:14] <LaserJock> yep
[07:14] <nixternal> hopefully
[07:14] <LaserJock> I know Intel is doing quite a bit
[07:14] <nixternal> ya, and AMD is going the other direction
[07:14] <Jucato> yeah Intel...
[07:14] <ScottK> It's not random that the motherboards on all the PCs I build are Intel.
[07:14] <Jucato> wish they had AGP stuff  :)
[07:14] <LaserJock> we are getting some open drivers thanks to Intel
[07:14] <ScottK> They are reliable and support Linux very well.
[07:14] <nixternal> yup
[07:14] <nixternal> that is why I have gone with Intel
[07:15] <LaserJock> well, not just graphics cards too
[07:15] <nixternal> I would rather pay the extra money for free drivers
[07:15] <Jucato> (and to think I've been an AMD fan for years because of the price)
[07:15] <nixternal> well AMD typically wins the cpu wars, but I don't care about that anymore
[07:16] <nixternal> add "as well" to the end of cpu wars
[07:16] <nixternal> I originally read your statement wrong Jucato
[07:16] <Jucato> heheh :P
[07:16] <LaserJock> but I wonder if Intel will become to dominante, you know
[07:16] <nixternal> I think they will
[07:16] <LaserJock> it seems like everybody's jumping on the Intel bandwagon
[07:17] <Jucato> hm... hope they don't create a monopoly though...
[07:17] <nixternal> see, the cpu market was another market where people said in the beginning that having another processor was unnecessary
[07:17] <LaserJock> but once they dominate will open-source become less important?
[07:17] <nixternal> and see how the competiton really kicked arse there
[07:17] <LaserJock> Jucato: they very much are, in a lot of areas
[07:17] <nixternal> I don't think so with Intel
[07:17] <LaserJock> I hope not
[07:17] <nixternal> LaserJock: well in the Windows world, where it is heavily gamers yet, AMD is the clear winner still
[07:17] <ScottK> I buy Intel because it just works.
[07:18] <nixternal> I buy whatever is cheapest and will work out of the box with the Linus Torvalds special :)
[07:18] <LaserJock> nixternal: Intel is clearly the chip of choice
[07:18] <nixternal> here it is...but AMD still has the market share for custom built PCs
[07:18] <manchicken> I buy intel because they don't own ATI, the enemy of freedom.
[07:18] <manchicken> :)
[07:18] <nixternal> amen!
[07:19] <LaserJock> I don't buy :(
[07:19] <nixternal> hehe
[07:19] <Jucato> I bought an AMD because at that time I had no idea about FOSS...
[07:19] <nixternal> he steals!
[07:19] <Jucato> (3 years ago)
[07:19] <nixternal> I bought AMD because it was cheap and crazy fast
[07:19] <Jucato> that too :)
[07:19] <nixternal> you want to read what is hot chip wise, always read HardOCP and Anandtech
[07:19] <Jucato> and I was kinda sick of the Pentium hype here that time...
[07:20] <manchicken> Riddell: Just to let you know, I'm making myself a bit more useful and picking up Python.
[07:21] <LaserJock> well, a whole evening in KDE and I didn't even have a freeze \o/
[07:21] <manchicken> Jucato: There'll be plenty of time for sleep when you're dead!
[07:21] <manchicken> heh
[07:21] <Jucato> consider me dead for now...
[07:21] <ScottK> Speaking of Python, python-kde3 takes a LONG time to build ...
[07:21] <nixternal> heh, I have had years in KDE, and just until recently I haven't seen a freeze :)
[07:21] <manchicken> Nice.
[07:21] <manchicken> I'm sorry to hear that.
[07:21] <LaserJock> I had constant freezing with Feisty development
[07:21] <Jucato> yeah.. me too... dunno what came over me since this morning..
[07:21] <ScottK> Jucato: Get some rest and feel better.
[07:21] <LaserJock> KDE was randomly hibernating
[07:21] <manchicken> I'm writing a little back-scratcher app in PyQt4 for managing my networking stuff.
[07:22] <nixternal> only thing in feisty was the new x release where I had nothing :)
[07:22] <LaserJock> and then it'd freeze up hard
[07:22] <Jucato> nixternal: when I first tried Breezy January 2006, I have grown to accept Konqueror crashing as the rule, not the exception :)
[07:22] <ScottK> nixternal: How's pinentry-qt4?
[07:22] <manchicken> Since my work VPN is flaky, I find myself needing to manage custom routing and resolv.conf entries regularly.
[07:22] <manchicken> I'm making a little GUI to make life simpler.
[07:22] <Jucato> ScottK: thanks. I'll probably be back when most of you are already asleep :P
[07:22] <ScottK> I find KDE (Kmail imap excepted) to be very reliable.
[07:23] <Jucato> nixternal: ^^^^ :)
[07:23] <Jucato> just not on gutsy (yet)
[07:23] <manchicken> ScottK: kmail is not doing so well right now under gutsy
[07:23] <nixternal> ScottK: what is pinentry? :p
[07:24] <ScottK> Yeah.  I haven't tried it later.
[07:24] <nixternal> kmail is horrid under gutsy
[07:24] <Jucato> that'd be an understatement :)
[07:24] <nixternal> it has almost driven me to thunderbird :p
[07:24] <LaserJock> man, I sure wish the KDE menus were better and editing them was better
[07:24] <LaserJock> maybe I'll have to look into that
[07:24] <nixternal> LaserJock: kmenuedit
[07:24] <nixternal> alt+f2 -> kmenuedit
[07:24] <LaserJock> kmenuedit is really nasty, IMO
[07:24] <nixternal> really?
[07:24] <LaserJock> yep
[07:24] <LaserJock> it's not on/off
[07:25] <nixternal> haha
[07:25] <LaserJock> you either delete entries or add them
[07:25] <Jucato> for one, you can't hide entries
[07:25] <nixternal> ahh, that is true
[07:25] <Jucato> er yeah
[07:25] <Jucato> that one :P
[07:25] <nixternal> LaserJock: damn, that would be a great wishlist item if it already isn't
[07:25] <manchicken> Man, this water tastes great after it comes through the brita filter.
[07:25] <Jucato> although technically you can hide them I think. just prepend a dot in front of the name...
[07:25] <nixternal> heh, the last time I brewed beer, I used a brita filter to remove the floaties :)
[07:26] <nixternal> LaserJock: see, I told you Jucato knows everything about tweaking KDE didn't I?
[07:26] <manchicken> Well my water softener leaves a nasty sodium taste in the water.
[07:26] <manchicken> This Brita filter gets rid of that.
[07:26] <Jucato> nixternal: I'm not exactly 100% sure about it...
[07:26] <nixternal> Jucato: I am...you know more tweaks than I do for sure
[07:26] <Jucato> lol I meant the hiding of menu items hahah
[07:26] <LaserJock> nixternal: you shouldn't *need* tweaks ;-)
[07:27] <nixternal> oh ya you should
[07:28] <nixternal> everyone wants to be different
[07:28] <LaserJock> no, by and large, they don't
[07:28] <LaserJock> they want to be sheep, herded along the path to better computing ;-)
[07:29] <nixternal> hahahahaha, whatevah!
[07:29] <nixternal> even windows users want to tweak, and I don't mean crystal meth
[07:29] <nixternal> although, I would have to be high in order to use Windows :p
[07:29] <LaserJock> well, you should be able to if you *want* to
[07:29] <nixternal> don't even think about it Jucato or daSkreech
[07:29] <Jucato> nixternal: http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=7478.0
[07:29] <LaserJock> but you shouldn't *have* to
[07:30] <Jucato> :P
[07:30] <nixternal> Jucato: you goofball...you wrote a damn howto on it...I knew you were genious!
[07:30] <Jucato> lol
[07:30] <Jucato> it's not perfect. see the note at the bottom :P
[07:30] <Jucato> and I'm not 100% sure of it's reliability/stability
[07:31] <LaserJock> oh geeze, I forgot there was a Kubuntu forum
[07:31] <LaserJock> :(
[07:31] <Jucato> hah! imagine I wrote that more than a year ago heheh :)
[07:32] <LaserJock> hmm, no reason that behavior shouldn't be upstream
[07:32] <LaserJock> all you need is a checkbox
[07:32] <Jucato> right
[07:33] <Jucato> just need to figure out how to make it work properly... perhaps a .desktop entry like "Hidden=True" would be better than a hack...
[07:33] <LaserJock> nixternal: you ever drum up support for Edubuntu in here
[07:33] <LaserJock> Jucato: that is what gnome does
[07:33] <nixternal> LaserJock: nope
[07:33] <LaserJock> nixternal: Hardy needs a good edubuntu-kde :-)
[07:34] <Jucato> LaserJock: I wanted to work on that, among other things relating to the K Menu (including the big icon). but practically gave up because of a lack of time to look into the fd.o spec
[07:34] <nixternal> argh, and I think I have that as a task...I need to work with ogra and Riddell on that
[07:34] <Jucato> didn't want to do anything "non-standard"...
[07:35] <nixternal> see, if windows users didn't want to tweak, then you would have this -> http://www.stardock.com/about/
[07:35] <LaserJock> Jucato: I don't think alacarte (the gnome editor) is specific to Gnome on the backend
[07:35] <nixternal> I never knew stardock became that big
[07:35] <Jucato> LaserJock: I'll take a peek when I wake up
[07:35] <LaserJock> uh oh
[07:35] <LaserJock> go to bed Jucato
[07:36] <Jucato> heh yeah. I just got all worked up with the menu discussion.
[07:36] <Jucato> I blame nixternal :)
[07:36] <nixternal> like always
[07:36] <Jucato> hahah
[07:36] <Jucato> I blame you for good things as well, though
[07:36] <nixternal> hahaha
[07:36] <Jucato> like the kubuntu docs, release notes, etc :)
[07:37] <Jucato> so don't think I'm being unfair hehehe
[07:37] <nixternal> is there a such thing as a "good thing" when using my name in a sentence?
[07:37] <Jucato> yes. "I blame nixternal" is a good thing :)
[07:37] <nixternal> a little insite, Kubuntu docs weren't created by me :)
[07:37] <nixternal> hardy har har
[07:37] <nixternal> hardy heron har har
[07:37] <Jucato> lol
[07:37] <Jucato> right, I was referring to the new system
[07:37] <kwwii> nixternal: yes, "it is a good thing that nixternal did not hear that"
[07:37] <kwwii> :p
[07:38] <Jucato> we have LaserJock et al for the rest :)
[07:38] <LaserJock> heh
[07:38] <nixternal> oh lord, now we have ol' man Ken talking trash :)
[07:38] <kwwii> hi Jucato
[07:38] <LaserJock> nixternal: you callin' him old?
[07:38] <kwwii> if I have to get up early in the morning I get to have some fun ;-)
[07:38] <nixternal> kwwii: you missed it man..I made it out to Blarneys last week...they had all kind of crazy things
[07:39] <nixternal> and people bet me I would walk back to my car from there
[07:39] <nixternal> s/would/wouldn't
[07:39] <kwwii> lol
[07:39] <nixternal> grass lake is a tad bit deeper than it used to be
[07:39] <kwwii> crazy things = drunken girls
[07:39] <nixternal> you think?
[07:39] <nixternal> man, that place is totally hopping these days
[07:40] <nixternal> heh, and if you want to have fun, you can always grab a bag of chips and feed the carp while you drink away the day
[07:40] <nixternal> lol
[07:40] <Jucato> LaserJock: eureka!! so Hidden=True | False in the .desktop file does work! lol I'll take a look at it later. thanks for pointing out that oh so obvious fact
[07:41] <LaserJock> you had to blog it didn't you!
[07:41] <nixternal> hahahaha yes
[07:41] <ScottK> kwwii is a youngster anyway...
[07:41] <nixternal> ScottK: ok ol' man ::)
[07:41] <nixternal> hrmm, 4 eyes!
[07:41] <kwwii> ScottK: lol, I wish
[07:41] <ScottK> kwwii: Compared to me, you are.
[07:41] <nixternal> LaserJock: I just wanted to see what everyone else had to say about it
[07:42] <LaserJock> man, I feel young
[07:42] <nixternal> While I agree that there are more distros than one could shake a stick at, that is not necessarily a bad thing.
[07:42] <ScottK> You are young.
[07:42] <nixternal> hahaha, Joe Terranova is crazy
[07:42] <kwwii> ScottK: let's see if I can count that high...how old are you?
[07:42] <LaserJock> hanging out with all you old geezers is great
[07:42] <ScottK> kwwii: 44 last I checked.
[07:42] <Jucato> LaserJock: yeah makes us feel so young
[07:43] <Jucato> and me younger :)
[07:43] <Jucato> ok really heading for bed...
[07:43] <LaserJock> I feel old when I go to school
[07:43] <kwwii> yepp, you are old dude
[07:43] <ScottK> Thanks.
[07:43] <Jucato> lol
[07:43] <kwwii> 7 years older than me
[07:43] <nixternal> BUT if one distribution would lead to the end of microsoft and many wouldnt, I would chose to have one, I only hope that it would be a nice on then
[07:43] <nixternal> nice statement!
[07:44] <nixternal> 11 years older than me
[07:44] <nixternal> LaserJock: I used to feel the same until I took night classes
[07:44] <Jucato> nixternal: I'll reply to your blog later. but basically my statement is "more than one doesn't mean it has to be a thousand" :)
[07:44] <daSkreech> !mixternal ;-)
[07:44] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about mixternal ;-) - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[07:45] <nixternal> now that I am taking day classes, I started college courses before most of the people in my class were even born, and I am only 33
[07:45] <ScottK> Microsoft is dead already, they just haven't noticed.
[07:45] <Jucato> way to misspell :)
[07:45] <nixternal> hahaha
[07:45] <nixternal> ScottK: I love it! I want that as a bumper sticker
[07:45] <nixternal> speaking of bumpers, when is kdepim going to get fixed :p
[07:46] <Jucato> when we revert to non-enterprise?
[07:46] <ScottK> Don't look at me.  I'm working on python-kde3.
[07:46] <LaserJock> ScottK: for dead people they sure are making a lot of money
[07:46] <nixternal> someone in Illinois has KDE and KDE 4 license plates..I am upset..and someone already has ubuntu, kubuntu, and xubuntu
[07:46] <LaserJock> like elvis or something
[07:46] <nixternal> don't forget tupac
[07:46] <LaserJock> oh, what the heck is the enterprise versioning?
[07:46] <nixternal> tupac released more albums dead then he did alive I think
[07:46] <ScottK> Yes.  I imagine they are like a dinosaur that gets head shot.  It may take days for the body to notice.
[07:47] <LaserJock> has anybody tested that?
[07:47] <nixternal> LaserJock: enterprise is supposed to the better version, the more stable version of kdepim
[07:47] <ScottK> Does anyone know anybody that uses MS products because they think they are great?
[07:47] <LaserJock> yes
[07:47] <nixternal> I use 2 MS Products because I think they are great
[07:47] <LaserJock> university IT pretty much all does
[07:47] <nixternal> 1) MS Mouse, and 2) MS Office
[07:48] <kwwii> does 3rd party software count?
[07:48] <LaserJock> MS Office is really good, unfortunately
[07:48] <nixternal> MS Office is the best, just not 2007
[07:48] <nixternal> I grabbed 2007 from school and I must say it is god awful
[07:48] <nixternal> 2003 was the best yet
[07:48] <ScottK> I was in a meeting last week at a Silicon Valley tech company and looked around and saw 4 mac, 1 ubuntu, 1 kubuntu, and 1 windows laptop.
[07:49] <nixternal> ya, I think I see more Mac at school than anything else
[07:49] <LaserJock> yep
[07:49] <manchicken> nixternal: koffice is the best.
[07:49] <LaserJock> in my department all the profs have macs
[07:49] <LaserJock> my lab is all mac for desktops
[07:49] <nixternal> heck, even in our local LUGS, I see more Mac than anything else I think
[07:49] <ScottK> Although that was the lowest fraction I saw while I was there, the rest of the time is was still majority mac.
[07:49] <LaserJock> with a couple linux machines for data collection
[07:49] <nixternal> I do like Mac hardware, I just don't like the Mac OS
[07:50] <LaserJock> I love OS X
[07:50] <kwwii> if anyone does photo editing I seriously suggest trying Adobe Photoshop Lightroom - it is simply amazing
[07:50] <nixternal> what about digikam's light room?
[07:50] <ScottK> MS Office is good, but overly complex for most needs.  I find the OOO does all that I need.
[07:50] <nixternal> I thought that was pretty cool
[07:50] <nixternal> ScottK: ditto
[07:50] <LaserJock> man, the other day I was going to do a PowerPoint
[07:50] <manchicken> I actually use koffice for pretty much everything.
[07:51] <LaserJock> but I forgot to convert from OO.o to PP before the presentation
[07:51] <ScottK> I like Writer better than word, Calc and Excel are ~ even, and Impress has a little ways to go to get to where Power Point is.
[07:51] <nixternal> manchicken: I started using koffice because of the ooo breakage...and my only problem was kpresenter
[07:51] <kwwii> nixternal: digikam does not come close
[07:51] <manchicken> I use kspread extensively for my home budgeting and such.
[07:51] <LaserJock> so I had to quickly remake my presentation in the 20min before the presentation :(
[07:51] <nixternal> I need to get more into photography...I have always been interested, just never any good
[07:51] <kwwii> nixternal: digikam does not come close to coming close
[07:51] <nixternal> kwwii: and photoshop is qt :)
[07:52] <LaserJock> Writer < Word, Calc << Excel, and Impress <<< Power Point for me, unfortunately
[07:52] <kwwii> I think that when it comes to art apps prop. software is simply better because they build their software on two ideas: what does the customer need and 2) how do make that easy to use
[07:52] <nixternal> nothing beats latex-beamer for presentations...sorry
[07:52] <LaserJock> ewww
[07:52] <LaserJock> I did a couple in pure latex
[07:53] <LaserJock> and a big poster
[07:53] <kwwii> linux art apps are always: what is theoretically more powerful and how do I do it differently than others
[07:53] <LaserJock> that took me like a month to do
[07:53] <nixternal> hahah same here
[07:53] <manchicken> kwwii: I think it's actually because they get to license all of the super-slick fonts and encoding and all that crap.
[07:53] <nixternal> but the outcome was beautiful
[07:53] <kwwii> LaserJock: I know people who are amazingly good at latex
[07:53] <LaserJock> kwwii: I think that's the case for other areas too
[07:53] <kwwii> manchicken: nothing to do with fonts, I mean real funtionality
[07:54] <manchicken> kwwii: If digikam and gimp had access to the same resources, I don't think it would be as much of a profound difference.
[07:54] <LaserJock> kwwii: yeah, my boss only uses emacs+latex for everything
[07:54] <nixternal> I have to use a combo of lyx and kile :)
[07:54] <nixternal> lyx to get it going, and kile to fine tune it
[07:54] <LaserJock> I've never gotten into lyx
[07:54] <LaserJock> I end up just doing it in vim/emacs
[07:54] <manchicken> kwwii: I'm not just talking about fonts either.  A lot of those filters are purchased, not built.  A lot of the stuff that is built in there is the same way.
[07:54] <nixternal> lyx is the easiest latex editor for newbs
[07:54] <LaserJock> although kile is nice
[07:54] <kwwii> manchicken: what resources? honestly, it is the different style of managing a project than anything else I think
[07:54] <kwwii> inkscape is one of the only apps that comes close to creating something uniquely good
[07:54] <nixternal> i just started using kile within the past couple of weeks...pretty impressive actually
[07:54] <manchicken> kwwii: The copyright sheet for photoshop has got to be pages long of nothing but copyright notices.
[07:55] <nixternal> OK, sleep time for me...g'nite
[07:55] <LaserJock> nixternal: one of the KDE apps I'll actually use in gnome
[07:55] <kwwii> nixternal: nighty night
[07:55] <LaserJock> nixternal: night
[07:56] <kwwii> manchicken: sure, because they thought of it first and want to protect their investment as it is a very competitive market
[07:56] <manchicken> kwwii: I also think that photoshop has more artist input than Free Software projects have solicited.
[07:56] <kwwii> but that does not mean that OSS cannot be as good or better
[07:56] <kwwii> one thing is that we started later so we are always playing catch-up
[07:57] <kwwii> but a large part of it has to do with the people who write OSS, they tend to be idealists and not artists
[07:57] <manchicken> kwwii: No, but many of those licensed components also include patent licenses.  Also, many of the folks running those projects keep forgetting who uses the program.
[07:57] <manchicken> It's okay to be an idealist, but it's not okay to forget your user-base :)
[07:58] <kwwii> yepp
[07:58] <manchicken> But I don't think artists were the target audience for digikam.
[07:58] <manchicken> I think folks like me and my wife were.  Digikam seems to be a home photo enthusiast program more than anything else.
[07:58] <kwwii> not at all, it is an app for geeks to sort their photos
[07:58] <manchicken> It's fantastic for organizing your home photos.
[07:59] <manchicken> My wife and I use it all the time.
[07:59] <manchicken> It needs rsync backup functionality though.
[07:59] <manchicken> :)
[08:00] <daSkreech> ScottK: I know lots of peopel who use MS products cause they think they are great
[08:00] <ScottK> In the tech community, I don't find them.
[08:01] <ScottK> In the more general population, I wouldn't be suprised.
[08:05] <manchicken> ScottK: I would argue against the "using them because they're great" justification for using them by saying that freedom isn't worth any amount of functionality, regardless of quality.  We should work to make free software better, but also work on getting non-free software to a point where it respects freedom.  Once that is taken care of then quality can come back into fair play.
[08:05] <manchicken> kwwii: That's a neat photo.
[08:05] <ScottK> Agreed, but the point was about Microsoft.  I think they've already lost.
[08:05] <ScottK> The trick now being to not get caught in the death throws.
[08:06] <kwwii> manchicken: thanks :-) I spent yesterday afternoon at an old-timer rally
[08:06] <manchicken> ScottK: I'd like to think that taking freedom from users is what makes them lose, not the quality--or lack thereof--of their software.
[08:06] <ScottK> I just want them to lose.
[08:06] <manchicken> kwwii: If I get you some photos from a demolition derby, could you do something similar?
[08:06] <manchicken> ScottK: I just want them to respect freedom.
[08:07] <ScottK> Ain't happening.  So what's your second choice.
[08:07] <ScottK> I believe that freedom is good.  I also believe that it works better.
[08:08] <manchicken> ScottK: I don't know.  I'm an idealist.  I think it's possible to get proprietary software houses to respect freedom once we put them in a position where failing to do so damages their ability to compete.
[08:08] <kwwii> manchicken: sure, if they are decent photos :-)
[08:08] <ScottK> manchicken: They don't and can't think that way.
[08:08] <manchicken> kwwii: Well I'm no professional, but I take pretty decent photos for a geek.
[08:08] <kwwii> ;-)
[08:08] <manchicken> ScottK: Then we help them think that way through market pressure by bringing free software to a competitive level.
[08:08] <ScottK> Even the people at MS that understand (and there are some) are handcuffed by the system.
[08:09] <ScottK> But their reaction isn't build better software, it's get better lobbiests
[08:09] <manchicken> ScottK: When free software is to a point where people can do their normal activities without too many hassles and they save money by using free software over proprietary software, then we will have reached a good point to do this.
[08:10] <ScottK> I think we are close to that point now.
[08:10] <manchicken> ScottK: That's why we need more OEMs, more hardware support, and most of all, good desktop software that simply works.
[08:10] <manchicken> I agree.
[08:10] <ScottK> Agreed.
[08:10] <manchicken> This system76 worked beautifully out of the box.
[08:10] <manchicken> It didn't have any problems until I stuck kubuntu gutsy on it :)
[08:11] <ScottK> I find Windows significantly more challenging to instal than Kubuntu these days.
[08:11] <manchicken> Although kubuntu feisty didn't work very well, particularly the power management stuff.
[08:11] <manchicken> ScottK: Remember, most users buy their software pre-installed.
[08:11] <ScottK> There are hardware specific issues that still need to be dealt with.
[08:11] <manchicken> OEM is the key.
[08:11] <ScottK> Agreed.  That's why I agree with you on OEMs.
[08:12] <manchicken> The Dell OEM deal is a beautiful thing.
[08:12] <ScottK> Yep.
[08:12] <manchicken> Hopefully Dell fixes their scalability issues across the board and sells oodles of Dells.
[08:12] <ScottK> From a hardware support perspective, I should be able to put Kubuntu on a Dell and have it work nicely.
[08:12] <manchicken> I think Canonical could do well to try to get Dell to market the Ubuntu OEMs more favorably.
[08:13] <manchicken> Right now you still see windows ads and "you might not want to do this" notices all over the Ubuntu sales pages.
[08:13] <ScottK> Walk then run.
[08:14] <manchicken> Yeah, but I think it's kinda a slap in the face to have those warnings on the ubuntu page.
[08:14] <ScottK> We had a Dell rep in #ubuntu-motu the other day wanting to package stuff that would be useful for them.
[08:14] <manchicken> Cool.
[08:14] <ScottK> First time that's happened.
[08:15] <manchicken> Okay, I'm gonna hit the hay.
[08:15] <manchicken> Later folks.
[08:15] <ScottK> Later
[08:15] <ScottK> Me too.
[08:16] <ScottK> Here's a piece of advice: Don't try to pbuild two versions of python-kde3 at the same time on a machine with 256MB of RAM.  It takes a LONG time.
[08:16] <ScottK> Good night all.
[08:27] <daSkreech> manchicken: That is to make sure the person wants Ubuntu
[08:27] <daSkreech> damn went to bed
[08:53] <SlimG2> I'm creating the following poll on kubuntuforums: "Is KOffice ready to replace OpenOffice.org in Kubuntu?"
[08:54] <SlimG2> Should there be any additional answeroptions other than [yes|no]  ?
[08:58] <SlimG2> thanks for pointing that out for me Jucato, no need for pollposting
[08:59] <Jucato> SlimG2: I think we're just waiting for how KOffice 2.0 turns out before we can make a switch. A bit too late to make a drastic change like that until then imho
[08:59] <Jucato> SlimG2: you could stilll make the poll. might give us a rough idea on how much KOffice is used
[09:00] <Lure> Riddell: I think we have bigger problems with strigi than just tray icon - I will first try to hunt down bug 128876
[09:00] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 128876 in strigi "strigidaemon causes 100% CPU and crashes after a while" [High,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/128876
[09:01] <Lure> Riddell: any news on kdepim issues? Current version is driving me nuts (it starts to fails pop3 connnections in 30 minutes or crashes - I need to restart it in 30-60 minute intervals to be able to do something)
[09:01] <Jucato> Lure: are you able to permanently add/remove directories in strigi:/config ?
[09:06] <Lure> hi Hobbsee
[09:07] <Jucato> hi Hobbsee!!
[09:07] <Lure> Jucato: tried to reproduce, but now it does not start even (after I have added another dir) :-(
[09:08] <Jucato> I'm really worried about strigi... will it make it in time?
[09:08] <Hobbsee> hiya Lure!
[09:08] <Riddell> viviersf: ping
[09:08] <Hobbsee> hiya Ju
[09:08] <Hobbsee> bah.
[09:08] <viviersf> Riddell, ola ?
[09:09] <Riddell> viviersf: you guys are testing kdepim enterprise?
[09:09] <viviersf> Riddell, yeah why
[09:09] <Riddell> viviersf: can we steal your packages?
[09:09] <Lure> Jucato: I hope so - older versions have worked better for me (just some crashes on strange msword documents), so I think
[09:09] <viviersf> Riddell, for gutsy ?
[09:09] <Riddell> viviersf: yes
[09:10] <viviersf> Riddell, yeah cool
[09:10] <Riddell> viviersf: where are they again?  somewhere on an intervention server?
[09:10] <Lure> Riddell: steal from where?
[09:10] <Riddell> Lure: from intervention/impi
[09:10] <viviersf> Riddell, their on intevation
[09:10] <viviersf> Riddell, but my packages are compiled against gutsy, not debian like intevation
[09:11] <viviersf> ill give you link in private
[09:11] <Riddell> even better
[09:12] <Lure> Jucato: add directory is persistent here (i.e. it stays after restart of daemon)
[09:13] <Jucato> Lure: yeah it seems you need to: start daemon to configure, configure, stop or kill daemon, restart daemon...
[09:13] <Jucato> just realized that now...
[09:13] <Lure> Jucato: yep, it seems to write config on shutdown
[09:13] <Jucato> the problem is trying to restart the daemon, sometimes you have to kill it I think...
[09:14] <Lure> Jucato: I think that is the same 100% clu load problem - I think sometimes strigi gets in endless loop
[09:14] <Lure> s/clu/cpu
[09:14] <Hobbsee> OH SHIT.
[09:14] <Hobbsee> GRRRR.
[09:14] <Jucato> Lure: does strigidaemon also die on you when you click on Start Indexing?
[09:15] <Lure> Jucato: no, it just causes cpu load currently
[09:15] <Jucato> weird.. mine dies :(
[09:16] <SlimG2> Poll: Is KOffice ready to replace OpenOffice.org in Kubuntu?: http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3086293.0
[09:16] <Lure> Jucato: crashes are typically result of files that are processed - stream readers for various formats does not seem to be very robust when handling strange formats
[09:16] <SlimG2> ^^ Is that OK or should I edit it?
[09:16] <Lure> Jucato: there are many crash reports: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/strigi/
[09:16] <Jucato> ah I see
[09:20] <Lure> SlimG2: this was discussed in UDS-MTV: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-koffice-by-default
[09:21] <Jucato> Lure: yeah. pointed him to the wiki page, which he mentions at the end of the poll
[09:21] <Jucato> I told him that it would probably be nice if we also had an idea of KOffice usage among are users...
[09:22] <Lure> Jucato: right, did not see the link at first
[09:22] <Jucato> just a rough idea
[09:22] <Lure> Jucato: yep, that would be nice
[09:22] <Lure> Jucato: otherwise we are just trusting our guts feeling
[09:22] <Jucato> or nixternal's... heheh
[09:23] <Jucato> oh and of course I asked SlimG2 to add a "Wait for KOffice 2.0" option hehehe :P
[09:24] <SlimG2> Jucato: You're everywhere :D
[09:24] <Jucato> almost :)
[09:24] <Hobbsee> Riddell: so for the kdepim, are we actually using the normal version at all?
[09:24] <Hobbsee> or just enterprise?
[09:24] <Riddell> Hobbsee: we currently have enterprise
[09:25] <Hobbsee> Riddell: you know about https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdepim/+bug/135394 presumably?
[09:25] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 135394 in kdepim "kmail fetch mail multiple from server if "leave on server for x days" is enabled" [Undecided,New] 
[09:25] <Riddell> Hobbsee: it has lots of bugs, that's why I'm going to sync with impi who have done more QA
[09:25] <Hobbsee> Riddell: right, thought so.  i think i came in on the backend there
[09:26] <Riddell> backend?
[09:27] <Hobbsee> er, back end
[09:27] <Hobbsee> as in, of the conversation
[09:56] <Lure> Riddell: promising: strigi from svn does not loop or crash (yet) ;-)
[09:57] <Hobbsee> the current packages of amarok are at http://ppa.dogfood.launchpad.net/hobbsee/ubuntu/pool/main/a/amarok/ - if anyone feels like making them build, they're welcome.
[10:25] <Riddell> "Rejoice, for PyKDE4 has landed in KDE SVN"  _Sime: awooga
[10:39] <Riddell> 4:3.5.7enterprise20070828really20070825-0ubuntu1  now there's a version number
[10:39] <Jucato> lol!
[11:20] <duccio> Riddell: Hi..I've done the script about clearing cache...and now?
[11:26] <Riddell> duccio: have you tested it?
[11:41] <Riddell> hmm, I may just have spammed all kubuntu-members with reject noticed
[11:41] <Riddell> notices
[11:43] <Riddell> erm, no, it accepted them even with a smaller version number
[11:43] <Riddell> arg
[12:18] <duccio> Riddell: I've tested it and it seems to work
[12:34] <Tonio_> hi
[12:34] <Tonio_> allee: I noticed that your new kblueplug crashes very often at login, did you notice this ?
[12:51] <Lure> Tonio_: I did notice that
[12:52] <Lure> but it looks like some dependancy missing (python import error)
[12:53] <Lure> Tonio_: root cause is probably python-qt4 missing dbus-qt loop integration
[12:53] <Lure> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/36164/
[12:54] <Lure> actually "dpkg -L python-qt4-dbus" reveals it is installed, but not sure by python-dbus does not find it...
[12:55] <Riddell> duccio: great
[12:55] <Riddell> duccio: now you need to make a debdiff, would you like me to walk you through that?
[12:55] <Lure> Tonio_: packaging problem it seems
[12:56] <Lure> python-qt4-dbus should install it in /usr/share/python-support/python-dbus/dbus/mainloop
[12:56] <duccio> Riddell: Yes..it's better
[12:56] <Riddell> duccio: you need to add a changelog entry with: dch -i
[12:56] <Riddell> duccio: then build a source package with: debuild -S
[12:57] <Lure> Tonio_: and qt.py is probably missing also...
[12:57] <Riddell> duccio: then download another copy of the source to do the diff against; mkdir current; cd current; apt-get source kdebase; cd ..
[12:57] <Riddell> duccio: then take a diff:  debdiff current/*dsc *dsc > kdebase.debdiff
[12:57] <Riddell> duccio: then check and upload the resulting file somewhere
[12:58] <Lure> Riddell: i386 kdepim just failed again :-(
[12:58] <Riddell> grump
[01:00] <Lure> Riddell: packaging problem with apidoc
[01:00] <Lure> Riddell: cp: cannot stat `/build/buildd/kdepim-3.5.7enterprise20070828really20070825/debian/tmp////usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/kdepimenterprise20070828-apidocs/': No such file or directory
[01:01] <Lure> Riddell: missing another really20070825? ;-)
[01:01] <Lure> Riddell: not sure vy amd64/lpie worked though
[01:05] <Riddell> mm, right, easily fixed I suppose
[01:08] <mhb> yay, pykde4 is here!
[01:08] <duccio> Riddell: thanks for instruction...but I must go now
[01:09] <duccio> Riddell: see you soon..and I try to do all
[01:30] <allee> Tonio_, Lure: mhb wanted to update python-qt to install qt.so from python-qt4-dbus into /var/lib/... instead of /usr.
[01:31] <allee> Tonio_, Lure: This link proposed by mhb fixed the import error: /var/lib/python-support/python2.5/dbus/mainloop/qt.so -> /usr/lib/python2.5/dbus/mainloop/qt.so
[01:33] <allee> mhmm, no new python-qt4-dbus over the weekend.  mhb what the status python-qt4-dev?
[01:37] <mhb> allee: I asked doko (the last uploader of python-qt4-dbus) why he broke it. No answer,though.
[01:38] <allee> mhb: k
[01:38] <allee> mhb: I can try to pester him tonight (busy right now)
[02:06] <nosrednaekim> yes! pyKDE4 is out!
[02:07] <Riddell> first one to make a package gets a biscuit
[02:27] <sahin_w> Riddell: Are you working on a newer version of kdepim-enterprise?
[02:28] <sahin_w> Riddell: I'm wondering because if you upload it, I'm able to test the IMAP behaviour of the new package.
[02:28] <sahin_w> Riddell: Maybe you remember my problem: kmail mark all of my imap mail as unread.
[02:29] <sahin_w> Riddell: Don't forget the developers told me it has been fixed in the latest svn version.
[02:36] <Riddell> sahin_w: I uploaded the last stable version from impi, I was told that it was stable, it should be available soon
[02:36] <Lure> Riddell: btw, where is kdepim enterprise in svn?
[02:37] <sahin_w> Riddell: Good news!
[02:38] <ryanakca> would bug 136560 be medium or high?
[02:38] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 136560 in kdebase "kde-base update install env and share folder at wrong place" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/136560
[02:38] <sahin_w> Riddell: So, am I able to test it tonight? Or tomorrow?
[02:41] <Riddell> Lure: branches/kdepim
[02:42] <LongPointyStick> oh yay, amarok builds now.
[02:43] <ryanakca> LongPointyStick: :)
[02:44] <LongPointyStick> ryanakca: ah, good luck
[02:44] <LongPointyStick> you should just be able to diff the bzr revisions, but i didnt see anything of note
[02:44] <LongPointyStick> Tonio_: here?
[02:44] <Riddell> ryanakca: High I guess, it could well be due to my changes to startkde
[02:44] <Tonio_> LongPointyStick: yes and no
[02:45] <Tonio_> LongPointyStick: I'm there, but not really available
[02:45] <LongPointyStick> Tonio_: right.  have you seen the bug about your upload?
[02:45] <ryanakca> LongPointyStick: same.. olive-gtk doesn't show anything in the diffs for the past week
[02:45] <ryanakca> Riddell: ok, thanks
[02:45] <LongPointyStick> i think it is a kdebase change, as i havent upgraded to that yet, and dont have the bug
[02:49] <ryanakca> LongPointyStick: hmm. so, 'apt-get source kdebase && cd kdebase-3.5.7 && rm -fr debian && bzr checkout sftp://ryanakca@bazaar.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/kdebase/debian' ?
[02:49] <Lure> Riddell: does enterprise branch has some release schedule?
[02:49] <Riddell> Lure: doesn't seem to
[02:49] <Lure> Riddell: according to log, Aug-25 (what we will get now) was shakiy, as it did not include even fixes from 3.5.7
[02:50] <LongPointyStick> ryanakca: you cna just checkout teh debian dir from bzr
[02:50] <Lure> Riddell: but they have merged on Aug-26 (most of it) and added some fixes that sound like my (pop, paste crash) and sahin_w (imap) issues
[02:50] <LongPointyStick> you dont actually *need* the base tarball, per se
[02:51] <Lure> Riddell: but who is behind this branch, as it have active developers?
[02:51] <Riddell> Lure: hmm, right.  I'm hoping this weeks build will appear soon
[02:51] <Lure> Riddell: and it looks like SuSE also pushed it to 10.2 as update
[02:51] <Riddell> Lure: kdab is, they have people working full time on it
[02:51] <Lure> Riddell: so they have weekly "semi-stable" release?
[02:52] <Lure> Riddell: I have seen also compaints from SuSE update, so at least we are not alone ;-)
[02:52] <Lure> Riddell: if the version from impi will be good, we should do next updates through ppa first to test in smaller audience first
[02:53] <Lure> Riddell: I do not want to have "Kubuntu Gutsy beta sucks" messages (due to kdepim, bluetooth, strigi...)
[02:54] <sahin_w> Lure: FYI I encountered my imap problem on 30. Aug. 2007.
[02:55] <sahin_w> Lure: And I did an upgrade before I started to test the kmail enterprise in gutsy.
[02:56] <Tonio_> LongPointyStick: about which upload ?
[02:56] <Tonio_> LongPointyStick: kdebluetooth ?
[02:56] <LongPointyStick> no, kdebase
[02:56] <Lure> sahin_w: so you first saw the problem on enterprise or just last enterprise broke it?
[02:57] <Riddell> Lure: there's weekly builds at http://apt.intevation.de/dists/etch/experimental/source/
[02:57] <sahin_w> Lure: I think just the last enterprise broke it.
[02:57] <Lure> sahin_w: ok, good to know
[02:57] <Riddell> and when they're tested a bit they move to http://apt.intevation.de/dists/etch/unstable/source/
[02:57] <sahin_w> Lure: I think because when I aksed Riddel, he sent me to the #kontakt channel.
[02:57] <Riddell> but I took the latest one that impi are using
[02:58] <Lure> Riddell: ok, are these .deb created by kdab or just some debian packager is following svn?
[02:58] <sahin_w> Lure: And the developers just ask me two thing: Is this enterprise kdepim? Is this Kubuntu?
[02:59] <sahin_w> Lure: So, they knew the problem. And told me it has been fixed already.
[02:59] <Riddell> Lure: by intevation, who QA them and move to unstable if they aren't broken
[03:00] <Lure> sahin_w: good, at least we have somebody to fix them
[03:00] <sahin_w> Lure: They told me: The kubuntu version is unfortunatley not contains the fix yet, because it's an older snapshot.
[03:00] <Lure> Riddell: maybe we should have these uploaded to some ppa on regular basis and have test team around
[03:00] <Lure> Riddell: just to ensure that kubuntification did not introduce new problems
[03:01] <sahin_w> Lure: I'm just an user, so I'm going to test it. Personaly I think the cure of this problem having a new snapshot.
[03:02] <Lure> sahin_w: I think too, but Riddell made good decision to jump back first to something which is supposed-to-work-for-many
[03:02] <Lure> sahin_w: we just need to have a better way in future to follow enterprise branch and pick something that is not regression from what is in kubuntu repo
[03:03] <Riddell> I see 20070831 is there, feel free to upload to a PPA anyone
[03:03] <Riddell> it needs re-versioned
[03:03] <sahin_w> Lure: Ohhh. Yep, jump back is a good idea too.
[03:03] <Riddell> also debian dir replaced with our one
[03:04] <sahin_w> Lure: I'm able to test any package however. I use kdepim on daily basis from the prehistoric days. ;-)
[03:04] <sahin_w> Lure: I would like to see a rock solid kdepim in gutsy.
[03:05] <Lure> Riddell: will look into this tonight (as it is more important for me as strigi infinite loop)
[03:05] <Lure> sahin_w: great, we need testers of development versions - developers are sometimes not good testers (as they might not see the obvious) ;-)
[03:06] <Lure> sahin_w: and do not use stuff that users do ;-)
[03:06] <sahin_w> Lure: :-D
[03:09] <Tonio_> allee: will test the link
[03:14] <ryanakca> Hmm. Anybody mind leaving me kdebase for the day... and if I don't finish/fix it by 8:00ish EST tonight, someone else can take the bug?
[03:14] <Riddell> ryanakca: go ahead
[03:14] <ryanakca> Riddell: thanks :)
[03:35] <ryanakca> Riddell: what's the name of your startkde patch?
[03:35] <Riddell> ryanakca: is was an existing one (or two) that were modified
[03:35] <Riddell> changelog should say
[03:36] <ryanakca> ok, thanks :)
[03:49] <Tonio_> Riddell: do you want kwallet and gtk-qt-engines to be executable ?
[03:50] <Tonio_> Riddell: bug 136560 seems to be related to your latest kdebase upload
[03:50] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 136560 in kdebase "kde-base update install env and share folder at wrong place" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/136560
[03:52] <ryanakca> Tonio_: are each Ubuntu revision a new upload? (-ubuntu15, upload, -ubuntu16, upload, etc?), or can there be more than one revision per upload. And is there a way to isolate what revisions have to do with the upload?
[03:54] <Lure> yes! kdepim i386 built successfully!
[03:54] <Tonio_> ryanakca: evey revision means new upload yes
[03:54] <Tonio_> ryanakca: you can get evey package and all versions on launchpad, on the source page of a package
[03:54] <manchicken> Lure: Does that mean kmail may work better now?
[03:54] <ryanakca> ok, thanks
[03:54] <manchicken> That'd be sweet.
[04:01] <Lure> manchicken: we all hope so, otherwise I will test latest branch tonight and provide some test binaries in ppa for wider testing
[04:02] <Riddell> ryanakca: debdiff with the old version
[04:05] <Riddell> Tonio_: that'll be the same issue ryanakca is looking into
[04:05] <ryanakca> Riddell: thanks :)
[04:06] <Riddell> ryanakca: looks like it needs to be $kdehome instead of $KDEHOME for that gtk and kwallet patch
[04:08] <ryanakca> Riddell: yeah... but would that change the whole .kde?
[04:08] <ryanakca> I guess since it's just kwalletrc in ~/share/config/ ... aha, thanks :D
[04:12] <ryanakca> Riddell: hmm. mind commiting to kdebase's debian bazaar? the two debians are different... the one in bazaar only has Hobbsee's .Xmodmap as -1ubuntu17, whereas the source package for -1ubuntu17 has your blurb
[04:13] <Riddell> just use the one from the ubuntu archive
[04:13] <ryanakca> okies :)
[04:14] <Hobbsee> yes, i've got a change in there that needs to be uploaded.  i figured it could wait until someone else uploaded
[04:14] <Hobbsee> oh yay, someone's modified and hastn committed to bzr?
[04:14] <Riddell> that'll be me
[04:14] <Riddell> ryanakca: feel free to merge if you want
[04:14] <Hobbsee> ryanakca: please merge it.
[04:14] <Hobbsee> some of us dont have unlimited bandwidth.
[04:16] <ryanakca> Riddell: ok
[04:16] <ryanakca> Hobbsee: I guess your patch goes into -1ubuntu18 ?
[04:17] <Riddell> yes
[04:17] <Riddell> ryanakca: you can also remove the kubuntu_9902_nspluginviewer_hangs_cpu.diff patch
[04:17] <Riddell> and the gtk build-dep
[04:17] <Riddell> that should be fixed now
[04:20] <ryanakca> And... in Hobbsee's commit for -1ubuntu17 in the bzr branch, it's UNRELEASED instead of gutsy... do I follow suit, or put gutsy?
[04:20] <Hobbsee> ryanakca: put gutsy when someone's actually going to upload it
[04:20] <ryanakca> ok, thanks :)
[04:20] <Riddell> which I will if you send me a debdiff
[04:28] <ryanakca> Riddell: sorry, I have to leave... I'll be back in a couple hours with a debdiff :)
[05:32] <Lure> Riddell: new kdepim is slightly better, but still crashes when Ctrl-V into e-mail :-(
[05:32] <Lure> Riddell: will try to build last snapshot when I get home tonight
[05:33] <Riddell> thanks
[05:50] <Jucato> hm...python-launchpad-bugs being held back for anyone else?
[05:54] <Riddell> that's one long CC meeting
[06:07] <nixternal> hola
[06:09] <Hobbsee> heh
[06:09] <Hobbsee> it's the first one in how long, though?
[06:09] <Hobbsee> irc council is done, though
[06:13] <Hobbsee> i think this one wins the record, time-wise, though
[06:14] <nixternal> how long ago did it start?
[06:14] <Hobbsee> it started at 11pm local, it's now 2.14am
[06:14] <nixternal> holy smokes, 3 hours and still going
[06:14] <Hobbsee> yep
[06:42] <nixternal> kdepim looks much better today
[06:48] <Lure> nixternal: yep, still crashes on paste (Ctrl-V)
[06:48] <Lure> how can I remove package from ppa?
[06:49] <nixternal> you can't just yet, but you may be able to request someone with admin rights to remove it
[06:49] <nixternal> I noticed there were 2 marked with "Pending removal" in the Kubuntu Members PPA
[06:51] <Lure> nixternal: does it at least replace old one if I upload new?
[06:51] <nixternal> I am not sure actually...maybe someone in #launchpad knows
[06:51] <nixternal> I thought about doing that as well, and forgot to ask someone about it as well
[06:51] <Lure> nixternal: ok, will ask there
[06:51] <Riddell> if the version number is larger sure
[06:51] <Riddell> if it's the same, who knows
[06:52] <nixternal> but if it is a larger version #, the old package still remains in the PPA correct?
[06:52] <nixternal> or is that how the kde4edu packages had a pending removal, because you uploaded newer
[06:53] <Lure> nixternal: yep, that is probably the reason for pending removal
[06:53] <nixternal> ahh, cool then
[06:57] <Lure> nixternal: [18:54]  <kiko> Lure, you can't yet -- you will be able to in about 3 weeks.
[06:58] <Lure> nixternal: regarding superseeding: [18:55]  <kiko> Lure, it won't, but it doesn't matter -- apt does the right thing.
[06:58] <Riddell> nixternal: I don't know
[07:07] <nixternal> groovy
[07:33] <DaSkreech> has there been proven benefits from upstart?
[08:02] <sahin_w> Riddell and Lure: I updated my gutsy to check kmail.
[08:02] <sahin_w> Riddell and Lure: Unfortunately kmail mark my messages as unread.
[08:03] <sahin_w> Riddell and Lure: So this version has this IMAP problem too.
[08:03] <Lure> sahin_w: I am preparing current snapshot and as soon as I confirm that there is no new regression I will upload to ppa so you can pick it up for testing
[08:04] <Lure> sahin_w: currenct version at least does not crash on pop3 access, but it still crashes for me on Ctrl-V (paste) into message window
[08:05] <Lure> sahin_w: it seems Riddell was right to pick up new snapshot, just the time he did it was probably not the best
[08:05] <sahin_w> Lure: Yeah I saw that, I know the current version is for dubble checking.
[08:05] <Lure> sahin_w: so I hope today's snapshot (which is friday + some build fixes) should be stable
[08:05] <sahin_w> Lure: If you finish the upload I will test it.
[08:05] <Lure> sahin_w: friday builds are used for their qa, so they should be slightly more stable
[08:06] <Lure> sahin_w: I am currently building here, so it may take some hours to get it on ppa
[08:06] <Lure> sahin_w: if you are very eager to test, I could upload my test binary package (i386) asap I have it
[08:07] <sahin_w> sahin_w: Well, I'm working here on one of our customer problem, so meanwhile I can test it.
[08:08] <sahin_w> Lure: Well, I'm working here on one of our customer problem, so meanwhile I can test it.
[08:08] <sahin_w> Lure: Where could you upload it?
[08:10] <Lure> sahin_w: I could put it to some web space
[08:10] <sahin_w> Lure: Ok, thats will be fine.
[08:17] <Lure> anybody knows what happend to kde4 beta2 - I thought it should been tagged/released already?>
[08:17] <mhb> Lure: not released yet
[08:18] <Lure> mhb: so delay?
[08:18] <mhb> Lure: but it was tagged, that is true. But I don't know the greater scheme of KDE things
[09:31] <_StefanS_> evening
[09:33] <DaSkreech> Hi
[09:35] <DaSkreech> Where does konqi stick temp files while it's downloading?
[09:35] <_StefanS_> DaSkreech: my guess is your <username>-local folder in /tmp
[09:35] <_StefanS_> DaSkreech: kde-<username> sorry
[09:35] <blekos> hello, i've come up with a strange "problem", i'm running kubuntu on a dual-boot laptop.
[09:36] <DaSkreech> Yeah All I see in there are logs
[09:36] <blekos> My other partitions are mounted (can see them throug /storage media)
[09:36] <blekos> but their icons are not displayed on my desktop
[09:36] <DaSkreech> Guess it deleted it before showing the error message
[09:37] <_StefanS_> blekos: you should specifically select them to be shown
[09:37] <blekos> pls note i have enabled
[09:37] <blekos> by right click etc
[09:37] <_StefanS_> uhm ok
[09:37] <blekos> configure desktop etc
[09:38] <blekos> the thing is I used to have them on my desktop but after an update there are not there any more...
[09:39] <_StefanS_> blekos: uhm, donno. Sorry
[09:39] <DaSkreech> blekos: Gutsy?
[09:39] <blekos> yes
[09:39] <_StefanS_> blekos: well I cant make my harddisk to show either
[09:40] <blekos> ha! just inserted my usb stick and now everything appeared on the desktop
[09:40] <blekos> it must be a short of a bug
[09:41] <nosrednaekim> DaSkreech: I think konqueror stores stuff directly in /tmp
[09:41] <DaSkreech> nosrednaekim: It deleted it before it threw the message then
[09:42] <nosrednaekim> that sucks.
[09:43] <_StefanS_> better use google maps to find my way around
[09:44] <blekos> i try to install a .deb package with gdebi but i get the message
[09:44] <blekos> The package file does not exist
[09:44] <blekos> A nonexistent file has been selected for installation. Please select an existing .deb package file.
[09:50] <_StefanS_> Riddell: shouldn't we install python-sip4-dev as standard to have Disks & Filesystems (mountconfig) to work out of the box?
[09:51] <manchicken> Should we really have Ctrl-Tab as walking desktops when so many users are used to using that key combo for MDI switching?
[09:52] <_StefanS_> manchicken: I think it should stay as MDI, and then use the Super (win)-key for cycling desktops
[09:52] <manchicken> Agreed.
[09:53] <manchicken> That's what I always switch it to.
[09:53] <_StefanS_> manchicken: me to ;)
[09:53] <DaSkreech> manchicken: When did Ctrl+Tab become desktop switching?
[09:53] <manchicken> DaSkreech: It's the default right now under Gutsy.
[09:54] <manchicken> kmail seems to have settled down, which is nice.
[09:54] <_StefanS_> what are we doing to solve those high and medium bugs in launchpad?
[09:54] <DaSkreech> that sucks :)
[09:54] <_StefanS_> Seems like there's quite a few that needs some closure
[09:54] <_StefanS_> like that simple one i mentioned on disks & filesystems
[09:57] <manchicken> If there are any python proggies that need a little attention I wouldn't mind hacking one of them for a little.
[09:57] <manchicken> I've been playing with PyQt4 for a few days and I'm pretty comfortable with it.
[09:59] <Riddell> _StefanS_: hmm, I did move a file in the hope that would get fixed
[10:00] <_StefanS_> Riddell: still doesn't work unfortunately
[10:00] <_StefanS_> Riddell: tested on a few machines here.
[10:00] <DaSkreech> You know what I don't understand
[10:01] <_StefanS_> what is that ? :D
[10:01] <DaSkreech> ICQ almost never logs in on my install of Kubuntu
[10:01] <DaSkreech> but does it easily on the live CD
[10:01] <DaSkreech> I think kopete just hates me
[10:01] <DaSkreech> :-(
[10:01] <DaSkreech> anyway :) back to your previous discussion
[10:01] <_StefanS_> heh
[10:08] <sahin_w> Lure: I have to go... I will test your new kdepim package tomorrow, after your upload.
[10:09] <Lure> sahin_w: ok, I had to rebuild once, so it is taking a bit long
[10:09] <sahin_w> Lure: No problem. Bye!
[10:14] <_StefanS_> Riddell: I got a fix for #47412, will mail you the debdiff
[10:15] <DaSkreech> bug 47412
[10:15] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 47412 in kde-guidance "Users&Groups: Small error in group handling" [Low,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/47412
[10:19] <Tm_T> hmm hmm
[10:21] <_StefanS_> Tm_T: what ? :)
[10:21] <Tm_T> I wonder where I could get nice looking Ubuntu contact cards pressed cheapest
[10:25] <_StefanS_> gotta sleep. night all.
[10:26] <manchicken> Lure: So did you not fix kdepim?
[10:27] <manchicken> Somebody did.
[10:27] <manchicken> And it's making my life much easier.
[10:27] <Lure> manchicken: no, this is reverted version, but still have issues
[10:27] <Lure> manchicken: I am building today;s snapshot just now and will put it in ppa for wider testing
[10:27] <manchicken> kmail hasn't done anything insane for a few hours.
[10:28] <manchicken> I thought it was your package.  I suppose not :)
[10:30] <DaSkreech> Great Netscape preinstalled Weather bug for me. Thanks Marketing team!
[10:38] <Lure> manchicken: does Ctrl-V (paste) into compose mail window crash for you?
[10:38] <manchicken> Hmm...
[10:38] <manchicken> Let me try... it's locking up...
[10:39] <manchicken> kontact seems to be completely locked up now that I've Ctrl-V'd
[10:39] <manchicken> Not redrawing or anything.
[10:39] <manchicken> And down it goes.
[10:39] <Lure> manchicken: exactly ;-)
[10:39] <manchicken> Yes, kmail does crash when I Ctrl-V
[10:40] <Lure> manchicken: ok, this is supposed to be fixed in today snapshot
[10:40] <manchicken> Ah.
[10:40] <manchicken> That's always nice.
[10:41] <manchicken> I ctrl-v quite a bit.
[10:42] <Lure> manchicken: mouse paste does the same, so no workaround for paste :-(
[10:42] <manchicken> Shift-insert?
[10:42] <manchicken> right-click paste?  edit->paste?
[10:43] <manchicken> If that's the case it sounds like it may be a kmail interfacing with klipper issue.
[10:43] <manchicken> Or does it just use the normal X clipboard?  Dunno.
[10:44] <manchicken> I'm guessing it'd use klipper
[10:57] <ryanakca> Riddell: would a 'bzr diff' on the debian/ dir work as a debdiff?
[11:02] <Lure> manchicken: it is X clipboard issue
[11:02] <Lure> manchicken: I can paste now with latest snapshot ! ;-)
[11:05] <manchicken> Nice.
[11:05] <manchicken> Ooh, lirc support is much better.
[11:07] <Riddell> ryanakca: no, although it's usable too
[11:07] <Riddell> I mean it's not a debdiff but it'll do the same job
[11:08] <Lure> Riddell: new snapshot fixed paste bug, but pop3 behaves strange (starts plenty of kio_pop3s)
[11:10] <Riddell> someone was complaining of that earlier
[11:10] <DaSkreech> nixternal: pinf^Hg
[11:10] <Riddell> mhb: I compiled kdelibs & base 3.5.5 and python-kde against them on gutsy and the konsole issue is exactly the same :(
[11:11] <ryanakca> Riddell: I'll run it threw sbuild, and if it builds (which it should), I'll stick the debdiff somewheres
[11:11] <DaSkreech> hi hunger
[11:17] <Lure> great, Hobbsee is in motu-uvf - I hope I still have some bonus points ;-)
[11:18] <Lure> Riddell: is anybody working on python-qt4-dbus fix for kblueplugd crash on login?
[11:19] <DaSkreech> Wow I hope xubuntu sorts itself out
[11:21] <Lure> Riddell: today's snapshot is better for imap, but worse for pop (similar to your last snapshot) and it fixes paste crash
[11:21] <Lure> Riddell: so not yet ready for archive
[11:22] <Lure> Riddell: I have uploaded it to my ppa though for sahin_w to test his issue tommorow
[11:22] <LaserJock> DaSkreech: what's the problem?
[11:22] <DaSkreech> LaserJock: seems to be bleeding users cause it's too similar to ubuntu
[11:29] <ryanakca> Lure: how long is the wait to get your package built?
[11:30] <Lure> ryanakca: probably an hour, maybe a bit more due to xen, but I am also uploading my private build to web space
[11:30] <Lure> ryanakca: but pop3 is really bad
[11:31] <Lure> ryanakca: but paste works which makes me happy at work (when I only have imap)
[11:31] <ryanakca> pop3? like... pop3, imap, etc?
[11:31] <ryanakca> ah
[11:31] <Lure> ryanakca: yes, there is a bug with pop3 account - it starts 100s of kio_pop3 processes that hang the system and kmail finally dies (after all kind of wrong errors reported)
[11:32] <Lure> ryanakca: imap works fine
[11:32] <ryanakca> cool
[11:32] <ryanakca> imap works fine here
[11:32] <ryanakca> too
[11:32] <Lure> Riddell: ups, I think I have overloaded muse ;-) - disk full
[11:34] <Lure> Riddell: ok, it was not me - it only has 50M space...
[11:36] <mhb> nixternal: why do you stick with Kubuntu, the distro offering one app for each task? :o)
[11:37] <Lure> mhb: that is not correct -> only one installed by default ;-)
[11:39] <bobesponja> hey all, I'm using gutsy from today and kmail crashed when I do Ctrl+V to past text, am I the only one?
[11:40] <mhb> Lure: right, I am just generalizing a bit to make fun of nixternal (but nice clean fun I hope) :o)
[11:40] <mhb> bobesponja: no, you are like the 1000th one :o)
[11:40] <mhb> bobesponja: you can be sure that we will do what we can to fix it
[11:41] <Lure> Riddell: would you fancy an upload of kdepim with just Ctrl-V fix? I can prepare debdiff, but will not compile it as I need sleep?
[11:41] <bobesponja> mhb: ok :), thanx
[11:44] <mhb> bobesponja: don't thank me, Lure is the hard-working one to be thanked, see his last message
[11:45] <Lure> mhb: actually I am just testing/building/hunting kdepim guys - they are hopefully fixing it ;-)
[11:46] <bobesponja> ok thanx to Lure then
[11:46] <bobesponja> chau
[11:47] <mhb> Lure: by the way, have you tested pykde4 yet?
[11:47] <Lure> mhb: no, still did not get my hands dirty with kde4 :-(
[11:47] <Lure> mhb: but I plan to start playing with beta2, but most probably hacking digikam first (not python stuff)
[12:03] <Riddell> Lure: upload, sure
[12:03] <Lure> Riddell: it is not as simple as I though
[12:03] <Lure> Riddell: several svn commits needed
[12:04] <Lure> Riddell: but they have reverted some stuff that should fix pop3, so I am currently working on that and will upload to ppa tonight (hopefully)
[12:19] <nixternal> mhb: I use Kubuntu cuz Riddell said he would beat me up if I didn't
[12:21] <mhb> _Sime: hi, I'm having trouble compiling pykde4 on a amd64 arch, I've tried to google the issues and it might be int/SIP_SSIZE_T related. Just letting you know.
[12:21] <nixternal> hehe
[12:21] <nixternal> with a mean uppercut!
[12:21] <mhb> wasn't that the popular violent video game?
[12:22] <mhb> :o)
[12:24] <mhb> I apologize for the small rudeness of that joke. To say the truth, Quakers aren't really known here in the Czech Rep (central Europe)
[12:28] <Lure> Riddell: fyi, source is in my ppa https://launchpad.net/~lure/+archive, I will tell you in the morning about the quality when it builds for me
[12:33] <Riddell> Lure: ok, thanks