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sistpoty | hi | 02:09 |
---|---|---|
ajmitch | hi | 02:09 |
geser | Hi | 02:09 |
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ajmitch | not many here today | 02:09 |
TheMuso | eeek | 02:09 |
=== TheMuso will do minutes/announcements | ||
TheMuso | Got so wrapped up in my own work. | 02:10 |
sistpoty | sorry for being late | 02:10 |
TheMuso | I haven't missed anything I hope | 02:10 |
ajmitch | TheMuso: iff we have something to talk about | 02:10 |
ajmitch | sistpoty: you were first to speak up ;) | 02:10 |
geser | TheMuso: you only missed some people saying hi | 02:10 |
TheMuso | heh right. | 02:10 |
sistpoty | ajmitch: but I'm drunk already, so I don't count ;) | 02:10 |
superm1 | hasn't even started yet :) | 02:10 |
TheMuso | Well, my offer for minutes/announcements stands. | 02:11 |
ajmitch | haha | 02:11 |
sistpoty | (nvidia stuff gave me the rest, couldn't do this w.o. booze *g*) | 02:11 |
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TheMuso | heh | 02:12 |
ajmitch | agenda page just has motu sru process | 02:12 |
TheMuso | Who added it? | 02:13 |
ajmitch | no info | 02:13 |
TheMuso | So I can now see. | 02:14 |
ajmitch | ah, blame superm1 | 02:14 |
TheMuso | Well no point talking about it if there aren't many here, as it does affect a lot of us, and if the original person who proposed it can't explain it, well theres no point... | 02:14 |
superm1 | well i'm here | 02:14 |
sistpoty | ok, subsection two: motu-sru still needed: being (still) a member, this was abandoned quite some time ago. | 02:14 |
superm1 | just lots of latency | 02:14 |
sistpoty | so motu-sru is neither needed, nor should be assigned/subscribed any bugs to | 02:15 |
TheMuso | I personally think we need more MOTUs at the meeting before this goes under the knife again. | 02:15 |
superm1 | well the big thing i wanted to discuss with it was the role of archive admins | 02:16 |
geser | is there still some documentation left refering to motu-sru? | 02:16 |
superm1 | becuase they have no idea what needs to be done | 02:16 |
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sistpoty | superm1: do you think SRU's have got out of control? | 02:17 |
sistpoty | (as I'm not knowing anything about how much, nor how SRUs are done nowadays) | 02:17 |
superm1 | sistpoty, not that they got out of control, but i had to file one for mythtv for edgy and feisty just last week | 02:18 |
superm1 | and ended up having lots of troubles | 02:18 |
superm1 | because people i discussed it with were confused by the process | 02:18 |
superm1 | both Ridell and seb128 weren't positive about their role | 02:18 |
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sistpoty | ok, knowing still knowing about the discussion around the new policy, maybe I should explain: | 02:19 |
sistpoty | since SRUs came with some delay (from -sru and from -archive) for hitting -proposed and later -updates, we decided to lower the barrier to -proposed | 02:20 |
sistpoty | also we decided that any motu could upload directly to -proposed (which -archive should intervene only if the version number was flawed, because removing from -proposed wasn't implemented in LP yet) | 02:21 |
superm1 | so then they really have no say other than version number | 02:22 |
superm1 | and its up to a MOTU to decide if it should really be going into -proposed | 02:22 |
sistpoty | yes. to keep the barrier to -proposed as simple as possible | 02:22 |
geser | yes, they should only check if the version is sane to be copied later to -updates | 02:23 |
sistpoty | however to get a package into -updates, the testing (as still described in the SRU page iirc) needs to be done. | 02:23 |
superm1 | now its not clear whether the acks need to be MOTUs, or just general users testing -proposed count too then | 02:23 |
sistpoty | any ack countes | 02:23 |
sistpoty | -e | 02:24 |
superm1 | okay that makes it a lot easier | 02:24 |
superm1 | the min 7 day barrier to -updates, that's off the latest upload, or if there was a small fix to a proposed update, from the first upload | 02:24 |
ajmitch | getting that many motus to ack was too hard | 02:24 |
superm1 | yea that's what i was realizing | 02:25 |
sistpoty | superm1: off the latest upload. Because this period is meant that the exact packages to end up in -updates later should get tested | 02:25 |
superm1 | okay. | 02:26 |
sistpoty | however, the archive team will still do a sanity check for the proposed->updates migration (they did this anyways w. or w.o. -sru in the past). So finally they can decide on wether an update is fit for -updates or not | 02:27 |
superm1 | now when its copied to -updates, can archive admins knock the ~proposed1 off an upload version number, or should it be the exact version number intended for -updates later? | 02:27 |
sistpoty | that's a good question, since syncing a package from one pocket to another is possible now. anyone got a clue? | 02:28 |
ajmitch | I think it's meant to have the version without ~proposed1 | 02:29 |
ajmitch | but I may be wrong | 02:29 |
ajmitch | since that wouldn't allow multiple testing uploads | 02:29 |
sistpoty | ajmitch: but that would affect the upload to -proposed already? | 02:29 |
superm1 | keescook had thought that perhaps appending a .1 like security updates would be a safer way to go | 02:30 |
superm1 | that way more updates can be popped in | 02:30 |
geser | you upload to -proposed with the version which will end in -updates | 02:30 |
superm1 | without needing to add stuff like ~proposedX | 02:30 |
geser | exactly, -0ubuntu1.1 as version and uploaded to -proposed | 02:31 |
sistpoty | might this clash with possible security update versions? | 02:31 |
geser | shouldn't further security updates base on the -updates packages? | 02:32 |
sistpoty | not necessarily | 02:32 |
superm1 | and assuminingly the SRU would be based off security updates if they are out? | 02:32 |
geser | it wouldn't be good if bugs come back because of a security issue | 02:32 |
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geser | IMHO a package uploaded to -security or -updates should have all the previous changes from -security or -updates | 02:34 |
sistpoty | hm.. likewise it might be bad if a security update would fix also (lesser important) stuff and thus have a higher risk to break stuff | 02:34 |
geser | isn't -updates activated by default, so people already have fixes | 02:35 |
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sistpoty | not for universe (is security for universe enabled by default?) | 02:36 |
sistpoty | at least iirc | 02:36 |
geser | it would be bad to prepare a new SRU for every security update because the changes from -updates got lost | 02:36 |
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sistpoty | right | 02:36 |
sistpoty | how about holding this particular item back and waiting for a clarification from the security team? | 02:37 |
superm1 | well it would be bad too though if you have to decide between a new feature or issue in the SRU or a security resolution in the security update | 02:37 |
nixternal | oi! | 02:37 |
ajmitch | nixternal! | 02:37 |
sistpoty | hey nixternal | 02:37 |
nixternal | wasabi you funky MOTUs | 02:37 |
nixternal | oh, dholbacks first day on the job and he is hiding :p | 02:38 |
=== sistpoty looks innocent | ||
nixternal | hehe | 02:38 |
superm1 | sistpoty yea i think thats a good idea | 02:39 |
sistpoty | however, back to business | 02:39 |
superm1 | we can bring that discussion on to -devel mailing list probably | 02:39 |
sistpoty | ok, anyone who wants to mail pitti/keescook for a clarification and report back to the motu ml? | 02:39 |
sistpoty | superm1: or that | 02:39 |
sistpoty | superm1: would you tackle that? | 02:39 |
superm1 | sistpoty sure, i'll shoot a mail out tomorrow for it | 02:40 |
sistpoty | great, thanks! | 02:40 |
sistpoty | ok, what else of the SRU policy needs discussion? | 02:40 |
superm1 | well the motu-sru team | 02:41 |
superm1 | do we need them still? | 02:41 |
ajmitch | no, and it's been gone for awhile | 02:41 |
superm1 | k easy enough. Now when its ready to go to -updates, should we just ping an archive admin, or more specifically what would that process be then? | 02:42 |
=== nixternal hopes that this will all eventually be documented nicely on the wiki | ||
geser | when you have the needed testing done, add a commen stating it and subscribe u-a | 02:43 |
superm1 | ok. | 02:43 |
=== sistpoty just left -sru, after finding the link :) | ||
geser | and add the verfication-done tag (or similar) | 02:43 |
superm1 | well i think thats it then for the SRU process, everything I found on it to be confused is resolved here | 02:44 |
TheMuso | Ok... SO what has been changed/clarrified | 02:44 |
sistpoty | no more -sru team, upload only to -proposed, testing as in wiki, after testing done add tag and subscribe -archive again (no more uploading). anything else? | 02:45 |
superm1 | 1) no more motu-sru team | 02:45 |
sistpoty | sorry ;) | 02:45 |
superm1 | 2) archive admins don't check *anything* more than version when going to -proposed | 02:46 |
superm1 | 3) subscribe -archive, and then they can do more throughout checks | 02:46 |
superm1 | 4) version numbers shouldn't have ~proposed1, but we still need to check about conflicting security updates | 02:46 |
superm1 | 5) any person can comment that "works for them" not just motu | 02:46 |
TheMuso | And I am guessing someone will update wiki docs? | 02:47 |
superm1 | 6) +1's have to be from latest upload, and the 7 day ticker starts over | 02:47 |
superm1 | TheMuso, if you send this out in minutes, i can update the wiki tomorrow when i get home | 02:47 |
=== nixternal points at MootBot -> we should be using this to track this meeting | ||
TheMuso | superm1: Ok. | 02:47 |
sistpoty | thanks a lot superm1! | 02:47 |
ajmitch | nixternal: too technical for us | 02:47 |
nixternal | lol | 02:47 |
ajmitch | great, any further business? | 02:47 |
nixternal | #startmeeting | 02:47 |
MootBot | Meeting started at 00:38. The chair is nixternal. | 02:47 |
MootBot | Commands Available: [TOPIC] , [IDEA] , [ACTION] , [AGREED] , [LINK] , [VOTE] | 02:47 |
ajmitch | Q&A/hug days? | 02:48 |
TheMuso | Yeah. What can we do to get more people to metings. | 02:48 |
nixternal | #endmeeting | 02:48 |
MootBot | Meeting finished at 00:38. | 02:48 |
nixternal | how hard is that? | 02:48 |
ajmitch | TheMuso: I would have thought that more people from .au would have been awake | 02:48 |
TheMuso | ajmitch: They are, but people don't always sit on the comp first thing in the morning. :) | 02:48 |
TheMuso | Mind you, it is wet in this part of Au. | 02:48 |
sistpoty | nixternal: for someone who is not enlighted, it's like asking ubotu aboute UVFE and then in plain text again ;) | 02:48 |
ajmitch | it started at 10am for you! that's not first thing :) | 02:49 |
nixternal | lol | 02:49 |
=== Fujitsu pokes his head in, and notes he forgot, because the last reminder was some 8 days ago. | ||
TheMuso | Fujitsu: Well how soon should the second reminder be? | 02:49 |
TheMuso | ...or maybe a third is needed. | 02:49 |
Fujitsu | It was 5 days after the announcement this time. It should probably at least be closer to the day than announcement. | 02:50 |
TheMuso | ok. | 02:50 |
Fujitsu | But I've no idea how far before it should actually be. | 02:50 |
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TheMuso | but its been at various times in the pats, yet we still don't get a lot of regular attendees to the meetings. | 02:51 |
ajmitch | noone cares enough | 02:51 |
TheMuso | ajmitch: How can we change that? | 02:51 |
=== sistpoty must admit that sistpoty was only there occasionally | ||
ajmitch | probably because we often don't have much to talk about | 02:51 |
superm1 | maybe we should give out karma to those that show up :) | 02:52 |
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sistpoty | maybe explicitely invite hopefuls as well? | 02:52 |
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TheMuso | I dunno... But I wonder if we can't still do something to get more people here... | 02:52 |
TheMuso | sistpoty: Thats what I was thinking. | 02:52 |
sistpoty | and maybe have new hopefuls introduce themselves during meeting time, to make them feeling more rooted in the motu world | 02:53 |
sistpoty | (which of course might take precious discussion time= | 02:53 |
geser | TheMuso: is the time ok for those in .au/.nz or should it be moved further into the .au day? | 02:53 |
TheMuso | But if we have little to talk about... | 02:53 |
TheMuso | geser: I can't comment on that, as I'm usually always here on Sat mornings anyway. | 02:54 |
TheMuso | So I am somewhat different from the norm. | 02:54 |
sistpoty | TheMuso: right, I wanted to quote precious actually, but fingers were faster than brain | 02:54 |
TheMuso | heh | 02:54 |
geser | my impression is that meetings on 12:00 UTC are more visited than those at 0:00 UTC | 02:54 |
TheMuso | geser: Right. | 02:55 |
geser | would perhaps an other time rotation scheme work better? | 02:55 |
TheMuso | geser: Thats the thing. This scheme works for those who attend, which means its always at similar times. | 02:56 |
sistpoty | what's the current scheme? +/- 12? | 02:56 |
TheMuso | With more people attending, we can get a wider view of what suits people. | 02:56 |
TheMuso | sistpoty: Yes, on Fridays. | 02:56 |
TheMuso | WHich I wonder if people would rather it be another day. | 02:56 |
geser | sistpoty: yes, 12 UTC and 0 UTC | 02:56 |
sistpoty | maybe a rotation based on +/(-) 8 would be better? not too sure though | 02:57 |
geser | sistpoty: 12UTC +/- 8 or 0 UTC +/- 8? | 02:58 |
TheMuso | Well as I said, we need others to attend, otherwise the usuals get to set the time to something that suits them. | 02:58 |
sistpoty | geser: no preference really. was just a stupid idea | 02:58 |
TheMuso | Does anybody think a topic on the ml about this is worth trying? | 02:59 |
TheMuso | I'd be happy to post it. | 02:59 |
sistpoty | TheMuso: not too sure if conclusions will result from it, but I'd definitely think its worth trying. | 02:59 |
geser | let's try it, it can't get much worser with attendings | 03:00 |
TheMuso | Ok, will do that later today. | 03:00 |
TheMuso | So, I guess we get onto our fixed topics... | 03:01 |
TheMuso | Unless anybody else has something to say/other business... | 03:01 |
DktrKranz | could I ask you something about sru process? | 03:01 |
sistpoty | DktrKranz: sure, just go ahead | 03:02 |
geser | DktrKranz: ask | 03:02 |
DktrKranz | thanks | 03:02 |
DktrKranz | how sponsors manage sru requests? sometimes it's hard to verify them | 03:02 |
DktrKranz | either they don't have requisites to verify or simply they don't have a specific version | 03:03 |
DktrKranz | sometimes a request lies in the queue for a long time, proably because of that | 03:03 |
DktrKranz | is there any plan/discussion to improve the process? | 03:04 |
sistpoty | hm... to anyone who sponsors packages, where do you think is the difficulty in sponsoring SRUs and how could this be improved? | 03:05 |
sistpoty | damn, from MC I'm so used to ask questions *g* | 03:05 |
ajmitch | you do it so well ;) | 03:05 |
sistpoty | thx | 03:05 |
ajmitch | thought of a career in journalism? :) | 03:06 |
=== ajmitch hasn't been sponsoring lately, so can't really answer this one | ||
sistpoty | not really, I'm quite good at coding unfortunately ;) | 03:06 |
sistpoty | hm... how long is the sponsoring queue nowadays actually? | 03:07 |
geser | I wouldn't be confident to sponsor a SRU I couldn't check or where I'm not sure if the patch is correct (when I can't check it) | 03:07 |
TheMuso | I still think a lot of MOTUs are uncomfortable with SRUs, and I'm not affraid to admit I'm one of them. | 03:07 |
Fujitsu | I've done several SRUs, but only where I have been involved from the start | 03:08 |
geser | I don't know how many MOTUs changed already to gutsy which makes SRU checking a little bit harder | 03:08 |
TheMuso | Mind you, once the SRU stuff discussed earlier is documented, I'll be more enclined to help with them. | 03:10 |
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sistpoty | do you think a separate SRU-sponsoring team would help? | 03:12 |
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=== Fujitsu recalls the good old days of about a year ago, when he was trying to perform a SRU, but there was no policy. | ||
TheMuso | sistpoty: No, I just think we really need to ensure we are all comfortable with the procedure. | 03:13 |
TheMuso | I certainly am willing to help once I know what I'm doing. | 03:13 |
sistpoty | right, good point | 03:14 |
sistpoty | actually I was thinking of transferring responsibility to contributors. This means a SRU-sponsorship team would only need to look at diffs and give thumbs up/down. However if s.th. goes wrong the team would need to make sure that it will fire up an update ASAP. But I guess that's nothing but what motu-sru was for MOTUs in the past | 03:16 |
sistpoty | (or rather should have been ;) | 03:16 |
sistpoty | but TheMuso's point still stands | 03:17 |
Fujitsu | I think SRUs need to have a MOTU associated, as there is some kind of reliability implicit in MOTUship. MOTUs aren't likely to vanish, whereas contributors regularly do. | 03:17 |
TheMuso | sistpoty IMO anybody can look at a diff and say yay or nay. Its the procedure that people aren't easy with. | 03:17 |
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TheMuso | Thats why we are so quick to do gutsy work, as there is almost never any red tape. | 03:18 |
TheMuso | Thats how I see it anyway. | 03:19 |
=== Fujitsu agrees with TheMuso. | ||
sistpoty | right, so let's hope that communicating how the process works will get improvement. We can still discuss it if it doesn't, agreed? ;) | 03:19 |
TheMuso | Agreed. | 03:19 |
=== superm1 agrees | ||
superm1 | and now that i understand the process correctly, i'll be glad to work with other contributors that want to get an SRU through | 03:20 |
TheMuso | Yeah, I'l;l be the same once I can digest a doc. :) | 03:20 |
=== DktrKranz believes he will ping superm1 soon :) | ||
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TheMuso | So... Shall we move onto deciding times for next meeting etc? | 03:23 |
sistpoty | yes, please | 03:24 |
TheMuso | I'll let others decide, as I can generally make them | 03:24 |
TheMuso | Don't chime in all at once... :) | 03:26 |
TheMuso | Two weeks from now? | 03:26 |
geser | sounds good | 03:26 |
TheMuso | 12:00 UTC? | 03:26 |
=== Fujitsu should be there, if he remembers. | ||
TheMuso | Fujitsu: I'll attempt to do better with the announcements. | 03:27 |
Fujitsu | TheMuso: I should have remembered anyway, but that would be good, thanks. | 03:28 |
TheMuso | anybody else speak up now, or twill be set in stone... | 03:29 |
=== Fujitsu engraves it into the stone. | ||
TheMuso | Fujitsu: Yep, sounds good. | 03:31 |
TheMuso | do universe hug days even happen? | 03:31 |
Fujitsu | Unfortunately not, it seems. | 03:31 |
TheMuso | Well, I say we leave it TBA. | 03:31 |
TheMuso | revu is off till next cycle. | 03:32 |
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TheMuso | Did dholbach end up holding any more Q&A sessions? | 03:32 |
TheMuso | Or anybody else? | 03:32 |
superm1 | well there is a MOTU/LP PPA session that will be going on soon | 03:33 |
superm1 | that should be mentioned | 03:33 |
superm1 | as soon as the date is determined | 03:33 |
TheMuso | superm1: Will do. Do we have a date/time for that? | 03:33 |
TheMuso | ah ok | 03:33 |
TheMuso | Alrighty... I think we can say this meeting is closed... | 03:35 |
Fujitsu | Closed/disintegrated, but yes. | 03:36 |
sistpoty | thanks everyone! | 03:36 |
superm1 | indeed glad to settle $things, night all | 03:36 |
=== geser moves to bed now, it's nearly 4 am here | ||
TheMuso | Minutes will hopefully be in the next 24/48 hours. | 03:37 |
Fujitsu | Thanks TheMuso. | 03:37 |
TheMuso | np | 03:37 |
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DktrKranz | thanks for the answers, see you :) | 03:38 |
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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Sep 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 10 Sep 19:00 UTC: Screencast Team | 11 Sep 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | ||
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Balkhog | @now | 06:18 |
ubotu | Current time in Etc/UTC: September 08 2007, 04:18:52 - Next meeting: Xubuntu Developers in 12 hours 41 minutes | 06:18 |
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elfreiant | c quan on ligne | 04:43 |
elfreiant | ???? svp | 04:43 |
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Meyvn | @schedule | 05:08 |
ubotu | Schedule for Etc/UTC: 08 Sep 17:00: Xubuntu Developers | 10 Sep 19:00: Screencast Team | 11 Sep 15:00: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 19:00: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00: Edubuntu | 18 Sep 15:00: Kernel Team | 05:08 |
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mr_pouit | @schedule Paris | 06:04 |
ubotu | Schedule for Europe/Paris: 08 Sep 19:00: Xubuntu Developers | 10 Sep 21:00: Screencast Team | 11 Sep 17:00: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 21:00: Technical Board | 12 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 18 Sep 17:00: Kernel Team | 06:04 |
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somerville32 | Heya | 06:49 |
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu Developers | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Sep 19:00 UTC: Screencast Team | 11 Sep 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | ||
janimo | somerville32: hey | 06:53 |
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janimo | jeromeg: hi | 06:54 |
jeromeg | hello | 06:54 |
janimo | jeromeg: nice work on bug triaging | 06:55 |
jeromeg | janimo : no problem :) | 06:55 |
jeromeg | janimo: don't forget to thank mr_pouit for all uploads fixing the bugs ;) | 06:56 |
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janimo | jeromeg: I have talked to him several times alreday. but I meet you for the first time :) | 06:57 |
jeromeg | pleasure | 06:57 |
jeromeg | i won't be so involved in the next few months | 06:57 |
jeromeg | school... | 06:58 |
somerville32 | Once I get things sorted out with my life, I'll be as active as I was pre-hospital. | 07:00 |
janimo | ok shall we start? | 07:01 |
janimo | is anyone besides Cody and Jerome here for the xubuntu meeting? | 07:01 |
Balkhog | @now | 07:04 |
ubotu | Current time in Etc/UTC: September 08 2007, 17:04:06 - Current meeting: Xubuntu Developers | 07:04 |
jeromeg | janimo : I might have to go in a few minutes | 07:04 |
janimo | somerville32, jeromeg: I guess we'll talk among ourselves | 07:04 |
janimo | jeromeg: nooone here regarding teh website | 07:04 |
jeromeg | may I sumerize what I have to say ? | 07:04 |
janimo | jeromeg: please do | 07:04 |
jeromeg | ok | 07:04 |
jeromeg | I think that during this release a good improvement has been made, long standing bugs have been fixed | 07:05 |
jeromeg | for example the non translated session quit dialog | 07:05 |
jeromeg | I've noticed with mr_pouit that xfce upstream is very reactive | 07:06 |
jeromeg | particuraly the thunar dev | 07:06 |
jeromeg | often solving crasher bugs in one day | 07:06 |
janimo | jeromeg: reactive? you mean you had good collaboration during gutsy with them? | 07:06 |
mr_pouit | hi (sorry for being late) | 07:06 |
janimo | hi Lionel | 07:06 |
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jeromeg | janimo: yep very good I think | 07:06 |
janimo | jeromeg: good | 07:06 |
jeromeg | we have been solving crashing bugs in thunar, panel | 07:07 |
jeromeg | very quickly | 07:07 |
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu Developers | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Sep 19:00 UTC: Screencast Team | 11 Sep 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Canonical Desktop Team | ||
jeromeg | compared with gnome dev for example | 07:07 |
janimo | how is the number of new bugs vs the closed ones | 07:07 |
jeromeg | well I think we have closed a lot | 07:07 |
janimo | jeromeg: what example can you give of a gnome dev | 07:07 |
janimo | jeromeg: that you compare with | 07:07 |
jeromeg | nautilus for example | 07:07 |
jeromeg | they don't even answer | 07:08 |
mr_pouit | no so many new bugs | 07:08 |
mr_pouit | *not | 07:08 |
jeromeg | second point, but I think it will change now with automatic apport | 07:08 |
janimo | probbaly they have a lot of duplicate bug they're among the top apps in gnome bugzilla | 07:08 |
mr_pouit | but I am afraid that's because there are very few testers :/ | 07:08 |
jeromeg | there are a lot of non reported bugs | 07:08 |
jeromeg | yep that's what I was going to tell | 07:09 |
jeromeg | just one example : it took 4 tribes release to notice that panels were crashing when you removed one | 07:09 |
janimo | are there any fixes in what will be upstream xfce4 4.2.2 that are important to us? | 07:09 |
janimo | jeromeg: indeed we have very poor and uncoordonated testiong | 07:10 |
jeromeg | janimo : I must say that a lot of "bug" are resulting of the ton of patches we have | 07:10 |
janimo | jeromeg: for instance? | 07:10 |
jeromeg | we diverge too much from upstream | 07:10 |
jeromeg | janimo : for example the mounting features of exo-mount/gnome-mount | 07:11 |
mr_pouit | janimo: the most important (xfwm4 & panel bugs with gtk 2.11.6) are already in the packages | 07:11 |
jeromeg | it's a pain in the ass to report bugs to upstream concerning this | 07:11 |
janimo | jeromeg: that will stay that way until exo is as good as gnome mount for us | 07:11 |
jeromeg | we never now if it's our fault or upstream's | 07:11 |
janimo | jeromeg: well bugs which arespecific to us should not be reported | 07:12 |
janimo | but this is the same situataion with gnome ubuntu | 07:12 |
janimo | we have very little patches actually | 07:12 |
jeromeg | janimo: yep but you have to notice it before ;) | 07:12 |
janimo | jeromeg: do you know any other cases were bugs are caused by our patches? | 07:12 |
jeromeg | janimo : yes but our patches involve a quite big change | 07:12 |
jeromeg | janimo : for example the dialog of quitting session | 07:13 |
jeromeg | was our problem | 07:13 |
jeromeg | but worked like a charm upstream | 07:13 |
janimo | jeromeg: what bug does it cause? (I think I knew one but forgot it) | 07:13 |
jeromeg | janimo : translation; but mr_pouit fixed it | 07:13 |
jeromeg | i got to go now sorry | 07:13 |
janimo | jeromeg: I wouln;d call missing trasnaltion a serios bug | 07:14 |
janimo | jeromeg: so 'ton of patches | 07:14 |
janimo | causng many bugs is a bit of a strecth don't you think :) ? | 07:14 |
jeromeg | yep maybe I exagerated | 07:15 |
janimo | jeromeg: whe you considr that that patch allows swicth user hibernate suspend and better UI in that dialog | 07:15 |
jeromeg | :) | 07:15 |
jeromeg | just before leaving the other point I wanted to give my opinion on | 07:15 |
janimo | similarly gnome-mount is there so we can easily mount non removable drivers and crypted partitions | 07:15 |
jeromeg | and it's linked to what you are saying | 07:15 |
jeromeg | I think that we are moving away from xubuntu | 07:16 |
jeromeg | more and more gnome apps/gnome libs are integrated | 07:16 |
jeromeg | I don't see the point of shipping xubuntu with all ubuntu apps | 07:16 |
jeromeg | maybe it's better now | 07:17 |
jeromeg | but it doesn't help in the inprovement of xfce in general | 07:17 |
janimo | jeromeg: not all ubuntu apps but some which make xubuntu easier to use withjout causing it to be too bloated | 07:17 |
jeromeg | janimo : yep but every release more and more are coming | 07:17 |
jeromeg | for example, was it really essential to ship gnome-screensaver | 07:18 |
jeromeg | ? | 07:18 |
janimo | jeromeg: currenlty cd burnig and archiving are broken for newbie users on xubuntu | 07:18 |
janimo | jeromeg: why do you say that? 'more and more are coming'? | 07:18 |
mr_pouit | the main issue for me is using gnome apps when good xfce apps exist... ok for xfburn, it's broken, but for file-roller? | 07:18 |
janimo | each change is judged on its own, let's not forsee what is not in the future :) | 07:18 |
jeromeg | janimo : on xubuntu-devel mailing list we can see that I think | 07:19 |
janimo | mr_pouit: you said you're not usng xarchiver | 07:19 |
janimo | it is set to defayult here | 07:19 |
janimo | and I have been annoyed by it a few times | 07:19 |
jeromeg | i think we should help upstream fixing bugs, forward them the bugs | 07:19 |
mr_pouit | janimo: yeah, but squeeze seems to be what we seek | 07:19 |
janimo | it's UI (not the looks) but the behaviour sucks | 07:19 |
janimo | mr_pouit: squeeze is not even beta | 07:19 |
janimo | we cannot use things which are not released | 07:20 |
jeromeg | ok got to go | 07:20 |
jeromeg | just said what i wanted to | 07:20 |
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janimo | file-roller is mature has a good ui (DnD, navigating archive contents, open with app) regular release and repsonsive maintainer | 07:20 |
jeromeg | keep up with the good work | 07:20 |
janimo | jeromeg: ok, thak you for coming | 07:20 |
jeromeg | and remember we are xubuntu with an X ;) | 07:21 |
mr_pouit | http://squeeze.xfce.org/ <<< why is it called 'release'? | 07:21 |
jeromeg | ciao | 07:21 |
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mr_pouit | I don't speak of ristretto which is in pre-alpha state :P | 07:21 |
janimo | mr_pouit: anything can be called a release :) | 07:21 |
janimo | I am pretty sure that (since it was not touched since april) is not finished | 07:22 |
janimo | mr_pouit: have you tested squeeze? | 07:22 |
mr_pouit | yeah | 07:22 |
mr_pouit | no issue | 07:22 |
janimo | I just know its author started it with preformance in mind | 07:22 |
janimo | mr_pouit: better that xarchiver? | 07:22 |
Balkhog | I see | 07:23 |
mr_pouit | I prefer, but that's only my opinion | 07:23 |
somerville32 | I thought Xarchiver was a part of the Xfce4 family. | 07:23 |
janimo | somerville32: that is an informal status and has little bearing n the quality of an app | 07:23 |
mr_pouit | xarchiver is sort of dm-independent | 07:24 |
janimo | mr_pouit: well you should have packaged it bu now :) I thiught squeeze is unmaintained or abandoned | 07:24 |
janimo | mr_pouit: why what does squeeze depend on? | 07:24 |
mr_pouit | janimo: it's in my ppa, but it's too late for gutsy | 07:24 |
janimo | mr_pouit: any disadvantage you see in squeeze? | 07:24 |
mr_pouit | some weeks (or months?) ago, its author told us that he didn't consider it as stable/usable | 07:25 |
mr_pouit | when we were speaking of xarchiver on the ML | 07:26 |
janimo | I guess we have to trust him then | 07:26 |
mr_pouit | yeah | 07:26 |
janimo | I'd really like us to start having stabe and mature apps in default | 07:26 |
janimo | we have always been a bit edgy | 07:26 |
janimo | because xfce is for more knowledgable poeople | 07:26 |
janimo | but I do not thyingk that is a very good idea | 07:26 |
janimo | anymore | 07:26 |
janimo | easy to use and stable and fast | 07:27 |
janimo | on a 256M machine ubuntu si crawling | 07:27 |
janimo | but xubuntu is not friendly enough | 07:27 |
janimo | so many ousers in that category are just mixing them anyway | 07:28 |
janimo | besides, with file-roller the performance and memory consumtion arguments brought up by Giuseppe are irrelevant: | 07:28 |
janimo | if xarchiver is better because it uses 40M instead of 120M | 07:29 |
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janimo | in that case the 600K extra mem of libgnome depsa does not matter | 07:29 |
mr_pouit | which program does still depend on libgnome in xubuntu? | 07:29 |
janimo | so, the only thing I have with squeeze it seems inactivem, and it upstream told us it's not ready that's it | 07:30 |
janimo | otherwise I;d have nothing against putting itin gutsy now | 07:30 |
janimo | I always added new apps to xubuntu even in the last weeks since wse cannot break ubuntu/kubuntu so we are sort of unoficially allowed | 07:30 |
janimo | especially since all those changed improved things :) | 07:31 |
mr_pouit | (the upstream author is developing ristretto at the moment, I guess that's why squeeze is inactive now) | 07:31 |
janimo | mr_pouit: currently gnome-screensaver but that will go away when my libgnomekbd patch in upstream gets in the archve | 07:31 |
janimo | mr_pouit: oh, same author | 07:31 |
janimo | ok | 07:31 |
mr_pouit | I thought gnome-screensaver was already patched | 07:31 |
janimo | so a good reaso not to use shiny new apps, they may jost stop being developed | 07:31 |
janimo | mr_pouit: g-s-s itslef yes,but it depends on libgnomekbd | 07:32 |
janimo | which is not yet | 07:32 |
janimo | but noone notices since thoselibs are already on the CD since edgy | 07:32 |
mr_pouit | ok | 07:32 |
janimo | we need them for a11y in the xubuntu live CD | 07:32 |
mr_pouit | is g-s-s started by default now? | 07:33 |
janimo | so CD space has not been an issue (only on the alternate) | 07:33 |
janimo | mr_pouit: if it isn;t it's abug | 07:33 |
janimo | I changed xfce40utils a hwile ago to start it in preference to x-s-s | 07:33 |
mr_pouit | yeah, I saw the changelog | 07:33 |
janimo | this way we get better integration with g-power-manager for thse who istall that | 07:34 |
janimo | mr_pouit: it starts on my laptop by default so at least in one case it works :) | 07:34 |
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mr_pouit | here it still launch x-s-s :/ | 07:34 |
janimo | mr_pouit: as fgor gnonme deps I keep sending patches to upstream, but they are sloow to apply them | 07:34 |
mr_pouit | janimo: yeah, I saw this for nm-applet | 07:35 |
janimo | mr_pouit: xinitrc is a configfile it may not have been touched by the update? | 07:35 |
janimo | mr_pouit: and gucharmap and the rest of the patches as wel were applied weeks afetr I filed them | 07:35 |
janimo | it kind of sucks but at least they apply them evebntually | 07:35 |
janimo | file-roller was an exception, the maintainer applied patches usually within 2 days | 07:36 |
janimo | I got rid of some gnhome api's | 07:36 |
janimo | but some are still left | 07:36 |
janimo | it's less work anyway that starting things from scrath | 07:37 |
janimo | and I wish people would understand that having fun is not always compatible with happy users | 07:37 |
janimo | mr_pouit: so on teh archiver front what do you say about switching to file-roller for beta? | 07:38 |
janimo | oh, and the majority of apps in xubuntu will only be in recommeneded | 07:38 |
janimo | so anyone cand switch them out or remove them | 07:38 |
mr_pouit | yeah, I saw | 07:38 |
janimo | this will cause less trouble for those who are more advanced and want sepcific apps | 07:38 |
mr_pouit | I don't like file-roller very much... what are we gonna do when a stable squeeze is release? | 07:39 |
janimo | mr_pouit: we'll see then | 07:40 |
janimo | squeeze or ristretto or xarchiver | 07:40 |
janimo | waiting for another six month hoping is not a good | 07:40 |
janimo | idea | 07:40 |
janimo | xarhiver was put early in dapper because we had no tool at all | 07:40 |
janimo | and in the hope it will quickly imporve | 07:40 |
janimo | well it is more or less the same as a year ago | 07:40 |
janimo | one advantage of the gnome apps (and gnome vs xfce) is the schedule | 07:41 |
janimo | you know how to plan in advance | 07:41 |
janimo | and not get hurried decision just before release candidate | 07:41 |
mr_pouit | the point I don't like with all this is that we aren't going to create an integrated xfce desktop... only the xfce core with gnome apps picked up here and there | 07:41 |
janimo | mr_pouit: I do not like ngome deps, to be very clear.that's why I keep making those boring and thankless patches :) | 07:42 |
janimo | but I prefer a good UI and default apps which I am not ashamed of | 07:42 |
janimo | mr_pouit: havig a core xfce desktop is not the goal of xubuntu | 07:42 |
janimo | it is juts the best desktpo that is both friendly and not heavy | 07:43 |
janimo | but the apps which are non core are not as good quality as xfce core | 07:43 |
mr_pouit | yeah | 07:43 |
janimo | so it doesnot make sense to cary them just because their names start with x or xf | 07:43 |
janimo | users do not care whether its' gnome xfce ubuntu | 07:44 |
janimo | newbies I mean | 07:44 |
mr_pouit | so we'll gain the 'friendly', but somewhat lose the 'light' and 'integrated' sides | 07:44 |
janimo | they want osmehting to work as they are used tyo in wndows | 07:44 |
janimo | or else they will say linux sucks and wait another year | 07:44 |
janimo | mr_pouit: yes, although I'd like to make clear that only gaion friendly when it is an essential feature | 07:45 |
mr_pouit | yes | 07:45 |
janimo | so we will not put fspot instead of gqview vene though it is 10 times friendlier :) | 07:45 |
janimo | and there's the separate issue of always running and occasioanl apps | 07:45 |
janimo | brasero or file-roller you start once do somehting and close | 07:45 |
janimo | so you only lose memory explicitely | 07:46 |
janimo | soince both handel large amounts of data their code memory is less relevant | 07:46 |
janimo | OTOH getting things by default in the panel or systray is another issue | 07:46 |
janimo | we added trash when it was available | 07:46 |
janimo | it was a firendly feature but ate anothe 3-4 M as any gtk app does | 07:47 |
janimo | this cycle the places menu: it is a stanslone plugin so it too consumes a few megs | 07:47 |
janimo | and so on | 07:47 |
janimo | printer applet ditto | 07:47 |
janimo | lucklily all thise can be disabled and are not in the hard depends of the desktop | 07:47 |
somerville32 | IS the trash plugin external or internal? | 07:47 |
janimo | somerville32: extrenal | 07:48 |
janimo | that's why it takes up extra ram | 07:48 |
janimo | update-notifier is the most requested app we do not have | 07:48 |
somerville32 | Personally I just install the ubuntu package | 07:48 |
mr_pouit | Toadstool was working on it | 07:48 |
janimo | that if we add it, again will take up !3m | 07:48 |
janimo | mr_pouit: even if he gets rid of libgnome | 07:49 |
janimo | it will take up 3 megs instead of 4 | 07:49 |
janimo | for example | 07:49 |
janimo | the numbers are not exact I got different measures as different time so they are not to be 100% trusted | 07:49 |
janimo | network manager ditto | 07:49 |
janimo | it would be nice to have easy wifi out of the box | 07:50 |
somerville32 | Why aren't developers using the ability to make their plugins internal? I thought that was recommended to cut down on unnecessary memory consumption. | 07:50 |
janimo | that too consumes | 07:50 |
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janimo | somerville32: internal plugins have the disadvantage that 1) if they crash the whole panel crashes | 07:50 |
janimo | 2) when their UI is in use the other panel UI is blocked | 07:51 |
janimo | so if you pop up a context menu on an internal panel plugin the rest of the panel (clock, sys monitors) will not update | 07:51 |
janimo | so they had their reasons for making plugins external | 07:51 |
somerville32 | What happened to threading? | 07:52 |
janimo | I was thinking that making soem of the externals into internal would be good for memory but it may not be good for other | 07:52 |
janimo | somerville32: I think you can only have one thread that does UI | 07:52 |
janimo | somerville32: but yes this should be simpler and more effective (I have plans but usually nothing comes out of them) | 07:53 |
janimo | so back to gnome apps | 07:53 |
janimo | what do we do for gutsy? | 07:53 |
janimo | increase the default mem consumption of the default desktop? | 07:54 |
janimo | on the liveCD we alreay need 256 if I am not mistaken | 07:54 |
janimo | if we are past 128 or even 196 anyway we may as well use the extra till 256 if we do not shoot over it | 07:54 |
janimo | that would really be creepy for xubuntu | 07:55 |
somerville32 | I had to go buy ancient ram just so that I could continue to run Xubuntu | 07:55 |
janimo | somerville32: how much? | 07:58 |
janimo | ram I mean | 07:58 |
somerville32 | I'm at 256mb | 07:58 |
somerville32 | I was at 128mb | 07:58 |
janimo | needd for liveCD or installed as well? | 07:59 |
somerville32 | For LiveCd... | 07:59 |
janimo | aha | 07:59 |
somerville32 | on. | 07:59 |
somerville32 | *no. | 07:59 |
somerville32 | This is for running it | 07:59 |
janimo | I don;t know how it managed to work in 128 for dapper | 08:00 |
somerville32 | I installed dapper with 256mb | 08:00 |
janimo | teh ubuntu base system was smaller too back then | 08:00 |
mr_pouit | janimo: about g-s-s, xfce4-mcs-plugins needs to be patched imo: #define SCREENSAVER_EXE "xscreensaver-demo", we should replace it with gnome-screensaver-preferences maybe? | 08:00 |
janimo | mr_pouit: so do you have a strong opinion agains file-roller? | 08:00 |
janimo | mr_pouit: good catch, we have to | 08:01 |
mr_pouit | janimo: strong, no, I'am not very enthusiastic, that's all | 08:01 |
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vinze | Hey | 08:01 |
janimo | mr_pouit: I am not enthusiastic either | 08:01 |
janimo | I just think that its advantages outweigh the fact that is uses libgnome | 08:02 |
janimo | and I plan to drop that for gnome 2.22 | 08:02 |
janimo | what about brasero? this has much more and weired deps | 08:02 |
janimo | gstreamer is already in with pidgin AFAIK | 08:03 |
janimo | and firefox 3.0 is using libgnome :( | 08:03 |
vinze | Really? | 08:03 |
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vinze | As in: the multi-platform Firefox? | 08:03 |
janimo | yes, for session management | 08:03 |
vinze | Wow... | 08:03 |
janimo | vinze: as the messy multiplatform firefox | 08:04 |
vinze | Yeah, true | 08:04 |
janimo | well platform means OS/ARCH not desktop enviroments | 08:04 |
vinze | Yeah of course | 08:04 |
somerville32 | Ok | 08:07 |
janimo | any thoughts on the gnome apps issue, cody, vincent? | 08:09 |
vinze | I'm in favour of adding them | 08:09 |
vinze | Well, some of them only, obviously ;-) | 08:09 |
janimo | since polls proved to be a failure (expect we sa w update notifier is most requested) | 08:09 |
janimo | we could add some for beta and see the reactions | 08:10 |
janimo | how it changes liveCD usability, and whether teh comment will be mostly posotive or negative | 08:10 |
janimo | we have time after beta tpo reconsider or undo some of the changes if they prove unpopular or buggy | 08:11 |
somerville32 | Does our current testing process just involve making sure it loads/installs or are there post-install tests utilized by the testers. | 08:11 |
somerville32 | I know I started to develop some before Jim took over | 08:11 |
janimo | somerville32: I know nothing about our test porcess | 08:11 |
vinze | Would be interesting, but perhaps it's a bit late in the process to change it again after the beta... | 08:11 |
janimo | vinze: well the changes will be 'drop' and have nothing (brasero, n-m, upadte notifier) | 08:12 |
janimo | so it;s not code change that is intrusive | 08:12 |
janimo | they do these kind of reversion all the time | 08:12 |
janimo | in ubuntu | 08:12 |
vinze | OK, then I'd say: go for it :P | 08:12 |
janimo | that's why it;'s a beta to see if it is worth havuing | 08:12 |
vinze | There was this interesting comment on a Dutch site | 08:13 |
janimo | although I'd like to wait till we have the n-m patch to drop gnome deps accepted | 08:13 |
vinze | Wait, I'll translate it... | 08:13 |
somerville32 | update-notifier is just a background process that checks to see if upgrades are available and then uses the notification-daemon (which we already ship) to notify the user, right? | 08:13 |
janimo | or else we cannot say that we want it in xubuntu if it;s already there | 08:13 |
janimo | somerville32: u-n is a systray app in C and gnome libs | 08:13 |
janimo | it does more that notifications | 08:14 |
janimo | starts upadtemanager, restarts the session and maybe other things too | 08:14 |
somerville32 | I think u-n is something we can do for sure for Hardy | 08:16 |
somerville32 | Without the gnome apps | 08:16 |
mr_pouit | yeah | 08:16 |
janimo | somerville32: I hope we do it now for gutsy | 08:16 |
janimo | somerville32: and not a reimplementation is what you mean I hope | 08:16 |
vinze | Here is that Dutch comment: | 08:17 |
vinze | "The question of whether Xfce ought to aim at speed or features is an easy one to me: features. The reason why is that Xfce is profiling itself as a Desktop Environment. That means it should come with worthy applications. Seeing that Xfce also uses GTK it's not unlogical that the discussion gets going about using Gnome applications. | 08:17 |
vinze | Furthermore, Xfce should realize that the definition of "old computer" is changing. Here, too, time doesn't stop. Of course there are still people on a PIII with little memory, but I think that the PIV can now be seen as basic computer. Those are now about 5 years old and are perfectly capable of running Gnome or KDE. Xfce should not be a problem at all." | 08:17 |
janimo | vinze: thanks for translating | 08:18 |
vinze | np | 08:18 |
janimo | there are still old computers | 08:18 |
janimo | thse which were running xubuntu last year are not magically getting upgraded | 08:18 |
vinze | Yeah I think we could go a bit older, but some people have really extreme systems | 08:18 |
janimo | but we should consider usabiliy (not necessarily feature) | 08:18 |
somerville32 | I think it would be a good idea to set hard targets for performance | 08:19 |
janimo | I do not mind if we don;t have all the features of gnome | 08:19 |
vinze | somerville32, yeah, I agree | 08:19 |
janimo | but the ones we have I expect to work well | 08:19 |
somerville32 | I agree. | 08:19 |
vinze | janimo, exactly | 08:19 |
janimo | hence am pro file-roller but against nautilus with all its nice vfs features | 08:19 |
vinze | file-roller is really slow though | 08:20 |
janimo | whatever we have it should not surpise or disappoint the user | 08:20 |
vinze | But Nautilus especially is a no-go IMHO | 08:20 |
janimo | and xfbunr and xarchiver have bith done that | 08:20 |
janimo | vinze: yes, I was jut making a comparison | 08:20 |
janimo | obviously we do not put nautius in | 08:20 |
vinze | To be honest, I haven't really heard many complaints about xarchiver except from you Jani | 08:20 |
janimo | vinze: do you know others using xubuntu/xarchiver? | 08:21 |
mr_pouit | <offtopic> janimo: I have patched xfce4-mcs-plugin to launch g-ss, it works fine, except the help button (I guess it tries to start gnome-help). </offtopic> | 08:21 |
janimo | besides myself I heard complaint from a person who used my computer (windows user) | 08:21 |
janimo | was baffled why she cannot open the files inside the archyive | 08:21 |
vinze | janimo, no but I do listen quite a lot to Xubuntu users | 08:21 |
vinze | But I have indeed not heard from users of whom I know are used to other archivers | 08:22 |
janimo | mr_pouit: right it tries to laucnh it (it should pop up an error dialog) | 08:22 |
janimo | vinze: they have to be novice users | 08:22 |
janimo | as with ubuntu our target is novice users | 08:22 |
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janimo | but whoi happen to have underpowered (by todays standards) machines | 08:22 |
vinze | OK, then I think it would be OK to switch it for now, but we should definitely reconsider it when a new version arrives (for the then-next release of Xubuntu) | 08:23 |
vinze | But I'm glad that we actually have a target | 08:23 |
vinze | If our target is "novice users" we should definitely be adding the Gnome-libs for unsatisfactory apps | 08:23 |
janimo | vinze: we should always consider alternatives and pick the best (according various criteria) | 08:23 |
vinze | janimo, ok | 08:23 |
janimo | expert users can install xubuntu and then tweak it as they wish | 08:24 |
janimo | that has always been true | 08:24 |
janimo | the reason we dod not say novice users so far is beacuse of lack of features | 08:24 |
janimo | but those are slowly arriving (places menu, printing) | 08:24 |
vinze | Yeah but I think Xubuntu has now matured to a level where we come quite close | 08:24 |
janimo | indeed | 08:25 |
janimo | I think adding gnome apps if they do not noticably degrade performance is ok | 08:25 |
vinze | I realized it just this afternoon when I was notified of updates, I would click "Install" and after a while I got the notification that I had to reboot my computer (at the time I wished) | 08:25 |
janimo | xfec core and abi+gnuneric are fixed | 08:25 |
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janimo | but all else is fair game I say | 08:25 |
vinze | I agree | 08:26 |
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janimo | vinze: so you do use update-notifier right? | 08:26 |
vinze | Yeah | 08:26 |
vinze | But I've added quite some Gnome and even Qt libs because I like experimenting with apps | 08:27 |
vinze | But update-notifier is always the first thing I add | 08:27 |
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janimo | ok, anything else do discuss | 08:28 |
janimo | ? | 08:28 |
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vinze | Oh that was it already... :S | 08:29 |
mr_pouit | some things still to do | 08:29 |
mr_pouit | the 'About Xfce' menu icon | 08:29 |
mr_pouit | iirc, that's the only one missing | 08:29 |
vinze | Did Jmak finalize his AA-icon already? | 08:30 |
mr_pouit | yes | 08:30 |
vinze | Cool | 08:30 |
vinze | xfce4-taskmanager doesn't have an icon with me, is that fixed already? | 08:30 |
janimo | mr_pouit: oh yes the hel picon | 08:30 |
mr_pouit | vinze: xfce4-taskmanager has been replaced with gnome-system-monitor | 08:31 |
janimo | mr_pouit: we talked on the list but the thread dies: what about help on the desktop? | 08:31 |
vinze | Oh yeah, that's true | 08:31 |
janimo | we have the icons in the desktop menu | 08:31 |
janimo | what do you think of a launcher woth xfhelp4 and a nice icon in the top panel just as in ubuntu? | 08:32 |
janimo | it laucnhes the browser with the xubuntu page | 08:32 |
vinze | janimo, On the panel or on the desktop? | 08:33 |
janimo | panel | 08:33 |
vinze | Panel would be fine IMO | 08:33 |
janimo | vinze: we keep the desktop clean | 08:33 |
vinze | Yeah that's one of the most appreciated points across reviews ;) | 08:33 |
mr_pouit | ok, let's add it then | 08:34 |
mr_pouit | something else about desktop layout: why do we use 2 panels? | 08:35 |
janimo | mr_pouit: :) | 08:36 |
janimo | mr_pouit: that's what upstream uses and ubuntu as well | 08:36 |
janimo | we have quite a few apps and laucnhers | 08:36 |
janimo | and they would be crowded on one panel | 08:36 |
janimo | this way all 4 corners of the screen which are fats to access with the mouse are useful | 08:37 |
somerville32 | Alright, I have to run but it was nice chatting with you all again. Hopefully things will be a bit more settled for me during the next release cycle and I'll be able to assist with packaging again. | 08:37 |
mr_pouit | I thought upstream used only one panel | 08:37 |
janimo | s/fats/fast/ | 08:37 |
vinze | By somerville32 | 08:37 |
janimo | mr_pouit: hmm. oh, you're right | 08:37 |
janimo | mr_pouit: one panel at the middle bottom | 08:37 |
janimo | using xubuntu for so long I forgot how the default looked like :) | 08:37 |
vinze | mr_pouit, janimo, I think it also brings a clear separation between status-display-stuff (bottom panel) and action buttons (top panel) | 08:37 |
janimo | ok, so then it's only ubuntu copying | 08:37 |
vinze | janimo, same here ;-) | 08:37 |
janimo | anyway Jasper said upstream layout is historical and said the xubuntu one is ok | 08:38 |
vinze | Yeah it was modelled after Mac OS's one I believe | 08:38 |
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janimo | I am not sure what it was modeled after but I trust them on being usable by novices | 08:39 |
mr_pouit | there is also this proposition: http://www.xfce.org/images/about/screenshots/4.4-1.png | 08:40 |
vinze | I don't really see the use of having a non-full-width panel... | 08:40 |
vinze | Windows won't occupy that space, and it's easy to click so it would be a shame not to use it | 08:41 |
mr_pouit | I use a single non-full-width panel, but with the auto-hide function | 08:41 |
mr_pouit | but that's probably to complicated for novice users | 08:41 |
vinze | But auto-hide is very confusing for new users I think | 08:41 |
vinze | ;-) | 08:41 |
janimo | exaclty | 08:42 |
janimo | we aim for ease of use | 08:42 |
vinze | WTF? | 08:42 |
janimo | advanced users will fill up their panels anyway with all kinds of plugins and rearrange them vertically or whatever | 08:42 |
vinze | I just started downloading Tribe 5 and it's already at 42%! | 08:42 |
vinze | 53%... | 08:44 |
mr_pouit | ok, another question: is tango icon theme ok? | 08:44 |
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mr_pouit | jmak proposed to use NuoveXT2 | 08:45 |
janimo | mr_pouit: I don't know what that looks like | 08:45 |
vinze | Are there any screenshots anywhere? | 08:45 |
janimo | is it packaged? | 08:45 |
vinze | 62%... :P | 08:45 |
janimo | I am ok with testing with alreday packaged artwork | 08:45 |
janimo | otherwise it is probbaly too much work at this point | 08:46 |
mr_pouit | http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/nuoveXT+2?content=56625 | 08:46 |
mr_pouit | and unfortunately it's not packaged | 08:46 |
janimo | I say go with what we have now | 08:46 |
vinze | It does look very nice | 08:46 |
janimo | tango icons look god | 08:47 |
janimo | when that new one is packaged it can be evaluated | 08:47 |
vinze | Yeah, true, and they're complete | 08:47 |
janimo | but until then it's an 'expert' thing | 08:47 |
vinze | Oh and they're not SVG I see | 08:47 |
mr_pouit | and lots of dups | 08:49 |
mr_pouit | *duplicates | 08:49 |
mr_pouit | the author doesn't use any symlink | 08:49 |
vinze | OK, so any more to discuss? | 08:50 |
mr_pouit | it seems not | 08:51 |
janimo | so what is the decision: | 08:53 |
janimo | add file-roller to beta | 08:53 |
vinze | +1 | 08:53 |
janimo | add update notifier to beta | 08:53 |
mr_pouit | ok | 08:53 |
vinze | +1 | 08:53 |
janimo | network manager? | 08:53 |
vinze | +1 | 08:53 |
vinze | Oh wait | 08:53 |
vinze | Emm... | 08:53 |
janimo | with these two I'd like to get the libgnomes dropeed first | 08:53 |
janimo | even if we want u-n in | 08:53 |
vinze | Are you quite sure they *will* get dropped before Gutsy is released? | 08:54 |
janimo | vinze: no Iam not | 08:54 |
vinze | Hmm... | 08:54 |
vinze | They would be really nice to have | 08:54 |
mr_pouit | janimo: did asac reply? | 08:54 |
janimo | mr_pouit: nope | 08:54 |
mr_pouit | :/ | 08:54 |
janimo | pinged him on ircx as well but was not around | 08:54 |
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mr_pouit | I'll update x-d-s to add the help launcher to the panel | 08:57 |
janimo | mr_pouit: ok, thanks | 08:58 |
janimo | mr_pouit: we may need an icon, if there's none for xfhelp feel free to take the one form gnome (yelp) :) | 08:58 |
mr_pouit | what is xfhelp4 supposed to launch? | 08:59 |
mr_pouit | the xubuntu desktop guide or the xfce4 help? | 08:59 |
janimo | xfbrowser4 | 09:01 |
janimo | it is very indirect :) | 09:01 |
janimo | and that in turn laucnhes x-ww-browser I think | 09:01 |
janimo | but am not sure | 09:01 |
janimo | anyway you can just hardcode to x-www-browser command if xfhelp4 is too convoluted | 09:01 |
janimo | so it does not take too much time laucnhing | 09:02 |
janimo | or even firefox direcly but that will berak if poeple switch browsers and remove ff | 09:02 |
mr_pouit | the xfce4 doc isn't available in lots of language | 09:03 |
mr_pouit | +s | 09:03 |
mr_pouit | the french one is still for xfce 4.2 | 09:03 |
mr_pouit | :/ | 09:03 |
mr_pouit | is this really a good idea? | 09:04 |
janimo | mr_pouit: no, we should laucnh the xubuntu doc in firefox | 09:04 |
janimo | teh xfce docs are indeed poor we may even want to hide them from the desktop menu | 09:04 |
vinze | Yeah I'd do that | 09:04 |
janimo | so the xubuntu desktop guide is what we want to show | 09:04 |
mr_pouit | ok | 09:05 |
mr_pouit | the desktop guide is launched by the 'Help' entry in the menu btw | 09:05 |
janimo | right, we can keep that then | 09:05 |
janimo | I thougt it was the xfce help | 09:05 |
janimo | mr_pouit: what about brasero? | 09:08 |
janimo | that is not as much for novices as an archiver | 09:08 |
janimo | so probably not as high prio | 09:08 |
janimo | but would be nice imo | 09:09 |
mr_pouit | no new bug was reported since I uploaded the 0.6.1 bugfix release | 09:09 |
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janimo | mr_pouit: didi that close bugs in LP? | 09:11 |
mr_pouit | no, because many people do not come back | 09:12 |
mr_pouit | or they don't run gutsy, so they can't test | 09:12 |
janimo | ok | 09:13 |
janimo | do you think it should be in xubuntu default? | 09:13 |
janimo | or rather do you think we shoukld have a cd burner? | 09:13 |
janimo | becasue if we do we do not have other choice but brasero | 09:13 |
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mr_pouit | brasero is a good choice, it works fine | 09:14 |
janimo | ok | 09:15 |
janimo | so we add it | 09:15 |
vinze | Brasero still is being developed? | 09:15 |
janimo | vinze: yes | 09:15 |
vinze | It looks good | 09:16 |
janimo | it sure does | 09:16 |
mr_pouit | the 7.0 release is under development | 09:16 |
vinze | (Not that I have any experience with CD burning applications) | 09:16 |
mr_pouit | with plugins support | 09:16 |
vinze | But whoa, the dependencies... | 09:16 |
janimo | I have used it recently although on ly for iso writing | 09:16 |
janimo | I do not know how it's compilation window is working | 09:16 |
janimo | indeed the depends are crazy | 09:16 |
vinze | I've got this feeling that that Xubuntu+gnome apps will be a huge success... :P | 09:17 |
mr_pouit | we can defer for hardy | 09:17 |
janimo | mr_pouit: I do not think they'll drop the depends until then | 09:18 |
janimo | mr_pouit: you think there will be another app? | 09:18 |
mr_pouit | no ^^ | 09:18 |
janimo | that would be suboptimal anyway | 09:18 |
janimo | the problem with gtk cd burners is that there are too many an non finished | 09:18 |
mr_pouit | gnomebaker, graveman, xfburn... | 09:19 |
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mr_pouit | ok, I guess there is no more to discuss | 09:21 |
vinze | Good night then :) | 09:22 |
janimo | ok, good night | 09:22 |
mr_pouit | good night | 09:22 |
janimo | I'll write a summary to the list | 09:22 |
mr_pouit | janimo: do you update the seeds? | 09:22 |
vinze | Thanks | 09:22 |
janimo | mr_pouit: yes with file-roller | 09:23 |
janimo | mr_pouit:but brasero needs to be in main if we ship it | 09:23 |
mr_pouit | yes | 09:23 |
janimo | and with update notifier I'll wait a bit hoping it will be patched | 09:23 |
janimo | let's see what Jeremie does | 09:23 |
mr_pouit | ok | 09:24 |
mr_pouit | and what are we going to do with xarchiver? | 09:24 |
janimo | mr_pouit: put it in universe | 09:25 |
janimo | and for hardy we'll look again at the archiver apps | 09:25 |
mr_pouit | ok | 09:25 |
janimo | but early in the ccyle | 09:25 |
janimo | anyone care to write a MIR for brasero? :) | 09:25 |
mr_pouit | let's ask on the list ;P | 09:26 |
mr_pouit | that would be great if other people could participate | 09:26 |
janimo | I agree :) | 09:26 |
vinze | What's an MIR? | 09:27 |
mr_pouit | main inclusion request | 09:27 |
vinze | Oh :P | 09:27 |
vinze | OK, I'm off, bye | 09:29 |
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Sep 19:00 UTC: Screencast Team | 11 Sep 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Canonical Desktop Team | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | ||
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sfair | Seveas: ping | 10:26 |
Seveas | sfair, pang | 10:28 |
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sfair | Seveas: could you change my cloak, please? | 10:29 |
Seveas | sfair, done | 10:31 |
sfair | Seveas: thanks a lot | 10:32 |
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