[08:08] <mdamt> Can I use PPA to build packages for UME?
[08:09] <mdamt> Hmm I guess no, https://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart says it's only for x86 and AMD64....
[08:51] <dholbach> good morning
[03:24] <Uraeus> Mithrandir: around?
[03:24] <Mithrandir> Uraeus: I am
[05:09] <amitk> Mithrandir: ping
[05:13] <Mithrandir> hi amit
[05:16] <amitk> Mithrandir: Hi. I have to run to the shop to fix an emergency leak in the bathroom. I'll try to make it back before the meeting, but I have sent the spec status in case I don't
[05:16] <Mithrandir> ok, thanks.
[05:17] <Mithrandir> good luck with fixing the leak. :-)
[05:17] <amitk> Mithrandir: easier said than done. I have no idea how to fix it :-p 
[05:18] <Mithrandir> worst case, call a plumber.
[05:23] <bfiller> Mithrandir: question about hildon-desktop from upstream
[05:24] <Mithrandir> shoot
[05:24] <bfiller> Mithrandir: how often do we plan to merge into ubuntu branch? Looks like they've made a bunch of fixes that we proabably want
[05:25] <Mithrandir> I don't have a schedule for it, I'm happy to take whatever fixes they think are suitable for us
[05:26] <bfiller> Mithrandir: ok, I can also take a look at some of the changes and see if it's stuff we need
[05:29] <bfiller> Mithrandir: one more thing re:hildon-desktop trunk that I see on Lauchpad. Is this imported daily into launchpad or is it linked directly to upstream's source control?
[05:31] <Mithrandir> the vcs-import branch is imported regularly.  I'm not sure exactly how often, but I believe it's every 15 minutes or so
[05:32] <bfiller> thanks
[05:46] <smagoun> Mithrandir: I have patch for https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/137346 , which affects xserver-xorg-video-psb. Is that something you can apply? I was hoping bryce would get to it, I haven't seen him around recently though.
[05:48] <Mithrandir> smagoun: there was a bit of discussion about it either on a list or private mail.
[05:48] <Mithrandir> I can't remember what the conclusion was, though
[05:55] <smagoun> Mithrandir: There was some discussion on IRC; as I recall the conclusion was that EXA 2.2 (a hw-accelerated X API) wouldn't be backported to gutsy, so the driver needed to be able to work with EXA 2.1.
[05:56] <agoliveira> Meeting in 4?
[05:56] <Mithrandir> oh, you have a patch, sorry, I didn't see that bit.  Please send it to bryce and I'll prod him to get it integrated.
[05:56] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: yes
[05:56] <Mithrandir> bspencer_: morning, do you have your guys awake and present?
[05:57] <agoliveira> Thanks. I just had lunch so you won't hear me complaining this time :)
[05:57] <bfiller> agoliveira: pre-meeting question for you - a few weeks back you were working on completing the libosso integration (rather than stripping it out). Is this complete?
[05:57] <agoliveira> s/hear/see
[05:58] <agoliveira> bfiller: Yes, libosso is running at least on a compatibility level. I didn't test it's services tough but dbus wise should work I believe.
[05:58] <Mithrandir> asac,kwwii: you guys around?
[05:59] <bfiller> agoliveira: ok, thanks. I will ping you later w/some further questions
[05:59] <agoliveira> bfiller: no probme.
[05:59] <agoliveira> problem
[06:00] <asac> Mithrandir: yes
[06:00] <Mithrandir> good, since we're about to start the meeting, once the Intel guys show up.
[06:00] <bspencer_> Mithrandir: morning.  I am my guys
[06:00] <Mithrandir> hi Charlie
[06:01] <agoliveira> "I am my guys" ? Weird... :)
[06:01] <ToddBrandt> Hello all
[06:01] <ToddBrandt> bspencer is all of us
[06:01] <Mithrandir> bspencer_: so you're all present and accounted for then?
[06:01] <bspencer_> indeed
[06:02] <Charliefjohnson> Morning folks (at least morning here in Oregon, USA)
[06:03] <Mithrandir> ok, let's start then
[06:03] <agoliveira> Cool. Let's try 1 hour today? :)
[06:04] <Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: can you give us an update on the hardware decode bits?
[06:04] <Mithrandir> it's marked as not started in LP, I hope that's not correct?
[06:04] <Mithrandir> #startmeeting
[06:04] <MootBot> Meeting started at 15:55. The chair is Mithrandir.
[06:04] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC] , [IDEA] , [ACTION] , [AGREED] , [LINK] , [VOTE] 
[06:04] <Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  mobile-hw-decode
[06:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-hw-decode 
[06:04] <Mithrandir> I almost forgot to use the bot. :-)
[06:04] <Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Don't have the updated info.  I'll have to nag Waldo. Sorry.
[06:05] <Mithrandir> could you do that and get him to send the status to the list?
[06:05] <Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:OK
[06:05] <Mithrandir> [ACTION]  Charliefjohnson to talk with Waldo and get hw decode spec status posted to ubuntu-mobile@
[06:05] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Charliefjohnson to talk with Waldo and get hw decode spec status posted to ubuntu-mobile@ 
[06:05] <Mithrandir> thanks
[06:05] <Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  mobile-browser
[06:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-browser 
[06:06] <cwong1> Asac has Uploaded a new midbrowser release to gusty. It had a problem but asac has just uploaded a fix. The browser should come up in the new target.
[06:06] <bspencer_> really?  great news
[06:06] <asac> ack
[06:06] <bspencer_> what was the problem?
[06:06] <Mithrandir> cwong1: yay, great.
[06:06] <cwong1> We contacted addons owners to add support for midbrowser.  The responses are good so far. If we supply them the patch to install.rdf, they will incorperate it in their package.
[06:06] <asac> bspencer_: packaging glitch
[06:06] <Mithrandir> cwong1: should you be the assignee for the mobile-browser spec, rather than Bob?
[06:06] <asac> bspencer_: uploaded from wrong local bzr branch :)
[06:06] <bspencer_> Mithrandir: probably, yes
[06:06] <cwong1> Mithrandir: yes
[06:06] <bspencer_> asac: I see
[06:06] <Charliefjohnson> So is the icon on the UI hooked up to launch it ?
[06:07] <cwong1> It should
[06:07] <bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: from what I've seen on crown beach applications start very slowly.  
[06:07] <Mithrandir> cwong1: what's your LP username?
[06:07] <bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: including calculator
[06:07] <bfiller> cwong1: is there a .service file to prevent multiple instances from being launched?
[06:07] <cwong1> LP?
[06:07] <bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: and the browser is the slowest right now.  just fyi.
[06:07] <Charliefjohnson> bspencer_, : you have the libata patch?
[06:07] <HappyCamp> launchpad.net cwong1 
[06:07] <agoliveira> cwong1: Launchpad
[06:08] <cwong1> cwong1
[06:08] <bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: I only heard from QA.  I'll check with you about that after . I don't know if they had the libata patch
[06:08] <cwong1> bfiller: I done have a .service file yet
[06:08] <bfiller> cwong1: but you are planning to, correct?
[06:08] <Charliefjohnson> bspencer_, :If they have the lastest kernel, they should have it.  You'll know it on the install if you don't.
[06:09] <cwong1> bfiller: y
[06:09] <cwong1> One last thing, we are currently working on a browser plugin to invoke our media player for video, pictures, music, ..etc.
[06:09] <cwong1> as the default ...
[06:10] <Mithrandir> ok
[06:10] <bspencer_> just a note here:  the current plan is to play all media content in the external player, except for flash video.
[06:10] <Mithrandir> is that properly documented in the spec?  (I can't remember)
[06:10] <bspencer_> if you click a radio link, for example, it opens the media player and starts to play.  Then you have to toggle back to the browser.
[06:10] <bspencer_> Mithrandir: not sure.  cwong1 is the owner ;)
[06:10] <cwong1> I will double check and if not I will update the doc
[06:11] <Mithrandir> ok, good
[06:11] <Mithrandir> moving on then.
[06:11] <Mithrandir> amitk: are you back again?
[06:12] <Mithrandir> seems not, we'll hopefully catch him later.
[06:12] <Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  mobile-graphics
[06:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-graphics 
[06:12] <agoliveira> literally...
[06:12] <Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: could you please give us an update here?  I saw some discussion about EXA 2.2?
[06:13] <Charliefjohnson> OK. We have a current issue with the "psb" driver where it is claiming EXA 2.2 support where xserver 1.3 only has EXA 2.1
[06:13] <Charliefjohnson> So you get no 2D acceleration.
[06:13] <Mithrandir> smagoun here said he had a patch to fix that?
[06:13] <Mithrandir> (just before the meeting)
[06:13] <Charliefjohnson> Who is smagoun?
[06:14] <smagoun> yes: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/137346
[06:14] <Charliefjohnson> So is this now resolved?
[06:14] <smagoun> CharliefJohnson: I work with bfiller, patm, lenkawell, etc
[06:14] <Mithrandir> it's not uploaded, but apparently we have a fix for it available.
[06:14] <smagoun> The patch needs to be applied to UME and possibly moblin
[06:15] <Charliefjohnson> I'll look at the bug report.
[06:15] <Mithrandir> smagoun: if you could attach the patch (if you haven't already) that'd be good.
[06:15] <Mithrandir> I'll notify bryce about it too
[06:15] <Charliefjohnson> Anyway - the redesign to ensure that the psb drm module can be open is complete and they are implementing.
[06:15] <smagoun> Mithrandir:  did that already
[06:16] <Mithrandir> [ACTION]  tfheen to talk with Bryce about EXA 2.1 patch for psb X driver
[06:16] <MootBot> ACTION received:  tfheen to talk with Bryce about EXA 2.1 patch for psb X driver 
[06:17] <Charliefjohnson> I thinik the first 3D capable drop will show up in Nov.
[06:17] <Mithrandir> ok
[06:17] <Charliefjohnson> There may be some intermediate drops worth taking, I have to verify that with the team however.
[06:18] <Mithrandir> it would be useful so we could test it when we start getting the clutter UI drops happening.
[06:19] <Mithrandir> moving on, we've had reports from Bob about the UI so next up is the USB client stuff
[06:19] <Charliefjohnson> "clutter" is the replacement for flash?
[06:19] <bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: yes, based on OpenGL
[06:19] <Mithrandir> clutter is libclutter, OpenGL library developed by openedhand
[06:19] <Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  usb client
[06:19] <MootBot> New Topic:  usb client 
[06:20] <Charliefjohnson> I got a status from them yesterday.  I'll post it to the mailing list.
[06:20] <Mithrandir> ok, thanks.
[06:20] <Mithrandir> any interesting highlights?
[06:21] <Charliefjohnson> I didn't really read it yet. Sorry.  I was in a meeting all day yesterday.
[06:21] <HappyCamp> Charliefjohnson, http://projects.o-hand.com/  for Clutter info and more.
[06:21] <Mithrandir> ok, no problem
[06:21] <Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  mobile utilities
[06:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile utilities 
[06:21] <Mithrandir> ToddBrandt: do you have a status update for us?
[06:22] <ToddBrandt> yea
[06:22] <ToddBrandt> As for the status of specific applets: All existing applets are fully functional except Date & Time, but it should be fully debugged by next week. The volume and screen brightness applets are delayed because they don't yet conform to the hildon status bar applet format (waiting for the owner to send an update)
[06:22] <ToddBrandt> Then there's a general issue of gconf settings: most control panel applet functions don't take because the apps on the system aren't listening to the cp applets' gconf keys. I'm creating a spreadsheet with all the them so we can add/change things til we get it right, then I'll maintain it on moblin.org for reference.
[06:23] <ToddBrandt> The second is more interesting, I assume that gconf is the standard of choice, yes?
[06:23] <agoliveira> ToddBrandt: You had that on your clipboard all the time didn't you? :)
[06:23] <Charliefjohnson> ToddBrandt: Great Update!
[06:23] <ToddBrandt> heh, I like to get it right ;)
[06:23] <Mithrandir> why don't they take?
[06:23] <HappyCamp> agoliveira, ToddBrandt is our very own "Mavis Bacon" ;)
[06:23] <bfiller> ToddBrandt: when will the applets show up in the control panel so we can play with them?
[06:23] <ToddBrandt> well the apps have to be listening to the right keys, so some do and some don;t
[06:23] <bspencer_> ToddBrandt I think gconf is the default.  I don't know if there is a dbus interface for it.  I recall corba being there and Nokia had some dbus addition, but it wasn't upstream
[06:24] <ToddBrandt> bfiller: they're there now, you're not seeing them !?
[06:24] <ToddBrandt> they're in ubuntu-staging 
[06:24] <bfiller> ToddBrandt: no
[06:24] <amitk> agoliveira: I survived ;)
[06:24] <agoliveira> amitk: Cool ;)
[06:24] <bfiller> ToddBrandt: I ran image creator yesterday and didn't see them
[06:24] <Mithrandir> bfiller: they're in a separate fset
[06:25] <bfiller> Mithrandir: ah, which one?
[06:25] <ToddBrandt> bfiller: yea you have to install the ubuntu-stagin fset
[06:25] <Mithrandir> ubuntu-staging
[06:25] <bspencer_> you have to add it manually, (not part of samsung-full...)
[06:25] <bfiller> ToddBrandt: thanks, sorry for the confusion
[06:25] <bspencer_> bfiller: until they get integrated into ubuntu-mobile.
[06:25] <ToddBrandt> no problem :)
[06:25] <Mithrandir> gconf in Ubuntu doesn't have a dbus interface, but it does have a CORBA interface.  We should probably kill orbit and just use dbus
[06:26] <bspencer_> Mithrandir: I think that is the right thing to do
[06:26] <bspencer_> Nokia did this I believe
[06:26] <agoliveira> +1
[06:26] <bspencer_> owner = ToddBrandt  ? 
[06:26] <Mithrandir> if he's willing or can be voluntold, sure.
[06:26] <ToddBrandt> bspoencer: yea, I'll take it
[06:26] <bspencer_> agoliveira doesn't have anything to do I hear ;)
[06:26] <Mithrandir> [ACTION]  ToddBrandt to investigate use of DBUS for gconf
[06:26] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ToddBrandt to investigate use of DBUS for gconf 
[06:26] <bspencer_> ToddBrandt cool. 
[06:27] <Mithrandir> ToddBrandt: are you working with HappyCamp on getting the code uploaded?
[06:27] <ToddBrandt> Mithrandir: did you get that lsb-base patch uploade ?
[06:27] <ToddBrandt> Mithrandir: which code uploaded?
[06:27] <Mithrandir> ToddBrandt: asac fixed it in NM itself.
[06:27] <Mithrandir> ToddBrandt: the control panel applet code.
[06:28] <ToddBrandt> Mithrandir: asac only fixed half the bug, it will still fail when the package is removed, we need the fix to lsb-base
[06:28] <Mithrandir> he's your point main for getting stuff into Ubuntu now, and knows how the sponsorship process works.
[06:28] <Mithrandir> [ACTION]  tfheen to investigate lsb-base bug which breaks when network-manager is removed
[06:28] <MootBot> ACTION received:  tfheen to investigate lsb-base bug which breaks when network-manager is removed 
[06:28] <ToddBrandt> Mithrandir: ok, I'll bug him about that
[06:28] <bspencer_> Mithrandir: for network manager, or for everything ?
[06:29] <Mithrandir> bspencer_: in general, but if there's something special, I can upload too
[06:29] <HappyCamp> bspencer_, I think for everything at the moment.  It is so I can become a member of MOTU
[06:29] <asac> Mithrandir: i am not sure if I should sponsor fixes to lsb-base
[06:29] <asac> Mithrandir: nm is fine though :)
[06:29] <HappyCamp> Of couse I just give it to Mithrandir or someone else.
[06:29] <Mithrandir> asac: I'll do it.
[06:29] <asac> good.
[06:29] <Mithrandir> HappyCamp: in the short term, you do.  In the long term, you'll upload yourself.
[06:29] <HappyCamp> right.
[06:30] <Mithrandir> let's move on?
[06:30] <ToddBrandt> k
[06:30] <Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  mobile-image-creation
[06:30] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-image-creation 
[06:30] <Mithrandir> HappyCamp: can you give us a status update?
[06:31] <Mithrandir> also, what's your launchpad user ID?  You should be the assignee, not pkl.
[06:31] <HappyCamp> I have done more bug fixing mainly.
[06:31] <HappyCamp> I think my lp id is: john-l-villalovos
[06:32] <HappyCamp> I haven't had a whole lot of time to work on image-creator this week.  We had some other issues come up this week and it has taken up most of my time :(
[06:32] <bspencer_> images have been broken since last thursday due to nm bug
[06:32] <bspencer_> fsets failed.  But that should work today, I'm guessing
[06:32] <HappyCamp> I did put in the config file changes and they seem to be working.
[06:32] <bspencer_> I've used the ~/.image-creator/image-creator.cfg   -- it works for me
[06:32] <HappyCamp> Expansion of the config file work and much much better error handling is next.
[06:33] <smagoun> HappyCamp: is someone working on the save/restore feature we discussed during the sprint?
[06:33] <HappyCamp> Not yet.  I think there is a bug in bugzilla on it.
[06:33] <HappyCamp> But I did get assigned my very own "minion".  So hopefully I can get him up to speed and we can get some of this stuff cranked out soon.
[06:34] <HappyCamp> smagoun, https://www.moblin.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=97
[06:34] <HappyCamp> I don't really have much more to add on image-creator.  Anyone have questions?
[06:35] <Mithrandir> sounds like things are moving along at a good pace
[06:36] <bspencer_> error handling will be nice
[06:36] <Mithrandir> indeed, all of the wanted features would be nice
[06:36] <bspencer_> esp mine :)
[06:36] <Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  mobile-power-thermal-optimizations
[06:36] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-power-thermal-optimizations 
[06:36] <Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: that one's yours.
[06:37] <Charliefjohnson> Is there anything more to discuss here, the patches were integrated into the kernel.  The blueprint was updated a couple of weeks ago so that the only thing adress was the thermal extension.
[06:38] <Mithrandir> it says "beta available", which usually means there is still work going into it.
[06:38] <Charliefjohnson> I'll take the action to find out if there is going to be any additional updates.  
[06:39] <amitk> Charliefjohnson: What is the schedule to send the patches upstream?
[06:39] <Mithrandir> [ACTION]  Charliefjohnson to investigate updates to mobile-power-thermal-optimizations
[06:39] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Charliefjohnson to investigate updates to mobile-power-thermal-optimizations 
[06:39] <Charliefjohnson> I'll have to check with the guys in India.  I don't have that info close at hand.
[06:40] <Mithrandir> if you could do so and report back, that'd be much appreciated.
[06:41] <Charliefjohnson> OK
[06:41] <Mithrandir> I'd like us to review action items from the last meeting, and get an update on how we ended up deciding to get updates into Ubuntu is actually working.
[06:42] <Mithrandir> anybody got any more agenda items?
[06:42] <Charliefjohnson> Was a UI update sent to the mailing list?
[06:42] <bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: yes
[06:42] <amitk> are there any more kernel patches pending integration?
[06:42] <bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: before 1400 as requested (IIRC)
[06:43] <Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  Action items from last meeting
[06:43] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action items from last meeting 
[06:43] <amitk> Charliefjohnson: Any updates on schedule for 2D DRM drivers?
[06:43] <Mithrandir> bfiller,rusty and bspencer_ were to work out details on how to get event mechanism in mobile-basic-flash work well, in a meaningful way
[06:43] <Charliefjohnson> Can we get the Xterm icon hooked up to xterm ??  It is a pain in the but with no xterm available except by booting to single user mode.
[06:44] <bspencer_> Mithrandir: we had a discussion with bfiller, but the task isn't completed
[06:44] <Mithrandir> bspencer_: ok, so you want it again for the next week too?
[06:44] <Charliefjohnson> The graphics drivers and DRM are all part of the same package.  
[06:44] <agoliveira> Charliefjohnson: Ctrl+Alt+F1? :)
[06:44] <bspencer_> Mithrandir: yes.  we will report next week
[06:44] <Mithrandir> [ACTION]  bfiller, rustyl, bspencer to work out details on how to get event mechanism in mobile-basic-flash work well, in a meaningful way
[06:44] <MootBot> ACTION received:  bfiller, rustyl, bspencer to work out details on how to get event mechanism in mobile-basic-flash work well, in a meaningful way 
[06:45] <Charliefjohnson> agoliveira: has worked for me.  Just hangs my crown beach.
[06:45] <Mithrandir> I have reviewed a few specs and sent them back, so that's an ongoing process, but since it's not complete, I earn an ACTION
[06:45] <Mithrandir> [ACTION]  tfheen to review and approve specs (2)
[06:45] <MootBot> ACTION received:  tfheen to review and approve specs (2) 
[06:45] <agoliveira> Charliefjohnson: Oh... I only have the Q1 and works on it.
[06:45] <Charliefjohnson> agoliveira: probably a driver bug.  
[06:46] <Mithrandir> agoliveira: the psb driver is buggy and switching away from X doesn't work.
[06:46] <Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: though, I agree getting the icon hooked up would be good.
[06:46] <Charliefjohnson> There is an updated 2D driver they we need to test.  It might be worth taking.
[06:46] <Mithrandir> sure, can you coordinate that with Bryce?
[06:47] <patm> Charliefjohnnson, what is new in the updated 2D driver?
[06:47] <Charliefjohnson> Issue: We might have a problem with folks applying patches to the "psb" driver directly in MOBLIN.  
[06:48] <Mithrandir> ok, moving on the next topic then?
[06:48] <Charliefjohnson> The team doing the driver doesn't not participate in MOBLIN.  So patches that go there will cause extra merging since MOBLIN is not the source of the driver.
[06:48] <Mithrandir> HappyCamp: can that be solved by just letting the authorised set of people push to the driver repository?
[06:49] <HappyCamp> Mithrandir, it could, I guess.  If they would want to.  I'm not sure who "they" are.
[06:49] <Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:  It is a bit more complicated than that and become political. :^(
[06:49] <bspencer_> political:  Does this have something to do with the Senator from Idaho?
[06:50] <Charliefjohnson> Internal Intel politics.
[06:50] <Mithrandir> well, we need to make sure that nobody commits to the moblin tree without it coming from the relevant group inside intel, right?
[06:50] <agoliveira> bspencer_: The one that "loves" cops? :-D
[06:50] <bspencer_> :)
[06:50] <Mithrandir> this either means not having the tree there or restricting access somehow.
[06:51] <Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: is it contentious for the people writing the driver to be pushing their updates onto the git tree on moblin.org?
[06:51] <Charliefjohnson> Yes - Any patches for Graphics (2D or DRM) should be sent to me.  I'll work with the team to incorporating the change. 
[06:52] <Mithrandir> so the tree on moblin.org is pointless, then?
[06:53] <Mithrandir> or are you working with an internal git tree which this one is just a branch of?
[06:53] <Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:  For certain components - yes
[06:53] <Mithrandir> which of those questions was that a yes to?
[06:53] <Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:  This is probably an offline discussion.  
[06:53] <Mithrandir> ok, we can cover it on the phone later then?
[06:54] <Mithrandir> then I'd like us to move on to the topic of updates from moblin into Ubuntu
[06:54] <Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  flow of updates from moblin into Ubuntu
[06:54] <MootBot> New Topic:  flow of updates from moblin into Ubuntu 
[06:54] <Mithrandir> we've covered this a couple of times before, and now we've changed the procedure so HappyCamp should become a MOTU relativetly quickly, and I am less of a bottleneck.
[06:55] <Mithrandir> HappyCamp: have you had much experience with the process yet, or has that been hampered by the "other stuff" you mentioned above?
[06:55] <HappyCamp> I've been hampered with the "other stuff" this week.  Hopefully I will be finished with everything today.  And then can get back on the moblin stuff fulltime.
[06:56] <Mithrandir> ok, good.  I'll raise the topic again next week and we can evaluate how the new process is working?
[06:56] <HappyCamp> sounds good.
[06:57] <Mithrandir> anybody got any other business?
[06:58] <agoliveira> I just want to warn that tomorrow is a holiday here so I won't be available.
[06:58] <Charliefjohnson> App List - Long discussion yesterday.
[06:58] <Mithrandir> ah, yes
[06:58] <Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  user applications
[06:58] <MootBot> New Topic:  user applications 
[06:59] <agoliveira> Fine. Charliefjohnson, do you have any specific questions?
[06:59] <bspencer_> just FYI, Peter is Mauri's replacement.  I think some of the discussion is him getting familiar with the application work going on
[06:59] <bspencer_> and the email yesterday was to clarify where best to put additional help and not duplicate adilson's work
[06:59] <agoliveira> bspencer_: Yes, I've traded a few emails about this yesterday.
[06:59] <Charliefjohnson> Peter is the engineering mgr.  Mauri will continue to be the program mgr I thought.
[06:59] <bspencer_> agoliveira: right.  just fyi for those listening
[07:00] <bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: yes, true.
[07:00] <agoliveira> bspencer_: Sure
[07:00] <bspencer_> agoliveira: I'd like to chat with you after this mtg more 
[07:00] <bspencer_> or after lunch if you prefer
[07:00] <Charliefjohnson> The root of the app list email is that Intel mangement wanted a date for when all the apps have been identified.
[07:00] <Mithrandir> just to be clear, engineering manager is roughly what we call technical lead?
[07:00] <agoliveira> bspencer_: Sure. I already lunch so we can do just afetr the meeting.
[07:00] <Charliefjohnson> I think with the latest list.  The only apps not identified are the Games.
[07:00] <bspencer_> Mithrandir: no, he won't be writing code
[07:00] <bspencer_> Mithrandir: more of a director
[07:00] <Mithrandir> ok
[07:01] <agoliveira> Charliefjohnson: Exaclty. I expect to do it next week.
[07:01] <bspencer_> everyone should write one
[07:01] <agoliveira> You can also keep an eye or subscribe to the wiki page. I try to keep it updated,
[07:01] <bspencer_> and we should have a prize for the best game
[07:01] <bspencer_> agoliveira: yes, thanks for keeping that up to date.  I use that page here a lot to remind me what is up.
[07:01] <Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: you suggested a date about two weeks into the future as a deadline for selection of all applications.  That sounds fine to me, at least.
[07:02] <agoliveira> bspencer_: I have several published... for casinos, but it's a game anyway ;)
[07:02] <Charliefjohnson> I have to attend a staff meeting.  So have to bail.  
[07:02] <bspencer_> Mithrandir: I have one more topic:  deadlines for October release and what it means to Ubuntu-mobile
[07:02] <bspencer_> Mithrandir: / everyone:  sorry if we go over :-\
[07:02] <Mithrandir> see you, Charlie.
[07:03] <Mithrandir> ok, so no conclusion on user applications as Charlie had to leave.
[07:03] <agoliveira> BTW, would be great if Peter could attend the meeting too.
[07:03] <Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  deadlines for October release and implications for UME
[07:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  deadlines for October release and implications for UME 
[07:04] <bspencer_> agoliveira: I'll mention that, but I thikn it is rusty and I who will be here usually
[07:04] <bspencer_> agoliveira: and Mauri will attend too (she is on vacation)
[07:04] <agoliveira> bspencer_: At least ;)
[07:05] <bspencer_> Mithrandir: I know there are upcoming deadlines 
[07:05] <bspencer_> and I wanted to clarify what kind of expectations or limitations there would be
[07:05] <bspencer_> one example:  Clutter UI probably gets done end of Sept.  Is it still possible to make it the default UI for Oct ?
[07:05] <Mithrandir> We've been discussing this a fair bit back and forth, both internally and at least with some others.
[07:06] <Mithrandir> and I'd like to make 7.10 also be an developer-targetted alpha
[07:06] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: This is very reasonable
[07:07] <bspencer_> Mithrandir: ok.  Well maybe you could set some dates when changes will be frozen
[07:07] <Mithrandir> I need to sit and look at the calendar for exactly when freezes should be happening.  7.10 happens on october 18th
[07:07] <bspencer_> ok.  Maybe you could share that next week?
[07:08] <Mithrandir> my main problem with making the clutter UI the default is it's going to be useless on menlow hardware until we have 3D support.
[07:08] <Mithrandir> I'll see what I can do, absolutely.
[07:08] <bspencer_> Mithrandir: true.  I have a fallback fro that
[07:08] <bspencer_> s/fro/for
[07:08] <Mithrandir> input is much appreciated too, if anybody has any (strong or otherwise) opinions.
[07:09] <bspencer_> I think a minimum of 2wks should be used for bug fixing only
[07:09] <bspencer_> and we should clairfy the apps and features we expect now
[07:09] <bspencer_> (not now as in this meeting)
[07:09] <bfiller> bspencer_: I'd like to see navigation work alot better too
[07:10] <bspencer_> bfiller: navigation in the home screen or navigation between apps?
[07:10] <bfiller> bspencer_: as in being able to get back to home plugin
[07:10] <Mithrandir> we're kinda running out of time for that to happen, but I'll raise it on the mailing list and based on that, we can decide in the meeting next week?
[07:10] <bfiller> bspencer_: and not relaunching apps if they are running
[07:10] <bspencer_> bfiller: definately.  We will be trying a new idea this week:  jump to home screen instead of drop-deown menu. (like iPhone a little)
[07:11] <bspencer_> and yes, no duplicate apps running
[07:11] <bspencer_> Mithrandir: ok.
[07:11] <Mithrandir> [ACTION]  tfheen to raise scheduling/freezes on mailing list, decision to be taken in next week's meeting
[07:11] <MootBot> ACTION received:  tfheen to raise scheduling/freezes on mailing list, decision to be taken in next week's meeting 
[07:11] <Mithrandir> ok, then I think we're out of agenda items.
[07:12] <HappyCamp>  offtopic: Mithrandir, Has Ubuntu emailed invitiations for UDS yet?
[07:12] <agoliveir1> Sorry... it did drop
[07:12] <bfiller> bspencer_: sounds good. I've played with this a little and used keyboard shortcut to get back home as well
[07:12] <ian_brasil> HappyCamp: yes
[07:12] <bspencer_> bfiller: Alt+D ?
[07:12] <bspencer_> :)
[07:12] <Mithrandir> HappyCamp: argh, no, that's fallen off my list.  It's not meeting thing, so I'll note it on my offline todo list.
[07:12] <HappyCamp> ian_brasil, okay.  Hopefully they went to my manager :)
[07:12] <bfiller> bspencer_: right!
[07:13] <Mithrandir> ian_brasil: no, not really.  Some, but not all.
[07:13] <ian_brasil> ah, ok..sorry
[07:14] <Mithrandir> Before adjourning I'd like to ask everybody to please, please, please remember to post status updates to the list next week as they help keep the meeting somewhat short.  Also, if you would be so kind as to be here on time and not wander in three minutes past, that should make us waste less time.
[07:14] <Mithrandir> thanks everybody, adjourned
[07:14] <Mithrandir> #endmeeting
[07:14] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:05.
[07:15] <bspencer_> agoliveira: 2 mins for chat?
[07:15] <agoliveir1> bspencer_: Sure.
[07:16] <bspencer_> ok.  4 apps listed.  We want to put a couple "spare" guys on a few for a few weeks
[07:16] <kwwii> oops, sorry guys I was at the store and missed the meeting
[07:16] <bspencer_> we'll call it a "surge"
[07:16] <bspencer_> then when peace reigns we'll pull them out
[07:16] <agoliveir1> bspencer_: Fine
[07:16] <bspencer_> kwwii: you lose man
[07:16] <bspencer_> agoliveira: Peter had 4 apps listed, one was GPS/Navigation .l
[07:16] <kwwii> bspencer_: no doubt - i'll new get to test my new theme :-(
[07:16] <bspencer_> s/.1//
[07:17] <bspencer_> kwwii: you could send a status to the mailing list.  That would be interesting for me.  I'll try your theme!
[07:17] <kwwii> bspencer_: did you get my mail about the missing pieces needed to test the theme ?
[07:17] <agoliveir1> bspencer_: That wasn't on the initial specs.
[07:17] <kyleN> kwwii, could you include me in th emailings please? thx
[07:17] <kwwii> bspencer_: it will not install...it seems that our hildon-theme-tools package is missing a couple of parts
[07:17] <kwwii> kyleN: sure, you are on the list right?
[07:18] <bspencer_> agoliveir1: right
[07:18] <bspencer_> agoliveir1:  so no worries.  We'll maybe see if we can find somehting
[07:18] <kyleN> oh, you sent to ubuntu-mobile - I must have missed it
[07:18] <bspencer_> agoliveir1:  Office:  abiword.  Can we help there?
[07:18] <bspencer_> kwwii: just a sec.  I just want to wrap up woth agoliveir1 first
[07:18] <kwwii> kyleN: no, I sent the last email just to bspencer_ because I thought he would know about whether these pieces are missing
[07:18] <kwwii> bspencer_: no problem
[07:19] <agoliveir1> bspencer_: Abiword is just packing, don't worry. Evince would be a good one.
[07:19] <kyleN> cool
[07:19] <agoliveir1> bspencer_: Not too hard too as the interface is simple.
[07:19] <agoliveir1> Another great help would be in simplifying the OpenOffice interface.
[07:20] <bspencer_> agoliveir1: mm... I'm not excited about OO
[07:20] <bspencer_> it is so big
[07:20] <bspencer_> it is like Mozilla x 4
[07:20] <bspencer_> not a mobile app
[07:20] <agoliveir1> bspencer_: Me neither but it's the only option we have now to support all MS docs and this is on the SoW.
[07:21] <bspencer_> agoliveir1:  really?  I'm checking the SOW
[07:21] <agoliveir1> And the rest of the chain food there is asking for it :)
[07:21] <bspencer_> Maybe we should push back alittle.  Mainly we need a ppt app, right?
[07:21] <bspencer_> food chain, not chain food
[07:21] <agoliveir1> Yes.
[07:21] <agoliveir1> From sharks to mcdonalds :)
[07:22] <bspencer_> :)
[07:22] <bspencer_> hold on that then, there were two more apps.
[07:22] <bspencer_> oh, PDF viewer?
[07:22] <bspencer_> and RSS reader
[07:22] <agoliveir1> Yes, evince can handle it.
[07:22] <bspencer_> maybe we could work on Lafeara
[07:23] <bspencer_> is evince PDF?
[07:23] <agoliveir1> Already on my list
[07:23] <bspencer_> which?
[07:23] <agoliveir1> Evince can handle PDF and a lot others.
[07:23] <agoliveir1> bspencer_: On my list - RSS reader I mean.
[07:23] <bspencer_> I know you have a list, but I want to know which apps you are 100% sure you can Hildonize by end of month.
[07:23] <bspencer_> or 80% :)
[07:24] <agoliveir1> bspencer_: It's hard to say but I believe that, not counting things like OO, all of them or almost that.
[07:24] <bspencer_> Are you planning to port Lifeaara (sp)
[07:24] <agoliveir1> bspencer_: Yes.
[07:24] <bspencer_> ok.  We won't do any work there
[07:24] <bspencer_> and evince?
[07:24] <agoliveir1> That too.
[07:24] <bspencer_> k
[07:25] <bspencer_> and rdesktop -- what was the conclusion?
[07:25] <agoliveir1> It will go in the pot too. I was looking at it today BTW.
[07:25] <bspencer_> after using it I like it
[07:25] <bspencer_> because it feels so Windows-y  for those Windows people out there
[07:26] <bspencer_> and it scaled to 1024x600 very gracefully with no work
[07:26] <agoliveir1> bspencer_: I've being hacking on it for almost 3 years so I know a bit or 2 about it ;)
[07:26] <bspencer_> sweet
[07:26] <agoliveir1> bspencer_: The only limitation is the RDP protocol itself.
[07:26] <bspencer_> what about porting the maemo GTK-based VNC application to moblin?   Maybe we can do that
[07:27] <agoliveir1> and what we can reverse-engineer from it... which brings me the case of legal that you're afraid...
[07:27] <bspencer_> (in addition, on the side)
[07:27] <agoliveir1> I woudn't care about vnc now as it requires a server to work on windows and it's much more limited.
[07:27] <bspencer_> ah, RDP for rdesktop is reverse engineered and not fully in the clear.
[07:27] <agoliveir1> bspencer_: Right.
[07:28] <agoliveir1> The RDP spec published does not work on MS implementation.
[07:29] <bspencer_> agoliveira: ok
[07:30] <bspencer_> agoliveira: have you triued it with vista?
[07:30] <bspencer_> (I only tried with XP)
[07:30] <bspencer_> I assume nothing changed.  just wondered.
[07:30] <agoliveira> bspencer_: No, I don't have a vista capable of work as server but should work while they don't push RDP to version 6.
[07:30] <bspencer_> ok.
[07:31] <bspencer_> so are there any othre important apps (besides OO or ppt equivalent) that you would like short-term help with?
[07:31] <agoliveira> Even so you can aways work on RDP 5 and miss a few things like seamless windows.
[07:32] <agoliveira> bspencer_: Well, all help you could lend would be great but for now I guess that's it.
[07:32] <bspencer_> agoliveira: gnumeric -- you can get that ported by end of Sept too ?  :)
[07:32] <agoliveira> bspencer_: Same as abiword. No problem.
[07:32] <bspencer_> agoliveira: you da man
[07:33] <agoliveira> bspencer_: Tell that to my boos when my next review comes :)
[07:33] <agoliveira> s/boos/boss
[07:33] <bspencer_> I tell your boos anytime
[07:33] <bspencer_> you bring the boos, I'll tell it you're great
[07:34] <bspencer_> agoliveira: ok.  thanks.
[07:34] <agoliveira> bspencer_: My pleasure.
[07:34] <agoliveira> Let me know when you can provide any help so I can sync the efforts and avoid duplication.
[07:35] <bspencer_> agoliveira: well, aside from OO and GPS I didn't see you needing any help
[07:35] <bspencer_> so I won't be providing any
[07:36] <agoliveira> bspencer_: It's a matter of time. If you want faster...
[07:36] <bspencer_> right, I understand
[07:36] <agoliveira> Cool.
[07:36] <kyleN> hey agoliveria, question?
[07:37] <kyleN> typo in name notwithstanding ;)
[07:37] <agoliveira> kyleN: Sure, if I can help...
[07:37] <kyleN> it is about help, as a matter of fact
[07:38] <kyleN> I am wondering in general what thought has been given to help in ume, with respect to apps and the system
[07:38] <kyleN> is the ubuntu model going to be used?  (yelp and etc.)
[07:38] <kyleN> are all apps following that model? 
[07:38] <agoliveira> Well, to tell you the truth, I didn't think about it.
[07:39] <kwwii> bspencer_: quick chat about the themeing?
[07:39] <kyleN> I think Yelp looks good.
[07:39] <agoliveira> and I guess we won't have time to mess with that right now so it goes down the line :)
[07:39] <kyleN> but, what about apps? is there a standard that they need to know about to fit into the system?
[07:39] <kyleN> down the line is farther away for some folks than others ;)
[07:40] <agoliveira> kyleN: In general, if the applciation uses hildon the right way, they fit the interface but there's a few things like dbus messaging that will probably need more hacking later.
[07:40] <kyleN> does hildon support a help framework?
[07:41] <agoliveira> kyleN: Beats me, sorry. Never looked at it.
[07:41] <kwwii> kyleN: it is based on xml with an xslt stylesheet and a utility to install it in the system
[07:41] <kyleN> yes, I know how Yelp works
[07:41] <kyleN> thx
[07:42] <kyleN> I think UME should decide to use it and state it as THE requirement for help
[07:42] <kwwii> kyleN: yes, I agree
[07:43] <agoliveira> kyleN: I suggest you send this to the ML so we can open a discussion about it.
[07:43] <kyleN> and, at the risk of sounding shrill, I think the sooner this decision (or some decision) is taken, thebetter
[07:43] <kyleN> OK, I'll do that
[07:43] <kwwii> bspencer_: so as far as the themeing goes, I figured out how to create a theme about 8 hours before the documentation came out.
[07:44] <kwwii> kyleN: for themeing we will probably need to add a bit of specific info on top of the stuff already online
[07:44] <kyleN> kwii, cool. does it handle the points in the spec?
[07:44] <kwwii> bspencer_: but after building a theme it fails to install because we are missing "hildon-theme-cacher" which is apparently in the hildon-theme-tools package (but not our version)
[07:45] <kwwii> kyleN: yes, it handles them in a pretty basic way
[07:45] <ian_brasil> kyleN: i agree
[07:45] <kwwii> kyleN: it does not say what each pic does exactly so we might want to add a bit more 
[07:45] <kyleN> i noticed the outliner tool helps designer know where to put images
[07:46] <kwwii> kyleN: yes, that helps quite a lot in creating a theme actually
[07:46] <kyleN> kwwii, yes, I think the theme sdk is a great idea
[07:46] <kwwii> but the colors stuff, for instance, is quite spooky
[07:46] <kyleN> that will help them try out themes and find out what happens
[07:46] <kwwii> there are a lot of names and I still have little idea exactly what each one does
[07:47] <kyleN> kwii, that's the difficult part.
[07:47] <kyleN> I did make a list of the main image files used today
[07:47] <kwwii> I would like to add a sentence about each color-name and perhaps a screenshot of where exactly that color is used
[07:48] <kwwii> kyleN: cool
[07:48] <kyleN> it includes everythign on the marquee and on marquee menus and submenus, but not icons
[07:48] <kwwii> the most important thing at this point would be to enable theme switching in our current stuff
[07:49] <kyleN> kwwii: yes, theme switching is important
[07:49] <kwwii> kyleN: yeah, the icons are going to be a lot of work as well...it is more down to experience than anything else at this point
[07:49] <kyleN> I think a document specifying what themeing is and isn't would be really helpful
[07:49] <kwwii> kyleN: yeah, I pretty much stopped working on it because it is unrealistic to continually manually copy over all the pics and files in a running system
[07:50] <kyleN> kwwii, do they have to be copied, or could te system just look in the new directory?
[07:51] <kwwii> if we had everything working right it would/should be able to simply create new directories in the right places and allow one to switch back and forth
[07:51] <kwwii> as things are now we cannot even install a new theme without doing it by hand
[07:51] <kyleN> yes, that's definitely the goal
[07:51] <kyleN> well, it's great that work is going on in this area. I know it's a tedious area
[07:52] <kwwii> I guess bspencer_ would know more about what we need to do to get that working though
[07:52] <kyleN> I think we need a high level plan with milestones and etc 
[07:53] <kwwii> at this point, the plan would be to get the theme-switching working and then to document all the pieces...after that we can document the process for including a theme in a default setup
[07:53] <kyleN> getting it working for theme designer pre-build is probably the highest priority
[07:53] <kyleN> we said opposite things ;)
[07:54] <Mithrandir> kyleN: for help, would you be willing to spearhead that?
[07:54] <kyleN> sure M.
[07:54] <kwwii> the thing is that without the theme-switching capability it is almost impossible to really test a theme otherwise you would have to rebuild the whole system after replacing all the pics and config files in the source
[07:54] <kwwii> and I really need to be able to test things to figure out how it all fits together
[07:54] <Mithrandir> kyleN: great.  Could you add a blueprint to launchpad and make ubuntu-mobile the approver and then start by writing a spec for it?
[07:55] <Mithrandir> (there's a SpecTemplate on the wiki, so base your spec off that)
[07:55] <kyleN> kwwii, is that true? couldn't you just put the new files in a target and relaunch in xephyr?
[07:55] <kwwii> kyleN: yes but that is a big waste of time
[07:55] <kyleN> ok, but it tests/exercises slicer, outliner, in other words, the tools the third party theme designer would need to use
[07:56] <kyleN> Mithrandir, yes
[07:56] <kwwii> for the colors for instance, you have to change one color at a time and then test it...perhaps switching back to the old version to see how it worked
[07:56] <kwwii> kyleN: yepp, the tools to create the theme work great and pretty straight forward
[07:56] <kwwii> that part is done, really (thanks nokia!)
[07:57] <kyleN> ok. do we have a clear "App API" for icon themeing yet?
[07:57] <kwwii> kyleN: not sure I get what you mean by app api
[07:57] <kwwii> I do not think that there are any documents which explain what each icon does specifically and where it will appear
[07:57] <kyleN> a clear description of how a UME application usees themeable icons - where they go and don't go, etc
[07:58] <kyleN> not what each icon does, but how to write an app that whose icons are themeable 
[07:58] <kwwii> the xdg stuff lists some icons and explains them in decent context but that is only a few of the many icons in the system
[07:59] <kwwii> kyleN: ahh, now I see...not sure if that exists or not..I would guess that it simply comes from the gtk code and not something app-specific
[07:59] <kyleN> I  might not understand, but I am not talking about what each icon does
[08:00] <kwwii> each app might add special icons, of course
[08:00] <kyleN> yes: as in a wiki page that specifies UME requirements for applications with respect to themeable icons
[08:00] <kwwii> you will probably also find that many apps simply use icons that some developer picked at random 
[08:00] <kyleN> yes, and those special icons, to be themable, should go somewhere and not somewhere else, right? 
[08:00] <kyleN> let's say we get user-settable themes really working
[08:01] <kwwii> yes, the places for icons are very well defined
[08:01] <kyleN> ok.
[08:01] <kyleN> usr/share/icons/(theme)... I suppose
[08:02] <kyleN> anyway, I'll shut up now ;)
[08:02] <kyleN> (gotta go eat - cheers)
[08:02] <kwwii> yes, exactly
[08:02] <kwwii> cheers
[08:17] <bspencer_> kwwii: ok.  sorry I stepped away
[08:17] <bspencer_> kwwii: does someone own getting hildon-theme-cacher updated?
[08:34] <alek_in_AG1> bspencer_, how about no lunch too ?
[09:05] <kwwii> bspencer_: I think that it is part of hildon-theme-tools package
[09:07] <bspencer_> kwwii: yeah.  do you know what is broken?
[09:07] <bspencer_> we have that package 
[09:08] <kwwii> bspencer_: in our package there does not appear to be the hildon-theme-cacher part - as far as I can tell it is simply missing
[09:10] <bspencer_> yeah, I don't see it
[10:03] <agoliveira> Gentleman, tomorrow is our Independence Day here in Brazil which I'll celebrate sleeping until it hurts (I won this right parading on the streets during the military dictatorship times) so, Im' leaving right on cue and I bid you farewell!
[10:03] <kwwii> agoliveira: have a lot of fun :-)
[10:04] <agoliveira> kwwii: I will dream about it :) Bye!
[10:08] <lucasr> yo
[10:33] <bspencer_> lucasr: ping -- I had a question about configuration files in hildon-desktop
[10:42] <benj3one> Is anyone here experimenting with ARM port yet?
[11:01] <benj3one> I am settling for windows mobile5 on my motoQ at the moment, and it's making me cry :-(